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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone. As you might know, we don't get any

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<v Speaker 1>sort of funding from any wealthy benefactors, academic institutions, governments,

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<v Speaker 1>or political parties. Our work is funded by you, our

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<v Speaker 1>listeners and readers on Patreon. In return, our supporters on

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<v Speaker 1>Patreon get access to exclusive content and benefits like ad

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<v Speaker 1>free episodes, bonus podcast episodes, and two exclusive Patreon only

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<v Speaker 1>podcast series, fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a

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<v Speaker 1>little preview of our latest Patreon only episode. You can

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<v Speaker 1>join us, help support our work, and listen to the

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<v Speaker 1>full episode today at patreon dot com slash working class

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<v Speaker 1>history link in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>As we come margin Martin and the Beauty of the

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<v Speaker 2>Day a million dark in Kegeens one thousand mil, last

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<v Speaker 2>grade are branden by the beauty. His sun sun discloses

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<v Speaker 2>on the paper, arousing roses, red and roses.

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<v Speaker 1>And I actually think like this discussion of like the

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<v Speaker 1>things that give workers power in a particular situation, I

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<v Speaker 1>think was actually that was another thing that was like

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<v Speaker 1>it was so methodical, and I, you know, I hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>thought of it like that at the time, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I just thought, like, you know, there's obviously early two

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<v Speaker 1>thousands people are still talking about like the death of class.

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<v Speaker 1>We're all middle class now, you know, the working class

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't exist. It does doesn't exist as a you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a political force or whatever. And so I had, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in my from my political perspectives, like, no, you still

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<v Speaker 1>have workers. You have workers who are you know, working

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<v Speaker 1>in shops or working in you know, like call centers,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, maybe they're not like you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>the UK, they're not working in steel factories anymore like

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<v Speaker 1>or they're not they're not mining like you know, your

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<v Speaker 1>mining doesn't exist in the same way they're used to whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>But you still have people working for a wage. But

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<v Speaker 1>then what this did was show me that actually that

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<v Speaker 1>was that's actually still quite a kind of a flat analysis,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean. And I think, like, just

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, to highlight how often I think about

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<v Speaker 1>this book is I thought about it while watching Sorry

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<v Speaker 1>to Bother You, the film excellent film, brilliant film by

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<v Speaker 1>Boots Riley.

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<v Speaker 3>So good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's excellent film, really, like, you know, can't praise

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<v Speaker 1>it highly enough. But it was a bit and basically

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<v Speaker 1>the main the main character works in a call center

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, and there's an element in the film

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<v Speaker 1>where like they organize a strike. Basically, that's broadly, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I

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<v Speaker 1>felt like one of the underlying messages in it was like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the working class has changed, but the working

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<v Speaker 1>class still exists, and the working.

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<v Speaker 3>Class can still struggle in the way that he used to.

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<v Speaker 1>And there was a bit of me that I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, as much as I agree with the message,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought the choice of the call center worker wasn't great.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, obviously this is not a criticism of

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<v Speaker 1>the film, because you know, the film is art. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's not writing a fucking sociological treatise, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, So like he's made like an artistic film,

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<v Speaker 1>so like this is a I don't want to underline

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<v Speaker 1>that this is you know, it doesn't take away from that,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're not supposed to watch the film as a

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<v Speaker 1>piece of sociology basically, But that aside, if we were

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<v Speaker 1>to watch the film as a piece of sociology, like

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<v Speaker 1>you can't just simply swap out one form of labor

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<v Speaker 1>for another and be like, oh, we can just do this,

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, call center workers can do what carfactory

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<v Speaker 1>workers used to.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that's what.

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<v Speaker 1>Forces of Labor really kind of brought out for me,

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<v Speaker 1>is that like different workers in different industries have there's

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<v Speaker 1>a there's like a material basis for the power that

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<v Speaker 1>they might have, and so, you know, so she distinguishes

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<v Speaker 1>between and I think it's not the only think of

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<v Speaker 1>her categories. I think she takes them from from another

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<v Speaker 1>thinker called Eric olin Wright.

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<v Speaker 3>And basically she.

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<v Speaker 1>Distinguishes in this thing like associational power and structural power,

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<v Speaker 1>and associational power being the power of, you know, being

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<v Speaker 1>in associations. You know, so like the power of being

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<v Speaker 1>in a union, for example, and then there's a structural power,

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<v Speaker 1>which then I think is divided into this the idea

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<v Speaker 1>of like this market I think which John has already

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned this marketplace bargaining power and workplace barkaining power, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the marketplace barking power being you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>the general labor market, how much power do you have,

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<v Speaker 1>Like if you were to lose your job, would you

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<v Speaker 1>be able to be to find another one easily? If

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<v Speaker 1>you lose your job, would you be able to look

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<v Speaker 1>at do you have access to land or whatever that

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<v Speaker 1>you'd be able to grow your own food to sustain

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<v Speaker 1>yourself or whatever. And workplace bargaining power being this power

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<v Speaker 1>that you literally have in the workplace, like again what

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<v Speaker 1>John said about, you know, on the assembly line, if

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<v Speaker 1>you get one group of workers who like walk off,

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<v Speaker 1>then the whole assembly line grinds to a holt. So

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<v Speaker 1>workers end up having quite a lot of power even

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<v Speaker 1>if they don't have like a majority of them going

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<v Speaker 1>on strike at any one particular time.

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<v Speaker 4>And yeah, and this is exactly the kind of key

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<v Speaker 4>difference between the struggles the largely successful struggles in the

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<v Speaker 4>auto industry that Silver talks about in the different regions

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<v Speaker 4>to the textile industry, because she does point out in

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<v Speaker 4>the late nineteenth century, textile workers in the UK were

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<v Speaker 4>successfully able to win a lot better pay and conditions,

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<v Speaker 4>largely on the strength of their associational power that their

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<v Speaker 4>unions in the North of England were so strong and

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<v Speaker 4>had so much support in the community that their strikes

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<v Speaker 4>were so solid that they were able to win better

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<v Speaker 4>paying conditions. But in a lot of other places they

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<v Speaker 4>just have less workplace bargaining power because unlike a car factory,

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<v Speaker 4>if some people on one loom shuts down, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>shut down the whole factory, It only shuts down that loom,

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<v Speaker 4>so smaller groups of people can't cause as much as disruption.

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<v Speaker 4>So that's one of the reasons that textile workers have

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<v Speaker 4>less of that kind of structural power. And other reasons

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<v Speaker 4>are things like the machinery of textiles is a lot

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<v Speaker 4>cheaper than it's a lot easier to set up a

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<v Speaker 4>small textile plant, and cheaper than to set up a

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<v Speaker 4>small car factory, So it's much easier for competitive to

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<v Speaker 4>startup a new company or for one company to move

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<v Speaker 4>a plant then doing carfactory workers. And this is kind

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<v Speaker 4>of useful information for us thinking about organizing where we work,

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<v Speaker 4>where we are, and also just thinking about any other

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<v Speaker 4>struggles going on in the world. It's I think I

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<v Speaker 4>find it's a really useful framework that helped me think

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<v Speaker 4>not just about you know, things going on in the world,

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<v Speaker 4>but also just about where you work yourself and where

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<v Speaker 4>the kind of weaknesses are in your own employer. You

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<v Speaker 4>know where the employers week and where you have potential

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<v Speaker 4>strength and that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>It's I think just.

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<v Speaker 4>A really helpful toolkit basically for thinking about and strategizing

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<v Speaker 4>about that sort of thing about organizing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean again that thing of like you know

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<v Speaker 1>what happens if you go and strike? You know what

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<v Speaker 1>happens if people in your section go on strike?

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<v Speaker 3>Like what are the.

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<v Speaker 1>Broader implications of it? Or like if everyone in your

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<v Speaker 1>workplace goes on strike, or if everyone in and in

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<v Speaker 1>your industry goes on strike, what are the.

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<v Speaker 3>Knock on effects?

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<v Speaker 1>And how does that kind of give you and your

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<v Speaker 1>your colleagues's strength basically, And I think there's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>because obviously she actually talks about the textile industry as

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<v Speaker 1>being the leading industry of the nineteenth century, then the

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<v Speaker 1>car industry the leading industry in the twentieth century, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's sort of like an interesting discussion about what might

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<v Speaker 1>be a kind of a leading industry in the twenty

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<v Speaker 1>first century. I think it was really interesting discussion. And

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<v Speaker 1>also I mean, as well as thinking about in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of where we work, or rather where you work, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, you the listener, the general kind of you,

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<v Speaker 1>how can you organize where you are? It also made

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<v Speaker 1>me think about when you're part of kind of collective organization,

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<v Speaker 1>where might a collective organization you know, direct its collective efforts,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what I mean, and like where weather like uh,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, and that and that's one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that I think is really potentially really useful, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of not just thinking, Okay, yeah, so we

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<v Speaker 1>we have like a we want to organize like.

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<v Speaker 3>A left political group.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, and so we're going to think about the ideas

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<v Speaker 1>that we promote, but actually also thinking about what is

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<v Speaker 1>the working class that has to be mobilized in order

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<v Speaker 1>to move the broader you know, not just that one

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<v Speaker 1>set of workers, but actually to move the broader class itself.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, and I say this as someone who

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I've largely worked in kind of peripheral industries,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I think I think about that quite

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, you know, so that even where we've organized something,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, ultimately within the broader class, it doesn't move

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<v Speaker 1>very much much at all.

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<v Speaker 4>You do say that although one of the industries that

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<v Speaker 4>Stilver identifies as a possible as if not the major

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<v Speaker 4>central industry of the twenty first century, possibly one of

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<v Speaker 4>them that has more significance is education, because the labor

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<v Speaker 4>market now does require a high level of education generally.

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<v Speaker 4>And again I didn't used to have this kind of understand.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know, there's areas of education work where workers

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<v Speaker 4>do hold quite a lot of power, but primarily in

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<v Speaker 4>their role as childcare rather than actural educators. Obviously in

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<v Speaker 4>educators in some sense the product is education, but where

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<v Speaker 4>the capacity for education workers in general to cause the

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<v Speaker 4>most disruption is in not caring for other workers kids,

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<v Speaker 4>so that then other workers have to stay home and

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<v Speaker 4>look after their kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Which actually I think kind of during COVID really brought

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<v Speaker 1>that home, you know, like once the school's closed and

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<v Speaker 1>then it was like, well, you know, how the hell

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<v Speaker 1>are people going to work all day? You know, whether

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<v Speaker 1>they're like people who are going into work you know,

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<v Speaker 1>because they're key workers or whatever, or whether they're working

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<v Speaker 1>from home, you know, if their kids are hope, that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>Production is grinding to a whole, you know. And so yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's true, you know, I think certainly, interestingly, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's certainly in the UK. There's an argument for saying

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<v Speaker 1>that the workplace power that workers have in education gets

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<v Speaker 1>higher the younger the children that they work with are,

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<v Speaker 1>but conversely, the strength of organization, the associational power actually diminishes,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so like primary school workers, so that would

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<v Speaker 1>be like, you know, ages four to eleven. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>they probably have the most power because if they go

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<v Speaker 1>on strike and the kids have to stay home, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>all those parents have to take the day off work.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you can't leave even you know, even a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of eleven year olds, you can't just leave them

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<v Speaker 1>in the house on their own all day. Next up

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<v Speaker 1>would be secondary school, and which is eleven to eighteen,

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<v Speaker 1>and those kids kind of especially in the older end

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<v Speaker 1>of it, they're probably more likely to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>be left alone at home. But then already you see

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<v Speaker 1>that like secondary school teachers in the UK are much

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<v Speaker 1>better organized than primary.

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<v Speaker 3>School teachers almost always.

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<v Speaker 4>And although I would say that the inverse is generally

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<v Speaker 4>the case when it comes to the support workers.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that teaching assistants are more powerful in primary school

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<v Speaker 1>than in secondary school.

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<v Speaker 4>And better organized generally, Yeah, you know generally because well

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<v Speaker 4>in the UK, I mean now it's different because the

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<v Speaker 4>Teachers Union does take school support staff, but before that

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<v Speaker 4>it was school support staff. We're in Unison for the

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<v Speaker 4>most part or GMB, and teachers were in one of

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<v Speaker 4>the teaching unions, and historically the organization of Unison, at

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<v Speaker 4>least in the primary was better than secondary.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's also it's also interesting to think, like

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<v Speaker 1>she does mention a bunch of other industries that have

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<v Speaker 1>the potential to have quite a lot of power. So, like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, she talks about you know, like janitors and

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<v Speaker 1>cleaners and things like that, and I suppose to a

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<v Speaker 1>certain extent that's or there there have been quite a

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<v Speaker 1>few struggles in that industry, oh, you know, like and

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<v Speaker 1>she mentions like justice v janitors in LA. I think

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<v Speaker 1>you could also think about some of the more recent

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<v Speaker 1>stuff in the UK by smaller unions like UVW United

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<v Speaker 1>Voices of the World and the IWGB, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>Industrial Workers of Great Britain. She mentions that as possibly industry.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, she's very careful not to say that these

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<v Speaker 1>will be the new industries that struggle will happen in.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that she's more pointing out that the service

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<v Speaker 4>sector is the biggest part of the economy today and

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<v Speaker 4>then looking at examples of where organizing has happened in

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<v Speaker 4>the service sector.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but she is sort of you know, proffering them

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<v Speaker 1>as like a potential alternative to the to like the

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<v Speaker 1>auto industry in terms of like, Okay, this is this

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<v Speaker 1>will be like the center of gravity for new kind

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<v Speaker 1>of working class movement, you know. And she's not saying

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<v Speaker 1>they will, but she said, like the potentially this is

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<v Speaker 1>one possibility for X, Y and Z reason because yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like you say, services are really important and there's been

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<v Speaker 1>these struggles there. Education, you know, the education industry is

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<v Speaker 1>very important and there's been these struggles there. And transport

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<v Speaker 1>transport is another one. Yeah, and there's some excellent graphs

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<v Speaker 1>as well about again this is this is a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit like a kind of the technological fix, you know

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<v Speaker 1>that Basically she had these excellent graphs and tables about

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<v Speaker 1>how transport strikes move from one form of transport to another,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so starting off with like trains and then

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<v Speaker 1>moving on to you know, things like aviation and stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like that, which is.

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<v Speaker 3>Again it is really really interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>There's one that she mentions, which is the semiconductor industry,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like making like MicroSort from small microchips and

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<v Speaker 1>things like that. And I guess you mentioned that because

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<v Speaker 1>like how central it is to so many products and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, around the world. And I think as far

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<v Speaker 1>as I can tell that one has not particularly come

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<v Speaker 1>to fruition in any in any way.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I think she does address that in that because

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<v Speaker 4>already at that point it was very central. But it's

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<v Speaker 4>a highly automated industry that doesn't need many workers. And

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<v Speaker 4>also because it doesn't need many workers, you can pay

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<v Speaker 4>the ones that there are quite well, so to kind

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<v Speaker 4>of stop it being a terrain of that much struggle.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I guess like one thing, I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if there is a second edition that's coming

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<v Speaker 1>out for this, for this particular book, but if there was,

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<v Speaker 1>I think one sector that that sort of feels lacking

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<v Speaker 1>or that I feel like, you know, could could easily

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<v Speaker 1>have gone in there is you know, stuff like yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like warehouses and couriers and things like that for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>which I suppose is not a new industry, but the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the logistics sector more broadly, which has had

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<v Speaker 1>huge struggles everywhere, and I think increasingly it's becoming kind

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<v Speaker 1>of more a more prominent feature of capitalism, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere basically. And I think what's really interesting about the

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<v Speaker 1>logistics sector is that it's recreating the working class that

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<v Speaker 1>capital had tried to eliminate via the spatial fix, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>moving that you know, those big concentrations of workers around

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<v Speaker 1>big urban centers, which was such a pain in the

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<v Speaker 1>ass for the whole twentieth century, and that you worked

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<v Speaker 1>so hard to get rid of them, and now it's

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<v Speaker 1>recreated them in these like Amazon warehouses or these like

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<v Speaker 1>you know whatever DPD or Hermes or you know whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that is a potential, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>new base of working class organizing. I think in a

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, you know, I don't know. I'm hesitant to

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<v Speaker 1>call it a new industry because obviously warehouses and distribution

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<v Speaker 1>existed before, but I feel like it exists now in

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<v Speaker 1>this logistics sector in a kind of a new way.

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<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I think that that also has the

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<v Speaker 1>potential to be a new sort of center of gravity

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<v Speaker 1>for Bucker's movement.

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<v Speaker 2>As we come Martin, Martin in the Beauty of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Day that brings us to the end of this episode.

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<v Speaker 3>Preview.

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<v Speaker 1>To listen to the full thing and help support our

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<v Speaker 1>work researching and promoting people's history, join us on Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>at patreon dot com slash working class history link in

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<v Speaker 1>the show notes