WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.839 Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. 2 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:12.320 This week on our panel, we have Steve Edwards. 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.640 Covering for Aja Yo Yo Yo. Coming at you from 4 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:17.519 someone cloudy and not too cool Portland. 5 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:21.079 Yeah, I don't know if we directly addressed that. I 6 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.559 think Aj said it, but he's kind of backed out 7 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:25.839 of the podcast for the foreseeable future. So I think 8 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.800 most of his work is in not in JavaScript these days, 9 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.039 and so he didn't feel like it was a tremendously 10 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:35.119 good fit. But anyway, I'm Charles max Wood from Top 11 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.880 End Devs. It feels like forever since I've been able 12 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:39.520 to get on and record one of these, so I'm 13 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:41.280 kind of excited to see how it goes. 14 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:43.359 Yeah, we have Eric Hanschett. 15 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:45.840 Eric, you've been on the show before and you co 16 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.159 hosted views on View I think way back when, so 17 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:50.799 you shouldn't be a stranger to people. 18 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:51.799 But yeah, welcome back. 19 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.439 Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. And 20 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:58.600 yeah view some of you that look that up look 21 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.240 that one up back in the in the archives if 22 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:02.640 he can. It was a fun podcast. 23 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:05.159 Yeah, all of the archives are still out there. We're 24 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:09.680 not producing any new episodes I don't have any plans 25 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:12.599 to bring it back, but if, yeah, if the right 26 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:14.359 opportunity comes up, I guess we could. 27 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:17.159 It's just yeah anyway, So, yeah, so what's new. 28 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:20.959 Eric, Yeah, Well, thanks for having me on again. It's 29 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.959 good to be back here. I thought it'd be fun. 30 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:28.519 I've emailed Stephen about like different things that are happening, 31 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.879 but one is a view COOMF. I thought it'd be 32 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:33.560 fun to talk about VIEWCOMF for those who don't know, 33 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.599 that's a there's a couple of different view comps. There's 34 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.680 one in the United States, there's one in Europe. But 35 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:43.719 I went to the one in the United States a 36 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.519 few weeks ago. Actually it's May in May, so I 37 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:51.799 guess that's a month ago, and it was in Tampa, USA. 38 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:53.519 So I thought we could chat about that at first. 39 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:54.400 Yeah. 40 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.519 Now, or all of them put on by the same 41 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.439 organization or do they just share a name or how 42 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:00.120 does that work? 43 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:03.680 I don't know exactly. I believe they are the same 44 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:05.680 organization that does the one in Europe and the one 45 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.319 in the United States. It's even you. I believe it's 46 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:15.120 part of his companies that he's working on and he 47 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:19.080 helps put it on I don't think he actually owns 48 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.159 the company, but he's a part of it. 49 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:25.199 Of course, Well that makes sense given his role with you. 50 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:27.400 So yeah, so how was VI KMF. 51 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.960 Yeah yeah, it was awesome. So there's this I know, 52 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:34.960 probably on this podcast and many others, the conversation tends 53 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.080 to always move over to React and of course React 54 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:42.400 is still the biggest front and framework out there. However, 55 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:47.719 the View community is still going strong. It's very vibrant. 56 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:48.680 We had. 57 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.639 It was a three day event, the first day being 58 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:56.879 a workshop, the second two days being talks, and of 59 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.080 course Avenue was there and we had this nice, quaint 60 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.120 conference center that we were at to give all the talks. 61 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:06.960 But it was really just cool to see all the 62 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.879 kind of the big names in the View community come 63 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.960 together and talk, and I think like just being there, 64 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.039 just see the hallway track itself was worth it. Of 65 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.680 course the talks were interesting. I gave a lightning talk. 66 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:25.280 It was on AI. That's another theme that I saw 67 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.439 a lot during the conference is just a lot. I 68 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.120 think every probably front end conference in the last two 69 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.400 years have had at least one talk or two on AI, 70 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.759 and I think this was no exception. So it was 71 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:42.319 really interesting to hear everybody's opinions about how they're using AI. 72 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.280 I'm sure you guys had many podcasts recently about that too, 73 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:48.639 or at least touched on that. So it was really cool, 74 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.199 like being in person and to hear everybody talk about it. 75 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.199 But like some really nice, really cool people that I 76 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:58.280 got to meet again was Alex Rivier. He did a 77 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:02.400 really interesting talk on props and View three. Daniel Rowe, 78 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.520 you've had him on this this podcast before, right, Yeah, 79 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:07.919 we had. I know I talked to him a bunch 80 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.199 of times on Views on. 81 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:10.599 Views on View. 82 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.120 I don't remember for sure if we've had him on 83 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:14.120 JavaScript Jabber. 84 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.680 He did a KNUCKS talk like the state of building 85 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.680 Advanced Apps next some more of a NUCKS type talk. 86 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.839 And every time, every time you hear about NUCKS, I 87 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.000 just think they're just doing so much and it's just 88 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.600 so cool that's happening in that community. So you don't know. 89 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.439 That's like a meta framework for review. It's sort of 90 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:37.639 the equivalent from React to next js's view to nuxs JS. 91 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.800 They have different approaches though, like in course in the 92 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:46.079 React ecosystem, with next they've really leaned into the server components. 93 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.800 While the Knucks side is still by and large client components, 94 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:52.720 but you do have server side rendering, you do have 95 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:57.160 API routes, but it's not like server components by default. 96 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.480 So and hearing him talk about that was interesting. And 97 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.639 I also love of every talk that I go to 98 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.800 at one of these conferences where they have audience participation, 99 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.759 and this is no different like giving during the talk, 100 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.240 we could do emojis. So have you ever been to 101 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:14.439 a talk they've done that, Like they're like, hey, if 102 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.079 you open up, they'll have a QR code and you'll 103 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:18.959 scan it on your phone during the talk, and then 104 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.920 you can press a button and send emoji and it'll 105 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:23.000 show up on the screen. 106 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:25.639 I've seen things like that. I don't know if I've 107 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.040 seen that in particular. 108 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.399 Although I will say someone thought they were funny, so 109 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.199 I'm sure they like created a script. So at one 110 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.240 point there was like hundreds of emojis on the screen 111 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.720 coming down of while he was talking. It was still enough. 112 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.000 I think he rate limited enough so it wasn't to 113 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:45.240 the point where you couldn't see the slides completely, but 114 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.319 it was like quite a bit. It was like hundreds, 115 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:49.920 and I don't think the audience was pressing like the 116 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.560 one hundred times. 117 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.040 That's really funny. 118 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:57.600 There's always got to be somebody pushing the limits. 119 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.240 I actually was once at a conference where some one 120 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.800 did a similar thing, but someone totally like messed up 121 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:08.079 their presentation by sending them like thousands, thousands of things 122 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:08.600 on screen. 123 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.120 Well, that's programmers, I did well. 124 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:18.759 I did the lightning talk on creating different specs with 125 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:22.240 AI tooling. So one thing that we've seen is there's 126 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:26.199 this vibe coding way of developers are creating apps where 127 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.120 you just kind of use cursor, windsurf to go in 128 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.519 and create an app, and then you're get help copilot 129 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.000 and then you're kind of asking it things and it's 130 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:40.319 updating it. Well, I think there's better ways to do that, 131 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.759 and I called this like a spec development way of 132 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.439 doing it, where you're asking the AI to help you 133 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.319 create a design document first and then having it create 134 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.319 an implementation guide from that design document. So I listed 135 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:58.839 out ways you can use Amazon qcli, which is a 136 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.519 tool that we have that's basically free. It's free with 137 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.720 something called builder ID. You don't need a credit card 138 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.720 or anything. You just sign up with an email address 139 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.319 and then you can start using it on the command line, 140 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.920 and you can ask it like, hey, help me go 141 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:19.639 through and at a landing page or ID as I'm 142 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.839 using a can you do this? And it can do this, 143 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:25.519 So it can do all sorts of things. And so 144 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:27.920 I walk through this whole presentation of me using it, 145 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:33.360 using this way of creating this design document to help 146 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.040 create more complicated apps where vibe coding doesn't quite reach. 147 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.240 Yeah, that makes sense. I have to admit that I've 148 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:44.279 been doing quite a bit of that. I mean for work. Yeah, 149 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:48.639 probably eighty seventy eighty percent of the code is stuff 150 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.759 that I'm just writing. But I do find that, you know, 151 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:53.800 I'll ask the AI to help me do something and 152 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.240 it'll just, you know, off it goes, and you know, 153 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.199 it gets it sixty seventy percent correct, and then I 154 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.839 can fix the rest and then I put in whatever 155 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:03.399 it is that I need to do and then do 156 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:03.920 it again. 157 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:06.800 So I don't know if that's vibe coding, but yeah. 158 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:10.879 It is. It's kind of an overused term, I think nowadays, 159 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:15.040 but I'd consider that more vibe coding. I guess, if 160 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:18.000 you want, in the purest sense, it's where you literally 161 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.480 just prompt over and over again, and you never touch 162 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.639 the code at all, and you're just kind of changing 163 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:28.639 the prompts over and over again to get what you want. 164 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.360 And I think as us developers, that does get a 165 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.919 little frustrating. Frustrating, So I'm always like going into the 166 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.679 code fixing things, trying to make it better, or doing 167 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.120 in line edits instead of doing it that other way. 168 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.519 Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense. 169 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:48.799 And I have friends that have just been straight up 170 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:52.720 vibe coding because they don't really understand how the code works. 171 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.759 But what I've been seeing a lot where I'm at 172 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:58.480 is that, Yeah, a lot of people are using it 173 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.840 as kind of that tool where it's I don't know 174 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:03.879 where to start, or this should be something that the 175 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.960 code can you know, it can ingest enough and then 176 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.320 you know, give me a faster solution that I can 177 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.960 come up with on my own. And then yeah, with 178 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.320 my understanding and skill set, I can I can vastly 179 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.279 increase the timeframe. 180 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:18.320 Under which it does whatever it does. 181 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:20.559 And so I'm seeing a lot of developers using it 182 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:24.000 that way to kind of speed up their process. 183 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.240 Yeah, I think that's exactly the right way to do it. Yeah, 184 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.360 I will say too, good. I was going to say 185 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.600 in general too, it was super fun conference meeting everyone, 186 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.159 and I think that's half the part of going to 187 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.080 these conferences. But I kind of want to say, like 188 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:42.320 a little PSA just for everyone listening that it. I 189 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.279 know it's hard because just the economy and some people 190 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:47.679 can go places cannot, but try try to go to 191 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.799 some of these events because I definitely seen I'm a 192 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.039 senior developer advocate at AWS, so I'm part of my 193 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.440 job is to go to conferences to teach people to 194 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.159 meet people, right, But I've seen like the conference overall, 195 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:03.440 the tendance and a lot of these in person conferences 196 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.919 kind of they're just not great, like a lot view 197 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.320 comforted well, but it's still like in general, it's down 198 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.519 still from COVID and just a lot of people have 199 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.120 not are not going to these events as much. They're 200 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:21.679 not going to meet ups as much, and that's a 201 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:24.240 really shame. So hopefully we can just get more people 202 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.120 and start growing again. And some of these conferences that 203 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:29.440 it does have a lot of I think has a 204 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.480 lot of benefits. 205 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:34.840 Yeah, I agree, you know, for my job at Price Picks, 206 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.159 I'm mostly doing Ruby on rails, but a lot of 207 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.080 the lot of the conferences out there, Yeah, they're attendance 208 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.120 is low. I will say that the exception in the 209 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.200 Rails World is Rails World, and that's put on by 210 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.799 the Rails Foundation. And the thing is is seeing I 211 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:51.679 think there are a couple of things that are going on, 212 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:54.519 and one of them is the economy. Rails World sells 213 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:57.000 out in like twenty minutes there now, and you know, 214 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.279 and it's a decent sized conference. I think that the difference, though, 215 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.399 is is that people know what they're going to get, 216 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.159 and they know they're going to get what they want. 217 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:07.279 And so some of these conferences that have been around 218 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:10.279 for a while, folks are showing up because they're invested 219 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.120 in something like view for Viewcom, but it doesn't have 220 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.559 that promise of being the thing that they want or 221 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:19.320 giving and delivering. 222 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.039 What they think they need. 223 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.279 And I think some of it is sort of the 224 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:27.840 momentum you know that killed the conference momentum having COVID. 225 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.279 But I think also there's a lot going on with 226 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.600 people just you know, it's like, Okay, well if I 227 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:37.360 go and take two or three days off to attend, 228 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.440 is it going to be worth it? And I think 229 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.759 that's on the conference to kind of give that to 230 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:45.759 people and say, hey, we are innovating and here's what 231 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.279 you're going to get. And then also just understanding that, Yeah, 232 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.960 the hallway track, at least in my opinion, is worth 233 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.240 half the ticket price, and I don't think people realize that. 234 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:03.000 So I echo your call to attend the in person conferences. 235 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.159 If you can't, then yeah, participate online if you can. 236 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:07.360 And then the meetups. 237 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.200 They just started the meetup here again for a couple 238 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.919 of the technology areas that I care about, and they're 239 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.799 not super well attended, but they're still very very helpful 240 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.320 because you'll have somebody else show up and talk through 241 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.799 something you haven't heard, and so it's like, oh, that 242 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:25.320 looks really useful and I can use that at work 243 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.480 and you know. Anyway, Yeah, there's a lot to like 244 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:30.960 about that, So I agree people ought to really be 245 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.360 looking at it. 246 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:31.559 Yeah. 247 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:33.480 Also, in my two cents here, I've been when I 248 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.240 was living in the djupil world, I went to Drouple 249 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.080 Con every year, and like Eric mentioned, the Hallway track 250 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:43.159 was was was probably just as important, if not more important, 251 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:45.440 in the sessions because the sessions are always recorded and 252 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.240 you can come back and watch them later. But one 253 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:49.759 of the things they would do with Drouple cons was 254 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.960 they would have a coder lounge where you know, everybody 255 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.720 could just sit there and get together and work on 256 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:59.120 a project, and you would see stuff come from those sessions, 257 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.279 you know, that would become modules or you know, different 258 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:04.960 functionality later. I can remember one particular year, I was 259 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.440 dealing with a sort of a thorny issue with what's 260 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.720 called the migration, which was, you know, where you'd set 261 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.240 up a new site and then migrate all your data 262 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:14.960 from your old site to a new site and fitted 263 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.399 into the new structure. Couldn't figure it out, and I 264 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:19.159 happened to go into the coder lounge and here's a 265 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.600 guy that maintains the module that I'm working with, and 266 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:23.679 sat down ten minutes and he helped me figure it out, 267 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.159 and I was good to go from there. You know, 268 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.639 other communications, you know, connections I made with people at 269 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.480 conferences that I was able to leverage later, or you know. 270 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.519 The big thing is, you know, in an online world, 271 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.240 actually meeting somebody in real life that you only know 272 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.519 online is always, you know, fantastic to do. And unfortunately 273 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.600 I haven't been able to get to a view comp yet, 274 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:48.240 but I just changed jobs and the organization I'm at 275 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.960 now not only do we run our own conferences in 276 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:55.120 the networking space, but we also encouraged going to conferences 277 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.759 and making presentations and stuff like that. So my boss 278 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.399 and I were already talking about going to view comp 279 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.840 next year. So I'm really really looking forward to be 280 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.120 able to do that. But the in person stuff is 281 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.960 really worthwhile. You get to you get more than you 282 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.360 know if you do it right. You got to get 283 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.200 out and meet people. Can't just sit around and go 284 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:15.879 to sessions and then go back to your hotel room. 285 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:17.120 You know, you got to make an effort to get 286 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.039 out and meet people. But it's always worth it. 287 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:21.960 Yeah, I should clarify if you haven't picked up on 288 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.120 it by now. The hallway track is basically the socializing 289 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:27.720 that happens outside of the sessions, right, So a lot 290 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:31.120 of times you'll I can't I can't describe how many 291 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:33.720 times I've been to conferences and yeah, I've just been 292 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.919 standing right outside of one of the lecture halls and 293 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.240 just chatting with people. And I've done this for podcasting 294 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:45.159 conferences and for programming conferences, and the connections are priceless. 295 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.720 I mean people just you know, you'll find people that 296 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.440 have solved the problem you're trying to solve most of 297 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:55.279 the time. Oh yeah, and so just having those conversations, 298 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.799 oh well what are you doing. Oh well, well there's this, this, 299 00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:59.759 and this, or we ran into that last year and 300 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:01.919 we solved it this way. And then the other thing 301 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.200 that you run into is just yeah, beyond the connections, 302 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:08.919 it's yeah, people giving you those those technical ideas and 303 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.039 so yeah. So it may be somebody that you interface 304 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:14.679 with a bunch of times after the conference, Okay, well 305 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:16.600 how did you get past this part of this problem? 306 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.440 And then other times it's yeah, it's just you know, 307 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.240 it's hey, I hadn't even thought of that, and you know, 308 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.080 it takes you down a path that solves a bunch 309 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.840 of problems for you or your company, and anyway, it's 310 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:29.919 it's really terrific. 311 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.000 So yeah, I remember I was at droupol Con one 312 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.320 time and there's this one thorny issue I've been trying 313 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:39.080 to address, a particular side I wanted to create and 314 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.799 was real data management heavy. And this is back before 315 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.279 a lot of the tools that we have now that 316 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.679 make things so much easier before Laravell, before Inertia, before 317 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.679 any of the jobascript frameworks where you pretty much just 318 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.399 has CMSs. And I met a guy named Travis Tidwell, 319 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.559 a Drubel who was talking, who was talking about a 320 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:58.919 drouple module. But he ended up forming a company called 321 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:03.000 form Io, which is really sweet form rendering platform that 322 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:04.000 uses JavaScript. 323 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.320 And I was going to say, the name sounded familiar, 324 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:07.639 that's where okay. 325 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:09.480 Yeah, yeah, And we've had Travis on a couple of times. 326 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:12.279 And that was in the days of Angular one, before 327 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.879 view was really out. I think React was fairly new, 328 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:20.720 Node was fairly new, and his platform used the They 329 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:24.159 were Mongo Express, Node and Angular, so the mean stack 330 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:28.879 and it's expanded since then to be fairly JavaScript you know, 331 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.720 agnostic in terms of framework. Anyway, I said, hey, yeah, 332 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.639 this is my site, you know, I want to do this. 333 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:36.320 Would form Io. 334 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:36.559 Work for this? 335 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:38.159 He goes, yeah, it'd be perfect, you could do this 336 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.080 and this. So I ended up starting to play with it, 337 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.320 and I pestered him so much that he asked me 338 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:43.799 to actually come to some work for them, and I 339 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:45.519 actually did a bunch of work for a form io 340 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:48.799 in the in Angular one and then moved on to 341 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.559 view after that. But all that from you know, a 342 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:53.600 two minute conversation at a conference, yep. 343 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:57.639 So you definitely have to be deliberate to make sure 344 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.879 that you get those conversations, because it is easy. And 345 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.079 I've been to conferences by myself where I've like gone 346 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.279 to the talks, went to my hotel room, maybe did 347 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.920 the after party the last day, and that's it. But yeah, 348 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.559 you have definitely be deliberate to like talk to the 349 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:17.640 people during between the talks. Actually, in fact, a couple 350 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.119 of people I've hung out with, they they'll like skip 351 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.759 a talk, Like if they find talk that they don't 352 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:25.519 think is interesting, they'll skip it, and then they'll just 353 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.160 hang out and wander around and talk to people that 354 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.960 are in the hallways or all day. Usually lots of 355 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.440 places will have sponsors too. 356 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.880 Yeah, they'll some kind well usually, I mean the presentations 357 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:39.079 are recorded anyway, so you can watch it at any time, 358 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.240 you know, so unless you specifically want to interact with 359 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.920 the presenter or somebody in there, you can always watch 360 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.880 those later and take advantage of the the other stuff. 361 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:49.519 I know, one thing that Druplicon used to do that 362 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.160 I loved was so much fun was they did a 363 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.559 trivia night, and so people would get together in teams 364 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.400 and they'd have somebody up on the dais, you know, 365 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.079 answering the questions and stuff, than you'd record answers and 366 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.480 they'd score. So much fun just because it was so 367 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.640 much geek humor. Unless you weren't in the community, you 368 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.400 might not get half of the jokes because they're so geeky. 369 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:13.839 And one of the favorite things I can still remember 370 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.200 from when we did at the World War II Museum 371 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.920 in New Orleans one year was the team names alone. 372 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.160 Just looking at the roster of the team names, the 373 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.319 names that people came up cracked me up so bad. 374 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.839 But that was so much fun and one of the 375 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.599 highlights of the conference every year for sure. 376 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.720 Yeah, Eric, I'm curious. Were there big announcements at View 377 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.680 kof new things in View or in the community. 378 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.240 It's more like incremental. It feels like they're incrementally going 379 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.000 from View three came out a couple of years ago. 380 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.200 They're being very cautious about the updates. Things are kind 381 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.119 of taking longer. We heard a little bit more about 382 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:58.559 vat right in the conference because Evenue is basically juggling 383 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:00.880 both projects View and Vet. 384 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.480 And isn't isn't involved in what was vzero? 385 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.039 Void zero void zero void zero? 386 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.920 Yes, yeah, exactly, So that was another He talked a 387 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.920 little bit about Void zero and the new company, and 388 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.839 then the Vapor Mode, which is this new compilation strategy 389 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.200 for View. He's talked about it before in previous conferences, 390 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.559 but it was just more detail, more information about it. 391 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.319 It's funny a lot of times, it's more a lot 392 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.160 of these updates are like, we're just making things faster, 393 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:29.880 which is good, and our compilots are becoming smarter, and 394 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:34.680 now we have this new built system behind. So that 395 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.200 was all very very interesting to see that, you know, 396 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.400 the community still moving forward his and I think he 397 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:43.359 did have some q and as. I'm not sure if 398 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.519 it was this one or the last one I had, 399 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:49.039 but he always gets asked like, how are you juggling 400 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:54.079 the work between VAT and View and are you like 401 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.720