WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.160 Hello, and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. My guest 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.400 for this episode is the fantastic professor Jack Katz, talking 3 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.880 all about seductions of crime. Before we go to the interview, 4 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.240 just a couple of messages. So firstly, a message for 5 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.839 students listening. The Sociology Show podcast now offers online tutoring. 6 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:20.679 If you're interested in booking a single session or multiple sessions, 7 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:23.199 whether you want one hour, hour and a half, two hours, 8 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.320 whatever it may be, then you can book up a 9 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:29.760 tutoring session. Simply go to calendly dot com forward slash 10 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.679 Sociology Show tutoring. 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Then please do get in touch on my 21 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.519 email address, which is The Sociology Show podcast at gmail 22 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:13.799 dot com. So, without further ado, let's go over to 23 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:15.640 the interview with Professor chat Katz. 24 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:17.400 Hi. 25 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:21.560 You're listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely 26 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.920 anything to do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether 27 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.079 you're a teacher, a lecturer, a student, or just taking 28 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.920 a passing interest. This podcast will look at a range 29 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:38.439 of issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion, crime, education, 30 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:43.640 and anything else that sociology has to offer. My name 31 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:46.159 is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode, I will speak to 32 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:48.760 someone working in the field of sociology and let them 33 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.680 explain all about their own interests, their research, and their experiences. 34 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.640 So put your ear phones in, turn the volume up, 35 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:03.719 and let's be sociology geeks together. Ah, Hello, and welcome 36 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.280 to the Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start 37 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:08.120 by telling us a little bit about who you are 38 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:08.599 and what you do? 39 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:15.319 Please? Okay. So I'm Jack Cats and I've been doing 40 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:21.960 sociology for maybe forty years. I was initially trained as 41 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:29.599 a lawyer and then went into sociology writing school and 42 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.759 what I do. I work on a number of different topics. 43 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:40.120 First crime, which is why you're talking to today, Also emotions, 44 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:48.159 self in every day life. And I've been doing a 45 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:55.039 long term project neighborhoods in Hollywood right an area in 46 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.479 Los Angeles that's famous for the movies but also has 47 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:04.879 interesting people living there, and how to change sociology. So 48 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:09.159 I work on a lot of different topics and enthusiastic 49 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.759 as ever about sociology and what you can learn. I'm 50 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:19.520 stimulated every day by it. Yeah, So as we go along, 51 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.599 I think you'll get a sense. So my perspective is 52 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:26.400 similarly different things what other sociologists. 53 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:29.280 Great, Thank you Jack, Thank you. And the main reason 54 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:31.919 I want to talk to you today is about your 55 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:36.680 your book, Seductions of Crime. Sociology students always really interested 56 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.360 in it because most of the research that you look 57 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.919 at in understanding crime and criminology very much comes from 58 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:49.360 sort of socioeconomics, trying to understand inequalities, poverty, money. Students 59 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.120 learn about things like strain theory, status, frustration, and so on, 60 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.120 and yours really kind of leaps out as something a 61 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.520 little bit different and sort of approaching and trying to 62 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:02.560 understand why crime case from a very different angle. So 63 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:05.000 I wondered if you you wouldn't mind sort of expanding 64 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:06.599 on that in terms of how you take a slightly 65 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.159 different look at why crime the curs. 66 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.599 Yeah, it's a good question and helped me kind of 67 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:20.560 open up how what I do is different. Basically, I 68 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:24.959 look at the thing we're trying to understand. Okay, you 69 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:29.120 can there's different vocabularies for this, but you can talk 70 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.399 about the independent variable and the deepenetary. You can look 71 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.000 about the explanans thing that's going to do the explaining 72 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:41.600 and the explanandum the thing you're trying to explain. Almost everybody, 73 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:47.079 especially in criminology generally in sociology, is looking at the 74 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:50.680 explainer the cause, and the debates are all about is 75 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:56.279 it a lack of self discipline, It's something in the 76 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.360 way the child was raised that leads them to is 77 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.959 it something about poverty, It's something about race or ethnic 78 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.959 or minority status. Is it something about neighborhood? And each 79 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:18.639 of these causes have different sociologists associated, But you could 80 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:23.079 probably go down the list of the different theories that 81 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:27.680 your students are looking at and associate different sociologies their 82 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:34.399 careers are tied to different costs, different explanams, different independent variables, 83 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.319 most recently neighborhood, at least in the US, I don't 84 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:43.240 I'm Some work in England too and in other countries 85 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:49.240 emphasizes the neighborhood character. Life history studies that Barrington and 86 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:53.720 others have sustained in England that looked is there a 87 00:05:53.800 --> 00:06:01.360 difference between lifelong offenders and those who just offend an adolescence? 88 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.920 Is that related? That difference related to something in the 89 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:09.519 family and early childhood. So all the action, all the 90 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:15.720 status differences among academics is on the explanance side. Everybody 91 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.399 on the other side the thing you're trying to explain. 92 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:24.399 Everybody takes crime range pretty much. Some people do studies 93 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.600 where they have interview, they interview people who self report 94 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.800 whether they offend it or not. But most mostly people 95 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.759 are trying to explain. So that's not where the action is. 96 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:36.759 The action is not on the side of the thing 97 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.519 you're trying to explain. The intellectual action is all on 98 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:47.120 the cause. And so my difference is essentially I start 99 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:50.759 by looking at the thing we're trying to understand, and 100 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.720 to me, that's the way a natural scientist operates. It's 101 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.360 and I think often people read subductions and they think 102 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.279 I'm saying people do it for the thrill, that background 103 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:09.399 isn't important. That's not really organizing idea of the book. 104 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:14.040 The organizing perspective is to look, get as close as 105 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.600 you can, seem as much detail whatever it is you're 106 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:22.720 trying to understand. I've done that in my other studies, 107 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.199 like when I studied emotions, I did video tapes of 108 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.439 people laughing in a fun house, video tapes of little 109 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:37.040 kids crying, and to try to understand the dynamics of 110 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:44.519 those emotional events. To me, that's what that's a scientific impulse. 111 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.759 You try to get see as far out into the 112 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:52.920 universe as you can technologies are allowing us to do. 113 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.800 You look under the microscope, you look at DNA, you 114 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:59.079 look at the structure you're just trying to describe, and 115 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:04.800 then see process, and you build towards cause from first 116 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:10.319 looking at the thing you're trying to explain. So that's 117 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:13.040 I think that's why my work is very different. The 118 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:16.480 action in academics and in politics is all on the 119 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.839 cast side, and I think the action and the action 120 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:24.000 in the sense of what motivates, what organizes the careers 121 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:30.560 of academics, especially in criminology, is very politically tied. If 122 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:35.399 you look at all the causes that people cite for crime, 123 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:43.679 whether it's the lack of self discipline or neighborhood quality, poverty, 124 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:47.799 racial discrimination, they're all tied to different political programs, and 125 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:50.759 everybody takes that for granted. That's what you should be doing. 126 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.480 You should be emphasizing the cause side. My approaches to 127 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.279 start on the thing you're trying to explain, you don't 128 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:02.120 quite know what it is. If you knew, but if 129 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:04.159 you had an accurate sense of the thing you try 130 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.600 to explain, we would have to do the research. But 131 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.320 you have something important is going on out there. Well, 132 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.720 I mean, and then you look at process, you look 133 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.320 at life cycle, you look at the course of an advance, 134 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:20.519 and then you try to build towards an explanation, try 135 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:25.039 to find causes and ingencies of change behavior that way. 136 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.320 So that's what I would encourage your students. I would say, 137 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:33.840 maybe it's a personality thing, but I'm either paranoid or 138 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:41.600 suspicious about what government tells them. So most sociologists who 139 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:44.919 study crime are very happy. From dirkime on right, I mean, 140 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.480 They're very happy to take official statistics with it at 141 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:52.679 suicide or crime and say, okay, that that gives us 142 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.039 what we're trying to explain. Now let's look for the cause. Well, 143 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.960 I'm not comfortable with that. I don't I don't try 144 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:06.879 government and don't trust government doesn't produce information on crime 145 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:13.679 in order to serve social science. In some sense, criminology 146 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.720 is an effort by academics to kind of get the police, 147 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.080 the courts, the whole, the judges, the whole criminal justice 148 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:28.200 system to be their research agent, their research assistance, what 149 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.639 the criminal justice system is in, the businesses are doing. 150 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.679 So when they produce statistics on crime, they produced the 151 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.639 crime rates, it's for their own purposes. So when I 152 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.200 started to study crime, which I just started to study 153 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.559 in a way because I was starting to teach and 154 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.480 I had to teach something and I had a law background, 155 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:55.720 and I realized people studding crime never actually looked at 156 00:10:55.720 --> 00:11:00.159 what the people were doing very much. So I just 157 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.360 started to gather all the information I could what people 158 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.000 were actually doing in the moments of doing time, and 159 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.720 whether they're doing this before, what are they doing after? 160 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.200 And I tried to build I tried to find patterns. 161 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:15.000 Should we start with that then, because you mentioned about 162 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.200 perhaps a different methodology compared to what other people used, say, 163 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.080 but for your book Seductions of Crime, how did you 164 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.840 approach it? You mentioned ethnography, ethnographic research. 165 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.320 Yeah, I just collected everything. I put all the biographies, 166 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:36.080 auto biographies, all the close up descriptions by journalists. I 167 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:40.960 found a very nice data sets that were collected by 168 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:45.159 a couple of researchers in Chicago who didn't just take 169 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.440 the police statistics. They went into the police files. And 170 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.440 when you go into the which it's hard to do, right, 171 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:54.200 they spent a lot of time and I pickybacked off 172 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.480 of them. They spent a lot of time over years 173 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.240 getting good relations with the police departments, so they get 174 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.639 into the files. When you get into the files, you 175 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:07.519 get the witness statements, you get the reports made on 176 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.159 the scene when the tops first get there, you get 177 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:16.960 sometimes the fender statements. You get more raw material on 178 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:21.279 what actually happened. So that was really helpful. So I 179 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:23.799 put all that stuff together, and other studies have done 180 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:27.039 videos that and you know, one thing I'm working on 181 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:34.320 now with other people in Europe are videos of people 182 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:39.919 getting into the fights that are recorded on iPhones are smartphones. 183 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:45.480 Everybody's got a smartphone through students, maybe they've done this themselves. 184 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:49.080 They pulled out the phone. Something interesting is going on, 185 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.080 and that stuff is posted on the web and you 186 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.440 get the first time in human history you actually get 187 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.840 first hand immediate documentation of what's going on. And and 188 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.200 it's a it's a real challenge to work up this material, 189 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.440 but there it is for you. So that's the sort 190 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.279 of way of working at least to gather the data 191 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:14.759 that's I see this as the video material of the 192 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:19.200 kind of new frontier that the next generation will spend 193 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.320 a lot of time developing. They find. It's a wonderful 194 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.519 education if you really try to just describe what's happening, 195 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:32.679 you know, you get a very fine sensibility of interaction 196 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.399 and how people are adjusting their behavior based on what 197 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:39.120 they perceive other buildings, other kind of influence of it. 198 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:43.679 And it should be useful for understanding the contingencies of 199 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:48.480 starting violence, progressions and violence, and of ending violence, but 200 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:53.720 bystanders and so forth. But they're there. It's interesting to me, 201 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.600 and I think instructive that while these videos have become 202 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:00.759 available and there are a lot of them out of England, 203 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.039 a lot of them in English language US out of England. 204 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.919 And a lot of these events happen in public transportation, 205 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:15.080 on buses, on trained cars, free cars. A lot of 206 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:19.799 really ugly stuff happens. And there it is not quite 207 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:24.360 from the beginning, because somebody has to Usually the recording 208 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.279 starts after the event it's already turned towards violence. But 209 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:34.519 you get more of a complete documentation of what actually 210 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:38.000 happens in violence than we've ever seen before. And it's 211 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.600 striking that criminology is barely looking at this. I mean, 212 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.080 what would you want to look at it in criminologists? 213 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.240 But this is the stuff. It's kind of like you 214 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.840 can see cancer. You can see a progression, you can 215 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:56.440 see the cells fantastasizing it, and you don't want to 216 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.279 look at it. You want to look at some statistics. 217 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.639 It's crazy. 218 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.360 The Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind contributions of 219 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.960 sponsorship and donations. If you enjoy the show, then you 220 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.679 can help with the hosting costs by donating as little 221 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.879 as five pounds on the go fundme page. Simply visit 222 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.720 UK dot GoFundMe dot com and search for the Sociology Show. 223 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.279 If you can donate, then you will be sent a 224 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.960 Sociology Show pen as a small thank you for your 225 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:26.320 continued support of the show. 226 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:31.399 I was just thinking, like the example you gave, you know, 227 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.039 the people whipping out their smartphones to record a fight. 228 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.600 That sort of brings me on to the first question 229 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.679 that one of my students asked. Because the full title 230 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:40.840 of your book is going to read it Seductions of Crime, 231 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:46.960 Moral and centual attractions in doing evil. We are all fascinated, 232 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.600 we're all interested, you know, if something does go viral 233 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:51.720 and it's a fight on a bus or something like that. 234 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.200 So do you mind explain what you mean by the 235 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:55.840 central attraction of crime? 236 00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:03.159 To start with? Yeah, we think of it this way. 237 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:10.679 Whatever background factors may be important in the theology and 238 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:15.080 the kind of path forwards h and a violent attack 239 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:21.320 or affect, they're there. They're not active, they're not controlling 240 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.759 the person. And until a certain moment, in a certain situation, 241 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:29.639 what happens in that some change of behavior, some change 242 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:35.519 of perception happens that makes it attractive, compelling, productive to 243 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:42.600 act right now. And that's the transition that I'm focusing on, 244 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.639 and that is you know, all of a sudden, it 245 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.440 feels the moment feels right, Well, let's do okay, let's 246 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.039 let's steal that from the store. Let's you know, break 247 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:59.879 that window. Let's uh, I'm going to attack that guy. 248 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:04.359 It turns out that actually, when you look at like 249 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:09.720 these violence I haven't minded working on that recently, the 250 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:15.400 attacker usually is in a dominant position. Often, okay, they 251 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.960 can say they've been threatened, they've been challenged, but when 252 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.319 they attack, they're in a dominant position, so it feels right. 253 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.599 They have a sense of power advantage. Well, that's a seductor, 254 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.599 that's a seduction, it's a feeling. So that's why I 255 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.400 call it aesthetic. And it's moral in the sense of 256 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:42.599 either its specifically I'm gonna defend my honor get respect, 257 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.640 whether it's you know, I don't I don't know what 258 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.680 you do with bulgarity on these videos, but that's fine. 259 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.839 It's fine then. Yet, Yeah, I'm gonna fuck this guy over. 260 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.799 I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna break his balls, I'm 261 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:01.880 gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna ally with the power of 262 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:07.200 destruction and triumph and feel that from my body. Okay, 263 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:12.279 when you attack with violent you organize yourself, your whole 264 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.880 body into a weapon. Right. I mean, if you're a 265 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.279 good boxer, you want to stay loose, right, But in 266 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:24.000 order to generate power, you've got to discipline a whole 267 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.200 series of muscles in your body to be affected. And 268 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:32.319 so that's an aesthetic sensual attraction. Okay, I'm going to 269 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.440 I'm going to be a tough gun, which is just 270 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.400 a metaphor. It's like I'm going to toughen up my 271 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:44.640 body to be effective. And how I attack. You know, 272 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:52.119 each of the kinds of violence or staff or devians 273 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:57.200 that I'm identifying describing the book and their central and 274 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:03.000 moral attractions is different. But that's the critical shift that 275 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.559 all of a sudden it feels right. That's why, that's 276 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:14.119 why the background factors, however poor you were, however, discriminated against, however, 277 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.480 lows in your schooling, however lows you, your neighborhood, however, 278 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.480 cuon your father was, however victimized you were in one 279 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:28.599 way or another. You don't constantly effect, you don't constantly 280 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.480 steal or beat people up. Something happens in that moment, 281 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.039 and that shift is because all of a sudden it 282 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.160 seems like the right thing to do. Also positive. It's 283 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.319 interesting if you look at all the explanations of crime 284 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:46.519 that are out there that are popular, they're all negative things. 285 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:52.039 There's a kind of moral symmetry that seems to govern 286 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.359 the way people think about crime. Crime is banded oy, 287 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:02.519 so what can explain it must be something bad? Poverty's bad, 288 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:08.319 racial discrimination said, yeah, coming from a broken families fail, 289 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:13.279 a neighborhood that doesn't have good social services, that's bad. 290 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:19.359 So you could see that all basically, all the explanations 291 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.000 have caught out there are something bad because it's something bad. 292 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:30.319 And that's basically a kind of non rational, mythological way 293 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:35.960 of explaining that has an ancient history that's in all societies, 294 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:39.519 has always been part of the way people think in society. 295 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:44.359 If you know, the crops fail, it must be because 296 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:54.640 somebody violated the rules prohibitions that the gods insist on. 297 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:01.119 So we have to find that person do something to 298 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:06.880 make the gods. Something bad happens. People are getting sick, 299 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.480 another group is attacking us. We got to find something bad, 300 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:17.799 somebody to blame. That's an ancient kind of way of 301 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.519 looking at things. But in fact, what happens in the 302 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.920 actual doing of time, is that it seems positive. I'm 303 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.039 going to achieve something I'm attracted to. It's positive. That's 304 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:37.880 why seduction in the title has some some relevance. That's 305 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.440 why it's the right term, I think, because it's it's 306 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.359 a version of something positive. 307 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.839 You also use the word you know, you mentioned central seductive. 308 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.759 The word that often raises an eyebrower students is that 309 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.200 the word arousal, you know, or even the word sexual. 310 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.720 How do you how do you attach sort of arousal 311 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.119 to the idea of criminality. 312 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:03.400 You know, there's a lot you can do a lot 313 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:10.960 for the sexual metaphor and penetration, violation, going beyond a 314 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:19.839 protective boundary, taking the risk projecting yourself into somebody else's world, 315 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:25.319 all these things. And you know the fact that the 316 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.160 kinds of behaviors we're thinking about when we think about crime, 317 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:40.680 that violence, peak and adolescence isn't coincidental sexual and the 318 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:46.079 fact that males are doing these activities at five to 319 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:51.200 ten times a rat the females are, and the female participation, 320 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:57.559 even when it occurs, is often different process that's not 321 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:01.960 unrelated to sexual dynamics. H no I think I get 322 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.599 a little bit at that, a little bit because I 323 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.039 do have some discussions in the book where I try 324 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.039 to get the background factories, like the sexual difference. Often 325 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:17.799 there's this art pattern that when women murder and they're 326 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.000 asked about it, they can't recount what was going on 327 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:28.519 at the time. Males can. And it's it seems to 328 00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:33.880 be difficult for more difficult from femails to reconcile, organizing 329 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.920 their bodies and violence more difficult than it is for men. 330 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:40.880 You know, for men, you're just you're being a hard man. 331 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.200 You know, which is a stick up guy, which is 332 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:47.079 a ballot medical it's a very straight coward not subtle. 333 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:48.920 Uh. 334 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:55.640 For women that doesn't a lot of them, you do violence, 335 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.480 it's hard for them to reconcile. They are in the 336 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:05.279 violence with who they are and the rest of their lives. 337 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.359 Yeah, could I ask you about that, because I was 338 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.839 really interested because you know, if we look at evidence 339 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:18.279 of things like vandalism or graffiti, ars and setting something 340 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.440 on fire, they are predominantly may lax. So what what 341 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.400 essentially or arousal? What what what are men getting from 342 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:26.319 it that women don't? 343 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:35.319 You're being masculine, right, stamp being tough, you're being re sturbed, 344 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:40.880 You're you know, doing violence. You're organizing your body into 345 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:46.279 a into a hard wool. It's just like a you 346 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.799 know a lot of work set. I mean, think of 347 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:57.440 the cocky way when wal mm hmm. All these metaphors 348 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:04.960 are not accidentally close one to the other two violent activity. 349 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.200 Let me say just one of the something before, because 350 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.240 I if your students want to understand how to do 351 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:17.640 this work, I wrote a like four page, very short, 352 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.480 a little essay called on analytic induction, and it's I 353 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:28.880 think pretty accessible. It's in International Encyclopedia and Social Science. 354 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:32.720 They can find it on the web. It's open access. 355 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.720 But that'll kind of show you how you do this 356 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:43.880 work and how it's different than how social scientists soften. 357 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.559 And there are examples of studies and other fields, not 358 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:54.440 just crime. But if you want to pursue this and 359 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.720 start your own investigations, and even you know your students 360 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.000 who are in high school and what we call high school, 361 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:02.880 that's a good time to start, because I mean, I 362 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:07.440 think basically what I'm doing is continuing who I was 363 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:11.319 when I was an analystspected I had I think, this 364 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:16.359 is you find and I would encourage your students, you know, 365 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:23.079 finding a way of working there continues who you are. 366 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:25.920 That helps you. You know, you get a lot of 367 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:29.480 motivation out of that, Like your work reflects back on 368 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:34.519 concerns you have on an ongoing basis, and that gives 369 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:35.119 you motivation. 370 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:39.440 Thank you, Thank you for that. Can I throw a 371 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.640 few more turns at you that often come up that 372 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.839 the student asks for a little bit more clarification on 373 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.039 And you mentioned that the stick up guy doing the 374 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.519 stick up? Do you just want to explain what that means? 375 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.480 I mean, you know, in the US it's a phrase 376 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.599 for robbery. I don't know in the UK whether. 377 00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.880 It is occasionally use yeah the stick up, ye. 378 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:06.640 Yeah, pick them up, which I mean, you know, put 379 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:12.519 your hands on ah as you're illustrator. But it's also 380 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:17.960 a pilot metaphor so of being a hard man and 381 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:26.799 so forth. These are beard often admired personalities. Dominance is 382 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.559 a large part of the tracture. I have a chapter 383 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:34.240 Ways of a Badass that doesn't focus on a particular 384 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.960 a crime like event, but it's just a way of 385 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:43.519 being that sometimes ends up in violence or exploitations. But 386 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.200 that came out of really a memory. I had one 387 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.759 of my first jobs. I was like a busboy waiter 388 00:27:52.279 --> 00:28:00.680 at a hotel where we we would stay there. It 389 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.359 wasn't a community every day, it's that the resort kind 390 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:05.640 of place you go stay there. We lived in both 391 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:11.480 would have been stalls for horses that were converted and 392 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:16.279 the first night I got there, we would have roommates 393 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.240 and I my roommate guy they called Billinger out of 394 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.640 uh it was a boxer, but Dollinger was a famous 395 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:29.079 American criminal, escaped the law for a long time, was 396 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:34.640 finally shut down at the Biograph Theater. And this guy, 397 00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:39.440 he told me, somebody's gonna come up to you and 398 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:43.599 they're gonna ask you to borrow some money. And it's 399 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:46.640 not gonna be a lot of money, and you're gonna 400 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.880 think I got the money. You know. They'll ask me 401 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.480