WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.960 Welcome to Destiny. 2 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.320 Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. 3 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:24.519 I gotta say the energetic news lately has been dire. 4 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:28.280 In fact, there's been articles on Calai Yuga, the end 5 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:32.640 of the Yuga cycle, as being this month, the month 6 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:36.200 of August, and I don't think the authors, the writers 7 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:40.000 quite understand that it's not a single day like a calendar. 8 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:46.200 Remember in twenty twelve the calendar of the Maya ended 9 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:48.600 and people were like, the world's going to end. You know, 10 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.600 what are we going to do now? And I remember 11 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:55.119 my mentor Humban's men, the Mayan elder, said. 12 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:56.719 To me, this is just one end. 13 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:00.799 It's one calendar ending, and there's a new wants starting. 14 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.599 And as a daykeeper, he was very much in touch 15 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:12.200 with these cyclic calendars which started and stopped over thousands 16 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.519 and thousands of years. Hey, this is Cliff, your host 17 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.799 of Destiny, and today we're going to talk about energy 18 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:25.079 trauma and how to work with these energetics in the 19 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:29.280 coming age. If Kelly Yuga is ending, that means dwar 20 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:34.319 Pa Yuga is beginning. So we're gonna get some positives 21 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:37.959 of the energy in the next thousands of thousands of years. 22 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:44.120 Bleeding into our current existence. And what's really tough right 23 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:49.439 now is my son generation x Z and so forth. 24 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:55.239 These younger generations are really being challenged with the current 25 00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:02.000 society status quo. This is the disruption of of the economy, 26 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.200 the disruption of society. 27 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:07.439 When I was coming. 28 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:09.319 Up, it was easy to get a job, went out 29 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.360 of college. You know, I had many jobs and it 30 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.000 wasn't a big deal. Today it's hard to get a 31 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:19.439 job that you like. It's hard to keep a job 32 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.280 if it's chaotic. It's hard to work for some people. 33 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.240 It's hard to work in big groups. 34 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:27.199 I am one. 35 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:31.159 Who came up working for the corporate world and quickly 36 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.319 found out in about a decade that I was not tooned. 37 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:39.719 I was not really ideally situated to be able to 38 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.400 work with a whole bunch of people. And you know, 39 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.719 here in northern California, I've worked with the Apple computer, 40 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.039 I worked with Google. One of my last corporate jobs 41 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.919 was with PayPal, and I was just a number and 42 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.439 I didn't like it. And I mean, I've been to 43 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.879 school and I came up and I was a terrible 44 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:09.560 student in high school, terrible, I think. I when I graduated, 45 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.840 I had like a C C plus average or whatever. 46 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.039 And the only way I got into college wasn't wasn't 47 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:19.759 because of my grade point average. It was because I 48 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:24.479 had had a pretty good portfolio. And I transferred from 49 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.479 high school to a Long Beach state which had an 50 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:33.680 amazing animation department and illustration apartment, and I studied animation. 51 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.479 And it's the same school that Stephen Spielberg went to, 52 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:41.439 and their animation department was fabulous. Back then, they had 53 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:44.439 what they called it was one of the only colleges 54 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.759 that had the multi plane camera, which in those days 55 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:54.319 was you would have multi sheets of backgrounds and figures 56 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.000 and and you would shoot image. 57 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:58.280 You'd shoot it through. 58 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:02.560 These pieces of film. You'd have like five or six 59 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.960 or up to ten sheets of film that you shut 60 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:11.080 your image through, and then you slowly have your characters 61 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.120 crossing over through the image and so forth and so on. Anyhow, 62 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.680 that's before the that's before the digital I really aging myself. 63 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:23.959 That's before the digital technology got going. And it's a 64 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.839 whole different ball game. But in those days, you had 65 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:29.800 to be an artist. You had to be able to 66 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:36.439 render images, render figures. They wanted you to do quite 67 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:41.639 a bit in the classic style where you would copy 68 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:46.519 the masters Da Vinci and Michelangelo and Peter Paul Rubin's 69 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.920 people like that who are real master draftsmen. But college 70 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:57.639 is completely different now. And my son graduated with a 71 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:04.000 videographics degree, and he was working for a few years 72 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:07.079 and then the whole industry went belly up. This was 73 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:13.439 before COVID, and he he struggled and he's held jobs 74 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:19.720 everything from a carpenter to growing cannabis here in northern 75 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:25.160 California on a farm and developing his own gummies and things. 76 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:29.279 So and if you followed along, I was a big 77 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:32.600 advocate for cannabis. I still am, but I find the 78 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:36.160 older like I get, the less the less opportunities I 79 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:42.879 have for consumption of the thac the active psychoactive component 80 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:47.720 of cannabis. So I'm I'm I'm less active smoking or 81 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.759 or or and don't I'm not a real fan of gummies. 82 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:52.639 A lot of people like the gummies. 83 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.560 But I just I don't like. I don't like the sensation. 84 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:00.639 I feel like I'm in a fog when I'm when 85 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:05.319 I'm chewing a gummy. But my point is that things 86 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:09.519 have changed energetically, and the younger generations are having a 87 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.759 tough time of it. My son's dealing with some depression 88 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.879 and things like that, and this is all the finishing 89 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.680 of kali yuga. And we're able to identify this now. 90 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:24.000 And I'm really happy to have discovered the yoga system 91 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.680 because we're able to understand that we're just not having, 92 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:33.959 you know, emotional problems for nothing. This is a cyclic situation. 93 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.079 We're slowly coming out of thousands of years of cali 94 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.040 yuga and we're moving into the next phase, which is 95 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:46.720 much more light, much more positive, and much more energetic. 96 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:49.959 Now you can look at these phases of the yoga 97 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.600 and if Caliga calli yuga is the dark phase or 98 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.079 the most heavy, then you can see what it looks 99 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:03.839 like politically. Looking like politically, what are we looking at economically, 100 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.160 what are we looking at it echo wise, ecosystems, the 101 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.279 ecology of the planet, and. 102 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.160 What positive things that we have looking forward to. 103 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.199 And this is I think one of the problems with 104 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:20.120 our younger generations. They don't see and they don't feel 105 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.560 that there is anything positive to look forward to. And 106 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:28.199 this is the problem. And so my guest today who's 107 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:32.399 a psychologist, is going to really shed light on what 108 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.879 we can look forward to, but not only that, how 109 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:39.519 to process this dark period, how to go through, how 110 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.279 to work it in a manner that is more fulfilling, 111 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:50.759 less depressing, and sheds more light on what we can expect, 112 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.759 because as a cycle, it's going to be highlights, low lights, 113 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:58.839 dark lights, and it's tough. 114 00:07:59.439 --> 00:07:59.879 It's tough. 115 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:02.439 I remember growing up and i'd ha parers who an like, 116 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:06.959 what the hell? This is just the pits and you 117 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:09.680 kind of hate life. I think we've all gone through 118 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.439 that as young people. It's like, what the hell am 119 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:14.519 I learning? Why am I going to college? I am 120 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.800 not getting anything out of college. I asked that of 121 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.319 myself many times. And I didn't have a real stable 122 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.759 family life. My parents were not happy with each other, 123 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.560 and so there was a period just before I went 124 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.800 to college where my parents got divorced, and it was 125 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.120 it shook everything up. Of course, I felt the vibe 126 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.279 between my parents, and I knew that things were not good. 127 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:40.799 But when you have parents who divorce, that's a very 128 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:47.960 powerful energy, very depressing and sad and debilitating. And so 129 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.360 I went away to school. I left the Bay Area 130 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.960 and went to Los Angeles and went to college because 131 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.759 I didn't want to be around it. You know, I'm 132 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:56.799 just hyper sensitive, but I didn't want to be around it. 133 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.919 So we're going to learn a bit about processing with 134 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:09.639 this wonderful, wonderful psychologist. And his name is Miles Neil, 135 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:12.879 and the book we're talking about has just come out. 136 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:17.480 It's called Return with Elixir, Four Maps for the Soul's 137 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:23.480 Pilgrimage through Death and Rebirth. So that's our program today, 138 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.240 and I think it's going to be a little bit 139 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:30.279 longer than normal, but I think you're going to really 140 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:34.759 if you work with it, if you really follow the program, 141 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.480 I think there's something to be gained from this interview. 142 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:45.360 You know, every so often I do a tour that 143 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:47.919 I consider a vision quiz. This is where you start 144 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:51.080 and you finish and you have been transformed in some 145 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:56.600 respect from the interaction with pyramids, with shaman, with special people. 146 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.200 And we have one coming up this December call called 147 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:04.039 Sacred Temple Tour of Guatemala. It's gonna be December first 148 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.879 to the twelfth of the month. This is the chance 149 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:12.600 to meet with shaman and archaeologists and people who understand energy, 150 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.639 ancient energy, all in one area. You may have heard 151 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.519 one of the hosts of the program that's going to 152 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:23.600 be doctor Lydia Di Leong and her partner Arturo, and 153 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:29.120 we're going to be led through a series of programs initiations, 154 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:34.000 but the majority of this tour is interacting with buildings, 155 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:38.759 ancient temples, pyramids that we don't sit and look at, 156 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:46.600 we actually interact with through ceremony, through meditation, and through connecting. 157 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.399 To join this tour, go to Earth Ancients dot com 158 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:56.000 forward slash tours. Check it out and the itinerary is fantastic. 159 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:00.399 We'll be in Guatemala, which is the heart of one 160 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.279 of the largest Mayan cities in the world, and we 161 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:04.360 will go to many other. 162 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:05.000 Places as well. 163 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:07.440 For all the details again go to earth Agents dot 164 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.080 com forward slash Tours. If you have any questions whatsoever, 165 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.080 send me an email. Send it to Earth Ancients the 166 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.960 number four of the letter you at gmail dot com. 167 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:56.120 Come out, do this vision quest and heal, invigorate and transform. 168 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:01.120 My guest today is Miles Neil. He is a psychotherapists. 169 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:06.559 He's written a new book called Return with Elixor and 170 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:09.000 I've been passing through it and I got to tell you, 171 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:10.919 the guy's got his hand on a lot of really 172 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:14.559 important material. And what makes this book fun is he 173 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.360 kind of went through his own journey, came out on 174 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:21.159 the other end, and has a whole bunch of contemplative 175 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:25.559 material that I think is a good read. He is 176 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:31.440 a psychotherapist psychology instructor, and he's written two books, one 177 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.879 called Gradual Awakening and he goes, excuse me. He's co 178 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:41.279 editor of Advances in Contemplative Psychotherapy and would you believe 179 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:45.519 he's coming to us today from Bali, Indonesia, which is 180 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.919 an amazing place. So we're going to find out what 181 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.159 he has come up with, what he has passed, how 182 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.600 he has passed through the fire and come out, and 183 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.320 what we're going to get. So, Miles, welcome to Destiny. 184 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:00.600 Great to have you on the program. 185 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:02.320 Oh thanks so much, Cliff. 186 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:06.000 I'm delighted to have a conversation with you. Things podcast 187 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:10.360 like these, you know, high caliber podcasts and experienced interview doers. 188 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.559 What excites me most is you just never. 189 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:16.240 Know where what labyrinth, door and passageway we'll enter into. 190 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.120 So I'm very excited. I've been a big fan and 191 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.799 follower of your work and so I'm so so honored 192 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.960 to sit with you and have a chat and see 193 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:25.519 where our journey takes us. 194 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.960 Got to ask you, you're from Manhattan, what the heck 195 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.519 are you doing in BALI. 196 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:37.960 Well, it's partly listening to the soul, as I write 197 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:43.000 in my book, you know, and partly it's because you know, 198 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.120 I have two kids, and so I think, you know. 199 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.080 I was reading the tea leaves and things in the 200 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.679 United States are going through its own Saturn return, which 201 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.639 is an astrological. 202 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:57.320 Phase for a deep reckoning. 203 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.559 And with all the costs, right, and the sort of 204 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:06.720 paralysis and sort of polarization and just the politicization and 205 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:08.919 all the rest of it. I was really looking for 206 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.279 a new start, basically, and to give my kids an 207 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:17.519 international exposure which I had growing up. I was born 208 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:19.759 in Singapore and raised in Hong Kong. I lived in 209 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.879 Hong Kong for eighteen years, and I did a whole 210 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.039 long and lengthy chapter of my education and my career 211 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.399 in New York City, and by the time we hit 212 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.120 the pandemic, my radar was up for a new start. 213 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.519 So that's the short that's the short and very comfortable answer. 214 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.519 That's such an exotic place, but it's also very tranquil 215 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.000 and ancient in many ways too, And after reading a 216 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:46.480 lot of your book, I can get a sense that 217 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.519 you're this ancient soul that kind of had a need 218 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.519 to go back to home base in a way and 219 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.120 kind of absorb the energy of an ancient place like that. 220 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:02.919 That's very true. I mean, deep soul is something I'm 221 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:06.639 oriented towards. 222 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.919 You know, I've done a lot of traveling in my life, 223 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:16.360 and you know, a place speaks to us. It can 224 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.919 resonate at a kind of vibration that either aligns with 225 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.919 us or not. And so when I go to places 226 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.000 like Greece, for example, I mean I can feel my 227 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.879 DNA spinning at a different rate and I just know 228 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.200 there's something here. And Bali's one of those places too. 229 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.639 It's not without its own challenges, of course, It's not 230 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.399 like a paradise it's but it is offering something that 231 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:42.440 was missing and necessary for this sort of new chapter. 232 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:42.759 Of my life. 233 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:44.559 Interesting. 234 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.960 The book Return with elix Or feels like a cathartic 235 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:55.200 release to me from your soul. Talk about writing the 236 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.559 book and it feels like a journey to me. But 237 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.679 I'd like to hear from you exactly why you decided 238 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.200 to write the book, but also what happened in the 239 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.799 process of writing the book. 240 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.440 Yeah, Cliff, thanks so much for that. That's you know, 241 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:16.240 it strikes to the heart of the inner narrative of 242 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:18.320 Return with the Elixir. I mean, it's a book about 243 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.840 multiple maps. It's a book or a kind of mythopoetic 244 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.480 guide for people who are doing a reboat or reset 245 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.240 or rebirth in. 246 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:25.720 Their own life. 247 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.360 But it really grew out of my own sort of 248 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.279 breakdown and break through, if you will. It was it 249 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:38.080 was really I would start this way. In contrast to 250 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.840 my first book, Gradual Awakening, Return with the Elixir was 251 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.240 about a very deep listening. I mean, the first book 252 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:47.000 twenty five years I spent as a teacher of Tibetan Buddhism, 253 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.120 and I was really trying to do some integrative work 254 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.240 presenting a fourteenth century text on Tibetan Buddhism that was 255 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.120 the roadmap or cookbook to awakening. And so it was 256 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:03.039 really kind of an intellectual exercise. How could I take 257 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.000 old material and synthesize it in a new way start 258 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:09.599 to finish the Tibetan Buddhist path. Return with the Lickxir 259 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:16.559 was a turning inward and a really sort of a 260 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:20.319 deep listening to my own personal experience. And it was 261 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.079 a crossroad. It was a turning point for me because 262 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.279 in a way I had established myself in New York 263 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.759 City as a therapist. I had a niche working with 264 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.519 yogis and contemplative people and people interested in the meditation movement, 265 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.920 spiritual you know, people who wanted to work on psychology 266 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.440 and spirituality at the same time. And I was very 267 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.200 content to kids nice house in Westchester. You know, it 268 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.559 was kind of like it was kind of like the 269 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.720 pinnacle of a career. I couldn't have asked for anything more. 270 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.640 But something was a miss something was off, and I 271 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:56.559 couldn't put my finger on it. And I started having visions. 272 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.759 And you know, I don't say that lightly because I 273 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:01.759 don't don't want to come across as sort of a 274 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.240 prophet or whatever. I actually write in the book that 275 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.480 I think many of us have kind of visionary experience 276 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.720 or dream dreams, potent side of synchronicities, and we kind 277 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.680 of just dismissed them because we live in a very 278 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:18.440 sort of banal, kind of clinical, dry, disenchanted world, as 279 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.359 Rick Tarnis might put it. But for me, I started 280 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:25.400 really orienting to these intuitions and these visions, and in 281 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.480 a way I later learned through Jung that those intuitions 282 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:35.319 was really kind of the soul's compass, my soul's compass. 283 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.519 And then somewhere along the line, I had a really 284 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.559 nasty ordeal what Joseph Campbell might call the card six 285 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:53.400 o'clock moment, just the a terrifying, debasing, absolutely soul destroying moment. 286 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:54.160 Which I write in the book. 287 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.720 It had to do with a sort of betrayal and 288 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.519 a spiritual community with my personal teacher who i'd been 289 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.920 serving and have been an apprentice and a mentee of 290 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:06.160 for some twenty years, and it really did destroy me. 291 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.480 And in my efforts to try to reclaim my life 292 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.079 and piece it all together, I went on a long 293 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.000 adventure and I just documented it. And so Return of 294 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:20.799 the Lickxur is part map, multiple maps, actually, but it's 295 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:24.319 also just a way of chronicling and tracking my own 296 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:25.799 my own journey. 297 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.759 Into dissolution, you know. 298 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.880 And I really want to emphasize that that I have 299 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:36.960 this sort of recollection because people ask me, I've been 300 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.880 a teacher of Tibetan Buddhism, for a very long time. 301 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.400 I've been a psychologist for equally long. You know, how 302 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.240 did your practices help you when you were in an 303 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.359 absolute crisis? And I want to be honest about it. 304 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.880 The fact of the matter is nothing worked. Nothing worked 305 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.480 in the sense that nothing held me together, nothing kept 306 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.920 me above water. And there was something in all of 307 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.079 these traditions that I think is if it's if there's 308 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.480 one take home from the book, whether it be yoga 309 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:14.079 or Tibetan Buddhism, or astrology or jung or alchemy, the 310 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.759 esoteric or the mystical traditions, all are saying something very 311 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:19.559 similar that. 312 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:24.960 You you you can't raise or rise to the summit 313 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.599 without doing an underworld journey, without going to the depths, 314 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.559 and without being obliterated. 315 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.599 So to say, you know, when people ask me, what 316 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.079 how is your You have such a big toolkit, you 317 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.200 have so many things to draw on, I say, no, 318 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.240 none of them worked, because that's the nature of a real, 319 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:47.839 true crisis of the soul. You are. You are destined 320 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.759 to absolutely become obliterated. And not many people like to 321 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:53.920 go there, and they know definitely don't like to talk 322 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:54.400 about it. 323 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.400 I would like you to talk just a brief moment 324 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:03.400 about the panic attack that led you as kind of 325 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:08.039 a kickstart to move beyond your work and give up 326 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:08.720 your practice. 327 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:09.880 Number one. 328 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.920 But the thing that I'm also interested in, if you 329 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.559 are anointed in this Eastern philosophy where you're meditating, you're 330 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:23.759 doing perhaps yoga or some form of movement, why that 331 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.720 wasn't helpful enough for you to say, Okay, I can 332 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:34.400 stabilize myself here. What it seems to me was happening 333 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:40.559 was that you were transforming or you had had enough. 334 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.240 And you're right about this, and we're going to talk 335 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.079 about this in a minute. How younger people are not 336 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:51.519 able because they don't have the tools to transform and 337 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.720 move beyond the personal crisis a lot of people are 338 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.559 having right now. But I want to hear from you 339 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:57.200 real quickly. 340 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:01.000 Yeah, a great question, Cliff, Thank you. It's I think 341 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.400 it's a clash of. 342 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.839 Paradigm what you're asking, because if you look and it's 343 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.519 it's not just you, it's the way that you frame 344 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:13.839 the question has some underlying assumptions, not the least most 345 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:17.279 important of which is if you have a toolkit, you 346 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:20.720 should be able to stabilize yourself. And if and if 347 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:22.720 and if if you don't have a toolkit, then you're 348 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.079 you're a mess or you're vulnerable. So the underlying assumption 349 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.759 is that we should be able to overcome our you know, 350 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.160 handle it or or man up, or become so resilient 351 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.799 or you know, as Dave asp recalls it, become bulletproof. 352 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:41.680 It's part of our ethos, especially in an American culture, 353 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:44.799 that we we could become iron men and women. We 354 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.440 should be transcendent. So to go back a little bit, 355 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.359 you asked me about panic attacks, and I could be 356 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:54.200 very transparent about it. I was in an office building 357 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:58.240 in Manhattan where I was receiving my psychotherapy clients. I'm 358 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:00.680 on like the ten third, eleventh floor. I remember now 359 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:02.440 it's been so long and it's part of my past 360 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.480 life narrative. I can hardly remember anymore. But you know, 361 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.559 Manhattan is a congested place, and it spins at a 362 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.440 certain kind of vortex that makes you feel absolutely like 363 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.680 you're chasing your tail. And it's no longer a nine 364 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.720 to five, it's like a seven to eight ordeal every day, 365 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.240 and everything is confined, and everything is constricted, and the 366 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:24.680 world was spinning at such a pace that like come 367 00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:31.359 Monday morning, journeying from one box in a moving box 368 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:36.039 to my office box, and then most importantly, feeling that 369 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:39.279 the world view that I was in was a kind 370 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:44.279 of restrictive, confining box. And having neck up conversations with 371 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.079 people about the problem is sort of what Freud called 372 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.720 the working well. I started having panic attacks because I 373 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:57.319 felt very confined I was. I was feeling very limited 374 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:01.519 not only by my space, but also so by my profession. 375 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:05.839 The confines of my profession. Insurance companies pay for eight sessions. 376 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.960 You're supposed to do therapy just this way. You're supposed 377 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.640 to move people out of crisis so that they can 378 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:16.720 get back to work as quickly as possible. And all 379 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:21.559 of that just became too confining. And so in a way, 380 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.480 if I had gone to a psychiatrist and gotten some medication, 381 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.119 or if I was so called just doing my meditation 382 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.920 practice just right, what would have inevitably happened is I 383 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:38.119 would have just been anesthesizing myself and keeping myself bound 384 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.640 in a paradigm or of an invisible prison. And it's 385 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.160 I liken this to like if you sprain your ankle 386 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.680 and your body is giving you signals not to bear 387 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.400 any weight on it. But you bandage it and you 388 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:56.599 take some sort of painkillers, you're denying yourself important information 389 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.079 from a deeper part of your being that's trying to 390 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.200 orient you to something, a new horizon. And so for me, 391 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.960 the panic attacks weren't a symptom to be ameliorated. And 392 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.680 this goes back now to the bigger question that you pose. 393 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.440 Panic attacks for me were a soul's beckoning. It was 394 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.880 a call to adventure. It was some part of my 395 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.039 soul recognizing like I had reached the tail end of 396 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:24.240 this kind of edifice of the life that I had 397 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:27.799 constructed over twenty years. I had some success. I had 398 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:31.480 a nice I was doing publications. I had a nice, 399 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:35.960 cushy job. I had a stream steady stream of clients. 400 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:39.039 My kids lived in a nice house in Westchester. It 401 00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:41.519