1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,679 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: Mister Thomas, you're wearing your La Union Rep sweatshirt. I see. 17 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,880 I've never seen you wear anything from entertainment executive days, 18 00:00:55,399 --> 00:00:58,960 so that's interesting to me. Today. Normally you're wearing you know, 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,960 I think the latest thing is gifts from our friends 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,480 in New Zealand that say huffer. But I've never seen 21 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,760 you wear in La Union rap stuff. This is pretty cool. 22 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: Well, this is because it's cold here and the snow 23 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,560 is coming, and so I've been digging through the closet 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,680 looking for warm fuzzy jackets and sweatshirts and stuff. 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 3: I love the fact that you were giving a fuzzy 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,959 sweatshirt slash jacket in La It does kicked cool. 27 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,799 Speaker 2: At night there, and it's known to rain sometimes. 28 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 3: I was going to put it to the thingcationally every 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:34,480 once in a great while. 30 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like this one. I get a lot of compliments. 31 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean it's it says right there La 32 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,000 La Union. 33 00:01:41,879 --> 00:01:42,519 Speaker 2: Yeah. 34 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:45,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. We don't hear enough stories I think from your 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,760 music EXAC and entertainment exec days. And you know, if 36 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:52,000 we choose to pivot this podcast to things other than crime, 37 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,200 I think we need to do who are the cool 38 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:56,760 people that Bill knows? Because every once in a while, guys, 39 00:01:56,799 --> 00:01:59,359 he'll just drop something on me, like he told me 40 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:01,840 the other day he knows somebody who knows Alison Janny 41 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,239 And I'm like, excuse me, She's my favorite actress. What 42 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:07,640 do you mean you know someone who knows Alison Janny. 43 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,240 I'm sorry, Well. 44 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,199 Speaker 2: It would be more meaningful if I'd met Alice and 45 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,840 Janny herself. I know sometimes it'll come up, particularly with 46 00:02:15,199 --> 00:02:19,280 musicians and film and television people. A name will come 47 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,560 up and all realize, oh, yeah, I met that person. 48 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,759 Speaker 3: Hadn't you said you met Sting or something like that, 49 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,879 And I was very impressed. 50 00:02:26,199 --> 00:02:30,159 Speaker 2: I didn't think I ever mentioned the stingmeister, But there 51 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,280 are plenty of others the stingmister. 52 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 3: That's exactly what he asked everybody to call him. 53 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: Gordon Sumner is his birth name. 54 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,879 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, he was see where he goes by sting 55 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:44,240 with them. 56 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 2: He was a school teacher. Did you know that? No? 57 00:02:48,439 --> 00:02:48,879 Speaker 3: I did not. 58 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,879 Speaker 2: Actually, if you listen to this song, don't stand so 59 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,120 close to me, which is why you know that one. 60 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,240 Nabokov but I think they're sting would probably soon me 61 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,439 for saying this. I'm actually wondering if there might be 62 00:03:03,479 --> 00:03:07,599 a little bit of autobiographical element in that song, because 63 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:11,439 it's all about a teacher and an yeah, in a 64 00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:15,560 potentially inappropriate relationship with a younger woman. 65 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:19,199 Speaker 3: So no song, that song has always creeped me out. 66 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: So wow, it's it's designed too, by the way. Every 67 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:25,800 breath you take, which is one of the police's biggest hits. 68 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,039 If you listen to it carefully, It's not actually a 69 00:03:29,159 --> 00:03:32,960 romantic song at all. It's about stalking. It's about a 70 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,199 man who is stalking a woman and sting himself. Has 71 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,599 said in interviews that he is baffled that people want 72 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:46,520 to play every bath you at weddings and other celebrations. 73 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,719 He said, it's really a creepy saw. 74 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and those of us in the true crime space 75 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,759 have been have known for years it's about stalking. It's 76 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:55,319 not great. 77 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:56,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. 78 00:03:56,199 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: Well, before we get into how things have been over 79 00:03:59,439 --> 00:04:01,800 the last couple couple of weeks since the big announcement, 80 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,080 we've had a couple of people ask us when are 81 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,400 we going to do an episode on Nancy Guthrie, And 82 00:04:06,719 --> 00:04:09,039 I want to go ahead and acknowledge that, like never, 83 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,879 we're not going to. And it's for this simple reason 84 00:04:11,919 --> 00:04:14,919 that there is already too much background noise around the case. 85 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,279 There is literally nothing that we can add to anything 86 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,759 that is going to help in any way, shape or form. 87 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:26,480 So we've been discussing amongst ourselves how things are going 88 00:04:26,519 --> 00:04:28,759 in the guth three case, but we're not going to 89 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,160 put out an episode. There is literally nothing that we 90 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:31,920 can add to it. 91 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,079 Speaker 2: There's so much out there already on the guth Three case, 92 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,439 and quite frankly, I think there's too much out there. Yeah, 93 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:45,079 the baseless speculation and people tossing out theories and blaming 94 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,720 the family. I get very uncomfortable. You and I are 95 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,480 both following the case pretty closely. We're amazed how many 96 00:04:53,519 --> 00:04:58,639 friends of ours are being asked to appear on various 97 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,720 news and talk proms to give their perspective. But these 98 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,680 are experts. You know, a lot of former law enforcement, 99 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,279 former FBI people that we know, and we've seen a 100 00:05:09,399 --> 00:05:13,879 lot of folks up here on various programs discussing what's 101 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,240 going on with the Guthrie case. 102 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. I was talking to a friend at school who 103 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,959 you know, follows our podcast and on our activities very closely, 104 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,199 and he said, yeah, I was watching the nudes the 105 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:27,000 other night and one of your friends was talking about 106 00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:29,600 Nancy Guthrie. And I said which one? And he goes, oh, no, 107 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,439 I don't keep track of him. And I said, well, 108 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,920 was it a profiler? He goes yeah, and I said, 109 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,720 well Jim Fitzgerald. He goes, no, who's the Who's the 110 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:38,800 tall bald one? And I was like, oh, Jim Clementy 111 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:41,639 and he goes, are you sure there's not any others? 112 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,839 And I'm like, no, it's it's probably Jim Clementy. And 113 00:05:43,879 --> 00:05:46,480 he's like, how many profilers do you know? And I 114 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,800 really had to think about that. Yeah, there was like 115 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,279 I think the answer is like five. 116 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: Oh, I would say at a minimum, yes. 117 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,519 Speaker 3: Its Ray, Jim, John Douglas, and Julie Colly. 118 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that's five right there, that's five right there. 119 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's just too much going on with the 120 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,040 case right now, and as you said, the baseless speculation 121 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:15,160 and the finger pointing, it's terribly uncomfortable. And I mean 122 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:19,000 I imagine that from a family member's perspective. When the 123 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,839 Colonial Parkway murders first, you know, sort of came on 124 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,000 to the radar, how much media was there? Were you 125 00:06:26,079 --> 00:06:29,920 and your family being asked to give statements and such 126 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,800 like on a fairly regular basis or I mean it's 127 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,480 we're in a very different place now with the news cycle. 128 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,040 This was huge news when it first started. So what 129 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,720 was the media experience like for you? 130 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, from my parents' perspective, they completely 131 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,399 shut the media down when Kathy and Becky died. None 132 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:52,439 of the other victims had been killed at that point, 133 00:06:52,519 --> 00:06:55,639 so they were the first. There was a tremendous amount 134 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,319 of interest, mostly from the Boston media. My parents house 135 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,519 in Lowell, Massachusetts, which is up north in Boston, and 136 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,279 so that's the Boston TV market. My family was flooded 137 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:10,439 with inquiries, but my parents just shut them down. They 138 00:07:10,519 --> 00:07:14,560 said no to everyone. The only interview they did they 139 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,319 did one interview with the Lowell Sun, which is the 140 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,199 newspaper up there. I mean, I remember the Boston Globe 141 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,439 and the Boston Herald and all the TV stations. If 142 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:27,800 my parents had cooperated, I'm sure there would have been 143 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,720 all sorts of additional coverage of Kathy and Becky's murder. 144 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,040 But because my parents decided that they were not going 145 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:38,160 to do any interviews beyond one single interview with the 146 00:07:38,199 --> 00:07:41,680 Lowell Sun, they basically shut the media down. And so 147 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,360 you're not going to get much from the FBI, and 148 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:50,040 local law enforcement wasn't leading the investigation. So there was 149 00:07:50,079 --> 00:07:52,399 a lot of coverage in Virginia because it was a 150 00:07:52,399 --> 00:07:56,360 local story, but in terms of up in Boston or nationally, 151 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,000 because my parents made the decision to completely shut down 152 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:03,319 the media, the interest in the case died very quickly. 153 00:08:04,199 --> 00:08:07,279 The story could have exploded. I remember the New York 154 00:08:07,399 --> 00:08:10,279 tabloid to see that the Daily News or the Post 155 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:15,319 had this terrible front page story, full size front page story, 156 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:18,759 co ed throats slashed. 157 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think I've seen that. 158 00:08:21,279 --> 00:08:24,639 Speaker 2: Only photographs they had of Kathy and Becky were like 159 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,800 driver's license pictures because a, yeah, my parents didn't provide 160 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:33,559 any pictures. I don't believe the Dawskies did either. There 161 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:36,399 was a lot of coverage in Virginia, but unless there's 162 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:40,159 somebody willing to talk about it, the interest in the 163 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:45,559 case begins to slow pretty rapidly. It was also a 164 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:49,039 very different world, because that's almost forty years ago. Now, yeah, 165 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:52,080 we've talked about thirty nine and a half years is 166 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,759 a long time to wait for answers in a case 167 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:58,080 like ours. It's very important to understand, though, that the 168 00:08:58,159 --> 00:09:00,759 world was a very different place back then. It was 169 00:09:00,799 --> 00:09:03,799 mostly driven by newspapers, which I still hold in very 170 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:10,679 high regard, and television. Those are the two big media outlets. Again, 171 00:09:10,799 --> 00:09:15,720 no internet, no cell phones, no podcasts, certainly. 172 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,879 Speaker 3: The podcast no streaming service is nothing that fine. No, 173 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:21,720 And then I mean, over the years when you started 174 00:09:21,799 --> 00:09:25,679 hitting big anniversaries and people started thinking the cases were linked. 175 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,000 So when you hit year ten, you're twenty, was there 176 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,559 more of a media presence? I mean, certainly, you and 177 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,320 I made sure that there was plenty of media presents 178 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,399 for thirty and we were going to do a bang 179 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,480 up job for forty also if it got that far, 180 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,039 god forbid. But was there a lot of media presence 181 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,840 for ten and twenty some in Virginia? 182 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. It wasn't until I got involved in the case 183 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,799 in a much more serious way after the FBI crime 184 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,639 scene photo leak story hit the media, and that would 185 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:03,080 have been in September two thousand and nine, and I 186 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:05,240 found out about it a couple of weeks later, just 187 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:07,720 by chance, as we've talked about on the podcast here. 188 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:13,440 After that, as things moved forward, the families working together, 189 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,480 we were actually seeking additional coverage because we felt that 190 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,720 we could use the FBI's embarrassment about the crime scene 191 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:28,759 photos to leverage their embarrassment, which they deserved and worked, 192 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,679 and to force them to put resources back into the case. 193 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,840 And this was all a very conscious decision on our part. 194 00:10:34,919 --> 00:10:39,480 I dreamed this idea up that we could start hammering 195 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:42,080 on the FBI about the crime scene photos. And I 196 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,919 remember I talked to the Call family first, and I 197 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,039 was on the phone with Joyce Call Canada. She was 198 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,279 Joyce Call at that point and her younger brother Chris, 199 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,200 and I ran this idea past them and they were 200 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,120 very enthusiastic and they said, that's a great idea, let's 201 00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:03,399 do it. So we really began a media blitz in 202 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:06,919 Virginia to push the narrative that the FBI needed to 203 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,080 put resources back into the case. And it worked, and 204 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,440 the FBI even admitted to us it was working. They 205 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,279 didn't say anything publicly, but they said to me privately enough, 206 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:23,519 we get it, we understand you guys are upset, and 207 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,559 we commit to putting resources back into the case, which 208 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,080 they did do. In that way, media can be very good. 209 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,720 Where I get concerned with a situation like Nancy Guthrie's 210 00:11:34,759 --> 00:11:39,320 case is I'm not sure all of this endless media 211 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,559 spotlight is a positive thing. 212 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 3: Now. 213 00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: I'm not sure it's helping the case. I'm not sure 214 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,679 it's helping the investigation. Some of the interests almost begins 215 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,000 to feel unhealthy. I read something interesting today, which is 216 00:11:53,159 --> 00:11:56,480 that on the Today program which is where Savannah Guthrie 217 00:11:56,519 --> 00:12:02,639 normally works. They've led with that story about Nancy Guthrie's 218 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,399 whereabouts every single morning since she was kidnapped until today, 219 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:12,600 and then today as a result of Andrew formerly Prince Andrew, 220 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,799 being arrested in the UK, that was the first time. Wow, 221 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,720 in what are we looking at? Two weeks here, seventeen days? 222 00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:26,559 I think that they haven't led with Nancy guthries whereabouts 223 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:27,759 on the Today program. 224 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,919 Speaker 3: You know, we posted an article yesterday on the might 225 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,360 have murdered social media page about the New York Times 226 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:39,720 is reporting the fact that this does feel very very 227 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,399 it's unhealthy, it's intrusive. You know. They were mentioning the 228 00:12:44,399 --> 00:12:47,720 fact that there are people live streaming twenty four to 229 00:12:47,759 --> 00:12:53,039 seven from outside of Nancy Guthrie's house, just waiting for 230 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,720 that break in the case. And it reminds me very 231 00:12:55,799 --> 00:12:59,799 much of the people who would pull up stakes and 232 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,480 drive out to Idaho or fly out to Idaho and 233 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,679 stay out there for weeks waiting for something. With the 234 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:13,039 Idaho four case, it becomes in this quest for clicks 235 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,919 or views or likes or shares or whatever it is 236 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:20,759 that you're going after, it becomes a holy obsessive and 237 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:24,960 I think quite unhealthy. It's not good for anybody. It's 238 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,519 not good for the people who are doing it, and 239 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,919 it's not good for there to be this much scrutiny 240 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,200 on the case. I feel very, very bad for the 241 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,639 Guthrie family. I feel terrible for the people in her 242 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,759 neighborhood who are doubtless having a hard time doing daily 243 00:13:40,799 --> 00:13:44,000 living things when you've got the press, the FBI and 244 00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:47,879 everybody else sort of swarming constantly. And I feel bad 245 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:49,960 for the sheriff who has been put in a position 246 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:52,840 that I don't think anybody would want to be put in. 247 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,159 I'm sure that James Fry from the Idaho from the Moscow, 248 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,919 Idaho Police Department didn't want to be in the same 249 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:02,720 position either. And it came down to finding out who 250 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,120 killed the four college students in Idaho either. This all 251 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,639 feels it feels very unhealthy, and it feels very unwise. 252 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,399 And this is where I definitely get the sense I 253 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,159 was talking about this with Cheryl McCollum the other day. 254 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:20,279 We've got to come up with a better way, like 255 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,720 as a community, both of sands and of content creators, 256 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,960 to do this more ethically. There has to be a 257 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,000 better way to do it. This is just so it 258 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,799 all feels very I guess rubbernecky is the word that 259 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,960 I'm looking for, and it's not quite the right word, 260 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,240 but do you get what I'm saying. 261 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,399 Speaker 2: I think it's creepy. I mean, I'll be the first 262 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,200 to admit that there's a peculiar thing going on. We're 263 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,879 seeing it now with Nancy Guthrie of just this swarming mentality, 264 00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:56,039 and I mean, you can go all the way back 265 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:02,000 to the Lindbergh baby or I don't know if you've 266 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,840 ever read or heard about Jessica McClure was a little 267 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,519 girl you fell down a well, Oh yeah, I remember that. 268 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,039 It was in the eighties and it just got none 269 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,600 stop coverage and it just went on and on and on. 270 00:15:17,399 --> 00:15:21,000 I agree with you. I think it's unhealthy. I think 271 00:15:21,039 --> 00:15:29,200 there's an aspect of sensationalism, just voyeurism. Voyeurism is certainly appropriate. 272 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:32,919 And then the thing I'm most troubled by is the 273 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,759 baseless speculation. Now here's this family who are clearly going 274 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:41,080 through a horrific time of it with their eighty four 275 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:44,399 year old mom and grandmom who has disappeared and has 276 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,039 not been found, and you said, I think it's seventeen days. 277 00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:51,919 But then for people to start floating these theories which 278 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:54,600 don't seem to have any basis in reality, but then 279 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,000 people decide, oh, it's got to be the daughter and 280 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,840 her husband in law. They're after her money or whatever 281 00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:06,440 it is. I find this stuff all really disturbing. I mean, 282 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,919 we're essentially attacking this family who are just trying to 283 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,799 get through what is probably one of the most challenging 284 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,000 things they've ever been through. 285 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: It's coming from people who have no more idea of 286 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,720 what is actually going on in the case than anybody else. 287 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,399 The only people who really know what's going on inside 288 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,200 the investigation are people inside the investigation. Bill and I 289 00:16:28,279 --> 00:16:32,919 were talking offline yesterday, and as much insider knowledge as 290 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,679 we have in our own case cafing backing the rest 291 00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:39,360 of the Colonial Parkway murders, we still don't know what 292 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,080 actually went on inside the investigation. We've never been invited 293 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,240 into a room with the FBI, We've never been given 294 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,120 information about here's what we were thinking and here's what 295 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:54,360 we did. We still know next to nothing. So even 296 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,799 our reporting on things that we know inside and out 297 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,960 that we can both recite in our sleep. We still 298 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,640 really are only getting that secondhand that anybody can pretend 299 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:08,680 to know the motives of people that they've only vaguely 300 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:12,079 seen on the TV screen. I found that ludicrous in 301 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,759 the extreme. It's ridiculous the amount of cat sighting that 302 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:19,680 I've seen in comments sections. Well, how could you possibly know? Well, 303 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,920 how could you possibly know? Well, if you guys know 304 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,680 these people, you know personally. 305 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: Well, and I'm not going to waste my time, and 306 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,839 I know you're not either. We do a true crime 307 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,799 podcast here. If we wanted to be covering the Nancy 308 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:38,079 Guthrie case NonStop, I guess we could, and we could 309 00:17:38,079 --> 00:17:41,640 be getting people to talk to us online here and 310 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,480 telling us what their theories are. I mean, you know, 311 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:47,000 the latest thing I'm seeing is that could this be 312 00:17:47,079 --> 00:17:52,559 the Mexican cartels because Missus Guthrie's home is fairly close 313 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:55,519 to the Mexico border. I mean, we can just keep 314 00:17:55,559 --> 00:17:58,799 going down any bizarre road we want to, you know, 315 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,039 I mean, I don't know why no one's come up 316 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:06,319 with the aliens have clearly kidnapped Missus Guthrie, or whatever 317 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,039 other insane crap you want to put out there. 318 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 3: The troop of Cabra. 319 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a good one. I shouldn't laugh because 320 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:22,319 this is probably being discussed online somewhere as we speak. Honestly, 321 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,799 so we are following the case. My heart goes out 322 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:29,319 to the Guthrie family, all of them, and I hope 323 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,319 that all of the law enforcement agencies can work together 324 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,079 and get to the bottom of what happened to this 325 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,480 poor lady. I am sadly not optimistic based on you know, 326 00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:44,799 the people that we've talked to about the case offline, 327 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,079 including people that are experts in terms of kidnapping and 328 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:52,799 things like that, particularly from the FBI, and this is 329 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,279 an area of expertise for them. The whole thing I 330 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:00,240 think is pretty distasteful, and I'm not passing judge one 331 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:04,319 on anybody that finds the case interesting. I certainly have 332 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,759 read my share of articles about what's going on with 333 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:09,839 the case. By the way, thank you you put up 334 00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:13,640 that very interesting New York Times piece, which precipitated some 335 00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:18,440 very interesting conversation it did. Yeah, and some people who 336 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,400 are listeners of Mind over Murder have said they're kind of. 337 00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:23,599 Speaker 3: Over it too. 338 00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very sad situation. I hope it works out. Yeah, 339 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,079 I'm not terribly optimistic. Just based on what we know 340 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,640 about the history of how kidnappings work. I would expect 341 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,200 we will mention it from time to time, but we're 342 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,559 not going to go all Nantic Guthrie all the time. 343 00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:46,079 Speaker 3: Bill, How has it been over the last three weeks 344 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,640 since we had our big revelation from the FBI that 345 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,279 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was linked to va DNA to 346 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,680 kathyin Becky's murders. It's been a hell of a ride 347 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,559 for both of us. Know how you're doing, how you're 348 00:20:01,599 --> 00:20:02,079 holding up? 349 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: Well, I'm fine. At the same time, I'm very frustrated 350 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,799 with the FBI. In the three weeks since we had 351 00:20:09,839 --> 00:20:12,839 our face to face meeting, they have completely shut me 352 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,720 out again. They are not telling us anything. I requested 353 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:21,960 a follow up conversation, which likely would have been a 354 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,440 phoner three weeks ago, and I have heard absolutely nothing. 355 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:30,400 And one of the things that's really infuriating is that 356 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:34,039 Bob Dowski, Becky's older brother, who was there with me 357 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,079 at the meeting, he requested a meeting for a similar 358 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,440 follow up, and they spoke with him for several hours 359 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:47,960 two days after our meeting, I made a similar request, 360 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,759 referencing the fact that they had follow up meeting with Bobdowski, 361 00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:55,680 and I requested similar treatment, and I'm getting nothing. This 362 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,079 is so typical of the FBI. I felt like we 363 00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:03,559 were very badly manipulated during the meeting, and some of 364 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:08,000 the things that we discovered after the meeting, for example, 365 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,200 the fact that they dropped a press release exactly at 366 00:21:12,279 --> 00:21:15,759 nine am, which referenced the fact that Bill Thomas and 367 00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:21,279 Bobdowski were there at the announcement when there was no announcement. 368 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:24,720 All they did was they sent out a press release, 369 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:29,480 the one that thanked us for attending the announcement, and 370 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:35,519 Dominice Evans put out a brief statement. She's the special 371 00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:38,319 Agent in charge of the Norfolk Office. I had no 372 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,559 problem with what mss Evans said in her video. We 373 00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:49,200 were given no opportunity whatsoever to say anything about our sisters. 374 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:53,359 We were given no opportunity to insert a quote, which 375 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,240 it must be noted the Virginia State Police have had 376 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,000 two press conferences, the FBI has had none. And in 377 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:06,759 the FBI's insistence on power and control, which is what 378 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:11,240 this is really all about, yep, they completely blocked our 379 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,319 families from having any opportunity to participate in a live 380 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,920 press event or even to insert a statement about how 381 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,640 we would like Kathy and Becky to be remembered, which 382 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:24,799 is infuriating. And then at the same time, when the 383 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,079 Virginia State Police had their two press conferences so far 384 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,119 in the last two years, they invited the families and 385 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:35,359 ask the families to make a statement, which I would 386 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,920 have been perfectly happy to do. In my sense is 387 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,440 that Bobdowski would have done the same. So there's no 388 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,240 opportunity for us to weigh in at all. I don't 389 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,319 think there's much way around this. I don't think the 390 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,319 FBI wants to put a microphone anywhere near me because 391 00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:54,480 they're afraid I will criticize the way they've handled this 392 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,960 case as I have for the last X number of years. 393 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:02,839 Speaker 3: Almost like they've never listened to this podcast before. 394 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,039 Speaker 2: Hmmmmmm, well, we know they do listen to this podcast. 395 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 3: I mean, it's so funny that they opted not to 396 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:14,039 have a press conference, as if that somehow is going 397 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,200 to stop you from getting in front of the microphone 398 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,279 in your very own home and saying everything that you 399 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,920 need to say. They're going to hear it one way 400 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,880 or the other. Now it sounds like it might be 401 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,400 time for a little saber rattling, just to make sure 402 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,200 that they're aware that it's not appropriate for them to 403 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,680 try to shut you down entirely. You deserve answers. They 404 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,920 gave them to Bob. It is time for Bill to 405 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,799 get some answers too. 406 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 407 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:51,720 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 408 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,480 mindover Murder, So I mean, I will continue to follow 409 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,559 up with them, but they are once again moving into 410 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,759 radio silence, saying nothing, providing no information. We've had a 411 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:09,000 lot of questions from listeners on social media, and we'll 412 00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,400 do our best to answer them. But I think anyone 413 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,240 that's been paying attention is probably not going to be 414 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:20,160 surprised at how many questions I have and they have 415 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,680 that have not yet been answered. And I'm not terribly 416 00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:28,160 optimistic because the FBI doesn't seem to be answering questions 417 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,759 in the Colonial Parkway murders. To be fair, they are 418 00:24:31,799 --> 00:24:35,960 continuing to work on the disappearance of Keith Calling, Cassandra Haley, 419 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:39,240 and the murder of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower, 420 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,519 and those two things are very important to you and 421 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:46,880 me as well as to their families. So we are 422 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,240 completely committed to helping this case move forward. The call 423 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,319 Haley Phelps and Lower families deserve answers, just like the 424 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,880 first four families that have gotten answer in the Colonial 425 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,680 Parkway murders. So we're far from done, and I do 426 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:06,400 want to make it clear we do support the Virginia 427 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,920 State Police and the FBI in their efforts to continue 428 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,799 to move this case forward, and we do very much 429 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:16,440 appreciate all the work that they've done. There's more work 430 00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:20,160 to be done. Anything I say here today or any 431 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,920 other time shouldn't be heard as me trying to discourage 432 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,160 law enforcement from moving forward. 433 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 3: Right exactly. We do have some questions that came from 434 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:32,559 some longtime listeners, and I'll go ahead and start with 435 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,960 one that I needed a little explaining on. I think 436 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,880 it's probably a good time to go ahead and kind 437 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,799 of dig into what was the DNA evidence and what 438 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,960 was not the DNA evidence. We'd established on one of 439 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,680 our podcasts already that the DNA that was tested was 440 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,599 not the hair in Kathy's hand, But again just reiterate 441 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,160 for us, where do we stand with the hair? Before 442 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:55,599 I ask this. 443 00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: Question, we don't know what the status is with the 444 00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:01,160 hair because the FBI refuses to answer the question. So 445 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,200 I've been asking this question for decades and I still 446 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,200 don't have an answer on what the status is on 447 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,680 the hair in my sister's hand. And for those who 448 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:15,200 are not familiar, in Kathy's autopsy report, the chief Medical 449 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,480 Examiner for the Commonwealth of Virginia clearly indicated that Kathy 450 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:22,920 had hair in her hand which they believed to be 451 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:26,559 human hair. That could obviously be Kathy's hair, It could 452 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:29,079 be Becky's hair and as part of a struggle, or 453 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,160 it could be the offender's hair, or it could have 454 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,640 come from another source. I still can't get a straight 455 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,960 answer from the FBI on what the status of the 456 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:38,359 hair is. 457 00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 3: We had a lot of people who jumped right to 458 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,880 the conclusion that it was the hair that was the 459 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,319 silver bullet in this case, but it was not. In fact, 460 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,920 it was DNA that was found on Becky's bra. So 461 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,200 let me start with this question from Heather, and I 462 00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:57,759 like her little preface here. She says, I know you 463 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:00,279 don't curse on the podcast, So I will either, But 464 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,599 how which sometimes we do, you know, curse on the podcast? 465 00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:07,240 So I won't either, But how EXPLOITIVI? And long have 466 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480 they been aware of this DNA evidence on Becky's clothing? 467 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:14,319 It seems like this just came out of nowhere. Did 468 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:17,839 they just discover this samples existence after thirty nine years 469 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,400 or did the technology get better? 470 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: It's really the technology got better, Heather. You know, I've 471 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,680 had plenty of criticism of the FBI. They made it 472 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:33,359 clear to us they had tested items in evidence from 473 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:39,359 Kathy's car. This obviously includes Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's bodies, 474 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,680 which were clothed. Kathy in the way back of the Honda, 475 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:47,160 Becky on the diagonal, in the back seat of this 476 00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:51,759 two door small car. So they had tested lots of 477 00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:56,839 items from inside the car, you know, the car interior itself, 478 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,160 the floor mats, the rugs, the sea and there's a 479 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,079 significant amount of blood. And don't forget we have diesel 480 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,000 fuel or kerosene that's poured over the bodies, which made 481 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:13,400 things a tremendous mess. In terms of where they found 482 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,519 this evidence, they had tested a number of times articles 483 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,079 of clothing. This is that my sister Kathy had a 484 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,880 white basf long sleeve jersey on and track pants. If 485 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,160 I'm not mistaken. Yep, Becky had on a windbreaker underneath 486 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,759 that was a T shirt. She was wearing a bra 487 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,480 underneath a T shirt and then shorts. And these were sporty, 488 00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:43,559 athletic women and it was October, so they might have 489 00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:45,880 been pushing the season a little bit, but they were 490 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:52,319 wearing sportswear. Now, apparently this time around they got lucky. 491 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,960 And they said this to us over the table. And 492 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,640 I'm not criticizing, I'm thrilled they had tested that evidence 493 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:14,000 before Kathy's shirt and pants, their underwear, Becky's jacket, T shirt, bra, panties, shorts, socks, 494 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:17,400 I'm sure, the whole thing, but they hadn't gotten a 495 00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:22,000 DNA hit. Now, remember the evidence testing has gotten so 496 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:25,680 much better, and this is exciting. They tested as far 497 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,240 back as like twenty eleven and did not get a 498 00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:32,160 DNA hit. And as they were explaining to us and 499 00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:35,000 other experts have walks us through this before, you're in 500 00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:40,160 mind over murder and elsewhere. DNA testing of this type 501 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:44,759 it's an educated guessing game. You're looking to see where 502 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,480 might an offender's DNA have been deposited. We know they 503 00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:56,200 tested this evidence their clothing specifically a number of times, 504 00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,160 but they hadn't gotten a hit. Now thanks to the 505 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,400 advancements in level of refinement of DNA, and we saw 506 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,759 this in the Robin Edwards David Knobling example as well 507 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,079 with the evidence from Robin's RAPEKP. We hadn't gotten a 508 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,160 DNA hit previously, same situation. And then with the more 509 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:19,720 refined tests. And thank you to DNA Labs International in 510 00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:23,480 Florida that did the testing on all the Colonial Parkway murders. 511 00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:26,279 As far as we know, they've done all the testing. 512 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,960 They got lucky. As how they characterized it to us 513 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,200 with the meeting with the FBI. So they discovered male 514 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,359 DNA on Becky's bra. As they said to us at 515 00:30:38,359 --> 00:30:43,359 the meeting, there's no relationship between Wilmer and Kathy Thomas 516 00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:47,480 and Rebecca Dowski, so there's no reason for Wilmer's DNA 517 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,839 to be on Becky's bra. If he were her boyfriend 518 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,519 or something like that, that might be a different story. Yeah, 519 00:30:55,119 --> 00:31:01,920 it's mostly about the evidence testing being so much more sensitive. Heather, 520 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:06,319 I get your impatience, and I share it. The truth 521 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,920 is we got lucky, is how they put it, because 522 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,400 the tests are so much more sensitive than they ever 523 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,519 were before. The DNA on the bra was found this 524 00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:19,920 time around where it had not been found in previous tests. 525 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,799 A frustrating follow up to that. Though Bob and I 526 00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:27,160 are both very curious people, and we're both quite knowledgeable 527 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,240 about the case. We wanted to know what kind of 528 00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:34,799 DNA it was. Was it saliva, was it semen? Was 529 00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:40,160 it blood? Was it touch DNA? And they wouldn't say. 530 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,680 I'm going to go on a little bit of a 531 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,160 skinny branch here and say, in my opinion, it's likely 532 00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:49,960 touch DNA. But they did not confirm that. And this 533 00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:54,000 kind of makes me crazy because they did answer some questions. 534 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,720 For instance, right out of the shoot, I said which 535 00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:01,960 outside lab did the work? Did the DNA work? And 536 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,400 they said DNA Labs International, which was a name we 537 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,720 were very familiar with. We knew they had done other 538 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:11,640 work in the past ten years. Their name had come 539 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,480 up several times. We knew that the Commonwealth of Virginia 540 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:19,640 had applied for ASAKI grant which they used in the 541 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:25,599 Robin Edwards and David Nobling and Teresa Howell cases, and 542 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,440 then again in the lori Ane Powell murder, the FBI, 543 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,359 working with the Virginia State Police, had applied for OSAKI 544 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,599 grant and they went with DNA Labs International, who have 545 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:39,920 the contract with Virginia to do this kind of testing. 546 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,839 Apologies for the long winded answer, but I think that's 547 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:47,759 an in depth response to Heather's first question. 548 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is definitely okay. Second one, also from Heather. 549 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,119 Bill had said before that he'd interviewed the person who 550 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,279 gave the two polygraph tests to Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 551 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,559 Were you given the questions that the suspect was asked? 552 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,920 Do you know specifically which answers to questions were deemed inconclusive? 553 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,319 Speaker 2: Oh? Boy, would I like that to have this. Yeah, 554 00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:14,680 the answer is no, they didn't give me this information. 555 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,279 We did have a terrific conversation. I'm not sure the 556 00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:23,759 FBI was thrilled that I tracked down their retired polygraphic examiner, 557 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:26,759 but I did speak with this gentleman. I'd love to 558 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:32,519 speak with him again. Supposedly, polygraphic examiners are are very 559 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,079 organized from what I understand, and our case agent actually 560 00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:39,559 trained to be a polygraph examiner herself. 561 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 3: In former case agent. 562 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, excuse me for former case agent. He actually said 563 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,119 something about going back and looking at his records, and man, 564 00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:53,160 I'd love to sit down with him. I mean, I'd 565 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,240 be happy to travel to his home and if he 566 00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:00,519 was ever willing and sit down, Boy, would I like 567 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:03,640 to know what the questions were and what the answers were. 568 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,559 If I'm understanding what he said correctly, it was a 569 00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:09,159 couple of years ago. Now it sounded like he would 570 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,079 still have complete records, which would be absolutely fascinating. I 571 00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:16,840 think too, it would be the opportunity to sit down 572 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,039 with them, so I would welcome that, but I don't 573 00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:19,960 know those answers. 574 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 3: This is with regard to what happened on the day 575 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,079 of the FBI meeting. Did Wavy Ten or any other 576 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,840 members of the media know that family members would be 577 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,639 notified in a closed door FBI meeting at the same 578 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,599 time as their release of infoc Surely they could have 579 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,119 waited until Bill and Bob were able to share the 580 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,360 news with loved ones unable to travel to Virginia in 581 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,599 short notice before they released the information on the air. 582 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,800 You know, I agree, I really wish that they had waited, 583 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,239 I would have wanted to hear it from you instead 584 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,599 of getting it from waving. 585 00:34:54,559 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 2: Well. I understand the impulse, the observation. The media is 586 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,480 a very very competitive business and there's a lot of 587 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:10,960 effort that goes into getting it first. My educated guest, 588 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,679 because remember I did media and public relations and corporate 589 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:20,360 communications for many years. Those press releases are usually sent 590 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,480 out in advance, and they are what they call embargoed 591 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,199 until a certain agreed upon time. And this is all 592 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,960 based on a general persons agreement between like in this case, 593 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,840 FBI Norfolk and the media outlets. And so those media outlets, 594 00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:41,719 I believe knew that there was going to be an 595 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,679 announcement regarding Kathy Thomas and Orbckadowski in the Colonial Parkway murders, 596 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,559 and they probably had that information sometime before nine o'clock. 597 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,159 I didn't realize until later that they were actually keeping 598 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,519 us downstairs waiting until exactly nine. So when we walked in, 599 00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:03,880 the meeting started right at nine o'clock, and that was 600 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:10,079 when the embargo was likely lifted. It's unfortunate because the 601 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:13,440 result was because the FBI didn't tell us in advance 602 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,719 what they were going to tell us, because remember it's 603 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,400 all about control. We didn't have an opportunity to say 604 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,800 anything publicly because we didn't know what the news was 605 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,519 going to be. I mean, we thought there was going 606 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:27,639 to be something important. They had asked us to fly 607 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,880 down there, and they even paid to fly us there 608 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,159 and put us up. The result was, and I'm not 609 00:36:33,199 --> 00:36:36,519 saying the FBI did this intentionally, but they'd sure as 610 00:36:36,519 --> 00:36:41,159 hell didn't think this through because we were tied up 611 00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:44,519 in a meeting for about two hours. The story hit 612 00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:49,199 the media, and so our families, who had sent us 613 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,239 there to meet with the FBI on their behalf to 614 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,519 find out what had happened to Kathy and Becky. Our 615 00:36:56,559 --> 00:36:59,719 families found out about this the same way everybody else did, 616 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:04,360 which is on the World Wide Web. There it is, 617 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,840 it was, It was on the internet, it was on TV. 618 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,400 And the next thing, you know, my partner, Pamela, her 619 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,239 phone starts ringing because people looked me up on social 620 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,039 media and saw that I have a long term partner. 621 00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:21,639 And the next thing, you know, her phone's ringing, and 622 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:24,159 it was reporters looking to get a hold of me. 623 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,119 And I was tied up with Bob in that meeting 624 00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:30,639 from I don't know. I guess we must have been 625 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:34,039 there from exactly nine o'clock to probably at least eleven, 626 00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,880 if not late when we got out of there. It 627 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,239 was a very unfortunate situation all the way around, and 628 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,079 I was shocked that this is how the FBI decided 629 00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:46,599 to handle this important piece of news. 630 00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 3: You were in the meeting with the FBI. I was 631 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,320 in the middle of my film class, and so I 632 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,320 had figured I would have until about eleven when you 633 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,079 got out of your meeting, and then you would call me, 634 00:37:58,199 --> 00:37:59,760 at which point I would be pretty much done with 635 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,400 my and then we could start hitting social media. But 636 00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:07,239 now nine oh eight, I start getting twice from people 637 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,760 did you see? Did you hear? Did you see? Did 638 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,119 you hear? And at that point, not only am I 639 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,159 breaking the rule about we don't have our phones out 640 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,360 in the middle of the school day, right, but I'm 641 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,840 also realizing, oh shit, I need to make sure Joyce 642 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,400 doesn't hear about this on social media. I need to 643 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,159 make sure Jenny, who's Becky's sister in law, doesn't hear 644 00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:31,800 about this via social media. So I'm scrambling to start 645 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,119 texting people and saying, hey, I know you don't want 646 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:35,639 to hear it from me. I know you would rather 647 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,440 hear this from Bill, but I don't want you to 648 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,400 hear it on social media. And there it is, and 649 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,480 so I'm you know, I'm doing a mad scramble, and 650 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,639 it just it is definitely something that I would have 651 00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:50,599 wanted to hear it from you, not from Wavy. I 652 00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:53,840 know that they don't think these things through, neither the 653 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,119 media nor the FBI. It would have been a whole 654 00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:01,360 lot more helpful to everybody involved if they had allowed you, 655 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,400 guys time to why don't you call your families? 656 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,199 Speaker 2: Not where That was clearly not a priority. It was never, 657 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,920 never going to be a thing for the FBI. They 658 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,159 also took another step which I strongly objected to. I 659 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,239 asked them we were flown to Virginia on a Monday. 660 00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:23,119 The meeting was Tuesday morning at nine o'clock. We were 661 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:24,880 supposed to be there at eight thirty. As we were, 662 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,280 I asked for the earliest possible flight out on Monday 663 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,960 morning so I could get to Virginia to try to 664 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,920 prepare for what I thought was coming. YEA, and I 665 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,119 asked to be on a six thirty am flight out 666 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:43,639 of Hartford the closest airport to where I lived, and 667 00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:45,800 they ended up putting me on a flight that got 668 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,559 me in around three o'clock instead of getting me there 669 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,519 at eight o'clock in the morning. And then on the 670 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:56,679 way back, I asked for the latest flight out on 671 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,960 Tuesday so that I could do some media. 672 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:02,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and of course me and the other families. 673 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,559 Speaker 2: Right, And of course they put me on a three 674 00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:09,239 pm flight back to Hartford, Yeah, flying through Washington National. 675 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,320 So as a result, I was kind of out of 676 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,159 pocket on the way back. And after dealing with the 677 00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:21,000 FBI for all these years, this starts to feel deliberate. 678 00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:24,079 Speaker 3: And I'm sure that the timing the twenty four hour 679 00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:27,000 tight turnaround was deliberate. I'm sure that they did not 680 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:29,440 want you to have the ability to meet with the families, 681 00:40:29,639 --> 00:40:32,519 the other families, or with me, and I'm sure that 682 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:34,760 they were just eager to get you the hell out 683 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,159 of there so that there was no opportunity for you 684 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,119 to do media hits. I'm positive that that's what it was. 685 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,159 Speaker 2: And let's not forget that two years ago when they 686 00:40:44,199 --> 00:40:47,880 made the announcement via the Virginia State Police that the 687 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,679 Robin Edwards and David Nobling case and the Teresa Howell 688 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,079 rape murder had been linked to Wilmer, which is the 689 00:40:56,079 --> 00:41:01,960 first time we publicly hear Wilmer's name. The FBI went 690 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,039 out of its way to tie me up on a 691 00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:08,159 two hour conference call YEP timed to the minute for 692 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,840 one thirty pm that day, which is extremely unusual for 693 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,239 our case agent to do that. Look, there's no way 694 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,280 around this. That was all deliberate too. They wanted to 695 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,760 tie me up so that I couldn't respond to the 696 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:29,199 news two years ago about Wilmer. And then, interestingly, here 697 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,239 it is two years later, almost exactly two years later, 698 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,440 and now we have a significant update in Kathy and 699 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,519 Becky's case regarding the same suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 700 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,159 And here we are again. After a while, I'm not 701 00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:47,800 a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but after a 702 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,679 while you think to yourself, you guys are doing this deliberately, 703 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,159 and it's really obvious. 704 00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 3: The other thing that I want to make sure doesn't 705 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,880 get left out here is the fact that the Virginia's 706 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,039 police were good enough both times to make sure that 707 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:08,599 the Wilmer family had a heads up well ahead of time. 708 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:12,599 This is what is coming. Both with Robin, David and 709 00:42:12,679 --> 00:42:17,079 Terry's case announcement and then with Laurie Anne's, the FBI 710 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,280 did not give the Wilmers a heads up, and so 711 00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:24,039 they learned that their father had been linked to two 712 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:27,400 other serial murders at the same time as everybody else 713 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,000 did on social media or on the TV. 714 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,119 Speaker 2: And that's deliberate. I mean it is. It's like they 715 00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:39,280 don't really care what happens to the Wilmer family, and 716 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,440 they are doing their absolute best to make sure that 717 00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:46,840 I don't have an opportunity to speak publicly about this news. 718 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,199 After a while, it starts to feel quite deliberate. 719 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm sorry it is. It's cruel of them 720 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,960 to drop that on the Wilmers. It really is. As 721 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,239 hard as it is for the victims' families, it's hard 722 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,039 for them as well. I have nothing but sympathy for 723 00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:07,000 the Wilmers, because, as we have reiterated again and will 724 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:10,480 continue to do still, they had no idea of this 725 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,880 side of their father. They had no idea, and it 726 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,360 is not fair to take what would otherwise be a 727 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,159 very ordinary day and then decide to drop out of nowhere. 728 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,239 By the way, responsible for two more murders, really really, 729 00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:30,239 just like Heinus nasty ones too. All of them are terrible. 730 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,480 Becky and Kathy's were utterly savage. It's unbelievably cruel to 731 00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:37,920 be able to drop that on somebody with no warning. 732 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,280 We've got a lot more to talk about here, as 733 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,800 we always seem to, so we are going to carry 734 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,599 over some more questions into another episode. It's going to 735 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:53,880 be ask Us Anything, Part seven thousand, maybe the return 736 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,239 of ask Us Anything Anything, the third, the fourth, the fifth, 737 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,360 the sixth's it's gonna be like a franchise, Is it 738 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,800 never ever dies? Thank you everybody who has reached out 739 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,000 in support of us over the last couple of weeks. 740 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,800 We really do appreciate your interest, your love, your support, 741 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,119 your prayers, your praise, everything, and we ask you to 742 00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,440 just please keep supporting in the case and supporting the podcast. 743 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:19,800 We are not going anywhere. We still have a lot 744 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,119 of work to do, and in our next episode we'll 745 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:24,119 answer some more questions and we'll talk a little bit 746 00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:27,280 about what we are doing to try to make sure 747 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,400 that this case keeps moving forward. That is going to 748 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,920 do it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank 749 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,639 you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 750 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 751 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,840 Another Dog Productions. 752 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 753 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoits. 754 00:44:57,159 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 755 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:03,599 Speaker 1: Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 756 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 757 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 758 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,280 Murders on Facebook. 759 00:45:12,039 --> 00:45:15,079 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 760 00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:16,719 Bill Thomas five six. 761 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.