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Speaker 1: Studies from Harvard and Duke Universities have shown that the

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efficaciousness of prayer is identical to not praying. From a

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number's standpoint, you're just as likely to have your prayer

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answered by, in fact, this rock than you are for Jesus,

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Allah or Vishnu. All of the data we have for

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God points towards there being no God, which perfectly explains

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this next statistic, which is that your child is three

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times more likely to be assaulted in a church than

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even the second most commonplace, which ironically twenty five percent

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of them are designated as religious institutions. This data is

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provided by actual insurance companies paid by the same churches,

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which means companies are literally betting money that your child

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will be harmed in a church versus anywhere else. The

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numbers literally contradict Jesus's own words when he says, are

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not two sparrows sold for a penny, yet not one

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of them will fall to the ground apart from your father,

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So do not be afraid you are of more value

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than many sparrows. His own words are a gamble. If

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you take that gamble, you will lose. Numbers do not lie,

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which is why insurance companies always post a prophet and

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the house always wins. But today you can test your

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luck playing Jackpok Jesus, or go all in for Allah

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and make the odds look silly. The show starts now

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and the lines are open. We'll be waiting for you

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to prove that your God does in fact show up.

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I bit the dust reading Jesus'.

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Speaker 2: Own words, it's a sign. It is what it is.

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It's a sign that he didn't want to be here.

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Is what it was. Is that he could have helped,

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He could have shown up, and he could have guided

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you through it, but in the end he just wasn't around.

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Speaker 1: It was like, listen, I know there are three million

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babies dying of starvation, but this motherfuck over here misquote

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and me, we're going to take care of that.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: Well, everyone, today is September the seventh, twenty twenty five,

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and I am joined by someone who needs absolutely no introduction,

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a baron of biology, a duke of DNA. Welcome, Forrest Falcai,

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getting worse everybody, Forrest.

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Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here, Forrest.

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Speaker 1: I am so glad to be on the screen with

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someone who can understand the biology because I'm not built

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for that. I'm built.

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Speaker 3: I feel the same way about the Bible, to be

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honest with you, Yeah, exactly, I'm built for reading stuff,

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committing it to my memory, and regurgie dating it at

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the right time.

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Speaker 2: You'd be surprised by just how much of biology is that. So, like,

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I think you'd be fine in my field. Honestly, I

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feel the same way because I you know, I've read

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the Bible and I've got my highlighted to death copy

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over here. But like, there are certain things where like

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it's it's you really do It helps so much to

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be able to quote the original Greek of this part,

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in the original Hebrew of this part, in the original

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Latin of that, and understanding the connections and the ways

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everything goes together. I watch you and Dan McClellan and

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everybody else, and I'm just I'm blown away by like

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how deep these cuts go where it's like, hey, not

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only is this just not what this person is claiming,

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because it's not only is this not whatever Christian on

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the line is saying, but also there's about thirty different

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reasons why it's just something you shouldn't be taken seriously

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in the first place. At all those things blow me away,

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and it strikes me the same way is when somebody

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calls me and says, you know, there's a secret hidden

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code in DNA and that proves Jesus. It's like, no,

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I'm sorry. It is equally as ridiculous as when you

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know somebody calls you and try to state the Bible

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at a context. So I'm stoked to death for this show.

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I'll be honest with you. We've already got some callers

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calling in. But hey, if you're out there and you

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think that we don't understand the Bible, or if you

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think that evolution isn't true, or if you think that

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the Earth is six thousand years old, or if you

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think that there's a reason to believe in some you know,

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filthy blood sacrifice in you know, Palestine two thousand years ago,

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that makes us now beholden to some monster in the sky.

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The number of the bottle of the screen there is

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five one two nine nine one nine two four to two.

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Or you can use the weblink give us a call

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because we want to hear it. That's what the show

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is all about. They're running for I don't even know

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how many seasons and we've yet to hear one good

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argument yet. So let's talk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we're on season twenty nine, and it's interesting.

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If you've heard seasons one, two, and three, you already

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know what's happening in season twenty nine. It's like there's

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almost no good new arguments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what bothers me is Like, I grew

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up watching AXB.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, by my old job. I was

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working at a science museum and I would spend days.

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I had to sit there and solder together little motors

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for kids to build robots with. And that was like

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I spent you know, days and days doing that at

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one point at this freaking job, and I would just

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sit there and just do this, and I'd have XP

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in my head and I would sit there for eight

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hours a day, just building motors, listening to AXB. And

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I after like a year or two of doing that,

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I was like, I know two things. Number One, I've

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heard this exact same argument on today's episode ten million times.

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I have never heard anyone do any better than this,

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and it sucked every time. And number two, I got

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to get on the show, because I was like, it's

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just it's crazy, and now here we are here in

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the same terrible arguments a decade later. It's rough, man,

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it's rough.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to get through it. Maybe, hey, maybe

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it's today. Maybe it's today today that the house loses

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and somebody brings in the argument that beats all the odds,

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and I mean, it's I'll see you in church in

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seven days.

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Speaker 2: Maybe That's what I'm saying, is all right, We've now

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learned this thing, and I guess I have some changes

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to make about my whole style. Still not worshiping the dude,

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but at least I'll be up here saying he's real.

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You've got that going on for you now, you know.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Let's run our intro and then we're going to

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get our first guest in. The Atheist Experience is a

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product of the atheist community of Austin. If I have

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a one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion

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of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of

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religion and government. One I'm particularly fond of. Do you

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have any callers into QUIT that you think you might

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want to take.

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Speaker 2: First, let's talk to I mean, I would say line

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three I disagree immediately with, but beyond that, it's up

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to you, my friend.

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Speaker 1: Sure, let's grab line three, then let's pull them in.

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Looks like it's going to be and I could be wrong,

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and it's not just maybe the best card game on

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the planet. But our new caller is Rook. How are

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you doing, Rook?

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Speaker 5: Hey, I'm doing great.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for taking my call for being here.

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Speaker 1: Un can you flesh out your your intro? I've got

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your intro. As God existing isn't necessarily a bad thing,

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except when used for anti science rhetoric. I think Forest

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might have a few things to say about this. Yeah,

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is there anything more that you want to add?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I just I misspoke a little on the phone.

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What I was trying to say is that people believing

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that God exist is it shouldn't in a perfect world,

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shouldn't be an issue, but they can. But in the

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imperfect world it can be used to push not just

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anti science rhetoric, but just hateful, uh negative things and

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to the detriment of humanity.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, like, what do you mean perfect world in

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this case? Because I I don't see a way in

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which believing in a God does not run an extreme

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risk of justifying hateful behavior, excusing a willful ignorance, of

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leading to you know, false beliefs, Like I don't see

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a way in which that happens, So explain what you

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mean my perfect world?

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Speaker 6: Basically, the the concept that I'm trying to get at

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is that if half the population believes that God exists

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but just like kept it to himself, like they could

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have whatever beliefs they want, but they could they could

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just think of their head, Oh whatever that person. I

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don't gu what that person's doing. They're probably going to

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go burn in hell. Anyways, I'll continue to my day.

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That's like the perfect world, or everyone just kind of

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mind's their own business and doesn't and doesn't push it

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on other people. But in our world, the natural, like

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human instinct is to make everyone believe and follow you.

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And when people with dangerous beliefs get in the power

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because enough people are following them, it can turn into

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just hate without it's not even connected to their it's

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barely connected to their belief in God. Just they hate

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this group of people and are using religion to justify

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it and justifying doing horrible things.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I see how that's the extreme. The issue

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that I'm having is that, like, even in the most

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benign sense, if you are holding a belief that you

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don't have real justification for especially like because everybody does.

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Everybody has little little things that they play with themselves

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or in their head about all the things that they

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believe that they may not interrogate quite as well as

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they could potentially, Like everybody makes mistakes, everybody has all

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these issues. But when you have something that's this extreme

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about the creator of the entire universe and the nature

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of like the entire reality that you live in, that's

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a much bigger thing to worry about, you know what

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I mean. So, like that's for me. I don't know.

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I I have a hard time with this idea that

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it's only a bad thing in the extreme case that

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somebody uses this to like force hateful behavior on people.

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I don't know about that.

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Speaker 6: Like what I'm trying to get at is if two

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people have the same beliefs, they can go they can

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go believe together and do what they want. Even if

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even if they believe on the earth is flat, and

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someone's saying, here, look at all this suvidence of the earth

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is flat. The people who would who just believe the

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earth is flat can go like listen to them and

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be happy and not and not push around other people.

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But the issue is is that it's pushed on everybody

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when you broadcast, So people who don't believe it get

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angry at those.

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Speaker 2: People, and people who do believe they get it. That's

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the case getting angry, that's the case about any belief

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about anything. Ever, if that's the way that we're using

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the term push on people, then like anytime anybody talks

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about anything, then that would be pushing something.

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Speaker 6: Not necessarily because you could just say, hey, I believe

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in God and then that and that's it. Like I

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believe in God and the other person can say I

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don't and that's the end of it. But that's not

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human nature. Human nature is to say I believe in God.

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Speaker 7: Why don't you believe God?

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Speaker 6: Well, I don't because all the evidence you're just being

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stupid believing in it. I think you're stupid. There's so

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much evidence for this, And so.

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Speaker 2: Is the issue that you're having is that some people

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are a little bit of an asshole? Like is that

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I still I fundamentally maybe I'm missing this. I don't

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understand how this works. Where you're saying that belief in

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God is a good thing as long as people are

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not necessarily a bad thing, as long as people aren't

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being jerks to each other about it, like I'm sorry, no,

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I think fundamentally the belief in God, even for the

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individual living in a vacuum, is going to be a

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hindrance on that person.

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Speaker 6: I totally agree that it would definitely be a hindrance

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on that person. What I'm trying to get at is

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that if everybody just kind of didn't yell at each

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other about it, that person could be hindered and be

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happy that they're be happy that they don't think they're

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being hindered but they are. And they can go sit

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in a corner and be hindered and not and not

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cared because they're happy and they get to believe what

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they believe.

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Speaker 2: And that's and that's what you're calling a perfect world.

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That's what you were calling a perfect world is a

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world where we don't care enough about each other to

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call out harmful believe though.

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Speaker 6: A perfect world is people would believe what's actually evidence

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for and what there actually is evidence for, and that

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they should be like kind or whatever, just the good beliefs.

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But people will inevitably have bad beliefs. So the only

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way to make that work is for them to just

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go believe what they believe instead of trying to force

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it on other people.

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Speaker 2: You just said the same thing in a circle. It

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would be best if people have true beliefs, but inevitably

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they won't, and so the best thing to happen is

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that they just believe whatever they believe and nobody stops them.

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And I disagree. I think the best world would be

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one where we can have these kinds of discussions and

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debates in a really productive, healthy way, where yes there

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are emotions involved, but not necessarily letting those emotions get

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in the way of your reason. And yes there's reason involved,

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but not necessarily letting super strict, crazy logic getting in

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the way of your humanity. And like, it's like, these

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are things that I think we're actually doing pretty well

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as a culture, is that we're able more and more

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to talk about these things, discuss these things, and yes,

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get angry about these things because these are emotionally charged topics.

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To have someone just want to go sit with their

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shitty beliefs is to not respect them enough to want

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to call them out and say, hey, this is a

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terrible thing you're believing here, and I love you enough

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to point out the fact that this is a hindrance

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to your life and your society, because at the end

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of the day, there's beliefs that they have are not

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stopping with them. Even if it was just hurting them,

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that would be bad enough, but it's not stopping with them.

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It it changes the way they treat other people. It

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changes the way they vote, It changes the way that

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they behave, It changes the way that they think about

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the world that they live in and how they're going

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to treat that world. Like, I'm sorry, I don't agree

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with you that a perfect world would be one in

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which people just shut up about whatever they believe.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I use perfect world in a weird sense.

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to curify a little bit more.

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Speaker 6: What I'm trying to say is that I'm sure you've

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had friends in your life where you've talked to them

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and religion just hasn't come up, and just somebody could

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just say I'm in their heads, say I believe that

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I believe that was created six thousand years ago, whatever,

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and then you can believe that it was creating billions

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years ago. But as long as but as long as

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like they don't fight about it, basically, and as long

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as it doesn't affect their life. When it starts affecting things,

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then it's time to have like healthy conversations and good

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debates to try to fix the problems in the world.

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But but on an individual basis in between people. If

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we could just like leave it alone, then everybody would

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be happy, and then the big issues we can work

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as a group to discuss.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I still more exactly where we have been

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this whole call, justin do you have anything else?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: I feel like we've made no progress here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't actually think it's possible to believe something

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and not have it tained your reality and the reality

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of those that are living among you. Because we have

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to vote, we have to serve in government, we have

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to be on school boards, we have to make decisions

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for the well being of our children. We have to

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make decisions for the well being sometimes of other children, right,

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and all of these decisions are going to be informed

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based on a host of beliefs. One of those beliefs

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is like your belief in God and I'll give you

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kind of an example. This is one of my favorite

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00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,399
collections of books. This in English is referred to as

311
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a bibliography of prohibit Books, but originally it was in Latin.

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It was a library from the Catholic Church of books

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that were entirely banned, sometimes as sections of books that

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were entirely banned because they were considered dangerous. These are

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dangerous ideas, right, And so when you have a large

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group of people that have a collective belief, then they

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can actually enact policies that are based on that belief.

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And sometimes the policy is harmless. Sometimes the policy is like, hey,

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we think it's bad for kids to fall into go

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into a library and be able to get different pieces

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of literature that are meant for adults. I think we

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all agree on that, Like, there are certain protections as

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a society that we want to afford for other members

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in society, right, But if the majority of your government

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is part of a religious group, it's certainly true that

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they're going to make their list of protections different than

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if I wasn't religious. And then you can go even

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further if you get like a government that is mixed

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religion and mixed government meaning they have religious authority, then

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they can do truly horrific things, like there's an edict

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that was issued in fifteen sixty three to basically just

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execute Anabaptists. These were Christians giving edicts to execute other

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Christians because they just didn't believe the religion the way

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that they wanted to. It says, if any minister of

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the Christian Church is found guilty of having rebaptized anyone, he,

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together with the person thus rebaptized, provided that the latter

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is proved to be of such an age as to

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understand the crime, shall be put to death. And so

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this is what happens. When you have beliefs, you act

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on them. It's not possible to believe in something and

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00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,240
not have it spill over into your life, into your family,

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into your government. That's why religion poisons everything.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I actually being on this calls, I didn't prepare

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it really well because I thought I would have to

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win the whole Thank you for taking it, but I do.

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Speaker 1: It's a fair point. I understand what you're saying though,

347
00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,200
Like you're saying, like you know, really we don't have

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to view religion as something as inherently bad. And I

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00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:10,639
can't say necessarily that I would view all of them

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as inherently bad, but what we've seen from history that

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00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:16,840
some of them should just should not be tolerated. They

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00:16:16,879 --> 00:16:18,840
need to go, they need to disappear and go back

353
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to the Bronze age.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you're yeah, I honestly you've I believe you. Like now,

355
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,519
I just thought of a point and it's good on

356
00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:28,720
a surface level, but digging any deeper like we did

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00:16:28,759 --> 00:16:31,080
on this call, it ends up not working out. Thank

358
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,720
you for taking my call though, I'm very happy, very happy.

359
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,919
Speaker 2: I appreciate you bringing up an ideas. It's fun to

360
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talk about. I appreciate you calling in and listening to

361
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,320
us and hearing us out. It's been great. Thanks Rip,

362
00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:44,519
all right, thank you. A couple of things. Number One,

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00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,519
to the person in chat talking about pronouns, call in there.

364
00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:50,320
There absolutely is a need for that, and it is

365
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,799
not obvious of whatever you're talking about, and I'd love

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to discuss it with you. Number two, much much more importantly,

367
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,639
at the beginning of everything you just said there, justin

368
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,639
you totally said the word taint and that was great.

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And also other person in the chat who talked about

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me being borderline anti Semitic. You should call into let's

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00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,640
talk about that. Would love to hear you defend that claim.

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Lines are open. Let's have some fun.

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Speaker 1: All right, We've got a theist in the queue. Before

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we grab our next caller, let me do our announcements.

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If you like what we do, please consider supporting us

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find the patreon at tiny dot CC, forward slash Patreon AXP,

379
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382
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and then post the live stream and so it's a

383
00:17:50,759 --> 00:17:53,960
good way for you guys to participate in the conversation

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And also, last, but certainly not least, we want to

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00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,480
send a big thank you to our crew who puts

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the show together every week. We've got video operators, audio operators,

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00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,039
note takers, call screeners, and chat moderators, all helping to

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make this stream possible.

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Speaker 2: Tina just on the phone slacking off. Shame on her, jeez?

397
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,400
Speaker 1: Or is she busy cooking someone right now? I don't know.

398
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Speaker 2: Right she is our call screener. She's talking to someone

399
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,759
on the line right now. But as far as I'm concerned,

400
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:50,240
she's just completely wasting time. It's just like her.

401
00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:54,759
Speaker 1: Oh Man, Tina, Tina, Tina. Well, I think Simone is next.

402
00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:58,599
We've got a theist named Simone from United Kingdom, all

403
00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:01,599
the way across the pond. Proof of God. We are

404
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,200
part of reality, so we exist. Our thoughts are part

405
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,279
of reality, reality, so they exist. We think God exists.

406
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,599
What if we think is part of reality, then God,

407
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,200
as part of that reality exists. Quite a Those are

408
00:19:16,319 --> 00:19:17,119
certainly words.

409
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Speaker 2: At least it was a syllogism.

410
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,039
Speaker 1: Those were words, credit words.

411
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 2: Duell Hello, can you hear me again?

412
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 4: Hello?

413
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:28,319
Speaker 7: Yeah?

414
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,039
Speaker 5: Okay, cool?

415
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,599
Speaker 7: Thank you for having your show.

416
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,079
Speaker 1: Welcome, you for calling in Simon, for for at least

417
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,880
my sake, can you lay out your argument in a

418
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,319
in a straightforward, coherent fashion for the slow ones like me?

419
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 7: And yeah, so these more like like you thought, you know,

420
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,759
just to kind of my thought process is not necessarily

421
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,160
to prove or disprove. It's more about trying to kind

422
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,839
of get to the point where I understand what is

423
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,279
who or not? And so I thought, you know, say,

424
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,200
if we are part of you know, our reality people,

425
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,920
so we know that we exist, our thoughts, so what

426
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,160
we think they need to be part of the same reality,

427
00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,079
so they should exist as well. And if we think so?

428
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,759
Speaker 1: Can we pause there? Because I feel like this this

429
00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:21,039
is going to be a really long broken syllogism. Are

430
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:24,720
you suggesting that thoughts exist in that like they have

431
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,680
like some sort of metaphysical ontology the same way like

432
00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:28,319
I exist?

433
00:20:29,599 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 7: Not necessarily mean if our thoughts are part of what

434
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,640
with you know, what we think and what we are,

435
00:20:35,839 --> 00:20:39,559
so because we exist, then our thoughts exist as well, right.

436
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 1: Well, our thoughts are produced. Sorry, I go ahead verse.

437
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,759
Speaker 2: No, I this is going to sound like I'm being

438
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:46,559
a jerk, and I am a little bit. I just

439
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,839
I need to know, like Simon, like, is are you

440
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,519
is this actually your reason for believing in a god?

441
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,599
Or is this just a fun thought experiment about Like

442
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,039
if I imagine a seven headed hippo dragon, then that

443
00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:02,160
technically exists because my thoughts technically exist, Like does there

444
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,640
or is this actually a reason that anyone should believe

445
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:05,039
in a god?

446
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 7: And I don't know?

447
00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 2: Actually, Okay, I can imagine a creature that eats gods

448
00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,839
that ate your God? Does your God no longer exist

449
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,759
because it's been eaten by my imaginary thought creature? Right?

450
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:21,000
Because that would be silly, right, because thoughts are just thoughts.

451
00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:23,920
And while thoughts do exist in the reality that we

452
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,079
live in because they're created by our brains, they are

453
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,720
not real things that have like real impact on the

454
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,839
world around us unless we produce that impact. They just

455
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,559
stay in our brain. So again I ask, like, do

456
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,000
you actually believe in a god because you can imagine

457
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:41,079
a god? Or do you have a different reason for

458
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,559
believing in a god that you would actually use to

459
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,440
justify belief in anything else?

460
00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:50,319
Speaker 7: Ever, Well, this so that my question is do I

461
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,200
really believe in a god? That I don't take the answer.

462
00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:55,599
Speaker 2: For that you don't know if you believe a thing.

463
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:56,799
Speaker 1: You don't know what you believe.

464
00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: I'm lost now, and kind of I mean it's real rough.

465
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we agree on one thing. Neither one

466
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,559
of us know what you believe, neither for us nor you.

467
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,279
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't get the point. Man, Like, let's

468
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,359
if there's if you don't know whether, Like it's okay

469
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,079
to say you're agnostic, that you don't know if there

470
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,880
is a god or not, But saying you don't know

471
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,920
what you even think about the matter, that's that's a

472
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,200
different claim entirely. So is that we're trying to say

473
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,359
that that you're agnostic to whether or not there is

474
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,599
a god? Or are you saying you do believe that

475
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,680
there is a god.

476
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,519
Speaker 7: And I would like to believe that there is a God,

477
00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:30,559
but I'm not convenient.

478
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: Okay, why do you want to believe that there is

479
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:32,720
a God?

480
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,559
Speaker 7: Well, if let's assume if there be a heaven or

481
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,839
a hell, I would rather go to heaven.

482
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,319
Speaker 2: So okay, what if there's a different heaven and a

483
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,480
different hell than the one that you believe in, and

484
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:45,640
you go to the different hell? What if you believe

485
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,720
in the Christian God and you go to the Muslim hell.

486
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,559
Speaker 1: What kind of a God would create a hell anyways,

487
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,480
such an arbitrary invention, Like I can certainly understand a

488
00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:59,160
God wanting to like segregate itself from somebody who is wicked.

489
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,359
I certainly have no idea why God would want to

490
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,759
light them on fire for all of eternity. That is

491
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:07,480
entirely nonsensical. So how does spirits burn in fire?

492
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,079
Speaker 7: The thing is between the two if there is, if

493
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,319
effectively the reason goal I would rather go to heaven

494
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,720
and hell? Whether did you think?

495
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: No?

496
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,039
Speaker 7: I don't know, and we nobody knows.

497
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:20,759
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that we would rather

498
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:22,880
not be let on fire for eternity. I'm not sure

499
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,279
there's much debate there. The question is whether or not

500
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:27,960
it's even rational to be concerned about that. Why would

501
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,559
anyone be concerned that there's some petulant sky daddy up

502
00:23:31,599 --> 00:23:34,400
there who's like so upset that you don't worship it,

503
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,400
that it's going to light you on fire for a

504
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:37,680
trillion trillion years?

505
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: Why?

506
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,319
Speaker 1: How is that a sensible thing to believe in?

507
00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 8: No?

508
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 7: I mean, I understand what you're saying, it's just from

509
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:49,119
Christian point of view, you know in the foundation of Christianity,

510
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,440
you know, do you you have that belief of heaven

511
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:52,880
or hell?

512
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,039
Speaker 2: So yeah, So just to be clear, do you do

513
00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,279
you like in the Bible like it talks about depends

514
00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:02,440
on which verse you read, but like there it's pretty

515
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,400
clear that like you don't have to just randomly believe.

516
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,480
You also have to do the believe things and like

517
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:10,880
be sincere about it and all those things. So if

518
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,000
you believe that part of the Bible and you believe

519
00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:15,640
in God, then it doesn't matter because you're not going

520
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,200
to pull one over on the smartest being in the universe.

521
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,039
You're not going to trick the most intelligent creature in

522
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:24,200
existence into letting you into his theme park. And in

523
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,759
a more rational sense, if we're really analyzing what kind

524
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:30,160
of person this God is, because the question isn't just

525
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,079
whether or not a god exists. If the God does exist,

526
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,200
what God are we talking about. We're talking about the

527
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,920
God of the Bible, the God of Islam, and the

528
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,839
God of whatever, these big monotheistic gods. This God isn't

529
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,559
worth anything, or isn't worth worshiping, isn't worth aligning yourself with,

530
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,200
isn't worth sacrificing your dignity and your humanity for so

531
00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:48,200
why would you want to go to heaven. You're just

532
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,039
doing this to avoid suffering, and that should tell you

533
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:52,960
everything you need to know about this God, that this

534
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:55,640
God would hurt you because you didn't think the right

535
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:57,680
thoughts for a brief moment of time.

536
00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:00,839
Speaker 7: Oka, I mean, make makes sense, define sense.

537
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you're just maybe a little bit

538
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:04,799
afraid of hell, and that happens. I think a lot

539
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,240
of us went through it. But the reality is like

540
00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:09,160
the more you think about the Hell, the less sense

541
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,680
it makes, and the less sense it makes, the less

542
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,200
reason to be afraid of it. Once you've thought about

543
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,960
it long enough, and it becomes utterly ridiculous in your mind,

544
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,200
Like being afraid of it, it just sounds equally as ridiculous.

545
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it's not only about

546
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,960
making sense of Hell or heaven. It's just making sense

547
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,680
of the whole Christian you know, philosophy and teachings, you know,

548
00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:33,359
because I don't know if you remember, just but I

549
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,079
think it was like on the twenty ninth that we

550
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,559
spoke at I was on your on your show, I.

551
00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: Reckall and you gave me, yeah, and you gave.

552
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 7: Me kind of food for thoughts, you know, and then

553
00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:48,319
I've kind of done a bit of thinking and then

554
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,240
I kind of came up with this, you know. You know,

555
00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:52,119
if you are part of the I think we think,

556
00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:54,799
you know, the code exists, then why is it not

557
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,480
part of the same reality. I'm just trying to understand.

558
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,200
And I think I'm kind of getting into that kind

559
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,119
of deconstruction path and I just I'm just curious, you know,

560
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,640
I just want to understand what I've been taught, you know,

561
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,079
since I was I was a kid up to now,

562
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,079
why I still why I have you know, questions and

563
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,079
why you know, I'm not so sure about you know, God,

564
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,799
and you know, apart from Christianity, you know, all the

565
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,920
other you know, religions, I don't. I don't understand so

566
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,039
many things there. They're not right, you know, in religion,

567
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,319
you know, And I just want to understand why I'm

568
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,119
so hung up on Christianity in a sense. But you know,

569
00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:38,960
I'm going through a process of you know, and probably

570
00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:42,319
understanding a bit more, but I still have questions.

571
00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:45,759
Speaker 1: Well I think it takes time, you know, as they say,

572
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,799
Rome wasn't built in today. It took me then near

573
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,559
ten years to deconstruct the point where I'm at. So

574
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,440
like you're gonna it's a slow process. You're you're gonna

575
00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:59,400
slowly work through all the individual items and eventually you'll

576
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,759
probably come up with something that you feel is like

577
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,519
something you can hold on to, something that you can say, Okay,

578
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:07,480
I've thought about it, and this is a thing that

579
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:10,599
makes the most sense, and then you can move forward. Right, So,

580
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,599
it sounds like you're near the beginning of your deconstruction.

581
00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:16,440
At the beginning of your deconstruction, you have way more

582
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,839
questions and answers, and that's okay. Just go ahead, and

583
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,000
you know, do the work on the questions you have

584
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,039
right now, and you know, when you work through them,

585
00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:27,240
we'll probably give you some more questions. Yeah, okay, all right,

586
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:29,680
all right, someone, thanks for calling here from me again.

587
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you very much. Yeah, take care.

588
00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:34,519
Speaker 1: Here's yeah, I talked to Simone not that long ago,

589
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,039
just recently. Actually, we do have a quite a few

590
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:41,440
people in the call. For anyone watching or calling in,

591
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,559
just know we do prioritize theis and agnostics. We've got

592
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,559
quite a few atheists, not that we wouldn't love to

593
00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:50,559
talk to everybody, but we do have a time limit

594
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:53,920
and this is kind of a debate call in show,

595
00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:57,519
so just that's where our priorities are. With that being said,

596
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,240
let me grab a couple of super chats and then

597
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,480
we're gonna get our next caller. We've got one Theist

598
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,160
in one Agnostic in the queue Forrest, do you have

599
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,160
a preference on which one we go to first?

600
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: I mean definitely the Agnostic, but like I'm down, I'm

601
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,559
down to talk to the Theis too. We'll get through

602
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:16,799
it together like a family.

603
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: We certainly will. We've got a super chat from our

604
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,680
friend Adam Brown. Great to see you, Adam. Adam says,

605
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,400
glad to see you back. Missed Forrest at con those

606
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,400
lines though. Yeah, I'm at the Compria but had a

607
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,200
great time and got to bring some COVID home with me.

608
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,200
Happy cooking rock hard for Doug. I see if we

609
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,039
didn't get to the super chat on the screen, but

610
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,839
it'll show up eventually. We can worry about those later.

611
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,599
We got a super thanks from our friend Larry Beck.

612
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,480
So much. Thank you. Back to you there we go.

613
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:55,359
Thank you, Larry. I appreciate the support and you want

614
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:57,039
to grab it. Next two Forest Forrest.

615
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me grab the documents there and I can

616
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,880
see where they are. No, I don't because I apparently

617
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:05,759
don't have access to them at this time. Might have

618
00:29:05,839 --> 00:29:09,079
the wrong one open. This is my job.

619
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: That's how I figured out I was getting fired too.

620
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,759
Don't worry. Yeah, yeah, what do you mean I can't

621
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:19,319
log in? We got a five dollars super chap from Woolight.

622
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,000
Mammoth says, justin, you're looking more jacked. Keep it up,

623
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:26,359
and may Doug give us strength to lift heavier and

624
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,160
heavier stones. It's only by the power of dog. Actually,

625
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,799
now that the summer is over and my schedule is normalized,

626
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,039
I'm actually back in the gym agin with my good buddy.

627
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,559
It is therapeutic. Of the many things you can do

628
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,480
in your life that's therapeutic, aside from sleeping and drinking

629
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,559
water and actually doing therapy, working out's good for you.

630
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,279
Speaker 2: And then we also have Susan Robertson who sent in

631
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:58,640
two Canadian dollars and seventy nine Canadian cents. I was

632
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,880
just say, AXP is doing Odd's work, all hail mighty

633
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,880
Odin turns out I did have the right document over it.

634
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,160
They just put those in a different tab now, and

635
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,000
I'm very dumb and didn't review that before the show,

636
00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:13,000
And so that's kind of what's going on over here

637
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,200
on this side. We're gonna my actual job can't stress

638
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:18,720
that enough.

639
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,359
Speaker 1: We're gonna grab our next caller. And looks like it's

640
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:29,279
Brisbane and Agnostic from Arizona and Brisbane coming in asking

641
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:34,359
wondering about Satanic atheism as a philosophy. Could you put

642
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:35,920
some meat on the bone there, Brisbane?

643
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:43,559
Speaker 4: It says, promote a philosophy of self indulgence and individualism

644
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,759
and a rejection of altruism and hiptogically outlined in the

645
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,119
Satanic Bible.

646
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: Is this not Chuck that I just talked to a

647
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,599
week ago that shouted over top of me that human

648
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,960
sacrifices egregious to God? Are you a Christian? Last week?

649
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:02,799
Speaker 6: Negative?

650
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 4: Out there? Well?

651
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,559
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, anyways, Brisbane.

652
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: I do want to throw are you are you familiar

653
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480
when you talk about Satanic atheism? It sounds that you're

654
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,759
talking about the Satanic Temple, not like actual devil warship,

655
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:23,039
which would then be a theistic thing. Right, You're talking

656
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:26,440
about the Satanic Temple. Who are atheists who have, like

657
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,400
I said, a belief in a code they then record

658
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,359
registered as a religion that they can then you influence

659
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,160
public policy like a religion can. Is that what we're

660
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:33,680
talking about.

661
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 4: I'm talking about the AI overviewed as visit promote the

662
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,599
philosophy of self indulgent.

663
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: So just we're just so we're clear there there actually

664
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,759
are real human beings, not robots trying their best with

665
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:52,480
what they pulled off of Reddit, that actually laid out

666
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,839
their beliefs. And what I've got here is the actual

667
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Satanic Temple website who have their seven fundamental tenets that

668
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,559
they've laid out, And you tell me which ones you

669
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:06,440
disagree with. Number one we have one should strive to

670
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:10,319
act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance

671
00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:13,400
with reason, Brisbane. Do you agree or disagree with that tenant?

672
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:13,839
Speaker 8: No?

673
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,359
Speaker 4: What about cock row to it? That's all creatures that

674
00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:17,960
just said?

675
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: He So you don't you don't agree that we should

676
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,920
strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures

677
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,680
according to reason? You don't think that that's right?

678
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 4: No, I'll kill a cock road real quick. Done. Next?

679
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's try another one. The struggle for justice

680
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,640
is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over

681
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:39,960
laws and institutions.

682
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,319
Speaker 4: Well, it depends on your definition of.

683
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: What That sounds like a lazy cop out to me,

684
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,519
but we'll keep going. One's body is inviolable, subject to

685
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:53,519
one's own will alone. Do you believe in bodily autonomy? Brisbane? Hey?

686
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,079
Speaker 4: Wait now, feel confused about Okay, all right, go ahead

687
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:58,799
say it again.

688
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: Sure, this one is about bodily autonomy. It reads one's

689
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,079
bodily one's body is inviolable subject to one's own will alone.

690
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:08,160
Do you agree with that one?

691
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 4: I would say someone of their full cognition, you know,

692
00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:15,400
i'd say John Stuart Mill on Liberty outlines it a

693
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,160
lot better than that. But that's a ripoff of that. Okay,

694
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:18,559
go ahead.

695
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,759
Speaker 2: So that was really not a yes or a no

696
00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:23,119
about whether you agree with bodily autonomy, but it's about

697
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:24,519
what I would expect from the call so far.

698
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 4: It's a ripoff of John Stuart Mill. It was written

699
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:29,880
like sixteen.

700
00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:34,279
Speaker 2: Okay, still still haven't said whether or not you agree

701
00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:34,559
with it?

702
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree with that.

703
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,799
Speaker 2: There you go. Also, the freedoms, this is Number four,

704
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,519
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom

705
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,039
to offend to willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms

706
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:49,079
of another is to forego one's own.

707
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,079
Speaker 4: Too willfully as and at say like if you take

708
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,119
criminal law, fighting words like certain words that start within

709
00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:02,000
and end with the or stuff like that. If you

710
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:07,559
provoke someone, then you know, there's sometimes justifiable kind of

711
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,079
things that happen there.

712
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about are repercussions. This is talking about

713
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,199
actually restricting freedom. There's a major difference there.

714
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,679
Speaker 4: If it's fighting word, if it's fighting word like that,

715
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,519
or you're disparaging any particular group in a prejudice way,

716
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,280
then yes, you are the problem, and they have laws

717
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,280
or stuff like that.

718
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're we're you know, have an discuption on

719
00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:37,480
freedom of speech there. Number five. Belief should conform to

720
00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:40,519
one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should never

721
00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:43,880
take one should take care to never distort scientific facts

722
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,239
to fit one's beliefs. Do you agree with that? One?

723
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 4: Confirmation by yeah, Hey, look I could cover all this

724
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,519
with one one here. Do whatever you will as long

725
00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:58,719
as you don't in friends on others freedoms and liberties

726
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,000
in the course of your action done covers ray, murder, molestation,

727
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,920
you name it that, I'm done with one. We don't

728
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,239
need all these seven and furtherm.

729
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:11,639
Speaker 2: That's that's covered, that's covered by number three, and it

730
00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:15,400
does nothing to address the fundamental thought principles that are

731
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,039
also covered, like example and the one that I just

732
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:21,280
read about scientific understanding and how you should inform your

733
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,000
beliefs to scientific understanding out the other way around. It's

734
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,920
wild that I'm explaining this and you are still just

735
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,599
yelling and at no point have we actually said anything

736
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:33,960
even close to the AI overview that you thought was

737
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,159
a serious declaration of faith and called in to be

738
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:37,679
a laughing asshole about.

739
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:43,119
Speaker 4: Can't you explain fundamental thought processes or whatever you're talking about?

740
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: Can you stand topic?

741
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: I literally, I literally did a minute ago before you

742
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,960
switch topics to something else.

743
00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 4: You said that, but you did explain, please define that

744
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,639
if you will, fundamental thought process.

745
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: I didn't say fundamental thought processes. I said, like the

746
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,639
way that these folks are laying out the structure of

747
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,320
thought and scientific thinking and how that's important as opposed

748
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,119
to just saying do whatever you want, and so what

749
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,199
I'm just trying to get at here because it's it's

750
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,159
very clear that like seven new thoughts was a bit

751
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:18,400
too much for you. But at the end of the day,

752
00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:20,800
all I'm trying to do is show you that the

753
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,480
AI overview that you came in here shouting about isn't

754
00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:27,360
accurate or useful. And if you actually take the time

755
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,079
to learn about other people's beliefs, you might be impressed

756
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:32,480
by what you find. Maybe they actually have something to

757
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:34,280
go off of here, maybe they actually have something interesting

758
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,760
to say. You're still just yelling, so I don't expect

759
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,320
that you would take the time for that, But if

760
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,159
you tried, you might learn a new thing, and that'd

761
00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:40,719
be a lot of fun.

762
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 4: They need to get their programming right on the algorithm.

763
00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: No, you need to learn not to trust AI overviews

764
00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:50,960
because that's a dumb thing to do. Their programming on

765
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,079
their website is completely concise. You read an AI overview

766
00:36:55,119 --> 00:36:57,519
and thought that it was reality. That's a you problem,

767
00:36:57,559 --> 00:36:58,360
not a them problem.

768
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 4: I had read the seven Tenants, they were packed philosophy

769
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:06,599
from the sixty didn't even get it right. You didn't

770
00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:08,039
even have the haircut right.

771
00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:11,559
Speaker 2: So you did read the Seven Tenants and then instead

772
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,679
of remembering that you just read an AI overview and

773
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,760
called to make fun of people about something that they

774
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,800
don't actually believe.

775
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:22,039
Speaker 4: Oh, does it not promote self adults? That's what you're saying.

776
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:23,039
You're going against.

777
00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 2: No, no, it doesn't at all.

778
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,679
Speaker 4: Well, we'll have to get this AI corrected and they'll

779
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,920
fix it. Problem, you know what?

780
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,159
Speaker 2: Or again, can't stress this enough. You have control of

781
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,719
your own brain, and so you could just choose to

782
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,079
not trust an obviously fucked up AI overview, especially considering

783
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:46,119
the fact that it has been consistently proven to be

784
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,280
fraudulent and to be faulty over and over and over again.

785
00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:52,440
You could take responsibility for yourself instead of complaining about

786
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,119
the AI.

787
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,039
Speaker 4: I'm trying to do. You adhere to the Satanic Bible,

788
00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:00,400
did though, that's what it is, So you here to

789
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:01,440
that bright.

790
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: No, I'm not a Satanist. I don't disagree with their tenants,

791
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,360
but I'm not a practicing member of this church.

792
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 4: It seems like you're very kind of fervent for the movement.

793
00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 2: I literally just read what they wrote on a website

794
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,119
because you couldn't be bothered to do that, and you.

795
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 4: Just happen to agree with everything it said, you know,

796
00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:24,400
disparaging people and rip it off John Stuart Mills on

797
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:26,760
Liberty with that bullshit and everything.

798
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 2: Can you tell me one part of that that I

799
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,159
specifically said that I agree with everything that this says,

800
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,400
and you're.

801
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 4: Defending this religion and it is one Just so you know,

802
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:43,800
dogma is as dogma does. Bible followers lobby Congress Congress

803
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,920
just like Christ did. They have special interest groups.

804
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: So you so it's pretty clear that you have a

805
00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:52,239
problem with paying attention because you remember at the beginning

806
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,480
when I did say that this was a registered religion.

807
00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:56,679
You're not making any points here. That's part of the

808
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,559
reason why I don't join with you. So it sounds

809
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:01,840
like you're having an argument with your soap bottles in

810
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,679
the shower and you're putting it now on the show,

811
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,280
trying to have it with me. Sorry, this shit doesn't

812
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,719
work the way that it does in your head. And

813
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,800
it appears that that was a bit too much because

814
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,800
now he's hung up. He tried, he tried to say words.

815
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:16,360
It's things like that, like we talk about this a lot,

816
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,480
but we have a real problem on these shows with

817
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,960
what we call pose law. Pose law is this idea.

818
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,880
It's this old Internet tenet that it's without context, without

819
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,679
any disclaimer. It's impossible to know if somebody is just

820
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,840
trolling and it's just saying dumb shit to say dumb shit,

821
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,239
or if they're sincere in how ridiculous they're being. And

822
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,199
I think that was a great example of it. It's

823
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,119
really hard to tell if that dude really thought that

824
00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:45,360
he was cooking because he read an AI overview about

825
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,440
something and was going to shock us all about the

826
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:53,679
revelation that the religion was a religion. Who knew? But

827
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,559
at the end of the day, if you just listen,

828
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:57,360
if you want to know what somebody believes, listen to

829
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,920
what they say. They literally have a website they published

830
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,800
on their own with all their beliefs right there. Anybody

831
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,920
can read it and it'd be real easy. And if

832
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,719
you don't believe those things, if you know except those

833
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,880
things you know you do, you don't join easy squeezy

834
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:14,960
As for me, definitely like number one, acting with compassion

835
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,960
and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason, definitely

836
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,320
Number two. Struggle for justice is ongoing and should we

837
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,320
be a necessary pursuit as prevail overall laws. Definitely, one's

838
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,719
body is inviolable. Definitely, freedoms of others should be respected,

839
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,840
including the freedom to defend to offend. Absolutely. I think

840
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,280
that there's a really interesting discussion to be had there,

841
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,039
But overall, fundamentally totally beliefs should conform to scientific understanding

842
00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:42,519
the world one hundred percent. Number six that we didn't

843
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:45,440
get to. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake,

844
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,400
one should be their best to rectify it and resolve

845
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,280
any harm that may have been caused. I don't see

846
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,960
how anyone could disagree with that. And finally, number seven,

847
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:56,320
every tenant is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility

848
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,199
and action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and

849
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,760
justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

850
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,719
So that whole bullshit rant at the end there that

851
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,000
dogma is as dogma? Does they have a thing about

852
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,679
that in there, about how this shouldn't be taken as dogma.

853
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,320
You'd know that if you bother to actually read the

854
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,440
fucking website instead of an AI overview letting some fucking

855
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,559
bot do your thinking for you, try thinking for yourself.

856
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:24,039
It's a lot of fun, it's interesting, It makes you

857
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:27,360
a better person. What a time for those who are asking. Yes,

858
00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,639
Justin is dead. Uh, and so for that reason, I'm

859
00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:32,599
going to move on to the next call myself. Welcome

860
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:35,679
to the Forest show. It's Forest and Only Forrest and

861
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:40,440
ah damn, the next call is just for Justin. So

862
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,800
I guess in the meantime we'll talk to who are

863
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,199
we gonna talk to? Who are we gonna talk to?

864
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,480
Who we're gonna talk to? Uh, you know it's cruel.

865
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:52,519
Let's talk to Robert who is calling him for Justin?

866
00:41:52,519 --> 00:41:55,639
Hopefully Justin will be back very quickly, But I'm gonna

867
00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:57,519
talk to Robert for a second. Unfol Justin gets here.

868
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,639
Robert calling from Georgia, pronouns he him. Hello, you're on

869
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,159
AXP with Forest and Only Forest. How are you today, Robert?

870
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 5: Yes, fine, Forest, Thank you right on.

871
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,639
Speaker 2: So I would love to know what you're calling about.

872
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,199
Justin will hopefully rise from the dead like Jesus in

873
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,519
just a couple of seconds. But in the meantime you've

874
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:19,000
got me and I would love to talk for just

875
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:22,159
a second about some other stuff. All right, right, so

876
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:23,960
what exactly what are you calling about? As far as

877
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,280
these two prophecies, because I what it says here in

878
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,639
the chat is that you're are the call screen is

879
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:32,239
that you're ready to roast Justin on Jesus fulfilling at

880
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,000
least two prophecies. What prophecies are we talking about?

881
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 5: Well, how do you feel about that? Do you feel

882
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,239
like Jesus fulfilled any prophecies?

883
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,039
Speaker 2: I So I'm not in any way a Bible expert

884
00:42:42,119 --> 00:42:44,000
or a scholar, but I can tell you that the

885
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:47,599
prophecies that I know of, no that a lot of

886
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,760
it is like it said something in the Old Testament

887
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:53,920
and then said the prophecy was fulfilled in the New Testament.

888
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:56,199
And there are even a couple of situations in which,

889
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,559
like it's very clear that the New Testament was like

890
00:42:58,639 --> 00:43:04,400
kind of massaged and force fit into this Old Testament prophecy. Like,

891
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,719
for example, Jesus in the Old Testament is called a

892
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,880
manual I believe. And so you have this idea of

893
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,480
this guy named Emmanuel who's going to be this messiah

894
00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:17,519
figure that comes out of wherever and does and you

895
00:43:17,679 --> 00:43:21,320
have then suddenly I think it's John. I don't remember

896
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,119
one of the gospels. Justin will know when he gets

897
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:26,320
back where It's kind of like just clearly force fitting

898
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,280
like they were talking about this guy, this guy Emmanuel

899
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,719
actually means Jesus. They just didn't know it at the time,

900
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,400
So things like that kind of But beyond that, as

901
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,039
far as actual prophecies of Jesus himself, I certainly wouldn't

902
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:40,840
want to call myself an expert on any of that.

903
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:43,519
Speaker 5: Right, Well, do you have any way to pull up

904
00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:45,360
Habaka two chapter two?

905
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: I don't know what that is. I can ask you also, like,

906
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,679
while we're here, while we're waiting on Justin to resurrect,

907
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,679
there's Justin. He's back right there, and oh my god,

908
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:57,599
he looks so different. I've done what.

909
00:43:57,559 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 9: Jesus has done, exactly what Jesus did, and I was

910
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,199
ready directed an unrecognizable to any of my followers.

911
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: That's what I am. I'm just in. I do want

912
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,840
to add, like, while we're here, Robert, while we're waiting

913
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,199
on Justin, get back, because don't want to steal his

914
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,719
thunder and pull up these prophecies that you're saying you

915
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,760
want to roast him on, Like, maybe we can focus

916
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,599
on some other parts of the Bible, like the resurrection story,

917
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:19,360
for example, do you agree that the resurrection story in

918
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,639
the Bible is totally unreliable. Or do you think that

919
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:23,000
the resurrection story makes sense?

920
00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 5: Well, it definitely makes sense as far as that's what

921
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,920
all the surrounding cultures had through history before Jesus, and

922
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,639
they kept saying that was gonna happen, and then it

923
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:33,599
actually happened.

924
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: Just happened, happen with other gods and things like that,

925
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,119
and then here in the Bible you get four different

926
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:41,239
resurrection stories. What about like the beginning of the Bible,

927
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,480
like the creation of the world. Do you think that

928
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,679
the genesis account is real? I'm trying to find something

929
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,559
interesting to talk to you about as all.

930
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 5: Right along, Well, my thing is, I could never become

931
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,639
an atheist just being real with you. You want honest

932
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:57,800
people and honest thoughts. And when I find out if

933
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,880
different things that are going on, how can I deny

934
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:05,480
the reality that we're living and it's so put together,

935
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,960
our minds, our bodies, creation. I'm getting ready for hunting

936
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,400
season and just seeing how beautiful everything's put together, knowing

937
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:15,760
all the hurt that's in this world and all. But

938
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,880
I could never deny now a creator, whether it's the

939
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,119
Islam God or the other God, any god you want,

940
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:25,559
you know, man made God. But I could never deny

941
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,960
a creator or a master programmer or a designer something

942
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,159
that had to do something.

943
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,119
Speaker 2: With this we gets you to a creator?

944
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 9: What gets you there? Well, because she said you can't

945
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,480
deny one. But what are the steps that get you

946
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:41,000
from seeing all this we've got around us? So that creator,

947
00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:43,519
there must be a series of steps that gets you thinking,

948
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,320
and those thought processes take us through those thought processes.

949
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 4: All right.

950
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,639
Speaker 5: The thought process that I would come to is love

951
00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:53,760
and hate. And there's a distinction between good and evil,

952
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,119
and you can choose it. It said you shall be

953
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,000
as God's knowing good and evil. So just our human

954
00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:01,280
experience down here for the little bit of time that

955
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,199
we are, I just believe that there's definitely something going

956
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,679
on that you can experience it and have the integrity

957
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,519
to want to do one or the other, because some

958
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:13,440
people are just bent on being evil and I don't know,

959
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:14,440
and that's the way it is.

960
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,199
Speaker 2: But let me let me you know, let me ask

961
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,440
you then there, Robert, do you believe that this whatever

962
00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:22,280
this creator is, whatever it might look like, do you

963
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,599
believe that it is in some sort of control of

964
00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:25,800
this universe.

965
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 5: That is really hard to say at the moment, because

966
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,079
it seems like he just spun it up and walked

967
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:33,480
away from it and let us figure it out as

968
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,760
far as getting help, you know, supernatural help it. So

969
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,159
I believe he's a supernatural god, but he's supernaturally spun

970
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:42,440
it all up and now we're here to experience it

971
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,679
and we have natural law and we just go buy it.

972
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:46,559
And you know it.

973
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: Doesn't he or you talks about when when you talked

974
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,079
about you have to believe there's a creator, you didn't

975
00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:55,800
just mention the universe existing. You were sure to say that,

976
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,119
like there's all this suffering and all this different stuff

977
00:46:58,159 --> 00:47:00,480
going on all over the place. It sounds to me

978
00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:03,960
like you were saying, there's somebody at the controls. There's

979
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,440
some reason for all of this stuff. Now it sounds

980
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,760
like you're taking a more deistic approach that this god

981
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,679
just farted the universe into existence and pieced out and

982
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,599
all of the pain and suffering and everything that we

983
00:47:13,679 --> 00:47:17,400
see around us is just a natural, unexplainable phenomena that

984
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,960
has no real meaning. Is it one or the other?

985
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 5: You know, it's definitely there's a meaning. That's what I'm saying.

986
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,039
It's hard to say that you would go through this

987
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,840
life and learn all the things that we're learning for

988
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,599
no reason, for just the waste. I don't believe that

989
00:47:31,639 --> 00:47:34,280
it's a waste. I believe that there is something to

990
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,000
it all. And karma is a big thing how you

991
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:39,440
treat others, and it's important. I think we can make

992
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:40,880
this place a better place.

993
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 2: So you're making a lot of claims that I agree with,

994
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,239
and then a lot of claims that I don't agree with.

995
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,920
The idea that we can, you know, we try to

996
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,480
treat others better, I agree with that. The idea that

997
00:47:51,559 --> 00:47:54,280
there's some karmic balance that is in play here, I

998
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,079
don't agree with, right. And so this is the issue

999
00:47:57,119 --> 00:47:59,480
I'm having is it sounds like you're just saying a

1000
00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:02,280
lot of true truisms like hey, life is hard and

1001
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,840
life is crazy, and we need to try to make

1002
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,280
the world a better place, Like sure, cool, all that,

1003
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:10,800
and then you're tacking on and therefore there's some fucking

1004
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,519
wizard that made this place this way on purpose. And

1005
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:16,239
I don't get the connection there. How are you building

1006
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,440
that bridge from one to the.

1007
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 5: Other, because I don't get the connection. How you could

1008
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,920
look at the human anatomy and the eyeballs in our

1009
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:27,159
minds and be an electrician knowing how the body works

1010
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,079
and nature in everything, and deny that there's a creator.

1011
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,599
I mean that breaks up so I dynamics, No, it doesn't.

1012
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,880
Energy can't be destroyed it it can't be created. So

1013
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,400
your big bank theory don't make sense. Someone had to

1014
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:40,960
create it.

1015
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 2: So Robert, you've said, now, like just in that sentence,

1016
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,320
there several things that makes zero sense. Just to be clear,

1017
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:50,679
I have studied anatomy, and I have studied how the

1018
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,960
body is. You know how it works and how the

1019
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,920
different nerves go like an electrician, and how the eyeball works.

1020
00:48:57,039 --> 00:48:59,239
I've studied all those things, and I know what the

1021
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:00,960
big bang is, and I know what the first law

1022
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,360
of thermo dynamics is. None of these things work the

1023
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,800
way that you say they do. So to answer your question,

1024
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,719
you said you don't understand how I can see all

1025
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,920
these things, and it's and not believe in God is

1026
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,880
because I actually took the time to study these things.

1027
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,960
And the cool thing about anatomy is that it whole sale,

1028
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,599
one hundred percent front to back points towards evolution. There's

1029
00:49:19,679 --> 00:49:22,519
no part of your anatomy that points towards any kind

1030
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:25,519
of divine intelligent creator or anything like that. When we

1031
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:28,880
talk about the first law therma dynamics, absolutely not violated

1032
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,280
by the Big Bang. That isn't how that works, nor

1033
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,280
and that you didn't say this, but the most common

1034
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,239
thing is that nor is evolution violating the second law

1035
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:39,199
of therma dynamics. That's simply not the case. So the

1036
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,280
way that I'm able to not believe in a god

1037
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,400
while understanding these things is that I actually took the

1038
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,239
time to really understand them. I'd be happy to keep

1039
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,000
talking to Robert, but Justin is back if you want

1040
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,000
to talk to about these prophecies, or I'm happy to

1041
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:50,960
keep talking about science. It's it's whatever.

1042
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I apologize. My power flickered where I live and

1043
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,079
all my equipment had to restart itself. But I'm I listen,

1044
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:00,760
you had me at prophecies.

1045
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,519
Speaker 5: I'm all ears Well, okay, right on, Justin. Do you

1046
00:50:03,519 --> 00:50:06,079
have any way to pull up Habaka too? Because you

1047
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:09,719
said Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies and Habaka too, there's

1048
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,760
quite a few prophecies he absolutely did fulfill.

1049
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,559
Speaker 1: But sure are they messianic?

1050
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 5: Uh? It's definitely future. It's talking about future. The whole

1051
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:23,599
chapter Habaka two starts out with saying run because it

1052
00:50:23,639 --> 00:50:24,280
will happen.

1053
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so the Zephaniah. Zephaniah says a whole bunch

1054
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,599
of stuff that's going to happen at the day of

1055
00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:30,400
the Lord, which is imminently near, and then none of

1056
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,119
it came true. So what part of Habakuk two kim true.

1057
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 5: Well, it says that he was the just shall live

1058
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,559
by his faith. How many people do you know today

1059
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:41,280
that they say the just shall live by his faith?

1060
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,480
And it says the just shall live by his faith.

1061
00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:46,559
Speaker 1: Well, it says the righteous the same thing, righteous will

1062
00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:49,280
will live by faith. But this was already true of Abraham.

1063
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:52,239
This is not a messianic prophecy, and it certainly wasn't

1064
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,320
anything about Jesus.

1065
00:50:53,639 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 5: So he didn't do any of those things all through

1066
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,280
chapter two. I don't know if you pull it up

1067
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,440
on the screen or you looking at it. I could

1068
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,719
pull my Bible out and start hitting all the things

1069
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,320
that there's nobody else like Zacharia thirteen six, that's just

1070
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,239
one scripture instead of a whole haboka to the whole chapter.

1071
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,840
But what about Zacharai thirteen sick and.

1072
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:14,159
Speaker 1: What about it?

1073
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 5: Because what are these holds in your hands from your friends?

1074
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,800
I received from the friends in my house.

1075
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what that passage is actually about,

1076
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,679
because I don't think you do, right. That passage is

1077
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,280
talking about a future person who is trying to hide

1078
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,599
the fact that they are a prophet, because it's saying

1079
00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:33,800
at this time period that prophecies and profits will cease in.

1080
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,480
Even those who were profits will basically be hiding themselves.

1081
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,760
So this is the problem that you're going to have

1082
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,199
as you're approaching the text and you're saying, ah, here's

1083
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,880
one or two words, it just sounds like Jesus. I

1084
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,599
saw the word a hole in the hand. It must

1085
00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:49,639
be about Jesus, right, But you're ignoring the entire context

1086
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,440
of the actual passage, Like you can't just pick out

1087
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,000
two or three words in an entire passage and claim

1088
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:56,000
that it's about Jesus.

1089
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 5: Well, I really thought I was going to roast you

1090
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,039
on these two, especially Habaka too. There's not too many

1091
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:04,280
people that in history they can line up to Habaka iwo.

1092
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,679
Speaker 1: If you read it, and I've read it right, Okay,

1093
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,320
Now you want to hear like you want to hear

1094
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,920
like a real Messianic prophecy. Sure, yeah, Jeremiah thirty three.

1095
00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:14,840
I mean, let me know when you get your Bible worry,

1096
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,039
Jeremiah thirty three says. The days are surely coming, says

1097
00:52:18,119 --> 00:52:20,159
the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made

1098
00:52:20,199 --> 00:52:22,280
to the House of Israel and the House of Judah

1099
00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,400
in those days, and at that time, I will cause

1100
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,880
a righteous branch to spring up for David, and he

1101
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,440
shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days,

1102
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,079
Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety.

1103
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,840
This is a king who physically rescues his people, and

1104
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,960
it says, for thus say it, the Lord David shall

1105
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:42,960
never lack a man to sit on the throne of

1106
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,639
the House of Israel, and the livitical priest shall never

1107
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,400
lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings,

1108
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,639
to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices forever. So

1109
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,920
in the Messianic age, according to the Bible, there will

1110
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,760
be a king on a literal throne, and there will

1111
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,559
be actual levitical priests giving actual sacrifices by fire in

1112
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:06,719
the temple. So that means the New Testament's entirely false.

1113
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 5: You know, it's hard for us to choke this stuff

1114
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,000
them sometimes and you try to think about what it

1115
00:53:11,159 --> 00:53:11,360
say you.

1116
00:53:11,679 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: I know, I get it. It was hard for me

1117
00:53:13,039 --> 00:53:14,920
too when I was first encountering the Old Testament.

1118
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 5: We haven't put it through. And then you get here's

1119
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,039
another prophecy, and then that gets shot down, and I'm

1120
00:53:20,159 --> 00:53:22,239
trying to find the right prophecy. And I really thought

1121
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:23,559
I had you smoked on this one.

1122
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: I know, go back and find another one, and come

1123
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,519
back when you find another one that you think you got.

1124
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,440
I'll give you one prophecy that Jesus did fulfill if

1125
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:31,920
you want.

1126
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 5: You're gonna agree that he did fulfill one, only one.

1127
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: I don't think you're gonna like it. Juteronomy thirteen. If

1128
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,039
prophets are those who divine by dreams, appear among you

1129
00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:42,639
and show you omens or poor tends, and the omens

1130
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,760
or the poor tents declared by them take place, and

1131
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,159
they say, let us follow other gods whom you have

1132
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,119
not known, let us serve them. You must not heed

1133
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:52,880
the words of those prophets are those who divine by dreams,

1134
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:55,000
For the Lord your God is testing you to know

1135
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:56,960
whether indeed you love the Lord your God with all

1136
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,239
your heart and all your soul. The Lord your God,

1137
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,800
you shall follow alone hill. You shall fear his commandments,

1138
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,760
you shall keep his voice, you shall obey, and him

1139
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,639
you shall serve and hold fast too. But those profits

1140
00:54:09,679 --> 00:54:11,840
who divined by dreams shall be put to death.

1141
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 5: I'm not going to crash that on you. I know

1142
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,559
you just don't understand the Trinity and virgin births and

1143
00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:19,039
all the stuff that we You just don't understand this.

1144
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,519
Speaker 2: Argue that that's so rough, Robert. That's so rough that

1145
00:54:24,639 --> 00:54:28,360
this dude who actually has expertise in this area just

1146
00:54:28,599 --> 00:54:31,760
actually explain some shit that you didn't know, and you're

1147
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,880
instead of agreeing, like, instead of even trying to grapple

1148
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,239
with it, you're just a you just don't get it, yo.

1149
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,079
You just don't understand this stuff that you used to

1150
00:54:40,199 --> 00:54:42,280
believe in, that you used to do for a living.

1151
00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: That's so lame, Robert, come back next time, and I

1152
00:54:45,559 --> 00:54:48,039
promise we'll have a full dialogue on the Trinity.

1153
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: Okay, call me if you ever want to talk about

1154
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:53,559
anatomy or the Big Bang. I would be happy, because

1155
00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:56,039
that's before you came back justin. That's what Robert was

1156
00:54:56,039 --> 00:54:58,119
saying was that, you know, if you look at anatomy

1157
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:00,159
and you look at how nerves are wired and look

1158
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:02,519
at the human eye, it all very clearly points to God.

1159
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,039
And the Big Bang violates the first law thromindanamex absolutely

1160
00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:08,880
zero percent of which is true. And as someone who

1161
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,400
has actually studied these things, I studied anatomy at a

1162
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,440
graduate level, I can really go into it with you,

1163
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,079
and we can talk about evolution out of this, really

1164
00:55:16,199 --> 00:55:19,079
dig into it, and we can show how no, none

1165
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:21,760
of this is divine. None of this is necessary of

1166
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,440
a god. None of this is indicative of a god,

1167
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,039
none of that. We're here for you, but it would

1168
00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:27,920
be really cool if you could actually grapple with what

1169
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:29,880
we're saying, rather than just telling us that we don't

1170
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,239
understand some esoteric shit from whatever other thing you believe in.

1171
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 5: That blows just He's just trying to explain to you

1172
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,480
that I got roasted twice. I got roasted before you

1173
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:41,320
got here, and then I got roasted. You all have

1174
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,679
a good evening, all right.

1175
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for going in, Robert.

1176
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,119
Speaker 2: Pick out Robert. I didn't even roast him. I didn't

1177
00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:48,360
think I really he just said some stuff and I

1178
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,119
was like, hey, nah ah, though, is the thing that

1179
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,800
that's not how that works? And he just kind of

1180
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,880
dropped it. I appreciate, like if you get caught in

1181
00:55:57,039 --> 00:55:59,119
something that you drop it, but like, honestly, I would

1182
00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:02,760
rather Rob would have asked some questions because it sounds

1183
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,519
like he's just believing whatever anybody with any kind of

1184
00:56:05,559 --> 00:56:08,599
authority is saying. The way he brought up the whole

1185
00:56:08,639 --> 00:56:11,519
thing about the Eye and the Big Bang and these

1186
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,039
prophecies and stuff. I've never heard of Chewbacca too, but

1187
00:56:15,199 --> 00:56:18,000
the way he said that, it sounds like he heard

1188
00:56:18,119 --> 00:56:20,320
some preacher say this, and so he brought it up

1189
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,159
to you. He's like, hey, what about Hitachi too? And

1190
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,880
you're like, sorry, that's not what that is. And it

1191
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,239
was the same thing for me. It was just like, well,

1192
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,559
what about you know the Big Bang? That violates the

1193
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:31,920
first law term and the next that's entirely out the window,

1194
00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:34,719
and that's just something you heard Kentoven say. I'm sorry, like,

1195
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,480
that's not how that works. And if you just grappled

1196
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:39,239
with it the first time you heard it, or if

1197
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,119
you grappled with us refuting it, you would actually then

1198
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,159
be learning something instead of just believing what somebody told you.

1199
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,079
I hope Robert calls back and we can have a

1200
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:49,280
serious discussion. I don't want him just to be discouraged.

1201
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:50,039
I want him to try.

1202
00:56:50,199 --> 00:56:53,199
Speaker 1: I suspect he will. He's called quite a few times already.

1203
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,920
We've got a couple of people in the queue. I'm intrigued.

1204
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,800
Let's grab a couple of super chests and we'll get

1205
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,800
we've got and this is rare, but we've got a theist,

1206
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,199
a Hindu theist, waiting to get in. And I'm most

1207
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,840
intrigued to hear about this. But let's grab some supertech.

1208
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,440
Our friend Carlos is with us tonight. Carlos, thank you

1209
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:15,239
so so much for the three hundred MX. Carlos says,

1210
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:20,239
what a killer combo Forrest and justin saludos. Thank you

1211
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:21,719
so much, Carlos. Great to see you tonight.

1212
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 10: Thank you for the.

1213
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: Mid guard xylophones. I don't know that's so stupid. We

1214
00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:33,320
also got psychological projectionists sending five monarchy books. Who says,

1215
00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:37,920
as love normally means extreme preference, does all loving ie

1216
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,840
lack of preference actually mean the same as all indifferent?

1217
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,639
As in meaningless? I like to think of it like disinterested.

1218
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,519
You know what I mean, you're so you're just if

1219
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:49,719
you just don't have any preference any way. Yeah, it's

1220
00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:50,920
yeah for sure.

1221
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,639
Speaker 1: And five from our friend Simones. Moone says, thanks guys

1222
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:57,519
for taking my call. I really appreciate your help. By

1223
00:57:57,559 --> 00:57:59,960
the way, I think the caller after me was drunk

1224
00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:02,960
cause a camel and I could not agree more. If

1225
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:06,159
he wasn't drunk as a skunk, I'd hate to see

1226
00:58:06,239 --> 00:58:07,760
him like when he was.

1227
00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 2: It can't be good. That was rough and like I

1228
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:13,920
can't stress enough. If you're like I, if you get

1229
00:58:14,039 --> 00:58:17,199
nothing else from this show, people out there watching, don't

1230
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:20,079
just trust the AI over you don't do it like

1231
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:24,159
it's a terrible mistake. Do you remember when Google first

1232
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,320
rolled that out and there were like screenshots going around

1233
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:29,719
like how do I deal with depression? And the AI

1234
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,880
overview is like you should try jumping off a bridge

1235
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,960
and it's like you and that was real, or like

1236
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:36,280
you know it's healthy to eat five to ten rocks

1237
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,920
per day, and she like just it just says shit.

1238
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:41,840
It just scours the Internet for things that look it's

1239
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,840
a search engine. It does the exact same crawl that

1240
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,760
it does with a search mainly from Reddit, and it

1241
00:58:48,039 --> 00:58:51,679
just pulls bullshit and puts it into a semi coherent sentence.

1242
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,840
It's not real, and it's not reliable, and it's not trustworthy,

1243
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,880
and it's not accurate. It is a robot mimicking human thought.

1244
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:03,079
You need to think for yourself. Please please do it.

1245
00:59:03,559 --> 00:59:06,119
Googling was already the easy way. I just want to

1246
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:08,840
be clear if you've been, if you have believed this

1247
00:59:09,039 --> 00:59:12,920
long that taking the time to google something was labor woof,

1248
00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:16,639
but like it's now taking the stat and making it

1249
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,679
even dumber. Just please please try reading oh four No

1250
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:28,360
two dollars from Woollte Mammoth justin just underwent the transfiguration absolutely.

1251
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:33,159
Speaker 1: Indeed, and twenty hours from our friend Nobody on fire,

1252
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:38,159
big w Nobody with a quotation of real scripture from

1253
00:59:38,519 --> 00:59:41,800
a court see in four twenty to sixty nine. The

1254
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:46,440
forest is grounded upon Doug. Doug biogenesis was the spark

1255
00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:49,840
that brought all. We build our fire upon rocks. The

1256
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,840
rocks boil and purify the water of life. Never hazardously

1257
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,239
fill one's bro rock hard for Doug, absolutely, I always

1258
00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:01,559
remember stay rock hard for Doug, and sinfully wet for Sharon,

1259
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,360
let's grab our if you.

1260
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,119
Speaker 2: Know, you know, I love that every every like atheist

1261
01:00:08,199 --> 01:00:12,679
commentator has like their own silly ass deity thing, and

1262
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,079
they all are just loaded with inside jokes and they're

1263
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:20,079
all just grotesquely sexual and it's great. Have to be great,

1264
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:20,679
I have to be.

1265
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: It shows the nonsensicalness of presuppositional apologetics, like when I

1266
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,519
could do the same pres up for a pet rock

1267
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,480
that you can do for your god, it shows you

1268
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,320
just how silly it is. Yep, man, Well, we've got

1269
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,519
our friend from from India, who I, as far as

1270
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:40,360
I can tell, is a member of the Hindu faith,

1271
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,360
says consciousness and Vedic concept of God. And then no

1272
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,639
question or actual proposition. Can you put some meat on

1273
01:00:47,719 --> 01:00:50,440
the bone as to what you're referring to or suggesting

1274
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,599
that consciousness somehow proves that gods exist?

1275
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,119
Speaker 10: I just stand forrest. Thanks for accepting by Paul. First

1276
01:00:58,159 --> 01:01:00,599
of all, thank you for I have no idea. I

1277
01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:03,519
have no version or hatred towards Eighteist or anything. Because

1278
01:01:03,639 --> 01:01:06,559
as for the Hindu worldview, even atister will come to

1279
01:01:06,639 --> 01:01:09,280
be Hindus, they can be Hindu eighty says, But that

1280
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,559
being said, I saw that you guys are talking about

1281
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,239
compatibility of science God, right, So I would say that

1282
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,880
the Vedic model of God, the Vedic worldview of what

1283
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,559
God is and what is the relationship with God and

1284
01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:26,559
creation and so on, is actually compatible with science. To begin,

1285
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:29,039
I would like to give you what the Vedic model

1286
01:01:29,079 --> 01:01:31,440
of God is. Is that something you as interested in?

1287
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 4: Yes?

1288
01:01:32,159 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 6: Can you?

1289
01:01:32,599 --> 01:01:34,599
Speaker 2: Before you do? Can you please tell us what is

1290
01:01:34,679 --> 01:01:35,719
your name? Really quick?

1291
01:01:36,519 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 10: I would like to recall that Hindu.

1292
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: Okay, that's fine. I wasn't sure because I see you

1293
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,599
call in the web caller, and so sometimes things get

1294
01:01:43,639 --> 01:01:46,559
mixed around. So I wasn't sure if the word Hindu

1295
01:01:46,639 --> 01:01:48,760
got put into your name accidentally or if that's what

1296
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,079
you prefer. So we'll call you Hindu for the rest

1297
01:01:51,119 --> 01:01:51,880
of the call. That's fine.

1298
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:52,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1299
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,719
Speaker 1: So, like, I don't know much about the Vedic model,

1300
01:01:55,559 --> 01:01:59,320
but my understanding is that the Vedic model has multiple deities.

1301
01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 4: Is that correct?

1302
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 10: The Vedic model, in the ultimate sense of reality, has

1303
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:09,079
only one God, which is called Brahman. The many deities

1304
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,960
or manifestations of that one is actually used he as

1305
01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:16,360
those different names and forms and functions, sort of like

1306
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,960
personifications or manifestations of that one.

1307
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:21,519
Speaker 1: So it's like a modalist view where there's one supreme god,

1308
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:23,239
but it can manifest in multiple ways.

1309
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 10: Kind of it's more I will say it's a penentheestika

1310
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:32,599
where pes like pantheonsm okay, So like in your world

1311
01:02:32,679 --> 01:02:35,039
view then or in your opinion, what would be like

1312
01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:38,159
a good argument for why this would be the case

1313
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,480
that this god or this reality exists. Yes, So I

1314
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,039
kind of like following this debate about whether consciousness originates

1315
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:51,639
from the brain or whether it is actually an ultimate

1316
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,679
reality of the universe and song. So from what I

1317
01:02:54,800 --> 01:03:00,159
could gather so far, neuroscientists, neurobiologists, whatever human called ai

1318
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,280
to prove conscious emerges from the brain. Even if you

1319
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,199
look at the debates going on between philosophers, mainly the

1320
01:03:07,239 --> 01:03:11,760
philosophers who are not materialist non physicalism philosophers, they they

1321
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:16,480
thaim that you cannot prove consciousness emerges from the brain,

1322
01:03:16,519 --> 01:03:21,519
whereas the ones who are materialists, the neurobiologists, they say, you, oh,

1323
01:03:21,639 --> 01:03:24,679
we can definitely prove consciousness emerges from the brain. But

1324
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,440
as you've seen so far in this debate that the

1325
01:03:27,519 --> 01:03:31,280
neurobiologists have failed to prove that consciousness emerges from the brain.

1326
01:03:31,679 --> 01:03:35,679
And even in physics, I see what is emerging is

1327
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,559
sort of this idea that space time paradigm is itself flawed,

1328
01:03:39,679 --> 01:03:42,760
and they say, we have something deeper than space time paradigm,

1329
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,079
and may be most public the space time paradigm is

1330
01:03:45,199 --> 01:03:50,199
evolving our manifestation on cond reality of which according to

1331
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:55,840
some philosophers this is Donald Hoffman, which has Bard Bernardo Castrophe.

1332
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,800
I think apologies to find mispronouncing. Then, according to them,

1333
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:03,039
consciousness is the ultimate reality. And as for the very

1334
01:04:03,199 --> 01:04:05,960
concept of God, the God that you believe in, the

1335
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:10,519
main one God brahman Aka is consciousness. It's pure cont

1336
01:04:10,519 --> 01:04:14,519
So in this worldview, in this framework, science and our

1337
01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:16,880
concept of God is very much compatible.

1338
01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: Right, So, Hindu, I guess what I'm trying to figure

1339
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,880
out though, is if if you and I have like

1340
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:27,440
a roughly comparable model of consciousness, except my consciousness doesn't

1341
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,840
include your God. My model of consciousness just includes the brain,

1342
01:04:31,159 --> 01:04:34,159
what would be the factor that would lead me to

1343
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:39,320
add in like the Hindu God or God's or manifestations

1344
01:04:39,639 --> 01:04:40,440
into the equation.

1345
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 7: So can you please refrase the question?

1346
01:04:42,599 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1347
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so what I'm saying is like, in

1348
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,800
my worldview, consciousness is derived from the brain. You're saying

1349
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,079
that consciousness somehow exists outside of the brain. So what

1350
01:04:53,159 --> 01:04:55,480
I'm trying to figure out is what would be the

1351
01:04:55,719 --> 01:04:58,599
evidence that would lead me as a person to believe

1352
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,519
that consciousness drives from outside of the brain, like some

1353
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,679
source like the Vedic source.

1354
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 10: Well, not necessarily Verdic source. It's like vedas essentially like

1355
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:13,679
Veda translates to knowledge, so it's not exclusive source for example,

1356
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,320
it is it's just one way to say what is

1357
01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:20,119
actually it is? You know, And uh for research lined

1358
01:05:20,239 --> 01:05:24,119
to see where science already has come to the conclusion

1359
01:05:24,199 --> 01:05:26,960
that consciousness images from the brain, because so far in

1360
01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:29,360
academy of what I have followed is there is no

1361
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:32,840
proof that consciousness images from the brain, even uh, the

1362
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:38,840
eurobiologists are failing to prove that controls brain. And the

1363
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,800
thing is, I cannot I'm not that eloquent to put you, guys,

1364
01:05:43,079 --> 01:05:46,079
how consciousness leads to all that we see.

1365
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:47,519
Speaker 7: But as but the radic.

1366
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 10: Concept, the separateness, the multiplicity that we see in creation,

1367
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,360
I mean that that's the wrong word. Creation is the

1368
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,880
wrong word. I cannot say creation creator. But actually the

1369
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,920
idea is the problem under one consciousness manifest Do.

1370
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: You think that our consciousness is how we get our personalities?

1371
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:10,079
Speaker 10: Consciousness is like the he and everything, Like.

1372
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,119
Speaker 1: When my body dies, while I still have the same personality.

1373
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 10: No, but this personality is ingrained to the mind.

1374
01:06:15,719 --> 01:06:18,679
Speaker 1: That's right. Okay, So if consciousness is a source of

1375
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,760
like our characteristics and our personality and things like that,

1376
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,920
it's really weird that we can drastically alter our personal

1377
01:06:26,039 --> 01:06:30,519
characteristics by either modifying the brain or modifying chemicals going

1378
01:06:30,599 --> 01:06:33,840
to the brain. Like, for example, someone who's like really

1379
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,880
angry and aggressive can get a prescription that makes them

1380
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,719
not angry and aggressive. This is a really weird thing

1381
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,639
if consciousness is outside of the brain. If consciousness is

1382
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,480
outside of the brain, we would expect that whatever traits

1383
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:51,360
and behaviors that your consciousness has, it would just be

1384
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,639
transposed to the brain, nothing more. But it's actually the opposite.

1385
01:06:55,719 --> 01:06:58,079
When we tinker with the brain, the parts of our

1386
01:06:58,119 --> 01:07:02,400
consciousness that we would say is immaterial or outside of

1387
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,239
the brain changes. Right. So I just don't think the

1388
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,199
model that consciousness is like the driver of the brain

1389
01:07:09,599 --> 01:07:12,159
rather than the brain. The driver of consciousness.

1390
01:07:11,639 --> 01:07:16,239
Speaker 10: Works personality, the brain, everything is just the emergent phenomena

1391
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,880
manifestation of the underlying supreme reality, which is the consciousness.

1392
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,199
Speaker 1: Like, no, you can say that, but saying that is

1393
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,119
just restating the conclusion. I'm asking for evidence that would

1394
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:29,440
lead to that conclusion, because we've done quite a bit

1395
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,440
of studies, and all the studies I'm aware of would

1396
01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:37,360
demonstrate that consciousness would necessarily be a derivative of the brain,

1397
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,559
not the other way around, which is why, Like if

1398
01:07:39,599 --> 01:07:44,000
you do read the Roger Sperry split brain experiments right

1399
01:07:44,079 --> 01:07:47,159
where they split people's hemispheres in half, and then what

1400
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,519
do they do, The people's consciousness starts to have internal struggles.

1401
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:53,840
For example, there was a guy after he had his

1402
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,480
brain split, needed to relearn how to do basic tasks

1403
01:07:57,599 --> 01:08:00,280
like put on his clothes, get dressed, button sure, And

1404
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:02,960
it turned out that it was very difficult to just

1405
01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:05,840
do something like button a shirt because he couldn't coordinate

1406
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,119
even though he intended to he wanted to, he couldn't

1407
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:12,199
actually coordinate the motor skills with both of his hands

1408
01:08:12,239 --> 01:08:15,000
at once. He said, one hand would come up to

1409
01:08:15,239 --> 01:08:17,720
button the shirt while the other one was going behind

1410
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,720
it unbuttoning the shirt. Right, This would be completely unexpected

1411
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,960
if consciousness and decision making and all that nonsense was

1412
01:08:26,079 --> 01:08:30,359
happening in some sort of immaterial presence that just happened

1413
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,960
to inhabit the brain. But I just don't see why

1414
01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:36,159
I would look at any of the data points we

1415
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,520
have and interpret it as some sort of external factor

1416
01:08:40,199 --> 01:08:41,239
influencing the brain.

1417
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 10: What the example that he gave is talking about something

1418
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:48,600
which is not necessarily conscious. The motor skills are all

1419
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,720
like these are all related to the brain, and the

1420
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,119
brain in this model of consciousness is sort of like

1421
01:08:55,199 --> 01:08:58,680
a receiver. Conscistion is just to make sure that you

1422
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,800
understand what I'm talking about. Sciousness is pure awareness, That's

1423
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,359
what I'm talking So, but.

1424
01:09:03,359 --> 01:09:07,399
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still waiting for some type of evidence

1425
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:11,000
that would lead us to believe that consciousness is acting

1426
01:09:11,199 --> 01:09:13,039
on the brain, not the other way around.

1427
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,079
Speaker 10: What do you mean by consciousness is acting on the brain.

1428
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 1: So you just keep restating your belief, And that's not

1429
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,479
an argument. You can't just keep restating your conclusion. You

1430
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,159
need to support your conclusion with some sort of evidence

1431
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:26,840
or fact.

1432
01:09:27,119 --> 01:09:27,239
Speaker 4: Right.

1433
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:29,319
Speaker 1: So, like when I was a freshman in high school,

1434
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:31,600
we had to learn how to write essays is you're

1435
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,319
not in junior high anymore. You're in high school. You

1436
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:35,199
have to write good essays. And it said, start with

1437
01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:37,880
your conclusion, do your research, and then fill in your

1438
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,439
supporting paragraphs. So you already have your conclusion, I need

1439
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,319
you to fill in the supporting paragraphs. What are the

1440
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,800
information that you can put down to support your conclusion

1441
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,119
that consciousness exists outside of the brain.

1442
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:54,239
Speaker 10: Well, I need to know what your definition of consciousness

1443
01:09:54,399 --> 01:09:55,479
is to move forward.

1444
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 1: It's your definition. My definition is yours.

1445
01:09:57,720 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 4: Sorry.

1446
01:09:58,159 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 2: First, yeah, no, no, I I was going to say

1447
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,439
the exact same thing you. You defined it as awareness

1448
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,079
a minute ago. Can you even if take take even

1449
01:10:06,159 --> 01:10:08,239
brain out of it, can you give me one example

1450
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,760
at all of something being aware that is not made

1451
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,520
of matter? Awareness outside of matter? Does that exist?

1452
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,079
Speaker 10: Since awareness cannot exist? But because the brain is like

1453
01:10:20,239 --> 01:10:22,920
a receiver, you know, it channels into that and it

1454
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:23,880
becomes aware of it.

1455
01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:26,159
Speaker 2: So here's here's the issue I'm having is that and

1456
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,119
this is you know what the problem I'm having with

1457
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:32,039
with hearing this is that you started this call by

1458
01:10:32,079 --> 01:10:35,439
saying that, like, you know, neuroscientists and whatnot, they say

1459
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:38,560
that consciousness comes from the brain, but they can't back

1460
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,479
that up. That's just this this thing they're saying. And

1461
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:44,479
then you also have over here the idealists, people like you,

1462
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:50,359
who are saying that consciousness, awareness, whatever, exists fundamentally and

1463
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,119
then brains are able to tap into this. It's like

1464
01:10:53,199 --> 01:10:55,960
an antenna, like a receiver or whatever. The issue that

1465
01:10:56,039 --> 01:10:59,600
I'm having is that from my standpoint, right as a materialist,

1466
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,239
as a biologists to someone who studied neuroscience, or just

1467
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:05,319
any level of this, if I'm looking at it from

1468
01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:08,359
the idea that matter comes first and consciousness comes later,

1469
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:13,600
I can identify several steps to get to where consciousness is,

1470
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,800
and I have evidence for every single one of those steps.

1471
01:11:17,119 --> 01:11:20,600
Most importantly, I have direct evidence to say that if

1472
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:24,880
I change this matter, then consciousness also changes.

1473
01:11:25,319 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 4: Right.

1474
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:30,359
Speaker 2: We have countless examples of somebody's brain changes and their

1475
01:11:30,399 --> 01:11:34,560
consciousness changes, their awareness changes, their personality changes. Justin touched

1476
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,720
on this just a moment ago. On the other side

1477
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,079
of the coin, if we start from the idealist standpoint

1478
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:45,079
and say that consciousness exists first, literally, all we have

1479
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:49,479
is that statement. You have the presupposition that consciousness is first,

1480
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,560
and then the brains that what actual experiments, what steps?

1481
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:58,079
What evidence do you have between the conclusion and the conclusion?

1482
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,000
All I'm hearing over and over is just the statements

1483
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:04,039
that the consciousness is out there and everything else taps

1484
01:12:04,119 --> 01:12:06,399
into it from the material asside, I have a tremendous

1485
01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:08,680
amount of identify a whole steps and evidence for every

1486
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:10,359
single one of them. Where are you where?

1487
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 4: Where?

1488
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 2: All I'm hearing is just the presupposition? So what else

1489
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:14,039
do you have?

1490
01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:18,920
Speaker 10: First of all, consciousness doesn't change the change of brain.

1491
01:12:19,079 --> 01:12:22,159
The consciousness that I'm defining is aware, so you are

1492
01:12:22,319 --> 01:12:25,000
aware that you are someone else, but you are still aware,

1493
01:12:25,119 --> 01:12:27,079
so that is still there. Consciousness is not.

1494
01:12:27,399 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: I would argue awareness can also change what changes in

1495
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:30,319
the brain.

1496
01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:33,279
Speaker 10: But go on, oh can you can we talk about

1497
01:12:33,359 --> 01:12:36,159
the concept of observersantum mechanical observers?

1498
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:36,560
Speaker 7: Oh?

1499
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,640
Speaker 2: Boy, I bet you it isn't what you say it is.

1500
01:12:40,079 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: This is not going to go well, can it tells me?

1501
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:43,039
Speaker 10: What do you think that is?

1502
01:12:43,199 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 2: So just I'm happy to But just before we get there,

1503
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:51,199
really quick, do you have any training in quantum physics? Okay,

1504
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:55,520
I don't either. I'm a biologist. I have general physics training.

1505
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,720
At an undergraduate level. Justin do you have any training

1506
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:00,920
in physics at all, specially quanta physics.

1507
01:13:01,159 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 4: Uh No.

1508
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:05,319
Speaker 1: I went to school for electrical engineering and to learn

1509
01:13:05,399 --> 01:13:06,479
fairy tales from the Bible.

1510
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,079
Speaker 2: Okay, So we have three non physicists here on the call.

1511
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,439
Is there anything that we can talk about? Because I'm

1512
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,039
happy to do it, But is there any discussion that

1513
01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:18,640
can be had between the three of us that will

1514
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,800
actually elucidate whether or not this makes sense? Because I

1515
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:23,520
don't think there is. What do you think?

1516
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 10: Okay, So let's let's think about this. Okay, let's think

1517
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:28,279
about it a dream, our dream?

1518
01:13:28,399 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 7: Okay.

1519
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're moving on to something else. Now, that's good.

1520
01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:33,039
Speaker 1: It's it's weird that you didn't answer his question. I

1521
01:13:33,079 --> 01:13:34,199
thought it was a pretty easy question.

1522
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,520
Speaker 10: No, I'm trying to I'm trying to talk about something

1523
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,279
that is common to That's why I'm talking about dream.

1524
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 2: Is it a common experience or is it something that

1525
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,479
any of the three of us have actually studied in

1526
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:47,319
a real sense and have real training it.

1527
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 10: This is not training.

1528
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:50,079
Speaker 5: Required to talk about dreams.

1529
01:13:50,159 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 10: Like we all experience the dreams where we feel that

1530
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,399
everything is real and the dream.

1531
01:13:55,239 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 2: Right but there is, but there is training necessary to

1532
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,359
talk about what dream fundamentally actually are and where they

1533
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,800
come from and whether or not they mean anything spiritual

1534
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:07,840
like that is something that you should have some training in.

1535
01:14:08,039 --> 01:14:10,920
And I've studied quite a bit of neurobiology, but I've

1536
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:12,159
never studied dream states.

1537
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:13,119
Speaker 10: I'm talking about the.

1538
01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 5: Dream world, you know.

1539
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,560
Speaker 10: Like so like, the idea is we sleep every night.

1540
01:14:18,079 --> 01:14:21,479
Sometimes when we dream, we see that it seems real, right,

1541
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,840
but ultimately when you wake up, you see that it

1542
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:27,359
was just a manifestation of your mind. Where you in

1543
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:31,239
the dream, including the dream was just your mental products.

1544
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:33,239
So you were in that dream and that you are

1545
01:14:33,319 --> 01:14:35,600
aware of that dream. There is a dream world also,

1546
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,880
but all three are just manifestations of your dream a

1547
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,039
few of your mind and expert this analogy. The idea

1548
01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:44,039
is this that the physical world that.

1549
01:14:44,119 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 7: We see.

1550
01:14:46,319 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 1: Hindu. I don't think this conversation is going anywhere, and

1551
01:14:50,119 --> 01:14:53,720
we've got time for just one more guest, and no

1552
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:57,520
amount of like talk about the immaterial reality of dreams

1553
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:59,479
is going to get you to the finish line. But

1554
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:01,479
we pretty come up and having a chat with us.

1555
01:15:02,319 --> 01:15:05,520
It's definitely intriguing to hear people from different religions talk

1556
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:07,640
about the religion least as interesting to me. So I

1557
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,079
appreciate that, but we've got to we've got to move

1558
01:15:10,119 --> 01:15:10,960
on to our last caller.

1559
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I wonder what he believes about dementia. You know,

1560
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:22,359
my grandma died with dementia and lost her mind slowly

1561
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,800
over the course of years as she did, So I wonder, like,

1562
01:15:26,319 --> 01:15:31,000
did just part of the fundamental of reality leave her

1563
01:15:31,279 --> 01:15:33,920
from piece to piece? Was her receptor breaking?

1564
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 4: Was away?

1565
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,279
Speaker 2: Like, how do you swear that circle? And you're talking

1566
01:15:37,319 --> 01:15:39,319
about stuff like that? I don't know it just it's rough.

1567
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:40,479
That is a tough one.

1568
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:44,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring in Robin, and Robin looks like

1569
01:15:44,359 --> 01:15:48,640
an atheist. But has I think an interesting question? Robin says,

1570
01:15:49,039 --> 01:15:53,560
Color's family claims that the spark of life at conception

1571
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:56,159
is visible in proof of a soul.

1572
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:57,319
Speaker 2: That's news to me.

1573
01:15:57,720 --> 01:15:58,399
Speaker 8: Yeah, so.

1574
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 1: Forest probably has a lot to say about this. But

1575
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:04,399
before we get started, Robin, can you hear me?

1576
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, thank you for waiting for so long. You've

1577
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,439
been online for an hour and forty two minutes. Jesus

1578
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:14,000
a big w It's okay, I've been doing hell yeah,

1579
01:16:14,359 --> 01:16:14,800
hell yeah.

1580
01:16:15,079 --> 01:16:17,760
Speaker 1: So Robin. I'm familiar with the claim that you're referring

1581
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:20,359
to the sparkle life claim because it made huge news

1582
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,199
in like Christian circles, And as far as I can tell,

1583
01:16:24,279 --> 01:16:27,960
there's there's two problems. One is they for the first study,

1584
01:16:28,159 --> 01:16:31,600
the original study was on mice, which means if it's

1585
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,760
some sort of sign of a soul like entering at inception,

1586
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,159
then it's weird that mice have souls the same way

1587
01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:41,119
humans do. But the real problem is just that they

1588
01:16:41,159 --> 01:16:44,199
don't understand the study. So what they did for the

1589
01:16:44,279 --> 01:16:47,560
study is they're doing a chemical analysis of what happens

1590
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,800
when the egg gets fertilized, and in order to do that,

1591
01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:55,039
they need to bombard it with with how do you

1592
01:16:55,119 --> 01:16:58,600
call it, like flora and eight flora? What's the word

1593
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,760
I'm looking for for for the there's a type of

1594
01:17:02,159 --> 01:17:06,159
optical device where you bombard something with fluorescence so that

1595
01:17:06,359 --> 01:17:11,760
you can detect particular chemicals that are only detectable when

1596
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:14,960
they're under heavy fluoressince lights. I forget the name of

1597
01:17:15,079 --> 01:17:21,680
the device. There's a name for it, very scientific, long

1598
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,920
sounding name for it. But basically what they did is

1599
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:30,720
they use a device that bombards the fertilized egg with fluorescence,

1600
01:17:31,039 --> 01:17:34,439
and then the fluorescence allows them to see particular chemicals

1601
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:36,560
that you wouldn't normally be able to see. Right, in

1602
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:40,000
this particular case, it just detected zinc. It turns out

1603
01:17:40,199 --> 01:17:43,479
that when an egg gets fertilized by a sperm, there's

1604
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,319
a zinc reaction and zinc just happens to be visible

1605
01:17:48,199 --> 01:17:51,479
under a heavy amount of fluorescence. Right, And that's all

1606
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,079
that is, right. But the way that Christians were like

1607
01:17:55,319 --> 01:18:01,159
spinning the study was that like under no outside influence, right,

1608
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:04,000
whenever you just if you have it in a microscope

1609
01:18:04,039 --> 01:18:06,439
and you just looked at a sperm fertilizing an egg,

1610
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,760
you would just see light being emitted. But that's not

1611
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,680
the case. Actually, what happens is the light bounces. The

1612
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,000
light reflects off of zinc rather than being absorbed, so

1613
01:18:17,159 --> 01:18:19,279
it shows up like a spark of light when you

1614
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:19,920
observe it.

1615
01:18:20,079 --> 01:18:20,199
Speaker 5: Right.

1616
01:18:21,359 --> 01:18:25,039
Speaker 1: Anyways, that's my understanding of the study and my understanding

1617
01:18:25,159 --> 01:18:29,520
of what Christians are getting wrong about the study. But like,

1618
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:34,920
the article is available for the original it's on the PubMed.

1619
01:18:35,239 --> 01:18:37,880
The name of the article is zinc sparks are triggered

1620
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:43,000
by fertilization and facilitate cell cycle resumption in mam million eggs.

1621
01:18:43,279 --> 01:18:45,960
This was the twenty eleven study on mice and it

1622
01:18:46,079 --> 01:18:49,039
talks about how they did it, what instruments they did,

1623
01:18:49,079 --> 01:18:50,039
and what the results were.

1624
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 2: I have another study here. This one is from scientific

1625
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:56,479
reports from Nature Research the fertilization induced zinc spark as

1626
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:59,920
a novel biomarker of mouse embryo quality and early development.

1627
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,359
Just reading a bit from the abstract, here, upon activation,

1628
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,520
mammalian eggs release billions of zinc ions and an exo

1629
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:11,680
exoccyitotic event that means coming out of the cell, termed

1630
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,760
the zinc spark. The zinc spark is dependent on and

1631
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:19,960
occurs coordinately with intercellular calcium transients, which are tightly associated

1632
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,520
with embryonic development. Thus, we hypothesize the zinc spark represents

1633
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:27,560
an early extracellular physiochemical marker and the developmental of the

1634
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:30,760
developmental potential of the zygote. To test a psypothesis, we

1635
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,720
monitor thes blah blah blah blah blah, and they say,

1636
01:19:35,239 --> 01:19:37,600
let me see here. I'm seeing if they actually put

1637
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,159
a conclusion here. Zinc sparks can thus serve as an

1638
01:19:40,159 --> 01:19:42,800
early biomarker of zygote quality. So the idea in this

1639
01:19:43,079 --> 01:19:46,439
thing is that these biomarkers are present and they kind

1640
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:50,199
of show that maybe this particular embryo will survive, and

1641
01:19:50,359 --> 01:19:53,479
that's maybe what somebody wants to try to stretch to.

1642
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,199
I don't know, but yeah, I think you summarize it

1643
01:19:57,239 --> 01:19:59,239
pretty well though. It is just it was a study

1644
01:19:59,319 --> 01:20:01,439
in mice that it was the big discovery where they

1645
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,439
found that there was this little flash of zinc. And

1646
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,560
if you want to understand what that is, if you

1647
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:10,039
ever hit a flint and steel to make a spark,

1648
01:20:10,079 --> 01:20:13,279
it's the exact same thing what you're doing. When you

1649
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,960
hit flint and steel together. You're not actually knocking bits

1650
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:18,439
of the flint off, you're knocking tiny, tiny atoms of

1651
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,920
steel off. You're knocking little bits of that steel. And

1652
01:20:22,399 --> 01:20:25,439
when the steel is now oxidized, is this bit of

1653
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:28,720
raw steel comes into contact with the air, oxygen binds

1654
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:30,960
to it, that creates a spark. It's an exothermic reaction,

1655
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:33,640
and so that's what we're seeing. We have a little

1656
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:36,760
bits of zinc out and that is now causing a

1657
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:38,680
little spark. For whatever reason it is. I don't know

1658
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:40,760
if it's oxidation or not, but it's the same basic concept.

1659
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,279
It's just this release of a metal that is now

1660
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:45,760
doing a thing that's emitting a tiny bit of light

1661
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,159
in these particular conditions. I don't know if that's all

1662
01:20:48,239 --> 01:20:51,520
the time or just when they're using whatever magical zinc

1663
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:53,640
ray they were using in that particular setup.

1664
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:56,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot.

1665
01:20:56,319 --> 01:20:59,079
Speaker 8: More sense than what they were telling me. See, my

1666
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:04,159
aunt uncle they both breed horses, and ever since figuring

1667
01:21:04,239 --> 01:21:07,760
out that I'm atheist, they've been trying to feed me

1668
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:12,880
little fact to convert back to Christianity, and that was

1669
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,319
one of the things they were They were claiming that

1670
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:19,880
while breeding horses that they themselves can see this spark

1671
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,560
of light and that that's evidence of the soul and

1672
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:27,760
if they could, nah, they can souls in us. And yeah,

1673
01:21:28,079 --> 01:21:29,880
I was just really confused, but I didn't know what

1674
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,800
to say. And that was like the first time they've

1675
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,039
ever stumped me. So they got their one gotcha moment

1676
01:21:35,079 --> 01:21:37,680
in the past like ten years that I've been atheist.

1677
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I even if this was something that was

1678
01:21:42,039 --> 01:21:44,560
somehow like, first of all, no, this is not a

1679
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,720
visible thing outside of the horse, Like you're not going

1680
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:49,439
to see that that doesn't make any sense. But like,

1681
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:54,960
even if there was a consistent, persistent every time in

1682
01:21:55,079 --> 01:21:58,119
egg is fertilized, there's this marvelous flash of light and

1683
01:21:58,199 --> 01:22:00,760
we don't know where it comes from. The idea that

1684
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:03,880
you would then build the bridge to this is magic

1685
01:22:04,039 --> 01:22:07,520
is pretty wild. There's so many implications. And number one,

1686
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:11,079
I just learned that horses have souls. That's neat. Number two,

1687
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:14,720
what about things that don't reproduce this way? What about

1688
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:17,439
asexual organisms? Are you telling me that you know something

1689
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,640
that does cell division just goes through that doesn't have

1690
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,920
a soul because it doesn't have a fertilization point. Is

1691
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,159
there not a spark of light there? Like, what's going on?

1692
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:29,000
What about other things that cause sparks of light? What

1693
01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:31,199
makes this spark of light different than that spark of light?

1694
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:36,039
Like it's just like question begging. That's not really right term.

1695
01:22:36,079 --> 01:22:39,279
It's just it's just a massive assumption. It's taking something

1696
01:22:39,319 --> 01:22:43,039
you don't understand and assuming that it's some big, crazy thing,

1697
01:22:43,199 --> 01:22:46,439
when in reality it's it's remarkably mundane. It's just a

1698
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:48,760
neat thing that happens that we didn't know before. And

1699
01:22:49,279 --> 01:22:52,319
it is what is usual is creationists take a neat

1700
01:22:52,359 --> 01:22:54,800
thing that we didn't know before and try like hell

1701
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:56,159
to cram that into their dog.

1702
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:00,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, pretty much. We got as far as going to

1703
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:05,399
They said that, well, basically, only animals that.

1704
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,039
Speaker 4: Conceive this way have souls.

1705
01:23:08,079 --> 01:23:10,199
Speaker 8: And then I was like, well, what do you define

1706
01:23:10,239 --> 01:23:13,039
as a soul? Because I get a different answer from everyone.

1707
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:16,000
The most intriguing answer I ever got was from my

1708
01:23:16,199 --> 01:23:20,560
pagan roommate, But all my Christian family members just say that,

1709
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,720
like pretty much, that their soul is consciousness.

1710
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 2: Well, then there you go. Is that tells us that

1711
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,680
number one, if all animals that conceive this way have souls,

1712
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:31,960
then the only thing we have proven thus far is

1713
01:23:32,039 --> 01:23:34,479
that mice have souls. So I hope that these people

1714
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:36,960
take away all their mousetraps because those are souls that

1715
01:23:37,039 --> 01:23:40,199
they're hurting, especially the sticky ones. Those are just inhumane.

1716
01:23:41,039 --> 01:23:45,079
And that for what the fuck are the implications of that.

1717
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,079
Second of all, if this is what we're saying, that

1718
01:23:48,239 --> 01:23:51,399
souls are linked to consciousness, way more animals than just

1719
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:53,600
mice got that going on. Let me tell you we

1720
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:57,159
have evidence of consciousness in tons of things that you

1721
01:23:57,279 --> 01:23:59,399
don't want to have souls or to deal with the

1722
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:03,039
ethnical Olympic gations of having souls. It's it's no no

1723
01:24:03,279 --> 01:24:04,760
for a lot of reasons.

1724
01:24:05,039 --> 01:24:06,159
Speaker 10: For a lot of ye.

1725
01:24:07,119 --> 01:24:10,399
Speaker 1: So I'll say one last thing. The the when you're

1726
01:24:10,399 --> 01:24:12,439
searching searching for this internet, because you're gonna want to

1727
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:15,000
find this on the internet, most likely to talk to

1728
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:19,399
your family. The process, which I couldn't pronounce, is called

1729
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:23,520
fluorescent microscopy, which is an absolute mouth mouth.

1730
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:27,079
Speaker 2: I didn't know that's what you're talking. That's all it is. Okay, Yeah,

1731
01:24:27,279 --> 01:24:28,640
we use that all the time for stuff for a

1732
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:32,399
bunch off, okay, cool, Yeah, I very knew what it was. Like,

1733
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:34,319
I didn't know that's where we're talking at you. You

1734
01:24:34,359 --> 01:24:37,840
were describing fluorescentce. I'm like, uh huh, and like as

1735
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:40,439
this device that like sees these things. It all makes

1736
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:43,119
sense now you explained it perfectly, and I'm incredibly stupid.

1737
01:24:43,199 --> 01:24:43,520
That's all.

1738
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 1: Okay. So that's that's all there was. If you want

1739
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:49,039
to look it up, that's the Those are the buzzwords

1740
01:24:49,079 --> 01:24:49,880
you need to look it up.

1741
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,399
Speaker 8: Okay, thank you, down where I need to go.

1742
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:56,279
Speaker 1: And thank you. Good to hear from you, Robin, take care,

1743
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:58,760
good day, A w.

1744
01:24:58,960 --> 01:24:59,199
Speaker 4: Robin.

1745
01:24:59,239 --> 01:25:01,079
Speaker 1: That didn't take as long as I thought it would.

1746
01:25:01,079 --> 01:25:02,640
We got time for another one. If you want to

1747
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:04,399
take a theist from Kansas.

1748
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's power through one more.

1749
01:25:06,079 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 1: All right, let's grab a theis from Kansas. We've got

1750
01:25:09,039 --> 01:25:12,720
Chris and the que says, we're asking our Old Testament

1751
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:17,800
prophecies circular reasoning. Now, remember we're talking to two atheists,

1752
01:25:18,119 --> 01:25:21,239
which means we're probably going to agree with that statement

1753
01:25:21,319 --> 01:25:23,840
in some fashion. Can you put some more to it?

1754
01:25:24,159 --> 01:25:24,359
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1755
01:25:24,399 --> 01:25:28,319
Speaker 11: Absolutely. So I am reading through a handful of books

1756
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:32,399
looking for a consistent hermeneutic that would be able to

1757
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:37,479
falsify the claim that Jesus fulfills prophecies. And I've been

1758
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:41,520
studying some of my old seminary textbooks actually, and so

1759
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,880
I just finished one today. And so I'm talking about

1760
01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:49,560
Isaiah seven, the Emmanuel verse and the whole of Virgin

1761
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,600
and then Matthew claims it. So it appears to me

1762
01:25:53,039 --> 01:25:56,199
that Matthew claims this as a prophecy. There's nothing in

1763
01:25:56,279 --> 01:25:59,279
the original text contextually, and we always talk about how

1764
01:25:59,319 --> 01:26:02,319
context is important. This author and this textbook says that

1765
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:04,720
earlier in the book, but there is no context to

1766
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,520
make that a prophecy. So Jesus is the Messiah and

1767
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:12,079
God and self savior because he fulfilled prophecies. But the

1768
01:26:12,159 --> 01:26:15,119
prophecies are prophecy because we say their prophecies they're fortunate.

1769
01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:19,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean okay, yeah, Chris, you've quoted me exactly.

1770
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:21,319
I've said those exact words before.

1771
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:23,039
Speaker 11: Oh okay.

1772
01:26:23,319 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: So to be sure, this is the circular part of

1773
01:26:28,119 --> 01:26:31,239
this prophecies about Jesus part right, which is we know

1774
01:26:31,399 --> 01:26:34,319
contextually speaking, that this prophecy was to King a Has

1775
01:26:34,399 --> 01:26:36,399
about a child born during the reign of King a

1776
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:39,039
Has before that child is old enough to know right

1777
01:26:39,119 --> 01:26:41,880
from wrong. The two kings that are attacking the kingdom

1778
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:44,439
of Judah, they're going to be laid waste by the Assyrians. Right,

1779
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,600
So in order to make this about Jesus, you have

1780
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:50,039
to add a new second layer of meaning to it.

1781
01:26:50,079 --> 01:26:52,600
You'll say, well, originally it was referring to this, but

1782
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:56,079
secondarily it was referring to this. But the minute you

1783
01:26:56,239 --> 01:26:59,800
add a secondary interpretation, it becomes circular, right, Because who

1784
01:27:00,279 --> 01:27:03,199
to decide what the secondary meaning is and who gets

1785
01:27:03,279 --> 01:27:06,239
decide which prophecies get two meetings or three meetings or

1786
01:27:06,239 --> 01:27:08,479
four meetings right. So then what the Christian will do

1787
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:11,039
is they'll say, well, Jesus is the Messiah because he

1788
01:27:11,119 --> 01:27:13,319
fulfilled all these prophecies. And when you read the prophecies,

1789
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:15,720
not a single one of them refer to Jesus in

1790
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:19,680
the original context. They all require secondary meanings or some

1791
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,800
type of like not do a fuliment, partial fulfillment, or

1792
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:26,239
some nonsense like that. So then you would ask a Christian, well,

1793
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:30,239
why would I accept these as being prophecies about Jesus

1794
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:33,520
because they're not in the original context. And they would say, well,

1795
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:35,960
because Jesus was the Messiah. And now you've got an

1796
01:27:36,119 --> 01:27:39,880
entire circle. Right, These prophecies that aren't prophecies about Jesus

1797
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:43,359
are their prophecies because the messiahs said So, why is

1798
01:27:43,399 --> 01:27:45,960
he a prophecy because he fulfilled these prophecies? Or why

1799
01:27:46,039 --> 01:27:48,079
is he the messiah because he fulfilled the prophecies about

1800
01:27:48,079 --> 01:27:50,800
the Messiah? So I think you've nailed at Chris. It's

1801
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:52,199
entirely circular argument.

1802
01:27:52,399 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I mentioned that earlier on the show and did

1803
01:27:55,039 --> 01:27:55,920
a much worse job.

1804
01:27:56,680 --> 01:27:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was great.

1805
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:58,640
Speaker 2: That's why you were gone.

1806
01:28:00,079 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 5: Have given good.

1807
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 11: Content kind of trying to prop this up and fight

1808
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:04,880
you on it. See I see if you can help

1809
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,079
me knock down. So here are the potential explanations that

1810
01:28:08,199 --> 01:28:11,880
the author gives for why Isaiah seven fourteen could legitimately

1811
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:15,279
be interpreted this way. The first one is that it's wrong,

1812
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:17,600
which obviously he's going to say is that's not a

1813
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,159
valid claim. The second one is that the Holy Spirit

1814
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:23,439
kind of flipped us in. And most Christians will talk

1815
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:25,840
about a dual authorship, right, and however you want to

1816
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,039
define that God helping humans or the cooperating or dictation

1817
01:28:29,159 --> 01:28:32,079
or whatever. So couldn't you say, okay, well, within God's

1818
01:28:32,159 --> 01:28:35,840
divine authorship there is an authorial intent pointing towards a

1819
01:28:36,319 --> 01:28:37,479
Messiah figure, right.

1820
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:39,199
Speaker 1: And I think the problem with that type of a

1821
01:28:39,279 --> 01:28:42,800
hermeneutic is now you're still starting with the conclusion. The

1822
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,720
conclusion is that the Holy Spirit has hidden something within

1823
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,000
these prophecies that you wouldn't know just by reading them.

1824
01:28:50,279 --> 01:28:53,520
So now God is being deceptive. And in Deuteron the eighteen,

1825
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,960
God tells you that you can determine if a prophecy

1826
01:28:57,159 --> 01:28:59,319
is coming from God and whether or not you need

1827
01:28:59,399 --> 01:29:02,399
to kill or not kill that prophet by determining if,

1828
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,039
in fact, the words of the prophets come true, right,

1829
01:29:05,079 --> 01:29:07,279
which means at some point you have to know that

1830
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:11,119
the prophecy is being spoken as a prophecy. It can't

1831
01:29:11,159 --> 01:29:14,680
be some secret that people hundreds and hundreds of years

1832
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:18,279
later would just stumble upon and be like, oh, interesting,

1833
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:20,880
that sounds like something else. It must be a prophecy, right.

1834
01:29:21,119 --> 01:29:22,960
That doesn't seem to line up with the God of

1835
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,960
the Old Testament. Nobody, like no reasonable Jewish person would

1836
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:30,039
accept that as an interpretation for these prophecies. The only

1837
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:32,600
people that would accept that are people who already are

1838
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:36,359
at the conclusion that Jesus must be the Messiah. Then

1839
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:38,880
you work yourself backwards. It's a sharpshooter fallacy.

1840
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:42,560
Speaker 11: I wish I could fight you more on this, man,

1841
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:45,159
but like I can't argue, I can't find ways to

1842
01:29:45,239 --> 01:29:47,439
poke hole in your arguments. It's so frustrating.

1843
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:49,720
Speaker 2: Man, Let me show you.

1844
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:52,159
Speaker 1: Let me show you one thing. I got a copy

1845
01:29:52,199 --> 01:29:55,319
of the Dead Sea Scrolls in English, and they do

1846
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:58,359
something really interesting in the Dead Sea Scrolls where like

1847
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:00,640
a number of the prophecies of the Old Testament don't

1848
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,079
really kind of come true, or they come true, but

1849
01:30:03,319 --> 01:30:05,479
like not all all the way, and so what they

1850
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,600
do is they just go in and they reinterpret them right,

1851
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:13,560
and hopefully this, you know, the secondary interpretation doesn't fail.

1852
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 7: Right.

1853
01:30:14,159 --> 01:30:16,600
Speaker 1: So if you go to like the this is the

1854
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:20,079
Habit Cook pressure. Pressure is a Hebrew word for like

1855
01:30:20,159 --> 01:30:23,800
a like a reteaching or an interpretation. So in the

1856
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:26,399
Habit Cook Pressure we've got a line from Habit Cooke.

1857
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:29,840
One it says, for I am now about to raise

1858
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:33,119
up the Chowdeans, that reckless people. Well, we know who

1859
01:30:33,159 --> 01:30:37,039
the Chowdeans are. The Chowdeans are, in fact the Babylonians, right.

1860
01:30:37,279 --> 01:30:41,319
But since this prophecy didn't didn't have any impact on

1861
01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:43,000
what was happening at the time of the Dead Sea,

1862
01:30:43,079 --> 01:30:45,720
they added their own layer of meaning. They said, this

1863
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:48,960
refers to the Katam, who are swift and mighty in war,

1864
01:30:49,079 --> 01:30:52,600
annihilating many people. And then they give a whole interpretation

1865
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:56,239
of this completely disconnection from the context. And of course

1866
01:30:56,319 --> 01:31:01,039
the prophecy failed because this secondary interpretation proved to not

1867
01:31:01,159 --> 01:31:03,840
be true as well. Right, the only difference between what

1868
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:05,960
they were doing at the Dead Sea and what the

1869
01:31:06,079 --> 01:31:08,720
Christians were doing is at the Dead Sea they were

1870
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:12,520
reinterpreting the prophecies and still giving some sort of future

1871
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:14,680
prediction with it, and we can see that the future

1872
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,359
predictions fail. The Christians didn't do that. The Christians took

1873
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:21,439
the story of Jesus, didn't make any predictions about the

1874
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:23,279
future until you get like, there's a book of revelation

1875
01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:26,239
in his second coming, and then retro fitted it to

1876
01:31:26,399 --> 01:31:30,039
alternative meanings from the prophets, which is why it could

1877
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:32,640
stick long enough, right, because the part that didn't come

1878
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:35,640
true is the part that he's just he's going to

1879
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:38,439
come back, and people are willing to just wait forever.

1880
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:40,800
And if that's the only part that you predicted, that

1881
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:42,600
he's going to come back and do a bunch of stuff,

1882
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:44,520
people will wait on that all the time. We've seen

1883
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,680
all kinds of religious cults that will wait forever and

1884
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,039
ever on some kind of a coming of something that

1885
01:31:49,119 --> 01:31:51,720
are never going to be coming. But that's where the

1886
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:55,960
reinterpretation by the Christians fail, because the Christian interpretation of

1887
01:31:56,039 --> 01:31:59,319
these prophecies, based on Jesus's own teaching and Paul's teaching,

1888
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:02,840
was that jesus second Coming the ultimate fulfillment of all

1889
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:05,079
of the final prophecies. What's going to happen within a

1890
01:32:05,239 --> 01:32:07,119
generation of the people still living as we see in

1891
01:32:07,159 --> 01:32:10,159
Matthew sixteen, twenty seven, twenty eight, Matthew twenty four, Matthew ten,

1892
01:32:10,239 --> 01:32:11,600
twenty three, and elsewhere.

1893
01:32:12,239 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 11: Yeah, okay, okay, I'll keep digging.

1894
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 7: Man.

1895
01:32:17,079 --> 01:32:20,199
Speaker 11: Maybe I'll pomp on your show sometime and ask ask

1896
01:32:20,279 --> 01:32:22,720
some follow ups. I know we're towards the end of

1897
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,119
the show. I did have a question for for us

1898
01:32:25,159 --> 01:32:27,199
about trans issues. We've got time for it.

1899
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:28,680
Speaker 10: Not I'll call in another time.

1900
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 2: We can make it super fast and then yeah, I'll

1901
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:31,560
try what's your question?

1902
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:35,640
Speaker 11: Okay, okay, yeah, So is gender is gender? Would you

1903
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:38,279
say gender is rooted in sex or are they?

1904
01:32:38,319 --> 01:32:40,560
Speaker 2: I would say that it's how would you connect them?

1905
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:43,560
I would say that it's associated with sex, but fundamentally

1906
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:44,119
different things.

1907
01:32:44,319 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay.

1908
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:48,359
Speaker 11: It's very strange as a Christian too. I mean, we

1909
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:51,079
all we're all against trans issues because we're religious, like

1910
01:32:51,159 --> 01:32:54,880
that's how this works, right, And so to potentially cast

1911
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:57,399
aside the religious piece, I'm left with the question of

1912
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:00,399
do I even care about this stuff or or even

1913
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:01,279
thinking through it.

1914
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:05,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say if I were you, if I

1915
01:33:05,439 --> 01:33:07,680
was in your position, I was coming from a Christian framework,

1916
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,520
and I look at sex and gender, and I look

1917
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:12,680
at trans people and I say, okay, well, this is Liarally,

1918
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:14,680
this doesn't line up with a Bible where the Bible

1919
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:18,600
clearly says that God made man and woman and only

1920
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,960
man and woman, and in this verse it says you

1921
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:22,319
made him at the same time and in this first

1922
01:33:22,319 --> 01:33:24,560
set of maybe totally, but it doesn't matter because it's

1923
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:26,600
only man and women, right, blah blah blah blah blah.

1924
01:33:27,319 --> 01:33:29,720
I would treat that the same way that you would

1925
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,920
treat the fact that the Bible also gets the origin

1926
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:35,479
of the earth wrong. It gets the origin of life wrong,

1927
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:38,199
it gets the evil, It gets concepts of evolution wrong.

1928
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:41,039
It says that snakes can talk, It says that donkeys

1929
01:33:41,079 --> 01:33:43,399
can talk. It says that sometimes trees can talk. It

1930
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:46,640
says all these different things about like just batshit. It

1931
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,880
says that that grasshoppers have four legs. It says that

1932
01:33:50,039 --> 01:33:54,199
bats are birds, it says that the it says the

1933
01:33:54,279 --> 01:33:56,960
pie is equal to three. So the Bible is wrong

1934
01:33:56,960 --> 01:33:59,479
about a lot of shit in science, right, And so

1935
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:03,560
you who now can decide as a Christian, do you

1936
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,880
do what most like what the Catholics do and say, Okay,

1937
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,119
the Bible is a book of regional stories that teach

1938
01:34:11,239 --> 01:34:14,479
moral lessons, and the only one that's true for fucking

1939
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:17,319
sure is this whole thing about Jesus and even that

1940
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:19,800
we need to really study and interpret and make sense

1941
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,319
of it. Or do you do what the babdocostal folks

1942
01:34:23,399 --> 01:34:25,520
do and say, no, every single word of this is

1943
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:28,800
absolutely actually true. And now I have not just one

1944
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,119
thing that I don't understand, but just a shitload of

1945
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:33,720
things that I don't understand. Like, or you can do

1946
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:35,119
what I think is the best thing, which just to

1947
01:34:35,359 --> 01:34:39,079
really analyze whether or not there's evidence or reasonably eve

1948
01:34:39,119 --> 01:34:41,039
in any of this stuff and then decide, all right, hey,

1949
01:34:41,359 --> 01:34:46,399
there is very clearly like actual scientific backing for our

1950
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:48,880
understanding of sex and gender. And this is not a

1951
01:34:49,039 --> 01:34:52,000
new idea. This idea is like one hundred years old

1952
01:34:52,279 --> 01:34:55,600
and is just like other useful models, is being proven

1953
01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:57,880
right over and over and over. And on the other side,

1954
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:02,199
I've got this Bronze Age sex Slavery manual that says

1955
01:35:02,279 --> 01:35:05,079
that sometimes don keys can speak. Here, maybe I need

1956
01:35:05,159 --> 01:35:07,680
to take a step back and decide whether or not

1957
01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:10,159
it's actually important whether or not the things that I

1958
01:35:10,239 --> 01:35:12,880
believe are true and if it isn't, then I can

1959
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:14,680
just stop complaining about any of this because I can

1960
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:16,359
just decide to believe whatever I want to believe. But

1961
01:35:16,479 --> 01:35:18,640
if it is important to me that the things that

1962
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,000
I believe are actually true, then maybe I can put

1963
01:35:21,079 --> 01:35:24,560
down this Bible and start focusing on reality a bit.

1964
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:26,239
That's what I would say in this situation.

1965
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 11: When you talk about gender being on a spectrum, is

1966
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:34,760
that spectrum from masculine presenting to feminine presenting? Do just

1967
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,319
like the animalist and animalistic? I identify as a cat.

1968
01:35:38,399 --> 01:35:40,680
And I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I just again,

1969
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:42,920
I lumped this all in a box and I threw

1970
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,079
out the window and didn't think about it. So when

1971
01:35:45,119 --> 01:35:48,119
you talk about the spectrum from a scientific perspective, are

1972
01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:50,600
we only talking about masculine too feminine? Or do you

1973
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:52,640
include all that other stuff too scientific?

1974
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:55,039
Speaker 2: So when you say, just to be clear, it does

1975
01:35:55,159 --> 01:35:58,640
include other stuff, all that other stuff is not cat

1976
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:04,279
and things. So the conflation of being trans with thinking

1977
01:36:04,359 --> 01:36:06,479
that you're a cat or a dog or whatever like

1978
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:10,680
that's it is the same kind of just bullshit as

1979
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:14,039
when we were talking about homosexuality a decade ago and

1980
01:36:14,199 --> 01:36:16,199
Christians were saying, well, if you can fuck a man,

1981
01:36:16,239 --> 01:36:18,760
why don't you fuck a horse, and all the equating

1982
01:36:18,800 --> 01:36:22,239
homosexuality to beast reality. It's not really part of the

1983
01:36:22,279 --> 01:36:25,119
conversation for people to take this seriously. It is just

1984
01:36:25,199 --> 01:36:28,319
a strong way when we talk about the spectrum of gender.

1985
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:30,760
What we're talking about is the fact that gender is

1986
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:36,239
definitionally a social construct. Therefore, by definition, because it is

1987
01:36:36,319 --> 01:36:39,399
something that is socially constructed, and because it is something

1988
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:44,039
that we can demonstrate factually changes from culture to culture,

1989
01:36:44,079 --> 01:36:46,880
from person to person, from generation to generation, from day

1990
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:50,800
to day. Because of that, it is definitionally spectral. It

1991
01:36:51,079 --> 01:36:56,600
cannot have hard, set fast, serious limits with necessary conditions

1992
01:36:56,640 --> 01:36:59,399
for each of these individual boxes. If it is something

1993
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:01,479
that is social constructed in this way, and something that

1994
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:05,600
we see is very dynamic and fluid across cultural contexts,

1995
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:08,359
and so that's what we're talking about. We're not just saying,

1996
01:37:08,399 --> 01:37:11,920
here's this masculine and feminine side, because even the concepts

1997
01:37:11,960 --> 01:37:16,239
of masculinity and femininity are themselves socially constructed and therefore

1998
01:37:16,359 --> 01:37:21,039
are also fluid and spectral. Is a diverse rainbow of

1999
01:37:21,159 --> 01:37:24,119
different presentations. A great way to think about it when

2000
01:37:24,159 --> 01:37:26,600
you think spectrum. You may think of like a color

2001
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:29,239
spectrum right where it goes from red to blue. Say,

2002
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,560
don't think about that as a linear spectrum. Think about

2003
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:34,359
one of those when you pick a color on like

2004
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:36,760
a in Microsoft paint or something, and it gives you

2005
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,600
the circle and it has all the rainbow all over

2006
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,359
that whole circle, and you get a multidimensional thing where

2007
01:37:42,359 --> 01:37:44,680
it's not just a straight line. Think about it that way.

2008
01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:47,039
You have a lot of different ways that you can

2009
01:37:47,079 --> 01:37:50,039
interpret this, this whole concept of gender. It's a wide

2010
01:37:50,399 --> 01:37:53,159
rage of different things with lots of different factors going

2011
01:37:53,199 --> 01:37:55,880
into it. It's not just two poles, and you find

2012
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:57,039
your place somewhere in between it.

2013
01:37:57,279 --> 01:38:00,520
Speaker 11: Sure would you say that the experience of gender all

2014
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:04,279
the way along that spectrum is fundamentally rooted in our

2015
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:07,039
brain activity and our brain waves. And so just as

2016
01:38:08,159 --> 01:38:11,000
on the topic of sex, you can have a variety

2017
01:38:11,319 --> 01:38:14,880
of conditions that go with you know, phenotypically and genetically

2018
01:38:15,319 --> 01:38:18,439
x y, you know typically genetically xx, and then all

2019
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:20,840
the other stuff in the middle. That gender then is

2020
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:25,159
an experience of the brain. And then that experience again

2021
01:38:25,279 --> 01:38:27,960
is just rooted in that same kind of materialism or

2022
01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:29,359
like physiology.

2023
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,680
Speaker 2: I mean fundamentally, yes, everything you experience is rooted in

2024
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:34,720
materialism and physiology, so that that is not unique to

2025
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,520
gender in terms of like where gender comes from, if

2026
01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:44,079
that is purely neurological, as purely neurobiological, or purely neurochemical

2027
01:38:44,399 --> 01:38:47,640
or purely psychological, I'm not sure there is evidence for

2028
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:51,359
a neurobiological component to it. But it's kind of like

2029
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,279
sexuality in this way where it's like, yeah, we have

2030
01:38:54,399 --> 01:38:57,199
evidence for this in this component, but fundamentally we're still

2031
01:38:57,239 --> 01:38:58,760
learning a lot about where it comes from and what

2032
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:00,840
it does and how it behaves. All we know is

2033
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:03,640
that it is a thing that we experience and it

2034
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:06,000
is not binary those thing Those are the things that

2035
01:39:06,079 --> 01:39:09,359
we know, just like I think you know being trans

2036
01:39:09,399 --> 01:39:12,159
and being homosexual or whatever, like these are different concepts,

2037
01:39:12,199 --> 01:39:15,319
but like you can use sexuality as an analog for

2038
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:18,119
gender in this way in that in the exact same

2039
01:39:18,199 --> 01:39:22,520
way that sexuality is a massive and diverse spectrum, and

2040
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,640
it is really really because it is so deeply personal,

2041
01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:31,600
it is very difficult, difficult to really nail down any

2042
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:36,039
one label for someone's individual sexuality that can then be

2043
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:40,319
easily applied to even one other person. Let alone scores

2044
01:39:40,359 --> 01:39:42,920
of other people. Same thing really goes for gender. You

2045
01:39:43,039 --> 01:39:46,399
and I. I can say that I'm a sisman. You

2046
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:50,520
probably are too. I'm assuming, but I guarantee, even though

2047
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:52,960
we are both men, right, even though we are both

2048
01:39:53,039 --> 01:39:58,039
of this masculine gender and this masculine presentation, fundamental different ideas.

2049
01:39:58,239 --> 01:40:01,479
I guarantee about what it means to be a man

2050
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,239
and what that actually looks like and feels like and

2051
01:40:04,359 --> 01:40:06,239
acts like, and how that should be presented in the world.

2052
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:08,199
So that's what I would encourage you. If you want

2053
01:40:08,199 --> 01:40:11,640
to learn about gender, start by exploring your own. Sit

2054
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:15,399
down and really analyze. Ask for yourself, what do I

2055
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:18,079
mean when I say that I'm a man? What do

2056
01:40:18,199 --> 01:40:20,600
I mean when I talk about it, like when I

2057
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:25,800
talk about my masculinity? What actually challenges my masculinity if anything?

2058
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,359
What makes me feel more like a man or less

2059
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:31,479
like a man, if that's even possible? Read up on

2060
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:34,880
there's a lot of really good psychological research about how

2061
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:39,760
masculinity specifically is precarious and needs to be maintained through

2062
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:42,039
performance in our culture. Read up on some of that,

2063
01:40:42,159 --> 01:40:44,960
Think about some of that. Wonder why it is why

2064
01:40:45,119 --> 01:40:50,079
so many big, buff, manly dudes get really really scared

2065
01:40:50,159 --> 01:40:53,079
of fingernail polish and shit, and like the idea that

2066
01:40:53,119 --> 01:40:55,680
they might be caught in addressed someday, like what does

2067
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:58,720
that actually mean? And do you agree with these things?

2068
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:00,600
And do you feel the same way, And when you

2069
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:04,279
sit down to actually study your own gender, you might

2070
01:41:04,399 --> 01:41:06,279
have a better time looking at other people that and

2071
01:41:06,319 --> 01:41:10,720
saying okay. So they just differ from me in these concepts,

2072
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,640
in these funds, and I differ from many other cisgender

2073
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:19,039
men in these concepts. We live in a bizarrely heteronormative

2074
01:41:19,079 --> 01:41:20,920
society and a lot of people don't take the time

2075
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:23,520
to explore their own gender and their own sexuality. If

2076
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:25,880
you do, I think it would elucidate a lot of

2077
01:41:25,960 --> 01:41:28,720
these things, a lot of these things about what gender

2078
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:30,680
is and how it operates, and then you can start

2079
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:32,920
applying that model to other people as well and start

2080
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:33,840
learning a little bit about that.

2081
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:35,920
Speaker 11: Well, even when I was more deeply rooted in the

2082
01:41:36,039 --> 01:41:40,079
fundamental fundamentalist evangelical world, I still kind of had these

2083
01:41:40,159 --> 01:41:42,119
quiet thoughts of, you know, I had to keep the

2084
01:41:42,199 --> 01:41:45,520
binary because that's what my book says. But I always

2085
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:47,680
had this ton of like, you just have effeminine men

2086
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:50,760
and more masculine women, and like the boxes around those

2087
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,000
two things are just bigger than we pretend they are, like.

2088
01:41:53,079 --> 01:41:56,760
Speaker 2: You just have you know, it's and isn't it funny?

2089
01:41:57,279 --> 01:41:59,880
Isn't it funny that the same the same hateful ass

2090
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:03,039
who will tell you you're not a real man because

2091
01:42:03,079 --> 01:42:05,159
you're gay, or because you like to paint your fingernails,

2092
01:42:05,199 --> 01:42:06,760
or because you listen to certain music or drink a

2093
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:09,840
fruity cocktail, are the same assholes who well, they'll tell

2094
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:12,600
a trans woman that you can never change the fact

2095
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:14,760
that you're a man, because you'll always be a man.

2096
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:18,720
For it's just it makes no sense. It never has

2097
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:21,600
made any sense, it never will make any sense. It's

2098
01:42:22,079 --> 01:42:26,840
just the dying gasps of an outdated sexist ideology. And

2099
01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:30,159
just like every other time, when we talked about sexuality,

2100
01:42:30,199 --> 01:42:33,319
it was the same thing. When we talked about you know, race,

2101
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:36,079
it was the same thing. Who's a real human? When

2102
01:42:36,119 --> 01:42:39,319
we talked about civilization, it was the same thing. It's

2103
01:42:39,439 --> 01:42:42,920
it's just people in power, people who have control, people

2104
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:45,720
who have authority, who want everything to fit into their

2105
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:49,600
boxes because differences are scary and challenge their authority because

2106
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:52,119
if you, if there are different ways to be a human,

2107
01:42:52,399 --> 01:42:55,199
then they can't control the narrative anymore. So I just

2108
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:57,199
that's where I would take that. But with that, we

2109
01:42:57,319 --> 01:42:59,960
are now half an hour overtime and I've got an

2110
01:43:00,039 --> 01:43:01,439
other show after this, so I've got to I've got

2111
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:02,039
to get out of here.

2112
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:04,640
Speaker 1: Chris, thanks for so much for calling and talking with us.

2113
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:07,560
Speaker 11: Yep, absolutely thinking about something.

2114
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 1: Chris is doing some deep thinking on these topics, and

2115
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,680
I'm certain glad that he is. Sounds like he's in

2116
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:14,159
deconstruction territory.

2117
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:17,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's awesome, and like that's that's the cool thing

2118
01:43:17,119 --> 01:43:19,399
about this stuff is that like there's there really just

2119
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:22,319
is so much to learn, and especially with with gender.

2120
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:24,239
Like I said that the concept that sex and gender

2121
01:43:24,279 --> 01:43:26,159
are different things and that neither one is a strict

2122
01:43:26,199 --> 01:43:28,439
binary and all this this is like a century old.

2123
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:31,399
This is this is old news, but it's still fresh

2124
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:34,840
steam and hot pile of delicious information that like we're

2125
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:36,920
still learning a lot of stuff about There's there's a

2126
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:39,000
ton of questions. We have way more questions that we

2127
01:43:39,079 --> 01:43:42,600
have answers, and this is something is an active field

2128
01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:46,680
of research that is yielding better understandings, more complex more

2129
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:50,479
sophisticated pictures, better models of what the natural world actually

2130
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:52,720
is and what our place is in that natural world,

2131
01:43:53,039 --> 01:43:55,279
and so like, Yeah, there's a lot of questions here,

2132
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:59,159
and they're great questions, and the best researchers in the

2133
01:43:59,359 --> 01:44:02,479
world on these topics also have a lot of questions

2134
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,079
about it. That's what makes it so exciting. So go

2135
01:44:05,239 --> 01:44:07,159
out and dig into it and don't be afraid of it,

2136
01:44:07,399 --> 01:44:09,920
and treat it. I would say, if you're deconstructing on this,

2137
01:44:10,239 --> 01:44:12,760
treat it the same way you treat something like evolution. Yes,

2138
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:14,479
I understand I've been lied to about this for a

2139
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:16,079
long time, and I understand this is something that I

2140
01:44:16,159 --> 01:44:19,399
was taught to ignore because my book says to ignore it. Awesome,

2141
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:21,000
Now I'm in a position where I get to learn

2142
01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:22,920
a lot of cool shit. How lucky am I? I'm

2143
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,479
going to go work on learning. That's great.

2144
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:27,359
Speaker 1: Absolutely couldn't agree more. I think we got three super

2145
01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:30,760
chats and then we're going to close out our first

2146
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:35,159
super chat from Los for forty nine. I have to

2147
01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:37,960
give a disclaimer. This is not an advert for jet

2148
01:44:38,039 --> 01:44:41,399
to Holidays. But our friend Lose says nothing be to

2149
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,960
jet to Holiday and this is apparently an inside joke

2150
01:44:45,279 --> 01:44:48,119
for YouTube. Apparently this is the new advert that is

2151
01:44:48,199 --> 01:44:51,760
in everybody's ear whenever our live streams start. And so

2152
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:54,479
now if you're watching this stream, chances are you've heard

2153
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:56,920
that advert today and congratulation.

2154
01:44:57,720 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 2: It's also it's a joke to me on TikTok, especially

2155
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:02,760
I don't know if it's on YouTube, especially on TikTok.

2156
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:04,920
It's a big thing where like every if you have

2157
01:45:05,079 --> 01:45:09,479
travel footage that's just freaking horrible, just anything breaking and

2158
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:12,640
going horribly wrong. Nothing beats a Jet two holidays like

2159
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:14,840
the thing to put over it. So as I love

2160
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:17,560
every time anything goes wrong, nothing beats a Jet two

2161
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:20,680
holiday sign up now for saw some of them at

2162
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:22,760
all from from for that, that's thirty pounds for a

2163
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:27,439
family of four. Evan Rock sent a dollar in ninety

2164
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:29,600
nine cents. Couldn't afford the extra penny you cheap bastard

2165
01:45:30,399 --> 01:45:34,479
magic sperm equals Jesus, I'm saved. JK Hale, Doug.

2166
01:45:35,039 --> 01:45:38,720
Speaker 1: Fantastic lass money from our friend Patch Grabber. Thank you

2167
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:41,319
for the ten dour Canuckbucks says hey, justin Forrest, I

2168
01:45:41,439 --> 01:45:44,239
love all your stuff. First, if you add up all

2169
01:45:44,279 --> 01:45:47,359
the bad arguments for God, you've heard, could you convert

2170
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,239
that into your first bad day? It may the courts

2171
01:45:50,279 --> 01:45:51,000
be with you both.

2172
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,319
Speaker 2: Nah, It's all about perspective and what a wonderful day

2173
01:45:54,359 --> 01:45:57,239
I've had suffering through all of this shit. So I

2174
01:45:57,319 --> 01:45:59,720
can try to make people think a little bit more rationally.

2175
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:01,520
How lucky am I making.

2176
01:46:01,319 --> 01:46:04,520
Speaker 1: The world a better place? Just sleep easy knowing you're

2177
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:05,640
making the world a better place.

2178
01:46:05,840 --> 01:46:09,000
Speaker 2: Oh man, totally. That's that's that's what this is all about.

2179
01:46:09,159 --> 01:46:10,560
I got to sit here and be an asshole on

2180
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:13,039
the internet because it's making the world better. That's what

2181
01:46:13,159 --> 01:46:13,439
it is.

2182
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:16,760
Speaker 1: Well, first, I had a blast. I know you've got

2183
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:19,000
another commitment to get to. So we're going to close

2184
01:46:19,079 --> 01:46:22,520
out the show our backup and we went longer than

2185
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:24,840
our backup could even go. Our backup had to cut out.

2186
01:46:25,119 --> 01:46:28,319
Thank you so much Ricord Richard for being here because

2187
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:29,479
we needed you.

2188
01:46:30,359 --> 01:46:33,720
Speaker 2: Rickord really come in and he got to come in

2189
01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:37,119
and ask one question. He sat here for two hours,

2190
01:46:37,279 --> 01:46:39,840
so we get to ask one question to somebody who

2191
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:40,720
didn't want to listen.

2192
01:46:41,279 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: And then and then the poor guy leaves and we

2193
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,560
can't even pronounce his name of correctly. I'll do my

2194
01:46:46,680 --> 01:46:49,960
penance later. Thank you so much Richard for being here,

2195
01:46:50,319 --> 01:46:53,359
and thank you forrest, and thank you crew. We'll see

2196
01:46:53,359 --> 01:46:57,439
you again next week, same time, same place, five thirty

2197
01:46:58,199 --> 01:47:06,560
Eastern Time, four thirty full time day. We start Albay,

2198
01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:12,560
stop Pastingay, the balls, amry.

2199
01:47:12,840 --> 01:47:17,000
Speaker 2: Around, watch Talking and live Sundays at one pm Central.

2200
01:47:17,119 --> 01:47:20,039
Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H

2201
01:47:20,159 --> 01:47:22,439
and call into the show at five one two nine

2202
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:25,119
nine one nine two four two. Connect to the show

2203
01:47:25,199 --> 01:47:27,640
online at tiny dot c c hald