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Play for 25 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:56.880 free right now? Are you feeling lucky? 26 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:57.000 No? 27 00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:57.880 We just necessary foid. 28 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:02.600 We can do my low eighteen plus terms conditions plus what'say, HOADI? 29 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.359 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 30 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 31 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:25.799 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 32 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:29.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 33 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 34 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.079 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 35 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:50.120 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 36 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.920 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 37 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.519 history and the authors that have written about them. For 38 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.879 twenty five years, John E. Douglas worked for the FB 39 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:04.079 where he headed the Elite Investigation Support Unit, the real 40 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.040 life model for FBI agent Jack Crawford in Silence of 41 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.759 the Lamb. He's had a brilliant and terrifying career getting 42 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.159 inside the minds of notorious murderers and serial killers, including 43 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.840 Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and David Berkowitz, Son of Sam. 44 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:23.159 Written with longtime collaborator Mark Lsheger, Law and Disorder is 45 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:26.719 Douglas's most provocative and personal book to date. In it, 46 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:31.400 he addresses every law enforcement professional's worst nightmare, those cases where, 47 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:35.159 for one reason or another, justice was delayed or even denied, 48 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.280 through a series of character driven case histories from the 49 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.199 earliest trials in Phalam, Massachusetts to the bungled trial of 50 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.960 Amanda Knox. Douglas shows what happens when the system breaks 51 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:50.319 down and bias, media coverage, and other influences get in 52 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.639 the way of a dispassionate pursuit of the evidence. Here 53 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.840 also are Douglas's personal reflections on his ongoing search for 54 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.560 the truth, from painful lessons learned early in his career 55 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.080 to his controversial findings in the West Memphis three and 56 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:09.759 John Vana Ramsey investigations. Brimming with procedural detail, Law and 57 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.759 Disorder is an eye opening insider's account of the exhilaration 58 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.199 and frustration that attend the quest for justice. The book 59 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:21.400 we're featuring this evening is Law and Disorder and with 60 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:28.000 my special guest, author and documentary and filmmaker Mark Olshaker. 61 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:30.800 Welcome to the program, and thank you for the agreeing 62 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:31.479 to this interview. 63 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:33.479 Mark, Thank you, Jan thanks for having me. 64 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.319 I hope that's the proper pronunciation of your name, Mark, Yes, 65 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:37.599 it is. 66 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:41.319 You did very well, the name like Spanski. I guess 67 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:43.639 you can appreciate a name like Oldshaker. 68 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.199 Well, uh, that you can pronounce my name is fantastic. 69 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.520 Then one it around here so it's amazing. I've heard everything, 70 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.879 so thank you very much for this is a big thrill. 71 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.639 Like I had said to you just previous that we've 72 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:02.360 got to speak a little bit. You know, mind Hunters 73 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:06.840 is huge. I first got introduced to your book, your 74 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:12.599 writing with John Douglas mind Hunters and then Journey into Darkness. 75 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.800 So and of course you know, you guys are just 76 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.120 legendary in terms of now that you see Criminal Minds 77 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.160 a big series on television and so much emphasis on 78 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.319 the stuff that you were involved with way back when. 79 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.040 Tell us a little bit because I had I was 80 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.839 just fascinated with your background. But you and if I'm 81 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:39.000 not correct to date, in nineteen ninety two, you you 82 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.879 eventually won an Emmy for this, a PBS series on Nova, 83 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.319 the Mind of a serial Killer and a serial Killer. 84 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:49.879 Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that, 85 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:52.800 because we want to get the background on how you 86 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:56.480 two guys teamed up. Basically, this is not similar to 87 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.040 some of the relationships where, uh, you know, they're a 88 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.800 law enforcement guy and there's a journalist and author. So 89 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.879 you guys are an actual team and you got together 90 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.199 in nineteen ninety four, Mindhunters Incorporated tell us about though 91 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.399 the Mind of a serial Killer in nineteen ninety that series. Please. 92 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:19.920 What happened then was I, like so many other people, 93 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.120 I had read Silence of the Lambs, the book by 94 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.920 Thomas Harris, and I was fascinated by it. And when 95 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.839 I heard that they were going to make a movie 96 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.800 of it, I went to my producers at Nova, the 97 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.199 PBS Science series and said, look, I read this book, 98 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.759 which I loved, and if the movie is anywhere near 99 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:41.480 as good, I had no idea it would be the 100 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:43.720 huge hit it was. I said, people are going to 101 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.279 be very interested in this subject, and why don't we 102 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.720 go in and get the real story. And at that 103 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:53.120 point the FBI was very cooperative. They were happy to 104 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.240 have the publicity. And I brought my production team into 105 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.480 the FBI Academy at Quantico and we started looking into it, 106 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.759 and I said, this is a fascinating subject, and the 107 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.319 most fascinating part of it was this guy, John Douglas, 108 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:09.879 who I had not known before, but who himself had 109 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.879 been a legend in criminal investigative analysis circles as the 110 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.800 behavioral profiling pioneer, and he was the one who the 111 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.279 character of Jack Crawford in Silence of the Lambs was 112 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:27.480 based on and he was the head of this group 113 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:31.120 of profilers called the Investigative Support Unit, and we made 114 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:33.519 a film Mind of a Serial Killer, as you talk about, 115 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:40.759 which shows how this unit brought a repeated serial rapist 116 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:45.160 and murderer to ground and got him prosecuted and convicted. 117 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.959 And the show did very well, as you say, it 118 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:52.439 had emi consideration, and interestingly enough, once it was on PBS, 119 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:56.879 the Investigative Support Unit overnight started getting even more requests 120 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.839 than it already had. And I just became fascinated by 121 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:06.959 this unit that where the people could look at a 122 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:12.160 crime scene or as John did, look at photographs, crime 123 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:16.519 scene investigative materials and say, okay, you're looking for a 124 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.680 twenty two to twenty seven year old white male loaner 125 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:25.639 who lives within a mile of the crime scene. He 126 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:28.639 went to high school, he graduated high school, but not college. 127 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:34.120 He is on psychotropic drugs of some some type. He 128 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:38.279 lives with his parents or some other family member. He 129 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.199 does not drive, he has no driver's license. He is nocturnal, 130 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.920 he is underemployed. Oh and by the way, you've already 131 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:51.040 interviewed him, and this describes This actually describes someone who 132 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.399 is now serving a life term for murder in the 133 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.079 New York correctional system. So I became fascinated by this. 134 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.240 I often say to people that as a previous novelist 135 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:07.560 of thrillers and as a documentary filmmaker, you're always looking 136 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.360 for great characters. And I found one right in front 137 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:14.279 of me, a living character who was fascinating. And then 138 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:16.480 a couple of years later, when John got ready to 139 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.000 retire from the Bureau, after as you say, twenty five 140 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:23.360 years of service, Dan, he called me and said would 141 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:27.000 I be interested in working with him on a memoir 142 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:30.439 of his experience? And I said, yes, I would. Let's 143 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:32.559 want and I I'll introduce you to my agent. We'll 144 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.200 go to New York and see if there's any interest. Well, 145 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.360 there was a tremendous amount of interest, and out of 146 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.480 that book came the book mind Hunter that you mentioned, 147 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.039 and it did well enough that we were asked to 148 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.600 do other books, and this book we've just published, Law 149 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.440 and Disorder, is our eighth book together now. And so 150 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.080 I don't know how you describe our relationship. We often 151 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.679 joke that John is a detective pretend to be a writer, 152 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.240 and I'm a writer pretending to be a detective, but 153 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.879 in fact we really do have sort of a Sherlock 154 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:13.639 Holmes and doctor Watson relationship, and we now investigate cases 155 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:15.000 together and write about them. 156 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:23.840 Yeah, that's fantastic. Now, this latest book that you've penned together, 157 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:29.080 is what is the intention or what is the focus 158 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:30.840 of this book Line Disorder? 159 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:36.399 Well, that's actually the critical question, Dan, and what all 160 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:41.000 of our other books have really been about showing showing 161 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.159 how to get the bad guy. And what we realized 162 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.320 here when John got out of the Bureau and he 163 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:51.480 started working for on other cases like the John Benet 164 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.360 Ramsey case, what we realized was that the skills that 165 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:59.159 he developed in the Bureau, what we call criminal investigative 166 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:03.679 analysis or or behavioral profiling, were not only applicable to 167 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.200 catching the bad guys, but they were just as applicable 168 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:11.840 to getting to the truth of cases that are already 169 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:17.360 been adjudicated and exonerating people who had been unfairly or 170 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:22.519 wrongfully convicted, or, if not convicted in the courts, convicted 171 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.840 in the arena of the public or the media, as 172 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.000 was the case of John ben Ay Ramsey's parents, who 173 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:36.320 were almost immediately convicted in that court of public opinion, 174 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.679 and as soon as John began working on the case, 175 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.919 he realized that they didn't do it. And so what 176 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:47.279 this book is really about is the unending and difficult 177 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.759 quest for real justice. And we go through a number 178 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.480 of cases, including the Ramsey case, including the West Memphis 179 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:59.039 three case, which has been quite celebrated and John was 180 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:03.600 involved with all, so the Amanda Knox case in Perusia, Italy, 181 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:08.320 in which it should have been obvious to investigators what 182 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:13.360 actually happened, but instead the wrong people were convicted. And 183 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.799 what we do is we go through these cases and 184 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:21.639 show what happens, what the horrible consequences can be when 185 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:27.279 preconceived notions or an already existing worldview or prejudice or 186 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:35.919 whatever else takes the place of rigorous investigation and evidence 187 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:40.639 based investigation and searching. And this can apply to police, 188 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:45.039 to prosecutors, to the media, to the public in general. 189 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:48.679 And what happens is when you get all of them together, 190 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:53.159 you have a perfect storm which leads to false convictions. 191 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:57.039 And one of the things that amazed me Dan when 192 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.679 I started researching this book with John, is how many 193 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.440 times cases hang on what we call false confessions in 194 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.360 other words, a confession that is not true, and there 195 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.039 are any number of reasons for them. But one of 196 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:16.480 the things we realized was that anybody who is reasonably 197 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.879 trained in investigative techniques, and you don't even have to 198 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.519 be a John Douglas, I consider consider myself one of those, 199 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.440 at this point I could get I could get a 200 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.200 confession from almost anybody on anything, anything, if you give 201 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.919 me enough time and resources, and I don't even have 202 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.559 to touch the person. I don't have to beat them 203 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.200 up or threaten them. I just need enough time with 204 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:40.120 them and I can get a confession. So getting a 205 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.720 false confession is not that difficult. Getting a true confession 206 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:46.360 is more problematic. 207 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.799 Yeah. Absolutely. Well, you know what I found interesting with 208 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.600 this book too, is that you really do basically spell 209 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.440 out that profiling really is just the you know we've 210 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:00.840 always talked about, well it's not the all and be all, 211 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.159 it's just absolute. But really profiling and the work that 212 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:09.159 John Douglas has done with this Investigative Special Unit is 213 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:14.279 that really it's just better evidence analysis. It's looking, like 214 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.600 he says, you can't just profile the crime scene. You 215 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:20.360 have to profile everything. You have to profile the environment, 216 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:25.600 the location, the situation. So again it's looking at the 217 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.159 crime scene, the crime itself, the perpetrator, the interview, just 218 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.200 looking at it a little more or a lot more progressively. 219 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:36.919 You're absolutely right, Dan, I think that's a tremendous point 220 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.440 to emphasize. And here would be a perfect example of 221 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.480 what you're talking about would be the John Benet Ramsey case. 222 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.840 Everybody in the public and the police was convinced that 223 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.240 these parents had killed this little girl because that's what 224 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.279 parents do and that's what they expected. But if you 225 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.039 study the medical examiner's report, in other words, nothing to 226 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.000 do with profiling, You study the medical examiner's report on 227 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.320 how this child died, and then you try to correlate 228 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.200 that with the behavior on the scene and what we know, 229 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:11.960 you will see, as we explain in this book, that 230 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.000 the parents couldn't have done it. So what this is 231 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:18.879 doing is this is taking good, solid, scientific evidence, evidence 232 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.080 based investigation, correlating it with what we know about profiling 233 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.120 and human behavior, and coming up with your conclusion in 234 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.320 a logical, methodical way based on that evidence. 235 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:34.840 Well. Yeah, but you also point out in the book 236 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:41.120 too that it's also understandable sometimes not necessary obviously not tolerable, 237 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.759 but that there's a certain amount of pressure created by say, 238 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:51.039 irresponsible media or absolutlure to have solved something recently. So 239 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:55.120 there ends up being this very human nature coming into 240 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.279 play where there's a lot of pressure. And so again 241 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.279 justice is not does not prove absolutely. 242 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.080 And you've and you've brought up another very good point, Dan, 243 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.440 which is that justice does not take place in a vacuum. 244 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:12.159 There always is a social public media context to do 245 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:17.159 everything is you've pointed out, and and you can't dismiss 246 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:18.559 that when you're evaluating the case. 247 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.559 What I found very very interesting and I was laughing, 248 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.320 and then I found it very humorous and of course fascinating. 249 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.600 And I didn't know that where I thought I knew 250 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.279 quite a bit about the Salem and then of course, 251 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.399 and then of course concern So tell us about the 252 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.759 beginning of the book and why you included and maybe 253 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:43.759 you can tell us about it, but also why you 254 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:49.080 included a story about Salem, Massachusett and tell us about 255 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:49.480 that place. 256 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:54.879 Another another good question. Everybody knows the name Salem Witch trials, 257 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.000 not many of us know that much about them. What 258 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.720 was interesting is what a metaphor it was for the 259 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:08.039 worst of criminal injustice. Today we start we start the book, 260 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.360 as you say, with the Salem witch Trials sixteen ninety 261 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:17.080 three in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and the first person 262 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.960 to be brought before the uh what they called at 263 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.279 that point, the Court of Oya and Termina, was the 264 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.600 woman named Bridget Bishop. 265 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.519 Hello, it is a Ryan And I was on a 266 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:29.519 flight the other day playing one of my favorite social 267 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.480 spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. 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She was considered 278 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.240 odd by the community, and she didn't go to church. 279 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:08.160 Three hundred years later, exactly nineteen ninety three, in West Memphis, Arkansas, 280 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:13.920 three eight year old boys are apparently brutally murdered in 281 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.680 a wooded ravine. The first person they bring to trial 282 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:22.880 as a defendant is an eighteen year old kid named 283 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:28.079 Damien Eccles. He is accused of having murdered these kids 284 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:34.559 in a satanic ritualized way. What's interesting about Damien And 285 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.079 remember what I just said about Bridgid Bishop. He always 286 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.440 wore black, he was considered odd by the community, and 287 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.599 he didn't go to church. And he was convicted and 288 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.519 sentenced to death. Now that's three hundred years separate these 289 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.279 two events, but not much else. 290 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.880 Yeah, it is fascinating and tell us a little bit 291 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.160 more about the original Salem trials and what if what 292 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:04.720 you're trying to convey it in its representation, Well, this is. 293 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.720 Why we decided to use these because what the theme 294 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:13.680 of this book really is is what happens when a 295 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:18.240 crime occurs that, rather than thinking about it as an 296 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:24.039 individual crime, it fits into the preconceived notions or worldview 297 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:28.839 of the community. Now, this community in Salem believed in witches. 298 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.400 They believed in witchcraft and the supernatural, and so when 299 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:38.079 a group of young and teenaged girls started acting in 300 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:43.079 a very peculiar manner and started doing things that were 301 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.000 not explainable in any kind of rational sense. It was 302 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:51.279 assumed that they had been possessed by witches, and so 303 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.920 the first thing you do is you look for the witches. 304 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:59.400 And they were all too eager to identify the witches, 305 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:04.160 and then they started. Then they started prosecuting them. Now 306 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.160 we think of medieval witches being burned at the steak 307 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.400 and all of that, well this was a little more 308 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.640 modern than that. Nobody was burned at the steak. Here, 309 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:17.519 these witches were hanged, but they were in fact executed. 310 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:23.160 And what happened was soon the community just started cannibalizing 311 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.039 and turning on itself, and you never knew who was 312 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.519 going to be accused next. And there are so many 313 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:35.079 interesting parallels to the present. For example, they thought they 314 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.480 had good scientific evidence, and the scientific evidence that they 315 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:45.240 had was if somebody saw a accused witch's shape or specter, 316 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.839 in other words, their supernatural embodiment lurking above them. That 317 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.279 was considered good scientific proof that that person was a witch, 318 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.799 and that was used to condict people. But then Cotton Mather, 319 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.839 who was one of the one of the most important 320 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.079 clerics of the day in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, said, 321 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.160 you know, I think you may have it wrong. This 322 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.880 is not good science. And the reason it wasn't good 323 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.880 science was because if this was all, if these witches 324 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.720 were all acting on behalf of the devil, the devil 325 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.000 could assume any shape he wanted. Everybody knew that, so 326 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.599 they could have been misinterpreting the evidence. It might not 327 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.680 have been these individuals themselves who were accused of being 328 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.839 a witch. It could have been the devil. And suddenly 329 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.559 everybody said, oh, you know, maybe the science isn't so 330 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.960 good after all. What was and what's fascinating is we 331 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:40.119 still have bad scientific evidence today. Now again, going back 332 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.440 to West Memphis three hundred years later, this was a 333 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.319 community and a law enforcement establishment that believed in Satanism. 334 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.759 They believed Satanic activity was happening all over the place. 335 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.720 So when three young boys were killed in what looked 336 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.559 like a rich at first a ritualistic fashion, they figured, 337 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:02.079 all right, who's likely to have committed that kind of thing? 338 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.359 And they rounded up three kids, one of them whom 339 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.079 was illiterate and had a functional like Q of about 340 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.799 sixty five, and they got him to confess to a 341 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.480 crime which clearly he hadn't done, and named to other 342 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:19.200 people who he hardly knew. Again a very interesting parallel, 343 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:24.000 But the parallel almost stops there, because by the next year, 344 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:28.799 by sixteen ninety four, the people around Massachusetts Bay, had 345 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.359 serious second thoughts about what they had done, particularly when 346 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.480 Cotton Mather's father Increased Mather, who was the president of 347 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.960 Harvard University and a very distinguished cleric. He had been 348 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.839 in England and when he got back he said, you know, 349 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:46.759 this does not seem like the right thing. And people 350 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:50.400 started rethinking it, and within a year anybody who was 351 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.359 left in prison had been let out. The families of 352 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.839 those killed had been paid reparations by the state legislature, 353 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:00.640 and they started immediately to try to live it down 354 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:05.279 in West Memphis, Arkansas. It took eighteen years for people 355 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.519 like John Douglas and other investigators to get these three 356 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:15.319 innocent young men not exonerated, just let out of prison, 357 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.160 which happened about two years ago. And by the time 358 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:24.559 Damian Eccles, the supposed ringleader, was let out, he went 359 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.759 from age eighteen when he was convicted. He was let 360 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.680 out of jail, of prison, off of death row when 361 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:32.720 he was thirty six years old. He had spent half 362 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.400 of his life on death row for a crime he 363 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.279 not only didn't commit, but was nowhere near. And this 364 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.079 is something dan the community, the police should have known. 365 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.279 It should have been obvious by the type of crime, 366 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.480 by the type of evidence, by the lack of evidence. 367 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.440 And yet it took somebody like John Douglas coming into 368 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.279 the community and saying you've totally misinterpreted this crime, and 369 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.480 then having the scientific experts to back him up with good, 370 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.359 hard science, which they never had before. And it's really 371 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.559 a shame. The same thing with the Amanda Knox case 372 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:11.640 in Italy. You have this twenty year old American girl 373 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:19.720 who is convicted of ritualistically satanically killing her flatmate in 374 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:24.839 this bizarre ceremony. Now I submit to you that, first 375 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.759 of all, the idea of satanic murder basically does not exist. 376 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:33.400 It's a myth of those who believe and some in 377 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.720 law enforcement. The FBI has no documented cases of a 378 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:42.920 taking place in any Western country. And yet the prosecutor 379 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:45.920 was sure that this is what had taken place, and 380 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:50.200 so all evidence then pointed to this young girl who 381 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.319 had never been in trouble in her life suddenly being 382 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:57.400 seized with the idea that she should kill her roommate 383 00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:59.400 in a ritualized sexual orgy. 384 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:01.680 Yeah. 385 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.119 And uh and the and the evidence just wasn't there. 386 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:06.799 Uh. 387 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.920 And what was particularly interesting in this case is the 388 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:13.079 evidence of who actually did it was there. They they 389 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.519 caught that, the police did catch that person. His DNA 390 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.920 was all over the place, Amanda's was nowhere, and yet 391 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:22.440 they stuck to their story and she spent five years 392 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.359 in prison before she was let out. 393 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.319 Well, it is I've done a few programs of wrongly 394 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:34.200 convicted persons in the US, and it seems over zealous 395 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:40.359 prosecuted prosecutors, even when they're faced with DNA evidence, are 396 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.039 reluctant to let Like you say, there was methmis they 397 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.319 could have been leading wasn't exonerated, but they reluctantly let 398 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.400 him out. I mean that's right. Not only was John 399 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:53.200 Douglas uh involved with that, And there was Hollywood stars 400 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:54.920 lined up for this. There was a lot of people 401 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:58.880