1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,399 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 4: Welcome back to another episode of Cole Grid. I'm Ray 14 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,719 Carr and with me always is Fetch Fitch. How are 15 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:47,159 you tonight. 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 5: I'm doing well, Ray, a little tired from the past week, 17 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,000 but I'm rejuvenated because we're doing one of our well 18 00:00:54,039 --> 00:01:00,840 known occasional crossover episodes with our friends from Mind Over murdering. Boy, 19 00:01:01,119 --> 00:01:03,799 do they have some good news tonight to share and 20 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,239 say good but it's advancing news of things that they've 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,319 been talking about for a long time. Why don't you 22 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,120 introduce them right? 23 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 4: Absolutely? Last month we sat in this studio with Bill 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,200 Thomas and Christin Dilly to build a victimology profile for 25 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,280 Kathy Thomas and Becky Dowski. We talked about the who 26 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,879 of the victims, hoping to find a way towards the killer. Today, 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,079 the who has a name, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. For third, 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,760 the Colonial Parkway murders held a shadow over Virginia. Now, 29 00:01:35,799 --> 00:01:40,719 thanks to advanced DNA testing, the FBI has confirmed that Wilmer, 30 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,840 a local fisherman who died in twenty seventeen, is the 31 00:01:44,879 --> 00:01:48,480 man responsible for the nineteen eighty six murders of Kathy 32 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:51,920 and Becky, as well as several other cases. Today, as 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,239 Jim said, we're joined by our good friends Bill and 34 00:01:55,319 --> 00:02:00,239 Kristen from the podcast Mind Over Murder. The Bureau finally 35 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:03,920 open their books. Bill tell us what that first meeting 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:04,280 was like. 37 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: Well, it's still kind of settling in ray and fits. 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,000 It's been a couple of weeks, but we got a 39 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,240 phone call about three weeks ago now asking us if 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,159 members of the Thomas Sandowski families could travel to Norfolk, Virginia, 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,520 where the FBI office is located. It's actually in Chesapeake, 42 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:27,039 which is right next door to Norfolk, to me to 43 00:02:27,039 --> 00:02:32,759 get an update on Kathy and Becky's case. They as usual, 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,560 played their cards very close to the best, but they 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,680 asked if if I could get down there and any 46 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,719 of my siblings or other family members that wanted to 47 00:02:41,759 --> 00:02:46,199 attend were also invited, and I explained to the FBI 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,360 that my older brother had just died a couple of 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,479 months ago, so he wasn't going to be able to attend, 50 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:55,159 and my younger brother, Jack was in the hospital awaiting 51 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:57,159 some heart surgery, so he was not going to be 52 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:00,680 able to attend. So it ended up being just myself 53 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,000 and then Bob Dowski, who is the older brother of 54 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:09,599 Becky Dowski, my sister's girlfriend, and the two women my sister, 55 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski were killed together in October 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,719 nineteen eighty six, So this was designed as an update 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,439 and no information I was provided in advance, so we 58 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,199 kind of went in cold in terms of what they 59 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:24,240 were going to share with us. 60 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 5: Did I hear right? Bill? Was there a bureau plane involved? 61 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 2: They offered to fly us in no FBI plane, but 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,879 they said they would pay for us to fly down 63 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:38,479 to Norfolk, and they put us up for the night 64 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,840 prior to the meeting. So we flew down there. I 65 00:03:41,879 --> 00:03:43,840 guess it's about three weeks ago now. I flew down 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,000 there on a Monday and met on Tuesday morning. 67 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:49,599 Speaker 5: You were probably a restless sleep of night for you. 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,520 I mean you're letting a lot of wrestless sleeps and 69 00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:55,680 night nights of sleep for you going back to nineteen 70 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:59,159 eighty six. Tell us what that was like and when 71 00:03:59,199 --> 00:04:00,759 you first walked in the office. 72 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,759 Speaker 2: Well, the whole thing is is just kind of it's 73 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:08,159 a very strange experience. Yeah, very much restless night's sleep 74 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,280 the night before in the hotel, and we went in 75 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:13,439 and we got there for eight thirty in the morning, 76 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,959 went through a very strict security protocol. They insisted that 77 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,360 we not bring in any cell phones, iPads, anything like that, 78 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,600 no recording devices. And quite frankly, I was so in 79 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,680 a frazzle with all of their very strict rules that 80 00:04:28,759 --> 00:04:30,879 I didn't even dare bring in a piece of paper. 81 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,879 I just went in, you know, completely bare handed, and 82 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,319 they put all your electronic devices in a locker and 83 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,879 then send you in. I realized afterward. They were timing 84 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:48,160 this right to the minute. They kept us waiting, chatting 85 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,519 with one of the assistant special agents in charge for 86 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:55,120 fifteen minutes or more, and then I realized later they 87 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,160 were actually timing it, so they brought us in exactly 88 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,920 at nine am. And one of the reasons for that 89 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:05,040 was they made a decision which I disagree with, to 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,399 drop a press release at nine am without our knowledge. 91 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,319 They told us about it after it had gone out, which, unfortunately, 92 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,480 right off the bat, created a problem for the families 93 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,360 in that we were not given an opportunity to contribute 94 00:05:20,399 --> 00:05:24,800 to the press release. There was no press conference, and unfortunately, 95 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,040 because they did what they did, our families who were 96 00:05:29,079 --> 00:05:32,199 waiting to hear from us. Bob and myself for the 97 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,279 Dawski and Thomas families, didn't learn about what had happened 98 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:40,879 to Kathy and Becky from us. They found out about 99 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,639 it via the World Wide Web because the minute the 100 00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:47,399 press release went out, their phone started ringing and people said, 101 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:50,480 have you've seen the news? Kathy and Becky were killed 102 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,000 by Alan Wade Wilmer, which is a name we were 103 00:05:53,079 --> 00:05:56,480 very familiar with. But it's an unfortunate way to start 104 00:05:56,519 --> 00:05:59,319 off a meeting, and it really threw the two of 105 00:05:59,399 --> 00:05:59,720 us off. 106 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:02,959 Speaker 4: I do too. Did Bill you know what that said? 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,000 Did they tell you why they did that? 108 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: Did you ask me? 109 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 4: No? 110 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: I was very challenging. As you know, my relationship with 111 00:06:10,399 --> 00:06:13,959 the FBI is a very direct one. I looked at 112 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:18,279 the sac across the table, and after she had said 113 00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:21,680 some very important things, the first few sentences out of 114 00:06:22,519 --> 00:06:27,560 the SAC's mouth were I'm going to cut to the 115 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,560 chase here or something like that. Not it said in 116 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:36,360 a disrespectful way. She said, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is 117 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:39,680 responsible for the deaths of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. 118 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,600 And you know as we as we the first few 119 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:45,240 minutes of the of the meeting went along. They were 120 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,560 about seven agents and staff on their side of the table, 121 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,079 Bob Dowski and I on our side of the table. 122 00:06:51,319 --> 00:06:54,480 I said, are you not having a press conference? And 123 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,360 she said no, And I said you need I may 124 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,279 even point I said you need to have a press conference. 125 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,560 I can't believe you're not having a press conference. The 126 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:10,959 Virginia State Police same suspect Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. They've 127 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:15,480 had two press conferences in the last two years announcing 128 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:21,040 various solves in the Colonial Parkway murders and other related cases. 129 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:24,839 They've already had two live press conferences. You're telling me 130 00:07:24,959 --> 00:07:27,839 you're not having a press conference. And I said to 131 00:07:27,879 --> 00:07:31,879 her directly, you need to take questions live on camera 132 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:37,240 to answer the many, many questions press media and the 133 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,279 families have. But they just looked at me blankly like, no, 134 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:43,720 we're not going to do that. And they didn't even 135 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:47,759 really respond to my kind of challenge in any meaningful way. 136 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,839 Clearly don't want to hear it. And they and frankly, 137 00:07:50,959 --> 00:07:52,439 clearly they don't want to hear from me. 138 00:07:52,639 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 5: So I'm a little confused. They went out to the media, 139 00:07:56,079 --> 00:07:59,839 but just through a standard FBI press release, not a 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:00,759 press conference. 141 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,399 Speaker 2: Absolutely correct, And we have no opportunity unlike the Virginia 142 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,160 State Police press conferences which have happened twice in the 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,199 last two years as they've made advances in other cases 144 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:16,720 as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. The families were 145 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,240 allowed to participate in those press conferences, were allowed to 146 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:24,040 contribute statements, you know, kind of indicating how they'd like 147 00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:27,360 their loved ones to be remembered. We were not afforded 148 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,160 that opportunity. We were not afforded any opportunity to speak 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,000 live to the press. No press were invited. It was very, 150 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,200 very weird. But this is unfortunately fairly typical of the 151 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:42,600 way the families have been treated in the Colonial Parkway murders, 152 00:08:42,639 --> 00:08:46,360 specifically by the FBI. The Virginia State Police have actually 153 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:51,759 been much more empathetic and respectful. Quite frankly, it's very, 154 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:55,720 very frustrating, and even as we speak now, I asked 155 00:08:55,759 --> 00:08:59,799 for a follow up discussion and it's been nearly two 156 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,360 and they haven't even responded to my inquiry as to 157 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,919 when can we expect to be able to ask follow 158 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,759 up questions. Interestingly, Bob Dwski, my colleague from the Dawski family, 159 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,840 was afforded that opportunity and spent two hours on the 160 00:09:14,919 --> 00:09:18,039 phone with the FBI a few days after our meeting, 161 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,240 and they've refused to afford me the same courtesy. You 162 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:24,200 think it's personal, well, I'll be frank as always, Ray, 163 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,360 I have been very critical of FBI Norfolk and the 164 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:31,960 way they've handled this case. Have felt the need Remember 165 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,320 it's been thirty nine years since Kathy and Becky were murdered, 166 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,840 and there have been a lot of problems in this case, 167 00:09:38,919 --> 00:09:43,240 and I have been forced, in my opinion, to point 168 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:46,919 out the problems and to call out their foot dragging. 169 00:09:47,279 --> 00:09:50,519 So I don't know, I mean, is it personal. I 170 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:53,080 have no way of knowing, but they sure seem to 171 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,679 be going out of their way to make sure that 172 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,279 I don't get answers to any of the many questions 173 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,360 I have, and they've afforded me no opportunity they need 174 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:04,559 to speak, and it's very frustrating to just be blocked 175 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,440 at every opportunity. Even as we speak today, I'm now 176 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:11,720 closing in. It'll be two weeks in a couple of 177 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:15,000 days since I asked for a follow up meeting, and 178 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:18,720 it's been more than two weeks since Bob Dowski already 179 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:22,000 had a follow up. So we're not getting equal treatment, 180 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:22,679 that's for sure. 181 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 5: Well, when we ended our crossover podcast was November or 182 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,480 December that we did it December when some new information 183 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,799 came in and Bill, quite frankly at the end, we 184 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,519 gave you some room, and you were very critical of 185 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,279 our former agency. But if they deserve it, they deserve it, 186 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,600 and we didn't stop you. If you recall, it's been great. 187 00:10:41,799 --> 00:10:45,080 I thought somehow we come on today finally, after a 188 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,440 few misstarts doing this, that all would be forgiven because 189 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,759 you have the news you wanted to hear. It's not 190 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,519 good news, but you at some level of closure, of course, 191 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:59,679 Yet why the hell is the Bureau just playing this 192 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,720 so obtrusive to you in terms of where you're going. 193 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:06,360 And I don't whether it's personal, I don't know things 194 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:08,799 you said in the past, I don't know, But this 195 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,159 is they could have made this such a positive moment, 196 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,320 is my point. Everything behind that, you know, forget. 197 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,879 Speaker 4: It, Jim, I agree, and in a moment where everybody 198 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:19,879 healed at the same time. 199 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, and hey, press conference, this is good news. We 200 00:11:23,159 --> 00:11:26,200 solve the case. Here are the family members media ask 201 00:11:26,279 --> 00:11:29,279 away or family members ask us in front of the media, 202 00:11:29,519 --> 00:11:30,840 however you want to do it. If they could answer 203 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,720 the questions, they could if they didn't, but at least 204 00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:35,000 they'd be out there in public. This wasn't the bureau 205 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,159 that I remembered from eighteen some years ago. But be 206 00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:41,440 that as it may. I but I suppose perhaps we 207 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,639 can focus on the news that you did learn and 208 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,559 the closure, if that's the right word. Only you can 209 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,399 tell me whether it's tell us whether it's closure or not. 210 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:53,519 But if the thirty nine years, but yeah, I'm sorry. 211 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,759 I maybe some folks will hear this and they'll they'll 212 00:11:55,759 --> 00:11:57,600 give another chance. I don't know, but I guess they 213 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,799 didn't do it last time in December when we were 214 00:11:59,799 --> 00:12:02,360 all together giving you another chance. So I don't know 215 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:03,840 what to make of this. They were nice to call you, 216 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:06,120 They offered to fly you down put you up, and 217 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:08,519 they didn't even have to do that. I suppose they 218 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:10,639 could have told you on the phone, but they did 219 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:16,039 this part, but the ball was dropped somewhere from communication deplotments. 220 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 4: Let's move in a direction and maybe you can answer this, 221 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:22,639 Bill d or Kristen. What was the evidence that they 222 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,759 told you and the investigative techniques that they used that 223 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:28,759 helped solve this case. Well, there's a couple of things, 224 00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:31,600 and there is good news in the mix here Ray 225 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,720 and fits, and I'm sorry that we end up with 226 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:37,320 this unnecessary conflict. 227 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: They didn't share a lot of information with us, which 228 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,840 has been our experience over all these years. But here's 229 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:49,399 what they did say. I asked them directly which outside 230 00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:54,039 lab did the DNA work, and they answered that question 231 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:56,960 in a straightforward manager, which I really appreciate. All I 232 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,759 want to do is ask questions and get answers and 233 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:03,799 I can move on. So the answer was DNA Labs 234 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:07,399 International out of Florida, who were a highly respected lab, 235 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,559 and they did the outside work. NA Labs International, by 236 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,360 the way, is the lab that's done all of the 237 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:20,200 other lab work in the Virginia State Police cases. They 238 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,200 used a SAKE grant and they arranged this through the 239 00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:29,559 Virginia State Police because of whatever the technicalities are regarding, 240 00:13:29,919 --> 00:13:34,039 the FEDS cannot use a sexual assault Kit Initiative grant, 241 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,200 but the Virginia State Police can. That's my understanding. So 242 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,840 DNA Labs International did the work. They said that they 243 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,879 retested evidence in Kathy and Becky's case. Specifically, they were 244 00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:52,440 looking at the interior my sister Kathy's nineteen eighty Honda 245 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,519 Civic and the clothing that they were wearing at the 246 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,399 time of their murder. And they said that evan that 247 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,159 they tested previously was retested. And of course, as we 248 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,360 all know and we're seeing this and this is exciting 249 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,960 news that the tests are getting so much more refined 250 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,480 that you're able to find evidence that you couldn't find 251 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:18,240 as recently as five years ago, So apparently around twenty eleven, 252 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,600 I think it was, they had tested Kathy and Becky's 253 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:25,480 clothing and had not found any evidence that would tie 254 00:14:25,559 --> 00:14:29,759 into a particular suspect. They went back and retested the evidence, 255 00:14:29,879 --> 00:14:33,519 and what they told us was that they found Wilmer's 256 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:37,200 DNA on Becky's bra, which she would have been wearing 257 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,720 under a T shirt and a kind of a sporty windbreaker. 258 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,480 Both women were big athletes, and that the DNA was 259 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:52,759 found on Becky's bra, which obviously, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior 260 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:57,519 does not belong inside Kathy and Becky's car. His DNA 261 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,360 does not belong on her bra. We asked what type 262 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,039 of DNA it was. They refused to answer the question, 263 00:15:04,279 --> 00:15:08,080 and we just don't understand, you know, it was it semen, 264 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,600 was it saliva? Was it touch DNA? 265 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:11,759 Speaker 5: What was it? 266 00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:14,519 Speaker 2: I don't think these are unreasonable questions, but they refuse 267 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:18,200 to answer. There's no trial coming up, so that's what 268 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:18,960 I said. 269 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:21,279 Speaker 5: Which I would understand them holding back a bit if 270 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,240 there was a subsequent trial. So anyway, right, I did 271 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:24,759 a rerunt. 272 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:28,559 Speaker 2: Well, and as Kristin can chime in, here there's the possibility, 273 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:32,519 which we acknowledge, that there could be accomplices, and some 274 00:15:32,559 --> 00:15:36,240 of these accomplices might still be alive. But I said 275 00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:38,960 over the table, I don't understand why you're refusing to 276 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,759 answer these questions. Exactly as you said, Jim. The no 277 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,320 one's going to trial. Wilmer's been dead since twenty seventeen. 278 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:50,080 We're kind of left scratching our heads. You know, Kristin, 279 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:52,840 you've been an observer for a long time here in 280 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,240 this case with Bill, and I want to ask, how 281 00:15:56,279 --> 00:16:00,039 does it feel with you to finally see the p 282 00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:01,279 fit together. 283 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 6: You know, I have lived with this case because I'm 284 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,320 a local, have lived with this case since I was 285 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,600 old enough to be aware of this case, and I 286 00:16:08,679 --> 00:16:12,759 have lived closely with the case as Bill's podcast partner 287 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,080 for the last ten years. And it was so unbelievably 288 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,159 fulfilling to see this happen because I have prayed for 289 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,879 this day for Bill since we started working together. I mean, 290 00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:30,120 I found myself in tears because this is so this 291 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:32,159 is what Bill has wanted, this is what he has 292 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,720 worked for our entire partnership, and to know that finally 293 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,000 Bill and Bob and everybody who loves the two women 294 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,200 were going to get the answers, maybe not full answers, 295 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:47,360 maybe not satisfactory answers, but that they finally had answers. 296 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:50,799 So it was a strange mix of being joyful because 297 00:16:50,799 --> 00:16:54,159 finally there are answers, but also very sad as well, 298 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,960 because now we know that the person that we've been 299 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,720 discussing in whose picture we've been looking at for the 300 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:03,360 last two years, is the last person that Katheen Becky 301 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:06,640 saw and I hate knowing that for them, But I 302 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,119 am so glad that we have answers because I am 303 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,079 hoping that it's a weight off of my partner's mind 304 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:14,559 and spirit. 305 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,319 Speaker 2: Well, and thank you, Kristin, and a lot of what 306 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,440 you said made me smile. And let's be clear, I 307 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:26,720 cannot thank the FBI and Virginia State Police and DNA 308 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:32,000 Labs International and the entire team enough for this incredible work. 309 00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:35,920 And knowing is much better than not knowing, and so 310 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,599 there is some relief. As you all know, I'm not 311 00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:42,599 terribly comfortable with closure. I said to one of the 312 00:17:42,599 --> 00:17:45,559 other families who's part of the Colonial Parkway murders is 313 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:49,160 not yet solved. I did say to one of them, 314 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:51,759 by the way, when you get this news. And I'm 315 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:54,000 very optimistic and I know Kristin is too, that we're 316 00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:57,119 going to see more solves in the Colonial Parkway murders, 317 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,680 and we both believe that Wilmer will be tied into 318 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,839 other unsolved thomicides and sexual assaults. But I said, it 319 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,720 isn't going to change your life, the knowing part. Am 320 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:12,200 I feeling better about the situation, absolutely, And do I 321 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,319 appreciate the work that's gone into this and the incredible 322 00:18:16,319 --> 00:18:21,000 dedication of the FBI and Virginia State Police teams. Absolutely, 323 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:24,440 I just I wish we could handle things in a 324 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,519 way where I know the FBI struggles because they think 325 00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,039 they're in the business of asking questions, not answering questions. 326 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,319 But families like mine deserve answers, and I don't think 327 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,839 what we're asking for is unreasonable and it's very unfortunate. 328 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,720 I feel like we're once again getting the straight arm 329 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,079 from the Bureau, and that doesn't feel good at all. 330 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,759 Speaker 4: You know, I kind of agree with you, But it 331 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:50,400 wasn't really the Bureau that solved this as much as 332 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,720 it was the forensic breakthroughs and the ability for science 333 00:18:56,039 --> 00:18:59,400 to move forward to a point where they could do 334 00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:03,119 those t that we're going to be helpful in solving 335 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,000 this case. Without that, we still be talking about, you know, 336 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,200 the profile of the individual that did this, the victimology 337 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:13,480 of the victims, and going to that. How do you 338 00:19:13,599 --> 00:19:16,839 think the things Jim and I said and others that 339 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,759 you have talked about. Talked to both you and Chris 340 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,720 about the profile we kind of build around who may 341 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:25,440 have done this without knowing the name. How do you 342 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:28,799 feel that those pieces fit in? Do they fit in 343 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,599 better now? Does it seem like we were on target 344 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:32,759 or were we off base? 345 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:33,279 Speaker 5: Well? 346 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: I think you were on target, and both Kristin and 347 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,160 I are very intensely curious if we can find a 348 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,599 way to match up Wilmer's profile and his DNA with 349 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,720 other unsolved murders. We've got two more double homicides in 350 00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:53,359 the Colonial Parkway murders. The disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra 351 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:00,079 Haley that's incident number three in the Colonial Parkway Murder series, 352 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,920 and then the murder of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer, 353 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,319 which is incident number four in the Colonial Parkway Murders. 354 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:12,119 As well as other murders that took place. Kristin had 355 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,599 coined this phrase colonial Parkway murders adjacent cases. We didn't 356 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:18,839 mean that in a disrespectful way, just we were just 357 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,880 looking at the four double homicides that are considered the 358 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,799 Colonial Parkway murders, and then there's these other unsolved murders 359 00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:28,960 of individuals that were happening at the same time, and 360 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,000 now we've seen that some of those are also clearly Wilmer. 361 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:36,279 We're up to six now, but I think your profile 362 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,480 was pretty spot on. Kristin said before we'd started this 363 00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:45,480 afternoon that she'd love to see this case reprofiled with 364 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,519 a focus on Wilmer, because we both think Wilmer is 365 00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:53,880 likely going to be linked to other homicides and sexual 366 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,359 assaults if we can get past this restriction we've already 367 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,960 run into, which is that because is Wilmer was never 368 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,680 convicted of a crime, according to Virginia state law, he 369 00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:09,200 can't be put into the CODAS system for additional DNA search. 370 00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:12,200 And we think there's got to be a work around 371 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,680 there to be able to take a look at Wilmer 372 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,559 as a potential suspect in other cases. 373 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 6: So one of the things that I have sort of 374 00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:23,079 taken it upon myself to do in the last couple 375 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:27,440 of days while Bill has been sort of fielding media 376 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:29,680 and everything like that, is I have started looking at 377 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,920 other cold cases around here, Parkway adjacent ones like Brian Pettinger, 378 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,440 and then cases even further afield, like down in North 379 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,079 Carolina that seemed to match Wilmer's m We're hoping that 380 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,480 maybe if Wilmer is found good for Ambra Lundgren, where 381 00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:47,559 the suspect sketch and the truck sketch very very closely 382 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,200 mirror Wilmer, maybe North Carolina can put him in Codis. 383 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,920 I think that there are workarounds there. But one of 384 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,160 the things that I've really been sort of re energized 385 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,319 by in the last three weeks since we got this 386 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,039 news is trying to figure out, you know, who else 387 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,319 might Wilmor be good for here. And obviously I'm not 388 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,160 an investigator, I'm not an agent, I'm not anything like that. 389 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,480 I'm just a determined person who has a hunch that 390 00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:15,480 he's probably good for more than we've actually seen. And 391 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:18,440 so my big focus now is how many others can 392 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,599 we try it to pin him to, and the profile 393 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,559 that you guys came up with has definitely informed my thinking, 394 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:28,880 especially you know, you guys use the term an apex 395 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,160 predator and an opportunistic offender, and that has really made 396 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,400 me broaden my thinking beyond we're not just looking at 397 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,279 couples anymore, and we might even just be looking at 398 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:42,000 women anymore. Like Teresa and Laurie. I think it's entirely 399 00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:44,880 possible he might be good for Brian Pettinger, which extends 400 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,119 him out into you know, single. 401 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 2: Men as well. 402 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 6: Definitely, you guys have helped me broaden out my thinking. 403 00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:53,440 We're not looking at a rigid, you know, set of 404 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,759 of you know, in circumstances, he could have been anywhere 405 00:22:56,759 --> 00:22:59,039 doing anything, so that that has helped a lot. 406 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,519 Speaker 2: Having y'all's impact. 407 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 4: Well, them is going to be your window. That's going 408 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,279 to be your window into looking at all these things. 409 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,519 And you know, the to reprofile this is not really 410 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,039 reprofiling it. You're looking at them. You look at what 411 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:20,599 he's been, he's finally been attached to, which is which 412 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,160 is your your sisters and her friend's murder, And you 413 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,440 look at that and you say, what other murders are 414 00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:31,160 similar and they don't have to be exact. You just 415 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,680 have to be similar. And then I think one way 416 00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,599 the first thing that popped over or popped up in 417 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,319 my mind about how to work around that though, is 418 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,440 and the Bureau can help with this is serving subpoenas 419 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,559 for a sample in that case as it relates to 420 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:48,160 that case. If it's a statecase, they could they could 421 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,839 do that. Now when you look at this case here 422 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,640 what happened and Jim helped me with this a little bit. 423 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,279 I don't know exactly when it happened, but it was 424 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,759 probably back in the mid two thousands, Jim, where they 425 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:05,359 actually added a classification in our classifications of serial killer cases. 426 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 427 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:17,039 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 428 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:17,960 mindover Murder. 429 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 4: Remember about what when that was, Jim? Was that two 430 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,640 thousand and five. 431 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 5: The two thousands, Yeah, I forget the exact date. And 432 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,480 it did give us more give the FBI more broad 433 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,200 investigative powers. We didn't have to wait just to be 434 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,839 called in by local police to help that, which you 435 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:36,279 know we would gladly do back then and again in 436 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:38,519 the early days with this case. That's all the FBI's 437 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:42,119 involvement was was a domestic police cooperation. Ray, that's how 438 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,880 the DPC. Yeah, it would come under any category, but 439 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,279 they'd have to ask us in and then then we 440 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:49,559 could take over from not takeover, but we could work 441 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,359 in conjunction with them from there. But now with their 442 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,839 own serial killer a classification. When I left where I 443 00:24:55,839 --> 00:24:58,240 was about two hundred and fifty separate classifications of what 444 00:24:58,279 --> 00:24:59,160 the FBI does. 445 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,839 Speaker 4: The serial killing was like three oh six, three seven eight. 446 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,599 After I did so were three hundred. Yeah I did. 447 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,839 Speaker 5: Some people say the FBI has too many classifications and 448 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,839 crimes they work, but that's another story. So yeah, that 449 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,079 definitely made a difference in that regard adding that classification 450 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,799 for us to do things. But you know, Christen, let 451 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:20,920 me let me add here and follow up with what 452 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,680 Ray was saying. And this sounds like common sense, But 453 00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:28,759 I really learned this anecdotally and experientially through a number 454 00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,640 of cases of all different ilk I've worked over the years, 455 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,920 from bank robberies to in fact serial rape cases to 456 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,160 even serial killer cases. And that is the earliest and 457 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,799 first crime. Again, whatever it may be in this serial 458 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,119 case is the one that will probably leave the most 459 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,279 evidence or be most reflective slash indicative of the persona 460 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,839 the profile of the individual at hand. And we may 461 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,240 have discussed some of this before. And in rape cases, 462 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,640 it's tough because, as we know, some women don't always 463 00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:03,319 report rapes, and certainly in the past there were some 464 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,039 legitimate reasons for not doing that. And I'm not talking 465 00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:08,559 about bleef friend rapes. They're bad enough as it is, 466 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:11,160 if you know, if it is classified as a rape, 467 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,559 a criminal activity, but certainly even stranger rapes and ray 468 00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:16,400 we heard some of that in the Center City rapist 469 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,640 case issues going back in the summertime, that twenty part 470 00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:23,200 series we did last year. But if in fact the 471 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,359 earliest rape and well, I'm sorry, Murder and Kristen, of 472 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,920 all the ones you described, what's the earliest one date wise? 473 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,079 They obviously I would I believe predate Cindy and Becky's murder, 474 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,000 the one in North Carolina. When did that occur? 475 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,319 Speaker 6: No, Katheine Becky's was the earliest. Amberline is in nineteen 476 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,480 ninety seven, So Katheyin and Becky are the first. 477 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:47,079 Speaker 5: All right, well, thirty nine years later. Some of the 478 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,160 mistakes he made with that case through DNA analysis, which 479 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,599 wasn't even thought of back then came through. Okay, I 480 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:55,440 thought some of these cases may have predated those, but 481 00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:57,400 let me just say this up front. I wouldn't be 482 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,880 surprised if other cases did. We just may not know. 483 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: We yeah, Jim, we agree. There's even a case from 484 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,559 eighty five, which would be the year before Kathy and 485 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:11,000 Becky's murder, of the murder up in the Rappahannock area 486 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,319 of a woman named Mary Keyser Harding and interestingly, Wilmer's 487 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,640 older brother, William Keith Wilmer, who went by his middle name, 488 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,599 was a strong suspect in this nineteen eighty five murder, 489 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:29,960 which is actually closer to the Lancaster County area of 490 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:34,000 Virginia where the Wilmer family is from. Another man was 491 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,599 convicted of that murder, but after thirty one years in jail, 492 00:27:39,799 --> 00:27:42,359 the Innocence Project was able to prove that this man, 493 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,640 absence Stevens, was not responsible for Mary Kayser Harding's murder 494 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,400 and that, interestingly Keith Wilmer, Allan's older brother is actually 495 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,759 on the short list of suspects. Unfortunately, he also died 496 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,000 recently in April two thousand and twenty five, so we 497 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,039 both think that it's quite possible there may be additional 498 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,160 rapes and homicides that are associated with the Wilmers plural 499 00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:15,680 that may predate Kathy and Becky's murder. So you may 500 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,839 very well be right. We're trying to move both backwards 501 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,200 and forwards here to try to figure out, like when 502 00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:26,279 does this guy's spree, if you want to call it that, 503 00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:29,680 begin and end, But we think there's definitely more to it. 504 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,640 Will the FBI and the Virginia State Police continue to 505 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,960 follow up. I think they will, but right now they're 506 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,599 not communicating much of that to the families. 507 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,119 Speaker 5: It would certainly be incumbent upon these local police departments 508 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,440 pre dating Becky and Cindy's homicides and certainly subsequent to 509 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,680 that to want to close these cases out and look 510 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,119 at the viable suspects that even other agencies or other 511 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200 influencers can somehow bring to the surface. Yeah, it was 512 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,359 bothersome Kristin when you said earlier about well that the 513 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,359 FEDS would not I think you told me the FEDS 514 00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:08,799 won't allow to put sexual assault kit DNA into databases 515 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:09,920 if they're not convicted. 516 00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: Is that correct as we understand it, it's actually a 517 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,440 Commonwealth of Virginia law that's standing in the way of 518 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:20,880 putting Alan Wade Wilmer's DNA into codis right now. 519 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 4: You know what, Bill, I got a great idea. You know, 520 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,880 you've been carrying this flag for the whole years and rightfully, 521 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,519 so you know what, I think that you should take 522 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:36,680 this to the legislator and legislation and call it the 523 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:42,160 Kathy and Becky Law. Oh yeah, and do something like that, 524 00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:45,359 get it. You know, you know, see your congressman, the senators, 525 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,279 they're probably that's not a big deal to do something 526 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:51,759 like that and let your sister's name live in infamy 527 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,799 and let her be the reason why others are saved 528 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,400 or why other families have closure like you've had. I 529 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,920 think that would be a great idea for your sisters 530 00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:03,559 legacy and for Becky's legacy too. 531 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: Well, it's something we're thinking about. Yeah, we would have 532 00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:08,680 this would have to be changed, as we understand it, 533 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:11,160 at the state level, so we'd have to be dealing 534 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,920 with the Commonwealth of Virginia. We had met with the 535 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,559 Attorney General for the Commonwealth of Virginia last year and 536 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,119 he was very open to it. He did say that 537 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:23,960 timing wasn't great because it was late in the legislative session. 538 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:27,640 Now we have a new legislator that legislature that have 539 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,559 just been sworn in in Virginia. Interestingly, we've had a 540 00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:34,359 shift over from from that group of people at the 541 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,480 AG's office to a newly elected AG. But I think 542 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:43,559 that we would be met with some positive response because 543 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:46,839 the families are determined to see this thing through. We've 544 00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:49,880 been trying to deal with a lot. But I appreciate 545 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,480 what you're saying, Ray about the fact that that would 546 00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:56,160 be a noble cause, and it is something we are 547 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,599 we are thinking about, and I would hope that the 548 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,279 new Attorney General would be as supportive as as the 549 00:31:05,359 --> 00:31:08,880 previous AG. It's something we're definitely thinking about. Of course, 550 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,759 we've got a lot of stuff going on right about now, 551 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,359 and that is definitely on our list of things to do. 552 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 5: I wish you luck with that bill because the new 553 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,440 governor and legislate tours in Virginia and the Commonwealth are 554 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:28,240 actually working to prohibit some further investigation of some groups 555 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:31,319 and tied in with you know, some fraud cases whatever, 556 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,680 and I we don't have to get into that whole 557 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,400 can of worms if you will, But I'll just say 558 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,640 good luck with that, and I hope you can get 559 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,640 through all the jetsam and floats them and get this 560 00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:45,359 legislation going, and hopefully they would see this as very 561 00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:50,000 you know, very specific to solving crimes of in many 562 00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:53,240 cases as offs against women, and let's get these things 563 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:56,599 underway and they could have protective measures and you know, 564 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,319 these comparisons going to be made in certain types of 565 00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:02,759 cases with perhaps subpoenas or quart orders or something like that. 566 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,240 So hopefully there'd be some kind of a compromise in 567 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,839 that regard, So good luck. 568 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,279 Speaker 2: The families have always resisted politicizing the Colonial Parkway murders. 569 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:17,160 I mean, the eight families. We're you know, everything from 570 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,279 conservative Republicans to progressive Democrats and every stop in between. 571 00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:27,119 We've always worked together very effectively, even though we all 572 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,319 come at this from a variety of different perspectives. One 573 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:34,279 thing I'm a little bit hesitant about is working with 574 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:36,839 the legislature. If this is going to turn into a 575 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,839 political football, we kind of want nothing to do with that. 576 00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:46,839 I think everyone, regardless of their political persuasion, would like 577 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,200 to see cases like ours solved, and this isn't about 578 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:55,720 who we voted for. It's who's going to step up 579 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,000 and give the Colonial Parkway murders families plural a hand 580 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:02,880 and in you know, finding a way to put Alan 581 00:33:03,079 --> 00:33:06,480 Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into the code of system. One 582 00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:08,640 other suggestion that's been made to us in the last 583 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,960 few weeks is that we might be able to finesse 584 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,440 this via a court order. But there's a lot more 585 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,680 work that needs to be done. It sounds like our 586 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,720 work is not through, not by a long shot. No, 587 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:24,640 it's not. 588 00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 6: And I mean when Bill got the news that he 589 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,119 was going to go into the FBI office, and I 590 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,079 figured right away, I said, buddy, it's going to be 591 00:33:33,079 --> 00:33:35,119 a solve. And he was like, no, no, no, don't get 592 00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:36,640 my hopes up. And I said, it's gonna be a solved. 593 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,960 I told him the day before he went, and I said, 594 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,920 this doesn't mean we're done. Even if they solve Kathy 595 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,240 and Becky, we're still not done. We have the calls 596 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,200 in the Haleys, Phelps's, and the Lowers they deserve answers to, 597 00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:50,720 and then every other Wilmer victim out there, they deserve 598 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:53,720 to have answers as well, So like we are so 599 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,279 so not done. In fact, if you listen to what 600 00:33:56,359 --> 00:33:59,119 Bill said just now, we're busier than ever. But it's 601 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,480 work that I think happy to take on because it's 602 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:06,279 so needed and we want every family out there to, 603 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,079 you know, have their day in which they understand exactly 604 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,280 what happened to their loved one. So we're not finished 605 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,280 in any way, shape or form. 606 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 5: Chris in view of that, and maybe we can save 607 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,239 the details for another crossover episode between Cold Red and 608 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,719 Mine over Murder, But we've been sharing some emails now 609 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,159 for a few months, yes, and maybe we can scratch 610 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:33,519 the surface here that it may go beyond the Wilmer brothers, 611 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:37,119 that of some other murders being committed in the whole 612 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:42,440 Colonial Parkway milieu, if you will, and or adjacent. Would 613 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,960 you care to talk a little bit about that. 614 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,519 Speaker 6: Yeah, we kind of want to play this a little 615 00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,679 close to the vest, but we definitely think that there 616 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,679 are relationships between Wilmer and other known offenders in the 617 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,440 area that are worth exploring. There are people that were 618 00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:06,159 on the FBI's radar back in the day, if you will, 619 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,039 because they put themselves there, and we think that their 620 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,599 involvement in the case is worth a second or third look, 621 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:17,159 and that is something that we're hoping the Bureau is 622 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:20,519 willing to do, and we hope that's something that Virginia 623 00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:23,440 State Police is willing to do as well. But we 624 00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,800 do think that Wilmer may have had some accomplices, some 625 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,360 of whom are living, some of whom are dead. But 626 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,400 we are hoping that the Bureau and the VSP are 627 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,559 open to listening to us as we lay out some 628 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,719 of the information that we have gathered from locals who 629 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,800 have come forward and said, Hey, I know that you 630 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,480 know about Wilmer, but do you know about this guy 631 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:48,360 and this guy and this guy who are also affiliated 632 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,800 with Wilmer. So I think that there's the potential for 633 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,840 this to be bigger than it already is, but we 634 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,199 don't want to spill names or anything out just yet. 635 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 5: Now. 636 00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: I mentioned two people by name over the table with 637 00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:07,000 the FBI, and they definitely recognize both names, one living, 638 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:09,800 one dead. But at the end of the meeting, I 639 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,639 pulled aside our case agent, whom I like quite a 640 00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:17,400 bit and is very smart, and she's only been handling 641 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,719 the case for the last two years or so. But 642 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,599 she's very much on top of it, and she was 643 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,800 very interested in continuing that conversation. So we're actually working 644 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,880 on developing some leads that we received. Interestingly, I know 645 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,440 you've run into this, guys. There are people that are 646 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,559 willing to talk to us, the families, and particularly to 647 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:40,519 Kristen and me because of our work on Mind Over Murder, 648 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,480 that aren't necessarily one hundred percent comfortable talking to law enforcement. Now, 649 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:49,360 obviously we want them to talk to law enforcement about 650 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,679 any of the information they have to share, but sometimes 651 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,000 it takes a while to kind of coach these people 652 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,840 into being willing to step forward and provide their information 653 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,480 to law enforcement. Some of these folks have had negative 654 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:09,480 experiences with law enforcement, or they themselves might have a 655 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:13,119 somewhat sketchy background, or what have you, and our concern 656 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,599 is trying to get that information to the investigators that 657 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,880 can actually do something about it, but sometimes that takes 658 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,199 a while. I'm going to be heading back to Virginia 659 00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:24,039 in the next couple of months and Kristin and I 660 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:25,719 are going to be sitting down with some of these 661 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,960 people and we're going to be urging them to tell 662 00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:32,480 us what they know. But most importantly to communicate that 663 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,280 to the investigators that are actually handling the case. We 664 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,239 think there are living suspects in Virginia now that actually 665 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:46,760 may be attached to this murder series. Kristen's actually said, 666 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,679 as bizarre as it sounds, these men seem to almost 667 00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:54,559 be working on this together in like a murder club. 668 00:37:54,679 --> 00:37:57,079 And I know the two of you pushed back on that, 669 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,719 but stranger things have happened. Only some of these accomplices 670 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,840 need to be checked out. Well, let me ask you 671 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,239 both the question, the same question for both of you, 672 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,679 having been involve in this for a while, what's the 673 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:16,199 most surprising piece of information that came to you that 674 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,480 had not been in the public file. If you can 675 00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:20,440 talk about I'm going to let Christen go first so 676 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:21,679 I can think about a good answer. 677 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,519 Speaker 6: No, I have to think about a good answer too. 678 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:25,519 You're the one who was in the meeting, not me. 679 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,079 Speaker 2: I never got into the room. Well, here's one interesting thing. 680 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,920 Bob d Dowski, my colleague from the Dowski family, he's Becky's 681 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,360 oldest brother. He was rock solid certain this was going 682 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,239 to be another suspect and he was really thrown off. 683 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,199 He told me later that it wasn't the suspect. Again 684 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:50,559 we're not naming names here, It wasn't the suspect that 685 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,000 he thought it was going to be. Interestingly, I walked 686 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:57,760 into the meeting with maybe a bit of more of 687 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,760 an open mind. I'm not criticizing Bob when I say that, 688 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,760 but I was surprised it was Wilmer. But then again, 689 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,880 given the fact that he'd already been linked to four homicides, 690 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:12,719 including two Robin Edwards and David Knobling, who are considered 691 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,400 part of the Colonial Parkway murders, I wasn't like going 692 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,800 to fall out of my chair when they told us 693 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,440 it was Wilmer. And I'm fairly certain Wilmer will be 694 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,079 identified as the offender at a minimum, I think in 695 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:28,519 the disappearance of Heath Call and Cassandra Hailey, because he 696 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,719 was a suspect within days of the disappearance of Keith 697 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,559 Call and Cassandra Haley. The FBI had him solidly on 698 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:39,760 their radar back in nineteen eighty eight. 699 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 6: Chris, I think I'm sort of torn between two answers, 700 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,960 and I think one I'm just going to keep for 701 00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:51,840 private consumption with you guys, not public consumption for the 702 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,800 rest of the Internet. I would say definitely. The one 703 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,440 that I was most surprised about is when Bill was 704 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,760 asking questions about where they thought Kathy and beck were killed. 705 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,880 Bill and I have always thought that it was in 706 00:40:03,079 --> 00:40:06,960 a closed off picnic area called the Ringfield plantation site, 707 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:09,480 and the agents didn't seem to think that that was 708 00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:12,480 the case. They seem to think that the place where 709 00:40:12,559 --> 00:40:15,000 Kathy and Becky were killed the primary crime scene was 710 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,480 in one of the half Moon pull offs that's like 711 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,480 really really close to the road, and I was very 712 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:25,039 surprised that they thought it was something that is is 713 00:40:25,119 --> 00:40:28,679 that immediately visible to anybody driving by. You can hear 714 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,280 a car maybe you know, fifteen twenty seconds before you 715 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,679 see it. They didn't seem to think it was in 716 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,639 this very secluded area that we have always thought it was. 717 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,360 They're sure it was right where the car was left, 718 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:45,159 and I was really surprised by that. I'm wondering if 719 00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:48,440 maybe that's just information they're keeping back from us, But 720 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,119 I don't know. They seem to think that it was 721 00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:52,400 sort of right out in the open. That was a 722 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,440 little surprising to me. 723 00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:56,599 Speaker 4: All right, are you ready for another question? Right at 724 00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:59,960 both of you now when you look at Alan Allan 725 00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:03,320 and Wade Wilmer, he was just a local fisherman, okay, 726 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,079 and he was a hunter. He had no prior criminal 727 00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:10,480 record for violence. With that said, how does that affect 728 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:16,119 society's assumptions and law enforcements, assumptions about who commits violent 729 00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:20,639 crimes not more, not so much regionally but universally well. 730 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,199 Speaker 2: In talking to family members, Interestingly, the Wilmer family reached 731 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,519 out to me two years ago when his name was 732 00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:33,719 first announced as being associated with these murders, and I've 733 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,519 spoken multiple times to his family, his ex wife, his daughter, 734 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,440 his former daughter in law. One of the family members 735 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,519 said to me, it's almost like there's two Allons. There's 736 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,440 the man that they knew up in Lancaster County. He 737 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:53,280 has some priors, their misdemeanors, some of them may have 738 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,400 been pled down to a lower level of charges, but 739 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,719 he's not a guy with a public history of violence, 740 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,639 certainly nothing extreme. It sounds like he might have gotten 741 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,239 in some fights and things like that as a younger man. 742 00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:14,639 But they feel like there's a disconnect between the Wilmer 743 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,360 who ends up on the peninsula where the Colonial Parkway 744 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,320 murders were committed. This is after his wife divorces him 745 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,639 and he moves down to the Colonial Parkway area where 746 00:42:26,639 --> 00:42:29,679 he's working as a waterman as they call them, and 747 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,719 he seems to make some sort of transition over to 748 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:39,159 this extremely violent, scary guy, which wasn't a parent in 749 00:42:39,199 --> 00:42:42,880 his younger days, and so that partner, they even said, 750 00:42:43,119 --> 00:42:46,719 it's almost like there's two Allens like jec Celine Hide 751 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:52,840 almost And perhaps precipitating events might include his wife breaking 752 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,400 up with him, which she said even to the last 753 00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:58,559 days of his life, he never understood why his wife 754 00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:02,119 divorced him. And then he had a girlfriend who broke 755 00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:06,679 up with him shortly before the Colonial Parkway murders began, 756 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:11,480 and she ended up marrying another man and moving away, 757 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,280 and apparently he took that very hard. So I think 758 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:20,360 there's precipitating events that might result in him lashing out 759 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,559 in the way that he did. I'm sure Kristin might 760 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:24,840 have some thoughts too. Now. 761 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 6: I think, you know, very similarly to what Bill is saying. 762 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:34,800 I think that we have to change our idea of 763 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,280 what a serial killer looks like typically, and I think 764 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,920 that's something that we've had to do, you know, since 765 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,039 the advent of shows like Criminal Minds and so on 766 00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:48,079 and so forth, which of course I'm a big fan 767 00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:51,000 of and of course fits was involved with. I think 768 00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:53,039 a lot of people still have this idea in their 769 00:43:53,079 --> 00:43:55,320 head that a serial killer is meant to look her 770 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,599 act a certain way. But I think there's a lot 771 00:43:57,639 --> 00:44:02,320 more seemingly nice guys on the surface who are harboring 772 00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:06,039 some really dark, violent sides to them. I'm guessing that 773 00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:08,039 there are probably more people out there than we would 774 00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,599 like to think that have that dark side of their personality. 775 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:16,599 And as someone who you know, survived an abusive relationship 776 00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,400 with someone like that who had a dark side to 777 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,480 his personality, I can attest to that. He is, you know, 778 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,199 mister everything to everybody on the outside, but inside you 779 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,559 don't want to know that guy. So I think I 780 00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:32,360 think we really need to continue to, you know, emphasize 781 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,079 this idea that serial killers they really do sort of 782 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,199 look and act like the rest of us, and a 783 00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:39,119 lot of times you met not see it, and that's 784 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,679 I think that somehow makes it scarier. 785 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, just in some cases I worked. I mean, you had, 786 00:44:44,679 --> 00:44:47,880 you know, Professor Kaczynski, who was actually a mad bomber. 787 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,199 I mean did that. Years later, I was riding out 788 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,960 in wichital Kansas. I just watched a special on him. 789 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,039 I worked that case too, a little bit back in 790 00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:58,760 the day, with some language aspects to the letters he 791 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,880 was writing. You know, he was a regular, you know, 792 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,000 a boy scout leader and coach and everything there. And 793 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,599 I mean, we can go down the list. There are 794 00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:08,039 some other people that you know, lived more on the 795 00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:11,280 rougher side of life, and they you know, almost predictable 796 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,360 to them. But now I think we've all learned over 797 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,639 the years that there is no one cookie cutter for 798 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,360 serial killers. And depending how they go about it, you know, 799 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,559 how violent they are, or they do it more subtly 800 00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:26,239 or long distance, like with bombs and whatever. So I 801 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,119 certainly know as I was leaving the FBI and imparting 802 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:31,960 to people back then, and even nowadays when I still teach, 803 00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:34,960 it's like, you know, let the evidence speak for itself. 804 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,159 You know, what mom and dad tell you, or even 805 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,039 husband and wife might tell you about someone doesn't necessarily 806 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,239 mean that's who they are. I still like to live 807 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,480 and we can probably wind things up here. But in 808 00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:49,679 most cases, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. 809 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,800 But you have to know what that past behavior is, 810 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,719 and you have to know how psychologically oriented it is. 811 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,440 And there may be some sort of cathartic moment in 812 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960 their twenties or thirties that all of a sudden, the 813 00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:02,679 life as they were living it, but following everyone else's 814 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,079 rules and obeying mom and dad, maybe strict you know, 815 00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:09,760 parents or and other authoritarian figures in their personal lives, 816 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,920 that something goes wrong and they're finally on their own, 817 00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:15,519 like like our guy when Wilmer, when he finally was divorced, 818 00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:20,000 living in a new area, the real Wilmer comes out. Yeah, 819 00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,119 So we have to keep looking in those type of 820 00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:25,239 dark places and identify these people. The ones that are 821 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,519 we've described here are the ones that get away with it. 822 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,199 They're the ones we talk about on podcasts and certainly 823 00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:33,320 in criminal investigations, are the ones that are very obvious 824 00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:36,800 or sloppy. Certainly beginning they get caught right away and 825 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,039 they never get serial attached to their killer status as 826 00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:43,039 they go along. They're one and done. Yeah, fascinating stuff, 827 00:46:43,039 --> 00:46:44,519 you know, I know there's more to go. And kristin 828 00:46:44,519 --> 00:46:47,079 what you told Bill clearly day after we got this 829 00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:49,800 phone call. Whatever they tell you Bill, it ain't over. 830 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,639 You were probably more grammatically correct your teach English and writing. 831 00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:59,280 I know, but the thought was theirs. Yeah, interesting case 832 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,159 anything the mind up here? I know we have another 833 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,159 I do, Yeah, we. 834 00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 4: Do have something else we have to do. 835 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:04,159 Speaker 5: You know. 836 00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:08,079 Speaker 4: I want to take a moment and tribute to both 837 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,679 Kathy Thomas and Becky Dawski and other victims of both 838 00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:16,119 soft and unsolved crimes in the Capital Park and Capital 839 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,920 Parkway murders and other areas around there. Just a moment 840 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,039 of silence, if you could please, Bill, uh. You know, Kristen, 841 00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:27,800 I am so happy that there's mission a closure for 842 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,599 this to you. I know that your work is just beginning, 843 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,920 and I know you have many, many more things to do. 844 00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:36,000 And Jim and I and cold Red are here to 845 00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:38,320 help support you. Guys in any way we can thank 846 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,360 you so much. 847 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,800 Speaker 5: We'll be talking again soon, I'm sure on Mind over 848 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,400 Murder or perhaps back on Cold Rhetter, back when we 849 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,599 do it together. Everyone, Thanks for listening to this episode 850 00:47:48,679 --> 00:47:52,280 of Cold Red and Mind Over Murder. Thanks to our 851 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,840 producers Matt Robinson, Matt McLachlin, our music coordinator, Rick Schilling, 852 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,239 and Lekos Subscribe to a share as all those type 853 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,320 things on coldredpodcast dot com and we will see you 854 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,280 next time on Coldred. 855 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 856 00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:18,920 Another Dog Productions. 857 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 858 00:48:23,159 --> 00:48:25,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 859 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,280 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 860 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 861 00:48:33,519 --> 00:48:36,679 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 862 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 863 00:48:39,559 --> 00:48:41,440 Murders on Facebook. 864 00:48:41,119 --> 00:48:44,159 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 865 00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:45,840 Bill Thomas five six. 866 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mindover Murder 867 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 2: As