WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.920 --> 00:00:04.849 Limerick Park in Los Angeles, California. I'm Tavis Smiley and 2 00:00:04.889 --> 00:00:08.849 I'm so glad to see you and me back in 3 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:19.410 stride again. Before we get started with today's show, let 4 00:00:19.429 --> 00:00:21.390 me invite you to follow me on Facebook and Instagram 5 00:00:21.449 --> 00:00:25.730 at TheRealTavisSmiley and get updates on X, that's formally Twitter, 6 00:00:26.170 --> 00:00:29.010 at Tavis Smiley. By the way, Should you miss any 7 00:00:29.089 --> 00:00:30.910 part of today's program or want to catch up on 8 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:36.829 previous shows, you can always visit TheTavisSmileyShow.com. That's TheTavisSmileyShow.com or 9 00:00:36.869 --> 00:00:39.729 wherever you get your podcast and listen to The Tavis 10 00:00:39.750 --> 00:00:43.490 Smiley Podcast version of this live program at your leisure. 11 00:00:43.850 --> 00:00:46.219 Another great show on tap for you today. In our 12 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:50.740 second hour, two conversations. Up first, Skye Perryman, president and 13 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:55.520 CEO of Democracy Forward and a Time 100 honoree, talks 14 00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:00.229 about her brand-new textbook. Ordinary People, Extraordinary Times, How to 15 00:01:00.270 --> 00:01:05.189 Reclaim Your Power, Fight for Freedom, and Reimagine Democracy. On 16 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:08.579 the B side of our two, America's Loneliness Trap, take 17 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:11.439 a listen to this. One group of people in this 18 00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:17.180 country is more isolated than anyone else. No, it's not men. 19 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:20.909 We'll talk to journalist and editor Nick Kepler about his 20 00:01:21.269 --> 00:01:26.040 latest provocative piece, interesting piece, for Slate Magazine. Who is 21 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:29.180 the most lonely group of Americans? Stick around for the 22 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.359 backside of our two. In our third hour, Wilbert Cooper, 23 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:37.090 author of the New York Times and Time Magazine's most 24 00:01:37.709 --> 00:01:40.469 anticipated book of the summer. That's high cotton when the 25 00:01:41.129 --> 00:01:44.230 New York Times and Time Magazine both list your book 26 00:01:44.349 --> 00:01:47.930 as the most anticipated of the summer. It's called The 27 00:01:47.989 --> 00:01:52.420 Black Shield, An American Memoir of Family and Power. The 28 00:01:52.459 --> 00:01:56.219 book tells an astonishing story of family, race, and the 29 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:02.140 complex duality of black cops in America. Fascinating text. I 30 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:04.870 think you'll appreciate the conversation we're going to have in 31 00:02:04.909 --> 00:02:08.849 hour three about all that. But in this first hour today, 32 00:02:08.889 --> 00:02:11.669 let's talk politics and more with our regular contributor, philosopher, lawyer, 33 00:02:11.729 --> 00:02:15.370 and professor, Tim Golden. There is so much that we 34 00:02:15.389 --> 00:02:20.849 talked about yesterday that has had reverberation. since yesterday. I'm 35 00:02:20.889 --> 00:02:22.250 going to play a clip in just a moment here 36 00:02:22.270 --> 00:02:25.530 of Hakeem Jeffries feeling the need to defend that meeting 37 00:02:25.550 --> 00:02:27.729 with Jared Kushner that we talked about yesterday. So he's 38 00:02:27.770 --> 00:02:30.629 on the defensive now about that meeting. I said yesterday, 39 00:02:30.650 --> 00:02:32.990 you have these private meetings and somebody finds out about it. 40 00:02:33.009 --> 00:02:35.969 You can't keep nothing secret, especially in DC these days. 41 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:38.150 So now he's having to speak publicly about what this 42 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:40.990 meeting was really about. So we'll hear from Hakeem Jeffries 43 00:02:41.009 --> 00:02:44.009 here in just a second. Donald Trump, there's a new 44 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:46.310 poll out. The question is, what does it really mean? 45 00:02:46.349 --> 00:02:47.569 I'll put that question to Tim Goldham. 46 00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:48.110 Here's the data. 47 00:02:49.210 --> 00:02:53.969 Trump, in this new poll, is underwater now in 47 states. 48 00:02:55.229 --> 00:02:59.389 I repeat that. He's underwater now in 47 states. I 49 00:02:59.409 --> 00:03:01.810 wasn't a math major, but I think since there are 50 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:03.830 only 50 of them, that means he's underwater in a 51 00:03:03.870 --> 00:03:06.210 lot of red states. A lot of states have voted 52 00:03:06.229 --> 00:03:09.490 for him. He's now underwater now in this latest poll 53 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:13.129 in 47 states. We'll talk about that with Tim Golden. 54 00:03:14.050 --> 00:03:17.009 We talked yesterday about impeachment, whether or not Democrats, Hakeem 55 00:03:17.030 --> 00:03:20.969 Jeffries and others, would have the temerity to impeach Donald Trump. 56 00:03:21.009 --> 00:03:23.110 Donald Trump is sort of playing with him. He was 57 00:03:23.129 --> 00:03:25.439 in South Carolina over the weekend saying, they're going to 58 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:27.810 impeach me. They're going to impeach me. He's kind of 59 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.039 rubbing it in their face, I think, because he knows 60 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:31.680 they ain't going to impeach him. But that didn't stop 61 00:03:31.780 --> 00:03:34.960 Al Green on his way out. He's leaving Congress after 62 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:39.400 this term. But yesterday he introduced, he filed articles of 63 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:42.759 impeachment against Donald Trump yet again. We'll talk about whether 64 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:44.819 or not this impeachment thing is going to go anywhere. 65 00:03:45.020 --> 00:03:47.439 Al Green is going back to Texas. But will this 66 00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:51.099 impeachment argument with the file go anywhere in Congress once 67 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:57.469 he leaves after he introduced it yesterday? And this backlash 68 00:03:57.810 --> 00:04:01.669 is growing, it seems, about Atlanta being snubbed as the 69 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:06.180 host city for the Democratic Convention come 2028. I said 70 00:04:06.219 --> 00:04:07.759 yesterday on this program, I don't think it really matters 71 00:04:07.780 --> 00:04:10.000 what the convention is these days. It comes down to 72 00:04:10.219 --> 00:04:12.259 a few districts and a few swing states. Does it 73 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:16.680 really matter where either convention is held? But Andy Beshear, 74 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:20.199 the white male governor of Kentucky, has sided with the 75 00:04:20.259 --> 00:04:23.839 black mayor of Atlanta in saying that Democrats can't take 76 00:04:23.899 --> 00:04:26.540 black voters or the South for granted. OK, I expect 77 00:04:26.579 --> 00:04:30.399 that from a southern governor. But this this squabble up 78 00:04:30.550 --> 00:04:34.550 inside the DNC, another squabble up inside the DNC now 79 00:04:34.629 --> 00:04:37.230 about where they're going to have their convention. The finalist, 80 00:04:37.790 --> 00:04:41.389 the final three cities are what? Boston, Philadelphia and where 81 00:04:41.410 --> 00:04:43.689 am I missing? Denver, Boston, Philly and Denver, the final 82 00:04:43.709 --> 00:04:46.509 three cities. Atlanta gets snubbed, and the black folk there 83 00:04:46.529 --> 00:04:48.050 ain't happy about it. The black mayor ain't happy about it. 84 00:04:48.069 --> 00:04:50.649 But other Southerners are now saying you snubbed the South, 85 00:04:50.709 --> 00:04:54.189 and that's not a good thing. So the infighting inside 86 00:04:54.230 --> 00:04:58.230 the Democratic Party continues. What else is new? Another day, 87 00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:00.629 another fight. I'm going to unleash Tim Golden for the 88 00:05:00.649 --> 00:05:03.610 rest of the hour after I play you an Akeem 89 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:05.689 Jeffries piece when we come forward. I'll start with the piece. 90 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:08.689 I'm sorry, Miles, not to confuse you. We'll play the 91 00:05:08.730 --> 00:05:10.709 clip when we come forward and then go to Tim Golden. 92 00:05:10.730 --> 00:05:14.569 You're listening to Tavisman. You're on D with Tim Golden, philosopher, professor, 93 00:05:14.949 --> 00:05:19.009 and lawyer, legal analyst. Always good to have him on 94 00:05:19.029 --> 00:05:20.509 the program. Tim, how are you today, sir? 95 00:05:22.029 --> 00:05:25.670 I am doing fantastic, Tavis. Thank you so much for 96 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:29.149 having me. As usual, it is great to be with you. 97 00:05:29.470 --> 00:05:31.029 As usual, good to have you on the program. Let 98 00:05:31.069 --> 00:05:33.350 me start with Akeem Jeffries. We talked again yesterday about 99 00:05:33.370 --> 00:05:35.490 a few things that have legs, as we say in 100 00:05:35.529 --> 00:05:38.250 this business. We'll come back to them and tell you 101 00:05:38.269 --> 00:05:41.540 how the story on these issues is advancing 24 hours later. 102 00:05:42.029 --> 00:05:45.170 We start with Hakeem Jeffries on that meeting with Jared Kushner. 103 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:48.009 I want to give you a little real talk on 104 00:05:48.029 --> 00:05:54.800 this Jared Kushner situation. He asked for a meeting and 105 00:05:54.860 --> 00:06:00.759 I took it to discuss the affordability crisis that exists 106 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.399 that is not a hoax. At the same period of time, 107 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:05.319 I shouldn't have to say it. 108 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:05.939 But I am. 109 00:06:07.019 --> 00:06:12.459 No one is going to get a pass We're going 110 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:17.670 to hold every single member of the Trump cartel accountable. 111 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:24.350 Beginning on day one. If you're stealing from the American people, 112 00:06:24.870 --> 00:06:29.930 shortchanging the American people, or screwing over the American people, 113 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:35.670 you're going to be held accountable. We're going to follow 114 00:06:35.689 --> 00:06:39.810 the facts, apply the law, and be guided by the Constitution. 115 00:06:40.790 --> 00:06:45.930 Beginning on day one. and hold the crooks accountable. 116 00:06:46.709 --> 00:06:48.410 There are a number of things about that clip, Tim Golden, 117 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:50.009 that jump out at me. Let me just give you 118 00:06:50.029 --> 00:06:51.209 a few of them right quick, and I'll shut up 119 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:53.529 and pass the mic to you. Number one, he says 120 00:06:53.569 --> 00:06:56.170 they're going to be held accountable. Every member of the cartel, 121 00:06:56.230 --> 00:06:58.009 the Trump cartel, is going to be held accountable on 122 00:06:58.089 --> 00:07:01.750 day one. Number one, he assumes that Democrats went back 123 00:07:01.769 --> 00:07:03.610 to the House and the Senate. That's the first thing. 124 00:07:04.189 --> 00:07:07.329 I've been saying for months now, warning this audience about 125 00:07:07.370 --> 00:07:09.930 what I call an irrational exuberance. We were looking for 126 00:07:09.949 --> 00:07:12.480 a big red wave. It did not happen in the 127 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.600 Biden midterm. And now everybody's talking about this big blue 128 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:18.620 wave that they expect to come in November. I pray 129 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:22.720 that it does. But there's a lot of assumption in 130 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:25.209 that comment from Hakeem Jeffries about what's going to happen 131 00:07:25.250 --> 00:07:28.370 on day one, assuming that he's the speaker on day one, 132 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:30.610 number one. Number two, when he says we're going to 133 00:07:30.629 --> 00:07:32.670 hold every member of the Trump cartel accountable, I think 134 00:07:32.709 --> 00:07:37.910 that means everybody but Donald Trump. So I have not 135 00:07:37.970 --> 00:07:42.870 seen anything come out of Hakeem Jeffries' mouth that suggests 136 00:07:42.889 --> 00:07:45.779 to me that they really want to go after Donald Trump. 137 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:49.139 We're going to connect this dot to the impeachment articles 138 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.300 filed by Al Green yesterday. You and I both know 139 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:54.819 Hakeem Jeffries don't want none of that. We talked about 140 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:56.899 that on this show yesterday. So he says we're going 141 00:07:56.930 --> 00:08:00.290 to hold every member of the cartel accountable. Yeah, except 142 00:08:00.610 --> 00:08:04.370 for Jared Kushner's father-in-law, the one you had the meeting with. 143 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:06.439 I could go on. Let me just stop for a second. 144 00:08:06.459 --> 00:08:08.779 But that clip, I like Hakeem, but that clip was 145 00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:09.939 funny to me for a lot of reasons. I don't 146 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.160 want to take up all your time. Go, Tim Golden. 147 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:17.350 So, Tavis, my initial reaction when I heard this was 148 00:08:17.430 --> 00:08:19.750 a reaction that we used to get out of the 149 00:08:19.810 --> 00:08:24.550 Reagan-Bush Republicans, who seem to be, as a practical matter, 150 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:29.589 extinct in electoral politics nowadays. But I remember part of 151 00:08:29.649 --> 00:08:34.179 their rhetorical message was, that you don't negotiate with terrorists. 152 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.379 I remember that would be said often in the context 153 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:44.059 of foreign policy. And that's what was called to my 154 00:08:44.139 --> 00:08:48.259 mind when I heard about this meeting. I thought to myself, 155 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:53.409 Leader Jeffries has created, whether he intended to or not, 156 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:58.570 a real political mess for himself through taking this meeting, 157 00:08:59.129 --> 00:09:05.899 because people... don't understand nuance in the heat of an 158 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:11.379 upcoming election. And whenever you have to explain yourself and 159 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:18.250 justify yourself, you are really at a disadvantage. So my 160 00:09:18.289 --> 00:09:24.129 thinking is, on one hand, I can understand where Leader 161 00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:28.330 Jeffries is coming from, because let's be honest, Him and 162 00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:32.049 Jared Kushner do have a history of having worked together. 163 00:09:32.090 --> 00:09:35.789 They worked together on the First Step Act during Trump's 164 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:42.419 first term. But what troubles me, Tavis, more than, you know, 165 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.960 I understand they have a history and I understand he's 166 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.700 trying to get things done. But I'm wondering to what 167 00:09:48.779 --> 00:09:53.919 extent this feeds into the notion of oligarchy. when an 168 00:09:54.019 --> 00:09:58.769 elected representative accountable to the people is meeting with someone 169 00:09:58.789 --> 00:10:03.100 who albeit has proximity to the president, but does not 170 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:08.679 hold a position in government. That's what concerns me about 171 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:14.090 the meeting most, more than all of the rhetorical things 172 00:10:14.169 --> 00:10:17.860 you could say about the meeting and not meeting with terrorists, etc., 173 00:10:18.850 --> 00:10:23.690 and even more than their history of working together, I'm 174 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:31.870 concerned now that taking this meeting signals a real influence, 175 00:10:32.090 --> 00:10:35.190 an influence that we know has existed for a long 176 00:10:35.269 --> 00:10:41.129 time from the Trump family. But it just became more 177 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:45.500 real to me to look at this situation and see, wow, 178 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:52.159 now you have elected leaders meeting with unelected influencers, and 179 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:55.899 that to me smacks of oligarchy. And that concerns me 180 00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:59.259 more about that meeting than anything else. 181 00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:03.509 So I hear you. I've got a more grave concern 182 00:11:03.549 --> 00:11:05.629 than that. Let me just say, with all due respect, 183 00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:08.090 the only part of your argument that's missing for me 184 00:11:08.350 --> 00:11:11.370 is that if Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader, were to 185 00:11:11.409 --> 00:11:14.009 meet with Donald Trump, the president of the United States, 186 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:17.259 he'd be meeting with a terrorist. He'd be meeting with 187 00:11:17.299 --> 00:11:19.379 a war criminal. You and I both know that. So 188 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:23.799 to suggest that that's the standard in this particular iteration 189 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.940 of government, I'm not sure that holds respectfully. Because, again, 190 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.470 if you call Jared Kushner that, then Donald Trump is 191 00:11:29.509 --> 00:11:32.710 that on steroids. So is Hakeem Jeffries, by your logic, 192 00:11:33.149 --> 00:11:35.409 not to meet with the president? I don't think that's 193 00:11:35.490 --> 00:11:38.509 what you're arguing. Because, again, I see Trump as a terrorist. 194 00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:41.029 I see Trump as a war criminal. So that can't 195 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:43.320 be the box that you want to put Hakeem Jeffries in, 196 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:44.340 is it, for starters? 197 00:11:45.379 --> 00:11:47.220 No, I don't want to put them in their box. 198 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.659 And when I borrowed that rhetoric from Reagan-Bush Republicans, I 199 00:11:51.700 --> 00:11:57.419 wasn't making a hardcore one-to-one comparison and saying that Jared 200 00:11:57.460 --> 00:12:01.720 Kushner is a terrorist. I was using that term loosely 201 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.970 to indicate the fact that these are two people on 202 00:12:06.070 --> 00:12:11.289 opposite sides of the aisle. So don't interpret my invocation 203 00:12:11.549 --> 00:12:16.070 of that statement as something where I was indicating that 204 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:21.549 Jared Kushner is actually a terrorist, right? Donald Trump may 205 00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:24.860 be all of those things that you said, but at 206 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.340 a minimum, Donald Trump is the president of the United States. 207 00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:34.159 Jared Kushner does not hold any elected office whatsoever. And 208 00:12:34.220 --> 00:12:41.070 so for me, the concerns about undue influence, of oligarchy 209 00:12:41.190 --> 00:12:45.350 in American politics took precedence over that. So that's why 210 00:12:45.389 --> 00:12:46.169 I took that position. 211 00:12:46.269 --> 00:12:48.950 I take your point. I ain't got an issue with 212 00:12:48.970 --> 00:12:53.370 the leader, Leader Jeffries, meeting with citizens of influence. I mean, 213 00:12:53.389 --> 00:12:58.090 you know, that's his prerogative. What troubles me about this meeting, 214 00:12:58.110 --> 00:13:00.690 and I said so yesterday, and here's why Hakeem Jeffries 215 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:03.409 had to respond to it today, because I was right yesterday, 216 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:08.129 with all due humility. I said yesterday, the problem with 217 00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:13.379 this meeting is is that it was private. You cannot 218 00:13:13.460 --> 00:13:16.460 meet with Jared Kushner when your name is Hakeem Jeffries 219 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:19.019 and think that ain't nobody going to find out about this. 220 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:24.570 And this is the issue of decision-making about Hakeem Jeffries 221 00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:27.929 that bothers me. If Jared Kushner asked for a meeting 222 00:13:28.429 --> 00:13:31.230 and you decide to meet with Jared Kushner, put it 223 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:33.950 on your public schedule. Say you're meeting with Jared Kushner, 224 00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:36.970 and at least you avoid the issue of people thinking 225 00:13:36.990 --> 00:13:39.570 that you were meeting in secret to your point, with 226 00:13:39.610 --> 00:13:42.250 an oligarch. And I just don't understand the calculus on that. 227 00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:45.590 Why have a private meeting as if there was something 228 00:13:45.649 --> 00:13:47.850 to hide when now you've been forced to come out 229 00:13:47.889 --> 00:13:49.870 publicly and talk about it, and now you've got to 230 00:13:49.950 --> 00:13:52.350 spin it and say, yeah, I met with Jared privately. 231 00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:54.830 Y'all wasn't supposed to know about that. You found out 232 00:13:54.889 --> 00:13:56.549 about it, and since you did, let me tell you 233 00:13:56.580 --> 00:13:58.240 what we talked about, but we're going to hold every 234 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.659 member of the Trump cartel accountable. That don't pass muster, 235 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:03.480 Tim Golden. It don't pass the smell test. 236 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.419 No, it doesn't. And part of it, I think you 237 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:11.470 and I are in a way saying something very similar, Travis, right? 238 00:14:11.570 --> 00:14:17.490 Because when you meet with private citizens of influence, private 239 00:14:17.570 --> 00:14:22.259 citizens of influence want private meetings. They want things to 240 00:14:22.330 --> 00:14:27.490 be clandestine. They want to operate in the shadows. And 241 00:14:27.509 --> 00:14:31.149 if I could quote the late Justice Thurgood Marshall, who 242 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:35.269 said democracy dies behind closed doors. Now, if you are 243 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:39.279 meeting with a private citizen. to whom you're accountable, that's 244 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:44.379 one of your constituents, that's one thing. But you're meeting 245 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:48.879 with somebody who does not hold office, to whom you 246 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.960 are not accountable as a representative, and you're taking a 247 00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:58.100 meeting with this person in private, and this person's only 248 00:14:58.179 --> 00:15:00.960 real credential is that they have a lot of money 249 00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:03.440 and they have a lot of influence and they have 250 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.519 a direct access to to the president. And when you 251 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:10.320 do that with a private citizen, any private, again, I 252 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.539 agree with you, it absolutely sends the wrong message. 253 00:15:15.139 --> 00:15:22.620 Let me pivot then to this impeachment issue. I mentioned 254 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.820 yesterday that Al Green, the congressman, let me do this first. 255 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:29.879 Tim Golden had a slip of the tongue there. It 256 00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:31.799 happens to me all the time on this show, so 257 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:34.759 we're all guilty of this every now and then. You 258 00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:36.340 can't do it, as I say to my friends, a 259 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.620 live show for three hours every day and not slip up. 260 00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:41.639 But he just gave a great quote that he attributed 261 00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:43.750 to Thurgood Marshall, but it wasn't Thurgood Marshall. It was 262 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:45.850 a justice, but it was not Thurgood Marshall. I'll tell 263 00:15:45.870 --> 00:15:47.929 you why I know this. I know this because I 264 00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:50.230 know the judge who said that. It was written in 265 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:53.350 his decision about the Watergate hearing, and it was not 266 00:15:53.389 --> 00:15:56.490 Thurgood Marshall. It was Damon Keith, federal judge Damon Keith 267 00:15:56.570 --> 00:15:59.320 out of Detroit, who used that phrase. Thurgood Marshall may 268 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.899 have borrowed it, but the phrase comes from Damon Keith, 269 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:03.440 and I'm only saying that because I knew Judge Keith 270 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.809 was a dear friend of mine. He wrote that line 271 00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:08.529 in his decision. The Watergate case was so hot in 272 00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:11.570 Washington that it went outside of Washington to the circuit 273 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:14.889 in D.C., on which Judge Damon Keith sat. And he 274 00:16:14.950 --> 00:16:18.710 wrote that famous line, democracies die behind closed doors. It 275 00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:21.830 was coined by him in that 2002 landmark decision. I 276 00:16:22.710 --> 00:16:26.509 can almost guarantee you, Tevis, that one, you're correct. 277 00:16:31.409 --> 00:16:36.809 And two, Justice Marshall probably, my association of the quote 278 00:16:36.850 --> 00:16:42.840 with Justice Marshall is probably because Justice Marshall quoted Justice 279 00:16:42.889 --> 00:16:44.419 Keith in one of his opinions. 280 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:45.519 There you go. 281 00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:46.580 Trust me. 282 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:49.600 I just want to clarify that for two reasons. One, 283 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:53.059 because I know the back story. It was Damon Keith, 284 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:56.559 iconic black federal judge in Detroit. The second reason why 285 00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:58.460 I'm sharing is because this program right now is being 286 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:01.080 heard in Detroit. And I'm going to get 25 phone 287 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:04.619 calls from Detroit that we hate, that we hating on 288 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:07.819 Detroit's own Judge Damon Keith, the late, great Damon Keith, 289 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.940 by not giving him his respect. I don't want those 290 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:12.359 phone calls coming from Detroit later today when they hear 291 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:14.920 this program. I hear that comment. So anyway, it was 292 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:17.269 Judge Damon Keith who originally said that Judge Thurgood Marshall 293 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:19.349 may have quoted Keith in the decision. But it's a 294 00:17:19.369 --> 00:17:21.710 great quote. And I didn't say that to push back 295 00:17:21.769 --> 00:17:23.670 on Tim Golden. I just want to provide some light 296 00:17:23.789 --> 00:17:26.029 on that quote. It is a great quote. He said 297 00:17:26.049 --> 00:17:30.319 it then and he's right now. Democracies die. behind closed 298 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.779 doors you see why tim golden used to quote uh 299 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:35.839 it again underscores the view that so many of us 300 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.559 have about what really happens in dc behind these closed 301 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:43.220 doors washington is bought and bossed by big money and 302 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.559 big business and it is these oligarchs and those with 303 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.200 money and power uh to quote tim golden accurately that 304 00:17:50.259 --> 00:17:52.240 get the kind of access that most of us never 305 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:54.539 would get do you think you could just ask uh 306 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:56.839 hakeem jeffries for a private meeting and you'd get it 307 00:17:57.170 --> 00:18:00.029 The answer is no. You would not get a private 308 00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:02.490 meeting with Hakeem Jeffries. It doesn't work that way. But 309 00:18:02.529 --> 00:18:05.069 if you're Jared Kushner, to Tim's point, even if you 310 00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:07.930 don't hold any office, but you happen to have that 311 00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:10.650 level of stature, you can get a private meeting with 312 00:18:10.670 --> 00:18:13.289 Hakeem Jeffries. It sends the wrong signal. And that's why 313 00:18:13.349 --> 00:18:15.349 I said the meeting should not have been in private. 314 00:18:15.690 --> 00:18:17.509 Should have put it out there publicly to begin with. OK, 315 00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:19.490 enough of that. It's a great quote from Judge Keith. 316 00:18:19.529 --> 00:18:24.849 I love that guy. Democracies die behind. closed doors. All right, 317 00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:28.190 let me just play Al Green, Congressman Al Green, talking 318 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:31.609 about his filing of these articles of impeachment against Trump 319 00:18:31.690 --> 00:18:34.670 again yesterday. When we come forward, I'll let Tim Golden 320 00:18:34.690 --> 00:18:38.549 go in on that. Here he is, Congressman Al Green. Hello, everyone. 321 00:18:39.009 --> 00:18:42.789 I'm your Congressman Al Green, and today I have just 322 00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:45.490 filed articles of impeachment. I have the articles in. 323 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:47.150 My hand, H. Res. 324 00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:52.230 1486, teaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, 325 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.420 for high crimes and misdemeanors. I'm not going to go 326 00:18:55.460 --> 00:18:58.660 into great detail right now about these articles, but I 327 00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.960 shall in the days to follow. But I will say this, 328 00:19:02.539 --> 00:19:06.400 these articles are not about Democrats. They're not about conservatives 329 00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:11.130 or liberals. They're not about left or right. They're about 330 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:15.190 right and wrong. They're about life and death. 331 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:19.089 I'm Travis Molley, I'm the brilliant philosopher, professor, legal analyst. 332 00:19:20.109 --> 00:19:23.650 all-around amazing public intellectual Tim Golden, who is our lead 333 00:19:23.690 --> 00:19:26.190 guest today. I can't call him a guest. He's a 334 00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:28.750 regular contributor, and I'm blessed to have him on this program. 335 00:19:29.490 --> 00:19:31.210 Let me play one more again in case you've just 336 00:19:31.230 --> 00:19:34.049 tuned in. The Al Green clip, we've been talking in 337 00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:35.809 the first half hour, in case you've just turned this on, 338 00:19:36.630 --> 00:19:40.509 about some stories that we raised yesterday that have grown 339 00:19:40.630 --> 00:19:43.509 over the last 24 hours. We started talking about this 340 00:19:43.549 --> 00:19:45.769 meeting between Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader in the House, 341 00:19:46.339 --> 00:19:48.730 and Jared Kushner, a private meeting they had They broke 342 00:19:48.769 --> 00:19:50.470 all out into the public and people found out about 343 00:19:50.490 --> 00:19:53.369 the meeting. And so now Hakeem Jeffries on his heels 344 00:19:53.730 --> 00:19:55.710 trying to explain why he had this private meeting with 345 00:19:55.730 --> 00:19:58.059 Jared Kushner. I won't play that clip again, but he 346 00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:01.130 tries his best to explain it. But he said ultimately that, yeah, 347 00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:04.579 we met and we talked about affordability as if, again, 348 00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:07.500 another point, Tim, as if Jared Kushner knows anything about affordability. 349 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.730 That's the funny part here. This guy... Jared Kushner can't 350 00:20:11.750 --> 00:20:14.990 spell affordability. He doesn't have any affordability issues in his 351 00:20:15.069 --> 00:20:18.630 own life, but that's what the meeting was about? Okay, Hakeem. Anyway, 352 00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:20.890 the oligarchs get access to the leaders. That's the way 353 00:20:20.910 --> 00:20:24.930 it works in D.C. But Hakeem Jeffries, that is, explaining, 354 00:20:24.990 --> 00:20:28.059 trying to explain why he met with Jared Kushner privately. 355 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:29.579 It's now out in the public, and so we played 356 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:31.599 that clip earlier. But I want to come back now 357 00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:34.039 to this Al Green clip. Congressman Al Green out of 358 00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:37.960 Houston has once again introduced impeachment articles against Donald Trump. 359 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.700 You know Al Green. He's been kicked out of the Senate. 360 00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:41.579 out of the well of the House two or three 361 00:20:41.619 --> 00:20:45.029 times during Trump speeches for standing up and protesting the 362 00:20:45.069 --> 00:20:47.349 president to his face in real time. I love Al 363 00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:50.769 Green for that. He's finishing up his last term. 364 00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:51.769 He was beaten. 365 00:20:52.069 --> 00:20:54.210 They redrew the lines in Texas. He lost a race 366 00:20:54.650 --> 00:20:56.839 to a young brother named Christian Menifee, a sharp brother. 367 00:20:57.490 --> 00:20:59.420 But Christian is a new congressman in that area, so 368 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.539 Al Green is now in his last term. But he 369 00:21:01.579 --> 00:21:04.079 ain't getting out of there without introducing these articles of 370 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.599 impeachment at least one more again. Here is Al Green 371 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:10.220 talking about it, and then we'll have Tim respond. Hello, everyone. 372 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.519 I'm your Congressman Al Green, and today I have just 373 00:21:14.619 --> 00:21:18.869 filed articles of impeachment. I have the articles in my hand, H. 374 00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:19.769 Res. 375 00:21:19.769 --> 00:21:23.970 1486, impeaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, 376 00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:27.130 for high crimes and misdemeanors. I'm not going to go 377 00:21:27.170 --> 00:21:30.380 into great detail right now about these articles, but I 378 00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:33.680 shall in the days to follow. But I will say this. 379 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:38.460 These articles are not about Democrats. They're not about conservatives 380 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:42.809 or liberals. They're not about left or right. They're about 381 00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:46.829 right and wrong. They're about life and death. 382 00:21:47.750 --> 00:21:50.589 All right, Tim Golden, Al Green once again files articles 383 00:21:50.609 --> 00:21:53.630 of impeachment. Let me connect this dot, as I promised 384 00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:56.289 I would earlier, to Hakeem Jeffrey suggesting that he is 385 00:21:56.309 --> 00:22:00.400 going to hold every member of the Trump cartel accountable. 386 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:04.329 I think he meant every member except Donald Trump. But 387 00:22:04.369 --> 00:22:08.750 how do you read these impeachment articles being introduced yesterday 388 00:22:08.789 --> 00:22:12.410 and whether or not there's any hope that Democrats would 389 00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:15.730 actually investigate Donald Trump if they get the gavel back, 390 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:18.019 much less impeach Donald Trump? 391 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:23.819 Representative Green has the right spirit, but regrettably he's in 392 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:29.869 the wrong venue to expect results on these articles of impeachment. 393 00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:34.980 The framers of the Constitution... designed impeachment to be a 394 00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:40.059 political process. And what I mean by political is they 395 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:45.519 designed it precisely to function with all of the things 396 00:22:45.579 --> 00:22:50.279 that Representative Green says these articles are not about. It 397 00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:55.589 was designed to be drawn along partisan lines, whether or 398 00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:01.730 not articles of impeachment actually go forward. And so The 399 00:23:01.789 --> 00:23:06.279 difference is that there's also a legal process, which is 400 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:12.779 based more on the law, the evidence, etc. And for impeachment, 401 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:17.059