Speaker 1: Welcome back in Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
Speaker 1: And Lorenzo.
Speaker 2: In this episode, I want to go over an article
Speaker 2: that I found on the Forbes Leadership section about common
Speaker 2: leadership problems that that leaders face when it comes to
Speaker 2: their teams. And there are four different problems mentioned in
Speaker 2: this article, and I don't think we can we can
Speaker 2: cover all of them in a single episode, so I
Speaker 2: want to do it over over the next few episodes
Speaker 2: because I think that there it's important enough to really
Speaker 2: dig into each one and not just kind of gloss
Speaker 2: over anything or or or summarize the articles. I think
Speaker 2: we have a lot of personal experience to add to
Speaker 2: these things that can that can help the listeners. The
Speaker 2: article is written by Sam Atayami. He's the CEO of
Speaker 2: a leadership consultancy firm, and the article is just called
Speaker 2: four common leadership problems and their Solutions. We'll put a
Speaker 2: link to the article on the podcast description. But the
Speaker 2: first of the four problems that the article talks about
Speaker 2: is when your team isn't listening to each other. And
Speaker 2: you know, when I when I think about this, I
Speaker 2: think about the you know, my team isn't listening to
Speaker 2: each other. You know. The the article kind of puts
Speaker 2: it in the context of that, you know, hey, sometimes
Speaker 2: people forget things after they've been told. It's hard to
Speaker 2: remember a lot of stuff that you've been given or
Speaker 2: downloaded to or or you know, summarized by a leader
Speaker 2: by a team member to remember that over a long
Speaker 2: period of time. And that's probably true. But the main
Speaker 2: issue that I see when it comes to this is
Speaker 2: if my team isn't listening to each other because they've
Speaker 2: stopped put placing value on what someone else on the
Speaker 2: team has said. And that, to me is the is
Speaker 2: the deeper issue than just oh, I forgot something because
Speaker 2: it's been too long.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's it's a great call.
Speaker 3: And I think there's been a lot of dialogue around
Speaker 3: like the art of active listening shout out to Heather
Speaker 3: Younger and the importance of actual listening to understand versus
Speaker 3: listening to respond.
Speaker 1: But I think it's bigger than that.
Speaker 3: I think I think this is much much bigger than that.
Speaker 3: I think that you know and then talk to a
Speaker 3: little bit about in the article, how do you identify
Speaker 3: this behavior?
Speaker 1: And while it's like.
Speaker 3: There's moments when you can kind of watch or see
Speaker 3: you know, who's paying attention maybe in a in a
Speaker 3: meeting or in dialogue. I look for much bigger things,
Speaker 3: like I'm looking for who's taking notes and and like that.
Speaker 3: That's a really clear example of something that shows me
Speaker 3: kind of an engagement of leadership. And when you're talking
Speaker 3: about like your team versus like if you lead leaders
Speaker 3: if you're in a formal setting, that's where I think
Speaker 3: it's really important to set the ground rules and talk
Speaker 3: through what does it look like to not just be
Speaker 3: a great listener, but to make sure that we're getting
Speaker 3: the right information.
Speaker 1: To all of us.
Speaker 3: And I think that we all talk on the podcast,
Speaker 3: and you know, we share all the time how we
Speaker 3: tend to write our notes down. And I carry a
Speaker 3: journal with me and a notebook and a pendant pay
Speaker 3: and I really do my best to role model that
Speaker 3: and actually, you know, to give notebooks to people, give
Speaker 3: pens to people, have that available when it comes to
Speaker 3: meetings or things, because I think there's a different level
Speaker 3: of attention when it comes to writing things down versus
Speaker 3: typing them on technology. And again, sometimes it's all you
Speaker 3: have is technology, and I take a ton of notes
Speaker 3: on my phone or on my computer based upon the
Speaker 3: scenario that I'm in. But I think that if you're
Speaker 3: truly trying to go into the aspect of listening to
Speaker 3: each other, I think that element of, you know, trying
Speaker 3: to get away from technology that can create a lot
Speaker 3: of distractions, and like, look, I'm not going to throw
Speaker 3: stones from a glass house. Right when you have a
Speaker 3: phone and you might be taking notes on a phone
Speaker 3: or a computer, there's also email that pops up, There's
Speaker 3: a notification that pops up, there's a text message that
Speaker 3: pops up. There's plenty of things that happen when we're
Speaker 3: on our technology that take us away or take us
Speaker 3: out of the moment when it comes to being able
Speaker 3: to actually listen to people that are talking to us
Speaker 3: versus the pen and paper route. But I think that's
Speaker 3: a really big part of how I'm looking to understand
Speaker 3: Number one, like do these meetings have value? Like do
Speaker 3: people take them serious? Do they feel like they're getting
Speaker 3: something out of it? And number two, are they listening
Speaker 3: to one another? And then are we sharing in such
Speaker 3: a way that it's adding value and that we're able
Speaker 3: to get something from the dialogue that we're having.
Speaker 1: And I think for me.
Speaker 3: That's that's the foundation of them really stepping into like
Speaker 3: how do we listen to each other on different levels?
Speaker 3: How do we listen to each other when not informal settings?
Speaker 3: But I think you have to really start it with
Speaker 3: the formal settings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 2: The first time that I ever was given a notepad
Speaker 2: to in order to take notes on when it comes
Speaker 2: to these types of you know, meetings or or one
Speaker 2: off conversations, it was by a leader who had used
Speaker 2: one for a lot of their lives and they gave
Speaker 2: the a little note bad to me and it was nice,
Speaker 2: like it was a just fit in the back pocket
Speaker 2: of my pants. And that was the goal of it
Speaker 2: was if you had to carry it around, then you
Speaker 2: could put it down somewhere and.
Speaker 1: Not have it with you.
Speaker 2: But if it was small enough to put in your
Speaker 2: back pocket, then it would be always available to you,
Speaker 2: you know, to be able to use. And again this
Speaker 2: isn't for formality. It's truly just so that you don't
Speaker 2: have to task yourself with remembering every single thing that
Speaker 2: was said to you by a team member or a
Speaker 2: coworker or or somebody you were meeting with, you know,
Speaker 2: because you might you might meet with, you know, one
Speaker 2: to seventy people in a day, you know, like any
Speaker 2: number of that. And and if you are a leader
Speaker 2: and you have a large team, it's very difficult to
Speaker 2: remember everything that said to you by the people reporting
Speaker 2: to you. But each of those people only had one
Speaker 2: meeting with their leader that day, and that was you.
Speaker 2: And and I promise you they remember everything you said
Speaker 2: to them, even if you don't remember everything they said
Speaker 2: to you, because it blended in with a dozen other
Speaker 2: meetings that you had with with their peers. And so
Speaker 2: having that notepad available to you is it's really valuable.
Speaker 2: And the first time it was given to me, I
Speaker 2: thought this is ridiculous, and I didn't use it. I
Speaker 2: carried it around with me because the person who gave
Speaker 2: it to me would would have, like, you know, give
Speaker 2: me a little side eye if they did had not
Speaker 2: seen it.
Speaker 1: So it was there.
Speaker 2: But what made me realize the value in it was
Speaker 2: actually being in a situation where I had to remember
Speaker 2: something that I had been told a few days earlier
Speaker 2: and not having the answer and having to say to myself,
Speaker 2: I can get the answer, give me a second, let
Speaker 2: me figure that out. And I had to go ask
Speaker 2: the person again, and it wasn't a big deal, but
Speaker 2: it was this kind of light bulb moment of uh,
Speaker 2: I could have totally just written that down and I
Speaker 2: would have had it right in the moment when I
Speaker 2: was asked. And again like you know, you know, Lorenzo
Speaker 2: just said, you know, talked about technology versus the you know,
Speaker 2: the writing it down, And I agree, if I write
Speaker 2: something down, I'm more inclined to remember it than if
Speaker 2: I type it. But the purpose of writing it down
Speaker 2: isn't just about remembering it. It's about being in the
Speaker 2: moment with the person. And it's also about that you
Speaker 2: don't want to look at these notes as as a formality.
Speaker 2: You want to look at them as just for you.
Speaker 2: And so if you're if you're in a setting with
Speaker 2: an employe where you're holding them accountable for something, right,
Speaker 2: if there's something where it's something has to be documented,
Speaker 2: where you're talking to an employee, you're thinking to yourself, Okay,
Speaker 2: I need to make sure my teas are crossed and
Speaker 2: my eyes are dotted. That's when you use the technology,
Speaker 2: but you use it in front of the employee and
Speaker 2: you and they can see what you're typing and they
Speaker 2: can see what you're any so there's there's transparency in
Speaker 2: that the notepad doesn't have to have the teas dotted
Speaker 2: and the i's crossed right, like this is just between
Speaker 2: you and yourself in order to make sure that the
Speaker 2: person you're talking to understands that you're trying to be
Speaker 2: in the moment, but you also want to make sure
Speaker 2: that you remember these things for later on, so that
Speaker 2: that's very important.
Speaker 1: But I want to go back to the.
Speaker 2: Idea of when your team has stopped putting clout into
Speaker 2: what they're each other is saying. And so I think
Speaker 2: about the the old adage, you know, failing to plan
Speaker 2: is planning to fail. They're they're the same thing. If
Speaker 2: if you apply this kind of note taking strategy to that,
Speaker 2: it works as well. Because if if a team doesn't
Speaker 2: seem to be listening to each other, but they're also
Speaker 2: not taking notes when they're talking to each other, or
Speaker 2: or taking any steps to kind of you know, listen
Speaker 2: actively and you know, hearing what the person is saying
Speaker 2: and writing it down and those kind of those kind
Speaker 2: of steps. If they're not doing those things, then it's
Speaker 2: possible they don't think that there's value in it, or
Speaker 2: it's possible that they don't actually care what that person
Speaker 2: has to say and they're just waiting for their turn
Speaker 2: to speak. And so as a leader, it's important that
Speaker 2: you're that you're positioning yourself in a way that lets
Speaker 2: you view these interactions and and see how they're going.
Speaker 2: Because you can listen to the responses, you can tell
Speaker 2: if a person responded from a standpoint of hey, I
Speaker 2: heard what you just said, let's talk about that, or
Speaker 2: if there was responding from a standpoint of okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: now let's hear what I have to say. And as
Speaker 2: a third party observer sometimes it's even easier to tell
Speaker 2: if that's what's being is that's what's happening. Then if
Speaker 2: you're a person actually in the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's a great call.
Speaker 3: And I think as you were talking through that example,
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how do you how do you
Speaker 3: create space or how do you as a leader, validate
Speaker 3: that active listening is happening. Besides like the formal settings
Speaker 3: and the dialogue, and I think that yeah, being able
Speaker 3: to observe and listen and like and I think more
Speaker 3: importantly kind of like recap the conversations with both parties
Speaker 3: or with the person who is supposed to be listening.
Speaker 3: I think most of the conversations that I'm listening to
Speaker 3: is like it's back and forth. And sometimes when it
Speaker 3: comes to like listening, when I when I think of
Speaker 3: like the the opposite of this, like this being something
Speaker 3: that is a problem for teams, like like people are
Speaker 3: not listening to each other, I'm like, where.
Speaker 1: Does that show up the most?
Speaker 3: And I think it's in places of like disagreements or
Speaker 3: debates where something needs to be solved for and people
Speaker 3: have different opinions, people have different perspectives or quite honestly,
Speaker 3: like maybe somebody shares like not a great idea and
Speaker 3: it gets challenged on it, and then some ego takes
Speaker 3: over and then it's kind of you play that game
Speaker 3: like that's not what I said, Well that's exactly what
Speaker 3: you said. Well that's not what I meant, Okay, Well
Speaker 3: then you know say what you mean, Like like those
Speaker 3: are the times when I think that when people say,
Speaker 3: like nobody's listening to me or my team doesn't listen, Well,
Speaker 3: I think it's in those moments where there is disagreement
Speaker 3: or debate and as a leader, those are the moments
Speaker 3: in those of the times when it is best to
Speaker 3: to to make sure that you're a part of some
Speaker 3: of the dialogue where you can or bring the people together.
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't do you any good if if somebody,
Speaker 3: if if there's a concern about somebody not listening, and
Speaker 3: then you listen to both people individuals. I think if
Speaker 3: you're going to solve that on a larger level, you
Speaker 3: have to bring the people together. You have to bring
Speaker 3: the team together, you have to talk through you have
Speaker 3: to ask them to kind of repeat what the other
Speaker 3: person just said. Like there's a lot of things that
Speaker 3: you can do here. But if if in fact it's
Speaker 3: not about listening, if your opportunity is that the team's
Speaker 3: not listening to one another, you're going to have to
Speaker 3: be much more attentive and involved in conversations that are
Speaker 3: happening where the listening aspect is the thing that's being
Speaker 3: shared as a concern.
Speaker 2: I think you're spot on with that.
Speaker 1: And I you know, when when.
Speaker 2: When a person says something, I know I can just
Speaker 2: speak personally. I've said things before. Where as I finish
Speaker 2: saying them, there's a part of me that thinks that
Speaker 2: didn't come out the way that I wanted it to
Speaker 2: come out, Like I know what I was thinking in
Speaker 2: my head, and I said it in the way that
Speaker 2: I thought it was the best way to say it.
Speaker 2: But I almost listen to myself saying it from the
Speaker 2: perspective somebody else hearing it, and the way that it
Speaker 2: sounds might give off a different impression or a different uh,
Speaker 2: you know, elicit a different response than what I was intending.
Speaker 2: And you know, so when a when a person is
Speaker 2: is in a situation where a coworker or a peer
Speaker 2: or a leader and they're having a conversation and and
Speaker 2: that kind of stress level goes up or the tension
Speaker 2: goes up because someone is you know, responding in a
Speaker 2: way that says you know that you know, say to
Speaker 2: say what you mean, not something else that's not what
Speaker 2: I said. If if it's if it's at that level,
Speaker 2: it means that the relationship is already in a place
Speaker 2: where the people are not assuming positive intent from each other.
Speaker 2: They're they're not trying to understand what the other person said.
Speaker 2: They're trying to pigeonhole that person into the exact words
Speaker 2: that they used to hold them accountable to those words.
Speaker 2: In order to make it in order to invalidate their
Speaker 2: opinion to begin with, as opposed to thinking about it
Speaker 2: from the perspective of, Okay, what did the person mean
Speaker 2: when they were saying this? Can I look at it
Speaker 2: through you know, kind of their their eyes as opposed
Speaker 2: to my own? Am I am I trying to wordsmith
Speaker 2: it in a way to make me right? Or Am
Speaker 2: I trying to truly listen with empathy and hear what
Speaker 2: they're trying to say and put myself in their shoes
Speaker 2: and and meet them where they are as opposed to
Speaker 2: just finding a way to win the conversation. And again,
Speaker 2: you know, intent is everything. If if both people are
Speaker 2: approaching it from the standpoint of I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: win the conversation, I'm trying to understand what my coworker
Speaker 2: has said so that we can meet each other where
Speaker 2: we are, then that problem will solve itself one hundred
Speaker 2: percent of the time. If both people are in that
Speaker 2: spot right there, there's nothing to solve because it will
Speaker 2: work itself out in that conversation. It's when it doesn't
Speaker 2: work itself out, it's usually from the standpoint of, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm trying to kind of you know, jockey the conversation.
Speaker 2: I want to make sure that it goes my way
Speaker 2: and whatever the other person says, I'm going to try
Speaker 2: to find a way to circumvent that or get around
Speaker 2: it so that my perspective is the one that that
Speaker 2: ends up winning. And if, again, if you're a leader
Speaker 2: of both of these people who are talking to each other,
Speaker 2: then it's your responsibility to make sure that not only
Speaker 2: that you don't don't go into solve that particular problem,
Speaker 2: but when you go in, it's to solve the issue
Speaker 2: of what caused the disconnect to begin with, which is
Speaker 2: the relationship issue, and getting to the root of that problem,
Speaker 2: because just jumping in and trying to solve the actual
Speaker 2: issue being talked about will just result in you being
Speaker 2: looked at as taking a side between one of the
Speaker 2: two of them, and that's not what you want to do.
Speaker 2: You don't want to because let's be honest. If I've
Speaker 2: been in this situation as a leader and I'm trying
Speaker 2: to figure out a problem that's happening between two employees,
Speaker 2: I promise you you like one of those two employees
Speaker 2: better than the other. You always one of them you
Speaker 2: will like better than the other. And there's no way
Speaker 2: that those people don't have a at least a hint
Speaker 2: of that, if not outright no that. And so it's
Speaker 2: be very difficult for you to solve that problem without
Speaker 2: it being very apparent to them that you just took sides.
Speaker 2: And so again, it's not about you giving them an answer,
Speaker 2: it's about you trying to almost play Devil's advocate for
Speaker 2: each other and and and kind of hyping up each
Speaker 2: of them from a standpoint of, Hey, what is this
Speaker 2: person trying to say? How can you kind of meet
Speaker 2: you other where each other is at and make sure
Speaker 2: that the that the the words that you're saying are
Speaker 2: not falling on deaf ears because you place value on
Speaker 2: them just simply by the fact that this person is
Speaker 2: a coworker and they have something valuable to add.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and well that brings us to this episodes of
Speaker 3: women Hack.
Speaker 1: But first a few words from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: All right, for this episode one, Heck, here's what I
Speaker 2: want you to do. If you're a leader of people
Speaker 2: and you have a multi person team, I want you
Speaker 2: to start by, you know, passing out a piece of
Speaker 2: paper that has the these two questions kind of typed
Speaker 2: out on it on a scale of one to ten,
Speaker 2: how well do I believe I listen to my coworkers?
Speaker 2: And this is this is the words on the paper.
Speaker 2: And then the second question is on a scale of
Speaker 2: one to ten, how well do I believe my co
Speaker 2: workers listen to me? And chances are that the results
Speaker 2: are going to show that a person believes that they
Speaker 2: listen to their co workers far better than they believe
Speaker 2: their co workers listen to them. And if you can
Speaker 2: show these questions should be answered anonymously, by the way,
Speaker 2: and when you show the results to your team, that
Speaker 2: everybody is saying that they believe they listen well, but
Speaker 2: that they believe that their team members and co workers
Speaker 2: don't listen well to them, then clearly the issue. There's
Speaker 2: an issue there, because listening is not about what you
Speaker 2: think you've done well. It's about what the person you're
Speaker 2: talking to you thinks you've done well. That's the ultimate
Speaker 2: judge of listening is the person you're talking to. You
Speaker 2: can't judge how well you listened to a person you've
Speaker 2: had a conversation with. And so if you start from
Speaker 2: a standpoint of just identifying the problem, it'd be a
Speaker 2: lot easier for your team to kind of get to
Speaker 2: a place where they can understand that there is a
Speaker 2: problem to solve, because if no one believes there's a problem,
Speaker 2: if everybody thinks that their co workers listen to them, well,
Speaker 2: then there shouldn't be any issues here. There shouldn't be
Speaker 2: any communication problems where one person is trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: insert their point of view above somebody else's. They should
Speaker 2: be listening to each other and coming to common solutions
Speaker 2: or shared solutions based.
Speaker 1: On the all the information.
Speaker 2: But that's not happening. There is a problem with listening
Speaker 2: and putting value on what the other person is said.
Speaker 2: So starting with exercise will help a lot of teams
Speaker 2: kind of get to a place where they can go, oh, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: there's an issue here, and then you can start addressing
Speaker 2: the issues with everybody collectively, not from a standpoint of
Speaker 2: this is one person's problem, but rather this is a
Speaker 2: team problem that if we solve together, we'll see a
Speaker 2: lot better outcomes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a great woman at hack, and
Speaker 3: I like the idea of kind of self identifying from
Speaker 3: a team standpoint. I think it's important for things like
Speaker 3: this because so much of like so much of when
Speaker 3: you say, like, are people listening is a subjective opinion
Speaker 3: on how we feel about how other people listen to us.
Speaker 1: So I love that you kind of call that out.
Speaker 3: Because I think that getting the team involved and saying, hey,
Speaker 3: we're identifying this as a problem or an issue, how
Speaker 3: do you feel about it? Oh, look at that, you
Speaker 3: know how you feel about it also aligns with what
Speaker 3: we're observing. Okay, So then when are these moments happening,
Speaker 3: What are we going to do about it?
Speaker 1: How do we get better at this?
Speaker 3: Even if it gets slightly better, the team typically feels
Speaker 3: like it's better because like we've talked about it and
Speaker 3: it's something that we're doing, and that.
Speaker 1: In itself I think is helpful.
Speaker 3: But then I also think that you have to, as
Speaker 3: the leaders, start to establish some things that will make
Speaker 3: us all better listeners. Like if you're going to implement, hey,
Speaker 3: technology down, we're going to do handwritten notes or whatever
Speaker 3: the case is. Like when we're in you know, conversations
Speaker 3: around you know, debates, healthy debates or dialogue on strategies,
Speaker 3: we're going to get in that practice of repeating what
Speaker 3: the other person just said before you share your your
Speaker 3: thoughts like things like that that you can do to
Speaker 3: establish and start to build in some of this skill.
Speaker 1: I think it's really also very important. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: And the repeating back part, I want to just double
Speaker 2: up on that because I think it's so important repeating
Speaker 2: back what somebody else is saying from a standpoint of
Speaker 2: you know, if someone if someone says something to me
Speaker 2: and gives me some information, and I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that they don't think that I'm trying to wordsmith
Speaker 2: what they just said or or or change the meaning
Speaker 2: of what they said in order to benefit myself. Just
Speaker 2: starting from the standpoint of saying, Okay, I hear what
Speaker 2: you're saying.
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing is.
Speaker 2: This and and and say your honest opinion about what
Speaker 2: you're hearing, not this is what you said.
Speaker 1: You can say this is what I heard.
Speaker 2: And if I say this is what I heard, and
Speaker 2: I repeat back what they are saying, they'll know right
Speaker 2: away whether or not it was accurate, because they're the
Speaker 2: ones who have their opinion. They're the ones who said
Speaker 2: it to begin with. So if I say what I'm
Speaker 2: hearing is you said this and this and this and this,
Speaker 2: they're either going to say yes, that's EXAs exactly right,
Speaker 2: that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And if that's the.
Speaker 2: Case, then great, you're you're already aligned. Or they might say, no,
Speaker 2: that's not that's not what I'm what I'm saying, and
Speaker 2: what they're saying to you is that's not what I meant.
Speaker 1: So if you're repeating back literally their words.
Speaker 2: To them and they're saying that's not what I what
Speaker 2: I meant, then what they're saying is they're having a
Speaker 2: hard time putting their thoughts into the right words.
Speaker 1: And it could be because.
Speaker 2: They're so passionate about whatever the topic is that that's
Speaker 2: having it they're having an issue doing that. If that's
Speaker 2: the case, they might need some time to put their
Speaker 2: thoughts together. You might have to give them some time
Speaker 2: to come back to the conversation. And that's fine. You
Speaker 2: can say, Okay, if this is what I heard and
Speaker 2: that's not what you meant, I understand that. But I
Speaker 2: want to make sure that when we go through this
Speaker 2: together that I am hearing what you're saying and that
Speaker 2: we are on the same page. So if we need
Speaker 2: time to kind of put our thoughts together, maybe write
Speaker 2: them down on paper, bring them back. I want to
Speaker 2: make sure that I'm hearing what you're actually trying to
Speaker 2: say to me and not something that is that is inaccurate.
Speaker 2: So if you approach it from the standpoint of that
Speaker 2: the goal is to solve the problem, not the goal
Speaker 2: is to win again, then you can get through this,
Speaker 2: even if it means coming back to the conversation at
Speaker 2: a later time.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and with that it brings us at the end
Speaker 3: of this episode, this is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and
Speaker 3: I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.