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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Monster House Presents.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk is proud to be a part of the

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<v Speaker 2>airwave media family, home of such shows as Fork in

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<v Speaker 2>the Road, Small Things Often, and Therapist Uncensored. If you'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast

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<v Speaker 2>dot com. I'm going to read a little excerpt from

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<v Speaker 2>The Satiricon by Petronius. Now, this story dates from the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the first century, but I think you'll find

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<v Speaker 2>it pretty familiar to the modern ear a man named Trimalchio,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a freed slave who'd made a big success

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<v Speaker 2>of himself. He's hosting a party and most of the

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<v Speaker 2>guests are other freed slaves. Tremalchio complains that Necros, who's

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<v Speaker 2>normally quite entertaining, as being too quiet, and so Necros

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<v Speaker 2>tells a strange story.

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<v Speaker 3>Now he thinks the other guests.

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<v Speaker 2>That the party are going to laugh, but he swears

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<v Speaker 2>the story's true and that it took place years ago

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<v Speaker 2>when he was still in a state of servitude. It

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<v Speaker 2>seems that he had fallen in love with the wife

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<v Speaker 2>of an innkeeper, and her name was Melissa of Tarentum.

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<v Speaker 2>Fortune had it that her husband died, and Necroes decides

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<v Speaker 2>that he needs to rush to her aside while he

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<v Speaker 2>has the best chance to beat out any other suitors.

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<v Speaker 2>But then things turned quite odd. I seized my opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>and persuaded a guest in our house to come with

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<v Speaker 2>me as far as the fifth Milestone. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>soldier and as brave as hell, so we tried it

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<v Speaker 2>off about cock Crow. The moon shone like high noon.

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<v Speaker 2>We got amongst the tombstones, and my man went aside

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<v Speaker 2>to look at the epitaphs, and I sat down with

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<v Speaker 2>my heart full of song, and began to count the graves.

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<v Speaker 2>Then when I looked around at my friend, he had

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<v Speaker 2>stripped himself and put all his clothes by the roadside.

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<v Speaker 2>My heart was in my mouth, but I stood like

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<v Speaker 2>a dead man. He made a ring of water around

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<v Speaker 2>his clothes and suddenly turned into a wolf. But please

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<v Speaker 2>do not think I'm joking. I would not lie about

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<v Speaker 2>this for any fortune in the world. But as I

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<v Speaker 2>was saying, after he had turned into a wolf, he

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<v Speaker 2>began to howl, and he ran off into the woods.

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<v Speaker 2>At first I hardly knew where I was, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I went to take up his clothes, but they had

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<v Speaker 2>all turned to stone.

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<v Speaker 3>No one could be nearer dead with the terror than

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<v Speaker 3>I was.

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<v Speaker 2>But I drew my sword and went slaying shadows all

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<v Speaker 2>the way until I came to my love's house. I

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<v Speaker 2>went in like a corpse and nearly gave up the ghost.

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<v Speaker 2>The sweat ran down my legs, My eyes were dull.

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<v Speaker 2>I could hardly be revived. My dear Melissa was surprised

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<v Speaker 2>at my being out so late, and said, if you

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<v Speaker 2>had come earlier, you might have at least helped us.

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<v Speaker 2>A wolf got into the house and worried all our

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<v Speaker 2>sheep and let their blood like a butcher.

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<v Speaker 3>But he did not make fools of us.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though he got off or our slave made a

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<v Speaker 2>hole in his neck with a spear. When I heard this,

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<v Speaker 2>I could not keep my eyes shut any longer. But

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<v Speaker 2>at breakup day I rushed back to my master Gaius's

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<v Speaker 2>house like a defrauded publican. And when I came to

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<v Speaker 2>the place where the clothes had been turned to stone,

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<v Speaker 2>I found nothing but a pool of blood. But when

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<v Speaker 2>I reached home, my soldier was lying in bed like

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<v Speaker 2>an ox, with a doctor looking after his neck. I

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<v Speaker 2>realized that he was a werewolf. And I could never

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<v Speaker 2>sit down to a meal with him afterwards, not if

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<v Speaker 2>you had killed me first. Other people may think what

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<v Speaker 2>they like about this, but may all your guardian angels

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<v Speaker 2>punish me if I am lying.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 4>A giant, hairy creature part apes part mass in Luckness,

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<v Speaker 4>a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the

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<v Speaker 4>Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as the luck

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<v Speaker 4>Ness Monster.

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<v Speaker 1>Monster tal.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. This week we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>with doctor Tanika Kuzman about ancient werewolves. I try to

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<v Speaker 2>spread my monster love across the entire monster spectrum, but

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<v Speaker 2>werewolves definitely rank among my most favored monster topics. So

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<v Speaker 2>I was excited to dig in on a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>deep history of stories about people being transformed into wolves.

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<v Speaker 2>Ancient history is fragmentary because we don't have a contiguous

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<v Speaker 2>body of texts going back into deep antiquity. For most

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<v Speaker 2>of human history, oral transmission was how stories were kept alive,

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<v Speaker 2>and while spoken stories are very entertaining, they are as ephemerals.

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<v Speaker 3>Moths fart.

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<v Speaker 2>So studying the scattered fragments of human history and finding

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<v Speaker 2>stories about werewolves and then trying to figure out not

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<v Speaker 2>just what they say, but where they existed in the

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<v Speaker 2>cultural framework of their historical context is a challenge, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's the sort of challenge that can really turn on

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<v Speaker 2>the mind of.

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<v Speaker 3>An obsessed researcher.

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<v Speaker 2>Says an obsessed researcher. I'll put links to Tanika's work

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<v Speaker 2>in the show notes, so be sure and check those out.

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<v Speaker 2>And at one point we do talk briefly about the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of wild or feral children, and it turns out

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<v Speaker 2>that this topic will be coming up on another Monster

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<v Speaker 2>House podcast, the in research of show that I do

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<v Speaker 2>with Jeb Kard. As we alluded to in this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>the romantic idea of children raised by animals seems to

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<v Speaker 2>hide a much darker story that's less about altruistic wildlife

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<v Speaker 2>and more about parents unable to deal with kids with

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<v Speaker 2>challenges and impairments. We may dig into that further, but

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<v Speaker 2>I can attest that the folklore is far more fun

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<v Speaker 2>than the reality. But this is an episode about werewolves,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is packed full of fun information. So let's

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<v Speaker 2>dive in monstrutal.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>This week on Monster Talk, we're welcoming doctor Tanika Kuzman

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<v Speaker 2>is all right. Doctor Kusman's academic research specializes in the

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<v Speaker 2>development of the man to wolf metamorphic tradition in the

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<v Speaker 2>Greco Roman corpus and its impact on modern werewolf fiction.

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<v Speaker 2>Her research delves into the symbolic meanings behind transformation, examining

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<v Speaker 2>how evolving concepts of human and nonhuman influenced the depiction

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<v Speaker 2>of werewolves and folklore fiction and history. Her research interests

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<v Speaker 2>span folklore studies, posthumanism, and changing perspectives on the body

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<v Speaker 2>in the modern world, and she's currently a casual academic

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<v Speaker 2>at the University of Newcastle in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>So welcome to Monster Talk.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Thank you so much for having me on. This

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be fantastic.

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<v Speaker 5>So, Tanika, we should probably start with how you got

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<v Speaker 5>interested in werewolves? And I have to say I'm very

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<v Speaker 5>jealous of your PhD topic. What a fantastic subject to

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<v Speaker 5>to devote a PhD too. So how did you get

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<v Speaker 5>interested in were wolves enough to tackle them academically?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh goodness, Well, I took a fantastic course as an

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<v Speaker 1>undergraduate student at the same institution that I'm currently working

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<v Speaker 1>at even and it we sort of talked a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit through some of these sort of changing myths and

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<v Speaker 1>myths of transformation and how the body adapts and adjusts

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<v Speaker 1>in all of these like ancient Greek and a few

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<v Speaker 1>Latin mythological structures as well. So I ended up getting

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<v Speaker 1>very obsessed with this ancient text called of its Metamorphoses,

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<v Speaker 1>which is so many different episodes of transformation. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was writing my honors thesis after my undergraduate degree was

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<v Speaker 1>finished on of its Metamorphoses and the amount of sort

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<v Speaker 1>of different ways that women in particular were being utilized

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<v Speaker 1>as all of these different sort of warning stories and

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<v Speaker 1>all of these stories about power. But I got so

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<v Speaker 1>invested in this one episode, the tyrant king la Chaeon,

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<v Speaker 1>who is the very first transformation of a human being

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<v Speaker 1>in the entire minimal foces, right after all the cosmological

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<v Speaker 1>stuff about the creation of the universe, and I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to know so badly why why it was a werewolf

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<v Speaker 1>transformation that was the very first human being being transformed

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<v Speaker 1>in this entire book about all of this historical and

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<v Speaker 1>mythological material, and I just got so obsessed with this

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<v Speaker 1>one story. It really expanded from there. I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>see how this specific type of transformation was being used

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<v Speaker 1>in all these different kind of genres of writing, and

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<v Speaker 1>that was where the obsession truly started.

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<v Speaker 5>I can imagine that happening. There's just so much material there.

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<v Speaker 5>But I've always had a question. Maybe I'm jumping the

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<v Speaker 5>gun too much with this, but was the king transformed

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<v Speaker 5>into a where wolf obviously transformed into a wolf?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, this is my favorite question. The difference is all

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<v Speaker 1>down to this idea of So in theory and in

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<v Speaker 1>sort of philosophical inquiry, we talk about something called the

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<v Speaker 1>human animal binary and the difference between humans and animals

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<v Speaker 1>and how those boundaries are really drawn. And a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the time in the ancient material you find that

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<v Speaker 1>this binary is being developed, so it doesn't have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of strict boundaries just yet. So the way we

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<v Speaker 1>approach a lot of transformation material, especially coming from a

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<v Speaker 1>contemporary error where we have all of these really cool

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<v Speaker 1>werewolf stories that have a tendency to show the werewolf

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<v Speaker 1>in much the same as that sort of there's a

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<v Speaker 1>human being and then there's a monster. It's two parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the same whole, but a lot of the time,

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of dichotomy sort of thing. It's a binary

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<v Speaker 1>there's two pieces, but when you get to the ancient material,

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<v Speaker 1>when you travel all the way back, there not a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of that binary thinking. So for like Chaon in particular,

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<v Speaker 1>in a couple of his different literary appearances, they talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the fact that like Chaon's transformation came because he

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<v Speaker 1>was already a wolf, if not in form, then in

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<v Speaker 1>function and in action. So of its in particular, it's

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<v Speaker 1>such a beautiful, such a beautiful myth to put together,

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<v Speaker 1>but it talks a little bit right at the end

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<v Speaker 1>afterwards that he's still got his sort of human mind

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<v Speaker 1>within him, because that was always the monstrous part of him,

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<v Speaker 1>that was always the animalistic part of him, was that

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<v Speaker 1>he was the wolf. Because they never really have creatures

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<v Speaker 1>or people or gods or any sort of beings in

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<v Speaker 1>these ancient mythological structures that have different forms as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to their mind sort of thing. So while he might

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<v Speaker 1>have transformed into a wolf, it is like a big, hulking,

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<v Speaker 1>proper monstrous kind of wolf that they describe. It is

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<v Speaker 1>a where wolf in the sense I think that we

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<v Speaker 1>take from the contemporary from the modern era where he

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<v Speaker 1>really is that sort of figure.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, I see, So now that I've leapt forward, could

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<v Speaker 5>we possibly backtrack and could I ask you to summarize

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<v Speaker 5>the myth because some of our listeners might not be

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<v Speaker 5>familiar with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely so, also to Ovid's version of events, because

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<v Speaker 1>they can be just a little bit varied in between

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<v Speaker 1>ancient sources. Especially. So the king like Chon is one

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<v Speaker 1>of the first human beings, one of the really early

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<v Speaker 1>Arcadian human settlements in this sort of mythological structure, and

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<v Speaker 1>he is a king who has many, many sons and

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<v Speaker 1>this big old family. And when Jupiter or Zeus comes

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<v Speaker 1>down from the heavens and wants to test human kind

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<v Speaker 1>and see if they're kind of beings that can inherit

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<v Speaker 1>this sort of this kind of worship of the gods,

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<v Speaker 1>if they're good people and if they deserve to sort

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<v Speaker 1>of inherit the earth this way, he comes down and

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<v Speaker 1>he sends signs to the people, these sort of omens

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<v Speaker 1>and little like divine sightings and stuff like that. And

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<v Speaker 1>he's in his disguise as an old man, and he

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<v Speaker 1>wanders into this kingdom and all the people start to

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<v Speaker 1>pray and worship for Jupiter to be walking among them,

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<v Speaker 1>and like Chaeon, gets maybe a little too big for

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<v Speaker 1>his breeches and tells everybody, no, there can't possibly be

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<v Speaker 1>a god walking among us. I know best, I am

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<v Speaker 1>your king. And he decides that instead of providing offerings

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<v Speaker 1>and being pious in the way that the gods expect

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<v Speaker 1>of their kings, He's going to test the God in disguise.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what he does is he violates quite a

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<v Speaker 1>few of the the laws of Xenia, so the laws

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<v Speaker 1>of hospitality that Jupiter is in charge of, and instead

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<v Speaker 1>of offering the God in disguise at a feast, he

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<v Speaker 1>slaughters a hostage, a protected person's and cooks the corpse

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<v Speaker 1>and offers that for the feast for this God in disguise,

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<v Speaker 1>and very very unhappy about this, he decides this is

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<v Speaker 1>the trigger point for Ovid's version of events, especially this

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<v Speaker 1>is the point in which he decides that humanity cannot

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<v Speaker 1>be saved and they must be rebuilt and recreated. So

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<v Speaker 1>Avid raises the kingdom to the ground, he kills all

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<v Speaker 1>of like Chayon's suns, and he transforms, like Chaon, into

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<v Speaker 1>this huge, hulking monstrous is punishment for not knowing and

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<v Speaker 1>for not following the rules that he should have followed.

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<v Speaker 3>Does he get redemption later?

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<v Speaker 1>It would have been nice, I think, to bring him

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<v Speaker 1>back in the story. But like Yon's story especially is

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<v Speaker 1>one of those really special things that weaves in and

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<v Speaker 1>out of a lot of different ancient texts, so's he

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<v Speaker 1>comes up quite often. There's a few constellation myths that

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<v Speaker 1>concern him because one of his children was supposedly the

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<v Speaker 1>nymph Callisto, who is transformed in there later on, so

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<v Speaker 1>she has a whole different mythic cycle, but she she

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<v Speaker 1>has links back to like Chaon as the daughter of

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<v Speaker 1>like Chaon sort of thing, and Plato in particular, So

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<v Speaker 1>he writes political philosophical texts, all this fun sort of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and Plato is one of the earliest references to literary references,

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<v Speaker 1>at least to the like Chaon myth cycle. And he

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<v Speaker 1>actually mentions like Chaon in this teeny tiny little paragraph

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<v Speaker 1>on tyrants and tyrant leaders, and he doesn't even mention

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<v Speaker 1>him by name. He just says the tyrant will they

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<v Speaker 1>will consume their people, like the mythical the King of

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<v Speaker 1>Arcadia did to his people. So there's all these tiny

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<v Speaker 1>little references and to that for that, to a classic

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<v Speaker 1>scholar or someone who's familiar with ancient history, means that

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<v Speaker 1>there was this huge oral tradition where people knew exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what Plato was talking about just by that one little line,

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<v Speaker 1>and we might not have it recorded in its sort

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<v Speaker 1>of ancient form the way that they knew the story,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have to piece it together from all these

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<v Speaker 1>little bits and pieces from the literature later on.

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<v Speaker 3>Gotcha.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's no official canon of the classics, I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>So the reason I found your work was because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>I'm obviously obsessed with were wolves, as listeners will know.

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<v Speaker 3>But we talk about all kinds of monsters.

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<v Speaker 2>But I really have spent a lot of time really

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<v Speaker 2>doing a lot of research on this topic. And I

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<v Speaker 2>came across an article that you had published on The

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<v Speaker 2>Conversation about the ancient history of werewolves, and I thought, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>here's someone working from the oldest stories forward and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>working for modern stuff backwards. This is really great. We

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<v Speaker 2>can kind of meet and somehow still exclude the middle.

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<v Speaker 2>But I thought maybe we could walk through some of

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<v Speaker 2>the history of werewolves. So I would like to ask

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<v Speaker 2>you about what is the oldest werewolf story we've got

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<v Speaker 2>preserved in text or imagery that you've you've come across

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<v Speaker 2>so far.

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<v Speaker 1>So it can be a little difficult for us as

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<v Speaker 1>classicist and knowing full well that there's material that didn't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily survive all the way to the modern day. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a really cool reference all the way back in the

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<v Speaker 1>Epic of Gilgamesh, the little story of that Gilgamesh tells

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<v Speaker 1>in response to the goddess Ishtar and her apparent proposition

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<v Speaker 1>to Gilgamesh. One of my favorite parts of that text

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<v Speaker 1>is the fact that the things that Ishta offers to

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<v Speaker 1>Gilgamesh are actually a sort of reflection of their funerary rites.

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<v Speaker 1>So Gilgamesh's re rejection of the goddess is on the

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<v Speaker 1>basis of the fact that she's told him all these

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<v Speaker 1>lovely things will happen to you, and he said, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>wait a second, that's what we do when people die.

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<v Speaker 1>So are you going to You're going to kill me?

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<v Speaker 1>And he goes, okay, how am I going to get

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<v Speaker 1>out of this? And he starts listing all of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that she's done to her lovers in the past,

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<v Speaker 1>and one of those is that poor shepherd who worshiped

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<v Speaker 1>the goddess so well, and she still transformed him into

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<v Speaker 1>a wolf to be chased around by his hunting dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>Such a delightful little little reference, and it's definitely the

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<v Speaker 1>earliest one that we have for wolf specific transformation.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd say it's the for Gamma Thrones list readers, it's

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<v Speaker 2>the Ramsey Bolton Finish, right.

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<v Speaker 1>They do adapt it quite well.

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<v Speaker 5>And do we see versions of this story in other

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<v Speaker 5>cultures at all? Or is this a completely unique tale?

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<v Speaker 1>This one in particular seems to me to be fairly unique,

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<v Speaker 1>part because it's such a small like a small reference

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<v Speaker 1>to it does sort of almost have echoes and a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of later stories that talk about the There's one

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<v Speaker 1>specific narrative written by I believe it is Petronius in

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<v Speaker 1>the first century AD, in the satiricin which is actually

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<v Speaker 1>it's a book on satire. It's quite literally a satirical story.

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<v Speaker 1>But he has this great little folkloric story about a

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<v Speaker 1>man who walks through a cemetery with a soldier and

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<v Speaker 1>is terrified when the soldier starts tearing his clothes off

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<v Speaker 1>and transforms a wolf under And this might be one

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<v Speaker 1>of the first instances where we see the connection to

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<v Speaker 1>the full moon is because as the moon is as

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<v Speaker 1>it is on high noon. So this little tiny one,

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<v Speaker 1>this little tiny story that doesn't get repeated anywhere else.

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<v Speaker 1>It's this sort of folkloric, more personal or domestic kind

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<v Speaker 1>of story. And that were wolf in particular is discovered

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<v Speaker 1>because he hunts after a pack of sheep and the

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<v Speaker 1>locals stab him in the neck as the wolf, and

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<v Speaker 1>that wound is transferred to him when he transforms back

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<v Speaker 1>into a human, and they discover that man is the

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<v Speaker 1>were wolf because he has a wound on his neck,

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<v Speaker 1>just as to the right it is.

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<v Speaker 2>That is such a classic motif of all the werewolf

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<v Speaker 2>floor and a lot of the witchlore that comes up

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<v Speaker 2>in medieval times. Yeah yeah, yep, no, absolutely. Now we

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<v Speaker 2>lost gilgrimesh for thousands of years, but the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>a werewolf didn't die out. So where does it pop

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<v Speaker 2>up next?

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<v Speaker 3>Is is it Greek? I guess next? And then rollman

337
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<v Speaker 3>or how does that flow?

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<v Speaker 1>So definitely Greek first and foremost. The really interesting part

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<v Speaker 1>about were wolves I think in Greek culture, ancient Greek

340
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<v Speaker 1>culture specifically, is that that edge of animality, that animal

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<v Speaker 1>sort of in heritance that the were wolf has means

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<v Speaker 1>that it's so often associated with monstrous races that exist

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<v Speaker 1>outside of the Greek borders. So in particular in the

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<v Speaker 1>Greek literary history. One of the next ones we have

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<v Speaker 1>is from Herodotus in the histories, and this is Herodotus

346
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<v Speaker 1>is sometimes called the father of history. He sits down

347
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<v Speaker 1>and he says, I'm going to write about historical events,

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<v Speaker 1>and then manages to include a whole bunch of mythical

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<v Speaker 1>material as well. But he's the first one to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's a little practice involved in taking it all out.

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<v Speaker 1>But Herodotus's story concerns tribe of people called the Nurians

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<v Speaker 1>who exist in the sort of Black Sea region that

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<v Speaker 1>they're absolutely really convinced has got a whole host of

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<v Speaker 1>monstrous races that exist beyond these borders. And the Nurians

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<v Speaker 1>in particular are men who transform into a wolf for

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of days out of the year. And this

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<v Speaker 1>teeny tiny little refference to these sort of nomadic people

358
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<v Speaker 1>that exist to the north is couched in all of

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<v Speaker 1>these really cool descriptions of all of these monstrous races

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<v Speaker 1>that occur, these people that might have human flesh included

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<v Speaker 1>in all of their feasts or who have like strange

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<v Speaker 1>customs and weird rituals and stuff like that, and it

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<v Speaker 1>does it might signify to us as sort of further

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<v Speaker 1>connection into Baltic mythology and like sort of that huge

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<v Speaker 1>Siberian region that had wolves to contend with as actual predators.

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<v Speaker 1>So the likelihood of folding that into their folkloric beliefs

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<v Speaker 1>and sort of religious structures is so much higher when

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<v Speaker 1>they have that interaction in person with the wolves.

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<v Speaker 5>So we get where wolves in both Roman and Greek mythology.

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<v Speaker 5>But did both cultures look at where wolves the same

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<v Speaker 5>way or did they have different beliefs or was there

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<v Speaker 5>a lot of crossover between the the two mythologies.

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<v Speaker 1>There is a bit of crossover. I think fundamentally. The

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<v Speaker 1>Roman mythological structure does inherit quite a bit from the Greeks,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of those attitudes tend to get sort

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<v Speaker 1>of mixed in together. It's interesting to see when we

377
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<v Speaker 1>do have the instances where these sort of little stories

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<v Speaker 1>that might be more concerning to say Greek culture that

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<v Speaker 1>had more interaction with people and those monstrous races like

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<v Speaker 1>the Scythians. And then when that specific myth might be

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<v Speaker 1>adapted into a Roman text. It's interesting to see the

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<v Speaker 1>way that that interaction might change or might stay the

383
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<v Speaker 1>same for us, and a lot of the times it

384
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<v Speaker 1>does stay the same, which is an interesting thing. Given

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<v Speaker 1>Rome's own association with wolves. It's a whole different angle

386
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:53.200
<v Speaker 1>on it. Like they're founding narratives, they're founding.

387
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.359
<v Speaker 3>Volved what was the founding myth?

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<v Speaker 1>So Rome's founding myth is centered around the brothers Romulus

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<v Speaker 1>and Remus and their birth story specifically, so is so

390
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<v Speaker 1>held under prophecies. The prophecy is that these these children

391
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<v Speaker 1>will will not be not be kind to the line

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00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.720
<v Speaker 1>of inheritance specific to their I believe it's their grandfather.

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<v Speaker 1>So the birth of the children who are apparently they

394
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<v Speaker 1>are born to Rhea Sylvia, I might be mispronouncing that

395
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<v Speaker 1>it's been a while since I've gone back.

396
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.119
<v Speaker 3>Over my room and founding there she won't mine.

397
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's cross our fingers. Yes, So she is put into

398
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<v Speaker 1>a cult for protection, effectively, so the vessel virgins. She

399
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:50.240
<v Speaker 1>is introduced to this specific worship practice in order to

400
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<v Speaker 1>keep her away from men, so she can't have children ever,

401
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.279
<v Speaker 1>and they can't usurp their grandfather and prophecy solved, but

402
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.359
<v Speaker 1>as as it goes, that never really solves anything in

403
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.960
<v Speaker 1>the ancient stories and mars or areas, if we're going

404
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.359
<v Speaker 1>with the Greek name comes down from the heavens and

405
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.319
<v Speaker 1>still manages to impregnate Ria Silvia with the children that

406
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:16.480
<v Speaker 1>inevitably fulfill the prophecy, but they are sort of they

407
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.160
<v Speaker 1>are still in danger for it, so they're abandoned by

408
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.559
<v Speaker 1>a river and rescued by a she wolf who feeds

409
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:24.960
<v Speaker 1>them and nourishes them and make sure that they still

410
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.039
<v Speaker 1>survive to adulthood in order to fulfill the promises. And

411
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.759
<v Speaker 1>there's lots of nonsense that happens in between. And the

412
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.920
<v Speaker 1>founding of Rome is so inherently there's such a big

413
00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:40.440
<v Speaker 1>mythic cycle, so much information involved in it. But when

414
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.519
<v Speaker 1>Romulus murders's brother Remus and establishes establishes Rome, they still

415
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.000
<v Speaker 1>carry that wolf, that wolf imagery. It's so inherent in

416
00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.440
<v Speaker 1>their image going forward. So it's surprising for especially academics

417
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:59.359
<v Speaker 1>that look through these sort of history of images and

418
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:02.599
<v Speaker 1>the way that the this iconography is adopted. It's so

419
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 1>interesting to see the Romans repeating folklore that might insist

420
00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:10.920
<v Speaker 1>that the wolf, the were wolf is this sort of

421
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:14.759
<v Speaker 1>like monstrous creature or their animal law. Sometimes it's an

422
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.160
<v Speaker 1>inherently like foreign connection these people who are not Roman

423
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.839
<v Speaker 1>or who are not Greek and sort of see that

424
00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.759
<v Speaker 1>involved in a culture that is so obsessed with the

425
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.920
<v Speaker 1>wolf imagery beyond the specific transformation context.

426
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:35.440
<v Speaker 2>So narratively, I mean, I think it's pretty easy to

427
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.000
<v Speaker 2>hop into the idea of these are stories about people

428
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:44.079
<v Speaker 2>turning into wolves, but why or how they turn into wolves,

429
00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:47.000
<v Speaker 2>whether it's on purpose, which seems to be really common

430
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.759
<v Speaker 2>by the Middle Ages, or whether it's as a curse,

431
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:55.400
<v Speaker 2>which was in the source material that seems to get changed.

432
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:57.920
<v Speaker 2>So like ultimately you come out in the twentieth century

433
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:03.079
<v Speaker 2>with the were wolf is a is the primary narrative,

434
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 2>but they also i guess in the twentieth century and

435
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.200
<v Speaker 2>also a lot of people want to turn it to

436
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.519
<v Speaker 2>being a superhero because they look at all the advantages

437
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:12.079
<v Speaker 2>where wolves have over humans and they're like, oh, this

438
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.000
<v Speaker 2>is awesome. But it's also kind of like Jacqueline Hide

439
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.880
<v Speaker 2>or The Hulk, where most of the stories you become

440
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.079
<v Speaker 2>a ravenous beast and don't have control. I'm curious in

441
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.079
<v Speaker 2>the ancient world were their story. Did you run into

442
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.599
<v Speaker 2>any stories where the.

443
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.559
<v Speaker 3>People intentionally became wolves?

444
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, obviously the metamorphosis when sounds like it might

445
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.480
<v Speaker 2>be that's the case, but it's a little unclear it is.

446
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.599
<v Speaker 1>There's a really cool tradition that sort of almost spans

447
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.799
<v Speaker 1>from the like Hayon story. So the region that he

448
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:47.319
<v Speaker 1>was a king in in Arcadia is sort of treated

449
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.640
<v Speaker 1>in a lot of mythological sources and historical ones as

450
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.960
<v Speaker 1>the original place in which the Greeks were this sort

451
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.160
<v Speaker 1>of almost like indigenous area of Greece, the oldest sort

452
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>of kingdoms come from. And I think because of that,

453
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.079
<v Speaker 1>and because of that link, there was this really cool

454
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:10.319
<v Speaker 1>cult dedicated to Zeus, like Chaos so Wolf Zeus effectively

455
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:13.519
<v Speaker 1>in this region where they believed Zeus was birthed in

456
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:15.759
<v Speaker 1>these caves and sort of grown up in these caves,

457
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.920
<v Speaker 1>and there there was a really extensive cult that had

458
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.319
<v Speaker 1>all these really cool practices, the Arcadian Cult, and they

459
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:28.039
<v Speaker 1>in particular developed these sort of rituals and stories about

460
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:32.920
<v Speaker 1>where wolf transformation for the members of this group. It's

461
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 1>spoken about in a couple of different sources, and a

462
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.599
<v Speaker 1>few have some different details to provide and sometimes conflicting details,

463
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:41.880
<v Speaker 1>which is the way, but a lot of the sources

464
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:46.400
<v Speaker 1>tell us that the ritual as it proceeded, was a

465
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.759
<v Speaker 1>young boy, usually an adolescent boy, was chosen by lot

466
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 1>from all of the families that were involved in this

467
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 1>this worship in this cult, and he would be taken

468
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.039
<v Speaker 1>to a lake where he would shed his clothes and

469
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.079
<v Speaker 1>swim across the lake and then transform into a wolf

470
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.440
<v Speaker 1>that he would have to live as a wolf for

471
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.079
<v Speaker 1>anywhere between I think it's seven and ten years. They

472
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 1>don't give us specific numbers or corresponding numbers at least,

473
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and he would so go and live his life as

474
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.000
<v Speaker 1>this wolf, and then when he was done with his initiation, right,

475
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.759
<v Speaker 1>he would come back to the lake and he would

476
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:22.920
<v Speaker 1>swim back across the lake, and he would pick up

477
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the clothes that he had hung on a tree and

478
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.599
<v Speaker 1>they would still be there, and he would transform back

479
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:30.720
<v Speaker 1>into a human being, but with the age that he's

480
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.359
<v Speaker 1>spent as a wolf. The years he spent added to

481
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.359
<v Speaker 1>his age and to his appearance, and that was the

482
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.799
<v Speaker 1>big initiation right for this specific passage passage cult. Rather,

483
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.319
<v Speaker 1>so this was I think one of the only instances

484
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:46.319
<v Speaker 1>that we can sort of point to in antiquity in

485
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.119
<v Speaker 1>which this is an active choice to be made by

486
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.799
<v Speaker 1>the person who was transforming ah Neat.

487
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.680
<v Speaker 5>It seems to me, I don't know how much you

488
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.960
<v Speaker 5>know about medieval history and mythology, but it seems like

489
00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.480
<v Speaker 5>that story is played out a lot by the Middle

490
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:03.000
<v Speaker 5>Ages are in kind of French stories and English stories

491
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:06.440
<v Speaker 5>about were wolves. That seems to be a similar kind

492
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 5>of story.

493
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:09.880
<v Speaker 2>It does feel like those elements get carried forward absolutely.

494
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:13.559
<v Speaker 5>But I wanted to ask you, I don't know if

495
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 5>you'd know this, but from all of your research, do

496
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.039
<v Speaker 5>you get a feel for how the average person felt

497
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.759
<v Speaker 5>about were wolves in these times? In ancient Greece, in

498
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:27.640
<v Speaker 5>ancient Rome, how did they feel about were wolves?

499
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.400
<v Speaker 1>Actually? Yeah, it's there's a couple of different threads that

500
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 1>come together, and I think it really speaks to how

501
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 1>many different genres of writing are included. These are including

502
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.839
<v Speaker 1>these sorts of myths and folk tales and stuff like that.

503
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Is that we almost want to see a sort of

504
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.759
<v Speaker 1>like more domestic narrative coming through. In a lot of

505
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:53.839
<v Speaker 1>the later texts, especially, they talk about this specific term

506
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:57.480
<v Speaker 1>and it's used as an invective, and I'm probably going

507
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 1>to mispronounce this. I think it is syphilis. It's certainly

508
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:06.200
<v Speaker 1>how I was how I have been pronouncing it. Goodness knows.

509
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:07.160
<v Speaker 1>The Australia.

510
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 3>What does it mean?

511
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.240
<v Speaker 1>It means skin changer. And the fantastic thing about this

512
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.440
<v Speaker 1>is it's associated with a couple of different werewolf figures

513
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.119
<v Speaker 1>and talked about in in reference to or in relation

514
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.279
<v Speaker 1>to werewolf transformations. But a lot of what of the time,

515
00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:27.759
<v Speaker 1>A lot of a lot of the time it's being

516
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:31.599
<v Speaker 1>used as an invective to sort of mean like two

517
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 1>faced or someone to not be trusted because they change

518
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.680
<v Speaker 1>their skin. And it's so connected to this mythology that

519
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.720
<v Speaker 1>it would make us think that this implication that someone

520
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.039
<v Speaker 1>is a werewolf or someone transforms into a were wolf

521
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.960
<v Speaker 1>means that they're not to be trusted. And that's something

522
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:53.079
<v Speaker 1>we did get from. So Pomponius Mela's rather Petronius is

523
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:56.599
<v Speaker 1>Satirican that did that was a part of the story.

524
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.759
<v Speaker 1>Right at the end, he has a little line that says,

525
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:01.880
<v Speaker 1>I knew now that this soldier was a werewolf, and

526
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:03.799
<v Speaker 1>I could never sit down to a meal with him

527
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:06.839
<v Speaker 1>again ever, because he was evil and he's it's this

528
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.359
<v Speaker 1>intrinsic belief that these people are terrible people because the

529
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.559
<v Speaker 1>transformation indicates that's what they are.

530
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:17.640
<v Speaker 5>Have the god Janis who Janus is just thinking that, Yeah, but.

531
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.400
<v Speaker 2>It's funny because Janis is like he's two face, but

532
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.599
<v Speaker 2>he's also the god of entrances and like, so I

533
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:28.000
<v Speaker 2>don't think he's universally negative, but the whole Janus two face, yeah,

534
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>two face, now for sure he's So did you did

535
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:33.519
<v Speaker 2>your research take you into any sort of post Roman

536
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Empire era?

537
00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:39.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Absolutely so I I did, Uh, for some reason,

538
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I thought it would be a very interesting thing to

539
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.519
<v Speaker 1>go through a whole bunch of French philosophy, because everybody

540
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>knows how easy French philosophy.

541
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:48.440
<v Speaker 3>Dozens of people have followed that path.

542
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:48.559
<v Speaker 4>So.

543
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:57.039
<v Speaker 6>At least, yeah, sure, absolutely, And I sort of found

544
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:01.799
<v Speaker 6>my way to a bunch of contemporary where wolf stories

545
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.640
<v Speaker 6>and adaptations and sort of stuff like that.

546
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.680
<v Speaker 1>And what I was finding in part, I think because

547
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:10.160
<v Speaker 1>I skipped over a lot of this medieval era material

548
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.079
<v Speaker 1>on were wolves because I knew how connected it ended

549
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.279
<v Speaker 1>up being to that witchcraft and like witch trials and

550
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.880
<v Speaker 1>all of that sort of stuff, and it ended up

551
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:21.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of not necessarily corrupting, but maybe changing the narrative

552
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.799
<v Speaker 1>quite a bit, and it's not what I really wanted

553
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:26.599
<v Speaker 1>to focus on. So I jumped all the way into

554
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:29.519
<v Speaker 1>the modern era, and I was finding all of these

555
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:34.039
<v Speaker 1>examples of were wolf stories that almost mimicked the context

556
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.759
<v Speaker 1>or the themes of the stuff I was reading in

557
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 1>the ancient world, and it was the coolest thing to

558
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.039
<v Speaker 1>be able to go through and just I mean, I

559
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:45.079
<v Speaker 1>was a huge fan of This might be a bit embarrassing,

560
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:48.119
<v Speaker 1>but I love it so much, the Hugh Jackman Van

561
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Helsing movie.

562
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:53.160
<v Speaker 3>It is a fun ride.

563
00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 2>But you're the first person I think I've talked to

564
00:32:56.039 --> 00:33:00.519
<v Speaker 2>who's also liked it so yeah.

565
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.599
<v Speaker 1>So much. It's so awful and it's so beautiful, and

566
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.039
<v Speaker 1>I think I can appreciate it so much.

567
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:08.960
<v Speaker 3>I love their patchwork man too.

568
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, they're sort of Frankenstein character too.

569
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:12.519
<v Speaker 3>A lot of fun.

570
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:16.920
<v Speaker 1>You just throw so many different creatures and monsters right

571
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.759
<v Speaker 1>in there, with no concern about the fact that those

572
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.039
<v Speaker 1>are completely different historical Ay ye exactly.

573
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:23.559
<v Speaker 3>It's just that put it in the blender and see

574
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:24.240
<v Speaker 3>what it tastes like.

575
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Here's Dracula just for fun, and it's so good. But

576
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.680
<v Speaker 1>the web of transformation in that film. It's actually one

577
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:34.519
<v Speaker 1>of the things that convinced me to go on this

578
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:42.519
<v Speaker 1>big right because in that in that specific narrative, the

579
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.000
<v Speaker 1>we wolf tears the skin of the human often reveals

580
00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:50.279
<v Speaker 1>the wolf underneath. Yes, really, it's a really cool I mean,

581
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:54.480
<v Speaker 1>for its time, it's such a fantastic cgi example. Yes, Yes,

582
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.400
<v Speaker 1>it was such a cool thing for me to see

583
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.920
<v Speaker 1>growing up, especially like all of this sort of monster

584
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:03.279
<v Speaker 1>obsession that I had as a child and to see

585
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.119
<v Speaker 1>it sort of depicted that way, and it started me

586
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:11.480
<v Speaker 1>on this really interesting journey through some contemporary examples to

587
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.840
<v Speaker 1>try and see all the ways that we've shown the

588
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.400
<v Speaker 1>werewolf transforming in a really physical sense. And Van Helsing

589
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.960
<v Speaker 1>did it so well, that tearing of the skin off

590
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:25.559
<v Speaker 1>and they're crawling up the walls, and all I could

591
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:28.599
<v Speaker 1>think was, is there, does that mean that they have

592
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.400
<v Speaker 1>a limited life cycle? Is there a certain number of

593
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:35.199
<v Speaker 1>moments that they get to tear that skin off and

594
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 1>eventually it'll run out and they don't transform anymore. And

595
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.320
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to know more about the structure around something

596
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.400
<v Speaker 1>like that, because that sort of like infinite movement, the

597
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.719
<v Speaker 1>back and forth and the implication that there's no two

598
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:51.280
<v Speaker 1>sides to the creature. There's no two sides to the werewolf.

599
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.679
<v Speaker 1>It is one whole thing that is like full and

600
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:59.239
<v Speaker 1>complete within itself was something that I just I really

601
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.280
<v Speaker 1>wanted to delve into because it felt so so much

602
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.840
<v Speaker 1>more true to the ancient material than anything I'd sort

603
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 1>of seen before, and that led me right through. So

604
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:15.880
<v Speaker 1>I talked about the MTV adaptation of teen Wolf, the

605
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:21.599
<v Speaker 1>TV series Wow, which is fantastic, fantastic example of how

606
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.559
<v Speaker 1>morality gets folded into the werewolf narrative so often.

607
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:27.599
<v Speaker 3>I never watched that because I got old, but.

608
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.400
<v Speaker 1>It is delightful. It's such a cool, almost close bracket

609
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:40.559
<v Speaker 1>to the ancient stories of like chaon the way that

610
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:44.480
<v Speaker 1>they sort of manipulate morality and authority and their idea

611
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of the true alpha, which is the alpha that can

612
00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:51.760
<v Speaker 1>that can take power without needing to kill for it.

613
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.960
<v Speaker 1>It was such a cool, almost like superhero version of

614
00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:59.599
<v Speaker 1>events that still referenced all the way back to the

615
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.639
<v Speaker 1>like Hay mythology that they sort of used as their

616
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 1>inaritance in the TV series. They talked about it.

617
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.840
<v Speaker 2>See you mentioned the Van Helsing movie. I would like

618
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.239
<v Speaker 2>to mention for our listeners as a fan. Steven Sommers

619
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:14.880
<v Speaker 2>was the director, and you would probably know him from

620
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 2>The Mummy, the n eighty nine Mummy with Brendan Fraser,

621
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.320
<v Speaker 2>but he also did a movie called Deep Rising, and

622
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.400
<v Speaker 2>if you like creature features, that one's really good.

623
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:25.440
<v Speaker 3>I'd say it's a treat.

624
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>But since the hero is treat William's rest in Peace,

625
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.760
<v Speaker 2>that's too much of a puny even for me.

626
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.320
<v Speaker 5>Well, and also talking about that movie, talking about the

627
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:37.960
<v Speaker 5>tearing off of the skin is kind of making me

628
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 5>think of the Inquisition and the werewolf Trials. So, Tanika

629
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 5>have you has your research taken you into the were

630
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.320
<v Speaker 5>wolf Trials? I know that's a leap away from ancient

631
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.880
<v Speaker 5>Rome and Sumerians.

632
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:57.559
<v Speaker 1>But so in a very sort of tangential way. I

633
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.519
<v Speaker 1>did so. As I mean, as a part of a PhD.

634
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.880
<v Speaker 1>One of the big things you do is a big

635
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.480
<v Speaker 1>literature review and you go through in your mind all

636
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.920
<v Speaker 1>of the little places where your sort of background information

637
00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:12.639
<v Speaker 1>may lie. And I did a little bit of work

638
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:18.800
<v Speaker 1>in and around medieval uses of ancient texts to provide

639
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:23.079
<v Speaker 1>a sort of sense of authority to the sort of

640
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.840
<v Speaker 1>developing narratives, especially around the literature that was being published

641
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:30.079
<v Speaker 1>as a part of witch trials and this huge sort

642
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:36.360
<v Speaker 1>of call to identify creatures and identify witches especially, so

643
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:41.639
<v Speaker 1>there isn't a huge reference, but there is one small

644
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:46.760
<v Speaker 1>one in the big main witch hunting manual, the Malleus Malafakaram,

645
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:50.519
<v Speaker 1>which is white texts, those big ones that sort of

646
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.119
<v Speaker 1>kick off quite a lot of the events that do occur,

647
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.559
<v Speaker 1>and there is one small one, but it's sort of

648
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.679
<v Speaker 1>filtered through a couple of different religious like early religious

649
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:03.159
<v Speaker 1>Christian texts, so it doesn't necessarily follow. But there are

650
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:09.280
<v Speaker 1>a whole lot of especially sixteenth century demonological texts. There's

651
00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:13.320
<v Speaker 1>a couple written by There's one Reginald Scott writes one

652
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.960
<v Speaker 1>the Discovery of Witchcraft. I think it is the title

653
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.639
<v Speaker 1>for that one. And I want to say there's a

654
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:22.599
<v Speaker 1>king that writes a specific demonological texts as well.

655
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:24.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's King James, right.

656
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:27.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the one. So when I was going

657
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.119
<v Speaker 1>through and doing my literature review, I think it's in

658
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Reginald Scott's text where there's this really cool line that

659
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:36.679
<v Speaker 1>sort of draws back to the epic poets, to the

660
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Homeric texts, all the way back some of the earliest

661
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:43.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of literary examples that we have, and one in

662
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:47.559
<v Speaker 1>particular was that people could turn into were wolves or

663
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.559
<v Speaker 1>could be transformed into were wolves because the witch Circe

664
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.800
<v Speaker 1>who trapped Odysseus on his island, on her island rather

665
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 1>had all of these animals around her and could transform

666
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.719
<v Speaker 1>pil into animals, and that was there, that was their

667
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.519
<v Speaker 1>sort of authority of transformation and how that sort of functions.

668
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.000
<v Speaker 1>So the ancient texts really did have a lot of

669
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:15.960
<v Speaker 1>influence on the way that people would believe, people would

670
00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:20.639
<v Speaker 1>sort of create these medieval texts and these understanding of

671
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:24.480
<v Speaker 1>how it happened. The witch trials themselves, I know, are

672
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.440
<v Speaker 1>very very focused, I think, on the connection between witchcraft

673
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:32.719
<v Speaker 1>and Satanism, which is a whole different area of inquiry,

674
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.239
<v Speaker 1>and how sort of like how witchcraft practices and some

675
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:40.719
<v Speaker 1>of them inherited from the ancient Greek and Roman cultures,

676
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:45.119
<v Speaker 1>tended to interact with sort of introducing and sort of

677
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 1>really strong Christian and Catholic developing sort of doctrines, and

678
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.119
<v Speaker 1>the were wolves that get caught up in that have

679
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:57.000
<v Speaker 1>a tendency to either be demonized by way of their

680
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 1>connection to magic, which is something that happens quite often,

681
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:03.159
<v Speaker 1>or even potentially on the other side of that, saved

682
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 1>by the fact that a lot of this was really

683
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:09.519
<v Speaker 1>really very invested in women and femininity, so the fact

684
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.679
<v Speaker 1>that they were masculine figures can sometimes sort of shift

685
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:19.280
<v Speaker 1>that identification or accusation of witchcraft from them. So there

686
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:24.280
<v Speaker 1>are occasions in which there's a couple of accusations of

687
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:27.559
<v Speaker 1>where wolves in particular, that did end in those sort

688
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.719
<v Speaker 1>of trials. It didn't happen very often, and it is

689
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:33.639
<v Speaker 1>sort of once it does happen, it's only a very

690
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Speaker 1>short period of time in which the trials are occurring

691
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.880
<v Speaker 1>and then they completely stop. And it does have quite

692
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.360
<v Speaker 1>a few interactions with the area of inquiry concerned with

693
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.599
<v Speaker 1>feral children as well, So the kids that sort of

694
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.880
<v Speaker 1>get caught up in or running away I guess from

695
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:53.280
<v Speaker 1>parents from growing up in these wilderness contexts and stuff

696
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.760
<v Speaker 1>like that and trying to be reintegrated into society.

697
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, raised by wolves Malgli kind of storyline, right, Yeah, absolutely.

698
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:03.320
<v Speaker 1>So there's a surprising amount of cross there for the

699
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 1>witchcraft trials and the were wolf trials.

700
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.440
<v Speaker 3>That's really it.

701
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.880
<v Speaker 2>I will probably dive deeper into that topic soon, because

702
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.679
<v Speaker 2>it's anytime I run into it something where I have

703
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:14.679
<v Speaker 2>a role hole in my knowledge, my first impulse is

704
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.119
<v Speaker 2>to find fill it with lots of information.

705
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:20.960
<v Speaker 5>So children, feral children, well, oh.

706
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I met the Werewolf trials versus the Witch Trials, but

707
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 2>also well, yeah, yeah, yeah, the feral children thing I'm

708
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:31.480
<v Speaker 2>very interested in, largely because it seems like much like

709
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:35.400
<v Speaker 2>we did some work on change links in fairy lore,

710
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:39.400
<v Speaker 2>and it turns out that there's a pretty strong case

711
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to be made that a lot of the changeling stories

712
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.840
<v Speaker 2>are about autistic children or people going through dementia, so

713
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:49.320
<v Speaker 2>it's like a sort of a supernatural way to deal

714
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.400
<v Speaker 2>with real world problems or to explain them. And I'm

715
00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 2>curious about the Werewolf Trials versus the Witch Trials because

716
00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:59.559
<v Speaker 2>in my head, I see those as a masculine versus

717
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.599
<v Speaker 2>feminine thing, and I'm not sure that's really true. So

718
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:03.719
<v Speaker 2>I need to find out, you know, I need to.

719
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:06.440
<v Speaker 3>Actually go back to the source material. But we have

720
00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:07.800
<v Speaker 3>one more serious.

721
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:10.679
<v Speaker 2>Question before we get to our fun closer, and that

722
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.559
<v Speaker 2>is this is kind of a broad survey question, but

723
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:18.199
<v Speaker 2>in your research, it seems like some of these stories

724
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.840
<v Speaker 2>have a really strong moral component, but some of them

725
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:24.920
<v Speaker 2>seem more like accidents of fate. So did you find

726
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:28.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of moral content in the mythology in the

727
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:32.400
<v Speaker 2>ancient world around these these cases or these these examples.

728
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:37.719
<v Speaker 1>There was definitely a good amount of connection there between

729
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.599
<v Speaker 1>the were wolf stories that I was studying and that

730
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:43.760
<v Speaker 1>sort of moral, ethical kind of edge I ended up

731
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.840
<v Speaker 1>for my dissertation specifically, I sort of separated the ancient

732
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 1>material into four different streams of sort of thematic inheritance

733
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:57.119
<v Speaker 1>that we like inevitably find and it made it a

734
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.559
<v Speaker 1>lot easier to connect to the ancient to the contemporary

735
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:04.800
<v Speaker 1>as well. So I talked about the developing humanist traditions

736
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:10.800
<v Speaker 1>race and species, and then morality, and also individualism and multiplicity,

737
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:14.039
<v Speaker 1>and then magic and technology, and so those were my

738
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:17.559
<v Speaker 1>four sort of areas of inquiry in the way that

739
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:21.800
<v Speaker 1>I sort of drove the research and could discuss the

740
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:26.239
<v Speaker 1>ancient texts specifically. And the moral one especially was absolutely

741
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:31.280
<v Speaker 1>such an embedded part of the ancient material that it

742
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:35.480
<v Speaker 1>was sort of drawn into those other examples. But it

743
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 1>really did come through with Ovid in particular that like

744
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.639
<v Speaker 1>Hayon story, is so inherently connected to this sort of

745
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:45.280
<v Speaker 1>moral obligation and the moral responsibility of a leader to

746
00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:48.320
<v Speaker 1>their people. That that was the contexts that we were

747
00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:51.719
<v Speaker 1>seeing like Hayon come up in again and again. And

748
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:54.639
<v Speaker 1>the best part about that in particular was that I

749
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:58.559
<v Speaker 1>got to connect it all the way down to Stephen

750
00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:01.800
<v Speaker 1>King and the where Wolf, the way wolves he has

751
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:06.119
<v Speaker 1>in his particular brand of fiction, which is so often

752
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:11.840
<v Speaker 1>a really moral journey. There's this this implication that by

753
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.960
<v Speaker 1>way of I don't want to quote Spider Man, but

754
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.920
<v Speaker 1>it's almost Spider Man. It's the with great power comes

755
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:22.159
<v Speaker 1>great responsibility, and it seems to be that's the that's

756
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:26.519
<v Speaker 1>the inheritance of the moral story from the werewolf stories

757
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:30.280
<v Speaker 1>of of ancient recent Rome. It's this real, this really

758
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.119
<v Speaker 1>insistence that with that sort of power and with that

759
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.639
<v Speaker 1>sort of like physical end and in a sort of

760
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.119
<v Speaker 1>metaphorical sense as a leader, that there needs to be

761
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:43.559
<v Speaker 1>more responsibility or it turns you into this like monstrous creature.

762
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:45.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah.

763
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.239
<v Speaker 2>The story of like Ian reminds me a little bit

764
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:51.039
<v Speaker 2>of King Saul and David, you know, where he sort

765
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 2>of he turns into a beast, but it describes him

766
00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:56.079
<v Speaker 2>as being more of a herbivore, so it's not quite

767
00:44:56.119 --> 00:45:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the same, but yeah, that's that's really interesting.

768
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:04.920
<v Speaker 1>There's an interesting comparison made in a couple of ancient texts,

769
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.360
<v Speaker 1>king like Chaon to the first king of Athens, and

770
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:10.039
<v Speaker 1>I do not know how to pronounce his name. I'm

771
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:13.639
<v Speaker 1>not going to try, I butcher it properly. But this,

772
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.440
<v Speaker 1>this this Athenian king was the one that helped his

773
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:18.360
<v Speaker 1>people and fed his people and stuff like that. And

774
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.400
<v Speaker 1>the comparison that's made is while while this Athenian king

775
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:26.440
<v Speaker 1>was taking that responsibility, like Chaon brought the body, the

776
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:29.800
<v Speaker 1>body of a child to the altar for worship and

777
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.960
<v Speaker 1>sacrificed the child sort of thing. So it's a really

778
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.760
<v Speaker 1>common theme, this idea that you're not protecting the people

779
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.599
<v Speaker 1>who are under your protection. It's really really deep ebedded well.

780
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:46.079
<v Speaker 2>In so many ancient stories. The rules of hospitality being

781
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.480
<v Speaker 2>violated just bring down the God's wrath upon those who

782
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:53.599
<v Speaker 2>do it. And it's it's really interesting because you know,

783
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.920
<v Speaker 2>if it was it was a really tough.

784
00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:57.559
<v Speaker 3>Time to survive.

785
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:01.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, there wasn't a safety that and it's like

786
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:06.000
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't give people hospitality or support them, yeah,

787
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:09.280
<v Speaker 2>moral condemnation from your peers is one thing, but it's like,

788
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:12.280
<v Speaker 2>it's so satisfying to know that the gods will smite

789
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:13.039
<v Speaker 2>you if you don't.

790
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:14.480
<v Speaker 3>That's way better, right.

791
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.920
<v Speaker 5>Well, Tanika, it's just been fantastic to chat with you,

792
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.960
<v Speaker 5>and yeah, I've really really enjoyed this conversation. But we've

793
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.639
<v Speaker 5>got one final question that we like to ask our

794
00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:28.440
<v Speaker 5>first time guests, and that is what's your favorite monster?

795
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.920
<v Speaker 1>My favorite monster? Oh, it would be so easy for

796
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:35.639
<v Speaker 1>me to say were wolves in this instance, very very

797
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:37.840
<v Speaker 1>easy for me to say it, but I have to

798
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.519
<v Speaker 1>be honest. A lot of the work that I've done

799
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:44.840
<v Speaker 1>around monstrosity and humanity and the connection between those two

800
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.920
<v Speaker 1>means that there's one person, one figure in particular that

801
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:52.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of is my absolute all time favorite creature. And

802
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:56.519
<v Speaker 1>her name is a Rick though she's actually a Roman witch,

803
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.840
<v Speaker 1>a fictional Roman witch that comes up in an epic

804
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:04.079
<v Speaker 1>called Fossalia written by Lucan and it's sort of this

805
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 1>fictional retelling of the historical era of civil war in

806
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Rome between Caesar and Pompey. And she is this absolutely

807
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:21.559
<v Speaker 1>horrifying creature, this witch figure who prowls battlefields and collects

808
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:24.239
<v Speaker 1>pieces of corpses to perform her magic so she can

809
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:29.320
<v Speaker 1>see the future. And she's so incredibly terrifying that when

810
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:32.880
<v Speaker 1>she speaks, the gods give her whatever she wants because

811
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:37.800
<v Speaker 1>they're so scared of her. Wow, And she's delightfully powerful

812
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:42.559
<v Speaker 1>and so horrifying that she's my absolute all time favorite.

813
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:43.599
<v Speaker 1>She's just so cool.

814
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.119
<v Speaker 3>That's neat. We've a new one for me, exactly, definitely.

815
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:50.639
<v Speaker 2>But I love that because you know, that's the sort

816
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:52.679
<v Speaker 2>of dichotomy and we've talked about so many times on

817
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:56.719
<v Speaker 2>the show. There's there's the Witch as a human who

818
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.360
<v Speaker 2>does magic, which is I guess more of the modern conception.

819
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.679
<v Speaker 2>There's the Witch who's clearly some kind of a creature

820
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:06.400
<v Speaker 2>slash monster, you know, the Baba yagas, you know, these

821
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:09.159
<v Speaker 2>sort of creatures, and that that.

822
00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:13.039
<v Speaker 3>Is so blurred throughout folklore and history.

823
00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:16.199
<v Speaker 2>And I just it's fascinating. I can't stop thinking about it.

824
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:18.360
<v Speaker 2>And you know that's why.

825
00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:19.840
<v Speaker 3>We do this show. So there you go.

826
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, thank you so much for taking the time to

827
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:24.960
<v Speaker 2>talk with us today.

828
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:26.719
<v Speaker 5>Thank you. It was really cool.

829
00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:29.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm here. This has been fantastic. I love a good

830
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.519
<v Speaker 1>chance to ramble about my area of expertise, and it's

831
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.760
<v Speaker 1>so exciting that I get to it gets to be

832
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:34.920
<v Speaker 1>my area of experctise.

833
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:35.679
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it is.

834
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Anybody absolutely if you managed to get a degree in

835
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.159
<v Speaker 2>doing doing so with monsters is the basis, you're definitely

836
00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:48.440
<v Speaker 2>winning in my mind. So if if people want to

837
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:51.079
<v Speaker 2>read your work, what's the best way to find it?

838
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh so, a good old Google search is usually the

839
00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:01.119
<v Speaker 1>best way. I have a couple of publications coming out,

840
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:03.599
<v Speaker 1>but good I'm not too good at timelines in terms

841
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:07.400
<v Speaker 1>of stuff like that. But my work, in particular my

842
00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:11.000
<v Speaker 1>thesis can be found on just on the web. The

843
00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:17.119
<v Speaker 1>University of Newcastle, Australia has a good online repository that

844
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:20.679
<v Speaker 1>has my digital copy of my thesis there too, for

845
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:26.880
<v Speaker 1>anybody willing to breathe the madness.

846
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<v Speaker 5>And will be people.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll see if I can get a link straight

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<v Speaker 2>to it or real close to it, and I'll put

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<v Speaker 2>a link to your article at the conversation as well.

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00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Those were great monster You've been listening to Monster Doc,

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00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>the science show about monsters.

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00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 2>You just heard an interview with doctor Tanika Kusman discussing

854
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:49.199
<v Speaker 2>her research into the history of ancient werewolves. You can

855
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:51.280
<v Speaker 2>find links to her research and to the books and

856
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:53.559
<v Speaker 2>movies that we mentioned by checking the show notes that

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00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:57.000
<v Speaker 2>accompany this episode. And remember you can always search up

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00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:59.840
<v Speaker 2>past episodes easily over at MonsterTalk dot org, where there's

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00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 2>a full archive of all our content. We hope you've

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00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.039
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk. Each episode we strive

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00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:09.760
<v Speaker 2>to bring you the very best in monster related content,

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00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism into the conversation.

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00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:16.880
<v Speaker 2>If you enjoy Monster Talk, we now have a variety

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00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.159
<v Speaker 2>of ways to support the show, all with convenient links

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00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:25.119
<v Speaker 2>at MonsterTalk dot org forwarge slash support. That's monster talk

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00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:29.119
<v Speaker 2>dot org forwarge Slash support. We have links there to

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00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:32.800
<v Speaker 2>our Patreon page as well as a donation button. Another

868
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:34.760
<v Speaker 2>great way to support the show is to buy books

869
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.519
<v Speaker 2>from our Amazon Monster Talk wish List, which directly helps

870
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:41.679
<v Speaker 2>us with our research. We love used books very much,

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00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:43.679
<v Speaker 2>so don't feel compelled to buy new ones, and we

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00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:46.119
<v Speaker 2>love kindles so we can share our digital libraries with

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00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:49.679
<v Speaker 2>each other. And finally, without spending any money at all,

874
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<v Speaker 2>you can support us by leaving a positive review at

875
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 2>iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Positive reviews help

876
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<v Speaker 2>keep us visible in iTunes, which is a great way

877
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.599
<v Speaker 2>to help. Let's find you listeners, and please share our

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00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:08.679
<v Speaker 2>show on your favorite social media platforms. Monster Talks theme

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00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:11.519
<v Speaker 2>music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys and you can trust

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00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:13.719
<v Speaker 2>us to be your companion when you have to walk

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00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.519
<v Speaker 2>past the cemetery to get to your lover's house. We

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00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.719
<v Speaker 2>may not shut up the whole time, but we definitely

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00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:20.239
<v Speaker 2>will not turn into wolves.

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<v Speaker 1>This has been a Monster House presentation