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Speaker 1: As far as I'm concerned. And it's partly because, well,

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when we started this conversation, I said, for example, that

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it appears to be the case that a description of

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the structure through which we see the world is a story.

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We see the world through a story. And so that's

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a remarkable thing. This is a remarkable discovery, and it's

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emerged probably in the last sixteen years.

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Speaker 2: This is true, and this is actually a good reputation

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of this Goofball's worldview, as if science could tell you

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anything about values, anything about meaning, anything about telos telos.

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Science is merely a tool for investigating the natural world.

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That's it. It cannot tell you the origins of life.

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It can't tell you meaning, It can't tell you any

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of these types of questions ethics, oughts, et cetera, et cetera,

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et cetera. It's a very limited tool. Is that dinosaurs?

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What they got damn velociraptors running in the background. What

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the heck is that tell what they look like? They're

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in Arizona somewhere. So where are they where there's two

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veloss rapp They're at damn Jurassic Park. Dude, watch out

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forget a dude Hey, look, we need to get Jeff Goldbloom.

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They're in Jurassic Park. You see them, Velossi raptors back there.

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Get Jeff Goldbloom in there to set them all straight

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on freaking chaos math, the eighty kiosh kiosh math. The

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one thing I know is that life, life is life,

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is certain to survive, right, we need some gold Bloom

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action in this in this room here, since they're at Jurassic.

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Speaker 1: Park, sixty years in multiple disciplines, because we have to

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prioritize our facts, and so we prior to them according

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to a particular pattern. And there are patterns that seem

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to work and to propagate themselves properly and to orient

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cultures towards life abundant. And there are other patterns, the

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pattern of Cain, for example, that lead to absolute, bloody devastation.

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And I don't know exactly how to construe that sort

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of truth. But we talked about the oppression of women

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for examples like, how do you make a case on

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purely factual grounds that women should be treated as equals.

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Speaker 3: It's a moral question, man, I know, that's exactly exactly

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I was dealing with a fatal question, which is did

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Jesus have a father, do you won't answer it.

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Speaker 1: Jesus father and a heavenly father, like almost all mythological heroes.

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Speaker 3: That's the bone of a virgin. Then so he is.

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You're saying that Jesus was not bone of a virgin.

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Speaker 1: I said first of all that I don't I don't

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know how to mediate the fact value dichotomy in that.

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Speaker 2: I think we need to take a brief interlude here

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to get some real scientific, just you know, decisiveness on

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the matter from our favorite chaos mathematician and game spitner,

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Jeffrey Goldbloom. And if you don't know, guy, we got

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a lot of single guys out there in Ohio, a

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lot of single men. You want to hit on a

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blonde woman, You're you're at You're at the park, You're

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at the zoo, you're at Jurassic Park. You want to

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hit on some blonde woman? How are you going to

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do it? I'm gonna show you how. This is the

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jeff Goldbloom model a game, right. And by the way,

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it almost works because wasn't she with uh freaking sam

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Neel or whatever, I can't remember, fly effect a.

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Speaker 3: Butterfly and flap chains and cooking in Central parking range.

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Speaker 2: He's spitting that butterfly chaos butterfly game.

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Speaker 3: That I go too fast, I go to fast.

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Speaker 2: I did give it. Give me that big glass of water.

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We're gonna conduct an experiment. Yeah, give me, give me that.

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I don't even know. It's just an example. Now put

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your hand fly by the way. He's he's straight up

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cucking Sam Neil right there. Sam Neil's over here like

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freaking Dicky Dawkins, obsessed with you know, palaeontology and a

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munch of them fake ass dinosaurs. Right, he's over here

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looking at raptor ass. Meanwhile, Jeff gold blooms over here

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stealing his girl.

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Speaker 3: Now, let's say drop waterfalls in your hand.

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Speaker 2: Which way has drop off? Guys, you're paying attention. How

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do you get a girlfriend? Right here? Use some of

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that smart gold bloom game, some of that science game.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, now freezing hand, don't move. I'm gonna do

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the same things, start with the same same place again.

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Speaker 2: So use a butterfly chaos magic cow's math. Excuse me,

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throw in a little quantum phone. The chicks love that. Right,

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He's gonna let's say change it change why boom. It

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worked as tiny variations, uh, the the orientation of the

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hairs in your hands being above to stending your vessels

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and perfectionists skin that gold Bloom game right there. I see,

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That's what I'm talking about. And then on top of that,

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not only is is he an amazing leather clad ladies man,

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he also can't expound upon ethics from a scientific perspective.

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So the very thing that Dawkins is looking for, how

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can I base ethics in science? I have no answer

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to this question. Why doesn't he turn to Jeff Goldbloom.

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Speaker 3: After that absolutely spectacular design said no expense in the world.

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Speaker 2: That's the right you ready, you'll ready to learn of

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humility before nature that's being displayed here. I see a

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lot of a lack of humility before nature in this audience.

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This audience has got a lot of hubris, a lot

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of quantum hubris. I see quantum hubris right here in

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this audience. Staggers, Well, thank you, I'm staggered by the

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quantum hubris in this audience, doctor Malcolm. But I think

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things are a little bit different than you and I

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have fear. Yeah, I know they're a lot worse. No, wait,

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a second, Now we haven't like this. He's got like

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a Jewish Elvis thing going on here. Right, He's like Jelvis. Right,

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he's got it going on. Baby, Wait a second, now

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we haven't even seen.

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Speaker 4: Don't let him talk.

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Speaker 3: There's no reason I want to hear it.

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Speaker 2: Let quantum Jewish Elvis talk.

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Speaker 4: Don't you see the danger John inherent?

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Speaker 3: What you're doing here?

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Speaker 2: Genetic power is the most awesome forced the planets ever seen.

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Speaker 4: But you wielded like a kid that's found his dad.

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Speaker 2: It's hardly appropriate.

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Speaker 4: Start hurling gerization if I mean, I'll.

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Speaker 2: Tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're

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that you're using here. It didn't require any discipline to

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attain it. Oh boom roasted. Let's get back to this.

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Speaker 1: I said the same thing about the risums.

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Speaker 3: It's not it's not a value. It's a simple fact.

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I mean, did did did a man have intercourse with

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Mary and produce Jesus? That's that's a factual question. There's

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not a value question.

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Speaker 4: You must understand what we're being asked here.

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Speaker 5: That that even if you think that, say, the author

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of the biblical texts in tended much more significance than

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a simple scientific analysis of events. Professor Dawkins is interested

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in scientific truth. That's the kind of truth that he's

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interested in. And even if you think it's irrelevant to

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the point of what the Gospel authors we're getting at,

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that first needs to be clarified before you can then

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begin actually uncovering what the stories are about.

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Speaker 2: So, oh, man that I had this. I'm sorry I

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had the I didn't realize the mute was on because whatever.

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Look I'm sick. I'm sorry, but the people in the

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Twitter have heard it. So I'm just reading super chats anyway,

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So I apologize that if you wanted your superchat, maybe

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I should reread these and answer and really quick. I

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didn't realize it was still muted. Let me go back

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and read. I'm gonna read these supertests really quick because

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I didn't realize it was muted. As a new inquirre

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of Orthodoxy, should I go out and still be involved

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in sharing the Gospel with Pride fest and Abrach and Mills.

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My answer was that you should be catechized before trying

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to do that. Hallowed Night, five dollars, How will we

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ever debate again? If we have Vatican funko pops, we

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won't was my answer. Should it be Project Skeptic instead

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of Project pat Yes and Project Peterson funk luster five dollars.

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I know it's not only topic, but what about Catholicism

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and the history of Judaism. Yes, I'm familiar with that.

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What is Orthodox conception of brain and body or mind body?

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It's that mind is a property of human nature. Human

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nature is made up of body, mind, soul, and will.

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Human persons are the have or or the subject that

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has the nature. So mine is a property of nature.

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It is the active state of conscious awareness. I don't

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know much more like, what can we say much more

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than that? In your book you cite Alvin Noe. Yeah,

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but that was in the context of a philosophical discussion.

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We wouldn't cite Alvin Noe has anything to do with

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Orthodox theology storm the cat ten dollars. I read that

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in ancient Rome financial centers had Saturn as the locus

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of their financial sinners had Saturn temples, and many glib

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Elite have Saturn symbolism. That could be an unconscious spiritual

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kind of connection there. I don't know that they're always

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necessarily trying to think back to the ancient world. Also,

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I read that Canaanite equivalent of Saturn is the molocher

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rim fan. Yes, that's a human sacrifice, Deity. Pano five dollars.

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If you were going to debate Peterson, how would you

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structure your opening statement. I'm reading through these fasts because

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I read them and I didn't realize it was muted.

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My answer was that I would do what Peterson does

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where he tries to go at the atheist with layer three,

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the moral tropological. My response would be to go at

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Peterson with layer two and points out that three presposes

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two and two presupposes one. That was my answer, Sea

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Bass five dollars. Jay, what's a good response to a

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Catholic that says that Orthodox Church has no unity because

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has no authority? My answer was that the that's if

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a Roman Catholic argue that they're re refuting themselves, it's

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a self own because if the Church of the first

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thousand years was the Roman Catholic Church, then that means

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the Church of the Council of Ephesus was the Romancolic

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church that granted autocephaly, and so therefore the Romancolic Church

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itself is refuting itself. So hopefully you see how to

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see who it is. That's a great own Anti pac

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Man ten dollars, thank you so much. Or the doxphernis

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five dollars. The septuagent reads, my crime is too great

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for me to be forgiven. In Justesis four thirteen, the

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KJV reads, my punishment is greater that I can bear.

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We see that a lack of faith in Kin is

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the true issue, not an angry God like Protestants thing.

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That's interesting. I didn't know the difference of the septuagient there.

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That makes sense to DC. Would working three dollars? Appreciate

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that MKG five dollars. JM mute Jay you're still im muted. Yes,

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I figured it out, Thank you so much. Mccolvin five dollars.

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The utube stream is muted, thank you, MKG ten dollars.

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I got caught off guard when O'Connors of the verse

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needs to be clarified in thirty eight thirteen. Okay, let's see.

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Speaker 5: Well you can then begin actually uncovering what the stories

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are about. So I think Professor Dowkins is asking from

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a scientific perspective, and maybe you think that scientific approach

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is wrong. But if you just take it for a moment.

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Maybe this is how we find out that it is wrong.

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Let's take a scientific approach, ask the question did this occur?

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Speaker 1: I think that it's inappropriate to use a question like

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that to attempt to undermine the validity of the entire

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what would you say deep mythological enterprise?

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Speaker 5: Suppose we were asking out of interests. Suppose that we

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were all here about Christians, maybe even UNI and Christians,

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and we thought this is interesting over dinner. Do you

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think it really happened? Like scientifically? Would your answer just

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be I don't know, yes, and you wouldn't consider it.

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I mean, it's not an inappropriate question to ask just

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on a point of interest, right, did this really occur?

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And I think so often people are asking you that,

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and especially given the context of this conversation, we've heard

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everything that you're saying about metaphor and myth. But because

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the question is still then being asked, did it really happen?

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Speaker 4: You know that that's what you're being asked, And the.

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Speaker 5: Way you just so easily said yes, I wonder why

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you struggle to do that in so many other circumstances.

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Speaker 1: I think because I don't look at the situation the

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same the way that doctor Dawkins and I look at

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the situation are really quite different and at many, many,

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many levels.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: So even on the meme question, for example, you know,

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like I know the literature on the history of religious ideas.

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I see how these ideas have battled across millennia in

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a manner that is very reminiscent to me of the

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same sort of claim that doctor Dawkins is putting forward

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with regards to meme. I know that literature. Doctor Dawkins

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doesn't know that literature. It's very difficult for me to

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communicate from within the confines of that literature because it's

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indeed and we're and.

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Speaker 2: We're were we muted for that? Hopefully we weren't muted

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for the whole Jeff Goldbloom showing up?

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Speaker 6: Was that?

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Speaker 2: Was that muted? It shouldn't be muted? Now, are we good?

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Did y'all hear the wisdom of gold Bloom? I think

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the chat's behind No, you didn't hurt Oh this damn mute?

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Oh my gosh, wait, you did hear that? Okay, as

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long as you got the wisdom of gold Bloom. I

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was proud of that. I thought that was funny. Okay, good,

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Then all you missed was super chats, is okay? I

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reread the super chats.

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Speaker 1: Dealing with things that we don't understand the relationship between

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metaphoric truths and value predicated truth and factual truth. We

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don't understand that. It's a big problem. We cannot there's

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no evidence whatsoever from the scientific perspective that we can

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orient ourselves in the world merely in consequence of the facts.

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Speaker 2: Sure, this is actually a really good point that Peterson's making.

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This reminds me of an essay. I think it's called demarcation.

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Let me see, yes, so this reminds me of an

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essay by Manion. I'm sure you guys are aware of

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Russ Russ Manion, who Lord have mercy. I think he

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did pass away. Of course we referred to a lot

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of Russ Manion's papers. I think this Manion essay is

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referring to what Peterson's talking about. So Russ Manyon called

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this essay demarcation and a meaningful research project. And I

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think what Peterson. I'm going for memory because I haven't

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read this essay in several years, but I think what

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Peterson is talking about is the same point that's being

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made by Manion in this paper that you basically there

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is no clear way to demarcate when science is giving

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you meaningful truths and propositions versus pseudoscience in the sense

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of comparing it to say truths in literature, like there's

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no clear quote scientific way to demarket these things. I

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think that's right. I'm trying to remember this essay. We

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need to pause here, for the idea that nature signifies

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things to scientists is going to need a narrative of

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its own. We don't even need to be concerned about

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probable narratives at this point. We just need a narrative

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that is at least possible. That is, we need a

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narrative that is meaningful. In the prior paragraph we saw,

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we placed the words somehow in italics for that purpose,

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somehow as a placeholder for a narrative which exists explain

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nature and scientists that can have such a rich relationship.

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Most just leave us somehow alone for fear of too

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many possible explanations. But there are not so many possible explanations.

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There are only two that we need to be concerned with.

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These are the same two possible explanations for the world itself.

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In the end, that special relationship between nature and sciences

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exists either intentionally or by accident. So this is intentionality

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versus a purely accidental world. Intentionality would then be a

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world where there is tellos. The first story is easy.

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It is not difficult to imagine a story where scientists

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are what they are on purpose, for a purpose, and

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in which nature is created for some purpose. What if

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nature was meant to be read? What if reading nature

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was the very purpose for which scientists were made. What

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if nature was made for an epistemic environment, in an

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environment which signifies as clear and reveals something to be

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a sign. What if scientists were intentionally made to be

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epistemic beings with epistemic faculties for the purpose of observing

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and interpreting those signs. What if reading nature was a

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form of communion between scientists and the maker of nature.

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It's a very neat story. It's a simple story, and

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perhaps a story that if it's not true, it's a

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story which even ojectable to those who prefer an accidental

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or natural story. Nonetheless, it is a story which explains

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why nature and scientists are in an epistemic relationship. In

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that sense, it makes sense. Is a possible narrative. What's

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the alternative narrative that the Dawkins worldview must prefer. The

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alternative story is easy too. If nature and scientists are

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not what they are intentionally, then they are what they

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are by accident, and their stories are accidental. But nature

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as an accident just is the case. Scientists as accidents

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also just are. Their relationship just is, and anything we

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might want to say or think about them just is.

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But just is just means there is no narrative for

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that somehow, because just is just means there is no

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reason or explanation whatsoever for an epistemic relationship that is.

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The accidental story is that there is no story. Nature

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does not mean anything at all. A purely accidental state

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of affairs signifies nothing. It is absurd to declare at

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the outset that there is no reason whatsoever why anything

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is what it is, and then go on in the

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name of science Dawkins and give reasons for why things

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are as they are. In an accidental world, there are

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no signs, and if there are no signs, the world

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does not signify anything. In other words, there is no

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story and there is no science. Or meaning. Look how

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absurd this makes the entire gibberish of Dawkins. Now, if

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you want to read this out, say, I want to

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link it right here. It's an energetic procession right there.

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It's a great russ many in essay, and it's called

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on demarcation and the signs of nature. It is making

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I believe the point that Peterson's making here.

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Speaker 1: That's a fact, and it's a fact. It's been detailed

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out in great detail in the last sixty years by

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people from a variety of different disciplines. We have to

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prioritize the facts. That's a value hierarchy. There may be

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true and false ways of prioritizing facts, but you can't

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determine the truth or falsehood of the way that you

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prioritize fact by making reference to the facts. That's a

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big problem.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let's let's let's talk about that as perhaps a

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slight detail here, because I think we do need to

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come back to this christ resurrection thing. But Professor Dawkins,

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would you say that underlying the scientific scientific enterprise is

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a fundamentally unscientific assumption. You can, you can make scientific

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investigations in the world, but in order to do. So,

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you need to choose what to prioritize, You need to

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choose what to investigate. You also need to value the truth.

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You need to have a value and a motivation for

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doing it. In the first place. Those kinds of things

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cannot themselves be scientifically justified. And so does the scientific

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scientific enterprise have an unscientific assumption in the space.

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Speaker 3: I suppose it does. I mean, I think we. I

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think that maybe just be Jordan and Richen, but by

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the way of a group, I think that Jordan prioritizes

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myth and I prioritize fact, and I think myth is

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kind of vaguely interesting, but it's not the spell and

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end or of my life, I think.

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Speaker 2: But you understand that, as we just read in the

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in the Manion paper, there is no such thing as fact.

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Fact is an illusion, just as much as the spaghetti

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monster that this goober is always talking about, right, It's

356
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a metaphysical myth fantasy. There is no fact. What is

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a fact because the fact presupposes a meaningful signification between

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events in the external world and the perceiver of those facts.

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And we just saw in the manual paper. The world

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is pure and true and only accidentalism, then there is

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no meaning at all.

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Speaker 3: It's somewhat secondary to scientific fact, sort of facts that

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tell us how old the universe is, how old the

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world is, the history of life, the engineering achievements of

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landing a spacecraft on a comage, these are the things

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that science can do. And as I said, the predictions

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of pantum theory, to come back to that, the predictions

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of pantum theory which are verified to a sufficient lamp.

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Speaker 2: Have you noticed I just realized how many times these

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people include themselves in this domain of what engineers do. Bro,

371
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what have you invented? He's over here talking like he's

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damn Elon Musk or some shit, right, Like he's inventing

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all this high tier you know, the high tech stuff

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because of science. And then he's part of that. You're

375
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not part of some collective of engineers. Do you have

376
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an engineering degree? It's funny how many things he talks

377
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about when he requires credentials of anyone else to talk

378
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about it, which he has no credentials in. Right, So

379
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here he is talking about all these engineering achievement achievements,

380
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as if that's any way equivalent to the so called

381
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life sciences, which life sciences just means we sit around

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and we come up with weird theories about what we

383
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thought monkeys were doing eleven million years ago in trees.

384
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I'm not joking, right. Life sciences is not the equivalent

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of engine And because I have a lot of respect

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for engineers, I think they're real scientists. They're people who

387
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do real mathematical, technological scientific work. And people like this

388
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,240
are like sued Midwick con men who don't do anything

389
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like that but claim themselves to. They claim to be

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the voice in the face of what actual engineers produced.

391
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It's really annoying.

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Speaker 3: We're investing places such it's equivalent to predicting the wits

393
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,200
of North America to warm hairsbreadth. Now, that is, however

394
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difficult quantum theory is to understand. That is what you

395
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,279
can get from quantum theory. Now, the mysteries of the Bible,

396
00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:41,160
if they are mysteries, aren't in the same league.

397
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Speaker 2: I mean, they just how did we get back today?

398
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Did he bring back quantum shit? I thought I thought

399
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,720
we were already through the quantum foam. We waded through

400
00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:52,039
the quantum foam, and now we're back to it. What

401
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,240
is he talking about? How did he get to quantum

402
00:26:54,279 --> 00:27:04,680
crap from we were just talking about, did I skip

403
00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:06,000
ahead somehow.

404
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: That science can do? And as I said, the predictions

405
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,640
of quantum theory to come back to that, the prediction

406
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,880
of quantum theory, which are verified to a sufficient number

407
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,839
of bessing places that it's equivalent to predicting the books

408
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,559
of North America to one hairsbreadth.

409
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: Dude, what kind of bullshit is this? Who actually believes this?

410
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:36,720
So he's number one? No, how this outlandish, absurd measurement

411
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,359
is a measurement no one can measure. He's saying that

412
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:46,799
the ability of quantum gibberish to predict things is the

413
00:27:46,839 --> 00:27:50,519
equivalent of predicting the width of North America to one

414
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:55,319
hair's breadth. What who could even test that or measure that?

415
00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:00,359
So here's the king of testing and measuring things making

416
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:07,720
some preposterous claim that quantum physics capabilities are equivalent to this.

417
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,480
Like what is am I the only person who hears

418
00:28:12,599 --> 00:28:17,799
this and thinks what the hell does that mean? That

419
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:25,720
is no? That has no That's like complete gibberish. It's

420
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:31,599
like saying I have created the world's most accurate, invisible,

421
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:41,759
infinitesimal measuring device. And its successfully measured the length with

422
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:47,440
perfect precision of every NAT's dick. So we now know

423
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,960
the perfect scientific average of NAT dick from my infinitesimal

424
00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:59,599
perfect quantum natdick measurer. You can't see it, but it's

425
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,799
perfectly accurate, so we know it's true. What the heck

426
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:04,680
are you talking about?

427
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: Now? That is, however difficult quantum theory is to understand.

428
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,079
That is what you can get from quantum theory. Now,

429
00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:16,119
the mysteries of the Bible, if they are mysteries, aren't

430
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,200
in the same league. I mean, they just don't cut it.

431
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: What in the heck is like? What is he even

432
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:34,640
talking about? Like, let's say, quantum. He said it was

433
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:48,079
a Richard Fineman quote, right, quantum mechanics measure North America

434
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,799
to a hairbreath. It's this sounds like some crap, like

435
00:29:54,839 --> 00:30:00,400
a science fiction, like a some propagandist wrote up or something.

436
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Hair bread. I want to try to find the Fineman quote.

437
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:29,599
All right, Well, does anybody know where this quote comes from?

438
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:31,200
What the what the hell is it supposed to mean?

439
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:58,920
I don't know. I don't see it anywhere. Oh, now

440
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:06,920
here we go. It's going to get interesting. Preconditions for sciencetions.

441
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: Axioms that need to be accepted. I don't want to

442
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,920
put words in your mouth because I want to get

443
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,680
this right before the scientific enterprise can begin. So I've

444
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,440
tried to think those truths. Let me lay out a

445
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,880
couple of them. This is partly what I've done while

446
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,839
trying to make the case, for example, that you're more

447
00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:22,440
of a Christian than you think you are. So, for example,

448
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:28,160
I think that the scientific enterprise is motivated by the

449
00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:32,000
axiomatic presumption that truth tends towards a unity. I think

450
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:35,440
that it's predicated on the notion that there is a

451
00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:40,599
logical order that's intrinsic to the cosmos, that that fundamental

452
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,400
order is good, that it's intelligible to human beings, and

453
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,440
that discovering that order and aligning ourselves with it makes

454
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,599
for life more abundant. I think that the scientific enterprise

455
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,960
is also predicated on the idea that the truth will

456
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,680
set you free. And I think all of those axioms

457
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,039
are religious and derived from the Judeo Christian tradition. And

458
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:03,519
if you don't believe that, you have to account for

459
00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:06,640
why science emerged in Europe and nowhere else. In the

460
00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:11,519
entire history of humanity, for example, and why it's also

461
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:14,720
why it's under assault from like all quarters now as

462
00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:19,119
that underlying metaphysic disappears. Like you haven't had to be

463
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,440
concerned with the mythological substrate in your lifetime in some sense,

464
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:26,880
because it was intact, and so the universities could flourish

465
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,720
and you had your freedom, remarkable freedom to pursue your

466
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:34,799
scientific enterprise wherever you wanted, and people lauded you for it.

467
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,839
Like that. Time is that time is threatened, and seriously so.

468
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:43,119
And I think it's partly because these metaphysical assumptions have

469
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,880
now become questionable, and that's part of the reason that

470
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,640
I'm attending to them. It's not because I don't admire

471
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,279
the accuracy of quantum prediction, for example, or celebrate what

472
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,720
Musk is doing with his capability of sending rockets to

473
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,960
the Mars. It's like, more power to the technological enterprise.

474
00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:03,759
But you know what's happening in the universities, it's awful,

475
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,559
And that's that's not a scientific problem.

476
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,559
Speaker 3: It's underta I agree about that. I think it's an

477
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:11,640
interesting question.

478
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:19,559
Speaker 2: Oh he agrees about that. What with the universities going woke? Uh?

479
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,000
Did you not realize that his basic bitch scientism is

480
00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:27,920
what leads to the absurd cult of the woke? Can

481
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,759
he not put two and two together that the woke

482
00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:34,240
people are in the exact same boat as him, and

483
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,839
they're in the same cult because all of the woke

484
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,920
people have the same scientism cult religion as you, which

485
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,480
you are the high priest of for however many decades.

486
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,839
So how does he not know what his own cult

487
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,200
devotees believe.

488
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:55,039
Speaker 3: By science emerged in Europe? I mean, and I'm not historian, Tom,

489
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,720
it is even possible that Christianity did have something to

490
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,720
do with that. I categoric to deny that, but that

491
00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:08,960
doesn't in any way increase my trust in the validity

492
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,039
of Christian propositions like the Resurrection, the Virgin pers and miracles,

493
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,840
and Jesus is the Son of God. Christianity may have

494
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:23,199
had some kind of historical facilitating effect that led to

495
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,079
the Renaissance, that led to the sun.

496
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: I agree in principle with Jordan Peterson here that obviously

497
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,719
the Christian ethos and the idea of a world governed

498
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:42,239
by regularity, all of life having you know, sanctity meaning

499
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,719
purpose it's itself, you know, as the Manion paper talks

500
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,920
about what gives the possibility of meaningful predication. But I

501
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,480
also think that that doesn't prove anything, because we know

502
00:34:59,639 --> 00:35:03,400
DAWC is just going to say, okay, but maybe myth

503
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,679
gives way to science, right, That's that's their whole narrative

504
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,280
is that mankind is in this sort of Comptian process

505
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,360
whereby he sheds the superstitions of the previous generation. But

506
00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:19,800
the irony of that is that, well, guess what, Richard,

507
00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:25,119
your woke offspring are the ones that are shedding the

508
00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:29,440
pretensions of your generation. So you've created these monsters which

509
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,960
you now disavow. You're the high priest of the gobbling

510
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,199
class gufas.

511
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,199
Speaker 3: Different revolution, and that would be a very interesting historical analysis,

512
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,480
but it doesn't bear upon the truths of the propositions

513
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:48,719
of the Christian religion.

514
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,039
Speaker 1: Okay, let's concentrate on the resurrection for a moment now. Unfortunately,

515
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:55,079
see this is part of the problem. Part of the

516
00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,000
problem with discussions like this is that the mode of

517
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:02,599
approach that's taken by the mythological tends to circle and

518
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:06,480
wander like it doesn't because you have to shine light

519
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:09,599
on the problem from multiple perspectives. That's why it's often

520
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,480
encoded in image, for example, or in drama. It's not

521
00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:17,440
the same tack as a purely propositional in logical argument,

522
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,559
so it's more difficult to make. But let me tell

523
00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:22,760
you a story that I believe bears on the resurrection.

524
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,400
You tell me what you think about it, because I don't.

525
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,360
This is a very difficult story to account for. It's

526
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,039
going to take me about five minutes because it's it's complicated,

527
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:32,159
but there's no way around it, I don't think.

528
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: So before he tells his five minute story paranoid Joe

529
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,920
ten dollars, how can when I try to show the

530
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,360
pope being apostate th Roman Catholics, they try to explain

531
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,960
it away or deny it because the religion is about

532
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,920
the pope ultimately, even if they don't acknowledge it. It's

533
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,400
a worship of authority. All the apologists spend all their

534
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,719
time basically defending the papacy. It's ninety nine percent of

535
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,960
their apologetics. And their apologists are people lawyers, so of

536
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,719
course they're going to explain it away when that's what

537
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,599
the religion is all about. So that's why. Also, I mean,

538
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:12,639
they're so committed to that that they'll deny the trinity

539
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:15,679
of the deedy of Christ, the incarnation, the virgin birth.

540
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,440
They'll deny all that before they deny the papacy. Honeybee

541
00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:21,480
double o honey Bee, two hundred dollars. I hope you

542
00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:23,679
feel better. Wow, thank you you won the super chat

543
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,800
competition today, honey Bee. You always do bringing those fat

544
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,480
superchats a Manuka honey Bee with that two hundred dollars,

545
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,360
Manuka Honey, appreciate it. That's right. I think the Manuka

546
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,880
honey did help with this. You know, whatever kind of

547
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,440
bug I had, it seemed like the only thing that

548
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:50,440
really helped was sleep. Like nothing else worked. I did

549
00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:53,119
take charcoal, so because I didn't know whether At first,

550
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:55,559
I thought maybe I had food poisoning because the first

551
00:37:55,599 --> 00:37:59,000
two days were very different than the rest of the days.

552
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:01,800
So the first two days I thought, oh, I got

553
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,559
food poisoning, and then you know, I'm on a But

554
00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:09,079
then I wasn't. Really I didn't throw up. So, Michael,

555
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:12,760
if I'm not throwing up, what do I have? It's

556
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,559
something else. So I had mega fever for two or

557
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:21,519
three days and then then it was just off to

558
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:26,199
the races, you know what I mean, MKG five dollars.

559
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,159
You got muted right after Jeff Goldblum. Then you unpaused

560
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,440
Alex and he interjected, yeah, sorry about that storm the

561
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,440
cat ten dollars. There's another problem with Carl Popper's falsification

562
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:41,159
epistemology is that he can't know that something is falsified

563
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,960
today won't be false falsified tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. He

564
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,719
has the same issues as David Hume. Yeah. Bonson had

565
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,280
a good critique of falsification in one of his lectures,

566
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,719
and I think he said something like that as well

567
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,119
as you know, just doing a pre subpositional critique the

568
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:05,719
principal falsifiability itself right, that it's unjustified.

569
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,159
Speaker 1: There's a strange scene in the Gospels where Christ tells

570
00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:12,880
his followers that unless he's lifted up like the bronze serpent,

571
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,599
and there can be no hope for the redemption of

572
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:18,239
mankind unless he's lifted up like the bronze serpent in

573
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,360
the desert. Okay, this is a very strange thing for

574
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,800
someone to say, So.

575
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: You need to know what Now. This is interesting because

576
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,280
this also plays into iconography, and if you're going to

577
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,039
be around November eighth, we have our icon Conference coming up,

578
00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:37,519
so I want to remind you that you can still

579
00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,679
get tickets for that. It's going to be a fun,

580
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:51,599
kind of small event. Let's see. Here's the details. November eighth,

581
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:56,000
Palm Coast, Florida, the Ology of the Icon. It's in

582
00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:59,480
eight days. It's going to be an intimate event we have.

583
00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:03,440
We're going to be going pretty deep on icons from

584
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:09,000
different angles. Father Vladimir will be discussing the rubleav Icon,

585
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,760
which is obviously one of the most famous. Father Theodore will

586
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,480
be discussing a mystical practical theology of the icons. Father

587
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:19,719
Deacon's paper, I forget the title of it, but I

588
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,559
think it's just called Theology the Icon. And then I'll

589
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:25,039
be giving a talk on kind of the biblical defense

590
00:40:25,119 --> 00:40:29,760
of iconography in regard to like Protestant apologetics. So if

591
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,880
you go to the link, you can get the tickets.

592
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,199
It's also in the show description for the icon Conference.

593
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,960
It's going to be an intimate, fun affair. If you're

594
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,599
in the Florida area, or even if you're not, if

595
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,880
you want to come for that, let me know there's

596
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:48,719
the link right there.

597
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,639
Speaker 1: The story of the bronze serpent in the desert was

598
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,039
in what it signifies, and I think we can understand

599
00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:00,480
it psychologically. I really do believe this, and so and

600
00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:05,639
the concordance of that story, which was generated millennia before,

601
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,960
with Christ's utterance, is something I just cannot imagine how

602
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,840
anyone put those two things together, especially given the lack

603
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,079
of explicit understanding about the relationship. So let me detail it.

604
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:18,840
So there's a scene in Exodus, in the Exodus story

605
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,280
where the Israelites are doing their usual fractious foolishness and

606
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,800
whining about the fact that they're lost and bemoaning the

607
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,719
loss of their privileges under the Pharaoh, and complaining about

608
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,360
the power dynamics of their leadership, and just generally being

609
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,840
followers of Cain. Let's say, and God, the cruel god

610
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,679
that you refer to, decides to send among his suffering

611
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,719
subjects poisonous snakes to bite them, which seems a little

612
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,599
over the top, you might say. But in response to that,

613
00:41:48,679 --> 00:41:51,559
I would say, there's no situation so terrible that some

614
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,119
damn fool can't make it infinitely worse. And so that's

615
00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:59,000
what happens to the Israelites. So they're being bitten by

616
00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:01,880
these poisonous snakes. And the leaders of the people who've

617
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,119
wandered from God go to Moses and they say, look,

618
00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:06,559
we know you've got a pipeline to God, and you

619
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:08,519
know there's a lot of snakes and they're doing a

620
00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:10,880
lot of biting, and maybe you could just ask him to,

621
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,280
you know, call off the serpents. And so Moses, who's

622
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,039
not very happy with the Israelites, either decides that he'll

623
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:22,000
go talk to God. And God says something very strange.

624
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:25,280
He doesn't say, to hell with the Israelites. More snakes

625
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,199
is what they need. And he doesn't say, well, I

626
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,119
produce the snake, so I'll get rid of them. He

627
00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:34,519
says something very very peculiar. He says, have the Israelites

628
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:37,559
gathered together all their bronze and make a giant steak

629
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,159
and put a serpent on it, a bronze serpent, which

630
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:42,320
is the symbol of healing. By the way that even

631
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,519
the Greeks use that symbol of Asclepius. It's a very

632
00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:49,840
old symbol, very widespread, still used by physicians today. And

633
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,239
then he says, put it up where the Israelites can

634
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,280
see it, and if they go look at it, then

635
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,719
the serpent's poison won't harm them. And I read that

636
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:04,719
thought that's exactly what psychotherapists discovered as they all converged

637
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,159
in the twentieth century on the utility of exposure therapy

638
00:43:08,159 --> 00:43:11,800
as curative and that's the pharmicon. A little of the

639
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,039
poison that hurts you cures you. It's the same principle

640
00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:18,519
that's used for vaccines, by the way, So what we

641
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:21,199
saw in psychotherapy is that if you get people to

642
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,119
voluntarily confront the things that are poisoning them, so to speak,

643
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:28,800
that hurt their life, that frighten them, and discuss them,

644
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,840
they become braver and more well adapted. It is.

645
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying there might be there might not

646
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,679
be some application of this principle from the biblical symbology

647
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:50,039
going on here, but what the psychotherapists discovered is not

648
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:55,000
what these texts are conveying. Again, there might be some

649
00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:01,440
loose connection or analogy, but what is being displayed here

650
00:44:01,679 --> 00:44:05,280
is the defeating of death by death. The thing that

651
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,599
brought death, the serpent, right becomes the instrument of healing,

652
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:14,960
the cross, which is a image a horrible Roman image

653
00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:20,280
of death becomes a healing instrument of life, trampling down

654
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,960
death by death. Hello, Christ has risen from the dead,

655
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:28,360
trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs,

656
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,960
bestowing life right. Everybody's sung this million times. How is

657
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,440
that because death becomes the instrument through which death is defeated.

658
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,599
It's the trick God's trick of the devil to defeat

659
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:45,719
the devil by his own instrument. That's the meaning of it.

660
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:47,039
Speaker 1: Uh.

661
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:49,639
Speaker 2: And so I guess you could loosely say that it's

662
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,599
exposing the subject to the thing, because I guess in

663
00:44:53,599 --> 00:44:58,199
a sense, Christ willingly took on and underwent death in

664
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:00,559
his human nature, meaning let the divine person of the

665
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:05,599
word willingly and actually experienced the severing of his human

666
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:07,800
soul from his human body. In that sense, I guess

667
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,239
you could say maybe that's what he.

668
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: Means, that they become less afraid, because that's been very

669
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:13,960
carefully tested. It's that.

670
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,079
Speaker 2: Oh, and I forgot to mention there is this.

671
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:17,559
Speaker 1: Uh.

672
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,639
Speaker 2: There's a good article actually by Pagot speaking of this

673
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,960
topic from about ten years ago on the Serpents of Orthodoxy.

674
00:45:26,159 --> 00:45:28,639
This is a really good article to give to like Protestants,

675
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,920
because I don't know how many times I've heard Protestants.

676
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,559
Speaker 6: So why is the Orthodox bishop got a thing with

677
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:43,599
snakes on it? Do you worship the lucifer serpent? Serpents

678
00:45:43,639 --> 00:45:49,320
don't just mean bad things like the bronze serpent. Duh, Right,

679
00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:52,280
So every.

680
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,599
Speaker 2: Low tier Protestant needs to read this article from Pagot.

681
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:56,320
It's a good article.

682
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: They learn by watching themselves expose themselves to the things

683
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,440
that they once flee from, that there's more to them

684
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,440
than they think, and that that generalizes across situations. And

685
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,639
it's the same mechanism that underlies learning as such, because children,

686
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:17,480
when they learn, put themselves on the edge of ragged

687
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,800
disaster and that's where they advance. And so what God

688
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,519
tells the Israelites essentially in this dramatic endeavor is that

689
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,880
it's better for them to face the terrors that confront

690
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,159
them than to have than to be shielded from the

691
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,719
terrors or for them to hide from them. That they'll

692
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,239
be better people if they face what's right in front

693
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,679
of them, even if it's poisonous. And so it's like, Okay,

694
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,599
that's pretty damn interesting and quite remarkable. And then that

695
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,679
symbol is used, for example, by the Greeks to symbolize

696
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,199
medicine as such. But then there's this additional weird twist

697
00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:55,119
which is Christ identifies with that bronze serpent. You think, okay,

698
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:57,360
that's a very peculiar thing for anyone to do. What

699
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,400
is exactly? What is exactly? Does that mean? Well, so

700
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,320
then you might say, well, what's the most poisonous thing

701
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,920
that you could possibly face? You if you dramatized the

702
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,800
idea of poison itself, if you wanted people to face

703
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,760
what was worse so that they could become strongest. And

704
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,880
the answer to that is the most unjust, possible, painful

705
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,199
death and the ultimate confrontation with malevolence. And that's what's

706
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:32,199
dramatized in the Passion story. Now does that redeem everyone? Maybe? Maybe? Maybe?

707
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,239
The idea is that if we were courageous enough to

708
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,960
look death in the face unflinchingly, and if we spent

709
00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:42,559
our time putting our finger on the source of evil itself,

710
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,440
it would revital us, revitalize ourselves to a degree that

711
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,599
would be unimaginable. Now, as a biologist, you know you

712
00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:52,440
could think about this too, because I don't remember the

713
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,639
philosopher said it. I think it was Whitehead, but that

714
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,400
might be wrong. We let our ideas die instead of us, right,

715
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,000
So human beings have evolved so that we can undergo

716
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:04,679
these deaths of our own ideas and the rejuvenation that

717
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,639
emerges in consequence of that. That seems to be something

718
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:16,199
like evolution towards what towards the process of sacrificial logos

719
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,639
as the thing that redeems human beings, and that makes

720
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,320
us biologically unique too, because we can die in ideation

721
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:28,280
and imagination instead of dying in actuality. Does that fundamentally

722
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,519
redeem us? Does that deliver us from death and evil?

723
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:32,519
Speaker 4: Maybe?

724
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: Like the job isn't done obviously.

725
00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: I mean, that was a good exposition of kind of

726
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,400
what's going on with the symbolism and the meaning of

727
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,119
this stuff at certain levels. But he's just so close

728
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:55,800
to pointing out that, Yeah, but it needs to be

729
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,599
the divine person of the word healing our names. That's

730
00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:02,840
the that's the point. So it's like he's like all

731
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,320
the way up to everything, but the ultimate point of

732
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,239
doing of why Christ did it right? Yeah, you can

733
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,199
say it's an example for personal courage and facing evil

734
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:21,639
and battling malevolence and all that. But that's ultimately still

735
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:25,119
the Aryan Jesus, right. Remember, Arian Jesus is the great

736
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:31,559
moral example. It's actually it's actually called in theological verbiage,

737
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:35,400
the moral example theory of the atonement. What's the purpose

738
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,400
of Christ's death and atonement? The Aryan idea is that, well, obviously,

739
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,239
if Jesus is just a man, it doesn't do anything

740
00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:46,159
metaphysically or miraculously to anybody, because it's just a man dying.

741
00:49:46,639 --> 00:49:49,239
How can that? That can't save you, but he can

742
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,480
set an example for you, you see. So the Aryan

743
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,679
view of Christ's death was always this sort of de mythologized,

744
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,519
non marae aculus type of an event in the sense

745
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:05,719
of salvation, because it's just just an example. So Jesus

746
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,679
is no more than any other prophet setting an example

747
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,400
of how you should live. But the difference, of course,

748
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:15,639
is that the whole message of Christianity Orthodox Christianity is

749
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:19,840
that it's a miraculous event where the divine person of

750
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,760
the Word is deifying and healing our actual human nature

751
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,639
and resurrecting it and by extension, the entire cosmos. That's

752
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:33,800
the real message of Christianity, so he's always just right

753
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:39,000
at the edge of what Christianity is really about.

754
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 5: Ory that we've just heard the Old Testament bronze serpent.

755
00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:49,239
It's rhyming with the New Testament Christ depicting himself as

756
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,159
that bron serpent. I think from Jordan, if I may,

757
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:56,079
as Richard suggest from what I've heard you say before

758
00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:01,280
on the same story, there's something about that, that harmony

759
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,599
between that New Testament Jesus and that Old Testament story,

760
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,880
which is so profound and so impressive that it's difficult

761
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,199
to imagine it having sort of naive human authorship.

762
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 4: What do you make of that story and of that assertion, Well.

763
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,079
Speaker 3: It doesn't impress me. I mean, I don't understand why

764
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:21,920
you would say that Has. I don't think us Has

765
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,360
said it had a divine inspiration. Maybe he did.

766
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 5: I'm not divine inspiration necessarily, but more than just as

767
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,199
I say, naive human authorship, not like someone just sat

768
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:32,039
down and wrote.

769
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: It's a minimum. It's a staggeringly brilliant literary move, especially

770
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,320
given the fact that that relationship hasn't been explicated before.

771
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 5: Do you think, for example, if you were looking in

772
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,079
scripture for something which would identify this as a as

773
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:50,880
a God given text. Maybe you, as a scientist, would

774
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,199
look for some scientific information. It might have told you

775
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:55,559
the shape of DNA or something like that. But do

776
00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:58,679
you think think, yeah, we can perhaps get onto that.

777
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,079
But do you think that a little terrary brilliance of

778
00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:05,199
a similar kind or a similar intensity that if the

779
00:52:05,199 --> 00:52:07,159
Bible is not a scientific text, you might be looking

780
00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:09,719
for something which some scientific fact which you couldn't have

781
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,840
otherwise known. Is it possible that some kind of genius

782
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,239
moral move or literary move could also indicate that this

783
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,119
is something more impressive.

784
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,199
Speaker 3: And more or less Ask me whether what would impress me?

785
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,280
And I'm a naive literalist, and so I would say

786
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,960
if if any prophet had said something like the world

787
00:52:31,079 --> 00:52:36,280
is just one object in rotating around the sun, something

788
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,679
like that, They never do, I mean, it's always some

789
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,920
kind of moral lesson which leaves me cold.

790
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,159
Speaker 5: Well, why is it that there is no They say

791
00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:46,920
that God meets you where you're at, right? And there

792
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:52,039
are some people who just care about.

793
00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:56,639
Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't Isaiah talk about the luminaries and a

794
00:52:56,679 --> 00:53:01,360
pretty fascinating way. What's he talking about? Their moral lessons

795
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:02,159
leave me cold?

796
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,119
Speaker 5: What does that mean scientific truth? That's that's what they know,

797
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,119
that's the pithecial. Why is that anything in the Bible

798
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:08,559
for them?

799
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: Well, I think the idea that sacrifices the basis of

800
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:16,679
the community is a remarkable, h and scientifically valid hypothesis.

801
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,719
I think that it's precisely akin to the what would

802
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,599
you say to the process of cortical maturation. I think

803
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:28,159
they're the same thing, because as we mature, we move

804
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,880
farther away from the immediate gratification of our of our

805
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:39,000
self centered emotional and motivational needs to a ethos of

806
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,960
care that brings our future self into the picture and

807
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,159
a wider and wider array of other people. And I

808
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:50,719
think that's associated with cortical maturation. In fact, I think

809
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,920
the purpose of the cortex, the purpose a purpose of

810
00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:01,079
the cortex is to bring the dynamics of the shortsighted

811
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,480
underlying motivational and emotional systems into the kind of harmony

812
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:09,800
that allows for communal existence and the protection of the

813
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,199
future at the same time that the present is what

814
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,760
would you say, cared for and attended to. Now, there's

815
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,880
a kind of harmony there. There's also a pattern there.

816
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,920
It's not arbitrary at all, And I think we know

817
00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:24,800
this biologically. Is that the number of ways, and I

818
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,679
think we already alluded to this, the number of ways

819
00:54:27,679 --> 00:54:31,679
that a society can organize itself so that each individual

820
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,079
can harmonize their own future with the present and do

821
00:54:35,199 --> 00:54:38,880
that simultaneously with many other people. That there's a very

822
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,639
limited universe of possibilities. There rich very limited universe, which.

823
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,679
Speaker 5: As Austry before about the difference between a story or

824
00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:50,599
an idea naturally evolving over the course of numerous manuscripts

825
00:54:50,639 --> 00:54:52,760
and throughout human history, and the idea of it being

826
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,440
divinely inspired, and you were seeming to imply that these

827
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,159
are almost interchangeable concepts. Now, if that's the case, when

828
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:05,800
you say that this divine spirit behind the Bible is

829
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,079
actually just the way that it has evolved throughout the

830
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:12,239
human history, throughout the different manuscripts that we've had, then

831
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,800
saying that that is what divinity is, I think for

832
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,079
you may drag the mundane up into the realm of divinity.

833
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,119
But I think for people like Richard and for many

834
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:23,639
people listening, what it doesn't said is drags the divine

835
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:25,519
down to the realm of the mundane.

836
00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 3: Very well put, yes, when we think about.

837
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: Then there's a shopify after that. I don't understand this

838
00:55:40,519 --> 00:55:45,880
objection that Dawkin says is really well put, that it

839
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:51,039
drags the divine into the realm of the mundane. I mean,

840
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,719
what kind of bizarre metaphysical gibber jabber does the atheist

841
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,199
base this on, Like, because the divine is in any

842
00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:03,000
way involved in the here and the now, in the madane,

843
00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:06,880
that's somehow below the divine, Like, how do you know that?

844
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:09,239
On what basis? Is that what the divine does and

845
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,960
doesn't do according to you know, your standards. It's just

846
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,840
really they're so arbitrary. It's so weird to hear these

847
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,880
people be this way and they're never they're never called

848
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,079
out on their standards, I think, which is what's so annoying.

849
00:56:21,079 --> 00:56:23,679
And that's what that's the power of tag is tag

850
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,360
just immediately goes to on what basis are you making

851
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,719
these you know, grandiose critiques and claims here? How do

852
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,760
you know what is too mundane for the divine today?

853
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,639
Speaker 5: To upgrade your selling that shopified.

854
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: Multiple modes of being. I don't think it doesn't make

855
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,199
any difference to me whether it's the material reaching upward

856
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,559
or the divine descending downward. I don't think there's any.

857
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: Difference, but multiple modes of being. I mean, now we're

858
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,679
in straight up metaphysics territory, which I don't mind. But

859
00:56:56,199 --> 00:56:59,719
I remember watching all those the Peterson lectures. Maybe he's

860
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,360
changed positions since the personality lectures from I don't know,

861
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,760
ten years ago, but in those he's all about I

862
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,119
don't do metaphysics. I don't do metaphysics. I mean modes

863
00:57:12,159 --> 00:57:15,360
of being is like, that's like straight up one percent

864
00:57:15,519 --> 00:57:18,400
pure metaphysics. You're talking about modality between those two.

865
00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:20,679
Speaker 3: You don't that's exactly right, that's the problem.

866
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:21,599
Speaker 1: Well I don't.

867
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 3: You don't see the difference.

868
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,239
Speaker 1: Well look look look at it this way. So for example,

869
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:28,440
in this conversation, you know this to be the case. Like,

870
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,760
there's various ways that this conversation could go sideways, right, seriously,

871
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,199
like we can Either of us could.

872
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: Try to I mean, I could be just sick, but

873
00:57:38,039 --> 00:57:42,400
I generally have no idea what O'Connor and Dawkins are

874
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:43,199
trying to argue here.

875
00:57:44,639 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: Either of us could try to demonstrate our intellectual superiority, right,

876
00:57:48,599 --> 00:57:53,280
each of us could misrepresent the other or we could

877
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,159
both try, and I do think we are in fact

878
00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:57,760
trying that, and I think Alex is helping along with that.

879
00:57:58,039 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: Just now, I'm gonna be honest here between these two.

880
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:05,519
I mean, Jordan Peterson is legit like a ten ex genius.

881
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:09,599
I mean, I mean, I think Jordan Peterson is generally

882
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,159
really really intelligent, but I mean he's talking about comparing

883
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:17,719
it like he's talking to a damn midwet dude. Like

884
00:58:18,199 --> 00:58:23,719
I'm not kidding, like both O'Connor and this goofas here

885
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:29,400
pseudo intellectual Dawkins. I mean, like it's like they're not

886
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,559
even on the same plane. Honest, I'm just being honest

887
00:58:33,599 --> 00:58:36,280
between these two, these three. So it's weird to me

888
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,960
too that like I really don't understand why how Alex

889
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,880
O'Connor has this audience And well, you're just jealous. I'm

890
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:46,840
not jealous of that dude at all. That it was

891
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:48,960
a vegan like a year ago. What are you talking about,

892
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,559
I'm jealous of him. No, I don't understand how these

893
00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:58,719
people get these Maybe they're propped up like, but I mean,

894
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,239
Jordan Peterson genuinely is. I have my criticism of Jordan Peters,

895
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,159
but he's like way smarter than these either of these goofballs,

896
00:59:05,239 --> 00:59:10,440
especially cosmic skeptic. I don't, but like, what is it

897
00:59:10,559 --> 00:59:17,239
that I mean he really is like like remember when

898
00:59:17,239 --> 00:59:21,800
he debated Trent. I mean, Trent just made Alex O'Connor

899
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:27,079
look like a complete slow boy. I mean, like what

900
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,719
And now he's sitting here with Peterson and Dawkins like

901
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,679
he's like this, like they're all like comrades, like or

902
00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:40,320
they're all like, uh, you know, peers, like this guy's

903
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,119
a goofball. But I mean Dawkins is kind of a

904
00:59:44,079 --> 00:59:44,599
fraud too.

905
00:59:44,639 --> 00:59:49,239
Speaker 1: I think, fine, we could try to follow the thread

906
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,760
of the exploratory truth and see if we could get somewhere. Now,

907
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,000
I don't think there is any difference between that, by

908
00:59:55,039 --> 00:59:58,000
the way, and what's expressed in the Biblical texts as

909
00:59:58,039 --> 01:00:00,880
the spirit of the logos. That's why we of dialogue.

910
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:06,679
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in the possibility that truths emerge through

911
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,400
evolving manuscripts. Now, that's a very interesting idea, and it's

912
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,519
totally different from divine inspiration, and I want to pursue

913
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:18,199
it because I don't believe in divine inspiration, but I

914
01:00:18,239 --> 01:00:21,320
would be prepared to believe in evolving manuscripts.

915
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: Well, I would say, well, I would say, this is

916
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:29,480
why I had set forward the possibility of taking a look,

917
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:32,679
particularly at mature Aliata, because that's where you'd find the

918
01:00:32,679 --> 01:00:36,679
best work. He's a he's brilliant the history of I

919
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,480
believe that if you studied the history of religious ideas,

920
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,159
it's a three volume manuscript. Or The Sacred in the Profane,

921
01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:46,159
which is probably his single best work that you'd see.

922
01:00:48,719 --> 01:00:49,559
Speaker 6: Well see.

923
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 2: Now, a lot of people get Peterson flack because they

924
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,480
think he's like a sued or No, he's not. He's

925
01:00:55,480 --> 01:01:01,159
not a suit He's actually how can I put this?

926
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:08,000
I think the big problem here is that he won't

927
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,760
fully commit to what I think he does know is true.

928
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,960
That's what I'm trying to say. Like you don't get

929
01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:20,280
tag and then almost do tag and then back off,

930
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:28,519
you know what I mean. It's like he's he's not

931
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,000
living up to what he could be. That's what I'm

932
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:37,800
trying to say. And I mean Sacred and Profane is

933
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:48,360
really good. I'm trying to think of the right word

934
01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:53,920
for what I want to say. I don't think, I

935
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,679
genuinely do not think Peterson is a sued or a

936
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,679
like a fake intellectual or or. But I think that

937
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:10,440
he's he chooses this broad appeal normy approach to reach

938
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:18,039
a lot of people, and it undercuts the effectiveness that

939
01:02:18,119 --> 01:02:28,800
he could have, isn't you know what I mean? Yeah,

940
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:30,639
I'm gonna take the call ins with This just ended

941
01:02:30,679 --> 01:02:32,760
up being a lot longer than I thought because we're

942
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,840
having so much fun joking with proj pat cutting in

943
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,239
and being silly that this is going on for forever.

944
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,360
But anyway, let's get back to it.

945
01:02:44,039 --> 01:02:47,719
Speaker 1: Profound analogies between the manner in which you've been construing

946
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:52,360
the world biologically, including the trains of thought that led

947
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,280
you to the development of the idea of the meme.

948
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:57,719
Speaker 3: I really believe that analogies is one thing. But is

949
01:02:57,719 --> 01:02:58,519
it the same thing?

950
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:00,719
Speaker 1: I think it's the same I do, I think. Look,

951
01:03:01,039 --> 01:03:03,639
I don't know. That's why I like your opinion on it,

952
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,719
you know, well, seriously, like it's a complicated question. I've

953
01:03:07,719 --> 01:03:12,159
talked to It's a complicated question. Most people don't know

954
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,960
both literatures. There's not a lot of people to discuss

955
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,840
this sort of thing with Camille Pelly. I talked to

956
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,960
Kamil Pelly about this, she studied the work of a

957
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,280
man named Eric Neuman. Neuman wrote a book called The History,

958
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,119
Origins and History of Consciousness, which is a work of genius,

959
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,400
and also another book called The Great Mother, which is

960
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,559
a study of the symbolism of the feminine. It's a

961
01:03:30,599 --> 01:03:34,119
great book. Pellia told me that she believed that if

962
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,199
the academy would have turned to Eric Neuman, who's a

963
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,400
student of you, although the greatest student of you, and

964
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:45,199
maybe one who surpassed him, that the entire culture war

965
01:03:45,239 --> 01:03:48,760
that's torn the universities apart wouldn't have happened. People don't

966
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:53,119
know this literature, and it's let me give you an

967
01:03:53,119 --> 01:03:55,400
example this. You tell me what you think about this. Okay,

968
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,360
So I spent a fair bit of time studying the

969
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,719
psychophysiasology the hypothalamus case.

970
01:04:03,119 --> 01:04:06,119
Speaker 2: By the way, this is another criticism I would have

971
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:08,199
at this point, which is that I don't doubt that

972
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,599
Jordan Peterson is correct about people are not aware of

973
01:04:12,639 --> 01:04:17,400
this important literature. But this is the whole misunderstanding about

974
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:24,840
academia and Man's problem in general. Like accurately diagnosing man's problem,

975
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,159
Man's problem isn't academic. Man's problem isn't ultimately a lack

976
01:04:30,199 --> 01:04:34,719
of knowledge, a lack of facts. Man's problem is his ethics,

977
01:04:35,599 --> 01:04:42,079
and that determines his lack of knowledge and lack of facts.

978
01:04:43,679 --> 01:04:47,840
So it's almost always reversed. People think that all these

979
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,880
domains are separated. They don't really relate. No. No, you can't

980
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:57,840
have ultimately the right worldview, the right knowledge without the

981
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,239
right heart. And nobody thinks this way because that's unique

982
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:07,320
to orthodoxy. In Roman Catholicism, it's all intellect and scholasticism

983
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:09,920
or whatever I mean it used to be. That's discarded.

984
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,000
They don't care about that anymore. That's just online. Larper's

985
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:15,280
the only people that care about Thomism. But they lost

986
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,480
the notion of you have to get your heart right

987
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:21,119
before you can interpret the world right right, And that's

988
01:05:21,239 --> 01:05:26,639
not what is going on with Academia or Dawkins or

989
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,480
these people. So while it may be true that there

990
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,199
are good pieces of literature out there that could have

991
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:40,079
helped academia once academia was severed from the transcendent of

992
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:42,800
the divine and all that, which was a long time ago,

993
01:05:44,039 --> 01:05:47,679
there's no manner of academic texts that will fix this

994
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,840
problem because it's not an intellectual problem.

995
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: Hypothemis is set up. It's got two halves. Basically, one

996
01:05:56,519 --> 01:06:01,880
half deals with fundamental motivated states hunger, thirst, defensive aggression, sexuality,

997
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:07,400
and so forth. And when those areas are dominated, the

998
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:11,400
biologically relevant goal is activated and perceptions are oriented towards

999
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,360
that goal. Okay, so now then you might ask yourself, well,

1000
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,840
what happens if all those biologically motivated states are satiated,

1001
01:06:20,199 --> 01:06:22,719
And the answer seems to me is that the other

1002
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:27,159
half of the hypothelamist kicks in and it mediates exploratory behavior.

1003
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:33,519
And so the default structure of the mammalian nervous system is,

1004
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:38,760
if satiated or in doubt, explore and gather new information.

1005
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,199
There's no difference between that and hero mythology. They are

1006
01:06:42,239 --> 01:06:45,960
the same thing. They're the same thing. The dragon fight,

1007
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:49,480
for example, So the oldest story we have, it's's coded

1008
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,960
in the Mesopotamian mythology. The dragon fight story is explore

1009
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:58,320
the dangerous unknown, discover the treasure that revitalizes the community.

1010
01:06:58,519 --> 01:07:01,960
There's no difference between that and the science that you practice.

1011
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,760
They're the same thing, the same story.

1012
01:07:05,639 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 3: I didn't want to make for that. I mean, you

1013
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:12,440
say that they're the same story. You've analogized that the

1014
01:07:12,519 --> 01:07:13,760
dragon fight too.

1015
01:07:15,679 --> 01:07:16,719
Speaker 1: Overcoming your life.

1016
01:07:17,519 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 3: I'm not interested in dragons, I'm interested in reality.

1017
01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 2: Is this dude so uh like numb and dumb to

1018
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:33,239
not understand what he's referring to? Like he's not literally

1019
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:37,320
talking about a dragon. He's talking about adversities in your

1020
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:40,960
life that you have overcome. Now, even if you disagree

1021
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,079
with Jordan Peterson, like that's obviously what he's talking about.

1022
01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:48,000
And Richard Talkins is like that, I don't believe in dragons.

1023
01:07:48,159 --> 01:07:50,280
I mean, does this dont even know how to what

1024
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,800
a metaphor is? I mean he sounds like a like

1025
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:54,360
a Baptist fundamentalist.

1026
01:07:54,719 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 6: What you mean by your dragon? I don't believe.

1027
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 2: Dragon, right, I mean, like what is everything literal? By

1028
01:08:02,519 --> 01:08:05,840
the way, the Dragon Fight? Is Jordan Peterson talking about

1029
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,760
the Kuma te Stop asking? I think he's talking about

1030
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:14,880
the Kuma te Bro. Jordan Peters has been watching blood Sport, Bro,

1031
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:25,760
you know about the dem mock. Do you fight to survive? Listen,

1032
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,039
if you're gonna be going up against dragons, you better

1033
01:08:29,079 --> 01:08:31,720
fight to survive. And if you're gonna if you're gonna

1034
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,600
fight to survive like the fraudster Frank Dukes. Did you

1035
01:08:36,199 --> 01:08:43,600
want to play this song? I can't play too much

1036
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,119
of it, but you know what I'm saying.

1037
01:08:49,159 --> 01:08:50,319
Speaker 1: Fight to survive.

1038
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,279
Speaker 6: Ka te te te.

1039
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna leave that little jim in the chat for

1040
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,359
you boys and girls right there. Now, that's how you

1041
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:05,520
beat a dragon. First of all, how number one become

1042
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,920
van dam. That's step number one to defeating dragons. Step

1043
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,520
number two, read the collected works of Carl Jung and

1044
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:20,319
Jordan Peterson. Step number three, enter the kumite. Step number four,

1045
01:09:21,199 --> 01:09:28,319
do five roundhouses against a giant chong Lee dragon defeated?

1046
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's okay. So I read a book a

1047
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:39,800
while back that described the describe the uh, the biological

1048
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,359
reality of the dragon. Say, well, there's no such thing

1049
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:44,199
as a dragon. It's like, okay, is there such a

1050
01:09:44,239 --> 01:09:45,159
thing as a predator?

1051
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:46,279
Speaker 3: Of course?

1052
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:51,399
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's a meta category. What's the category of predator?

1053
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:56,960
Bear eagle? If you're a primate? Fire? Is fire a predator?

1054
01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:01,680
Well it's complicated, because a fire kills you. Okay, So

1055
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:08,159
is there a worse predator than serpentine? Flying, fire breathing reptile?

1056
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,640
Is that not the imagistic equivalent of predator. So is

1057
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:15,560
one way if predator is real, in what ways?

1058
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:21,119
Speaker 2: Chong Lee Bolo Young predators Predator from the movie Predator?

1059
01:10:21,159 --> 01:10:26,159
Is he a predator? Richard Dawkins? Can you answer yes

1060
01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:29,600
or no to any of these obvious predatory individuals?

1061
01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: Dragon reel doesn't take that much imagination to see the I.

1062
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 2: Just enter the dragon Reel entity.

1063
01:10:37,359 --> 01:10:41,399
Speaker 1: And then wouldn't the fundamental task of edible primates be

1064
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,399
to figure out how to overcome the dragon forever?

1065
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 3: And why rather? I mean, we have lungs, we have tigers,

1066
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,079
we have saber tooths, we have.

1067
01:10:49,279 --> 01:10:53,399
Speaker 1: Why not right? But why not abstract? Because it's for

1068
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,199
the same reason that we have the term predator, we

1069
01:10:56,279 --> 01:11:00,760
have the term bear, lion, komodo dragon. Well you make

1070
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:04,239
an amalgamation, you say, well, the relevant set of features

1071
01:11:04,399 --> 01:11:08,680
is an image. Well, what's the image predator as such?

1072
01:11:09,239 --> 01:11:12,560
What's the image of that? The dragon that never disappears?

1073
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,840
And then there's a twist on that which is so cool.

1074
01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:18,760
It's so interesting because you can imagine rabbit mythology, which

1075
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:23,399
would be something like predator appears freeze. But that's not

1076
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:27,159
the human story. The human story is predator appears, there's

1077
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:28,439
a treasure somewhere.

1078
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 2: Is this a different Jordan Peterson? Like this is like

1079
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:37,079
some sort of like this seems like a Jordan Peterson

1080
01:11:37,159 --> 01:11:41,119
that teaches PUA classes and has been lifting weights and

1081
01:11:41,239 --> 01:11:43,640
is he taking Chad mode? Like this is a different

1082
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:48,079
This is like some kind of this is like, who's

1083
01:11:48,119 --> 01:11:51,680
a dude that ran the WWE or whatever? Remember that

1084
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:56,000
guy all y'all wrestling fans out there. This is some

1085
01:11:56,039 --> 01:12:00,680
other Jordan They clone that Almanata had done. Cloneordan Peterson. Bro,

1086
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:07,640
who's that guy that ran the wwd Uh? Is he

1087
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:11,760
the CEO or the leader? Or is he do Jordan

1088
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,159
Peterson is Vince McMahon. That's what I'm trying to think of.

1089
01:12:15,319 --> 01:12:22,880
Vince Mcpeterson, dude, what's going on? Do Jordan Peterson has

1090
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,880
done turned into Vince McMahon.

1091
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:28,079
Speaker 6: Bro?

1092
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:38,399
Speaker 2: Well, maybe not the present day of Vince McMahon because

1093
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:42,760
he looks looks kind of weird, but like this era

1094
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:47,479
of Vince McMahon, dude, that's what we gotta We got

1095
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:52,239
a new and improved We gotta chalk heavy Jordan Peterson.

1096
01:12:52,279 --> 01:12:55,279
If you want to also be chalk heavy, head on

1097
01:12:55,279 --> 01:12:57,760
over to chalk Dot com c h o q dot com.

1098
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:01,880
Use the promo code jay f J forty. Excuse me,

1099
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:08,359
choq dot com. Get a hold of that performance stack.

1100
01:13:09,239 --> 01:13:11,840
Get a hold of that wrong stuff right there, the

1101
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,880
performance stack JAY forty to get forty percent off of

1102
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,640
that right there, get that Chad Mo, get that tonk

1103
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,920
out of league at that action two point oh, so

1104
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,640
that you can become Vince mcpeterson.

1105
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: Right. That's completely that's a completely different pathway of evolutionary significance.

1106
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,199
Like the way that we construe the world isn't freeze

1107
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:35,399
like predator. It's like, oh, there's a predator. Maybe there's

1108
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:39,600
something valuable lurking in our conflict with it. You know,

1109
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,600
our sticks in our spears that enable our fragile bodies

1110
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:45,880
to stand up against the dragons of the world.

1111
01:13:46,039 --> 01:13:49,199
Speaker 5: So a dragon is a pictorial representation of the abstracted

1112
01:13:49,239 --> 01:13:50,439
concept of a predator.

1113
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 4: Yes, as you.

1114
01:13:51,720 --> 01:14:00,399
Speaker 2: Say, oh, way way to good job there sherlock. Wow.

1115
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:05,560
So Jordan Peterson spends ten minutes explaining the symbolism of

1116
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:11,079
a dragon, and genius O'Connor chimes in with a sentence

1117
01:14:11,159 --> 01:14:17,319
basically saying, so it's a symbol of a predator. Thank

1118
01:14:17,359 --> 01:14:19,840
you debate, Coop, go back to the village people, please.

1119
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,520
Speaker 5: We already have the term predator, and so it might

1120
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,720
be useful in art and narrative to I mean, you

1121
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:26,840
can't paint an abstraction.

1122
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 1: We had the image way before we had the word.

1123
01:14:29,159 --> 01:14:31,079
Speaker 4: Sure, okay, but that's.

1124
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,079
Speaker 1: A seriously important thing to understand.

1125
01:14:37,279 --> 01:14:41,119
Speaker 2: You can't paint an abstraction. I mean this Dufus just

1126
01:14:41,199 --> 01:14:44,079
called a dragon an abstraction. So if I painted a

1127
01:14:44,159 --> 01:14:46,720
dragon by his own definition, I could paint an abstraction.

1128
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:48,319
What this guy is like an idiot man.

1129
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 5: But now we have the word, We have the word predator,

1130
01:14:51,159 --> 01:14:52,840
and maybe if we were doing art, maybe if we're

1131
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:54,560
going to sort of draw a picture of tell a story.

1132
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:56,920
We wanted to invent a story to give our children

1133
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:59,720
a good moral message, we might invent this dragon.

1134
01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 4: Use this dragon as well.

1135
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,159
Speaker 1: We do all We do it with Harry Potter, but

1136
01:15:05,199 --> 01:15:06,680
we do it with the Lord of the Rings, we

1137
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:07,800
do it with the Avengers.

1138
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:14,399
Speaker 5: When you say the biology of the dragon, you must

1139
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:16,000
understand how that can be misleading.

1140
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 2: Uh, there's one easy term that if these I don't

1141
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,560
know if any of them are maybe Peterson may Peerson

1142
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,640
probably knows this I think he's even used this term before.

1143
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,279
But what these other two goofballs don't even know. The

1144
01:15:34,359 --> 01:15:38,279
term they're looking for is the ontological status. So what

1145
01:15:38,319 --> 01:15:41,359
they want to know is what is the ontological status

1146
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:46,239
of a dragon, of a predator, of divine authorship of

1147
01:15:46,279 --> 01:15:50,560
the Bible of God. Right, that's the thing that these

1148
01:15:51,319 --> 01:15:54,920
like midweights, who have such a limited vocabulary, don't even

1149
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,359
know where to go, what term to use. They're seeking

1150
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:00,920
for that term this whole.

1151
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 5: Time as to the enterprise that you're engaging in, because

1152
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,520
we're talking here about narrative, we're talking here about art,

1153
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,560
we're talking here about representations in Literally, I.

1154
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,039
Speaker 7: Just think Alex O'Connor is a fabulous isn't he just

1155
01:16:13,079 --> 01:16:16,840
a fabulous midwith. He's just the most fabulous midwith village

1156
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:20,079
person cop of all time because he's got such a

1157
01:16:20,159 --> 01:16:24,039
cop mustache from the nineteen eighties. He looks like he'd

1158
01:16:24,079 --> 01:16:25,119
be on chips or something.

1159
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,680
Speaker 1: I don't think the category of dragon is any less

1160
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:31,600
valid than the category.

1161
01:16:31,079 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 4: Of lion, any less biological.

1162
01:16:33,319 --> 01:16:36,199
Speaker 1: Well, it depends on your level of analysis. We have

1163
01:16:36,279 --> 01:16:39,159
the term predator, which implies that all predators have something

1164
01:16:39,159 --> 01:16:41,800
in common, because otherwise we wouldn't have the term. It's like,

1165
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:45,640
there's no reason to assume ontological priority for the category

1166
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,720
of lion or for the category of predator, Like I

1167
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:50,479
think it depends on all.

1168
01:16:50,319 --> 01:16:53,039
Speaker 2: That would that's actually a really good argument. I wish

1169
01:16:53,039 --> 01:16:58,199
he would like push that at.

1170
01:16:58,039 --> 01:17:02,399
Speaker 1: These goofballs determine which of those terms should be used.

1171
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,960
Is the purpose towards which the conceptualization is being directed,

1172
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:07,520
if you want to identify it.

1173
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:12,319
Speaker 2: Dude, is Jordan Peterson like taking he must be just

1174
01:17:12,359 --> 01:17:16,079
like sniffing straight chalk. Dude, he looks like he's about

1175
01:17:16,079 --> 01:17:19,039
to jump over this table and strangle these soy men.

1176
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,560
We got a new Peterson on our hands. Bro, new

1177
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:30,960
Peterson just dropped and it's Vince mcpeterson. We're talking Army

1178
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:40,560
level special ops, Navy seal Peterson. He's about the he's

1179
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:42,079
about to punch these dudes.

1180
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 1: Particular classic predator.

1181
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,159
Speaker 2: Well then, I mean he looked at him. He looks

1182
01:17:46,199 --> 01:17:50,800
like he's about eighteen feet tall and these boys are

1183
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:55,199
like literally in the process of shrinking. Dawkins looks like

1184
01:17:55,239 --> 01:17:57,159
he's about to just tip over and die.

1185
01:17:57,239 --> 01:17:58,720
Speaker 1: Rictory, and it is a good term.

1186
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:03,399
Speaker 5: You would say that lions instantiation of this bracket term

1187
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:04,000
of predator.

1188
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 4: Well, I would also say, would you therefore.

1189
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:08,600
Speaker 5: Say that a line is an instantiation of the bracket

1190
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:09,439
term of dragon?

1191
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:16,279
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, because see because.

1192
01:18:18,199 --> 01:18:21,159
Speaker 2: I think Alex thought he was going to get them

1193
01:18:21,159 --> 01:18:21,600
with that one.

1194
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:25,079
Speaker 1: We're not only fact oriented creatures, right, it actually matters

1195
01:18:25,159 --> 01:18:27,840
to us whether we get eaten. Like there's it's one

1196
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,600
thing to lay out the nomenclatcher of the animal kingdom,

1197
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,000
but it's another thing to remember that predators can eat you.

1198
01:18:34,199 --> 01:18:36,520
And then it's another thing. And this is very interesting,

1199
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,199
and it's relevant to that story of the Bronze serpent.

1200
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,079
It's like, what do we want to teach our children?

1201
01:18:42,239 --> 01:18:46,199
Well to identify predators obviously, well, what do we want

1202
01:18:46,239 --> 01:18:50,039
to teach them more profoundly, what attitude they should take

1203
01:18:50,199 --> 01:18:53,520
towards the eternal fact of the predator. And the attitude

1204
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,199
they should take is something like the courage to voluntarily

1205
01:18:56,239 --> 01:18:58,800
confront and not to run away, and not to hide

1206
01:18:58,840 --> 01:18:59,960
and not to freeze.

1207
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:05,159
Speaker 2: In other words, you should enter the Kumite. Study these moves,

1208
01:19:05,239 --> 01:19:07,720
and this is how you would win. That's how you

1209
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:12,920
beat the predator right here, watch all van dem movies.

1210
01:19:13,039 --> 01:19:16,720
Study them intently that's how you beat the predators.

1211
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,079
Speaker 1: Not to casually demonize, but to assume that in the

1212
01:19:20,119 --> 01:19:24,359
combat with the eternal predator, an eternal treasure might be found.

1213
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:26,479
And that's exactly what you do, whether you know it

1214
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,920
or not, when you teach a child to be courageous.

1215
01:19:29,359 --> 01:19:33,239
And we know from the psychological literature that generalizes, and

1216
01:19:33,319 --> 01:19:36,279
I do think it's identical with the mechanism of learning

1217
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:40,840
in human beings because kids us, we always learn on

1218
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:44,079
the edge. You know, in your own life, you know,

1219
01:19:45,079 --> 01:19:48,880
and I don't want to be presumptuous, but no doubt

1220
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:53,800
there have been situations where you've been battling to have

1221
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,680
your ideas distributed, even to modify your own conceptions when

1222
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:01,119
you had something new to learn. That's a sacri You

1223
01:20:01,199 --> 01:20:04,319
have to kill your stupidity so that you can move forward.

1224
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:06,600
That's what happens in the story of Abraham, by the way,

1225
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:11,159
when he makes sequential sacrifices. So in the story of Abraham,

1226
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:12,960
you tell me what do you think about this? Because

1227
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:16,920
it staggered me when I understood it. Abraham is a

1228
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:19,560
protected person. He doesn't have to lift a finger. He

1229
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,800
lives in the socialist utopia. He's got everything delivered hand

1230
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,960
to mouth. He's at home till he's seventy and God

1231
01:20:26,039 --> 01:20:27,359
comes to him as the voice of it.

1232
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 2: What does he saying to Abraham lived in a socialist utopia?

1233
01:20:35,119 --> 01:20:43,399
What is he talking so or of the Kaldis was

1234
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:48,960
the first socialist government? What does that mean? Maybe he

1235
01:20:49,079 --> 01:20:53,399
just means because but do we even know that Abraham

1236
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:57,199
is actually prominent in I mean we know his dad

1237
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:58,439
was the idol maker.

1238
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 1: But what a dventure which is something remarkable to see

1239
01:21:07,359 --> 01:21:09,279
and it says you can leave your zone of comfort

1240
01:21:09,279 --> 01:21:12,039
and deeled into the world, have your terrible adventure.

1241
01:21:12,359 --> 01:21:15,079
Speaker 2: And Abraham, dude, this is some kind of like I'm

1242
01:21:15,119 --> 01:21:20,439
just kind of blown away at the like the high

1243
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:25,359
high tee Peterson that's appeared, like this is the We're

1244
01:21:25,399 --> 01:21:29,399
gonna have U freaking UFC Peterson before we know it.

1245
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:33,199
He's going to be out there grappling with the Gracies

1246
01:21:33,279 --> 01:21:36,640
in the next year. What the heck's going on? Have

1247
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:40,920
you ever seen them him this animated like he's he's

1248
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:44,840
getting red, dude, He's like he's out there in Arizona

1249
01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:48,840
Jurassic Park drinking some of that dinosaur juice, getting getting

1250
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:54,840
juiced up, juiced up dinosaur Juice, who.

1251
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 1: Says yes, and then a series of cataclysms occurs around,

1252
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:02,680
just like it does in every adventurous life, and in

1253
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:03,359
every time.

1254
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 2: He's like one millisecond away from calling these people a

1255
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:12,439
bunch of soy retards. No, like he's about to just pop.

1256
01:22:14,319 --> 01:22:17,640
I like this new Peterson we're getting here. This is

1257
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:23,000
not the Peterson that was like crying every talk like

1258
01:22:23,079 --> 01:22:25,680
a year ago or two years ago. Remember that Peterson,

1259
01:22:27,039 --> 01:22:32,199
Remember that weep person we got now high tea, I'm

1260
01:22:32,199 --> 01:22:35,159
gonna bust your chops in Peterson. That's what I like.

1261
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,760
We got project Patterson. That's what I'm talking about. That's

1262
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:41,720
what I predicted at the beginning of the stream.

1263
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 1: I'm an episode concludes he makes the sacrifice what to

1264
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:49,720
get rid of what's stupid and old about him so

1265
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,800
that he can progress and transform, and that happens to

1266
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,199
such a degree that he gets a new name, which

1267
01:22:55,199 --> 01:22:57,640
means he's changed so dramatically he's not even the person

1268
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,680
he used to be. And that's a consequence. So following

1269
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:05,000
that adventurous pathway, and that's all coded in the story.

1270
01:23:05,359 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 3: I think we just have to agree that we have

1271
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,640
different kinds of minds, and you're interested in symbols, and

1272
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:13,600
I'm interested in facts. I mean, let me, let's take predators,

1273
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:17,760
I mean predators. I'm fascinated by predators. Predators are the

1274
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:19,399
relationship between the predators.

1275
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:23,079
Speaker 2: I bet he is a fascinated by predators. He gives

1276
01:23:23,079 --> 01:23:29,800
all predator vibes, doesn't he? I mean, yeah, you've given

1277
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:34,720
off them predator vibes. Boy, But you're really fascinated by

1278
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:39,920
predators now, he says, I'm interested in facts, not symbols.

1279
01:23:40,079 --> 01:23:43,840
Symbols can be facts, dummy, These are such midwits, man,

1280
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:47,720
this is this is painful to sit through. Maybe Jordan

1281
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:50,680
Peterson is just tired of talking to these midwits and

1282
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:53,800
he's just he's about the pop and just snaps some

1283
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:55,199
necks in a minute or something.

1284
01:23:55,399 --> 01:23:58,560
Speaker 3: He doesn't prey. He's an alms race, and even should

1285
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:05,239
alms race. Whenever you see a really complicated, beautifully designed

1286
01:24:05,319 --> 01:24:11,119
piece of biology, what hume I think what one of

1287
01:24:11,159 --> 01:24:15,239
Human's characters called things that ravish into admiration all who

1288
01:24:15,279 --> 01:24:18,159
contemplate them. This is almost certainly the result of an

1289
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:21,720
arms race, probably between predators and prey, could be between

1290
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:26,880
parasites and hosts and So if we are talking about

1291
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:34,000
adaptations to just the climate, wooly rhinoceroses grow hair because

1292
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:37,680
it's getting cold, that's relatively boring. But when it's an

1293
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:42,279
adaptation to a predator, then you get an escalation of

1294
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,439
adaptations by prey which are counted by predators, which are

1295
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:49,600
counted by prey counterbary, So you get a gradual escalation.

1296
01:24:50,239 --> 01:24:55,840
Now that's interesting. That explains why you have animals that

1297
01:24:55,960 --> 01:24:58,359
run fast, why they have keen sense of organs, why

1298
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:00,920
they have teeth, why they have show teeth, why they

1299
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:06,560
have behavior patterns that either protect them from predators or

1300
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:11,119
is there predators help them to catch pray. The idea

1301
01:25:11,159 --> 01:25:15,039
of the arms race is the thing that grabs me.

1302
01:25:15,119 --> 01:25:17,479
The arms race between nothing to do with dragons.

1303
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:22,119
Speaker 1: Okay, well, so okay, so fair enough, right, and I

1304
01:25:22,319 --> 01:25:28,600
share your appreciation for that remarkable what the remarkable phenomena

1305
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,439
that emerge in consequence of that? Okay, So let's take

1306
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:36,119
the idea of arms race. All right, So we here's

1307
01:25:36,159 --> 01:25:38,319
how I would construe what I said in what I

1308
01:25:38,399 --> 01:25:41,760
think might be your terms. All Right, we transformed the

1309
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:47,439
battle with the predator into a mean battle. We abstracted

1310
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,079
it so that we could figure out how to deal

1311
01:25:50,159 --> 01:25:53,119
not with a predator, but with the class of all

1312
01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:57,600
possible predators, right exactly, And the appropriate way to deal

1313
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,079
with the class of all possible predators is something like

1314
01:26:00,079 --> 01:26:02,079
a meta ethic. It's a stance that.

1315
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 2: Oh well, who talks about that all the time? Hmm,

1316
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:13,840
I wonder hmm tag me meta ethics. Now, good luck

1317
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:16,840
with these two midwits knowing what the heck you're talking about.

1318
01:26:17,319 --> 01:26:20,439
Red Mars says for fifteen dollars, tricky Dicky Dawkins doesn't

1319
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,279
like the Bible because it makes prescriptive claims instead of

1320
01:26:23,319 --> 01:26:26,319
facts about planets. Maybe if the ancients knew that the

1321
01:26:26,399 --> 01:26:29,319
universe had just a cosmic fart, it would have stopped

1322
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,159
so much evil from happening. Yeah, exactly. If they'd just

1323
01:26:32,199 --> 01:26:34,880
known that everything was meaningless, they would have operated in

1324
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:39,199
a rational way. See how logical that is, Steve, one

1325
01:26:39,279 --> 01:26:41,439
hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Steve, appreciate that for

1326
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:42,720
your Dawkins impression.

1327
01:26:43,039 --> 01:26:43,239
Speaker 3: Ah.

1328
01:26:43,359 --> 01:26:47,640
Speaker 8: Yes, I like predators because I myself am a predator.

1329
01:26:48,279 --> 01:26:52,439
Many ladies and others of the species have called me

1330
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:58,960
a predator, so I I like it myself to predators.

1331
01:27:00,279 --> 01:27:02,680
Speaker 1: Give an example of this. We actually know something about

1332
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:06,840
this psychophysiologically, and you can look at it spiritually or

1333
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:10,920
physically and it doesn't matter. So, for example, if you

1334
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:14,760
take people in psychotherapy and they're accidentally exposed to something

1335
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:19,560
they're afraid of, they have a stress response that's damaging

1336
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:23,439
if it's sustained, and they become more frightened. But if

1337
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:26,199
you expose them to exactly the same strip.

1338
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:32,279
Speaker 2: You know what's odd about this whole discussion is it

1339
01:27:32,319 --> 01:27:34,960
seems like how many How long are we into this?

1340
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:39,319
Now we're nearing the end of it, so we're over

1341
01:27:39,359 --> 01:27:41,760
an hour, so it's an hour and a half. Basically,

1342
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:46,359
Jordan Peterson trying to tell these two midwits about all

1343
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:49,399
the things that he finds fascinating, and then these two

1344
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,640
other midwes saying, well, I don't find those things neat.

1345
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,920
That's really what this is amounted to. Now, I'm saying

1346
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:00,399
that Jordan Peterson is talking about a range of things

1347
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:03,640
that are actually fascinating and which do actually make good

1348
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:08,199
points except for the weaknesses at the early on about

1349
01:28:08,239 --> 01:28:11,479
the specific question about the reality of the events, but

1350
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:14,600
the entire response of the two midwits, for the rest

1351
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,159
of this discussion has been that they don't find these

1352
01:28:17,159 --> 01:28:21,520
things interesting. I mean, we are dealing with public intellectuals

1353
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,319
who are still lauded in praise, who believe that it's

1354
01:28:25,359 --> 01:28:29,039
a sufficient reply to an argument, or to a statement

1355
01:28:29,159 --> 01:28:31,880
or to a question to say that I don't find

1356
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,680
that convincing. I don't find that interesting. Remember the Matt

1357
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:38,159
dill Hunty debate. He did this, He did this to me.

1358
01:28:38,319 --> 01:28:39,880
We see the atheists do this all the time. This

1359
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:43,720
is like Matt del Hunty's favorite retort. This is a fallacy.

1360
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:47,880
No one cares. It's called a psychological report. It's a

1361
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:51,560
fallacy of incredulity. I don't find that believable. So what's

1362
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:56,760
the argument? This is so tiring. So people were wondering,

1363
01:28:57,119 --> 01:29:00,199
why why did you stop doing debate reviews? Because the

1364
01:29:00,239 --> 01:29:05,119
so called public intellectuals are all midwits or suits and

1365
01:29:05,159 --> 01:29:06,720
they don't even know basic fallacies.

1366
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:12,600
Speaker 1: So what's the point, Yes, sir, and they do it voluntarily.

1367
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:17,560
They manifest an entirely different pattern of psychophysiological activation. Okay,

1368
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,800
and it's a it's a it's a stance of challenge, right,

1369
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:25,439
and not of fear. All right, And so one of

1370
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:27,760
the things that you're doing in psychotherapy when you get

1371
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:31,079
people to expose themselves to you could say predators, because

1372
01:29:31,079 --> 01:29:33,079
that's an accurate way of dealing with it. Is that

1373
01:29:33,159 --> 01:29:35,840
you get them to shift into a mode of voluntary

1374
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:40,279
confrontation instead of prey like apprehension and retreat. And what

1375
01:29:40,319 --> 01:29:43,159
they learn from that is that they can embody that pattern,

1376
01:29:43,359 --> 01:29:46,319
which I would call a spirit metaphysically. They can embody that,

1377
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:49,159
they can practice it. It's also the case there's some

1378
01:29:49,199 --> 01:29:50,439
evidence that there's empty.

1379
01:29:53,239 --> 01:29:57,079
Speaker 2: So well, it's interesting because Peterson ten years ago would

1380
01:29:57,079 --> 01:30:00,720
not say, uh, I'm talking about a spirit metaphysically. I mean,

1381
01:30:01,239 --> 01:30:05,560
remember we went through we analyzed at least maybe half

1382
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:11,720
of the personality lectures, and at that time, and maybe

1383
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:13,479
it was maybe he would say, because he was teaching

1384
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:18,199
a course on you know, psychology or whatever, he couldn't

1385
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,279
talk about the metaphysics. I don't know, but he seemed

1386
01:30:22,279 --> 01:30:24,960
to generally not want to go in that direction. So

1387
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,960
it's interesting to hear him talk about the ontological status,

1388
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:32,119
the meta ethical question, the metaphysics of spirit. I mean,

1389
01:30:33,079 --> 01:30:36,520
this does seem to be a different era of Peterson,

1390
01:30:38,159 --> 01:30:42,239
And I would point out that one of the things

1391
01:30:42,239 --> 01:30:50,079
that sparked the Pago versus Doctor Lindsay fracas was actually

1392
01:30:51,119 --> 01:30:55,079
the concession I would say. Now, it may not have

1393
01:30:55,079 --> 01:30:56,399
anything to do with me. I'm not saying it was

1394
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:59,439
due to me. But if you remember, maybe what a

1395
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:01,920
year ago, year and a half, maybe two years ago,

1396
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:08,920
Peterson was starting to critique the Enlightenment. Now, what was

1397
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:12,560
the very first critique that I did of Jordan Peterson

1398
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:19,439
seven eight years ago? Oh? It was about Enlightenment. Well,

1399
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:25,279
I'm glad to see things shifting in this direction, because

1400
01:31:25,279 --> 01:31:30,359
if you remember, I was pointing out the inadequacy of

1401
01:31:30,399 --> 01:31:36,000
the Enlightenment classical liberal ethos as a sufficient rejoinder to

1402
01:31:36,079 --> 01:31:49,239
modern liberalism and modernity? Where is it at Ago? Trying

1403
01:31:49,239 --> 01:31:58,720
to find exactly where it's at? Seven years ago? This

1404
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:01,560
is it? Even years ago I did the critique of

1405
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:08,079
classical liberalism, and now we have an era of JBP,

1406
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:13,239
I would say, via Pago discussions. Probably I'm guessing I

1407
01:32:13,239 --> 01:32:18,319
don't know, but I'm assuming that that has some degree

1408
01:32:18,319 --> 01:32:23,199
of influence there to critique these Enlightenment ideas, which is good.

1409
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:27,239
And if I recall, that's what sparked some of this

1410
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:35,039
Lindsey drama let's move on towards the end. I don't

1411
01:32:35,039 --> 01:32:37,199
know if I can. I don't see any more super chats.

1412
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:40,520
I was going to take calls. I apologize. There's not

1413
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:43,880
really anybody. There's one person, but we've been going for

1414
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:45,880
a long time, and I'm pretty sick still, so I

1415
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:49,800
think my minimum levels of energy due to sickness are

1416
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:53,319
pretty much like drawing thin. So I don't think I

1417
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:58,640
have much more energy. But if you guys want to

1418
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:00,640
watch the rest of this, I'm sure you can see

1419
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:02,840
it right here. I don't know what the bulb one

1420
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:07,760
effect is, but it looks like the discussion. I guess

1421
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:10,920
it went about as I expected. It's funny to me

1422
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:14,600
that Dawkins didn't really say a whole lot. I mean

1423
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:20,000
pretty much. Jordan Peterson was like heated and animated the

1424
01:33:20,199 --> 01:33:24,319
entire time, which was enjoyable. I would say he dominated

1425
01:33:24,319 --> 01:33:26,520
the discussion, and the other two sort of soy men

1426
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:33,800
were kind of like sort of cowering and like shrinking.

1427
01:33:34,239 --> 01:33:38,000
So Jordan Peterson looks Jordan Pearson looks like the CEO

1428
01:33:38,159 --> 01:33:42,079
of a company, like setting a bunch of people straight

1429
01:33:42,199 --> 01:33:45,359
before the great the merger, and these are the people

1430
01:33:45,359 --> 01:33:47,760
that are getting let go for their failures. That's that

1431
01:33:48,119 --> 01:33:51,279
this is the boardroom. These are the people getting let go,

1432
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:54,920
and they're getting screamed at. That's essentially my analysis of

1433
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:59,239
this debate. Anyway, I hope you guys had fun. Hopefully

1434
01:33:59,239 --> 01:34:03,920
I will be full one back to health in the

1435
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:06,840
next few days. And uh I