WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.120 Wait the Lucky Land Slots. You can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:04.080 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.039 while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.760 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.839 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.280 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.320 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:35.240 Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck. 13 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:37.880 I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse. 14 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.000 With family, canoli's and spins mean everything. 15 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:44.880 Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. 16 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:49.840 Introducing the Godfather at Champa Casino dot com. Test your 17 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:53.399 luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot. Someday 18 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:56.039 I will call upon you to do a service for me. 19 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:58.960 Play the Godfather now at Champacasino dot com. 20 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.359 Welcome to the vdW group. NOPERD is necessary if we 21 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:04.400 were privateted by loss he terms and Conditions eighteen plus. 22 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.159 You are now listening to true Murder, The most shocking 23 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:21.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 24 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:28.640 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 25 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:37.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 27 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:39.840 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 28 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:53.599 Good evening. Obviously I knew better than to take a life, 29 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:59.560 but that was before before him. The day we met, 30 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:02.640 in over of nineteen ninety seven, I was working at 31 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.480 the District Court in Traverse City, Michigan, as a deputy clerk. 32 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.960 It was like most other days with arraignments, sentencing, civil 33 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:14.439 case hearings and the like. People shuffling in and out, 34 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.199 everyone taking care of their important business with the court appearances, 35 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:23.120 document filings, paying tickets, fines, and bonding loved ones out 36 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:27.319 of jail. I loved my job. It was extremely satisfying 37 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:31.120 and interesting, with constant interaction with all walks of life, 38 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:34.599 including people on either side of the judicial spectrum and 39 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:40.639 many in between. Suddenly there he was, tall, handsome and 40 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.719 looking so impressive and important in his Michigan State Police 41 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:48.240 uniform with his hat, gun belt and badge. A powerful 42 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.960 man who had chosen a profession to serve and protect. 43 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:56.439 He was extremely friendly and upbeat, smiling profusely. Best of all, 44 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:00.560 he too was unattached. What could go wrong? He was 45 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:05.639 like a dream man. We clicked immediately and began dating exclusively. 46 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.319 But he was not a dream man. He was a nightmare. 47 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.639 As I learned over the next twelve years. Twelve years 48 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:20.599 of enduring domestic violence at its absolute worst, constant abuse, control, 49 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:27.680 manipulation and threats, sadistic sexual deviance, and sexual violence. It 50 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.520 was only going to end one way. Some one would 51 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.840 die in our bed and some one would go to 52 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:39.599 prison for murder. This is my story about domestic violence, resilience, 53 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:44.680 reckoning and survival. The book they were featuring this evening 54 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:48.479 is to Kill or Be Killed, a true crime memoir 55 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:53.479 from prison with my special guest author Joni Ankerson. Welcome 56 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.319 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Ankerson, 57 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.599 are you welcome? Thank you very much. This is an 58 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:10.360 incredible it's an amazing story. Let's get right to where 59 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:15.439 you grew up. Tell us talk about in Michigan, and 60 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.879 you called it an awesome upbringing. So tell us about 61 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.240 you and your family where you grew up in Michigan specifically, 62 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:25.519 and what was so awesome about your upbringing and your 63 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.879 parents and their marriage. Tell us all about it. 64 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.560 Okay, I grew up in Traverse City, Michigan, which is 65 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.439 in the northern part of Lower Michigan, and it's surrounded 66 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:41.439 by Lake Michigan. Really one of the most beautiful places. Really, 67 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:46.120 there is great family. My parents were married for almost 68 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:50.079 sixty years. My dad was the youngest of eleven kids. 69 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:53.240 So I have a huge family, lots of aunts and uncles, 70 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:58.839 also cousins. In Michigan where I live, all the seasons 71 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.319 there's winter, some or spring fall, and they're all perfection 72 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.600 to how they're supposed to be. It was just we 73 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.279 had a great family, a great you know, we didn't 74 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:10.439 have a lot of money, but we were happy and 75 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.360 loved and we're always shown love and taught really good things. 76 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.639 Right, you talked about that you were always your parents 77 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.600 were pretty open minded, and you've children were free to 78 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.439 express yourselves. And again you see that you saw a 79 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:33.839 very loving and loving marriage by your parents. 80 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:37.000 Yeah, it was really extraordinary. You know, there's not many 81 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:40.240 people that have that. It was really true love until 82 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:40.639 the end. 83 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:47.160 What about high school for you and socially where you accepted. 84 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.279 How did you do in school? Tell us a little 85 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:54.959 bit about that before we talked about your first marriage. 86 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:59.240 Okay, No, high school was good. I had lots of friends. 87 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:03.720 I was really in the quickly, you know, the clickie part. 88 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.600 We went out a lot, you know, back in those 89 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.879 days we'd go out and drinking and driving and all 90 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.480 that stuff. But I had lots of friends and really friendly, 91 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.680 and I think I was accepted pretty well. 92 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.800 And the relationship with your parents was great, the relationship 93 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.959 with your father. Even though you have the typical growing 94 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:30.839 pains in terms of teen angst will say, or teenage life, 95 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.199 you didn't really get in any trouble and you still 96 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.800 had a good relationship with your family and friends. There 97 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.079 was nothing out of the ordinary in your. 98 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:44.560 No, nothing with no addition or drinking or Yeah, my 99 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:46.879 parents were really open. I mean we could talk to 100 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:53.600 them about anything. They were always really accepting. Of course 101 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.399 we got in trouble, but it was always a lesson 102 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.879 they did. I really grew up with values and respect 103 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.600 and honesty and just the good things that you're supposed 104 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.160 to have, you know as a person, really. 105 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.000 And your self esteem as well that you were again were. 106 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.439 You went in the most popular kids, but you were 107 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.839 certainly not an outcast or anything. And you had the 108 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.279 love from your parents and your close friends, so you 109 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.480 didn't have any self esteem issues or anything. But tell 110 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:29.240 us about tell us about your early relationships and then 111 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.959 leading up to this early marriage. 112 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.079 I always had a boyfriend. I think that was always 113 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:44.000 important to me for whatever reason. Excuse me. I met 114 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:48.240 my first husband just outside of high school, and you know, 115 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.360 we fell in love right away, and we were really 116 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.319 a whole lot alike. And I wanted to get married early. 117 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.199 I wanted to have kids. It was just what I 118 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.759 I grew up with such a great example, and that's 119 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:00.000 what I wanted for myself. 120 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.600 Right now you had, you say, you had a father, 121 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:09.439 father of two kids. This relationship lasted five years. You 122 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.639 were very young when you met. What was the how 123 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.600 did you guys kind of drift apart? What really happened 124 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.240 in this sort of wow? You know, the relationship evolved, 125 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.079 and so did you? 126 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.839 Right, Yeah, I think we both evolved because we were 127 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.920 twenty when we got married and in love, and I 128 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:30.439 think we kind of we were too young. When we 129 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.720 got married. He became very he was more interested in 130 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:38.919 what was going on outside of our family life. Who 131 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.559 was kind of a selfish person, I always thought, and 132 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.879 I just we weren't happy together. And when we split 133 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.120 up and decided to get a divorce, it actually we 134 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.399 agreed on that. I mean, I can remember being arm 135 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:57.159 and arm walking down Front Street talking about getting a 136 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.200 divorce and how we needed to do that and we're 137 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:01.519 going to make it work for the kids. 138 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.240 Right now, you say it worked out for five years, 139 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.559 and of course he was a good father after that. 140 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.320 You just mentioned. Now you start working for an attorney, 141 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.200 So tell us about what happened working for this attorney 142 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:19.440 and what that led to, and tell us about that 143 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:20.759 relationship that ensued. 144 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.279 Oh well, I worked for attorneys right out of high school. 145 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:29.440 I worked for several different firms in Treverorse City, and 146 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.679 I ended up at a smaller firm, two partner firm. 147 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.200 They did criminal work, divorce work, and one of the 148 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.399 attorneys that was a partner there, he and I began dating, 149 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.960 which was really exciting for me. You know, I had 150 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:47.559 just been divorced and he was a really nice guy, 151 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.120 and that was a really great time in my life. 152 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.840 What happened in that relationship that changed that though, and 153 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:01.480 you talk about a car accident your aunt and uncle. 154 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.559 Tell us what happens with the relationship, and what happens 155 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:06.600 is this accident, how does it affect you? 156 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.320 Well, the accident was my favorite aunt and uncle. We 157 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:16.480 had spent all kinds of time growing up. They had 158 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.360 five kids, our family had four. We were very very 159 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.840 close with them. We saw them probably every weekend, always 160 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:27.639 did family things together, and for whatever reason, I still 161 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:30.480 don't really understand it, they were killed in a car 162 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:36.399 accident and that really deeply affected me. And I became 163 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:42.120 depressed and anxiety, and I was really sick with migraines 164 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:46.039 and I just was in really bad shape. And that 165 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.559 didn't go over very well with my marriage because my 166 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:54.240 husband didn't you know, you don't ever want your supposed 167 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.279 to be like that. I guess I didn't want to 168 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.679 get a divorce, but that's what happened, and then it 169 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:03.720 just kind of is how it all worked out. 170 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:10.120 Now. At that time, you had some psychological problems, like 171 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:14.120 you mentioned about depression and this affecting you with anxiety 172 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.879 as well. Were there any visits officially to see anybody 173 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.600 at that time regarding this? Oh? 174 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:27.559 Yeah, I was actually in the psychological ward at the 175 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:32.120 hospital here in town a couple of different times. Just willingly, 176 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:34.759 I knew I needed to try to get myself together. 177 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.360 I never could really figure out why I was so 178 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:42.039 depressed and was why I was turned upside down? I 179 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:45.120 felt like and I think that's kind of the case 180 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.120 with mental illness. You don't ever really know why you're 181 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.480 feeling the way you are, and it was a really 182 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:53.840 hard road for a while. 183 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:01.639 You also experienced some at least the thoughts of suicide 184 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.200 around this time as well, if not more so. 185 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:10.480 Absolutely, Yeah, I actually tried to take my life after 186 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:13.679 my second husband and I got divorced. 187 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:14.360 I was just. 188 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:20.799 Really depressed. I felt miserable, I felt lost, I felt 189 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:25.159 I think, defeated, and I didn't like myself because I 190 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:29.279 hadn't been able to make my marriage work again. And 191 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:31.879 that's a hard thing for me because I again I 192 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.240 had such a great example with my parents, and that 193 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.879 was I think I put so much pressure on myself. 194 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:42.639 I think that now. Of course, twenty twenty hindsights, you know, easy, but. 195 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:49.120 Yeah, now tell us what happens. I'm not sure of 196 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:53.240 the years of its ninety six or later ninety seven, 197 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.159 but you were employed at the County District Courthouse serving 198 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.679 as a clerk in the civil division and after three 199 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.440 years in the criminal department, and you were a definitely, 200 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:08.440 definitely clerk. What was your family situation and your living 201 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.279 situation at that time, and just personally, what was your 202 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:17.120 situation at that time before we talk about this faithful meeting? 203 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.960 Uh huh. I was pretty happy. I was still working 204 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.440 at the courthouse. I was living in town. My kid, 205 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:28.399 my children and I. They were back and forth to 206 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.240 see their dad, and that was all working out really well. 207 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:35.639 I was I felt like I was gaining ground. I 208 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.799 was working two jobs just to make ends meet, and 209 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:41.360 you know, I had my job and all my friends, 210 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.759 and I really really liked that job a whole lot, 211 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:48.000 and I was just kind of floating, you know, waiting 212 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:50.080 to see what was going to happen next in my life. 213 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.759 And you, like, you say you really like the job, 214 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.679 and you liked the job because of various things, But 215 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:00.879 tell us some of the things that you really did 216 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.120 enjoy about this job itself. 217 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.559 Oh, I loved I loved the people. I mean, I 218 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.919 loved the people that I worked with. You know, people 219 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.879 were coming in and out all day long, It was 220 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.360 really exciting working in the law because I had worked 221 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.639 for attorneys, so the law always interested me. And I 222 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:23.120 actually was able to get my court recorder's license and 223 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.080 I did that part time as well, which is, you know, 224 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:29.559 really exciting sitting next to the judge and hearing all 225 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:33.559 the criminal cases and the civil cases and typing transcripts. 226 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.200 It was just a really good because I come from 227 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:41.159 a really outgoing family, were very voisterous and happy and friendly, 228 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.159 so that job suited me really well. 229 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.679 And you said, also you liked being professional. You liked 230 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.519 getting that kind of attention and having an important job 231 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.480 and looking good and dressing up as well, and then 232 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.840 meeting the people at all loss of life professionals. And 233 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.799 so this is how one day, one faithful day, you 234 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.559 met you say, in October nineteen ninety seven, while you're 235 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.120 working in Diverse City as a deputy clerk, tell us 236 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:14.639 about this meeting, what that day was like and why. 237 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.480 While I was standing at at the counter helping someone 238 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:24.000 in that person left, one of the corrections officers, a 239 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:26.960 female corrections officer from the jail, came over to pick 240 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.840 up documents or drop something off, and her and I 241 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.279 were chit chatting because there was no one else at 242 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.440 the counter, talking about how she was single, I was single, 243 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.000 and there was no good men in the town and 244 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:44.320 what we're going to do. And then suddenly a state 245 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.159 trooper walked in. You know, we had this uniform his hat, 246 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:54.720 looked very professional, very handsome, very you know, really happy looking, 247 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.200 really friendly, and so he came up to the counter 248 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.639 and said hi to the corrections officer. I think they 249 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:07.039 had met before, and we all three of us started talking. 250 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.559 He said, well, what are you guys talking about? And 251 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.240 I said, well, we're talking about how we're single and 252 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.639 there's no good men to date. And he kind of 253 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.799 laughed and said, well, well I'm single, and I said, 254 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.960 oh really. And it was almost as if it was 255 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.919 like an instant attraction, because it's funny because the girls 256 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.399 that I worked with at the courthouse back then still 257 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.559 bring this up to me today that they'll never forget. 258 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.759 When he walked in, how I was like immediately around 259 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:40.480 to the other side of the counter, you know, talking 260 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:45.000 to him and almost almost egging him onto, well, let's 261 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.320 go out, you know kind of thing. 262 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.720 Yeah, well, you certainly left the door open with that 263 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.200 last statement there right half away what are you girls doing? 264 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.559 Right away? You meet, you have a date. What is 265 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.679 his aspirations as a state patrol officer? You find out 266 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.519 almost well immediately what is this his aspirations? 267 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.200 Well, at that time he'd been a state police trooper, 268 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.000 so he was out on the road, you know, his 269 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:17.160 writing tickets to arresting people. He always wanted to be 270 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:19.440 He always wanted to move up the latter and the 271 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.319 next step was to be a sergeant, and I think 272 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:27.240 he eventually really wanted to be a lieutenant. But he 273 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.319 had applied to be a sergeant at different posts and 274 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:36.839 was denied. So we started dating, and he he just 275 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.519 really pursued that and one day he got a promotion 276 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.240 and it was really what he wanted. 277 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.359 Let's go back to the dating, because without that initial 278 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.160 great date, despite the you know, you might look like 279 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.880 a faithful meeting, and certainly you encouraged it, and you 280 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.599 were certainly ready for somebody that could walk through the 281 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.400 door and meet them. You were talking about how hard 282 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:05.000 it was to meet someone. What was it about this 283 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.279 dating his personality other than his good looks and his 284 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.400 you know, his stature and the swagger you say, and 285 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.160 what was it about him that you instantly start dating 286 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.079 exclusively with this man. 287 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:20.319 It was. 288 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.000 The trust that I immediately had and the respect that 289 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.880 I immediately had for him. In his position, you know, 290 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.039 it was a police officer. 291 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:31.519 He was. 292 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.839 To serve and protect and to keep everyone safe. He 293 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.599 was just very I was very attracted to who he 294 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.519 was as a professional, who he was as a person. 295 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.720 I just thought, oh my gosh, he's a great guy. 296 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:52.240 He's chose this profession to help people, to be the 297 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.920 you know, to be the kind of the person on 298 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.319 top in charge, making sure things are done how they're 299 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.039 supposed to be done, following the law. That was really 300 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:02.920 attracted to me. 301 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.599 No, I know this. I don't know how to put 302 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:14.160 this any more sensitive than this. But what was it 303 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:20.160 that you instantly fell for him and sexually and then 304 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:28.119 what was it that was not evident whatsoever in terms 305 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:32.599 of the normalcy of the dating, the normalcy of the 306 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:39.200 love making at the very beginning of this relationship? Was anything? 307 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.680 I mean, was there anything? Pardon me, what you mean? 308 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:44.880 What was different about that? 309 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:48.839 Well? Not different about that? Is it that you say 310 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.400 that there was this trust and then you entered into 311 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.039 this relationship and as we will talk about this relationship. 312 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.039 There was a certain there was certain things that you 313 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.680 were willing to do again, trusting this man, being attracted 314 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.480 this man. Was there anything right from the beginning that 315 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:15.680 seemed to you surrendered any kind of mistrust and you 316 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:20.319 did submit to this person completely right from the beginning. 317 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.079 What did you think? Why do you think that was? 318 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.519 I mean, you've been in other relationships, But what was 319 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.039 it about him specifically? Well? 320 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.880 I think it how I looked at him. I saw 321 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:38.000 him I wanted him to be and he was for 322 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:43.279 a long time. He was exactly how he appeared to be. 323 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.759 I mean, I grew up you respect police officers. They're 324 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.799 like really good people. They're they're great men and women. 325 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:54.960 They're you know, I'm not really sure. But he made 326 00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:00.079 me feel so at ease and so comfortable, and he 327 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:06.279 he was so good at sucking me in. Basically, I 328 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:07.039 think I would. 329 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:10.319 Lucky Land Casino asking people, what's the weirdest place you've 330 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:11.039 gotten lucky? 331 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.160 Lucky in line at the Delhi, I guess, Ahi in 332 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.160 my dentist's office more than months. Actually do you I 333 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:17.960 have to say? 334 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:18.240 Yes? 335 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.319 You do in the car before my kid's pta meeting. Really, yes, 336 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.880 excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 337 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.200 I never went in. 338 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.359 Tell well, there you have it. You could get lucky 339 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:31.519 anywhere playing at lucky Landsloughts dot com play for free 340 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:32.160 right now? 341 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:33.279 Are you feeling lucky? 342 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.519 No, we're not necessary void my long eighteen plus terms 343 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:36.839 conditions of police worsay details. 344 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.359 It's more attracted to just his position and how much 345 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.279 I was going to trust him because that's what I 346 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.519 should do, maybe if that makes sense. I mean, he 347 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.200 would never do anything bad or anything wrong, he's a 348 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.359 police officer. I didn't think I could go wrong dating 349 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:53.960 this man. 350 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.599 You found out early on about his family. His family 351 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.359 and they were from Oklahoma, and he had some siblings. 352 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.680 So tell us about that meeting in terms of what 353 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:10.400 you noticed in terms of the relationship between your husband 354 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.240 Paul or you soon to be husband Paul and his family. 355 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.160 He was the oldest of five kids, and his parents 356 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:22.799 lived in Oklahoma, as did his sister and one of 357 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:25.160 his brothers, and then he had a couple of other 358 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.920 brothers that kind of lived around. But we always got 359 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.720 together the week of Thanksgiving, and he being the oldest, 360 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.400 I noticed straight away, well, he never talked to his 361 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.119 siblings on the phone hardly ever. I mean I talked 362 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.160 to my siblings all the time and saw them, and 363 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.720 it was not that they lived in different places. It 364 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:48.160 was just that he was kind of the odd I 365 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:50.000 think he was the black sheep of the family. He 366 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.799 was very different than anyone else, than any of us 367 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:58.599 other siblings. He was very kind of a loner, very 368 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.240 low law abiding. You know, he didn't drink, he didn't 369 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.599 smoke cigarettes or never did drugs, my gosh. Or he 370 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.200 was just very he was strange. He was he was 371 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:13.920 kind of strange in a weird way. I mean they 372 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.039 loved him, of course, but they didn't He never had 373 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:19.599 much of a relationship. I didn't think with any of 374 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.960 his siblings. There was something about him, and I noticed 375 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.240 it from the start, but I just kind of brushed 376 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:26.680 it off. 377 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:35.200 How about your children's impression of him and your famili's 378 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.960 what did they think of him? 379 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:44.240 My family really liked him at first. I think over time, 380 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.680 and it didn't take very long, they noticed the oddities 381 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:52.000 that he had. He was. He was very arrogant. He 382 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.160 was always thought he was right. Whatever you said really 383 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.759 didn't matter kind of thing. But they respected him also 384 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.440 in his position, and they they thought, oh, he's going 385 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:06.359 to take such good care of her. He's just being protective, 386 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.240 you know, he's protecting her. And they knew that I 387 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.920 really loved him and that I was, you know, happy. 388 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.279 They thought I was really happy, and they were happy 389 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:19.400 for me. My family has never been my parents especially, 390 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.839 they were never the parents to butt in or ask 391 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:29.559 too many questions. My kids liked him because he was 392 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:31.680 a police officer, and they thought, oh, this is great 393 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.079 for our mother. But in time they realized he was 394 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.079 just not controlling. 395 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:42.799 I know, I tried to tempt to ask you this question, 396 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.319 and again I'll ask this one because you've written this 397 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.160 in the book and this will make a little more 398 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.920 sense to the audience. Here. The first time you have 399 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.680 sex with this man, he has piercings. What do you 400 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:00.960 deduce from that? What do you how do you accept that? 401 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:07.160