Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to another episode of Cole Grid. I'm Ray
Carr and with me always is Fetch Fitch. How are
you tonight.
Speaker 5: I'm doing well, Ray, a little tired from the past week,
but I'm rejuvenated because we're doing one of our well
known occasional crossover episodes with our friends from Mind Over murdering. Boy,
do they have some good news tonight to share and
say good but it's advancing news of things that they've
been talking about for a long time. Why don't you
introduce them right?
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Last month we sat in this studio with Bill
Thomas and Christin Dilly to build a victimology profile for
Kathy Thomas and Becky Dowski. We talked about the who
of the victims, hoping to find a way towards the killer. Today,
the who has a name, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. For third,
the Colonial Parkway murders held a shadow over Virginia. Now,
thanks to advanced DNA testing, the FBI has confirmed that Wilmer,
a local fisherman who died in twenty seventeen, is the
man responsible for the nineteen eighty six murders of Kathy
and Becky, as well as several other cases. Today, as
Jim said, we're joined by our good friends Bill and
Kristen from the podcast Mind Over Murder. The Bureau finally
open their books. Bill tell us what that first meeting
was like.
Speaker 2: Well, it's still kind of settling in ray and fits.
It's been a couple of weeks, but we got a
phone call about three weeks ago now asking us if
members of the Thomas Sandowski families could travel to Norfolk, Virginia,
where the FBI office is located. It's actually in Chesapeake,
which is right next door to Norfolk, to me to
get an update on Kathy and Becky's case. They as usual,
played their cards very close to the best, but they
asked if if I could get down there and any
of my siblings or other family members that wanted to
attend were also invited, and I explained to the FBI
that my older brother had just died a couple of
months ago, so he wasn't going to be able to attend,
and my younger brother, Jack was in the hospital awaiting
some heart surgery, so he was not going to be
able to attend. So it ended up being just myself
and then Bob Dowski, who is the older brother of
Becky Dowski, my sister's girlfriend, and the two women my sister,
Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski were killed together in October
nineteen eighty six, So this was designed as an update
and no information I was provided in advance, so we
kind of went in cold in terms of what they
were going to share with us.
Speaker 5: Did I hear right? Bill? Was there a bureau plane involved?
Speaker 2: They offered to fly us in no FBI plane, but
they said they would pay for us to fly down
to Norfolk, and they put us up for the night
prior to the meeting. So we flew down there. I
guess it's about three weeks ago now. I flew down
there on a Monday and met on Tuesday morning.
Speaker 5: You were probably a restless sleep of night for you.
I mean you're letting a lot of wrestless sleeps and
night nights of sleep for you going back to nineteen
eighty six. Tell us what that was like and when
you first walked in the office.
Speaker 2: Well, the whole thing is is just kind of it's
a very strange experience. Yeah, very much restless night's sleep
the night before in the hotel, and we went in
and we got there for eight thirty in the morning,
went through a very strict security protocol. They insisted that
we not bring in any cell phones, iPads, anything like that,
no recording devices. And quite frankly, I was so in
a frazzle with all of their very strict rules that
I didn't even dare bring in a piece of paper.
I just went in, you know, completely bare handed, and
they put all your electronic devices in a locker and
then send you in. I realized afterward. They were timing
this right to the minute. They kept us waiting, chatting
with one of the assistant special agents in charge for
fifteen minutes or more, and then I realized later they
were actually timing it, so they brought us in exactly
at nine am. And one of the reasons for that
was they made a decision which I disagree with, to
drop a press release at nine am without our knowledge.
They told us about it after it had gone out, which, unfortunately,
right off the bat, created a problem for the families
in that we were not given an opportunity to contribute
to the press release. There was no press conference, and unfortunately,
because they did what they did, our families who were
waiting to hear from us. Bob and myself for the
Dawski and Thomas families, didn't learn about what had happened
to Kathy and Becky from us. They found out about
it via the World Wide Web because the minute the
press release went out, their phone started ringing and people said,
have you've seen the news? Kathy and Becky were killed
by Alan Wade Wilmer, which is a name we were
very familiar with. But it's an unfortunate way to start
off a meeting, and it really threw the two of
us off.
Speaker 4: I do too. Did Bill you know what that said?
Did they tell you why they did that?
Speaker 2: Did you ask me?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: I was very challenging. As you know, my relationship with
the FBI is a very direct one. I looked at
the sac across the table, and after she had said
some very important things, the first few sentences out of
the SAC's mouth were I'm going to cut to the
chase here or something like that. Not it said in
a disrespectful way. She said, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is
responsible for the deaths of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski.
And you know as we as we the first few
minutes of the of the meeting went along. They were
about seven agents and staff on their side of the table,
Bob Dowski and I on our side of the table.
I said, are you not having a press conference? And
she said no, And I said you need I may
even point I said you need to have a press conference.
I can't believe you're not having a press conference. The
Virginia State Police same suspect Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. They've
had two press conferences in the last two years announcing
various solves in the Colonial Parkway murders and other related cases.
They've already had two live press conferences. You're telling me
you're not having a press conference. And I said to
her directly, you need to take questions live on camera
to answer the many, many questions press media and the
families have. But they just looked at me blankly like, no,
we're not going to do that. And they didn't even
really respond to my kind of challenge in any meaningful way.
Clearly don't want to hear it. And they and frankly,
clearly they don't want to hear from me.
Speaker 5: So I'm a little confused. They went out to the media,
but just through a standard FBI press release, not a
press conference.
Speaker 2: Absolutely correct, And we have no opportunity unlike the Virginia
State Police press conferences which have happened twice in the
last two years as they've made advances in other cases
as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. The families were
allowed to participate in those press conferences, were allowed to
contribute statements, you know, kind of indicating how they'd like
their loved ones to be remembered. We were not afforded
that opportunity. We were not afforded any opportunity to speak
live to the press. No press were invited. It was very,
very weird. But this is unfortunately fairly typical of the
way the families have been treated in the Colonial Parkway murders,
specifically by the FBI. The Virginia State Police have actually
been much more empathetic and respectful. Quite frankly, it's very,
very frustrating, and even as we speak now, I asked
for a follow up discussion and it's been nearly two
and they haven't even responded to my inquiry as to
when can we expect to be able to ask follow
up questions. Interestingly, Bob Dwski, my colleague from the Dawski family,
was afforded that opportunity and spent two hours on the
phone with the FBI a few days after our meeting,
and they've refused to afford me the same courtesy. You
think it's personal, well, I'll be frank as always, Ray,
I have been very critical of FBI Norfolk and the
way they've handled this case. Have felt the need Remember
it's been thirty nine years since Kathy and Becky were murdered,
and there have been a lot of problems in this case,
and I have been forced, in my opinion, to point
out the problems and to call out their foot dragging.
So I don't know, I mean, is it personal. I
have no way of knowing, but they sure seem to
be going out of their way to make sure that
I don't get answers to any of the many questions
I have, and they've afforded me no opportunity they need
to speak, and it's very frustrating to just be blocked
at every opportunity. Even as we speak today, I'm now
closing in. It'll be two weeks in a couple of
days since I asked for a follow up meeting, and
it's been more than two weeks since Bob Dowski already
had a follow up. So we're not getting equal treatment,
that's for sure.
Speaker 5: Well, when we ended our crossover podcast was November or
December that we did it December when some new information
came in and Bill, quite frankly at the end, we
gave you some room, and you were very critical of
our former agency. But if they deserve it, they deserve it,
and we didn't stop you. If you recall, it's been great.
I thought somehow we come on today finally, after a
few misstarts doing this, that all would be forgiven because
you have the news you wanted to hear. It's not
good news, but you at some level of closure, of course,
Yet why the hell is the Bureau just playing this
so obtrusive to you in terms of where you're going.
And I don't whether it's personal, I don't know things
you said in the past, I don't know, But this
is they could have made this such a positive moment,
is my point. Everything behind that, you know, forget.
Speaker 4: It, Jim, I agree, and in a moment where everybody
healed at the same time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and hey, press conference, this is good news. We
solve the case. Here are the family members media ask
away or family members ask us in front of the media,
however you want to do it. If they could answer
the questions, they could if they didn't, but at least
they'd be out there in public. This wasn't the bureau
that I remembered from eighteen some years ago. But be
that as it may. I but I suppose perhaps we
can focus on the news that you did learn and
the closure, if that's the right word. Only you can
tell me whether it's tell us whether it's closure or not.
But if the thirty nine years, but yeah, I'm sorry.
I maybe some folks will hear this and they'll they'll
give another chance. I don't know, but I guess they
didn't do it last time in December when we were
all together giving you another chance. So I don't know
what to make of this. They were nice to call you,
They offered to fly you down put you up, and
they didn't even have to do that. I suppose they
could have told you on the phone, but they did
this part, but the ball was dropped somewhere from communication deplotments.
Speaker 4: Let's move in a direction and maybe you can answer this,
Bill d or Kristen. What was the evidence that they
told you and the investigative techniques that they used that
helped solve this case. Well, there's a couple of things,
and there is good news in the mix here Ray
and fits, and I'm sorry that we end up with
this unnecessary conflict.
Speaker 2: They didn't share a lot of information with us, which
has been our experience over all these years. But here's
what they did say. I asked them directly which outside
lab did the DNA work, and they answered that question
in a straightforward manager, which I really appreciate. All I
want to do is ask questions and get answers and
I can move on. So the answer was DNA Labs
International out of Florida, who were a highly respected lab,
and they did the outside work. NA Labs International, by
the way, is the lab that's done all of the
other lab work in the Virginia State Police cases. They
used a SAKE grant and they arranged this through the
Virginia State Police because of whatever the technicalities are regarding,
the FEDS cannot use a sexual assault Kit Initiative grant,
but the Virginia State Police can. That's my understanding. So
DNA Labs International did the work. They said that they
retested evidence in Kathy and Becky's case. Specifically, they were
looking at the interior my sister Kathy's nineteen eighty Honda
Civic and the clothing that they were wearing at the
time of their murder. And they said that evan that
they tested previously was retested. And of course, as we
all know and we're seeing this and this is exciting
news that the tests are getting so much more refined
that you're able to find evidence that you couldn't find
as recently as five years ago, So apparently around twenty eleven,
I think it was, they had tested Kathy and Becky's
clothing and had not found any evidence that would tie
into a particular suspect. They went back and retested the evidence,
and what they told us was that they found Wilmer's
DNA on Becky's bra, which she would have been wearing
under a T shirt and a kind of a sporty windbreaker.
Both women were big athletes, and that the DNA was
found on Becky's bra, which obviously, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior
does not belong inside Kathy and Becky's car. His DNA
does not belong on her bra. We asked what type
of DNA it was. They refused to answer the question,
and we just don't understand, you know, it was it semen,
was it saliva? Was it touch DNA?
Speaker 5: What was it?
Speaker 2: I don't think these are unreasonable questions, but they refuse
to answer. There's no trial coming up, so that's what
I said.
Speaker 5: Which I would understand them holding back a bit if
there was a subsequent trial. So anyway, right, I did
a rerunt.
Speaker 2: Well, and as Kristin can chime in, here there's the possibility,
which we acknowledge, that there could be accomplices, and some
of these accomplices might still be alive. But I said
over the table, I don't understand why you're refusing to
answer these questions. Exactly as you said, Jim. The no
one's going to trial. Wilmer's been dead since twenty seventeen.
We're kind of left scratching our heads. You know, Kristin,
you've been an observer for a long time here in
this case with Bill, and I want to ask, how
does it feel with you to finally see the p
fit together.
Speaker 6: You know, I have lived with this case because I'm
a local, have lived with this case since I was
old enough to be aware of this case, and I
have lived closely with the case as Bill's podcast partner
for the last ten years. And it was so unbelievably
fulfilling to see this happen because I have prayed for
this day for Bill since we started working together. I mean,
I found myself in tears because this is so this
is what Bill has wanted, this is what he has
worked for our entire partnership, and to know that finally
Bill and Bob and everybody who loves the two women
were going to get the answers, maybe not full answers,
maybe not satisfactory answers, but that they finally had answers.
So it was a strange mix of being joyful because
finally there are answers, but also very sad as well,
because now we know that the person that we've been
discussing in whose picture we've been looking at for the
last two years, is the last person that Katheen Becky
saw and I hate knowing that for them, But I
am so glad that we have answers because I am
hoping that it's a weight off of my partner's mind
and spirit.
Speaker 2: Well, and thank you, Kristin, and a lot of what
you said made me smile. And let's be clear, I
cannot thank the FBI and Virginia State Police and DNA
Labs International and the entire team enough for this incredible work.
And knowing is much better than not knowing, and so
there is some relief. As you all know, I'm not
terribly comfortable with closure. I said to one of the
other families who's part of the Colonial Parkway murders is
not yet solved. I did say to one of them,
by the way, when you get this news. And I'm
very optimistic and I know Kristin is too, that we're
going to see more solves in the Colonial Parkway murders,
and we both believe that Wilmer will be tied into
other unsolved thomicides and sexual assaults. But I said, it
isn't going to change your life, the knowing part. Am
I feeling better about the situation, absolutely, And do I
appreciate the work that's gone into this and the incredible
dedication of the FBI and Virginia State Police teams. Absolutely,
I just I wish we could handle things in a
way where I know the FBI struggles because they think
they're in the business of asking questions, not answering questions.
But families like mine deserve answers, and I don't think
what we're asking for is unreasonable and it's very unfortunate.
I feel like we're once again getting the straight arm
from the Bureau, and that doesn't feel good at all.
Speaker 4: You know, I kind of agree with you, But it
wasn't really the Bureau that solved this as much as
it was the forensic breakthroughs and the ability for science
to move forward to a point where they could do
those t that we're going to be helpful in solving
this case. Without that, we still be talking about, you know,
the profile of the individual that did this, the victimology
of the victims, and going to that. How do you
think the things Jim and I said and others that
you have talked about. Talked to both you and Chris
about the profile we kind of build around who may
have done this without knowing the name. How do you
feel that those pieces fit in? Do they fit in
better now? Does it seem like we were on target
or were we off base?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 2: I think you were on target, and both Kristin and
I are very intensely curious if we can find a
way to match up Wilmer's profile and his DNA with
other unsolved murders. We've got two more double homicides in
the Colonial Parkway murders. The disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra
Haley that's incident number three in the Colonial Parkway Murder series,
and then the murder of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer,
which is incident number four in the Colonial Parkway Murders.
As well as other murders that took place. Kristin had
coined this phrase colonial Parkway murders adjacent cases. We didn't
mean that in a disrespectful way, just we were just
looking at the four double homicides that are considered the
Colonial Parkway murders, and then there's these other unsolved murders
of individuals that were happening at the same time, and
now we've seen that some of those are also clearly Wilmer.
We're up to six now, but I think your profile
was pretty spot on. Kristin said before we'd started this
afternoon that she'd love to see this case reprofiled with
a focus on Wilmer, because we both think Wilmer is
likely going to be linked to other homicides and sexual
assaults if we can get past this restriction we've already
run into, which is that because is Wilmer was never
convicted of a crime, according to Virginia state law, he
can't be put into the CODAS system for additional DNA search.
And we think there's got to be a work around
there to be able to take a look at Wilmer
as a potential suspect in other cases.
Speaker 6: So one of the things that I have sort of
taken it upon myself to do in the last couple
of days while Bill has been sort of fielding media
and everything like that, is I have started looking at
other cold cases around here, Parkway adjacent ones like Brian Pettinger,
and then cases even further afield, like down in North
Carolina that seemed to match Wilmer's m We're hoping that
maybe if Wilmer is found good for Ambra Lundgren, where
the suspect sketch and the truck sketch very very closely
mirror Wilmer, maybe North Carolina can put him in Codis.
I think that there are workarounds there. But one of
the things that I've really been sort of re energized
by in the last three weeks since we got this
news is trying to figure out, you know, who else
might Wilmor be good for here. And obviously I'm not
an investigator, I'm not an agent, I'm not anything like that.
I'm just a determined person who has a hunch that
he's probably good for more than we've actually seen. And
so my big focus now is how many others can
we try it to pin him to, and the profile
that you guys came up with has definitely informed my thinking,
especially you know, you guys use the term an apex
predator and an opportunistic offender, and that has really made
me broaden my thinking beyond we're not just looking at
couples anymore, and we might even just be looking at
women anymore. Like Teresa and Laurie. I think it's entirely
possible he might be good for Brian Pettinger, which extends
him out into you know, single.
Speaker 2: Men as well.
Speaker 6: Definitely, you guys have helped me broaden out my thinking.
We're not looking at a rigid, you know, set of
of you know, in circumstances, he could have been anywhere
doing anything, so that that has helped a lot.
Speaker 2: Having y'all's impact.
Speaker 4: Well, them is going to be your window. That's going
to be your window into looking at all these things.
And you know, the to reprofile this is not really
reprofiling it. You're looking at them. You look at what
he's been, he's finally been attached to, which is which
is your your sisters and her friend's murder, And you
look at that and you say, what other murders are
similar and they don't have to be exact. You just
have to be similar. And then I think one way
the first thing that popped over or popped up in
my mind about how to work around that though, is
and the Bureau can help with this is serving subpoenas
for a sample in that case as it relates to
that case. If it's a statecase, they could they could
do that. Now when you look at this case here
what happened and Jim helped me with this a little bit.
I don't know exactly when it happened, but it was
probably back in the mid two thousands, Jim, where they
actually added a classification in our classifications of serial killer cases.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder.
Speaker 4: Remember about what when that was, Jim? Was that two
thousand and five.
Speaker 5: The two thousands, Yeah, I forget the exact date. And
it did give us more give the FBI more broad
investigative powers. We didn't have to wait just to be
called in by local police to help that, which you
know we would gladly do back then and again in
the early days with this case. That's all the FBI's
involvement was was a domestic police cooperation. Ray, that's how
the DPC. Yeah, it would come under any category, but
they'd have to ask us in and then then we
could take over from not takeover, but we could work
in conjunction with them from there. But now with their
own serial killer a classification. When I left where I
was about two hundred and fifty separate classifications of what
the FBI does.
Speaker 4: The serial killing was like three oh six, three seven eight.
After I did so were three hundred. Yeah I did.
Speaker 5: Some people say the FBI has too many classifications and
crimes they work, but that's another story. So yeah, that
definitely made a difference in that regard adding that classification
for us to do things. But you know, Christen, let
me let me add here and follow up with what
Ray was saying. And this sounds like common sense, But
I really learned this anecdotally and experientially through a number
of cases of all different ilk I've worked over the years,
from bank robberies to in fact serial rape cases to
even serial killer cases. And that is the earliest and
first crime. Again, whatever it may be in this serial
case is the one that will probably leave the most
evidence or be most reflective slash indicative of the persona
the profile of the individual at hand. And we may
have discussed some of this before. And in rape cases,
it's tough because, as we know, some women don't always
report rapes, and certainly in the past there were some
legitimate reasons for not doing that. And I'm not talking
about bleef friend rapes. They're bad enough as it is,
if you know, if it is classified as a rape,
a criminal activity, but certainly even stranger rapes and ray
we heard some of that in the Center City rapist
case issues going back in the summertime, that twenty part
series we did last year. But if in fact the
earliest rape and well, I'm sorry, Murder and Kristen, of
all the ones you described, what's the earliest one date wise?
They obviously I would I believe predate Cindy and Becky's murder,
the one in North Carolina. When did that occur?
Speaker 6: No, Katheine Becky's was the earliest. Amberline is in nineteen
ninety seven, So Katheyin and Becky are the first.
Speaker 5: All right, well, thirty nine years later. Some of the
mistakes he made with that case through DNA analysis, which
wasn't even thought of back then came through. Okay, I
thought some of these cases may have predated those, but
let me just say this up front. I wouldn't be
surprised if other cases did. We just may not know.
Speaker 2: We yeah, Jim, we agree. There's even a case from
eighty five, which would be the year before Kathy and
Becky's murder, of the murder up in the Rappahannock area
of a woman named Mary Keyser Harding and interestingly, Wilmer's
older brother, William Keith Wilmer, who went by his middle name,
was a strong suspect in this nineteen eighty five murder,
which is actually closer to the Lancaster County area of
Virginia where the Wilmer family is from. Another man was
convicted of that murder, but after thirty one years in jail,
the Innocence Project was able to prove that this man,
absence Stevens, was not responsible for Mary Kayser Harding's murder
and that, interestingly Keith Wilmer, Allan's older brother is actually
on the short list of suspects. Unfortunately, he also died
recently in April two thousand and twenty five, so we
both think that it's quite possible there may be additional
rapes and homicides that are associated with the Wilmers plural
that may predate Kathy and Becky's murder. So you may
very well be right. We're trying to move both backwards
and forwards here to try to figure out, like when
does this guy's spree, if you want to call it that,
begin and end, But we think there's definitely more to it.
Will the FBI and the Virginia State Police continue to
follow up. I think they will, but right now they're
not communicating much of that to the families.
Speaker 5: It would certainly be incumbent upon these local police departments
pre dating Becky and Cindy's homicides and certainly subsequent to
that to want to close these cases out and look
at the viable suspects that even other agencies or other
influencers can somehow bring to the surface. Yeah, it was
bothersome Kristin when you said earlier about well that the
FEDS would not I think you told me the FEDS
won't allow to put sexual assault kit DNA into databases
if they're not convicted.
Speaker 2: Is that correct as we understand it, it's actually a
Commonwealth of Virginia law that's standing in the way of
putting Alan Wade Wilmer's DNA into codis right now.
Speaker 4: You know what, Bill, I got a great idea. You know,
you've been carrying this flag for the whole years and rightfully,
so you know what, I think that you should take
this to the legislator and legislation and call it the
Kathy and Becky Law. Oh yeah, and do something like that,
get it. You know, you know, see your congressman, the senators,
they're probably that's not a big deal to do something
like that and let your sister's name live in infamy
and let her be the reason why others are saved
or why other families have closure like you've had. I
think that would be a great idea for your sisters
legacy and for Becky's legacy too.
Speaker 2: Well, it's something we're thinking about. Yeah, we would have
this would have to be changed, as we understand it,
at the state level, so we'd have to be dealing
with the Commonwealth of Virginia. We had met with the
Attorney General for the Commonwealth of Virginia last year and
he was very open to it. He did say that
timing wasn't great because it was late in the legislative session.
Now we have a new legislator that legislature that have
just been sworn in in Virginia. Interestingly, we've had a
shift over from from that group of people at the
AG's office to a newly elected AG. But I think
that we would be met with some positive response because
the families are determined to see this thing through. We've
been trying to deal with a lot. But I appreciate
what you're saying, Ray about the fact that that would
be a noble cause, and it is something we are
we are thinking about, and I would hope that the
new Attorney General would be as supportive as as the
previous AG. It's something we're definitely thinking about. Of course,
we've got a lot of stuff going on right about now,
and that is definitely on our list of things to do.
Speaker 5: I wish you luck with that bill because the new
governor and legislate tours in Virginia and the Commonwealth are
actually working to prohibit some further investigation of some groups
and tied in with you know, some fraud cases whatever,
and I we don't have to get into that whole
can of worms if you will, But I'll just say
good luck with that, and I hope you can get
through all the jetsam and floats them and get this
legislation going, and hopefully they would see this as very
you know, very specific to solving crimes of in many
cases as offs against women, and let's get these things
underway and they could have protective measures and you know,
these comparisons going to be made in certain types of
cases with perhaps subpoenas or quart orders or something like that.
So hopefully there'd be some kind of a compromise in
that regard, So good luck.
Speaker 2: The families have always resisted politicizing the Colonial Parkway murders.
I mean, the eight families. We're you know, everything from
conservative Republicans to progressive Democrats and every stop in between.
We've always worked together very effectively, even though we all
come at this from a variety of different perspectives. One
thing I'm a little bit hesitant about is working with
the legislature. If this is going to turn into a
political football, we kind of want nothing to do with that.
I think everyone, regardless of their political persuasion, would like
to see cases like ours solved, and this isn't about
who we voted for. It's who's going to step up
and give the Colonial Parkway murders families plural a hand
and in you know, finding a way to put Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into the code of system. One
other suggestion that's been made to us in the last
few weeks is that we might be able to finesse
this via a court order. But there's a lot more
work that needs to be done. It sounds like our
work is not through, not by a long shot. No,
it's not.
Speaker 6: And I mean when Bill got the news that he
was going to go into the FBI office, and I
figured right away, I said, buddy, it's going to be
a solve. And he was like, no, no, no, don't get
my hopes up. And I said, it's gonna be a solved.
I told him the day before he went, and I said,
this doesn't mean we're done. Even if they solve Kathy
and Becky, we're still not done. We have the calls
in the Haleys, Phelps's, and the Lowers they deserve answers to,
and then every other Wilmer victim out there, they deserve
to have answers as well, So like we are so
so not done. In fact, if you listen to what
Bill said just now, we're busier than ever. But it's
work that I think happy to take on because it's
so needed and we want every family out there to,
you know, have their day in which they understand exactly
what happened to their loved one. So we're not finished
in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 5: Chris in view of that, and maybe we can save
the details for another crossover episode between Cold Red and
Mine over Murder, But we've been sharing some emails now
for a few months, yes, and maybe we can scratch
the surface here that it may go beyond the Wilmer brothers,
that of some other murders being committed in the whole
Colonial Parkway milieu, if you will, and or adjacent. Would
you care to talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we kind of want to play this a little
close to the vest, but we definitely think that there
are relationships between Wilmer and other known offenders in the
area that are worth exploring. There are people that were
on the FBI's radar back in the day, if you will,
because they put themselves there, and we think that their
involvement in the case is worth a second or third look,
and that is something that we're hoping the Bureau is
willing to do, and we hope that's something that Virginia
State Police is willing to do as well. But we
do think that Wilmer may have had some accomplices, some
of whom are living, some of whom are dead. But
we are hoping that the Bureau and the VSP are
open to listening to us as we lay out some
of the information that we have gathered from locals who
have come forward and said, Hey, I know that you
know about Wilmer, but do you know about this guy
and this guy and this guy who are also affiliated
with Wilmer. So I think that there's the potential for
this to be bigger than it already is, but we
don't want to spill names or anything out just yet.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: I mentioned two people by name over the table with
the FBI, and they definitely recognize both names, one living,
one dead. But at the end of the meeting, I
pulled aside our case agent, whom I like quite a
bit and is very smart, and she's only been handling
the case for the last two years or so. But
she's very much on top of it, and she was
very interested in continuing that conversation. So we're actually working
on developing some leads that we received. Interestingly, I know
you've run into this, guys. There are people that are
willing to talk to us, the families, and particularly to
Kristen and me because of our work on Mind Over Murder,
that aren't necessarily one hundred percent comfortable talking to law enforcement. Now,
obviously we want them to talk to law enforcement about
any of the information they have to share, but sometimes
it takes a while to kind of coach these people
into being willing to step forward and provide their information
to law enforcement. Some of these folks have had negative
experiences with law enforcement, or they themselves might have a
somewhat sketchy background, or what have you, and our concern
is trying to get that information to the investigators that
can actually do something about it, but sometimes that takes
a while. I'm going to be heading back to Virginia
in the next couple of months and Kristin and I
are going to be sitting down with some of these
people and we're going to be urging them to tell
us what they know. But most importantly to communicate that
to the investigators that are actually handling the case. We
think there are living suspects in Virginia now that actually
may be attached to this murder series. Kristen's actually said,
as bizarre as it sounds, these men seem to almost
be working on this together in like a murder club.
And I know the two of you pushed back on that,
but stranger things have happened. Only some of these accomplices
need to be checked out. Well, let me ask you
both the question, the same question for both of you,
having been involve in this for a while, what's the
most surprising piece of information that came to you that
had not been in the public file. If you can
talk about I'm going to let Christen go first so
I can think about a good answer.
Speaker 6: No, I have to think about a good answer too.
You're the one who was in the meeting, not me.
Speaker 2: I never got into the room. Well, here's one interesting thing.
Bob d Dowski, my colleague from the Dowski family, he's Becky's
oldest brother. He was rock solid certain this was going
to be another suspect and he was really thrown off.
He told me later that it wasn't the suspect. Again
we're not naming names here, It wasn't the suspect that
he thought it was going to be. Interestingly, I walked
into the meeting with maybe a bit of more of
an open mind. I'm not criticizing Bob when I say that,
but I was surprised it was Wilmer. But then again,
given the fact that he'd already been linked to four homicides,
including two Robin Edwards and David Knobling, who are considered
part of the Colonial Parkway murders, I wasn't like going
to fall out of my chair when they told us
it was Wilmer. And I'm fairly certain Wilmer will be
identified as the offender at a minimum, I think in
the disappearance of Heath Call and Cassandra Hailey, because he
was a suspect within days of the disappearance of Keith
Call and Cassandra Haley. The FBI had him solidly on
their radar back in nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 6: Chris, I think I'm sort of torn between two answers,
and I think one I'm just going to keep for
private consumption with you guys, not public consumption for the
rest of the Internet. I would say definitely. The one
that I was most surprised about is when Bill was
asking questions about where they thought Kathy and beck were killed.
Bill and I have always thought that it was in
a closed off picnic area called the Ringfield plantation site,
and the agents didn't seem to think that that was
the case. They seem to think that the place where
Kathy and Becky were killed the primary crime scene was
in one of the half Moon pull offs that's like
really really close to the road, and I was very
surprised that they thought it was something that is is
that immediately visible to anybody driving by. You can hear
a car maybe you know, fifteen twenty seconds before you
see it. They didn't seem to think it was in
this very secluded area that we have always thought it was.
They're sure it was right where the car was left,
and I was really surprised by that. I'm wondering if
maybe that's just information they're keeping back from us, But
I don't know. They seem to think that it was
sort of right out in the open. That was a
little surprising to me.
Speaker 4: All right, are you ready for another question? Right at
both of you now when you look at Alan Allan
and Wade Wilmer, he was just a local fisherman, okay,
and he was a hunter. He had no prior criminal
record for violence. With that said, how does that affect
society's assumptions and law enforcements, assumptions about who commits violent
crimes not more, not so much regionally but universally well.
Speaker 2: In talking to family members, Interestingly, the Wilmer family reached
out to me two years ago when his name was
first announced as being associated with these murders, and I've
spoken multiple times to his family, his ex wife, his daughter,
his former daughter in law. One of the family members
said to me, it's almost like there's two Allons. There's
the man that they knew up in Lancaster County. He
has some priors, their misdemeanors, some of them may have
been pled down to a lower level of charges, but
he's not a guy with a public history of violence,
certainly nothing extreme. It sounds like he might have gotten
in some fights and things like that as a younger man.
But they feel like there's a disconnect between the Wilmer
who ends up on the peninsula where the Colonial Parkway
murders were committed. This is after his wife divorces him
and he moves down to the Colonial Parkway area where
he's working as a waterman as they call them, and
he seems to make some sort of transition over to
this extremely violent, scary guy, which wasn't a parent in
his younger days, and so that partner, they even said,
it's almost like there's two Allens like jec Celine Hide
almost And perhaps precipitating events might include his wife breaking
up with him, which she said even to the last
days of his life, he never understood why his wife
divorced him. And then he had a girlfriend who broke
up with him shortly before the Colonial Parkway murders began,
and she ended up marrying another man and moving away,
and apparently he took that very hard. So I think
there's precipitating events that might result in him lashing out
in the way that he did. I'm sure Kristin might
have some thoughts too. Now.
Speaker 6: I think, you know, very similarly to what Bill is saying.
I think that we have to change our idea of
what a serial killer looks like typically, and I think
that's something that we've had to do, you know, since
the advent of shows like Criminal Minds and so on
and so forth, which of course I'm a big fan
of and of course fits was involved with. I think
a lot of people still have this idea in their
head that a serial killer is meant to look her
act a certain way. But I think there's a lot
more seemingly nice guys on the surface who are harboring
some really dark, violent sides to them. I'm guessing that
there are probably more people out there than we would
like to think that have that dark side of their personality.
And as someone who you know, survived an abusive relationship
with someone like that who had a dark side to
his personality, I can attest to that. He is, you know,
mister everything to everybody on the outside, but inside you
don't want to know that guy. So I think I
think we really need to continue to, you know, emphasize
this idea that serial killers they really do sort of
look and act like the rest of us, and a
lot of times you met not see it, and that's
I think that somehow makes it scarier.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just in some cases I worked. I mean, you had,
you know, Professor Kaczynski, who was actually a mad bomber.
I mean did that. Years later, I was riding out
in wichital Kansas. I just watched a special on him.
I worked that case too, a little bit back in
the day, with some language aspects to the letters he
was writing. You know, he was a regular, you know,
a boy scout leader and coach and everything there. And
I mean, we can go down the list. There are
some other people that you know, lived more on the
rougher side of life, and they you know, almost predictable
to them. But now I think we've all learned over
the years that there is no one cookie cutter for
serial killers. And depending how they go about it, you know,
how violent they are, or they do it more subtly
or long distance, like with bombs and whatever. So I
certainly know as I was leaving the FBI and imparting
to people back then, and even nowadays when I still teach,
it's like, you know, let the evidence speak for itself.
You know, what mom and dad tell you, or even
husband and wife might tell you about someone doesn't necessarily
mean that's who they are. I still like to live
and we can probably wind things up here. But in
most cases, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
But you have to know what that past behavior is,
and you have to know how psychologically oriented it is.
And there may be some sort of cathartic moment in
their twenties or thirties that all of a sudden, the
life as they were living it, but following everyone else's
rules and obeying mom and dad, maybe strict you know,
parents or and other authoritarian figures in their personal lives,
that something goes wrong and they're finally on their own,
like like our guy when Wilmer, when he finally was divorced,
living in a new area, the real Wilmer comes out. Yeah,
So we have to keep looking in those type of
dark places and identify these people. The ones that are
we've described here are the ones that get away with it.
They're the ones we talk about on podcasts and certainly
in criminal investigations, are the ones that are very obvious
or sloppy. Certainly beginning they get caught right away and
they never get serial attached to their killer status as
they go along. They're one and done. Yeah, fascinating stuff,
you know, I know there's more to go. And kristin
what you told Bill clearly day after we got this
phone call. Whatever they tell you Bill, it ain't over.
You were probably more grammatically correct your teach English and writing.
I know, but the thought was theirs. Yeah, interesting case
anything the mind up here? I know we have another
I do, Yeah, we.
Speaker 4: Do have something else we have to do.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I want to take a moment and tribute to both
Kathy Thomas and Becky Dawski and other victims of both
soft and unsolved crimes in the Capital Park and Capital
Parkway murders and other areas around there. Just a moment
of silence, if you could please, Bill, uh. You know, Kristen,
I am so happy that there's mission a closure for
this to you. I know that your work is just beginning,
and I know you have many, many more things to do.
And Jim and I and cold Red are here to
help support you. Guys in any way we can thank
you so much.
Speaker 5: We'll be talking again soon, I'm sure on Mind over
Murder or perhaps back on Cold Rhetter, back when we
do it together. Everyone, Thanks for listening to this episode
of Cold Red and Mind Over Murder. Thanks to our
producers Matt Robinson, Matt McLachlin, our music coordinator, Rick Schilling,
and Lekos Subscribe to a share as all those type
things on coldredpodcast dot com and we will see you
next time on Coldred.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.
Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mindover Murder
Speaker 2: As