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Speaker 1: All right, welcome to another open chat. Hopefully it will work.

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Speaker 2: As I'm on the road, it's always a toss up,

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you never know, but we'll go to shot.

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Speaker 3: Hey, how's it going.

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Speaker 4: Or I was supposed to speak earlier on my personal

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account and then I don't know what happened. It's like

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I got banned or something, but that it was really

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weird and I wasn't able to actually.

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Speaker 1: You multiple times.

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Speaker 3: My bad about that. My headphones must have been glitchen.

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Speaker 4: But so I want to first of all say that

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I'm a huge fan of the stuff you've done exposing

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like Hollywood occultism, and you've been an influence on me

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as far as like orthodoxy goes. My girlfriend and i've

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been attending Orthodox churches when we can for the last

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several months. So definitely a big fan of you in

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that regard. But I've never been I don't fully I've

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been like an advocate for libertarianism for quite a long

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time now. I you know, I've seen the last twenty

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or so years of like socialism and war in central

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banking and forced integration and all this horrible stuff and

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seems to come from the state, and I've always seemed

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or I've always felt that libertarianism or anarchic capitalism or

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whatever do you want to call it would be a

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pretty you know, logical response to all that stuff like

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reinforcing property rights and whatnot. What is I don't fully

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understand where you're coming from when you criticize libertarianism.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you can.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I have a question, are you are you? Are

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you orthodox? First of all, I'm just was curious.

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Speaker 4: I have not converted yet, I'm planning on doing so.

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There's a lot going on in my personal life right

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at the moment, So I'm in. I talked to my

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priests on a weekly basis and he's, uh, I had

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to move to a town.

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Speaker 3: It's a long story, but I'm I'm getting there.

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Speaker 2: Well, so you're are you inquiring or are you a catechumen?

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Speaker 4: I am not a catechumen yet. I guess I guess

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you would say I'm inquiring, but I was gotcha, gotcha?

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Very recently my priest has very recently been urging me

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to become a catechumen, and it's definitely like something I

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really wanted to.

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Speaker 5: Well, I just I'll add.

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Speaker 6: This because I think it's just generally a correct Christian

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principle and cleaveyord member that this came up when we

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were talking last for Father Stephen Deyong about obedience, and

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so clearly an Orthodoxy there's a stress on and it's

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not blind obedience, right, but the notion of kind of

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a hierarchy, and that you make yourself obedient to somebody,

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not when you I'm only obedient when I agree. And

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I was thinking about that, I'm like, well, that's really

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interesting because that flies in the face of libertarianism. No,

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it doesn't, based on voluntarism.

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Speaker 1: That's wrong.

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Speaker 4: So libertarianism is libertarianism is fine with hierarchy if the

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hierarchy is not coercive.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, yeah, that he's not talking about. He's not

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talking about physical coercion. He's talking about within the church.

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Speaker 5: For example, Orthodox somehow, Yeah, Orthodox you would maintain that.

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Speaker 6: You're bound legally by secular even legal authorities, whether you

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agree to it or not.

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Speaker 4: So that's interesting and that's not something that I've delved

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into deep into too deeply myself. I have asked my

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priest the question of like, well, how does what does

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what does Orthodox you have to say about this, like

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the role of the state or whatever. And he didn't

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really He gave me an answer that was more like, oh, well,

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like we don't endorse politicians at this church.

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Speaker 3: I think he kind of misunderstood my question.

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Speaker 2: But so the role of church and state is a

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classical Christian teaching that the state has a duty to

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obey God into enact Christian principles.

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Speaker 1: That's the tradition of the church.

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Speaker 6: Okay, So, and there's a good document I'd recommend it

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was a two thousand and it's from the Russian Church

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a two thousand.

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Speaker 5: It was the Year of Jubilee.

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Speaker 6: On Relations of Church and State, where it kind of

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defines these things and it admits that we live in

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a fallen world. There's no kind of perfect in practice

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form of government. But it does say that the only

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in theory sanctioned form of government is monarchy. And in

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principle absolutely the state has the right, is a God

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given right to course force you against your will. And

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so I was just thinking about it, like it's just

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totally incompatible with libertarianism.

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Speaker 4: So what was that document called? You said it was

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on Relations of Church and State? Who is that by

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the Russian Church?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Russian Church Statement on Christian Government and nationalism. It's

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just for stating kind of the classical view. But the

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Church has always had a coronation service, which is a

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quasi sacramental service for the anointing of a king. So

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there's thousands of saints that are monarchists, thousands of saints

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that have been under monarchies. They talk about Christian monarchy,

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none of them talk about democracy, none of them talk

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about libertarianism. So the mind of the saints, the mind

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of the Church, is not classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So you're saying, you're basically saying that the Church

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advocates for monarchism. That's just not something that I'm that

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aware of and the something I certainly need to do

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more research than my own into sok.

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Speaker 2: Entire, entire history of the Church is the imperium, the

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Byzantine imperium, So from Constantine all the way up to

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you know, fourteen ninety three, nineteen niney three with the

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fall of Constantinople, and then even after that the Russian

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state has you know, there's a Christian state. So the

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idea of a Christian state is Christianity. That's antithetical to

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classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment. So but the stuff

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that you mentioned is like, that's not really essentially libertarianism, right,

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private property, that's based on the Tank Commandments. Uh, you know,

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but the question of whether the state has a role

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in one's life and whether God providentially established the state. Well,

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in Romans thirteen, Paul says that Nero has the sword,

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he is a diaconos.

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Speaker 1: Even if he doesn't act right, he is still the authority.

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Speaker 4: Are you saying that libertarianism doesn't advocate for property rights,

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private property rights.

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Speaker 5: No, we're saying, oh, how.

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Speaker 1: Could you get anything like that from what I said.

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Speaker 3: I thought maybe I misarged you. I thought you said

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you were like.

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Speaker 5: That's not the defining simply the defining feature.

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Speaker 2: Uh yeah, So that's not orthodox especially property, private property rights.

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Speaker 5: It's based in the Ten Commandments, is what Jay was saying.

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So you can't simply define libertarianism is in terms of

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private property. And that's why I said libertarians is committed

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to voluntarism, and voluntarism is rejected by orthodoxy. Now in

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the Church there's voluntarism right, like, but that's what we

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call is the way the church and ecclesiology works is

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different than state because they're two different spheres. But the

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Church ordains ideally.

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Speaker 6: You know, the king or the emperor, and that the

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politicians are informed in terms of virtue in their.

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Speaker 5: Spiritual life by the Church.

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Speaker 6: But the way that the state can actually coerse it's like,

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so voluntarism doesn't exist in an Orthodox state because the

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state has the right to course you to do anything

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by virtue of the law.

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Speaker 5: In the church practice, priests wouldn't do.

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Speaker 6: That, right, they have a prescriptive much like a doctor.

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It's like, we prescribe that you do this, but you're

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free to be wrong, and you're free to hurt yourself,

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like we just recommend that you don't. So there's a

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type of kind of voluntarism in the way of kind

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of practice in the church. But in terms of state relations, absolutely,

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the Orthodox Church believes the state and statesmen have the

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right to course you by by law and power.

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Speaker 2: This off it comes up if you look at the

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first debate I did ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: It was with Adam Kokash, the libertarian dude.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, okay, well we we've go and check out our

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debate from ten years One thing that one thing I

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think is a good example of this is like, you

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don't have the right in a Christian state to erect

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giant billboards of bastiality on your property because it's your property.

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Speaker 1: So even your property.

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Speaker 2: Has limitations on what you can do. And the state

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has the right to tell you. No state has the

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right to enact the death penalty. All these things are

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rights that the state has. Now, the state can go

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out of its bound and become you know, rebellious and

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become attempt to be godlike, but that's when the Christian

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has the duty to be a martyr. Uh, And the

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state has a duty to a higher authority who's to God.

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Speaker 4: So well, I'm glady, because my next question was going

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to be like, how do you maintain a state that

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is acting godly?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 4: It seems to me that the state is very prone

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to outgrowing the bounds that it was set for, and

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it'll always.

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Speaker 1: That's always the temptation for the state.

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Speaker 2: But there's also countless Christian kings and saints in the

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history of the Church who have had and maintained Christian kingdom,

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so it has happened. But also you're right that there's

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signs where the state goes outside the bounds of its

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own authority and for example, tries to control the church,

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right the American's deep state right now try to control

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the Orthodox the Catholic Church during the Cold War.

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Speaker 1: So they stopped this all the time. So this is

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absolutely true, right right?

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well this has been very eye opening for me,

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this short interaction. I don't want to take up too

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much time. And sorry, that's a great question at acting.

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Speaker 2: If you look up, I've got a lot of videos

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critiquing you know, sort of the basic the Pratrian dug

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ideas of perspective going back about ten years.

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Speaker 1: But great questions.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate that, father, you get you didn't say much on

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the preemptive strikes topic. Did you did you not want

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to opine on that or is it too is that

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too harry of a topic for clergy or what do

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you think about that?

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Speaker 1: I just don't think Marco Rubio, is this never.

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Speaker 6: And it's kind of similar to it's kind of similar

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to the libertarian kind of arguments about like well what

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constitutes uh, you know, aggression and stuff like that. So look,

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we can start with the clearcases and then move it's

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going to get into you know, as you move farther

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away from the clearcases, it gets muddied, and there are

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obviously positions where I'm like, I don't know, but the

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clearcas is obviously a pre exemptive strike is if there's

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an imminent threatned physical danger.

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Speaker 2: Well but but the but if if but if you

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see he said that before, he said that should have

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happened fifty years ago, preempt to strikes. But I'm thinking, well,

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wait a minute. If that's the basis for why you

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would do a preemptive strike is their capabilities to attack

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the West, then you would essentially have to do a

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preemptive strike on any country that's not aligned with the

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West because they have the ability to attack the West.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's I've made that argument too, where you know,

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there are some boomers like Iran's the greatest threat to America.

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Speaker 5: They're probably killing babies with.

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Speaker 6: Gas, right, like all this kind of stuff. I'm like, well,

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first of all, make the argument without lyne. Right, I'm

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not saying they're a great nation. But I brought up

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that point too. Then why not the other nation? Like

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like there's something not being truthful, right, if like if

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that justifies and I'm not even against in principle, then.

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Speaker 2: We would have to do preemptive strikes on Russia, we

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would have to do on North Korea, China, every country

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would have to have premptive strikes.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's like, well, no, no, you can't do that.

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So it just there's ways to show.

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Speaker 5: Like somebody's kind of inconsistency with But I.

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Speaker 6: Mean, first and foremost, if it really is an immin danger,

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but also you know, there's probably you know, threats ideologically,

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I think maybe in certain situations that might even address

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even if somebody is not capable of having a physical

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threat but could get to that point.

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Speaker 5: Maybe yeah, like maybe that would be justified.

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Speaker 6: But you see what I mean, It gets it gets

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more fuzzy the further you go out, and I feel

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less confident in being like, well that's what I mean.

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Speaker 2: At the CAD, the Roman Calvic Church be a greater

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immediate threat because it's behind all the millions of undocumented

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illegals coming in, even more so than Israel. So that

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I guess we're supposed to like premptively strike the Vatican

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or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, see what the problem is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like really.

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Speaker 2: Look to your level stuff and how do you determine

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like you're saying, like what the most dangerous imminent threat is,

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because I mean, yeah, perhaps in ICBM if if it

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hit the right target. But at the same time, it's like, well,

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that's thirty forty fifty million illegals coming into the country.

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I mean, how do you It's hard to determine, you see,

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which of those is quote worse right, Miles, what's up?

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Speaker 1: Hello? Yeah? What's up? Hey?

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Speaker 7: How's it going.

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Speaker 8: I'm baptized Eastern Orthodox and I'm trying to learn more

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about it. So just a disclaimer, I might be asking

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some very very basic and elementary questions.

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Speaker 1: Firs.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, if it's too basic, just let me know and

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I can maybe go to somewhere that you can.

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Speaker 1: Everybody in here is a basic bitch, all right.

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Speaker 8: I wanted to ask, like, when when a priest blesses

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let's say the anaphora or I take you know, holy water,

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or I bless the house, what is it? What is happening?

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What does a blessing mean? If I get blessed by

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a bishop? What is blessing?

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Speaker 2: I think it's just supposed to signify, sanctifying, setting apart

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for God's service and also hopefully a participation in the

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divine energies, because we think that all of these sacramental reality,

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whether they're icons or holy water or you know, being

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annointed with oil, you know, we are looking towards and

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praying to be participating in some measure of divine grace,

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which is the unfitted energies.

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Speaker 7: Okay, so divine grace is the uncreated energies.

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Speaker 1: Correct?

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Speaker 7: What's a I only.

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Speaker 8: Understand the uncreated energies at a very introductory level.

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Speaker 7: What does it mean if I.

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Speaker 8: Have, like is, are the uncreated energies now in the

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holy water?

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Speaker 7: Is that what that means?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Actually, in the baptism, right, the priest prays and puts

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the cross in the water and asks that God's uncreated

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energies come down into the font. So, just like in

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Christ himself, you have, for example, the incarnation, a joining

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of the human nature and the divine nature.

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Speaker 1: There's a synergy there.

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Speaker 2: So likewise, the same idea with the sacraments is that

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there's a joining of the uncreated power of God to

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the created elements of bread, wine, water, et cetera. The

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idea is that there's a synergy a both and in

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this in these sacraments.

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Speaker 8: Okay, and in that way, when I annoy myself with

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oil or drink holy water, I'm directly experiencing God's and

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created energies.

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Speaker 1: Well that's what we're praying for.

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Speaker 2: Whether or not we experience that is actually up to

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ourselves on our own disposition. So God's energies are actually

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everywhere present, and were we to be in the right

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disposition and state of repentance, we would experience them. So

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really that's up to us on our side of you know,

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human action and repentance as to what we what we

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get out of these rituals and liturgies.

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Speaker 8: Okay, so the same the same holy water could be

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I don't know, edifying for me. Let's say if I'm

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in a state of repentance and belief, but does absolutely

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nothing to an atheist for example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or it could actually drive them crazy if they're

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demonically possessed, they could actually hate it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, oh wow.

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Speaker 8: Okay, And so let's say I am in a state

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of repent and belief and I have this holy water.

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Speaker 7: What happens to me? What actually changes?

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Speaker 9: Will?

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Speaker 2: The Church Fathers described the process of grace as a

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never ending upward spiral into God. So basically, the Bible

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speaks in a kind of a mysterious way that we

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partake of God in greater and greater measures, even though

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God cannot be apportioned by measure. So this is kind

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of what's called it antonomical statement.

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Speaker 1: It's a statement that appears to be a contradiction, but.

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Speaker 2: It's not, because we're speaking about something that's above the

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laws of logic. So even though God can't be contained,

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he still willed to become contained in the womb of

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the Virgin. Even though God can't be apportioned out by measure,

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he willed to be divided by measure amongst his saints.

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So Paul talks about in the Escaton greater and greater

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degrees of deification. So there's a mystery involved in this,

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and the mystery.

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Speaker 1: Is that you can never get full of God's grace.

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You will always be infinitely moving into God's grace.

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Speaker 7: Uh okay, that makes sense. So okay.

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Speaker 8: The definition that I understand of uncreated energies is like

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the word energy is God's actions.

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Speaker 7: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: It's God's actions, It's God's mind.

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Speaker 2: It's excuse me, this God's divine ideas that are called

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the logi. It's God's attributes, it's God's operations. All of

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those things are at times called energies or works or operations.

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So the word is welf means work and are gay

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at work. But in the New Testament multiple things are

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ascribed as works. Sometimes they're called God's powers plural.

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Speaker 10: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And then when the Western Church sometimes they say, you know,

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the attributes of God for us, that's the same thing

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as the divine energies. So when Jesus says, for example

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John seventeen, that he came to give us a share

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in the glory that he had with the Father before

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the foundation of the world, uncreated glory is uncreated, grace

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is uncreated, light is uncreated, love, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 8: Okay, And so sorry, how do we define attrib You

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see like God's attributes?

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Speaker 7: Is it like glory, light, love? Are those attributes?

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Speaker 5: Sure?

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying the Western Church tends to talk about

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the divine attributes. God has the attribute of omniscience, omnipresidence, love, justice,

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et cetera. And all I'm saying is that when the

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Orthodox Church says energies, they're referring to the same thing

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that they mean. But our theology is a little more

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precise because it's also God's creative actions and powers that

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are energies as well.

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Speaker 8: Okay, okay, because my confusion was I originally thought energies

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men actions. And when you say that divine, his uncreated

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energies are in like the holy water of the oil,

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I think, how are someone's actions in a thing?

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Speaker 1: Well, it is that.

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Speaker 2: If you look at letter two thirty four, Basil says

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God's essence is unknown, but the divine energies or operations

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come down to us.

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Speaker 1: And so what comes down to us.

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Speaker 2: Is his love, his foreign alogy is providence, his power,

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his mercy, et cetera. So it's referring to the same stuff. So,

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for example, God is omnipresident omnipresence is a divine energy

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for us.

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Speaker 8: Oh wow, okay, that's new to me. Okay, I think

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I had just one more question and it just slipped

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my mind. Oh okay, So the oil is blessed by

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the priest when we annoyed ourselves water, you know, the house,

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but when we I don't know if this is an

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Orthodox thing.

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Speaker 7: At least I've been doing it.

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Speaker 8: You know, you kind of pray before a meal, ask

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the Lord to bless the food and drink for a servant.

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So can anybody bless because from what I understand, it's

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always the priests that are blessing things. But I'm now blessing.

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Speaker 2: You're the priest of your household, right, so yes, you

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can pray and bless the food. However, if a priest

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is president, you defer to the higher authority, and the

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priest blesses the food, just like the priest would defers

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to the bishop of the bishops around.

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Speaker 8: Oh wow, okay, wow, all right, now, okay, I'm the

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priest of the household.

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Speaker 7: Do you mean like as virtue of being a man

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or like a man of the household?

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Speaker 8: Oh okay, okay, okay, So if I'm in like the

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presence of my wife, I should be the one asking.

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Speaker 2: Says that the house hold is a little church.

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Speaker 11: So yes, great, wow, okay a j thank you so much.

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I really appreciate I appreciate the thank you. Yeah, okay, care,

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I appreciate it, aid he can you hear me, Jake Aiden?

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And then Jay, Yeah, what's up?

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Speaker 12: I had a little bit of a question about the

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like Iran more in a little bit to do with

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the elites. If that's all right, sure, So, like I know,

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if I'm correct, both are of course the right wing

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you had, like the heavy Zionist fund by Israel and

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the Rothschild's Like is the left the same way?

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Speaker 1: Would you say, what do you mean, like, uh.

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Speaker 12: Is it like the same elites? You would say behind

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the left ultimately.

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Speaker 2: I mean, for example, left socialism that supports Palestinians. I mean,

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they might have a difference on the issue of Israel self,

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but in the big picture they're all still pretty much

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under the aegis and the banner of globalization. So there's

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a little bit of disagreement, but in the long term, no,

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it's just a disagreement over whether you know, there'll be

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an Israeli priority to the new world order or will

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there be some sort of just international socialists United Nations

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style technocracy.

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Speaker 12: So just like two different sides of the puzzle.

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Speaker 2: I would say, two factions of internationalism or two factions

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of how they would like to see.

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Speaker 1: The future cut. There's also overlap.

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Speaker 2: There's also over lot because all the early Zionists were

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all socialists. So yeah, I think socialism, you know, is

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always kind of bound up with a lot of Jewish worldview.

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Ideology and in terms of its origins and ethos, I mean,

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it's not totally bound up with that, because you can

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find it in Plato. A lot of modern socialism marks

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within communism obviously is oftentimes tied with you know, Jewish

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type movement Bolsheviks, et cetera, as well as utopian socialism

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coming out of Moses has the forefather of modern Zionism.

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Speaker 1: So those things overlap.

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Speaker 2: But you might have some internationalists who don't even think

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there should be a nation's date. They don't care if

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there's a nation state of Israel, whereas others think that

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Israel itself could be the center of the future world government.

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Many of the Zionist writers wrote that way Joe Ziowa's up, dog.

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Speaker 9: Do you hear me?

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Speaker 1: What's up? Man? Hey man?

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Speaker 9: I was just asking, so my wife and I she

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went to her first divine energy this past Sunday. Okay,

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I've been this probably my fourth time this week. So

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she is you know, we're used to a Pentecostal type environment,

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charismatic and what is the easiest way to I mean,

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I've heard not to even really even try to debate her,

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you know, but just the Mary stuff and the saints.

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Speaker 13: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: Sorry if I sound that out of us, I'm at

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the gym.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, go ahead and repeat your question. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 9: So yeah, just what would your advice be on guiding

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her into the what seems to be very weird environment

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of liturgy and saints and all that.

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Speaker 5: I guess that's the question.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I guess that really just depends on

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how interested in the theology she is, or is she

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just kind of looking for community. A lot of times

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women and wives and girlfriends aren't that interested in the theology.

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They're more interested in meeting nice people. So, or is

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she interested in theology and she wants to know why

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we do what we do? It depends on who she

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is and how she operates.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I would say I'm the one that's more interested

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in the theology. But at the same time, I feel

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like that door is popping open here here and there

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when he.

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Speaker 1: Could explain that.

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Speaker 2: You know, like when I went on that podcast with

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that evangelical dude a couple of days ago that he

470
00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:58,720
just posted yesterday. I mean, he was asking very similar questions,

471
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,039
kind of coming from a evangelical, you know, do it

472
00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:05,279
yourself background, and it's like, well, do we ever think

473
00:24:05,319 --> 00:24:08,440
about how did Jesus himself worship the Father. Well, he

474
00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:11,319
went to the temple, into the synagogue, and he worshiped

475
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:17,039
in an ordered liturgical way. They didn't worship like Charismatics

476
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,359
and Pentecostals do with hooting and hollering and flopping around

477
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,279
and barking and yapping and laughing. None of that is

478
00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:28,839
the way that God laid down worship all the way

479
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,920
back to the very beginning. So even Abraham, you know,

480
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,119
Abraham built an altar and called upon God. So there's

481
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,839
always been an altar and liturgical worship for the God

482
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,359
of the Bible. And if you don't have that, then

483
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,640
you've got something else. And you know, worship, if you

484
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,480
read Leviticus ten and eleven, is very important to God.

485
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,599
And if the New Testament doesn't give us a liturgical

486
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,000
worship service, then why would he leave us kind of hanging?

487
00:24:56,079 --> 00:24:57,759
Why is it all up in the air. Why do

488
00:24:57,839 --> 00:24:59,680
we have to just figure it out? Like wouldn't there

489
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,359
be a pattern of worship laid down? And I think

490
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,640
if you start asking those kinds of questions, you know

491
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,079
that kind of when I was Protestant, those kinds of

492
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,519
questions began to click with me because I was like, well,

493
00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:15,400
if I believe in solar scriptia, it doesn't it seem

494
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,480
like God would have laid down the specific like there

495
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,680
would be a new text, you know, a letter from

496
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,720
Paul about how to do the liturgy or something. But

497
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:27,200
you don't have that, So there's a reliance on the

498
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,440
history of the tradition of the church.

499
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: But also, you know, when.

500
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,799
Speaker 2: It comes to speaking in tongues, I mean, in the

501
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:35,920
New Testament, that's always languages.

502
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: It's never gibberish.

503
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,599
Speaker 2: It's never a so called angel language.

504
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:43,519
Speaker 1: Sorry.

505
00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:46,279
Speaker 9: She asked me about that specifically, and when I told

506
00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:49,440
her with an as church believe the way you were

507
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,839
talking about that, she was like, thank God because she

508
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,279
always thought, you know.

509
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it sounds like she's on the right path.

510
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,279
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember at one time I thought that

511
00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:03,519
Paul was saying there's a secret prayer language that you say,

512
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:06,880
that's gibberish. But then I realized, right when he says that,

513
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,480
he's actually just using rhetoric. He's saying, even if I

514
00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:14,119
speak with the tongue of ben and angels, then if

515
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,640
I don't have love, it's worthless. He's not saying there's

516
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,880
actually a secret angel language that you can learn by yapping,

517
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,319
and then some other Pentecostal pastor stands next to you

518
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,799
and quote translates it. It's just silly, but great, great

519
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,240
question at the age you want to comment on Pentecostal stuff.

520
00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: Also, I don't know if you guys saw the stream.

521
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,759
I just did. Tell your wife to watch Testament of

522
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:36,240
ann Lee.

523
00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: I've been telling people, all of you with Pentecostal cares.

524
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,759
My friends tell your tell them to watch that movie,

525
00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:46,279
and then after they watch the movie, say so, don't

526
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:48,480
you think this is kind of crazy?

527
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, yeah, well that's what you guys.

528
00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 6: I was gonna add that I think was the Those

529
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:58,039
questions were the start of me, you know, twenty years ago,

530
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,240
even twenty five thirty years ago, moving into Orthodoxy because

531
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,640
having grown up in Calviy chapels that have kind of

532
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,160
depending on what Calvi Chapel does has kind.

533
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:14,319
Speaker 5: Of more charismatic flares and different places. But it rubbed

534
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:18,759
me the wrong way. And I remember asking questions, liturgical questions,

535
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,720
even at eighteen years old. Can you just worship however

536
00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:24,359
you want? Is there a standard?

537
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:27,799
Speaker 6: And that eventually, you know, many many many years later,

538
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,680
led me to Orthodoxy.

539
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely questions and answers. What's up?

540
00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 14: Go ahead, Hey, Jay, thanks for taking me. I just

541
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:41,319
have a question. I grew up Protestant, and I've heard

542
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,640
you talk about classical Protestantism, specifically you know, Luther and

543
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,880
other major figures of the Reformation, and the difference of

544
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,759
what they think or thought about certain topics versus what

545
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,920
many Protestants today hold to or are against that are

546
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:04,640
Orthodox or Catholic doctrines. I was wondering if you could

547
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,400
just give me a couple of those that you feel

548
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,519
are the most significant or impactful.

549
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: I guess say it really quick again. What was the first?

550
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: What's the difference between modern reform or modern evangelicals and

551
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,799
classical Reformation guys.

552
00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 14: Yes, yeah, that's pretty good summary.

553
00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:24,079
Speaker 2: Well, I did the last stream that I did for

554
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,880
members on this very topic, which was that, basically my

555
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,799
thesis is that the radical Reformation is what ended up

556
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:35,000
winning out most of the magisterial reformers.

557
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,559
Speaker 1: And what we know of as the classical Reformation.

558
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,079
Speaker 2: Guys, their churches and their theology has pretty much died out.

559
00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:42,119
Speaker 1: And what you see in a lot.

560
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: Of these evangelical churches, non denominational megachurches is really no

561
00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:51,880
different than the overall ethos of the Radical Reformation people,

562
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,559
because again go watch Testamon van Lee. She believes that

563
00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:58,960
there's an inner guiding light. It's telling her what to do.

564
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:01,400
The scriptures don't or that much. All that matters is

565
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,160
their personal relationship with Jesus. She's gonna he's going to

566
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,319
be a pacifist, She's going to try to set up

567
00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:12,000
an earthly commune. I mean, all of the ridiculous teachings

568
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,759
of evangelicalism and charismaticism are actually what the Radical Reformation taught.

569
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:21,200
And by radical information we mean people like George Fox,

570
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,480
the Quakers, the Anabaptists, the Shakers.

571
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:24,799
Speaker 15: Right.

572
00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: Uh, that's the proto Pentecostals and Charismatics and Evangelicals today.

573
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,640
If you look at the mainline Reformers in their churches,

574
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,039
like they're all dying and dead and all.

575
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:37,279
Speaker 1: They're all gay churches. Right.

576
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: So you have the pc USA, uh, mainline Presbyterians.

577
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: You have the Lutheran Church, Anglicans.

578
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,559
Speaker 2: The mainline Anglicans, mainline Lutherans, those are all dying out

579
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:52,559
and they're all ordaining you know, trans bishops and all nonsense.

580
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 14: So yeah, the archbishop of Canterbury is like a woman.

581
00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,839
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, that just happened two days ago, but you

582
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,400
know what, everybody's laughing about that.

583
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,359
Speaker 1: But actually they already had a woman head of the church.

584
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,400
For the last hundred years.

585
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: The queen was the head of the church, so they

586
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,440
already had a female head of the church.

587
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,799
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's true. That's that's true. Okay, well, thank you

588
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:13,200
very much.

589
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,759
Speaker 2: I think the big difference is that even the product

590
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,920
the mainline evangelicals, which are the majority now I guess

591
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,839
nowadays of Protestants, I'm guessing they don't care about really

592
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,119
the so called classical Reformation doctrines except for something like,

593
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,079
you know, some water down idea of faith alone, or

594
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:36,680
some water down idea of I just followed my Bible,

595
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,359
which is some version of soul Scripture, right, so I think, right,

596
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,920
I think that's where evangelicalism is today.

597
00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 14: Okay, thank you very much.

598
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because it's pretty far removed from

599
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:50,319
Lutheran Calvin, right, I mean Lutheran Calvin. You could perhaps

600
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:53,400
make the argument that they may be Lutheran more so

601
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,680
than Calvin, Like they're more close to Orthodox and Catholicism

602
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,839
than they are to the radical reformers in certain respects, right, father,

603
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,839
you can do everything on reformation teaching and today's evangelicals.

604
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,599
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, Luther wasn't an iconoclast.

605
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:14,359
Speaker 6: He had at least two seconds believed in the real presence,

606
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:24,720
the old Lutheran liturgies are much higher liturgically. It's you know,

607
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:29,079
modern Lutherans today unless you go to Germany or something

608
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:29,559
like that.

609
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,799
Speaker 5: But they're all gay.

610
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:35,799
Speaker 6: The higher liturgical kind of Lutherans are all woke and stuff.

611
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,119
But yeah, they're a lot closer than to too orthodoxy

612
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,000
than you know, the Lutherans than modern Humangelicals for sure.

613
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:46,839
Speaker 1: By the way, we were driving out here the other day.

614
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if you heard me say this on

615
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,519
the stream FDA, but I was actually Jamie was like, hey,

616
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:53,960
this is a Zuza Street who were literally on his

617
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:55,920
Zusa Street where the whole Pentecostal movement.

618
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, how crazy is that? Well it wasn't far

619
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,200
from actually where we ain't exactly.

620
00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I realize that of course, right wing. What's up

621
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,720
you want on you? Hey, thanks for having me up.

622
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:09,799
Speaker 16: You're killing it with all the collapse by the way,

623
00:32:09,839 --> 00:32:11,960
great stuff, Well, well guess what.

624
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: Only about like one tenth of it has actually dropped yet,

625
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:19,759
so nice. If you're liking the collapse, there's about ten more.

626
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 16: So I was just wondering your opinion on the new

627
00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:26,319
Anglican archbishop and how the ceremony was on the twenty fifth,

628
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:29,519
which is their feasting and annunciation. There's there's got to

629
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:33,000
be some compounded underlying heresy or symbolism to why they

630
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:35,200
chose that day, right, I.

631
00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:37,599
Speaker 2: Didn't even know that, and I haven't. All I saw

632
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,720
was people making fun of it on Twitter. But my

633
00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:43,440
guess would be, well, this is the idea that the

634
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,319
feminine is now replacing the masculine. Right, and again, go

635
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,680
watch Testamon of van Lee, because she says the future

636
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,680
of Christianity is that women will replace what the men did.

637
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:55,839
Speaker 1: Because she says.

638
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,559
Speaker 2: God is man and God is woman, and if he

639
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:02,480
came the first time as a man, he must return

640
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:04,680
as a woman. And so she taught that she was

641
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,279
the second advent of Christ, but as the Holy Spirit.

642
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:11,039
So she's like the incarnation of the Spirit, which she

643
00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:14,119
thought was feminine, which is odd because.

644
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: She couldn't read.

645
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: But it's almost like she's repeating these Talmudic doctrines that

646
00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:22,039
God is bisexual and that God has a you know,

647
00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,160
female body parts, all this kind of crazy nonsense. My

648
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,480
guess would be that it's the same demonic spirit that's

649
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,160
influencing the heretics of today.

650
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: Bird are you there? Go ahead?

651
00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 17: My question is about the residue of sin. So, like

652
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,559
I've heard people say that sin doesn't have a positive ontology,

653
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:47,079
but it seems like committing sins leaves some sort of

654
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,079
like it's called like a spore or like something unclean

655
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:52,440
that needs to be washed away.

656
00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:56,279
Speaker 1: And now that's all that's that's gnostic, Maybe that's Manichian.

657
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,559
Speaker 2: So I mean, you could have an addiction or a

658
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:03,319
passion that you are tempted with, but there's no such

659
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:06,920
thing as an ontological thing that has to be watched life.

660
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 17: So when like when Noah gets off the arc and

661
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,320
he makes atonement for the land, like it's kind of

662
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,519
portrayed in a sense that like this the sins of

663
00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:20,559
the or like if you have an Orthodox priest come

664
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,239
to your house and bless it is that not to

665
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,440
deal with like some sort of effect of the sin

666
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,559
that's been committed in that house, or.

667
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,639
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you could you could say that there's

668
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,360
the presence of evil spirits. That's what's being cleansed. But

669
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,320
there's not residue of evil or something like that. That

670
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,599
evil doesn't have to even even the demons in their

671
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,760
nature are still good, but they use their will and

672
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,679
their their powers constantly for things against God. So it's

673
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,079
the actions that are the bad. Part is not some

674
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,840
thing or some I don't know what you would call it.

675
00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:00,639
And you know there's no substance or there's no gack,

676
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,159
there's no nickelodeon gack.

677
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:04,679
Speaker 17: Yeah, that's kind of what I'm asking. Is there like

678
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,239
an ick ontology.

679
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: That would be not it would be menichi and you

680
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:11,639
could do incorrect actions.

681
00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 6: I mean even if you think like biologically, like with

682
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,039
a plant or something that do you put it in

683
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:24,320
bad soil, or like you do something that harms a

684
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,360
plant or something so that it's leaves shrivel up and

685
00:35:28,159 --> 00:35:33,000
something like that, Obviously you're not creating a substance. You're

686
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,360
doing something that's not good for the plant. So you

687
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,719
can damage things. Demons can damage stuff. We can damage

688
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,039
stuff by not you know, doing the right sorts of things.

689
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:46,480
And that's just you know, even the biological sphere, but

690
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:49,519
like also morally, but it doesn't mean that there's like

691
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,639
there's some evil substance on the plant or in the

692
00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:54,039
house or something like that.

693
00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 17: I'm just wondering from a perspective of like the wages

694
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,920
of sin, like what you earn through sin is death,

695
00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:05,920
Like where's the transition between the sinful action and or

696
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,800
am I just taking are we talking about spiritual death?

697
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,119
Speaker 1: Like I sometimes.

698
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:13,639
Speaker 2: Death is death is the severance of the soul from

699
00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:17,199
the body, and it's you know, the person willing against

700
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,159
God and it gets the good. That's the first is

701
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:22,960
physical death, second spiritual death. So that's all death is.

702
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:24,760
All right, Thank you guys. I appreciate it. Yeah, that

703
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,480
those great questions.

704
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 6: Substance, it's the lack of life. So you can do

705
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:37,800
actions two things that kill something kill yourself both physically,

706
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:42,000
you know, or biologically and spiritually too. But like, yeah,

707
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,840
it doesn't mean death is an actually thing that you

708
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,920
can trap in a jar and you know, take it

709
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,199
to show and tell and class and stuff like that.

710
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: Or like you could give somebody death cooties and then

711
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,880
they have the death on them that gets cooties.

712
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:57,679
Speaker 1: Uh. It's funny you.

713
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 2: Say the FDA because one of the one of the

714
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,400
parts of the discussion with Jesse Lee Peterson was where

715
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:06,000
he started because what he I don't know if you've

716
00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:07,840
ever seen what he does, but he basically asked you

717
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,119
all these really bizarre kind of questions that are really

718
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:14,119
ambiguous leading questions because he wants to get you to

719
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:17,599
understand and accept his kind of weird process of what

720
00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:20,360
he thinks counseling is spiritual counseling.

721
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: So ask all these.

722
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: Questions like do you have your your mama sins nature?

723
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: And I'm like, my, what do you have? You have

724
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:29,960
your ma sin nature?

725
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:33,159
Speaker 2: She put that in you and I'm like, well, there's

726
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:34,920
not a sin nature, Yes there is.

727
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,079
Speaker 1: For your mama.

728
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: It's like, there was no way I was going to

729
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,960
ever be able to explain to him that, Like well,

730
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,559
I said, well sin doesn't have any being.

731
00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: He's like, what do you mean being?

732
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 5: Oh no, that's well.

733
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 6: It's interesting because Protestantism is influenced by that kind of

734
00:37:55,519 --> 00:37:57,599
man a ken where they you know, you get it

735
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,559
from Calvin to you and like a sin nature. It's

736
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:06,639
like that entails that they're a positive being to see

737
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,159
when it's actually a privation.

738
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: Right. But the funny thing about Jesse Peter Lee.

739
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: Peterson's view of it was that, you know, most people

740
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,000
who are are Protestants or whatever, they think the sin

741
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:16,719
nature has passed from Adam right.

742
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: He thinks that it's a thing that the mom.

743
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:26,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, interests, it's really bizarre, Scott, what's up?

744
00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: Just I'm you, guys when you I'm you when you

745
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:29,760
come up. Yeah.

746
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,199
Speaker 18: Sure, I think these strikes were justified. I assume you

747
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:34,079
sort of disagree.

748
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: Okay, how would we know what? What? What justifies them?

749
00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 12: Well?

750
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,639
Speaker 18: I just mean from like geopolitical facts. I don't mean

751
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:41,880
from an epostomach.

752
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: Basic what well, No, I mean morally speaking, it's it

753
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,039
is preempted.

754
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 18: But I think you can justify preemptive strikes in many cases.

755
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: Okay, And what why would Israel be in the US

756
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,800
be justified INTI strikes?

757
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,679
Speaker 18: I don't I'm not like defending associations with Israel or

758
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:01,719
any of that. I just mean from here from American interests.

759
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,559
Speaker 1: But okay, well, what would the American interesting? So I

760
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:05,440
ran had.

761
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 18: Well, apparently they launched at Diego Garcias. It means they

762
00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:13,960
had ICBMs that were up to four thousand kilometers I believe,

763
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:15,760
I don't know the exact Heart, but that that would

764
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,199
reach Western Europe as well if they reached Diego, Garcia.

765
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,559
And they claimed at least to have two hundred kilograms

766
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,719
or thereabouts of sixty percent uranium, which I'm not a

767
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,960
nuclear scientist, but they say that's something like ten or

768
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:29,800
eleven warheads.

769
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they don't have the ability to launch those

770
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:34,760
even if they did. According to Kerioka, they have.

771
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 18: At least one with four thousand, like they launched at

772
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,159
least one ICBM at four thousand kilometers. I didn't actually

773
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:42,280
watch the Kariaka.

774
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 5: One, so I guess I'm a little uninformed there.

775
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,559
Speaker 2: How are you Ortho bro Oca supremacist? That doesn't make

776
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:50,719
any sense? Sorry, how are you? I don't believe you're

777
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,480
who you say you are, Ortho Broo Eastern mystic o.

778
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 5: So those are just pejoratives I've been called.

779
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:56,599
Speaker 1: This is a little joke.

780
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,679
Speaker 2: And is there any precedent for preemptive strikes in the

781
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,719
history of like Christian warfare?

782
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,199
Speaker 18: I I don't think there is, but I think that

783
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,960
like logically you can extend you know, like proportionality to

784
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:12,920
preemptive strikes in some ways, I mean, but but no

785
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,920
there to answer your question, No, I don't think there's

786
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,679
an exact like uh one to one with like.

787
00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: Do you think that that Israel would provoke this at all?

788
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 18: I go back and I think there's obviously there's some

789
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,719
influence with Israel, but I think that in this case

790
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,920
it's overlapping interest with the range of the ICBMs, a

791
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,519
potential range if.

792
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,039
Speaker 1: It you know, if indeed that those could carry their ward.

793
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,679
Speaker 2: Okay, butt this was that the Well, then why wasn't

794
00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:37,760
this done twenty years ago?

795
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,119
Speaker 18: If that was the case, I think it should have

796
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:43,079
probably been done prior, but probably when the shot was deposed,

797
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,840
so like it should have been done with a better

798
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,039
causus belly, but it wasn't, and I think the problems

799
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:50,440
went bestering for I think it's almost fifty years, forty

800
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,159
seven years, that's so. I think it's kind of we

801
00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:57,400
had we had to make a decision at a point

802
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,400
in time now where they would gain according to market

803
00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:02,840
immunity from future strikes.

804
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,159
Speaker 1: Do you think Marco Rubio is a reliable source?

805
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 2: I think you'd have to Okay, why is why is

806
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,679
Marco Rubio reliable source?

807
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 18: Well, I mean, obviously everyone in any given administration has

808
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,800
been trying to BELI to.

809
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,079
Speaker 1: You, why is Marco Rubio a reliable source?

810
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 18: Because I think that there would be more leaks if

811
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,559
you was like objectly lying about just neutrality or the blocking.

812
00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: I'm moving on, Maddie, what's up?

813
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to listen to some dude who says he's

814
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,400
an OCA sparentcys Madie, what's up? That's that feels like

815
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,320
fed energy because he's got a giant Confederate flag with

816
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,519
Biden and she says he's an OI.

817
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: Maddie, what's up? FDA? Do you have any comments on that?

818
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:48,800
That was odd? No?

819
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 5: No comment?

820
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 15: Yeah, was popping my dog. Congratulations on the on the

821
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,320
podcast too. I've been fairly enjoying it over here in

822
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,840
the UK. It's been amazing to watch. There's more questions, father,

823
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,360
I heard last week or the week beforehand. Maybe you

824
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:12,440
spoke upon Agent's video about the whole possible hoax with

825
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:18,599
the Holy Separaka and Holy fire issues associated the Jerusalem Patriarch.

826
00:42:19,559 --> 00:42:20,119
Speaker 8: Is that correct?

827
00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 5: As I think it was.

828
00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 6: Jane and I had one of these things, these spaces,

829
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,159
and it was brought up.

830
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 5: Somebody was doubt I didn't know who was doubting it.

831
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 6: I didn't know it was agents, and I made a

832
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,199
comment about why I think it's legitimate.

833
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 15: Yeah, I watched the video just out of curiosity, and

834
00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:48,039
I mean, from what I can say, I don't see

835
00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:50,199
it doesn't seem to me that he's kind of imposed

836
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,639
any sort of his personal opinion on the story. But

837
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,840
I just wanted to know whether or not it's true

838
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,440
or not. I spoke to my spiritual father at church

839
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,360
a Sunday to try and get his view.

840
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 5: Up on things.

841
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 15: Not because it caused any particularly down inside of me,

842
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,599
but I want to understand if there would be any

843
00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:13,000
sort of issues or repercussions with people faith wise. It's

844
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,119
not necessarily the case that even if, for instance, hypothetically

845
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:20,280
this was proven that maybe this has been a hoax

846
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,079
for maybe all of time, but maybe a certain period

847
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:27,960
of time, that this would jeopardize individuals in the church.

848
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: I don't think.

849
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 6: I don't think it's like you said, it's necessary that

850
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,599
it's not a dogma or something like that. Is there's

851
00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:39,159
no good reasons I do not believe it. I've never

852
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,320
heard all of them have been kind of debunked or

853
00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:46,880
just to just kind of ad hoc, and only the

854
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,440
best sort of reasons to believe that it's actually legitimate.

855
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 5: But I mean, again, it's not binding on It's not

856
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,000
like you have to believe it to be orthodox.

857
00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:00,639
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's just I mean, given the content annuity, how

858
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:03,960
far it goes back? And I mean think about the critiques,

859
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:10,239
they're very much like the kind of atheistic critiques of like, yeah,

860
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,880
the Resurrection, Like they have that same kind of spirit that, oh,

861
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,480
we have to like everybody's conspiring and this is I mean,

862
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,679
it just gets ridiculous the amount of ad hoc kind

863
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:32,639
of skeptical arguments and reconstruction to explain what obviously seems

864
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:36,320
the case that it's the continuity, the fact that they

865
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,599
didn't have lighters or anything back in the day, and

866
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:40,800
what it would actually take to fake something like that.

867
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,039
It's just it's virtually almost impossible to you, So that.

868
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 5: Skeptical arguments.

869
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,599
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, honess what you're saying. Yeah, I guess it's

870
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:55,440
one of those things where I guess, like you said,

871
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,039
even if for instance, it was the case, and I'm

872
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,000
certain that will Agent said is true or the arguments

873
00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:04,679
he brings up are true, But if I was to

874
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,079
hyperfectly agree this wasn't, this wouldn't necessarily put all one's

875
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:12,119
faith in jeopardy because it's not contingent upon that, nor

876
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:15,239
is a dogma. I think this is good for me

877
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,800
to clear up. Not that I had any explicit doubts,

878
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,320
but it's one of those things what kind of popped

879
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,280
up where it's like this. It's an interesting point of view.

880
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,480
But yeah, I appreciate your time, Father. It does reassure me.

881
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,119
Speaker 6: Jay.

882
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 15: When are you coming? When is all the whole streaming

883
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,760
like podcast thing coming to an end, or when you're

884
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,239
gonna be back at the gaff? Okay, cool, all right,

885
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,360
I would like to see more cringe. Course, been a

886
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,079
bit minute since we heard the last one.

887
00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:53,039
Speaker 1: Bro, I've been hopefully get back. What's up? Appreciate philth

888
00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:56,760
what's up? Object? Go ahead? Hey?

889
00:45:57,039 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 19: MYA was going down the rabbit hole of p S

890
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:05,280
A and a sacrificial system, and I had asked father

891
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,280
Stephen de Young. I think it was on Alex Alex's

892
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,280
stream or maybe cleavestream about the implied sacrifice and Jennifer

893
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,960
Genesis three with the animal skins and how he clothed them,

894
00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:18,559
and he answered, and I'd never heard it before, and

895
00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:21,079
I was wondering if you ever heard it that the

896
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:28,800
the skins that God clothed Adam and Eve with were

897
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,440
him actually changing their body from the pre fall state into.

898
00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 2: The biological it's the biological skin suit that we presently have.

899
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:40,320
As many church fathers say that, oh, guy, I just

900
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,519
didn't heard before tonight. I recalled it because I remember

901
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:48,000
you in a debate arguing with that one like weird

902
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,000
Christian vegan guy, and you use that as a I

903
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:56,239
get the point for as a rebuttal to his that

904
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,039
saying that you know, we can't even meet you use

905
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:01,800
that or that applyed sacrifice is the reason that we

906
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:03,519
you know, it's fine.

907
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,039
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Yeah, But whether or not God is

908
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,239
clothing us with animal.

909
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,199
Speaker 2: Skin suits to have biological bodies, or whether he's killing

910
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,760
the animal for a meal, covenantal meal, the principle is

911
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:16,079
still the.

912
00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:20,599
Speaker 1: Same, that God is not empathetical to the killing of animals. Gotcha, Okay, cool,

913
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:20,920
thank you.

914
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: And by the way, that yeah, the church fathers not

915
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,039
unanimous either on that interpretation. And if you'll notice, if

916
00:47:26,039 --> 00:47:28,280
you read through their commentaries, some of them think that

917
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,280
it's a metaphysical change in their being to have kind.

918
00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: Of a biological component.

919
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: That's like an animal has with these bodies versus the

920
00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:39,960
type of body that they might have had in the

921
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,599
Garden of Eden, which was some sort of a higher

922
00:47:41,639 --> 00:47:42,719
sort of spiritual body.

923
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:44,079
Speaker 1: Aiden, Yeah, go ahead.

924
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:50,039
Speaker 12: Time One is about like Orthodox patristic series, which would

925
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:54,719
you recommend first, Dmitri Stineiloi's Experience of God or yourself

926
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,960
Pelicans a Church and tradition. I believe, I know you've

927
00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:00,840
made a video on the well.

928
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: I mean, Father Saint Eloy's is not Patristics. It's his

929
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,880
own dogmatic theology. So that's more like reading a pretty

930
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,440
advanced systematic theology. But Pelicon series is really good for

931
00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:16,960
getting an overview of the ideological trek of the debates

932
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,239
of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth century. So

933
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,519
I would say, actually both would compliment one another. But

934
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:24,920
if you're new to Orthodoxy, I think Stunnyeloy would be

935
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:27,320
very difficult, so you might want to start with something

936
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,519
more like Palma Zansky before study.

937
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:30,519
Speaker 1: Okay.

938
00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 12: Second was on like Orthodox philosophical, like philosophical readings of

939
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,800
the Orthodox influence behind it, if you know what I mean.

940
00:48:43,679 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean Orthodoxy is not super interested in philosophy, but

941
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:50,920
I mean there are Orthodox philosophers like Tristan Inglehart or

942
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:56,360
David doctor David Bradshaw or doctor Bo Branson. I mean,

943
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,880
those are all modern philosophy professors who are influenced by

944
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:02,199
Orthodox teaching.

945
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:05,519
Speaker 1: So I guess I'm not what do you mean exactly

946
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:06,639
by Orthodox philosophy.

947
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 12: I mean like kind of a less Western views, like

948
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:11,159
there's no.

949
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 2: Orthodox Nietsche, you know, that's walking. There's not like an

950
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,239
Orthodox you know, Emmanuel Kant or something like that.

951
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,519
Speaker 12: Where would you recommend, Like, I'm a I'm a current

952
00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:24,519
cate Cuman. Your content has helped me out a lot

953
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:27,920
of but where would you recommend the individual to start?

954
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 2: Well, if you were interested in philosophy, I would read

955
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:36,880
the Yarslaw Pelicon book Metamorphosis of Natural Theology and the Cappadocians.

956
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,079
Speaker 1: Yeah I saw that. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I

957
00:49:40,119 --> 00:49:40,360
saw that.

958
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 12: When your video is uh yeah, I've kind of analyzed

959
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:45,960
like all your videos in but before you.

960
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: Do that, I would actually, uh, now that you kind

961
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,199
of asked these questions, I think you would probably do

962
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,760
best to start with the Pelicon volume one, because it's

963
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,880
really good, and volume two is really good too.

964
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: I would do one and two. Three is about the Reformation,

965
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:00,519
so it's not that necessarily. Yeah, yeah, one and one

966
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:01,519
and two are really good.

967
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 12: What what all do you cover in your big red book,

968
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:06,400
like the theology book.

969
00:50:06,679 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: It's just kind of a.

970
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: Random collection of apologetic essays over ten years. So there's

971
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,599
a lot of Roman Catholic critiques, papal critiques, created great critiques,

972
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,639
arguments for essence, energy, philio quick critiques, and then it

973
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,559
gets into more, you know, kind of all over the place,

974
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:25,320
philosophical essays and critiques of the New World Order. So

975
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,440
it's kind of a broad spectrum. Yeah, it's like seven

976
00:50:28,519 --> 00:50:30,880
hundred pages, right, Yeah, it's it's all that.

977
00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's basically ten years of blog post in one book.

978
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 12: All right, I appreciate Jay. I also want to say,

979
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,880
I really appreciate your content. Man, it's uh help. It's

980
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,079
helped me in convert to Orthodoxy. Like I said, I'm

981
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:42,760
a catech human.

982
00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:48,159
Speaker 2: Well that's greatat appreciate that, man, appreciate you great question.

983
00:50:48,599 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

984
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: Those are always great places to start, you know, if

985
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,679
you want to start in the Church Fathers, I always say,

986
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,280
read on the Incarnation by Athenatious, you know, read on

987
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,960
the Holy Spirit by Basil, read uh five theological rations

988
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,159
record outs as great place to start to get the

989
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:04,760
idea what the.

990
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:05,599
Speaker 1: Patricial teaching is.

991
00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:07,679
Speaker 2: And also, of course the post opseell for others as well,

992
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,960
ignacious and clements in Aeronaeus, it's open for them. I

993
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:18,480
have the renowned and esteemed father, doctor Deacon Anonius, the

994
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:22,840
creator of the Ortho Braro political movement that is seeking

995
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,159
to create a earthly kingdom, much like Ann Lee did

996
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,679
amongst the Quakers Thomas or something.

997
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,159
Speaker 20: Hey, so I come from a Protestant background. I'm curious

998
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:41,320
since Prosimism has a big emphasis on proselytizing, I'm curious

999
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:49,599
what the Orthodox viewpoint on proselytizing is, maybe in compared

1000
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:51,320
to prosimism or just.

1001
00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, we we have been here making thousands

1002
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,440
of converts for the last eight years on the Orthodox

1003
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,960
to Orthodoxy on the online, so we definitely believe in

1004
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:05,559
proselytizing just means making converts. Prosepolytes is a convert in

1005
00:52:05,639 --> 00:52:10,039
the New Testament. So but we probably have different ideas

1006
00:52:10,119 --> 00:52:13,039
obviously from what evangelicals think. That is, for the Orthodox,

1007
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:16,599
it means you become an inquirer, you become a cateicuman

1008
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,039
that takes you know, one to three years. Then you

1009
00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:22,679
join the church for evangelicals, it's like you go and

1010
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,480
pray at a service and raise your hands and cry.

1011
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: And Jesus becomes your boyfriends. So we have we have

1012
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,760
very different ideas. Okay, all right, thank you, that's all

1013
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,000
I wanted to know. No, that's actually a good question.

1014
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,519
Speaker 13: Josh, hey man, thanks for having me as always, dude.

1015
00:52:35,519 --> 00:52:38,079
I saw that recent debate with Temple that was hilarious.

1016
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,519
But I got a question for you. Quite welcome. So

1017
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,880
me and my kids were reading Chronicles of Narnia and

1018
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,199
I ended up watching a C. S. Lewis documentary which

1019
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,239
is pretty interesting, but there was an aside in there.

1020
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,280
I was curious if you had insight on this. Give

1021
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:54,639
we lost it, Josh, I want to come back, try again.

1022
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 1: Go ahead. C. S Lewis, go ahead. Anyway.

1023
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,199
Speaker 13: Supposedly, there was a debate he had towards the end

1024
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,519
of his career and apologetics and maybe the end of

1025
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:09,119
his life where he couldn't refute the materialist question or

1026
00:53:09,559 --> 00:53:15,000
their argument that if truth can't be explained by materialism alone,

1027
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,880
how could await scale you know, be accurate that type

1028
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,320
of an argument. I'm just curious what you do about

1029
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,800
that debate, about that line of the argumentation, and you

1030
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:25,920
know how you would refute.

1031
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: I've never heard this, but we might ask father Deacon.

1032
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 2: He's got really good arguments against the logical arguments against materialism,

1033
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:35,440
but I'm not familiar with this since yes, so this

1034
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,280
is his wife, father Dion, are you there?

1035
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, you want to know the the logical problems.

1036
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: I think you would be good at this. Yeah.

1037
00:53:43,559 --> 00:53:50,159
Speaker 6: So this comes out of philosophy of mind and what's

1038
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,159
known as the irreducible consciousness arguments. So in philosophy of

1039
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:55,320
mind you had, like.

1040
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 5: You have competing schools.

1041
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,039
Speaker 6: Obviously you have substance dualists and primary The substance duelists

1042
00:54:01,079 --> 00:54:03,360
and materialists both.

1043
00:54:03,199 --> 00:54:05,639
Speaker 5: Are like the opposite spectrums.

1044
00:54:06,159 --> 00:54:11,639
Speaker 6: Philosophically, and there's a whole variety of theories under materialism.

1045
00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:17,719
And so philosophers and philosopher and philosophy of mind came

1046
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:24,360
up with a series of kind of modal arguments in

1047
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:32,360
which like possible worlds or conceivability arguments that refute materialism,

1048
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:37,079
and which because the materialist thesis is not simply it

1049
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,880
just happens to be just true in this world that

1050
00:54:42,039 --> 00:54:45,639
everything's physical and empirical, and that there are no immaterial

1051
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,760
properties or entities.

1052
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 5: But it has a modal strength in every possible world.

1053
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,599
Speaker 6: So the way that you, for somebody is saying it's impossible,

1054
00:54:54,679 --> 00:54:59,559
it's logically impossible that there are any immaterial entities or properties.

1055
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,719
All you have to do is think of a a

1056
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:11,119
conceivability argument. Well, I'm conceiving of, for example, zombies, and

1057
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,360
which are physically identical to us in every way, but

1058
00:55:14,559 --> 00:55:22,719
they lack consciousness. There's other arguments too, like Frank Jackson's

1059
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,880
what Mary Didn't Know? That all served to basically refute materialism.

1060
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,719
I can think of a world in which your thesis

1061
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,119
isn't true and therefore materialism is false.

1062
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,519
Speaker 5: That's basically the gist of it. I mean it's more

1063
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:40,199
complicated that, but that's the general kind of structure of

1064
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:40,840
those arguments.

1065
00:55:41,199 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 2: Can you explain why a conceivability argument would work in

1066
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,320
this case? Because I think most people are going to

1067
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,000
immediately think, well, just because you can, Okay.

1068
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 6: So let me just do the logical possibility of zombies.

1069
00:55:54,639 --> 00:55:57,480
If materialism is true, then the things that we think of,

1070
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:06,679
like consciousness mental states can be epistemologically and ontologically.

1071
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:11,039
Speaker 5: Reduced to simply material states, whether that's functionalism or identity

1072
00:56:11,119 --> 00:56:12,519
theories and things like that.

1073
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 6: So the fact that I can think about that structurally

1074
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:23,239
something identical to me but lacks consciousness means that they're

1075
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,079
leaving something out, and therefore it can't be reduced. Now

1076
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:29,199
though of course say, well, that just wouldn't happen, you

1077
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:33,320
would get consciousness. The problem is I'm not speaking about

1078
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,480
whether it happened in this world. I didn't contradict myself

1079
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:42,519
in thinking that. Therefore it's not logically true that materialism

1080
00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:46,760
because I've thought a counter example in a possible world.

1081
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,079
The other one is what Mary doesn't know. And she's

1082
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,639
like a brilliant scientist, and she's a genius.

1083
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:57,199
Speaker 5: She's brought up in a black and white room and she's.

1084
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 6: Specialized in optics and color vision and stuff like that,

1085
00:57:00,199 --> 00:57:02,840
so she knows what it is to be read, and

1086
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:04,840
so she shouldn't learn any.

1087
00:57:04,679 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 5: New facts of she.

1088
00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:09,599
Speaker 6: Let's suppose she learns everything about what red is, and

1089
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,119
then she's released from the room, the black and white

1090
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:16,119
room that she grew up in, and she experiences a

1091
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:20,199
red rose, and she gains a new fact, namely what

1092
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:27,039
it's like to experience a quality, a qualitative experience of red. Okay,

1093
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:31,519
if physical is a materialism is true, she shouldn't learn

1094
00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:34,960
anything new because she learned all third person objective facts.

1095
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,400
Then the response the response would be, well, she wouldn't

1096
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,840
learn anything, But that's not the problem. The problem is, Yeah,

1097
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,599
but I thought about a scenario and a logically possible

1098
00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:51,119
world where she would and I didn't contradict myself. And

1099
00:57:51,199 --> 00:57:55,840
if materialism says the materialism is true in every logically

1100
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,280
possible world, all I have to do is think about

1101
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,800
a possible world in which it's not the case. So

1102
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,360
they all have that kind of structure. They are complicated.

1103
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,480
Modal arguments and logical possibility arguments are really complicated, but

1104
00:58:06,519 --> 00:58:07,119
they're really good.

1105
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.

1106
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,199
Speaker 2: By the way, did you see, by chance in the

1107
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,800
last few days when we did the review of Nick's

1108
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,480
debate with Jake Muscle Metaphysician.

1109
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:15,519
Speaker 1: On the Trinity.

1110
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: No, I didn't, So you would have liked them, because

1111
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,880
basically what happened was I thank you for your question.

1112
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:28,960
Josh Nick presented out of analytical philosophy just relative identity

1113
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:34,360
as a way to logically show that something can be

1114
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,679
one and also not one in different ways based on

1115
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,760
different types of classification. So there's like there's pure relative

1116
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,639
identity in logic, and then there's impure relative identity. So

1117
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,119
Nick was just arguing and impure relative identity. And the

1118
00:58:52,199 --> 00:58:55,920
problem is that Jake didn't realize that. He strength that

1119
00:58:56,039 --> 00:58:59,360
the premise of the debate was is the Trinity illogical?

1120
00:58:59,519 --> 00:58:59,639
Speaker 1: Right?

1121
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: All Nick had to do is show that through relative

1122
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:10,719
identity logic, the statements.

1123
00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:11,559
Speaker 1: About the Trinity being.

1124
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,559
Speaker 2: You know, one God in three persons are not a

1125
00:59:15,639 --> 00:59:20,119
contradiction because Jake said they're a contradiction. So when Jake

1126
00:59:20,199 --> 00:59:23,440
admits that in the way that it's formulated, it's not

1127
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:26,559
a contradiction that date was over, but you would like

1128
00:59:26,639 --> 00:59:28,719
it because it's similar to what you're arguing.

1129
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: When what Jake said was, yeah, but.

1130
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: The Trinity has all this metaphysics, and the point was that, yeah,

1131
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,159
but I don't have to get into the metaphysics, because

1132
00:59:37,199 --> 00:59:39,480
all I have to do is say that something can

1133
00:59:39,559 --> 00:59:42,159
be three m be one and it's not a logical contradiction.

1134
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:49,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, because if somebody's position is it's a contradiction that

1135
00:59:49,239 --> 00:59:53,280
it holds across every possible Yes, So there's a necessity.

1136
00:59:53,519 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: But you don't have to get into the metaphysics which

1137
00:59:56,559 --> 00:59:57,679
give the metaphysics.

1138
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 6: That's that's why people misunder stand You're absolutely right. The

1139
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,119
irreduced by the consciousness arguments that were like, well that

1140
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:08,639
wouldn't happen, and it's like, well, that's the metaphysics. I

1141
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:10,599
don't have to actually get into the metaphysics of the

1142
01:00:10,719 --> 01:00:15,280
universe to actually logically conceive of a situation that negates

1143
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:15,920
your position.

1144
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 5: That's not a logical contradiction.

1145
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 6: If if that's possible, you're saying it's in how do

1146
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,840
you refute somebody says it's impossible, Well, you either physically

1147
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:29,480
show it empirically, or you say it's logically possible. I

1148
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:33,559
conceived of it without contradicting myself, and so that that's

1149
01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:37,079
what's happening in that debate too. Yeah, I definitely think

1150
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,840
argument with the Odyssey too, with the problem of evil.

1151
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:44,679
If somebody says it's impossible that an omniscient, on benevolent,

1152
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,920
omnipotent God exists and evil exists, all I have to

1153
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:50,880
do is create. I don't have to get into the

1154
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,119
metaphysics of the universe. All I have to do is

1155
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:58,360
it's not impossible, it's possible, and then it throws the

1156
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,400
burden to proof on them, to show how that I'm conceiving,

1157
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,800
for example, as Saint Augustine, And then Chitteran points out,

1158
01:01:05,159 --> 01:01:07,320
isn't it logically POSSI didn't say it this way, but

1159
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,159
it's basically what's going on in the argument, isn't it

1160
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:14,039
logically possible? An omniscient, omni benevolent, omnipotent God could bring

1161
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,159
allow evil if he brings out a greater good by

1162
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:20,760
allowing it than if you prevent it. Yes, then your

1163
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,800
positions refuted because I just you said it's impossible. I

1164
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,840
just showed that there's no logical contradiction, and I don't

1165
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,599
have to answer why God does it? A lot to

1166
01:01:29,639 --> 01:01:32,400
show is isn't it logically possible? So your argument that

1167
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,719
it's logically impossible is refuted.

1168
01:01:34,559 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 2: Exactly, And that's what the whole debate ended I being about,

1169
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:39,800
because once Jake conceded that with like within like thirty

1170
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:41,679
minutes of the debate, the debate was over. And then

1171
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,920
Jake shifted into try to argue the energies and all

1172
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,039
this metaphysics. So it's like, yeah, but the debate, Jake,

1173
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:48,559
if that was the case, you should have made the

1174
01:01:48,599 --> 01:01:51,880
premise is the Trinity true? But he didn't accept the

1175
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,079
premise as the Trinity true? He said, is the Trinity logical?

1176
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,199
And that's where he made a fatal flaw. Just how

1177
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,039
you got on you, hey, Jake? Another question, all of

1178
01:02:01,119 --> 01:02:03,639
the questions that are going, can you hear me?

1179
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:04,599
Speaker 1: Yeah? Go ahead.

1180
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:10,159
Speaker 9: So another question she had that I couldn't totally answer

1181
01:02:10,519 --> 01:02:13,039
very simply is she was like, why do why do

1182
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:16,920
we need to go through a class to you know,

1183
01:02:17,199 --> 01:02:20,800
enter into the Orthodox Church? Another you know, her her

1184
01:02:21,159 --> 01:02:24,400
whole mind frame is coming from a Protestant perspective.

1185
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:24,679
Speaker 7: You know.

1186
01:02:27,599 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 9: What would be a simple answer to give.

1187
01:02:30,119 --> 01:02:32,719
Speaker 2: I guess, well, because the Church has a lot of

1188
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,519
teachings that are from divine revelation. Divine revelation is you know,

1189
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:40,280
partly contained in the scriptures. But you know, the scriptures

1190
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,320
aren't organized as a book of catechisis.

1191
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: The Bible is a liturgical book.

1192
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: So you know, it's difficult to just catechize someone or

1193
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,639
teach them that theology from merely reading the scriptures.

1194
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:53,599
Speaker 1: It's not impossible.

1195
01:02:53,679 --> 01:02:56,679
Speaker 2: But that's why the Church has typically had a period

1196
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,639
of time where you learn the theology of the Church

1197
01:02:59,719 --> 01:03:03,000
from the Creed, which expresses, you know, the essence of

1198
01:03:03,119 --> 01:03:07,360
the Christian beliefs. And then every catechism usually expounds upon

1199
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,239
the nice, you know, constant Apolitan Creed because that's the

1200
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,079
basics of our system. So because the Church has dogmas,

1201
01:03:14,159 --> 01:03:16,679
because the Church has a you know, two thousand year history,

1202
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,400
it's not like Protestantism where you're just sort of window

1203
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,199
shopping and you pick an outfit or you pick a

1204
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,400
you know, a shirt or a hat, like you have

1205
01:03:26,599 --> 01:03:30,519
to learn the totality of the system. Also, it's for

1206
01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:33,639
your own good because you know, you want to make

1207
01:03:33,679 --> 01:03:36,280
sure you're making it, because we take it very seriously.

1208
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,039
You want to make sure you're making the right decision.

1209
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,199
So it's not like you know, willy nilly type, come

1210
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,400
down to the altar and pray and then you're in

1211
01:03:44,519 --> 01:03:48,079
the church. Like, this is a very serious commitment. It's

1212
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,000
way more serious than what you find in evangelicalism. So

1213
01:03:51,519 --> 01:03:55,000
you want to know that you learn these things and

1214
01:03:55,119 --> 01:03:57,320
agree with these things before you sign on to something

1215
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,400
that you know six months down the road. And this

1216
01:04:00,559 --> 01:04:03,639
is because the Church has the long history of dealing

1217
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,039
with and understanding you know, a lot of people think, oh, yeah,

1218
01:04:07,079 --> 01:04:09,039
I'm really into this is really neat, it's really pretty,

1219
01:04:09,079 --> 01:04:10,800
and then six months later they're like, I don't know

1220
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:11,480
if I agree with this.

1221
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't like this idea.

1222
01:04:13,519 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 2: Well then maybe it's you know, maybe it's not the

1223
01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:18,960
right thing for you because you're not in a position

1224
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:21,960
yet where you have the humility to submit to the

1225
01:04:22,039 --> 01:04:25,079
teaching of the church. So there's a lot of different

1226
01:04:25,119 --> 01:04:28,719
reasons why it's not an overnight thing. Although there could

1227
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,599
be situations out of the norm or that happens for

1228
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,519
most people, it's the wisdom.

1229
01:04:34,239 --> 01:04:36,559
Speaker 1: Of the church as the side of that, it's it's

1230
01:04:36,679 --> 01:04:39,960
better for people to take their time to go ahead.

1231
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:45,599
Speaker 6: I've had inquiries. It's a general problem that maybe we

1232
01:04:45,679 --> 01:04:48,960
all have about oh this is so hard for me,

1233
01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:55,480
you know, I'm you know, complaining about different struggles, et cetera.

1234
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,840
And I've told people, well, maybe you shouldn't become Orthodox

1235
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,079
cause tho struggles will get worse and Orthodoxy is not

1236
01:05:03,239 --> 01:05:11,039
here to give you comfort, sensual and finite comforts, like

1237
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,960
it's here to give you a cross, because it's only

1238
01:05:15,039 --> 01:05:18,119
through the cross that we acquire virtues and the resurrection.

1239
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,159
Speaker 5: So I kind of am upfront with people.

1240
01:05:20,199 --> 01:05:22,679
Speaker 6: I'm like, I don't know what you think you're getting into,

1241
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,599
but like the struggles increase and it gets worse. And

1242
01:05:27,719 --> 01:05:33,000
the whole project and prescription of Orthodoxy is to deny yourself.

1243
01:05:33,079 --> 01:05:38,199
Speaker 5: So if you're in it for like I want what

1244
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,239
I want and you know I don't.

1245
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:44,079
Speaker 6: My life's miserable and blah blah blah, Like Orthodoxy is

1246
01:05:44,119 --> 01:05:46,400
not going to make your life pleasurable.

1247
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:48,159
Speaker 5: It's gonna be really difficult.

1248
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,679
Speaker 6: And so I'm just upfront with people and yeah, it's

1249
01:05:51,719 --> 01:05:55,719
a different you know, it's going to require humility, and

1250
01:05:56,119 --> 01:05:59,159
it's not a system of It's not a system at all.

1251
01:05:59,239 --> 01:06:01,440
It's like, well, here's the correct doctrine. It's a way

1252
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,840
of life, and it's a cross and.

1253
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:08,719
Speaker 2: Not Joel Ovaltine's self help prosperity Gospel.

1254
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, Anthony, Am I coming through. Okay?

1255
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 11: Yes?

1256
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: Nice? Uh, it's really quick.

1257
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,639
Speaker 21: Two questions for Jay and one for other than nice.

1258
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,760
What is in your opinion, Jade? Is there any reason why,

1259
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,119
Like the more I talk to other Christians outside of

1260
01:06:25,159 --> 01:06:29,280
the church, I noticed that like Unitarianism is prevalent in

1261
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:32,159
the United States, at least in my circles. Is there

1262
01:06:32,199 --> 01:06:34,400
any reason for that since it's not it's not really

1263
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:36,480
that present outside of the States.

1264
01:06:37,679 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of heterodox movements that

1265
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:43,519
have been funded that push this. For example, all the

1266
01:06:43,639 --> 01:06:48,079
Daily Wire funding. Just as an example is from these

1267
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,119
Texas billionaires who go to a Unitarian church. It's like

1268
01:06:52,199 --> 01:06:56,719
a weird Unitarian Zionist thing, and so they push that

1269
01:06:57,039 --> 01:07:00,360
through a lot of their outlets. You know, I just

1270
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,760
went on Jesse Lee Peterson thing the other day, and

1271
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,559
he has his own homemade church where he teaches Unitarianism.

1272
01:07:07,559 --> 01:07:10,360
You know, a few years ago we were debating this

1273
01:07:10,639 --> 01:07:14,920
new new Apostolic movement or something that's all Unitarian. It

1274
01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:19,119
was me and doctor Boumranson versus some creature from this sect.

1275
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,599
So I think there is some kind of push and movement.

1276
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,559
I don't know all the inner workings, but probably is

1277
01:07:26,639 --> 01:07:30,239
some funding for this kind of stuff to be, you know,

1278
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:35,199
to push sectarian ideas from different from different systems, different outlets.

1279
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,719
Probably some Israeli outlets do so they've always tended to

1280
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,039
have a hand in a Unitarian and Arean types of movements,

1281
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:48,599
So that would be my guess. But also I think

1282
01:07:48,719 --> 01:07:51,440
that as people's IQ declines, and I know that it's

1283
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,199
a spiritual problem, not trying to make it toally IQ,

1284
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,400
but also it is the case that as people get

1285
01:07:56,199 --> 01:08:00,280
kind of dumber, they have a really hard time in

1286
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,159
thinking of things in an abstract way or thinking of

1287
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,400
things that that aren't either simple either ors well to

1288
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:09,760
god what three right? If you saw my debate with

1289
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,719
Captain Tazarijak, he could not just like many of Muslims,

1290
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,639
he could not conceive of something being both and it

1291
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,800
had to be either or. So I think that there's

1292
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,560
a lot of just low tier, just stupid people combined

1293
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:28,439
with subversive money for subversive sectarian.

1294
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,119
Speaker 6: Ideology, and also the Internet, right, I mean, you had

1295
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:34,319
Owen Benjamin comes up with his and.

1296
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: He's a lot of made up Internet people, don't.

1297
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:43,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then they have a following and presence online

1298
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,119
and more of that, you know, informations to seminate among

1299
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:51,960
public and people were dumb and not educated, and so

1300
01:08:52,119 --> 01:08:55,399
they fall for for those things, not to mention that

1301
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:58,840
they're fanboys of different people. And so I think you

1302
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,800
get to just piercing and you get it with Owen

1303
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:04,119
Benjamin because it's the same thing with.

1304
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 5: The Black Heber Israelites.

1305
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,520
Speaker 6: What's the other groups just the same as the Black

1306
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:17,199
HEBW Hebrew is Lights, uh, the Judaising groups, Hebrew Roots.

1307
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.

1308
01:09:19,119 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 6: I think all of that in part comes from you know,

1309
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,560
these people pushing and adopting these things online. It just

1310
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,079
gets spread, same with the paganism, so that the Rabbi Green,

1311
01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:30,960
Adam Green.

1312
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:36,079
Speaker 21: Exact, Yeah, gotcha much better than my guess is I

1313
01:09:36,239 --> 01:09:42,319
appreciate that I'm proselytizing to uh Arian Hebrew roots friends.

1314
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaking of that, and in the you guys are much

1315
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,760
more well read mentioned.

1316
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: Gray is the Aryans?

1317
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 21: Oh yeah, yeah, man, I'm so happy you talk with

1318
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,159
these guys. It's so cathartic, man, It's it's amazing. Is

1319
01:09:59,199 --> 01:10:02,520
there any mentioned by that Postolic fathers or even the

1320
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,600
early Church? I mean they're less they're less prone to

1321
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:09,800
accept Early Church fathers. But do the Apostolic fathers mention

1322
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:14,920
any concepts of like the Jewish Binetarianism that you guys

1323
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:15,960
are aware of, or like the.

1324
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: That's a really good question.

1325
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: I don't know of a Church father that mentions Jewishitarianism,

1326
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,520
although some people might argue that that influenced justin Martyr's

1327
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,079
way that he describes the Father and the logos, because

1328
01:10:29,119 --> 01:10:31,560
it's kind of like the way Philo.

1329
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:37,159
Speaker 1: Describes the two powers of heaven. So that's possibly a reference.

1330
01:10:38,279 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 2: But I don't know about early Jewish Benitarianism or something

1331
01:10:42,039 --> 01:10:44,119
like that other than what today's scholars talk about.

1332
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 21: Gotcha, Okay, I'll make a note of that.

1333
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: I appreciate its.

1334
01:10:47,399 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 5: Father doing Sir as well.

1335
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 10: I don't know if you noticed this, Jay, but I

1336
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:53,319
I tweeted something out about this a little while ago

1337
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:57,119
about how Evangelicals view other Christians and this kind of

1338
01:10:57,159 --> 01:11:00,640
relates to every Middle War, every more than the Middle

1339
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,439
East we've had. But have you ever noticed that evangelicals

1340
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:07,520
they view Americans who are Orthodox in particular as less

1341
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:11,560
American than them, and they simultaneously view Middle Eastern you know,

1342
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,039
Arabs who are Orthodox Christians, they view them as like

1343
01:11:15,199 --> 01:11:19,119
ethnically or racially Islamic. That's why they're so cavalier with

1344
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,079
just make it a parking lot, you know, just bomb

1345
01:11:22,159 --> 01:11:24,039
the place to hell. If you bring up to them,

1346
01:11:24,079 --> 01:11:26,600
well what about like the one one point five million

1347
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:28,760
Christians in Iran? They just kind of look at you

1348
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:30,600
with you know, eyes place owners.

1349
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, John, Karayoku brought it up to me and to

1350
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,680
Alex Jones when he was on with Alex because he

1351
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,640
said that when he taught at Liberty University, because he

1352
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,840
used to teach intelligence courses as well as being a

1353
01:11:43,039 --> 01:11:47,119
CIO operative, he said that he could never get them

1354
01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:51,319
to understand that that the original Christians are out of

1355
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:55,600
Syrian Antioch. So the original Christians are actually Arab converts

1356
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,760
at Syrian Antioch, right, because the people they're first called

1357
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:01,760
Christians at Antioch. And he said he could never get

1358
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:06,239
these dumb dumps to understand that that's actual Christianity. It's

1359
01:12:06,359 --> 01:12:10,000
not you know, you're John Aikey run around on the

1360
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:11,000
stage blowing a show.

1361
01:12:11,119 --> 01:12:11,239
Speaker 12: Far.

1362
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1363
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:14,199
Speaker 10: And that's another just to point out something you've touched

1364
01:12:14,239 --> 01:12:16,199
on before, because I think you spoke about this, is like,

1365
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:20,439
how could we ever have Christian nationalism in America when

1366
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,159
you know, the largest Protestant group that being you know,

1367
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:29,119
the broad group of Evangelicalism. Uh, they openly don't view

1368
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,880
Orthodox Christians as Christians. They kind of give lip service

1369
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,119
to Roman Catholics. But you know, there's no real coming

1370
01:12:36,159 --> 01:12:37,840
to get out of these people, especially when they've just

1371
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,840
been so intellectually captured through Zionism. They don't even realize it.

1372
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:43,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1373
01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:46,079
Speaker 2: Well, it's like Doug Wilson said the other day, if

1374
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,279
if his Christian nationalism comes about, you won't have any

1375
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,760
icons or images of Maria in public. So it's like, yeah,

1376
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,000
good luck with Christian nationalism with that loser.

1377
01:12:55,359 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 6: All right, I'm gonna be I'm gonna play Devil's advocate

1378
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,359
right now. By the way, if you don't know that

1379
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:04,720
actually comes from Papism. They literally have courts with Devil's

1380
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:12,239
advocates to argue against canonization of saints. Yes, okay, suppose

1381
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:16,159
suppose I'm going to push back and say, well, maybe

1382
01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:20,159
the problem is just the Doug Wilson evangelical But what

1383
01:13:20,319 --> 01:13:25,319
if you if Christian nationalism simply meant that, in terms

1384
01:13:25,359 --> 01:13:29,920
of immigration policies, you don't let non Christians come into

1385
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:30,359
the country.

1386
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,199
Speaker 10: I mean, I could see that being a possible, like

1387
01:13:34,319 --> 01:13:37,479
alla branch, we would extend to them. But as soon

1388
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:39,880
as you point out to them that, hey, that means

1389
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,479
dual citizens from Israel, that means all non Christians, not

1390
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:49,119
just you know, Muslims, because they obviously Evangelicals don't want

1391
01:13:49,119 --> 01:13:50,760
any Muslims here. But if you say that extends to

1392
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:54,039
all non Christians, that includes Jews, then they would just

1393
01:13:54,119 --> 01:13:55,640
fight you tooth and nail over that, and that would

1394
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,199
be the end of that conversation entirely.

1395
01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:58,119
Speaker 1: Yeh.

1396
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 2: I got to the way to shut it down too,

1397
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,560
because I used to be amongst the Christian reconstructionist camp,

1398
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,359
which is what Doug Wilson is. And when I was

1399
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:11,039
amongst that group, when I was like nineteen, there was

1400
01:14:11,119 --> 01:14:14,560
this stupid debate which is so like out of touch

1401
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,439
with reality because you have this little tiny Presbyterian sect

1402
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:21,039
and you're within the sect, people are dividing the church

1403
01:14:21,119 --> 01:14:25,840
and debating over whether or not in the Christian Reconstructionists

1404
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:30,319
state whether or not people who violate the Sabbath would

1405
01:14:30,319 --> 01:14:33,199
be put to death. Because so, how are you going

1406
01:14:33,239 --> 01:14:36,079
to have a Christian nationalism when you have Puritans who

1407
01:14:36,159 --> 01:14:39,720
believe that if you do something on the Sabbath on Sunday,

1408
01:14:40,319 --> 01:14:41,880
even if you're not a Christian, you've got to be

1409
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:42,479
put to death.

1410
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 1: And so this is how idiotic this shit is.

1411
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,560
Speaker 6: Okay, you see what I'm saying, though, why not just

1412
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,319
get them to agree to Does that mean all versions

1413
01:14:51,319 --> 01:14:55,119
of the Christian nationalism wouldn't work, or like, for example,

1414
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:57,479
do you think you can get Doug Wilson. It may

1415
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,880
be like, Okay, that's not going to work, but you could,

1416
01:15:02,079 --> 01:15:05,560
generally speaking in terms of immigration, just be like, yeah,

1417
01:15:06,079 --> 01:15:09,479
this is what we you know, generally consider Christians, and

1418
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,159
so they're ever getting a priority in terms of citizenship

1419
01:15:14,279 --> 01:15:18,119
and voting or other religions are not allowed because you

1420
01:15:18,279 --> 01:15:20,840
do kind of have some of these principles even in

1421
01:15:21,079 --> 01:15:25,239
early immigration policies that obviously change after nineteen sixty five.

1422
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,239
But in terms of who gets priority immigrating into to

1423
01:15:29,399 --> 01:15:34,119
the United States, we're obviously Christian, you know, you're certain,

1424
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,520
and there was like a tier right in terms of

1425
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:42,600
what country in Europe obviously Anglo like from England and

1426
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,359
stuff like that had priority over you know, Irish and

1427
01:15:45,399 --> 01:15:48,159
stuff like that. Do you think that that's in my

1428
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:53,439
logical possible world argument that I just made logically impossible.

1429
01:15:54,119 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 10: I mean again, I think that's a solid ALI branch

1430
01:15:58,039 --> 01:15:59,800
to reach out to them. But then I think the

1431
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,880
other side of this is that, you know, the crazy

1432
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,800
prods from Doug Wilson to like your you know, your

1433
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:10,239
boomer evangelical the one thing they all agree on to

1434
01:16:10,359 --> 01:16:13,039
the you know, to the death is Zionism, And like

1435
01:16:13,079 --> 01:16:15,840
I said, they're just so intellectually captured by that. So

1436
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:17,560
you have Doug Wilson on one side, but then in

1437
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,199
the end you have all these other evangelicals that are

1438
01:16:20,239 --> 01:16:21,960
the exact opposo when it comes to christian Now. So

1439
01:16:22,399 --> 01:16:24,119
a lot of them are pushing for like Vivek to

1440
01:16:24,199 --> 01:16:26,399
be governor of Ohio and.

1441
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 14: Stuff like that.

1442
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:31,000
Speaker 10: So they're on opposite spectrums of like things like immigration.

1443
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:35,439
As far as you know, they don't view legalized American

1444
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,800
citizens quote unquote as being part of the problem as well.

1445
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:40,720
But the one thing they agree on at the end

1446
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,000
of the day is Zionism, and that's like the anchor

1447
01:16:43,199 --> 01:16:46,399
to all of their political ideology. It's kind of crazy

1448
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,840
to see, but I could liken it too when it

1449
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:54,079
comes to modern Middle Eastern politics that we're dealing with

1450
01:16:54,159 --> 01:16:57,039
with Iran right now and trying to clean up our

1451
01:16:57,039 --> 01:16:59,600
government and get people who are actually are Christian and government.

1452
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,560
Zionism to them is like their COVID. You know, it's

1453
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,159
like we can see it. We obviously know what the

1454
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:06,680
problem is.

1455
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 5: We know it's a scam.

1456
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:11,359
Speaker 2: Well, look they all signed that that agreement, right James White.

1457
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:14,319
I don't I can't remember if Doug Wilson sunder or not.

1458
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,199
But all those evangelical coopers signed this big giant Zionists agreement.

1459
01:17:18,239 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 1: Do you remember that?

1460
01:17:19,039 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well that's why I don't understand the argument we

1461
01:17:22,079 --> 01:17:24,840
have that in right now. Like, so I don't understand

1462
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:26,680
what the difference would be.

1463
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 10: Well again like but the problem is is that with

1464
01:17:30,079 --> 01:17:35,800
if Zionism is your grounding foundational belief structure within all,

1465
01:17:36,399 --> 01:17:41,039
within the majority of Protestantism, which it is, Unfortunately, at

1466
01:17:41,079 --> 01:17:43,119
the end of the day, you're gonna do whatever the

1467
01:17:43,239 --> 01:17:47,760
Zionists want, and Desigonists do not want a white Christian,

1468
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:51,359
you know, right, Erica, I see, Yeah.

1469
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 5: That's a great point. There's the missing premise right there.

1470
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1471
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:55,319
Speaker 5: I mean, look at bebing At in Yahoo.

1472
01:17:55,399 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 10: And people always forget this because every Trump thought, who

1473
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,960
is a massive, massive Zionists, always overlooks the fact that

1474
01:18:03,079 --> 01:18:08,479
the largest outspoken person against Trump's Muslim ban. And if

1475
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:09,920
you guys remember that it was a Muslim ban, that

1476
01:18:10,039 --> 01:18:13,560
wasn't Muslim ban, but was the person against it who

1477
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,279
has allowed us was being that Yahoo beaming nat Yahoo,

1478
01:18:16,319 --> 01:18:18,399
you can find I think it's in herrets or it's

1479
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:18,880
in the Hill.

1480
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,560
Speaker 5: I can't remember which publication has it.

1481
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 10: But he came out and said that he was totally

1482
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,279
against the Muslim ban, that Israel is an open, you know, diverse,

1483
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:31,079
egalitarian society, and we oppose such practices by the American

1484
01:18:31,119 --> 01:18:31,720
government by that.

1485
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 1: But he also said he wanted us to take all

1486
01:18:34,039 --> 01:18:36,319
of the Muslims from Palestine, exactly.

1487
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:40,399
Speaker 10: And that's that's exactly why whether he wants to launch

1488
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:42,479
a bunch of wars, bomb a bunch of places and

1489
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:45,159
then force all the immigrants into America, at the end

1490
01:18:45,159 --> 01:18:47,560
of the day, if you're an evangelical and your underlying

1491
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:50,680
principle is Zionism, then you're obviously going to be like, Okay,

1492
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,359
we're going to put immigration border security, trying to make

1493
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,880
our country, you know, more homogenized, safer, cleaner, and more

1494
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,520
Christian or and put that on the backburn and do

1495
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:01,560
whatever Debe tells us.

1496
01:19:02,119 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And that's why they're stupid ass idiots, and that's.

1497
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 1: Why they're the they're the reason why the countries collapse.

1498
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:09,359
Speaker 5: And they don't see it.

1499
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 10: They're all stuck in this dark, deep pre list. And

1500
01:19:13,199 --> 01:19:15,239
because they're in pre list, you can even point out

1501
01:19:15,279 --> 01:19:17,279
to them. There's been a couple of people and write

1502
01:19:17,279 --> 01:19:19,159
with media will I've said to them, hey, look up

1503
01:19:19,159 --> 01:19:20,960
the term preless because I think you're in it right now,

1504
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,920
and you know, just crickets. They don't understand that they're

1505
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,640
you know, captured intellectually and and honestly, it's a problem

1506
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:29,000
with the heart.

1507
01:19:29,159 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 5: They don't get that

1508
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:50,000
Speaker 3: Monkey outside sound, that a smile, what you're doing someth