1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,849 Speaker 1: Limerick Park in Los Angeles, California. I'm Tavis Smiley and 2 00:00:04,889 --> 00:00:08,849 I'm so glad to see you and me back in 3 00:00:08,910 --> 00:00:19,410 stride again. Before we get started with today's show, let 4 00:00:19,429 --> 00:00:21,390 me invite you to follow me on Facebook and Instagram 5 00:00:21,449 --> 00:00:25,730 at TheRealTavisSmiley and get updates on X, that's formally Twitter, 6 00:00:26,170 --> 00:00:29,010 at Tavis Smiley. By the way, Should you miss any 7 00:00:29,089 --> 00:00:30,910 part of today's program or want to catch up on 8 00:00:30,969 --> 00:00:36,829 previous shows, you can always visit TheTavisSmileyShow.com. That's TheTavisSmileyShow.com or 9 00:00:36,869 --> 00:00:39,729 wherever you get your podcast and listen to The Tavis 10 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:43,490 Smiley Podcast version of this live program at your leisure. 11 00:00:43,850 --> 00:00:46,219 Another great show on tap for you today. In our 12 00:00:46,299 --> 00:00:50,740 second hour, two conversations. Up first, Skye Perryman, president and 13 00:00:50,820 --> 00:00:55,520 CEO of Democracy Forward and a Time 100 honoree, talks 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,229 about her brand-new textbook. Ordinary People, Extraordinary Times, How to 15 00:01:00,270 --> 00:01:05,189 Reclaim Your Power, Fight for Freedom, and Reimagine Democracy. On 16 00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:08,579 the B side of our two, America's Loneliness Trap, take 17 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:11,439 a listen to this. One group of people in this 18 00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:17,180 country is more isolated than anyone else. No, it's not men. 19 00:01:17,879 --> 00:01:20,909 We'll talk to journalist and editor Nick Kepler about his 20 00:01:21,269 --> 00:01:26,040 latest provocative piece, interesting piece, for Slate Magazine. Who is 21 00:01:26,099 --> 00:01:29,180 the most lonely group of Americans? Stick around for the 22 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:33,359 backside of our two. In our third hour, Wilbert Cooper, 23 00:01:33,519 --> 00:01:37,090 author of the New York Times and Time Magazine's most 24 00:01:37,709 --> 00:01:40,469 anticipated book of the summer. That's high cotton when the 25 00:01:41,129 --> 00:01:44,230 New York Times and Time Magazine both list your book 26 00:01:44,349 --> 00:01:47,930 as the most anticipated of the summer. It's called The 27 00:01:47,989 --> 00:01:52,420 Black Shield, An American Memoir of Family and Power. The 28 00:01:52,459 --> 00:01:56,219 book tells an astonishing story of family, race, and the 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:02,140 complex duality of black cops in America. Fascinating text. I 30 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:04,870 think you'll appreciate the conversation we're going to have in 31 00:02:04,909 --> 00:02:08,849 hour three about all that. But in this first hour today, 32 00:02:08,889 --> 00:02:11,669 let's talk politics and more with our regular contributor, philosopher, lawyer, 33 00:02:11,729 --> 00:02:15,370 and professor, Tim Golden. There is so much that we 34 00:02:15,389 --> 00:02:20,849 talked about yesterday that has had reverberation. since yesterday. I'm 35 00:02:20,889 --> 00:02:22,250 going to play a clip in just a moment here 36 00:02:22,270 --> 00:02:25,530 of Hakeem Jeffries feeling the need to defend that meeting 37 00:02:25,550 --> 00:02:27,729 with Jared Kushner that we talked about yesterday. So he's 38 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:30,629 on the defensive now about that meeting. I said yesterday, 39 00:02:30,650 --> 00:02:32,990 you have these private meetings and somebody finds out about it. 40 00:02:33,009 --> 00:02:35,969 You can't keep nothing secret, especially in DC these days. 41 00:02:36,009 --> 00:02:38,150 So now he's having to speak publicly about what this 42 00:02:38,169 --> 00:02:40,990 meeting was really about. So we'll hear from Hakeem Jeffries 43 00:02:41,009 --> 00:02:44,009 here in just a second. Donald Trump, there's a new 44 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:46,310 poll out. The question is, what does it really mean? 45 00:02:46,349 --> 00:02:47,569 I'll put that question to Tim Goldham. 46 00:02:47,590 --> 00:02:48,110 Speaker 2: Here's the data. 47 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:53,969 Speaker 1: Trump, in this new poll, is underwater now in 47 states. 48 00:02:55,229 --> 00:02:59,389 I repeat that. He's underwater now in 47 states. I 49 00:02:59,409 --> 00:03:01,810 wasn't a math major, but I think since there are 50 00:03:01,930 --> 00:03:03,830 only 50 of them, that means he's underwater in a 51 00:03:03,870 --> 00:03:06,210 lot of red states. A lot of states have voted 52 00:03:06,229 --> 00:03:09,490 for him. He's now underwater now in this latest poll 53 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:13,129 in 47 states. We'll talk about that with Tim Golden. 54 00:03:14,050 --> 00:03:17,009 We talked yesterday about impeachment, whether or not Democrats, Hakeem 55 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:20,969 Jeffries and others, would have the temerity to impeach Donald Trump. 56 00:03:21,009 --> 00:03:23,110 Donald Trump is sort of playing with him. He was 57 00:03:23,129 --> 00:03:25,439 in South Carolina over the weekend saying, they're going to 58 00:03:25,460 --> 00:03:27,810 impeach me. They're going to impeach me. He's kind of 59 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:30,039 rubbing it in their face, I think, because he knows 60 00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:31,680 they ain't going to impeach him. But that didn't stop 61 00:03:31,780 --> 00:03:34,960 Al Green on his way out. He's leaving Congress after 62 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,400 this term. But yesterday he introduced, he filed articles of 63 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:42,759 impeachment against Donald Trump yet again. We'll talk about whether 64 00:03:42,780 --> 00:03:44,819 or not this impeachment thing is going to go anywhere. 65 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:47,439 Al Green is going back to Texas. But will this 66 00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:51,099 impeachment argument with the file go anywhere in Congress once 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:57,469 he leaves after he introduced it yesterday? And this backlash 68 00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:01,669 is growing, it seems, about Atlanta being snubbed as the 69 00:04:01,990 --> 00:04:06,180 host city for the Democratic Convention come 2028. I said 70 00:04:06,219 --> 00:04:07,759 yesterday on this program, I don't think it really matters 71 00:04:07,780 --> 00:04:10,000 what the convention is these days. It comes down to 72 00:04:10,219 --> 00:04:12,259 a few districts and a few swing states. Does it 73 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,680 really matter where either convention is held? But Andy Beshear, 74 00:04:16,740 --> 00:04:20,199 the white male governor of Kentucky, has sided with the 75 00:04:20,259 --> 00:04:23,839 black mayor of Atlanta in saying that Democrats can't take 76 00:04:23,899 --> 00:04:26,540 black voters or the South for granted. OK, I expect 77 00:04:26,579 --> 00:04:30,399 that from a southern governor. But this this squabble up 78 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:34,550 inside the DNC, another squabble up inside the DNC now 79 00:04:34,629 --> 00:04:37,230 about where they're going to have their convention. The finalist, 80 00:04:37,790 --> 00:04:41,389 the final three cities are what? Boston, Philadelphia and where 81 00:04:41,410 --> 00:04:43,689 am I missing? Denver, Boston, Philly and Denver, the final 82 00:04:43,709 --> 00:04:46,509 three cities. Atlanta gets snubbed, and the black folk there 83 00:04:46,529 --> 00:04:48,050 ain't happy about it. The black mayor ain't happy about it. 84 00:04:48,069 --> 00:04:50,649 But other Southerners are now saying you snubbed the South, 85 00:04:50,709 --> 00:04:54,189 and that's not a good thing. So the infighting inside 86 00:04:54,230 --> 00:04:58,230 the Democratic Party continues. What else is new? Another day, 87 00:04:58,370 --> 00:05:00,629 another fight. I'm going to unleash Tim Golden for the 88 00:05:00,649 --> 00:05:03,610 rest of the hour after I play you an Akeem 89 00:05:03,649 --> 00:05:05,689 Jeffries piece when we come forward. I'll start with the piece. 90 00:05:06,029 --> 00:05:08,689 I'm sorry, Miles, not to confuse you. We'll play the 91 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:10,709 clip when we come forward and then go to Tim Golden. 92 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:14,569 You're listening to Tavisman. You're on D with Tim Golden, philosopher, professor, 93 00:05:14,949 --> 00:05:19,009 and lawyer, legal analyst. Always good to have him on 94 00:05:19,029 --> 00:05:20,509 the program. Tim, how are you today, sir? 95 00:05:22,029 --> 00:05:25,670 Speaker 2: I am doing fantastic, Tavis. Thank you so much for 96 00:05:25,689 --> 00:05:29,149 having me. As usual, it is great to be with you. 97 00:05:29,470 --> 00:05:31,029 Speaker 1: As usual, good to have you on the program. Let 98 00:05:31,069 --> 00:05:33,350 me start with Akeem Jeffries. We talked again yesterday about 99 00:05:33,370 --> 00:05:35,490 a few things that have legs, as we say in 100 00:05:35,529 --> 00:05:38,250 this business. We'll come back to them and tell you 101 00:05:38,269 --> 00:05:41,540 how the story on these issues is advancing 24 hours later. 102 00:05:42,029 --> 00:05:45,170 We start with Hakeem Jeffries on that meeting with Jared Kushner. 103 00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:48,009 Speaker 3: I want to give you a little real talk on 104 00:05:48,029 --> 00:05:54,800 this Jared Kushner situation. He asked for a meeting and 105 00:05:54,860 --> 00:06:00,759 I took it to discuss the affordability crisis that exists 106 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,399 that is not a hoax. At the same period of time, 107 00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:05,319 I shouldn't have to say it. 108 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:05,939 Speaker 1: But I am. 109 00:06:07,019 --> 00:06:12,459 Speaker 3: No one is going to get a pass We're going 110 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,670 to hold every single member of the Trump cartel accountable. 111 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:24,350 Beginning on day one. If you're stealing from the American people, 112 00:06:24,870 --> 00:06:29,930 shortchanging the American people, or screwing over the American people, 113 00:06:30,589 --> 00:06:35,670 you're going to be held accountable. We're going to follow 114 00:06:35,689 --> 00:06:39,810 the facts, apply the law, and be guided by the Constitution. 115 00:06:40,790 --> 00:06:45,930 Beginning on day one. and hold the crooks accountable. 116 00:06:46,709 --> 00:06:48,410 Speaker 1: There are a number of things about that clip, Tim Golden, 117 00:06:48,430 --> 00:06:50,009 that jump out at me. Let me just give you 118 00:06:50,029 --> 00:06:51,209 a few of them right quick, and I'll shut up 119 00:06:51,250 --> 00:06:53,529 and pass the mic to you. Number one, he says 120 00:06:53,569 --> 00:06:56,170 they're going to be held accountable. Every member of the cartel, 121 00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:58,009 the Trump cartel, is going to be held accountable on 122 00:06:58,089 --> 00:07:01,750 day one. Number one, he assumes that Democrats went back 123 00:07:01,769 --> 00:07:03,610 to the House and the Senate. That's the first thing. 124 00:07:04,189 --> 00:07:07,329 I've been saying for months now, warning this audience about 125 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:09,930 what I call an irrational exuberance. We were looking for 126 00:07:09,949 --> 00:07:12,480 a big red wave. It did not happen in the 127 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:15,600 Biden midterm. And now everybody's talking about this big blue 128 00:07:15,660 --> 00:07:18,620 wave that they expect to come in November. I pray 129 00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:22,720 that it does. But there's a lot of assumption in 130 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:25,209 that comment from Hakeem Jeffries about what's going to happen 131 00:07:25,250 --> 00:07:28,370 on day one, assuming that he's the speaker on day one, 132 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:30,610 number one. Number two, when he says we're going to 133 00:07:30,629 --> 00:07:32,670 hold every member of the Trump cartel accountable, I think 134 00:07:32,709 --> 00:07:37,910 that means everybody but Donald Trump. So I have not 135 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:42,870 seen anything come out of Hakeem Jeffries' mouth that suggests 136 00:07:42,889 --> 00:07:45,779 to me that they really want to go after Donald Trump. 137 00:07:46,180 --> 00:07:49,139 We're going to connect this dot to the impeachment articles 138 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:52,300 filed by Al Green yesterday. You and I both know 139 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,819 Hakeem Jeffries don't want none of that. We talked about 140 00:07:54,860 --> 00:07:56,899 that on this show yesterday. So he says we're going 141 00:07:56,930 --> 00:08:00,290 to hold every member of the cartel accountable. Yeah, except 142 00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:04,370 for Jared Kushner's father-in-law, the one you had the meeting with. 143 00:08:04,759 --> 00:08:06,439 I could go on. Let me just stop for a second. 144 00:08:06,459 --> 00:08:08,779 But that clip, I like Hakeem, but that clip was 145 00:08:08,819 --> 00:08:09,939 funny to me for a lot of reasons. I don't 146 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:12,160 want to take up all your time. Go, Tim Golden. 147 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:17,350 Speaker 2: So, Tavis, my initial reaction when I heard this was 148 00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:19,750 a reaction that we used to get out of the 149 00:08:19,810 --> 00:08:24,550 Reagan-Bush Republicans, who seem to be, as a practical matter, 150 00:08:24,730 --> 00:08:29,589 extinct in electoral politics nowadays. But I remember part of 151 00:08:29,649 --> 00:08:34,179 their rhetorical message was, that you don't negotiate with terrorists. 152 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,379 I remember that would be said often in the context 153 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:44,059 of foreign policy. And that's what was called to my 154 00:08:44,139 --> 00:08:48,259 mind when I heard about this meeting. I thought to myself, 155 00:08:49,179 --> 00:08:53,409 Leader Jeffries has created, whether he intended to or not, 156 00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:58,570 a real political mess for himself through taking this meeting, 157 00:08:59,129 --> 00:09:05,899 because people... don't understand nuance in the heat of an 158 00:09:06,039 --> 00:09:11,379 upcoming election. And whenever you have to explain yourself and 159 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:18,250 justify yourself, you are really at a disadvantage. So my 160 00:09:18,289 --> 00:09:24,129 thinking is, on one hand, I can understand where Leader 161 00:09:24,169 --> 00:09:28,330 Jeffries is coming from, because let's be honest, Him and 162 00:09:28,389 --> 00:09:32,049 Jared Kushner do have a history of having worked together. 163 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:35,789 They worked together on the First Step Act during Trump's 164 00:09:36,330 --> 00:09:42,419 first term. But what troubles me, Tavis, more than, you know, 165 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,960 I understand they have a history and I understand he's 166 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,700 trying to get things done. But I'm wondering to what 167 00:09:48,779 --> 00:09:53,919 extent this feeds into the notion of oligarchy. when an 168 00:09:54,019 --> 00:09:58,769 elected representative accountable to the people is meeting with someone 169 00:09:58,789 --> 00:10:03,100 who albeit has proximity to the president, but does not 170 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:08,679 hold a position in government. That's what concerns me about 171 00:10:08,740 --> 00:10:14,090 the meeting most, more than all of the rhetorical things 172 00:10:14,169 --> 00:10:17,860 you could say about the meeting and not meeting with terrorists, etc., 173 00:10:18,850 --> 00:10:23,690 and even more than their history of working together, I'm 174 00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:31,870 concerned now that taking this meeting signals a real influence, 175 00:10:32,090 --> 00:10:35,190 an influence that we know has existed for a long 176 00:10:35,269 --> 00:10:41,129 time from the Trump family. But it just became more 177 00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:45,500 real to me to look at this situation and see, wow, 178 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:52,159 now you have elected leaders meeting with unelected influencers, and 179 00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:55,899 that to me smacks of oligarchy. And that concerns me 180 00:10:56,419 --> 00:10:59,259 more about that meeting than anything else. 181 00:10:59,750 --> 00:11:03,509 Speaker 1: So I hear you. I've got a more grave concern 182 00:11:03,549 --> 00:11:05,629 than that. Let me just say, with all due respect, 183 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:08,090 the only part of your argument that's missing for me 184 00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:11,370 is that if Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader, were to 185 00:11:11,409 --> 00:11:14,009 meet with Donald Trump, the president of the United States, 186 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:17,259 he'd be meeting with a terrorist. He'd be meeting with 187 00:11:17,299 --> 00:11:19,379 a war criminal. You and I both know that. So 188 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:23,799 to suggest that that's the standard in this particular iteration 189 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,940 of government, I'm not sure that holds respectfully. Because, again, 190 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,470 if you call Jared Kushner that, then Donald Trump is 191 00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:32,710 that on steroids. So is Hakeem Jeffries, by your logic, 192 00:11:33,149 --> 00:11:35,409 not to meet with the president? I don't think that's 193 00:11:35,490 --> 00:11:38,509 what you're arguing. Because, again, I see Trump as a terrorist. 194 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:41,029 I see Trump as a war criminal. So that can't 195 00:11:41,090 --> 00:11:43,320 be the box that you want to put Hakeem Jeffries in, 196 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:44,340 is it, for starters? 197 00:11:45,379 --> 00:11:47,220 Speaker 2: No, I don't want to put them in their box. 198 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,659 And when I borrowed that rhetoric from Reagan-Bush Republicans, I 199 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:57,419 wasn't making a hardcore one-to-one comparison and saying that Jared 200 00:11:57,460 --> 00:12:01,720 Kushner is a terrorist. I was using that term loosely 201 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,970 to indicate the fact that these are two people on 202 00:12:06,070 --> 00:12:11,289 opposite sides of the aisle. So don't interpret my invocation 203 00:12:11,549 --> 00:12:16,070 of that statement as something where I was indicating that 204 00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:21,549 Jared Kushner is actually a terrorist, right? Donald Trump may 205 00:12:21,809 --> 00:12:24,860 be all of those things that you said, but at 206 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:28,340 a minimum, Donald Trump is the president of the United States. 207 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:34,159 Jared Kushner does not hold any elected office whatsoever. And 208 00:12:34,220 --> 00:12:41,070 so for me, the concerns about undue influence, of oligarchy 209 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:45,350 in American politics took precedence over that. So that's why 210 00:12:45,389 --> 00:12:46,169 I took that position. 211 00:12:46,269 --> 00:12:48,950 Speaker 1: I take your point. I ain't got an issue with 212 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:53,370 the leader, Leader Jeffries, meeting with citizens of influence. I mean, 213 00:12:53,389 --> 00:12:58,090 you know, that's his prerogative. What troubles me about this meeting, 214 00:12:58,110 --> 00:13:00,690 and I said so yesterday, and here's why Hakeem Jeffries 215 00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:03,409 had to respond to it today, because I was right yesterday, 216 00:13:03,690 --> 00:13:08,129 with all due humility. I said yesterday, the problem with 217 00:13:08,149 --> 00:13:13,379 this meeting is is that it was private. You cannot 218 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,460 meet with Jared Kushner when your name is Hakeem Jeffries 219 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:19,019 and think that ain't nobody going to find out about this. 220 00:13:19,659 --> 00:13:24,570 And this is the issue of decision-making about Hakeem Jeffries 221 00:13:24,610 --> 00:13:27,929 that bothers me. If Jared Kushner asked for a meeting 222 00:13:28,429 --> 00:13:31,230 and you decide to meet with Jared Kushner, put it 223 00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:33,950 on your public schedule. Say you're meeting with Jared Kushner, 224 00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:36,970 and at least you avoid the issue of people thinking 225 00:13:36,990 --> 00:13:39,570 that you were meeting in secret to your point, with 226 00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:42,250 an oligarch. And I just don't understand the calculus on that. 227 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:45,590 Why have a private meeting as if there was something 228 00:13:45,649 --> 00:13:47,850 to hide when now you've been forced to come out 229 00:13:47,889 --> 00:13:49,870 publicly and talk about it, and now you've got to 230 00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:52,350 spin it and say, yeah, I met with Jared privately. 231 00:13:52,690 --> 00:13:54,830 Y'all wasn't supposed to know about that. You found out 232 00:13:54,889 --> 00:13:56,549 about it, and since you did, let me tell you 233 00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:58,240 what we talked about, but we're going to hold every 234 00:13:58,279 --> 00:14:01,659 member of the Trump cartel accountable. That don't pass muster, 235 00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:03,480 Tim Golden. It don't pass the smell test. 236 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:07,419 Speaker 2: No, it doesn't. And part of it, I think you 237 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:11,470 and I are in a way saying something very similar, Travis, right? 238 00:14:11,570 --> 00:14:17,490 Because when you meet with private citizens of influence, private 239 00:14:17,570 --> 00:14:22,259 citizens of influence want private meetings. They want things to 240 00:14:22,330 --> 00:14:27,490 be clandestine. They want to operate in the shadows. And 241 00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:31,149 if I could quote the late Justice Thurgood Marshall, who 242 00:14:31,190 --> 00:14:35,269 said democracy dies behind closed doors. Now, if you are 243 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,279 meeting with a private citizen. to whom you're accountable, that's 244 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:44,379 one of your constituents, that's one thing. But you're meeting 245 00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:48,879 with somebody who does not hold office, to whom you 246 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,960 are not accountable as a representative, and you're taking a 247 00:14:54,019 --> 00:14:58,100 meeting with this person in private, and this person's only 248 00:14:58,179 --> 00:15:00,960 real credential is that they have a lot of money 249 00:15:01,139 --> 00:15:03,440 and they have a lot of influence and they have 250 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:06,519 a direct access to to the president. And when you 251 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:10,320 do that with a private citizen, any private, again, I 252 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,539 agree with you, it absolutely sends the wrong message. 253 00:15:15,139 --> 00:15:22,620 Speaker 1: Let me pivot then to this impeachment issue. I mentioned 254 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,820 yesterday that Al Green, the congressman, let me do this first. 255 00:15:28,139 --> 00:15:29,879 Tim Golden had a slip of the tongue there. It 256 00:15:29,899 --> 00:15:31,799 happens to me all the time on this show, so 257 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:34,759 we're all guilty of this every now and then. You 258 00:15:34,820 --> 00:15:36,340 can't do it, as I say to my friends, a 259 00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:38,620 live show for three hours every day and not slip up. 260 00:15:39,379 --> 00:15:41,639 But he just gave a great quote that he attributed 261 00:15:41,659 --> 00:15:43,750 to Thurgood Marshall, but it wasn't Thurgood Marshall. It was 262 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:45,850 a justice, but it was not Thurgood Marshall. I'll tell 263 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:47,929 you why I know this. I know this because I 264 00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:50,230 know the judge who said that. It was written in 265 00:15:50,250 --> 00:15:53,350 his decision about the Watergate hearing, and it was not 266 00:15:53,389 --> 00:15:56,490 Thurgood Marshall. It was Damon Keith, federal judge Damon Keith 267 00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:59,320 out of Detroit, who used that phrase. Thurgood Marshall may 268 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,899 have borrowed it, but the phrase comes from Damon Keith, 269 00:16:01,940 --> 00:16:03,440 and I'm only saying that because I knew Judge Keith 270 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,809 was a dear friend of mine. He wrote that line 271 00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:08,529 in his decision. The Watergate case was so hot in 272 00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,570 Washington that it went outside of Washington to the circuit 273 00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:14,889 in D.C., on which Judge Damon Keith sat. And he 274 00:16:14,950 --> 00:16:18,710 wrote that famous line, democracies die behind closed doors. It 275 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:21,830 was coined by him in that 2002 landmark decision. I 276 00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:26,509 can almost guarantee you, Tevis, that one, you're correct. 277 00:16:31,409 --> 00:16:36,809 Speaker 2: And two, Justice Marshall probably, my association of the quote 278 00:16:36,850 --> 00:16:42,840 with Justice Marshall is probably because Justice Marshall quoted Justice 279 00:16:42,889 --> 00:16:44,419 Keith in one of his opinions. 280 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,519 Speaker 1: There you go. 281 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:46,580 Speaker 2: Trust me. 282 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: I just want to clarify that for two reasons. One, 283 00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:53,059 because I know the back story. It was Damon Keith, 284 00:16:53,419 --> 00:16:56,559 iconic black federal judge in Detroit. The second reason why 285 00:16:56,580 --> 00:16:58,460 I'm sharing is because this program right now is being 286 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:01,080 heard in Detroit. And I'm going to get 25 phone 287 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:04,619 calls from Detroit that we hate, that we hating on 288 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:07,819 Detroit's own Judge Damon Keith, the late, great Damon Keith, 289 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,940 by not giving him his respect. I don't want those 290 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:12,359 phone calls coming from Detroit later today when they hear 291 00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:14,920 this program. I hear that comment. So anyway, it was 292 00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:17,269 Judge Damon Keith who originally said that Judge Thurgood Marshall 293 00:17:17,289 --> 00:17:19,349 may have quoted Keith in the decision. But it's a 294 00:17:19,369 --> 00:17:21,710 great quote. And I didn't say that to push back 295 00:17:21,769 --> 00:17:23,670 on Tim Golden. I just want to provide some light 296 00:17:23,789 --> 00:17:26,029 on that quote. It is a great quote. He said 297 00:17:26,049 --> 00:17:30,319 it then and he's right now. Democracies die. behind closed 298 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,779 doors you see why tim golden used to quote uh 299 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:35,839 it again underscores the view that so many of us 300 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,559 have about what really happens in dc behind these closed 301 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:43,220 doors washington is bought and bossed by big money and 302 00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:46,559 big business and it is these oligarchs and those with 303 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,200 money and power uh to quote tim golden accurately that 304 00:17:50,259 --> 00:17:52,240 get the kind of access that most of us never 305 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:54,539 would get do you think you could just ask uh 306 00:17:54,599 --> 00:17:56,839 hakeem jeffries for a private meeting and you'd get it 307 00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:00,029 The answer is no. You would not get a private 308 00:18:00,069 --> 00:18:02,490 meeting with Hakeem Jeffries. It doesn't work that way. But 309 00:18:02,529 --> 00:18:05,069 if you're Jared Kushner, to Tim's point, even if you 310 00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,930 don't hold any office, but you happen to have that 311 00:18:08,009 --> 00:18:10,650 level of stature, you can get a private meeting with 312 00:18:10,670 --> 00:18:13,289 Hakeem Jeffries. It sends the wrong signal. And that's why 313 00:18:13,349 --> 00:18:15,349 I said the meeting should not have been in private. 314 00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:17,509 Should have put it out there publicly to begin with. OK, 315 00:18:17,630 --> 00:18:19,490 enough of that. It's a great quote from Judge Keith. 316 00:18:19,529 --> 00:18:24,849 I love that guy. Democracies die behind. closed doors. All right, 317 00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:28,190 let me just play Al Green, Congressman Al Green, talking 318 00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:31,609 about his filing of these articles of impeachment against Trump 319 00:18:31,690 --> 00:18:34,670 again yesterday. When we come forward, I'll let Tim Golden 320 00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:38,549 go in on that. Here he is, Congressman Al Green. Hello, everyone. 321 00:18:39,009 --> 00:18:42,789 Speaker 4: I'm your Congressman Al Green, and today I have just 322 00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:45,490 filed articles of impeachment. I have the articles in. 323 00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:47,150 Speaker 2: My hand, H. Res. 324 00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:52,230 Speaker 4: 1486, teaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, 325 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,420 for high crimes and misdemeanors. I'm not going to go 326 00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:58,660 into great detail right now about these articles, but I 327 00:18:58,740 --> 00:19:01,960 shall in the days to follow. But I will say this, 328 00:19:02,539 --> 00:19:06,400 these articles are not about Democrats. They're not about conservatives 329 00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:11,130 or liberals. They're not about left or right. They're about 330 00:19:11,269 --> 00:19:15,190 right and wrong. They're about life and death. 331 00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:19,089 Speaker 1: I'm Travis Molley, I'm the brilliant philosopher, professor, legal analyst. 332 00:19:20,109 --> 00:19:23,650 all-around amazing public intellectual Tim Golden, who is our lead 333 00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:26,190 guest today. I can't call him a guest. He's a 334 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:28,750 regular contributor, and I'm blessed to have him on this program. 335 00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:31,210 Let me play one more again in case you've just 336 00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:34,049 tuned in. The Al Green clip, we've been talking in 337 00:19:34,069 --> 00:19:35,809 the first half hour, in case you've just turned this on, 338 00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:40,509 about some stories that we raised yesterday that have grown 339 00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:43,509 over the last 24 hours. We started talking about this 340 00:19:43,549 --> 00:19:45,769 meeting between Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader in the House, 341 00:19:46,339 --> 00:19:48,730 and Jared Kushner, a private meeting they had They broke 342 00:19:48,769 --> 00:19:50,470 all out into the public and people found out about 343 00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:53,369 the meeting. And so now Hakeem Jeffries on his heels 344 00:19:53,730 --> 00:19:55,710 trying to explain why he had this private meeting with 345 00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:58,059 Jared Kushner. I won't play that clip again, but he 346 00:19:58,099 --> 00:20:01,130 tries his best to explain it. But he said ultimately that, yeah, 347 00:20:01,150 --> 00:20:04,579 we met and we talked about affordability as if, again, 348 00:20:04,660 --> 00:20:07,500 another point, Tim, as if Jared Kushner knows anything about affordability. 349 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,730 That's the funny part here. This guy... Jared Kushner can't 350 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:14,990 spell affordability. He doesn't have any affordability issues in his 351 00:20:15,069 --> 00:20:18,630 own life, but that's what the meeting was about? Okay, Hakeem. Anyway, 352 00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:20,890 the oligarchs get access to the leaders. That's the way 353 00:20:20,910 --> 00:20:24,930 it works in D.C. But Hakeem Jeffries, that is, explaining, 354 00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:28,059 trying to explain why he met with Jared Kushner privately. 355 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:29,579 It's now out in the public, and so we played 356 00:20:29,599 --> 00:20:31,599 that clip earlier. But I want to come back now 357 00:20:31,660 --> 00:20:34,039 to this Al Green clip. Congressman Al Green out of 358 00:20:34,059 --> 00:20:37,960 Houston has once again introduced impeachment articles against Donald Trump. 359 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,700 You know Al Green. He's been kicked out of the Senate. 360 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:41,579 out of the well of the House two or three 361 00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:45,029 times during Trump speeches for standing up and protesting the 362 00:20:45,069 --> 00:20:47,349 president to his face in real time. I love Al 363 00:20:47,369 --> 00:20:50,769 Green for that. He's finishing up his last term. 364 00:20:51,170 --> 00:20:51,769 Speaker 2: He was beaten. 365 00:20:52,069 --> 00:20:54,210 Speaker 1: They redrew the lines in Texas. He lost a race 366 00:20:54,650 --> 00:20:56,839 to a young brother named Christian Menifee, a sharp brother. 367 00:20:57,490 --> 00:20:59,420 But Christian is a new congressman in that area, so 368 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,539 Al Green is now in his last term. But he 369 00:21:01,579 --> 00:21:04,079 ain't getting out of there without introducing these articles of 370 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,599 impeachment at least one more again. Here is Al Green 371 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,220 talking about it, and then we'll have Tim respond. Hello, everyone. 372 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,519 Speaker 4: I'm your Congressman Al Green, and today I have just 373 00:21:14,619 --> 00:21:18,869 filed articles of impeachment. I have the articles in my hand, H. 374 00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:19,769 Speaker 2: Res. 375 00:21:19,769 --> 00:21:23,970 Speaker 4: 1486, impeaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, 376 00:21:24,490 --> 00:21:27,130 for high crimes and misdemeanors. I'm not going to go 377 00:21:27,170 --> 00:21:30,380 into great detail right now about these articles, but I 378 00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:33,680 shall in the days to follow. But I will say this. 379 00:21:34,259 --> 00:21:38,460 These articles are not about Democrats. They're not about conservatives 380 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,809 or liberals. They're not about left or right. They're about 381 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:46,829 right and wrong. They're about life and death. 382 00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:50,589 Speaker 1: All right, Tim Golden, Al Green once again files articles 383 00:21:50,609 --> 00:21:53,630 of impeachment. Let me connect this dot, as I promised 384 00:21:53,670 --> 00:21:56,289 I would earlier, to Hakeem Jeffrey suggesting that he is 385 00:21:56,309 --> 00:22:00,400 going to hold every member of the Trump cartel accountable. 386 00:22:00,859 --> 00:22:04,329 I think he meant every member except Donald Trump. But 387 00:22:04,369 --> 00:22:08,750 how do you read these impeachment articles being introduced yesterday 388 00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:12,410 and whether or not there's any hope that Democrats would 389 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:15,730 actually investigate Donald Trump if they get the gavel back, 390 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:18,019 much less impeach Donald Trump? 391 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:23,819 Speaker 2: Representative Green has the right spirit, but regrettably he's in 392 00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:29,869 the wrong venue to expect results on these articles of impeachment. 393 00:22:30,289 --> 00:22:34,980 The framers of the Constitution... designed impeachment to be a 394 00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:40,059 political process. And what I mean by political is they 395 00:22:40,140 --> 00:22:45,519 designed it precisely to function with all of the things 396 00:22:45,579 --> 00:22:50,279 that Representative Green says these articles are not about. It 397 00:22:50,339 --> 00:22:55,589 was designed to be drawn along partisan lines, whether or 398 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,730 not articles of impeachment actually go forward. And so The 399 00:23:01,789 --> 00:23:06,279 difference is that there's also a legal process, which is 400 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:12,779 based more on the law, the evidence, etc. And for impeachment, 401 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,059 it's a horse of a different color. So unfortunately, the 402 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,220 impeachment process is all about partisanship. It's all about left 403 00:23:22,299 --> 00:23:26,789 and right. It's all about Democrat versus Republican. It's not 404 00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:30,569 really about right and wrong at all. If you remember, 405 00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:37,869 President Clinton was impeached for conduct that didn't arguably didn't 406 00:23:38,049 --> 00:23:42,299 really have anything to do with his abilities or his 407 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,140 policies or any criminal behavior that he engaged in. So 408 00:23:48,339 --> 00:23:52,319 I think, again, Representative Green has the right spirit, but 409 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:59,849 that's not the right venue to expect results, especially if 410 00:24:00,009 --> 00:24:03,190 it is about right and wrong. Now, Tavis, the broken 411 00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:07,599 clock is right twice a day, right? Every now and then, 412 00:24:08,099 --> 00:24:18,849 Congress might do something important morally that's also important from 413 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,789 a policy standpoint, but that's not really the norm. in 414 00:24:22,849 --> 00:24:27,230 that institution of American public life. So, again, I think 415 00:24:27,309 --> 00:24:30,069 it's the right spirit, but I think he's in the 416 00:24:30,130 --> 00:24:34,130 wrong venue to expect those kind of results. And if 417 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,980 Representative Jeffries is trying to go after the Trump administration 418 00:24:42,819 --> 00:24:46,200 or the people in what he calls the Trump cartel, 419 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:51,039 I think what he has to understand is if Democrats 420 00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:57,980 do win the House, in November, then they better get 421 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,559 down to the business of addressing all these issues of 422 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:07,960 affordability that are so important to everyone. Because if they 423 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:13,190 assume power and they spend their time trying to exact 424 00:25:13,289 --> 00:25:18,150 vengeance on the Trump administration through impeachment, that's going to 425 00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:22,880 be a huge distraction for to the affordability issues that 426 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,400 are so important to average everyday Americans. 427 00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:29,210 Speaker 1: Speaking of everyday Americans, if you are an everyday listener 428 00:25:29,230 --> 00:25:33,829 to this program, we're now 2-0 with lead guests two 429 00:25:33,869 --> 00:25:37,269 days in a row who argue that strategically it would 430 00:25:37,289 --> 00:25:40,210 be a mistake for Democrats to go down the impeachment 431 00:25:40,259 --> 00:25:44,099 path that Al Green has suggested, and Democrats ought to 432 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,920 spend their time, if they get the gavel back, working 433 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,359 on these affordability issues that everybody spends so much time 434 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:53,690 talking about. Eli Addy, who was a former White House speechwriter, 435 00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:56,710 was our lead guest yesterday. That was his opinion yesterday. 436 00:25:56,769 --> 00:25:58,849 Here comes Tim Golden. I didn't see that coming. But 437 00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:01,730 here comes Tim Golden a day later agreeing with Eli 438 00:26:01,849 --> 00:26:04,710 Addy that Democrats would not be well served to spend 439 00:26:04,769 --> 00:26:08,910 time on impeachment proceedings. But here's the rub for me, Tim, 440 00:26:09,059 --> 00:26:11,799 as I said yesterday to Eli Addy. I hear the 441 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,240 point you and Eli are making strategically. What that suggests 442 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:17,910 to me then is that you and Eli are going 443 00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:21,130 to let Donald Trump, you're okay with Donald Trump getting 444 00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:24,349 away with his high crimes and misdemeanors. So when you 445 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:27,880 talk about holding him accountable, when Hakeem Jeffrey says we're 446 00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:30,420 going to hold accountable every member of the Trump cartel, 447 00:26:30,779 --> 00:26:32,859 then it's a bunch of nonsense. You don't really mean it. 448 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,440 Because if the decision is already made that it's bad 449 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,319 strategically to spend time going after impeachment, we got to 450 00:26:39,369 --> 00:26:41,309 show the American people what we can do to make 451 00:26:41,349 --> 00:26:44,450 their lives better and working on these affordability issues, which 452 00:26:44,589 --> 00:26:47,980 I get, then how does Donald Trump ever get held accountable? 453 00:26:48,019 --> 00:26:51,259 You just said that impeachment is the wrong process. So 454 00:26:51,299 --> 00:26:53,640 what is the right process? What is the right path? 455 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,440 What is the right venue? Or is Donald Trump just 456 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:57,619 going to get away with all of this? 457 00:26:59,089 --> 00:27:04,029 Speaker 2: Well, something interesting happened in the wake of January 6th 458 00:27:04,609 --> 00:27:09,150 and Trump's second impeachment. All of the Republicans were talking 459 00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:12,779 about look, this is a political process. Trump could be 460 00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:16,299 indicted when he leaves office and so forth and so on. 461 00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:19,940 So that's why I'm voting no to remove him from office. 462 00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:24,240 A number of Republican senators said that during the impeachment trial. 463 00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:30,609 The problem that we have now is theoretically you can't 464 00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:34,769 rely on the Justice Department the way you could because 465 00:27:35,009 --> 00:27:40,079 all of those institutional barriers have been broken down and 466 00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:43,000 at least I'm sure Trump is going to make certain 467 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,160 the way he has with his illegal appointments to go 468 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:52,140 after people like Letitia James and other of his foes, 469 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:58,279 he is essentially protected by the Supreme Court of the 470 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,140 United States in the Trump versus United States decision. So, Tavis, 471 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:09,220 I don't know if the answer to your question is, 472 00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:14,869 could be that Trump would ever be held accountable for 473 00:28:14,910 --> 00:28:22,240 any of this. And perhaps that may lead to outrage, 474 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:25,660 but I think a political calculation has to be made. 475 00:28:27,339 --> 00:28:30,829 Trump for two more years? Trump for two more years, 476 00:28:31,349 --> 00:28:37,519 there's another presidential election, or you expend your capital on 477 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,700 an impeachment process in which you likely will not have 478 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,160 the votes because the Senate has to vote to remove 479 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:48,299 him if he is impeached. So you've got to take 480 00:28:48,339 --> 00:28:50,960 the House and the Senate, and you've got to hope 481 00:28:51,019 --> 00:28:56,000 that works. And if it doesn't, and the affordability issues 482 00:28:56,259 --> 00:29:00,059 are perceived as being ignored, then in 28, you have 483 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:06,289 another problem because the Congress and Senate are, I mean, 484 00:29:06,349 --> 00:29:09,029 everybody in Congress is, well, not everybody, but everybody in 485 00:29:09,069 --> 00:29:11,710 the House is going to be up for re-election again, 486 00:29:11,730 --> 00:29:15,049 and they're going to be facing this difficulty. And so 487 00:29:15,130 --> 00:29:20,650 my question is, if this is the place where we 488 00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:26,740 found ourselves, Then the question for me is, how did 489 00:29:26,819 --> 00:29:30,730 we get here and what will it take to undo 490 00:29:31,369 --> 00:29:34,650 this situation where we're essentially stuck? 491 00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:38,029 Speaker 1: Those are legitimate questions. I just don't think the answer 492 00:29:38,170 --> 00:29:41,460 is either or. I think the answer is both and. 493 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,339 Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, what Tim Golden just 494 00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:47,359 told you, the brilliant Tim Golden, and he's right about it. 495 00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:49,359 I hate to admit it, but he's right. What Tim 496 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,579 Golden just told you, if I can just break it down, 497 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,940 is that Donald Trump has not and will never be 498 00:29:55,980 --> 00:30:00,339 held accountable by the court system He has not and 499 00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,099 he will not be held to account by the United 500 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:07,049 States Congress. He has not and will not ever be 501 00:30:07,069 --> 00:30:11,930 held to account by any international court. He has not 502 00:30:12,029 --> 00:30:14,650 and will not ever be held accountable by the Supreme Court, 503 00:30:15,089 --> 00:30:18,470 the highest court in the land, given the immunity that 504 00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:21,829 they've already given him on pretty much everything. And I 505 00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:24,349 think you can deduce from that that Donald Trump is 506 00:30:24,430 --> 00:30:29,109 going to get away with every single thing he has 507 00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:33,599 done and every single thing he will do between now 508 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:42,720 and the time he leaves office, if, if he leaves office. 509 00:30:43,259 --> 00:30:46,000 But I digress for now. You're listening to Tavis. You 510 00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:48,519 are indeed inside the Tavis and Tim show, the Tim 511 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:50,589 and Tavis show. This happens every so many weeks, and 512 00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:53,789 I'm always pleased to have Tim Golden on this program. Tim, 513 00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:56,349 no naivete here, as I often say, but I know 514 00:30:56,369 --> 00:30:59,529 the audience is processing the your commentary the same way 515 00:30:59,589 --> 00:31:02,369 I'm processing it, which is essentially that Donald Trump is 516 00:31:02,390 --> 00:31:04,650 going to get away literally with murder. He's getting away 517 00:31:04,690 --> 00:31:09,299 with everything. And every time I process this in my 518 00:31:09,380 --> 00:31:12,440 own head, I think about Letitia and Jamal. I think 519 00:31:12,460 --> 00:31:15,059 about Jose and Maria, all these black and brown people 520 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,980 in the country who could never imagine just getting away 521 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:23,079 with this. And here's the insult. What's that old adage? 522 00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,500 Here's the pouring of salt into the wound. It's not 523 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,900 just that Donald Trump gets away with it is that 524 00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:33,710 he's getting all of his friends off. I mean, he 525 00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:36,890 pardoned all those insurrectionists. So it's not just him getting 526 00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:41,910 away with it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Leader Jeffries, you're wrong. 527 00:31:42,490 --> 00:31:44,869 The Democrats are not going to hold every member of 528 00:31:44,910 --> 00:31:47,279 the Trump cartel accountable because if they tried to do that, 529 00:31:47,740 --> 00:31:50,779 Donald Trump still has the power to pardon every member 530 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,539 of his cartel. So it's not just Donald Trump. It's 531 00:31:53,619 --> 00:31:55,339 everybody in the cartel is going to get away with 532 00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:55,700 it to him. 533 00:31:56,730 --> 00:32:01,230 Speaker 2: It's everybody. It's everybody, Tavis. Everybody is going to get 534 00:32:01,269 --> 00:32:05,220 away with it. We're talking about somebody. In fact, in fact, 535 00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:08,220 I don't think this is a controversial claim to make. 536 00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:12,750 Donald Trump ran for president to keep himself out of prison. 537 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:13,029 Speaker 3: Yep. 538 00:32:14,059 --> 00:32:18,339 Speaker 2: He ran for president two years ago with the hope 539 00:32:18,819 --> 00:32:23,279 that if he won, all of his legal troubles would 540 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:28,279 go away. And that's exactly what happened. And so he 541 00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:31,839 ran for president to stay out of jail. And now 542 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,640 that he knows, because here's the thing, those prosecutions are gone. 543 00:32:37,259 --> 00:32:41,029 They're not coming back. They're gone forever. And there were 544 00:32:41,109 --> 00:32:46,769 four of them. And they're all gone. So he ran 545 00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:49,869 for president to stay out of prison. And now that 546 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:54,329 he won the election, he can ensure that he will 547 00:32:54,390 --> 00:32:57,930 not be held accountable to anybody except E. Gene Carroll 548 00:32:58,609 --> 00:32:59,730 for $ 5. 8 million. 549 00:33:00,049 --> 00:33:03,819 Speaker 1: And except E. Gene Carroll and one other person who 550 00:33:03,859 --> 00:33:06,519 sits high and looks low. He's still going to be 551 00:33:06,539 --> 00:33:08,839 held accountable to that person that sits high and looks low. 552 00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:12,259 None of us. gets away with everything, even when we 553 00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:15,140 think we do. There is a God that we all 554 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:16,720 have to answer to at some point. I don't mean 555 00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:20,220 to be sacrilegious or proselytize here, but he's going to 556 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,589 be held to account one day for all the damage 557 00:33:23,619 --> 00:33:25,490 he's done to so many other people. It might not 558 00:33:25,549 --> 00:33:28,390 be by the Congress, by the Supreme Court, or any 559 00:33:28,450 --> 00:33:30,650 national court, or even by the American people, but at 560 00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:32,289 some point he's going to have to give an answer 561 00:33:32,829 --> 00:33:35,470 for all his dastardly deeds. I digress on that for now. 562 00:33:35,539 --> 00:33:38,000 When we come forward, not that Donald Trump cares about this, 563 00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:41,259 Because as we've just discussed, he's getting away with everything anyway. 564 00:33:41,539 --> 00:33:44,309 So does it really matter to him that he's underwater 565 00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:47,490 in 47 states? Likely not. We'll talk about it anyway 566 00:33:47,529 --> 00:33:50,250 with Tim Golden on Tavis Smart. Donald Trump's approval rating 567 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:58,410 is a negative 26. Negative 26. He's down even more 568 00:33:58,470 --> 00:34:02,059 so from last week. He is now underwater in 47 states. 569 00:34:02,539 --> 00:34:05,359 I asked Tim Golden, does it really matter? Does he care? No. 570 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:11,539 Speaker 2: Yes, Tevis. I'm sorry. 571 00:34:13,179 --> 00:34:17,469 Speaker 1: No, that wasn't rhetorical. That was not rhetorical. Does it 572 00:34:17,489 --> 00:34:18,750 really matter? Does he care? 573 00:34:18,769 --> 00:34:23,789 Speaker 2: I don't think... I think he cares at this point. 574 00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:28,309 For him, it's about his legacy. Assuming he doesn't try 575 00:34:28,349 --> 00:34:31,449 to upend the Constitution and run for a third term. 576 00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:36,840 Or somehow try to finagle his way into a third term. 577 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:42,679 So I think it It matters for him in terms 578 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:48,179 of legacy. As a practical matter, because the Supreme Court 579 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,280 has been so friendly to him, I think he is 580 00:34:53,409 --> 00:34:58,829 pretty safe from criminal prosecution once he leaves office. And 581 00:34:58,849 --> 00:35:02,869 I think he will ride that off into the sunset. 582 00:35:03,309 --> 00:35:08,469 What has really... perhaps deluded him to this point, and 583 00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:11,030 you and I have talked about this before, Tavis, is 584 00:35:11,110 --> 00:35:14,369 that despite him being underwater in so many of these 585 00:35:14,429 --> 00:35:19,530 states in the primary seasons that we've been experiencing this year, 586 00:35:19,550 --> 00:35:25,190 his candidates who he has endorsed have come out smelling 587 00:35:25,250 --> 00:35:29,449 like roses. And that's a good thing, but the problem 588 00:35:29,610 --> 00:35:34,260 is that those are not national elections, right? We're typically 589 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,250 talking about congressional elections, House elections, where people are voting 590 00:35:39,469 --> 00:35:44,650 only in one district. And so we'll see what comes 591 00:35:44,730 --> 00:35:48,570 of that. But in the end, it may not matter. 592 00:35:48,869 --> 00:35:52,750 It may not matter at all. But again, he's not 593 00:35:52,789 --> 00:35:57,710 going to... Theoretically, he can't run again. But theoretically, it 594 00:35:57,789 --> 00:36:01,889 has to be underscored big time because... And upending the 595 00:36:01,929 --> 00:36:04,170 Constitution has never stopped him before. 596 00:36:04,449 --> 00:36:07,030 Speaker 1: Mayor Andre Dickens finally here. Got 60 seconds to go. 597 00:36:07,090 --> 00:36:09,250 Andre Dickens, mayor of Atlanta, has sent a letter out 598 00:36:10,070 --> 00:36:13,780 addressed to Atlanta, the South, and all Democrats. The DNC 599 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,199 continues to make the wrong choices. He goes on to 600 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,159 go in on this in this letter on the Democratic Party. 601 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,980 Ken Martin, the Democratic chairperson, they made a huge mistake 602 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:26,800 not choosing Atlanta. The final three cities for the convention 603 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,239 in 2038 are Boston, Philly, and Denver. We'll see which 604 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,630 of those three wins. Andy Beshear, governor of Kentucky, has 605 00:36:32,989 --> 00:36:35,769 sided with Andre Dickens, mayor of Atlanta, saying this is 606 00:36:35,809 --> 00:36:39,190 not a good decision. In a quick 30 seconds, I'm 607 00:36:39,210 --> 00:36:40,869 not sure it matters where the convention is, but it 608 00:36:40,929 --> 00:36:43,730 does make a statement. This is a controversy now about 609 00:36:43,769 --> 00:36:45,750 whether or not the DNC is ignoring black voters. 610 00:36:46,889 --> 00:36:50,039 Speaker 2: I think the Atlanta mayor and the Kentucky governor are correct. 611 00:36:50,579 --> 00:36:53,360 This would have been the perfect time to host the 612 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,599 convention in Atlanta, especially given Given the importance of black 613 00:36:59,659 --> 00:37:03,840 voting rights and black political power, the recent Calais decision 614 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:08,679 of the Supreme Court, I think Atlanta was a prime 615 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:15,179 opportunity for the Democratic Party to saturate itself in the 616 00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:19,719 richness of black history. at a time when black history 617 00:37:20,019 --> 00:37:24,619 is so profoundly under attack by an administration that's fundamentally, 618 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,800 at its core, white supremacist. 619 00:37:27,139 --> 00:37:29,710 Speaker 1: Nope. It's a strong letter. You should just Google it. 620 00:37:30,030 --> 00:37:33,090 Google the letter written by Mayor Andre Dickens to Atlanta, 621 00:37:33,110 --> 00:37:34,750 the South, and all Democrats. I ain't got time to 622 00:37:34,789 --> 00:37:39,780 go through it. It's a strong letter. He wasn't feeling 623 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,820 this decision. I digress for now. Tim Gordon, we'll talk 624 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,840 again soon. Take care of yourself. 625 00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:45,489 Speaker 2: Yes, sir. Thank you, Tavis. Take care. 626 00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:47,329 Speaker 1: One hour down, two to go. You're listening, and I'm 627 00:37:47,369 --> 00:37:48,329 glad about it to Tavis Smart.