Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's that mark that you get on your
Speaker 1: chin when you're wearing lipstick and then you take a
Speaker 1: bite of a giant sandwich. Ali Ward back with a
Speaker 1: warm blooded and informative hour of chuckles that I just
Speaker 1: can't wait to get to. So just thank you up
Speaker 1: top to everyone on Patreon who submitted questions for this
Speaker 1: episode and who supports the show, and to everyone keeping
Speaker 1: ologies a top science podcast with all of your ratings
Speaker 1: in your word of mouth and your reviews which I
Speaker 1: read on purpose everyone so that I can pick one
Speaker 1: such as this from Cathport, whose review on Apple was
Speaker 1: submitted in the form of this haiku. Interesting folks, bright
Speaker 1: lights in their ologies. Dad Ward, my friend too, Cathport.
Speaker 1: I loved it. Thank you. Also thanks to that one
Speaker 1: car guy named Frank and anonymous seven eighteen for leaving
Speaker 1: your first ever podcast reviews, and Lizzie's thanks for dreaming
Speaker 1: about me next to a campfire. It sounded fascinating. Okay, mammalogy.
Speaker 1: So mammology comes from the Latin for titties, gentle folks,
Speaker 1: and we're going to get so into that I can't
Speaker 1: even tell you, but technically this is an allergy. It's
Speaker 1: not an ology, and I only realize that after spelling
Speaker 1: mammalogy wrong approximately one billion times in a row. So
Speaker 1: this ologist is a big deal. A ted talker multiple times,
Speaker 1: anat GEO explorer, a longtime science writer and an advocate
Speaker 1: and a researcher, a professor, a tweeter, an icon, an
Speaker 1: idol of mine. And I sent my first breathless, very
Speaker 1: sycophantic pleading message to her in January of twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: two and a half years ago, and she was not
Speaker 1: another continent busy with research. And I had been hoping
Speaker 1: for a time that I'd be anywhere near Saint Louis
Speaker 1: and she would have an hour to spare. But time
Speaker 1: and remote recording finally brought us together. She hails from
Speaker 1: Tennessee and got her bachelor's degree in animal science at
Speaker 1: Tennessee Technological University, got a master's from a University of
Speaker 1: Memphis and a PhD from University of Missouri Saint Louis.
Speaker 1: She did postdocs at Oklahoma State and at Cornell University.
Speaker 1: She's currently an assistant professor of Biology and Urban Ecology
Speaker 1: and Mammology at Southern Illinois University in Edwardsville, and is
Speaker 1: also an organizer of this week's Black Mammalogist Week, which
Speaker 1: runs September thirteenth through nineteenth. So you were definitely gonna
Speaker 1: want to follow Black Mammologists b LK Mammologists on Twitter
Speaker 1: and get ready. They got technique Tuesday, they got we
Speaker 1: out here Wednesday, Threatened mammals Thursday for Friday, see Mammals
Speaker 1: Saturday this week. So there's more info and links up
Speaker 1: at Blackmammalogists dot com. There's a link to that in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Get excited so we talk about that.
Speaker 1: We also talk about this biologist's work on animals of
Speaker 1: all kinds, especially the furry milky ones, and we chat
Speaker 1: about fieldwork, plata pi furriness and parenting styles and nipples
Speaker 1: of every stripe. And I was so excited to talk
Speaker 1: to her that I honestly was kind of speechless and
Speaker 1: just starstruck, and I just wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: the way and listen because she's just wonderful and insightful
Speaker 1: and informative. So please get ready to meet one of
Speaker 1: the world's coolest professors and mammalogists, doctor Danielle and Lee.
Speaker 2: I'm ready to stick.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Okay, of course I want to talk to
Speaker 1: you about all these warm blooded, furry little creatures. The
Speaker 1: first thing I'll have you do, if it's okay, if
Speaker 1: you could just say your first and last name, so
Speaker 1: I make sure I pronounce it right and pronounced thank you.
Speaker 2: So my name is Danielle ian Lee, and my pronouns
Speaker 2: that she and her. But I also just don't care, okay,
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why. So in the process of
Speaker 2: doing my research in Tanzania and learning Swahili, there are
Speaker 2: no ginger pronouns in Swahili. Really, they don't exist. They
Speaker 2: just don't exist. Like because I kept asking and I
Speaker 2: was I realized that because people who speak English would
Speaker 2: constantly get their pronouns mixed up. They would say he
Speaker 2: and she interchangeably, and I thought it was, oh, it's
Speaker 2: because they don't know English very well. No, it's because
Speaker 2: those words are the equivalent. He and she are equivalent
Speaker 2: and Swahili because he and she don't exist. So that's
Speaker 2: what it's just like. So this is all a construct matter.
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful, that's so good to know. And this
Speaker 1: is the first time I've asked that up top because
Speaker 1: I had a listener say, hey, could you just start
Speaker 1: asking because that kind of normalizes it and it yes, but.
Speaker 2: I also just realized it's a very English thing. It's
Speaker 2: a very well, it's a language. It's not just English,
Speaker 2: but I suppose it also matters in Latin languages as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but like that's very language specific. This doesn't mean anything
Speaker 2: in parts of the world where there's no gendered pronouns
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 1: Oh that makes my day. Bye bye, thank you. That
Speaker 1: Queriana on Twitter, whose partner goes by they them Yanna
Speaker 1: says that CIS folks can help normalize using and asking
Speaker 1: pronouns and that the acknowledgment really means something. And I
Speaker 1: would never have learned that about Swahili. So he says,
Speaker 1: can you tell me a little bit about your research
Speaker 1: that you that you did in Tanzania.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I study giant pouched rats, but those who get
Speaker 2: the reference Princess Bright Huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I study r o U s tes rodents of unusual size.
Speaker 2: I don't think they exist. They are large rotents that
Speaker 2: look like rats. They're not rats proper. They look like rotents.
Speaker 2: They are rotents. They rat like rotents. And I'm holding
Speaker 2: my hands up across my body, but anywhere from nose
Speaker 2: to tip of tail. They can go anywhere from two
Speaker 2: and a half one and a half to two and
Speaker 2: a half to three feet long.
Speaker 1: What was it like the first time that you saw one?
Speaker 2: The first time I finally got the Sea one, I
Speaker 2: was just like, I can't believe this thing. It's big.
Speaker 2: It's the size of a cat, like a nice sized
Speaker 2: house cat. Like they're cat guys. They're very strong, they're
Speaker 2: very fast, they are smart. They are the rats. They
Speaker 2: are the rats of them.
Speaker 1: We can no longer than him. That's what happens.
Speaker 2: We know too much. They are they they know and
Speaker 2: I mean that. So the first ones we got, we
Speaker 2: got a shippment from Ghana and we house them in
Speaker 2: rabbit cages. That's what we house them in.
Speaker 1: Hutches.
Speaker 2: Big. Yeah, they're that big. We house them in rabbit cages.
Speaker 2: They have a lot of dexterity in their hand, like
Speaker 2: they can grab things very easily. And when we get them,
Speaker 2: we have to process them because they're actually you can't
Speaker 2: they're not actually allowed in the United States. There's a
Speaker 2: moratorium on shipping African rotents, and this particular road in
Speaker 2: particular because in two thousand and three there was a
Speaker 2: monkey pox outbreak in this rot and this species is
Speaker 2: responsible for it. So they're on the no fly list.
Speaker 2: So to get them, you got to have all special
Speaker 2: permissions in your track past CDC, and we have to
Speaker 2: do all these tests and submit them, and you have
Speaker 2: to submit salava swabs to make sure that they don't
Speaker 2: have monkey pos oof.
Speaker 1: Okay, I know you're like, what's monkey pox? And it's
Speaker 1: a virus. It was first discovered in captive monkeys in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight, and in two thousand and three there
Speaker 1: was a US outbreak that, according to the CDC, involved
Speaker 1: forty seven confirmed and probable cases of monkey pox. They
Speaker 1: were reported from six states. Sorry, the Midwest, it was
Speaker 1: all you. And all those cases stemmed from prairie dogs
Speaker 1: which were infected by Gambian pouched rats. Then an exotic
Speaker 1: wildlife importer from Texas brought in here. Again like needing
Speaker 1: a visual. So these pouched rats, they weighed like four pounds,
Speaker 1: They averaged two to three feet long, some not including
Speaker 1: their tails, and they have kind of big cute pink ears.
Speaker 1: So imagine like a chihuahua with a long tail and
Speaker 1: a mickey mouse hat, or like a possum. But the
Speaker 1: rats just imagine huge rats.
Speaker 2: And I remember when it happened. So I'm assisting the
Speaker 2: vet who's swabbing the back of their mouth their cheek pouches.
Speaker 2: That's what they called pouch rats. They have cheek pouches
Speaker 2: like hamsters. Oh and one of the rats, I swear
Speaker 2: it looked him dead in the eye and he reached
Speaker 2: with both hands and he glabbed the swab and yanked
Speaker 2: it out his mouth. And everyone who was there was
Speaker 2: me and it was a graduate student in the VET,
Speaker 2: and we all looked at each other and said, did
Speaker 2: anyone else just let this down? That just happened. It
Speaker 2: looked him in his eye and yanked and looked at it,
Speaker 2: yanked it out his mouth. I will forever remember that
Speaker 2: and if and in my memory, that was the same
Speaker 2: rat who escaped all he got out of the cage
Speaker 2: all the time. He always escaped. Oh. They were really
Speaker 2: good at removing their name cards so that they were
Speaker 2: because at first, I I apologize now, but I thought
Speaker 2: it was the animal care cleaning the cages. Then they
Speaker 2: forgot to put their name tags back. Oh no, and
Speaker 2: I was like, we can't have this. We got to
Speaker 2: keep the name cards on. And if we come to
Speaker 2: find out it wasn't It wasn't the staff at all.
Speaker 2: It was the rats. They were removing their own cards,
Speaker 2: they were removing their own water bottles. We had to
Speaker 2: change a lot of our protocols and how we the
Speaker 2: day to day husbandry of how you care for them.
Speaker 2: They're debt. They're that different from regular rat. We have
Speaker 2: to change the materials we use. We can't use glass
Speaker 2: bottles because they're so good at flipping them out. They
Speaker 2: were breaking these super industrial expensive pirates bottles.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Every night, they were just breaking them because they would
Speaker 2: slit them out and then they would use that little
Speaker 2: hole to either reach their hand out and undo the cage,
Speaker 2: or for the smaller ones, they would move their food
Speaker 2: hutch because it slide in, and then they would use
Speaker 2: that to escape out.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I asked what happens when they escape, and
Speaker 1: she said, it's not like Monkey Pock's panic. Sirens go
Speaker 1: off and there's mayhem. There are double doors for safety,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly like a come on guys moment.
Speaker 2: So at my last institution where we house them, which
Speaker 2: was Cornell University, part of what we did we had
Speaker 2: one that escape, so often, like we just got used
Speaker 2: to it. We would just put hutches around the room
Speaker 2: because what it is is they just go out on
Speaker 2: these little johnts. They literally would go on jump. So
Speaker 2: we would put just extra little hutches, which is just
Speaker 2: it's a mailbox top. So imagine a mailbox thing with
Speaker 2: out a door. That's their little housing hutch. We would
Speaker 2: just put a couple of these in the room in
Speaker 2: the corner, and then when the staff will come in
Speaker 2: to do the daily checks, they just you just take
Speaker 2: a peek in them. And the good news is, because
Speaker 2: there's a handle on top, you can just if you're
Speaker 2: very careful, just pick the hounch on up, open their
Speaker 2: homecage and put it right back in. But yes, once
Speaker 2: we get used to it, they get used to us,
Speaker 2: they'll go into a hutch. Otherwise you got to get
Speaker 2: out there and you got to catch them.
Speaker 1: Oh how do you catch them.
Speaker 2: When they're loose like that? I cornered them and grabbed
Speaker 2: their tail. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You did an awesome Ted talk talking
Speaker 1: about these animals and how little was known about the
Speaker 1: biology and so are you really having to kind of
Speaker 1: figure out basically, what's the life cycle. What's a reproductive cycle?
Speaker 1: Are you spending a lot of time in the field
Speaker 1: with them?
Speaker 2: I am, so I do the field work. So we
Speaker 2: When this project first started, I was brought on board
Speaker 2: and I was the start of doing all that. But
Speaker 2: now the project has expanded, so I'm now and I
Speaker 2: have a faculty position, so there's been additional posttos brought
Speaker 2: on board. So this has been an expanding team effort,
Speaker 2: so I wanted to make that clear. So a lot
Speaker 2: of the stuff I started just noting the questions and
Speaker 2: the patterns of behavior. We've been able to pick this
Speaker 2: work up by others and spread it out across multiple
Speaker 2: teams now, so I'm excited about that. But yes, this
Speaker 2: is exactly how it started. We didn't know anything and
Speaker 2: we started from scratch. The first animals we got were
Speaker 2: the ones from Ghana, which we only got four, which
Speaker 2: wasn't enough to do any research. That just helped me
Speaker 2: get used to the to the animals and handling them
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: So in the genus Chrysotomis, I think you've got your
Speaker 1: Gambian pouch strat and as it turns out, three other
Speaker 1: species with different variations, which doctor Lee encountered once she
Speaker 1: started working with the ones in Tanzania, Boy, how they
Speaker 1: did she but.
Speaker 2: That's a different species. Oh and from my observations, haven't
Speaker 2: handled both. They're different. They're different, they look different, they
Speaker 2: have slightly different behaviors out the ones from Ghana. Because
Speaker 2: I've never seen any interact with anything that big and fast.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, these are them, these guys are
Speaker 2: there's some tough customers. You don't want to come along
Speaker 2: that night. And when I got to Tanzania, I realized
Speaker 2: the ones from Ghana were baby dolls.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: They were outright, just just snugly compared.
Speaker 1: Well, they're so smart and they're so dexterous. You are
Speaker 1: able to research how they can be used to help
Speaker 1: with finding landmines. Right.
Speaker 2: So that's actually a nonprofit does this. So they do
Speaker 2: the training and they've worked with several academic teams from
Speaker 2: a little bit of all over.
Speaker 1: But they do.
Speaker 2: What they do is really basic operate conditioning, positive reinforcements,
Speaker 2: and they trained them. Now, they don't work with wild animals,
Speaker 2: so some of the history behind that is, you know,
Speaker 2: in the early days trying to make it figured out.
Speaker 2: They're working with wild ones because these are nuisance rodents.
Speaker 2: So that's the thing I learned in doing it, because
Speaker 2: I work in the wild with wild animals. I learned
Speaker 2: that all the animals that have gone into the program,
Speaker 2: they were captured originally tried to train, but then now
Speaker 2: they just go into breeding. They're all nuisance animals that
Speaker 2: are caught within the town because they were getting into
Speaker 2: somebody's house or food stores or just vexing them in
Speaker 2: some sort of way. Mm hmm. They're all nuisance animals. Wow.
Speaker 2: So I'm hosted by the local university, Sokoenia University of
Speaker 2: Agriculture that's in Tanzania, and my host department is the
Speaker 2: Pest Management Center. And so just as the name would say,
Speaker 2: they are pets.
Speaker 1: It'd be like if we had a raccoon getting in
Speaker 1: the garbage and then we're like, you know what, as
Speaker 1: long as we gotcha, do you want to help us
Speaker 1: find some land mines.
Speaker 2: That's exactly how it works, landmink and help us diagnose
Speaker 2: tuberculosis because that's also what they can do.
Speaker 1: Really, and that's are they using like old faction for that?
Speaker 2: All old faction, This is all old faction.
Speaker 1: That just means smell. But I was trying to sound
Speaker 1: more professional because underneath I was very giddy to be
Speaker 1: having this conversation, if you must know.
Speaker 2: Anyway, her postdoc, so the postoc that's at Cornell now,
Speaker 2: doctor Angela Freeman. She's been doing some amazing again basic
Speaker 2: biology and descriptive studies, looking at really focusing on their
Speaker 2: old faction, and so she's really getting down to some
Speaker 2: of the questions of the answers of how is it
Speaker 2: they're so good at this. She's really doing a lot
Speaker 2: of that. So she's looked at old faction and then
Speaker 2: because old faction, we know we can use it for
Speaker 2: training for work. But then here's where the biology comes from.
Speaker 2: And the ethologist in me is, what are they using
Speaker 2: old faction from in the while? And it's likely for reproduction,
Speaker 2: it's likely for social interactions, and so she's been beginning
Speaker 2: to look at old faction from the reproductive point of view,
Speaker 2: and the stuff that's come out so far it's just
Speaker 2: what you would expect. It's like, oh, they're good at smelling,
Speaker 2: so that they can identify who's receptive and who's not
Speaker 2: receptive for mating mm hm.
Speaker 1: So it's just like an extrasensory pheromone snooter looking around.
Speaker 2: Looking around, so they use it for that. Very likely
Speaker 2: they use it for finding food. And they already have
Speaker 2: the evolutionary of mechanics for sniffing things out really well.
Speaker 2: It makes sense that they've been really good at sniffing
Speaker 2: out these other molecules related to either lung disease or TNT.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And that's essentially what's That's what applied science is is
Speaker 2: using what we know about basic science, and you hone
Speaker 2: in on it for applied science.
Speaker 1: So this is a big deal because between fifteen to
Speaker 1: twenty thousand people each year are killed or injured by
Speaker 1: land mines, and our little rat friends are really great
Speaker 1: at sniffing out the TNT plus are too light to
Speaker 1: detonate the landmine, and they don't bond with their trainers
Speaker 1: like dogs do, so they can move around to different
Speaker 1: countries without getting emotionally but hurt. Now, Doctor Lee notes
Speaker 1: that we know a lot about dogs, but not enough
Speaker 1: about these rodents of practically dog size.
Speaker 2: The reason why the like in my ted talk I
Speaker 2: talked about that they put the applied science the organization
Speaker 2: that trained them. They put the applied science in front
Speaker 2: of the basic science and they had a lot of
Speaker 2: trial and error and what and the reason why I
Speaker 2: talk about that is because when we don't take our
Speaker 2: time and invest in basic science, you'll lose a lot
Speaker 2: of time. And that's what happened. It took them years
Speaker 2: and years and years to kind of perfect their protocols.
Speaker 2: And they're still working on perfecting your breeding protocols simply
Speaker 2: because didn't understand what's their breeding ecology, what's their mating system?
Speaker 2: So what I do? I studied them in the wild,
Speaker 2: though I take trips now at this point when I'm
Speaker 2: able to leave the country about once the year. The
Speaker 2: other year really trying to find out where they live
Speaker 2: and how they live, so finding in marketness, who lives there,
Speaker 2: who's visiting there, what's tried to estimate their home ranges,
Speaker 2: or who overlaps with whom. And this story is still
Speaker 2: as much as I find out. I'm still figuring things out.
Speaker 1: So one thing she's discovered in her research is that
Speaker 1: depending on the age and the sex of these super
Speaker 1: sniffer rodents, they use their space differently. Also, they like
Speaker 1: to get down aug.
Speaker 2: Many mammals, they're probably not monogamous, and that there's lots
Speaker 2: of visitation and checking up on one another. So old
Speaker 2: faction is very important. But then one of the things
Speaker 2: that's always been an issue since I've began visiting there
Speaker 2: since twenty twelve is the fact that if I were
Speaker 2: looking at my data as far as age ages of
Speaker 2: individuals are trapped, you never trap young ones. You never
Speaker 2: trap babies. They don't come above ground. Oh, they don't
Speaker 2: come above ground. And then when I'm talking to my host,
Speaker 2: so that includes my host at the university, includes my
Speaker 2: technical host. And so the person who I'm amazingly indentded
Speaker 2: to is Shabane Lutea. So he's a he's a tech
Speaker 2: at Pest Management Center, and he's truly the authority on
Speaker 2: pouch rats. I just get to work with him. I'm
Speaker 2: very very lucky and I get to codify and I
Speaker 2: get to work with him. But he's taught me everything.
Speaker 2: I know. He's the one who's caught every single animal
Speaker 2: that has gone into that training program. Like he really
Speaker 2: is that person. He was the one who as I'm
Speaker 2: out with him catching animals for my research, that's when
Speaker 2: I kind of started putting the story together. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: all these animals came from basically the equivalent of his backyard,
Speaker 2: his backyard and throughout his neighborhood. So like I literally
Speaker 2: can I spend I spend a lot of my time
Speaker 2: on one street. One street is notorious contributed more to
Speaker 2: saving lives and repatriating land from one whole street.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, which is a we would call it
Speaker 1: a neighborhood.
Speaker 2: So a neighborhood and moragirl, this working class neighborhood in
Speaker 2: Tanzania has done more for that. Uh. But in the
Speaker 2: in the process of doing that, in the process of
Speaker 2: spending time with these families, in the process of them
Speaker 2: letting me not just come in their house but trump
Speaker 2: all through through their property, that really started awakening me
Speaker 2: to thinking about so what does this research mean to them?
Speaker 2: Like this is an animal that bothers them.
Speaker 1: But doctor Lee says in their eyes.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's nice and it's great that it saves lives.
Speaker 2: But they're literally like, we've been catching rats for years
Speaker 2: and giving them away or getting rid of them because
Speaker 2: they're bothering us. When is this research going to mean
Speaker 2: something to us? And that really stopped me in my
Speaker 2: tracks and I started thinking about it. I was like,
Speaker 2: you're right, you know, I need. This research has to
Speaker 2: matter now, and so trying to understand their habits and
Speaker 2: what makes them good at exploiting these things is now.
Speaker 2: Is now what I'm focused on, specifically, trying to understand
Speaker 2: their distribution and their movement patterns such that we can
Speaker 2: come up with solutions to help people to either divert
Speaker 2: these animals from coming into the houses or coming into
Speaker 2: their property. But it's interesting, despite all of that, folks
Speaker 2: don't they're not overwhelmingly antagonistic. Their feelings aren't overwhelmingly antagonistic.
Speaker 2: Like they'll say they bother me, they vexed me, could
Speaker 2: you do something about it please, But like it doesn't
Speaker 2: come off as you know, I'm ready. It's not like
Speaker 2: the grounds keeper up and they have every right for.
Speaker 1: It to be by full by enemy is an animal
Speaker 1: in order to conquer him, I have to think.
Speaker 2: This is what I'm learning. So this I'm going to
Speaker 2: be very clear, this is what I'm learning as as
Speaker 2: an American, as a Western scientist doing science in a
Speaker 2: place where people have a historical and indigenous relationship to
Speaker 2: an animal, Like I really believe that's a very Western
Speaker 2: way of thinking of it. Like this idea that you
Speaker 2: have to that human wildlife conflict have to all be
Speaker 2: contentious or people have to feel antagonistic against it just
Speaker 2: because there's a conflict. I really, I'm really beginning to
Speaker 2: think that is a construct that we've created because we
Speaker 2: compartmentalize ourselves outside of nature so much. Yeah and so yeah,
Speaker 2: it vexes them, but they also you know, it's not
Speaker 2: a deal breaking. In other words, people haven't picked up
Speaker 2: and moved, you know, you know, and they need So
Speaker 2: sometimes it comes down to what better resources can we
Speaker 2: provide for people? So some of it is, you know,
Speaker 2: if we have better resources an infrastructure for how we
Speaker 2: built our houses or the foundations, what materials are available
Speaker 2: to people for laying the foundation of their home, it
Speaker 2: could some of these some of these issues could be
Speaker 2: addressed for that it won't fix all of them. Or
Speaker 2: it could come down to if we had infrastructure grants
Speaker 2: so that more people had indoor plumbing, because they usually
Speaker 2: I found them accessing near the we would call it
Speaker 2: an outhouse, so they're they're toilet. Well, if folks have
Speaker 2: indoor plumbing, this isn't an issue anymore. I've come to
Speaker 2: realize there's so many different ways to think about this
Speaker 2: and some of it just comes down to if we're
Speaker 2: just sharing, you know, intellectual capital resources with one another
Speaker 2: in different parts of the world.
Speaker 1: And what about you? Growing up? Were you someone that
Speaker 1: was out in nature a lot. Were you looking at
Speaker 1: particularly mammals or lizards, or bugs or flowers. When did
Speaker 1: you kind of start to really appreciate wild life.
Speaker 2: I always liked I was an outside kid, so I
Speaker 2: grew up outside. My mom was worked in parks and
Speaker 2: w reck so I got to go. I went to
Speaker 2: work with her every day. So like childcare was a
Speaker 2: minimal thing. I got to hang out in tow So
Speaker 2: I spent my days outside on the park, outside the park,
Speaker 2: in the front yard, backyard. This is I'm also Jenet,
Speaker 2: So you know, kids were expected to go outside and
Speaker 2: just play, just go figure it out. Yeah, and so
Speaker 2: I liked I've always liked animals. I was that kid
Speaker 2: bringing stuff home. I really was. I've been a little
Speaker 2: bit more attentive to the to the cute furries. I
Speaker 2: tried to have a bird once that didn't go so well.
Speaker 2: I liked. I liked the furries. I didn't see my
Speaker 2: first lizard until I was an adult almost. No, I
Speaker 2: didn't see like reptilia. Wildlife was rare for me, like
Speaker 2: I think I saw a term once or twice, but
Speaker 2: turtles were always far away, so like they weren't part
Speaker 2: of my my urban wildlife scape. So for me, it
Speaker 2: was all it was mammals, it was birds, and then
Speaker 2: it was insects. And I don't like insects. I've never
Speaker 2: been planning, that's my no go. But the cute furries
Speaker 2: the q first, absolutely, And I was always asking questions
Speaker 2: like I've never not been asking questions about why and
Speaker 2: how and what explain that to me? And I was
Speaker 2: I was just consumed nature programs, like if it was
Speaker 2: an animal show on, it was like I was watching it,
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna watch all the animal shows everything. And
Speaker 2: so that's really what did it for me.
Speaker 1: At what point did you know that you were going
Speaker 1: to become a scientist? What was that path?
Speaker 2: Like, I didn't know I was going to become a
Speaker 2: scientist until I was in the middle of doing a master's.
Speaker 2: Really I didn't know. I did not understand and how
Speaker 2: that path back to the whole always asking questions I
Speaker 2: start of the project, which wasn't even my thesis. I
Speaker 2: wasn't even trying to get a thesis. I was just
Speaker 2: taking classes because I wanted to be I thought I
Speaker 2: wanted to be a veterinarian and I needed to improve
Speaker 2: my GPA because I had applied in undergrad and didn't
Speaker 2: get in. So I was writing papers and kind of
Speaker 2: diving deeper into what we call the theory behind biology
Speaker 2: as opposed to just the facts and the history of discovery.
Speaker 2: And my professor told me, he's like, you ask a
Speaker 2: lot of good questions. I'm like, because I'm always asking questions,
Speaker 2: but I was asking questions from the point of view
Speaker 2: I just wanted someone to tell me the answer because
Speaker 2: I was certain those answers existed. I just didn't know
Speaker 2: where they were or what the answers were. And it
Speaker 2: was in the process of taking these classes I realized, oh,
Speaker 2: a lot of these questions haven't been asked. It's a
Speaker 2: great question. And so he started me on a project
Speaker 2: based on one of the papers I wrote in class.
Speaker 2: It was an animal animal communication and cognition. That was
Speaker 2: that was my aha. That was the beginning of kind
Speaker 2: of leading me on this page. And he was like,
Speaker 2: this paper can be a project, and he outlined how
Speaker 2: he could be a project. So I started working with
Speaker 2: him just on a research project, still not a thesis.
Speaker 2: I think I had imagine it with birds because it
Speaker 2: was all just I was just writing hypothetical papers like
Speaker 2: imagine this and imagine that. And he worked with fil
Speaker 2: mice vole and so he's like, we can do this
Speaker 2: project with the animals. I work trying to ask if
Speaker 2: there's different levels of communication, if there's synonymous signaling. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, you know, I was following alone.
Speaker 2: And so I started the project and I started getting
Speaker 2: into it. And it was in the middle of that
Speaker 2: project that I was like, oh, this is what the
Speaker 2: scientific method is for.
Speaker 1: Oh how wonderful is that? Okay, get ready for some
Speaker 1: more inspirational goosebumps.
Speaker 2: I really got into it and it hit me. I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't need anyone to answer my questions
Speaker 2: for me anymore. I can answer my own questions. That
Speaker 2: was when I decided to be a scientist. And I
Speaker 2: literally I had an application in pre vet school and
Speaker 2: I withdrew it. Oh my gosh, and I was just
Speaker 2: and I got a call from them because I had
Speaker 2: interview with them. It was my top choice school, so
Speaker 2: they knew me because I interviewed twice, and they were like,
Speaker 2: just just get your scores in. You're you're good, You're good.
Speaker 2: We've seen your progress this time. We think it's it.
Speaker 2: They were like, without saying you're guaranteed, but they were like,
Speaker 2: we promise you it looks really good for you this time.
Speaker 2: And I was like no. They were like, but you're
Speaker 2: really I say, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna take my
Speaker 2: chances in a fly for PhD. They're like what I
Speaker 2: was like, I want to be I want to research
Speaker 2: animal behavior. I realized this is what I've always wanted
Speaker 2: to do. I just didn't know this was a job
Speaker 2: that I could do. I didn't know science was like
Speaker 2: I knew science, but I only thought knew in my
Speaker 2: own life from a very applied, practical point of view,
Speaker 2: like to help people to fix things, to solve a problem.
Speaker 2: I didn't understand and know that basic research wasn't even
Speaker 2: was even a Vie pathway. And I didn't really like,
Speaker 2: this is how weird it was. I was in college,
Speaker 2: loved college. Did not put together one in one that
Speaker 2: my college professors were researchers.
Speaker 1: Right, No, I completely understand, like they're you know when
Speaker 1: you go to elementary school. In high school, they're there
Speaker 1: to teach you. So when you go to college, they're
Speaker 1: just there to teach you harder stuff. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't click that they're also publishing papers and continuing
Speaker 1: their ongoing staff right.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and that's that's why I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: And I was like, wait, you get paid to watch
Speaker 2: animals all day. I want I want in on that.
Speaker 2: I want in on that. And it was in the
Speaker 2: middle of it was and that's when I went did
Speaker 2: the paperwork. I was like, I want to get a thesis.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the thesis now, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: apply for PhD. And I was like, I want to
Speaker 2: be a college professor, because then I understood that a
Speaker 2: professor was someone who not only taught college classes. Is
Speaker 2: the person who teaches college classes and trains students in
Speaker 2: science mm hm, And so I was like, that's what
Speaker 2: I want to do. So yeah, I didn't know. I
Speaker 2: didn't understand that I could be No one wanted to
Speaker 2: be a scientist until I was in my master's.
Speaker 1: I think that's amazing. Were there any any movies about
Speaker 1: scientists or about mammals or rodents at all? That really
Speaker 1: get it right or wrong. I know you mentioned the
Speaker 1: Princess Bride, which is burned in all of our minds,
Speaker 1: or any myths about scientists that you'd want to debunk.
Speaker 2: Oh, most of the movies don't get it right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: most of them don't get it right. So I feel
Speaker 2: like I wouldn't even want to use my time.
Speaker 1: Just know they don't get it right.
Speaker 2: Most of them don't get it right.
Speaker 1: Okay, what about mammals. We're mammals, but so are pouched
Speaker 1: rats and wolves and test mighty deals. Is there more
Speaker 1: variation among mammals than say reptiles.
Speaker 2: And so now if we're going to look at the
Speaker 2: whole thing reptiles, big big unbrother, then of course they
Speaker 2: got the spread. They win. They wind up we're more
Speaker 2: weirder than you.
Speaker 1: That's a very good point.
Speaker 2: If we do it that way. But mammals are interesting.
Speaker 2: So we have a little bit of everything. So we
Speaker 2: have the live birthers versus the not live birthers. And
Speaker 2: among the live births we have the fully developed versus
Speaker 2: the barely developed. Among those that do the fully developed,
Speaker 2: stay with Mama a long time, or I need you
Speaker 2: out the door as soon as possible. So this what
Speaker 2: I like to call diversity and investment strategy of the species,
Speaker 2: Like how much do you invest in it offspring to
Speaker 2: make sure they're you know, big and strong before they're
Speaker 2: out there on their own in it big widening world.
Speaker 2: It literally can range from ye years to moments. Yeah,
Speaker 2: years to moments.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? And what influences that?
Speaker 2: So it's a lot of things to influence that. Some
Speaker 2: of it is evolutionarily, like you know, just part of
Speaker 2: it is you got to work with what you got.
Speaker 2: So you know, if you're a certain type of animal,
Speaker 2: you're kind of locked into that strategy. So as humans,
Speaker 2: we're locked into, you know, these long gestational periods of
Speaker 2: nine to ten months, we're locked into these long post
Speaker 2: birth periods of nourishment of at least two to three years.
Speaker 2: And even then just because they don't need to suckle
Speaker 2: milk anymore, they're not really out there. They you just
Speaker 2: can't set them free at seven, Yeah, just can't set
Speaker 2: them free. They won't make it. So we have this
Speaker 2: so part of it is but as humans, like the
Speaker 2: fact that you're born a human, you're locked into that strategy.
Speaker 2: You just can't decide I want to be like a
Speaker 2: you know, I want to be a mama kangaroo, and
Speaker 2: I want to drop this egg in five days, and
Speaker 2: that's it. Like, it's nothing you can do about the Evolutionarily,
Speaker 2: you're locked into whatever you are because of your species.
Speaker 2: But part of it is evolution, but it's also ecology
Speaker 2: in other words, so where you are, the time you are,
Speaker 2: how much space you have to do your business that
Speaker 2: make a living. All these inputs determine how you make
Speaker 2: a living and how will you live.
Speaker 1: So all these different evolutionary pressures, like if you're dodging
Speaker 1: predators constantly, or if you gorge food and then store
Speaker 1: it really well, or if you have a fast metabolism,
Speaker 1: those will affect your internal furnace. And if you're like
Speaker 1: I need to know more about thermophysiology, definitely listen to
Speaker 1: the thermophysiology episode of Ologies with doctor Shane Campbell Staton.
Speaker 1: His episode is amazing. Also check out his podcast The
Speaker 1: Biology of Superheroes, which is so good. Okay, but yes,
Speaker 1: evolutionary pressures and hot blood.
Speaker 2: All these different strategies determine a lot of stuff. So,
Speaker 2: like going back to comparing birds and mammals, so we're
Speaker 2: both warm blooded and so another in order for gestation
Speaker 2: of the risk for your babies to develop really really well.
Speaker 2: And this is across our species, even for reptiles. You
Speaker 2: gotta have that right temperature. It literally has to cook.
Speaker 2: When we say it's been in the other has to cook.
Speaker 2: It has to cook, and it has to cook at
Speaker 2: the right temperature. Too hot, too cold, you mess up
Speaker 2: the whole recipe. Nothing's gonna nothing is not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: But there's a few different ways of doing it. So
Speaker 2: a lot of reptiles they drop their eggs, they put
Speaker 2: it in the store, they cover it up, they do
Speaker 2: a little kiss, throw it up to the sky and
Speaker 2: be like, hope it works out. Like mama, reptiles like,
Speaker 2: I did a little temperature check. This ground is about right,
Speaker 2: and I know I'm wouna be gone for forever because
Speaker 2: I ain't gonna never see you again. This stays. Literally,
Speaker 2: kiss up to the sky and I'm out. So that's
Speaker 2: like like turtles. Birds on the other hand, are like,
Speaker 2: you know what, I still gotta get this temperature right,
Speaker 2: but I still need to be able to move a
Speaker 2: little bit here and there to go get some more food.
Speaker 2: Because carrying on these eggs they're heavy. They're heavy female animals.
Speaker 2: When they're grabbed or when they're sitting on the nest,
Speaker 2: they gotta be careful because it makes them easy pickings
Speaker 2: for predators. So that's the reason why you know, Mama
Speaker 2: turtle holds on to those eggs as long as she can. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she incubates them and cooks them out. The wise, she's like,
Speaker 2: I'm too slow. I'm gonna get gobbled up by these
Speaker 2: sharks or whatever else is out here in the water.
Speaker 2: I gotta drop these eggs and lighten my load. Mama
Speaker 2: bird is very similar, but she's like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I can kind of get up and move a little bit.
Speaker 2: So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make this
Speaker 2: really nice nest. I'm gonna insulate it as much as possible.
Speaker 2: If there's a partner involved, we'll take turns sitting on
Speaker 2: it and keeping it warm. But like, they have to
Speaker 2: be careful with that too. If they stay gone too long,
Speaker 2: that throws the temperature off back to the cooking. Like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's the recipe of what happens in mammals is you
Speaker 2: know what, I need to be able to move and
Speaker 2: I need to be able to keep the temperature going.
Speaker 2: So what female mammals are able to do is they're
Speaker 2: able to keep their babies with them at all time.
Speaker 2: They know that temperature is going to be right, They're
Speaker 2: gonna go where they go. There's still some trade offs
Speaker 2: and loss of movement and dexterity, but compared to other species,
Speaker 2: like female mammals are able to still get quite a
Speaker 2: bit done even though they're pregnant up until the last day.
Speaker 2: So that's why some have strategies of sitting still in
Speaker 2: the end, but they think about cats. They stay hunting, yeah,
Speaker 2: till near the end, you know. So that's one of
Speaker 2: the advantages. So, like we have these trade offs, but
Speaker 2: like that temperature control is really important. And what we
Speaker 2: see all these three very dramatic strategies for that temperature
Speaker 2: control across the three main groups of vertebrates. Drop them off,
Speaker 2: wish for the best, Yeah, drop them off, but keep
Speaker 2: up with them. But if things get real reobyed, I'll
Speaker 2: bug out and I'll start all over again. Or this
Speaker 2: we are all, we in this together. That's the mammal
Speaker 2: that we are in this together. I got you when
Speaker 2: you got me.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I have so many questions from listeners
Speaker 1: that know that you're coming on the show. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I announced that you're coming on, and there one's like, ah,
Speaker 1: so I could ask it, but I would rather let
Speaker 1: that ask it.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, We're gonna let those questions cook a second
Speaker 1: longer while we take a quick break to hear about
Speaker 1: sponsors in the show who enable us to make a
Speaker 1: donation to a cause of theologists choosing. And this week,
Speaker 1: doctor Lee chowse some link. That's Science, Engineering and Math Link,
Speaker 1: which is a nonprofit. It was found in two thousand
Speaker 1: and five by Tuka T. Smith in Atlanta, and SemLink
Speaker 1: promotes student achievement and career exploration in math and science
Speaker 1: while increasing student exposure to STEM communities and their mission
Speaker 1: is unveiling potential through exposure. So to learn more or
Speaker 1: to donate yourself, you can see semsuccess dot org. There's
Speaker 1: a link to them in the show notes. So a
Speaker 1: donation went to them in doctor Danielle and Lee's name.
Speaker 1: Thanks to some sponsors of the show who you may
Speaker 1: hear about. Now, okay, your questions this was the most
Speaker 1: asked question y'all patrons Ashley M. Gelhaus, Lauren Krupens, Asia Jaeger,
Speaker 1: Ellen Skilton, Clint Herbert, Alia Meers, hardikem Michael McLeod, Attie Cappello,
Speaker 1: Madeline Winter and first time question asker Miranda Chaves, who
Speaker 1: wrote in simply platypus man, What the fuck? What is
Speaker 1: happening with the platypus? Natalie Landon Brandts is first question
Speaker 1: asker essentially says like, why are they so weird? Do
Speaker 1: they even have nipples? They've got eggs and venom, but
Speaker 1: they're a mammal. What's happening?
Speaker 2: Yeah? All right, So platypuses of mammals because they meet
Speaker 2: the what I call the base criterion of what makes
Speaker 2: a mammal and mammal, and that is they make nourishment
Speaker 2: from memory glands. But they don't have nipples. What so
Speaker 2: you would think nipples, So you can have memory glands
Speaker 2: without nipples. So what happens with the platypuses? They have
Speaker 2: tufts of hair. So we think milk glands are actually
Speaker 2: just special sebaceous glands, those special little glands that hang
Speaker 2: out around here anyway. Mm hmm, So that's what we
Speaker 2: think memory glands are. Still deep research needed to figure
Speaker 2: that out to be honest.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: So they make nourishment still, they make a milk, but
Speaker 2: they don't have nipples, and so basically the babies just
Speaker 2: kind of suckle on little tufts of hair.
Speaker 1: A little like little cowlyx. Just milkshake cowlyx, yeah and
Speaker 1: find out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they just yeah. So yeah. So they're what
Speaker 2: we would call on the evolutionary tree, they're like high up,
Speaker 2: so they're really in between. Like they are a really
Speaker 2: good example of that that bridge of that connection to
Speaker 2: our other vertebrate cousins like the birds and the reptiles
Speaker 2: that we mentioned that I mentioned before, because they have
Speaker 2: that kind of they have so many traits that are
Speaker 2: very bird slash reptilian like mm hmm.
Speaker 1: But they have eggs, they lay eggs, They do lay eggs,
Speaker 1: and so you don't have to have live birth to
Speaker 1: be a mammal.
Speaker 2: No, the drop dead criteria is do you make milk
Speaker 2: for memory glinds. That's where the word comes from, mammal mammary.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter if you drop some eggs or
Speaker 1: have a bill, it doesn't I gotta I have to
Speaker 1: apply to pus expert on because there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people that are just convinced they're not even real.
Speaker 2: So I can't understand thinking that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Platypus says they're real and they're spectacular. Also,
Speaker 1: Platypus experts, watch your dms because I'm onto you. This
Speaker 1: next question, by the way, was just begging for the
Speaker 1: drama of the superlative and was asked by an over
Speaker 1: Colleen Selwood, Alia Myers, and Adam Weaver. A lot of
Speaker 1: folks just want to know if you have a favorite mammal.
Speaker 2: I do so when I was younger, Like I love like,
Speaker 2: I love wools and dogs. I am a dog person.
Speaker 2: I like them all, but I do like dogs.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: My favorite to brag on, though, hm, my favorite to
Speaker 2: brag on are all like mustard its like I love.
Speaker 2: They're the bad asses of the entire animal Those the weasels, weasels,
Speaker 2: honey badgers, I love them. They just regularly take on
Speaker 2: animals fifty times their size. I like to call them.
Speaker 2: They're there. Ain't never skied, they never ski.
Speaker 1: There're spitfires there spitfires.
Speaker 2: They don't come lets a stymph of you.
Speaker 1: Parrots and weasels and just yeah, I feel you on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Let's see so so many questions. I'm skipping
Speaker 1: a lot of questions about platypuses because they were all
Speaker 1: under the same that's neat.
Speaker 2: I love that so many people have so many questions.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: Pie and Aliat Myers is the first time question asker
Speaker 1: it wants to know. Are there any mammals that can't
Speaker 1: make facial expressions? Can most mammals make facial expressions? Is
Speaker 1: that how they communicate?
Speaker 2: Partly many of those that use visuals, so what we
Speaker 2: call facial expressions, that's that's a lot of eye interpretation.
Speaker 2: But what many of them are able to do is
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of dexterity around their their muzzle
Speaker 2: and their nose, and they have a lot of movement
Speaker 2: around their ears and around their eyes, and so what
Speaker 2: we would call facial expressions, they actually do use a
Speaker 2: lot of being able to manipulate those muscles for a
Speaker 2: lot of animal communication within their specie. So we have
Speaker 2: what's called graded signals or discrete signals, So like ears up,
Speaker 2: ears back, they all communicate just slight tweaks of how
Speaker 2: they're you know, of information to conspecifics or even to
Speaker 2: other animals. That they live in these really large communities
Speaker 2: and they need to let things know, especially for animals
Speaker 2: that are communicating with predators, like not today, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: put off a fight.
Speaker 1: What is that expression on your face?
Speaker 2: But what we call facial expressions, that's actually a bit
Speaker 2: more of an interpretation of us because of us as people.
Speaker 1: And so we're looking at it because we have facial expressions.
Speaker 1: So we kind of put that onto other animals.
Speaker 2: We do. But yeah, but do they have this dexterity
Speaker 2: and the muscles in their face? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Alan Skelton wants to know if I have so many
Speaker 1: mammals evolved to cooperate or stay in large groups as
Speaker 1: opposed to other animals.
Speaker 2: So sociality is really common in a lot of species
Speaker 2: that we see that we attribute a lot of high
Speaker 2: cognitive function to We see that, and that's because sociality
Speaker 2: yields a lot of benefits. Think about it. You don't
Speaker 2: have to look for mate when it's time to mate.
Speaker 2: You can conserve your own physiological energy when it comes
Speaker 2: to keeping you warm the right temperature. Being around others
Speaker 2: is a really good way to exploit them for information
Speaker 2: and other resources. So I don't have to be really
Speaker 2: good at hunting, I can let you be good at
Speaker 2: hunting and I come around and pick up scraps. So
Speaker 2: sociality has a lot of benefits. Now there are costs
Speaker 2: to it as well. So likelihood is spreading communicative diseases,
Speaker 2: whether it's like parasites or things like the main or
Speaker 2: even sexually transmitted diseases like you like, it's too many
Speaker 2: of us, and things bad things can be passed around
Speaker 2: really easily, or even sicknesses like what we're experiencing now,
Speaker 2: like with COVID among us. You know, sociality accounts against us.
Speaker 2: But so much of what we need to do to
Speaker 2: make a living requires, for many species, outright cooperation or
Speaker 2: even just passive cooperation. And if nothing else, we got
Speaker 2: to find each other, you know, in order to reproduce.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, unless you've got parthenogenesis going for you.
Speaker 2: So here's the thing. We know that that can happen
Speaker 2: with some medical assistance. But if without medical advances, we're
Speaker 2: back to only working what I call an evolutionary two kit.
Speaker 2: Evolutionary two kit does not allow us to do a
Speaker 2: lot of things very very well for long without the
Speaker 2: aid of others.
Speaker 1: Right, someone I've read somewhere about thinking about everything that
Speaker 1: you have in your life, life, everything that you touch,
Speaker 1: whether it's like a you know, a shirt that you're
Speaker 1: wearing too, a glass that you're drinking out of, how
Speaker 1: many human beings had to be involved in the process
Speaker 1: of that, whether or not you're drinking tea that came
Speaker 1: from somewhere else and someone had to grow it. And
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many people are involved in objects
Speaker 1: that you don't even think about facts.
Speaker 2: Facts.
Speaker 1: So even if you're alone, you're touched by others, but
Speaker 1: not like creepy like ghosts with bad boundaries, just metaphysically.
Speaker 1: We all affect each other and we're in this together.
Speaker 1: Mo Casey had a great question about life expectancy and
Speaker 1: why does a mouse have such a short one compared
Speaker 1: to a horse which lives for decades and is it
Speaker 1: just size? And speaking of which, with the pouched rat,
Speaker 1: how long do they live?
Speaker 2: All right? So starting with them, we know in captivity
Speaker 2: they can live seven to eight years.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, we're.
Speaker 2: Not sure how long I live in the wow because
Speaker 2: from what I can tell, I don't see anyone else
Speaker 2: that's interested in tracking them in a while, So of
Speaker 2: the animals. I have tag fingers crossed. I keep finding them.
Speaker 2: So we usually whenever something lives for a long time
Speaker 2: in captivity, we estimate about half that in a while
Speaker 2: because you know, there's no antibiotics in a while. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's hunting, there's life. Yeah, things that happen. The reason
Speaker 2: why different things live a different times, it's not just
Speaker 2: about size. Size is a correlate with it, but it
Speaker 2: comes down to what's happening with them physiologically, their metabolism,
Speaker 2: how long something takes. So being large enables you to
Speaker 2: avoid a lot of predators. So that's so big things
Speaker 2: don't have as many other things that can take them out.
Speaker 2: If you're not taken out, then you can live a
Speaker 2: long time thereafter, assuming everything else in your body is
Speaker 2: in pretty good shape. You just got to get through
Speaker 2: that scary small period of your life. Ah, so small,
Speaker 2: so fragile. So that's one of the reasons. So once
Speaker 2: you get past that scary juvenile period, then you can
Speaker 2: pretty much live until what we call that natural death
Speaker 2: when your body just wears out. But little things live
Speaker 2: for a short period of time because part of it
Speaker 2: is their metabolism. Their metabolism is real fast they're they're
Speaker 2: they're burning themselves up. We don't use that. That's not
Speaker 2: technically what's happening, but that's just one way to envision
Speaker 2: it from a lay position, is that they're they're always going.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that you got to keep in
Speaker 2: mouth for things like mice is they don't tend to
Speaker 2: die of old age. Like we really take for granted
Speaker 2: as people that most things don't die of old age.
Speaker 1: They just are predated.
Speaker 2: On, predated on or you or you just kind of die,
Speaker 2: you just return to the earth in the arms of
Speaker 2: the angels. So that's but yeah, they do have a
Speaker 2: relatively shorter lifespan, Like so my small mice species can
Speaker 2: live one or two years. They don't tend to Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, but that's part of it. And so like
Speaker 2: basically you like you accumulate these effects and so longer
Speaker 2: lived animals, we tend to see what we call age
Speaker 2: related like disease, what we call natural causes of death,
Speaker 2: so things like you know, diabetes or heart disease or
Speaker 2: like later on set diseases either due to metabolism or structure,
Speaker 2: and animals that tend to be predated upon or die early,
Speaker 2: those things just don't accumulate because they tend to die
Speaker 2: when they're still just in or just past the prime
Speaker 2: of life. And by prime, I mean like the height
Speaker 2: of reproductive life. So in other words, when you're at
Speaker 2: the height of having the most babies and even looking
Speaker 2: at people, old age is a relatively new thing for us.
Speaker 1: Living to be one hundred would not have happened without antibiotics.
Speaker 2: No, no, that's magic. Let's be honest. Yeah, we're the
Speaker 2: transport and talk to someone from two hundred years ago.
Speaker 2: One hundred years is magic. Yeah. The demography if you
Speaker 2: look at it, like fifty was considered old one hundred
Speaker 2: years ago. Our fifty isn't our parents fifty? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 2: so like we technically so back when my mom was
Speaker 2: you know, younger fifty five sixty seen. Oh even, like
Speaker 2: the image of what a fifty five sixty year old
Speaker 2: look like is completely different. Like we started joking, you know, saying, oh,
Speaker 2: today's forty is thirty. Yeah, you know, starting with Demi Moore. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because she know she's defined. But that's actually becoming progressively
Speaker 2: true for our generations. We are a younger forty and
Speaker 2: fifty than our parents were. That's like you for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh just a side note, retirement communities start at
Speaker 1: age fifty five, and Wilfred Brimley rest his recently dearly
Speaker 1: departed soul, was just eighteen thousand, five hundred and thirty
Speaker 1: days old when Cocun started filming, which is just fifty
Speaker 1: years old.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: You can see this generational in Kongruty at the Twitter
Speaker 1: account Brimley line as they tweet out other celebrities who
Speaker 1: have crossed this age line, Matthew McConaughey, Will Smith, when Stefani,
Speaker 1: Jennifer Lopez, Jay Z and the entire cast of friends
Speaker 1: are now older than Wilford Brimley was when he starred
Speaker 1: as an elderly curmudgeon in Cocun. So life man, it
Speaker 1: comes at you fast. Oh, Ferris Bueller crossed it eight
Speaker 1: years ago, but he looks good, right, Okay? Speaking of
Speaker 1: ancient things, this next one was asked by patrons Scott Sheldon,
Speaker 1: Meghan Walker, Vincent Heide, Fernando and Mark Chavs of a
Speaker 1: lot of patrons wanted to know, if it weren't for
Speaker 1: the asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs, do you think that
Speaker 1: mammals would have survived.
Speaker 2: To today now that had to happen for mammal evolution,
Speaker 2: like they like, that is a critical Like when I
Speaker 2: teach mammalogy, that's one of the one historical events that
Speaker 2: is critical. If it had not been for that, mammal
Speaker 2: evolution would have there were still mammals, but they would
Speaker 2: have stayed small, they would have stayed in the ground.
Speaker 2: We would not have had a mammalian radiation that's what
Speaker 2: we call it. That's when the explosion, Like the mammals
Speaker 2: came above ground and they were able to diversify and
Speaker 2: form shape in species. If the dinosaurs had died, none
Speaker 2: of that would have happened. You would not be here
Speaker 2: if it had not been for the KT event.
Speaker 1: Really, this is literally the first I've ever heard that.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, said they had to go for us to flourish.
Speaker 1: Is that why there are say five thousand species of mammals,
Speaker 1: but like thirty thousand species of beetles.
Speaker 2: Insects have been around for a long time, so they've
Speaker 2: experienced some radiation as well. So there's been more mammals
Speaker 2: than we lost some but what we call these radiation
Speaker 2: events then, so think of radiation as spread out, so
Speaker 2: it's not just spread out physically geographically across the globe.
Speaker 2: But it also comes with this diversification and new form
Speaker 2: and type big events. So stochastic events are often the
Speaker 2: reason for radiations of any type across any type of
Speaker 2: organismal species, so that you need like this, like the
Speaker 2: spark that caused it. But they're not necessarily Beetles are
Speaker 2: just there was just a lot of them to begin with,
Speaker 2: you know, just it's just a lot of.
Speaker 1: Your favorite and you love.
Speaker 2: No, I do think most many beetles are pretty. They
Speaker 2: are beautiful, many of them, not all of them. Not
Speaker 2: because roaches are technically beetles and I hate them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, roaches are one. I love bugs, and roaches are
Speaker 1: one that I'm just like, huh uh, nope, nope, nope, Okay,
Speaker 1: just quick aside, bug nerds. I know you're like screaming
Speaker 1: into your windshield or your partner's face. Roaches aren't beetles technically,
Speaker 1: and yet yes, we hear you. You're correct. They're more
Speaker 1: closely related to termites. I did some light reading about it,
Speaker 1: but doctor Lee is here for mammalogy. This is not
Speaker 1: a cockroach episode. But also, don't make me dip my
Speaker 1: toe in the venn diagram between milk and roaches and
Speaker 1: remind you that cockroach milk is a thing and it
Speaker 1: comes from one species of roaches who blurp out this
Speaker 1: substance that is being touted as a super food for humans.
Speaker 1: Are we done with this?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: Moving on, Courtney Ryan had a great question. Do you
Speaker 1: think there are any undiscovered mammals out there?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Really there there are? Yeah, there are places where
Speaker 2: we're really not so undiscovered from the sense of Western science.
Speaker 2: Absolutely wow.
Speaker 1: Let me see. I want to oh. First time question
Speaker 1: asker MJ Kayla Queen, who says I love you both
Speaker 1: and is excited you're on your first time question. Asker says,
Speaker 1: I love mammals. Why are some people afraid of mice?
Speaker 1: Do you think you know what?
Speaker 2: I can't speak for everyone. Are they afraid or are
Speaker 2: they startled? Because it just shocks you to see something scary? Huh?
Speaker 2: And so so I'm not afraid of rodents by any means.
Speaker 2: But if I catch something in the side of my
Speaker 2: eye moving that I wasn't expecting, I'm going to jump.
Speaker 2: That's a very normal startle response. So I believe it's
Speaker 2: naturally be startled by them. But I wonder if this
Speaker 2: whole fear part isn't socially conditioned, because then we tell
Speaker 2: our stales we're supposed to be afraid of. Someone tells you, oh,
Speaker 2: that's a fear reaction as opposed to oh stop, what
Speaker 2: is that? Let's figure it out. So I don't know
Speaker 2: if a lot of people are truly afraid. I do
Speaker 2: believe being startled as natural.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's why some people are more afraid
Speaker 1: of certain bugs too, because they're just faster, you.
Speaker 2: Know, it's the startle, yes, and so for me and
Speaker 2: that's what I don't like them. They sneak up on me.
Speaker 1: To h. Roaches are really fast, but like a pillbug,
Speaker 1: no one's ever like, ah, what is it? You know?
Speaker 2: You know what. I've played with roly Police as a
Speaker 2: kid and I love them, right, so roll police I'm
Speaker 2: okay with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're so slow. A lot of people and I
Speaker 1: will include this in aside, want to know what is
Speaker 1: up with the variation and the number of nipples looking
Speaker 1: at nipple conscious listeners Anthony Stoll, Elliot Warden, Jasmine MacLean,
Speaker 1: and first time question asker Yaki Juaquin, So.
Speaker 2: Hold up even in pouch rats I have counted, like
Speaker 2: the females in my colony, some females have seven, some
Speaker 2: have eight, some have six. Oh huh, so because that's
Speaker 2: usually a very species specific thing, like that's one of
Speaker 2: the things we could say, oh, this species has this
Speaker 2: number of nipples, and that and that, and so we
Speaker 2: were trying to figure out how can we differentiate let's say,
Speaker 2: the species that live in West Africa vocius those that
Speaker 2: lived in eastern and Central Africa. And some early one
Speaker 2: or two papers were saying, oh, the West African ones
Speaker 2: have six nipples and the East African ones have eight. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I can tell you for sure that is the jury
Speaker 2: still out. I have counted animals. I've caught myself from
Speaker 2: the exact same place, same species, and I've caught literally six,
Speaker 2: I've counted six to seven or eight nipples. I had
Speaker 2: some females with odd number of nipples.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, marky Mark's got three and he's a dude.
Speaker 1: So what's up with dude nipples?
Speaker 2: Third nipple? I'm not aware of that. You're not aware
Speaker 2: of that? Is it true? Do you have a third nipple? Monk? Yes?
Speaker 2: So you know just the carryovers? So like, so one
Speaker 2: there's some evolutionary biologists who say it is because males
Speaker 2: either historically may have been able to produce milk back
Speaker 2: in the day, like evolutionarily back in the day, and
Speaker 2: then it was lost, or it's just a physical vestige,
Speaker 2: so it's a vestage just left over, and so it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's just part of the form. It doesn't mean anything,
Speaker 2: So you have all these just leftovers. H But nipples
Speaker 2: usually usually are a good indicator to the number of
Speaker 2: young an animal can support it at time.
Speaker 1: So if you birth triplets out there and you're listening
Speaker 1: to this, my heart and at least one extra boob
Speaker 1: go out to you, I mean I would definitely donate
Speaker 1: them if I had extra nipples like Marky Mark and
Speaker 1: his funky bunch of three. And by the way, those
Speaker 1: are called supernumery nipples. Zach Efron is a member of
Speaker 1: the triple nipple Brigade. Harry Styles isn't because he has
Speaker 1: four nipples. Isn't that fun to know about? One in
Speaker 1: five hundred humans have bonus nipples. Most people think they're
Speaker 1: just moles. So if you have a bumpy birthmark somewhere
Speaker 1: on your milk line aka between your armpit and your
Speaker 1: crotch take a closer look. Although surprise, nipples have shown
Speaker 1: up on backs, on faces, and, in the case of
Speaker 1: one twenty two year old Brazilian woman, the soul of
Speaker 1: her foot. She went to the doc turned two thousand
Speaker 1: and six to be like, Hey, is this thing I've
Speaker 1: had on the sole of my foot normal? And they
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, it's a normal nipple in a really
Speaker 1: creative place. Can we take four thousand pictures of it?
Speaker 2: It rules.
Speaker 1: Also, if you're wondering why approximately half of humans have
Speaker 1: perpetually swollen breasts while all the other rodents and mammals
Speaker 1: don't need sports bras unless they're nursing, one theory is
Speaker 1: that as humans evolve to walk upright and our dairy
Speaker 1: are areas were less swollen in estrus, there needed to
Speaker 1: be an indicator of sexual maturity that was closer to
Speaker 1: eye level, although judging by the phrase my eyes are
Speaker 1: up here, buddy, perhaps face nipples would have been the
Speaker 1: better adaptation. But back to the mammals, the doctor Lee studies,
Speaker 1: We're still talking about nipples, though, what about do male
Speaker 1: rodents have nipples?
Speaker 2: They twice to male talks do, but they stay really
Speaker 2: really flat and flat to the body. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: that's amazing. So here's the other thing. In a lot
Speaker 2: of mammals, males have hair on their bellies, and that's
Speaker 2: one of the things four legged females lose. If they're
Speaker 2: hairy species, they'll lose that hair. That's that's also another
Speaker 2: indicator of We can sometimes use it for indicator of
Speaker 2: sex and reproductive condition is if her belly is bald
Speaker 2: or not, because if her belly's bald, that means she's
Speaker 2: she's at the very least brooding. Some babies because they
Speaker 2: got to be able to get to those nips.
Speaker 1: Oh, they gotta be able to find them.
Speaker 2: And that and the babies rub it off because like
Speaker 2: in the process of nursing, babies are pretty rough on
Speaker 2: it on it underbelly.
Speaker 1: M hm. You know when you see like an older
Speaker 1: guy who doesn't have any hair on his legs from
Speaker 1: like the knee sock area down. Yeah, just worn off,
Speaker 1: just worn off. Oh my god. Okay, questions are always
Speaker 1: ask the thing that you hate about being a mimologist.
Speaker 1: It can be as petty or as big as you want.
Speaker 1: It can be anything from email to cleaning glassware.
Speaker 2: To I hate dealing with poop. I hate poop. Nothing
Speaker 2: ruins me more than having to deal with poop.
Speaker 1: Do rodents have it? Smaller poops?
Speaker 2: At least they are, But I just don't like dealing
Speaker 2: with the smears and the messages. Oh yeah, but that's
Speaker 2: where a lot of important information is. Nothing ficks me
Speaker 2: out and getting pooped on or stepping in it or
Speaker 2: smashing my finger into it. Ooh, I hate the poops.
Speaker 1: Do you have to analyze rat poops?
Speaker 2: I keep some for it. So I'm beginning. Actually that's
Speaker 2: one of the if I can use this as a commercial.
Speaker 2: I'm looking to form a long term relationship with the
Speaker 2: microbiomes microbiome biologist, uh huh, so that we're able to
Speaker 2: use that because they do a poop on me that
Speaker 2: I feel like that's just free data. Yeah, so collecting
Speaker 2: it and then asking some really good questions about that.
Speaker 1: I had a scautologist on who is like doctor Poop
Speaker 1: they call her. She's at the Lincoln Zoo in Chicago.
Speaker 1: But she has thirteen freezers full of poops from every animal.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But if there's a if there's someone out there who's
Speaker 1: looking to do some studies on perhaps some rodents, of
Speaker 1: unusual size with poops of slightly unusual size.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so here's but here's one of the things.
Speaker 2: H I can't bring that over, Like because of international
Speaker 2: rules and laws, I can't take samples out of Tanzania.
Speaker 1: Oh so what do you you have to do it there?
Speaker 2: I either have to do it there. So I have
Speaker 2: some historical data from before they stopped it, so I
Speaker 2: have some old stuff, but I'm still working with local
Speaker 2: my species. But that's also kind of one of the things,
Speaker 2: like cultivating it and kind of like yeah, but so
Speaker 2: I would say my other thing I don't like about
Speaker 2: being a scientist in today's agent is it's sometimes hard
Speaker 2: to do some things based on a lot of the
Speaker 2: rules and risk. That's the other thing. Like there's rules
Speaker 2: because there's a risk of bringing disease agents over. I
Speaker 2: get that, but then sometimes just not having a capacity
Speaker 2: to do everything because I haven't cultivated all the relationships
Speaker 2: that I would love to cultivate, not just here but
Speaker 2: also on the continent, you know, cultivating relationships with more
Speaker 2: continental scientists to do more research. Have it more of
Speaker 2: it just happened there.
Speaker 1: Right, It's not like CSI, where you have the same
Speaker 1: person collecting blood swabs, is doing the footprint analysis and
Speaker 1: in our dreams. Yeah, now what's happening? Okay, what about
Speaker 1: your favorite thing about being a homologist?
Speaker 2: The travel? I do science to travel. I grew up
Speaker 2: in my family we never get to go on family vacation,
Speaker 2: so travel was always a dream of mine. I just
Speaker 2: grew up working class for so my biggest dream was
Speaker 2: to grow up to be middle class. And so there
Speaker 2: are certain things that I was envious of, So like
Speaker 2: being able to travel and go places and back to
Speaker 2: those nature shows that I love. They just seem to
Speaker 2: always be all over the world, and so for me
Speaker 2: being able to travel to see a lot of things.
Speaker 2: For myself, I love being able to travel and visit places.
Speaker 1: Where are some places that you've gotten to go.
Speaker 2: Most of my travels have been because of science, but
Speaker 2: so travel for research related things and learning. I've gone
Speaker 2: to I've been to Guyana. I love that. So I
Speaker 2: got to spend that took a tropical biology class and
Speaker 2: stayed in the bush Tanzania. So I've done research in
Speaker 2: these places. Other places I've been able to travel to
Speaker 2: talk about my research, So visiting so Mexico, Canada, Brazil,
Speaker 2: parts of Europe, so the Netherlands, Rand, the UK again,
Speaker 2: all places I couldn't have gone on my own. Dad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for real. That's why I work in TV too.
Speaker 1: I get to travel for that and that that was
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Like, yeah, I got to
Speaker 1: go to aasca for TV. I'm like, when would I
Speaker 1: get to go do that? Never?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: So, yes, your passport must need extra pages, not lately.
Speaker 2: These days, but I do usually get up right to
Speaker 2: the mark and I'm like, you're telling them, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: there's a space in there.
Speaker 1: Birthday there, Oh my god. Oh And did you want
Speaker 1: to let anyone know about September thirteenth about exciting black homologists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're super excited. So I'm joined by amazing colleagues,
Speaker 2: everyone from undergraduate students to fellow professionals and faculty members.
Speaker 2: We're celebrating Black Mammalogists Week, celebrating not only the research
Speaker 2: that mammalogists have done historically and even today, but also
Speaker 2: kind of invigorating the spark of curiosity and interest in
Speaker 2: mammology and in science in general, just among everyone who's interested,
Speaker 2: letting folks know that there is expertise in mammology historically
Speaker 2: and contemporarily, and we're just excited to share our science
Speaker 2: and our essentially our blooper reels. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: bloopers in doing science and memology in particular, and our
Speaker 2: goal is to inspire folks to become mimologists, to become scientists,
Speaker 2: and to just join this larger community of scientists. We're
Speaker 2: really excited to share this with everyone.
Speaker 1: Do you have any of you any previews of any
Speaker 1: science bloopers that you're going to share.
Speaker 2: I'm probably gonna share when I got bit by a pouchray?
Speaker 2: I got bit?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, were there antibiotics involved?
Speaker 2: Probably should have been, Oh no, where did it buy you?
Speaker 2: But bit me on my left thumb. And that happened
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, and to this day, I still don't
Speaker 2: have feeling back in it.
Speaker 1: Do you know where that pouched rat is?
Speaker 2: You know what? It was? Funny? We were moments away
Speaker 2: from releasing her back to taking measurements. We were just
Speaker 2: getting some last many measurements and we're going to release
Speaker 2: her back in a while. So we released her back
Speaker 2: in a while. I want to imagine she's living her
Speaker 2: best life, oh and telling amazing stories about that one
Speaker 2: time she she took me down. I was physically taken down.
Speaker 2: It took three grown men to get that rat off
Speaker 2: of me.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I physically went down with her.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So she's telling it amazing stories like this one time
Speaker 2: took out this human took her down. My god. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: So every time you give a thumbs up in the left,
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on behind that.
Speaker 2: It's a lot like if we were in person, Like
Speaker 2: you can actually see my thumb, Like I have divots
Speaker 2: in my thumb, like have little marks and divots.
Speaker 1: Wow. Oh oh, that's a good story. People need to
Speaker 1: tune in to hear the whole thing. Oh amazing. This
Speaker 1: has been so great having you on. I just I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm such a fangirl. I've been like so
Speaker 1: nervous and excited to talk.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do when folks say that,
Speaker 2: because I'm always like, we're talking about this, you talk
Speaker 2: about me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So ask smart people stupid questions, because the answers
Speaker 1: may be sniffing out landmines or tuberculosis, or inspire you
Speaker 1: to make you count your nipples in the bathroom mirror
Speaker 1: at work. Now you can follow doctor Lee do it
Speaker 1: asap on Twitter and Instagram at d and Lee five
Speaker 1: and follow Black Mammalogists at BLK Mammalogists or at Black
Speaker 1: Mammalogists all spelled out dot com and those links are
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Plus there are more links up
Speaker 1: at Aliward dot com slash ologies slash mammalogy and we
Speaker 1: are at Twitter and Instagram at ologies on both. I'm
Speaker 1: at ali Ward one l on Twitter and Instagram, so
Speaker 1: please do follow. There's more info up at aliward dot
Speaker 1: com slash Ologies. There are free transcripts for deaf and
Speaker 1: hard of hearing folks or anyone who wants a transcript
Speaker 1: up at Alleyward dot com slash ologies dash Extras. Huge
Speaker 1: thanks to Emily White, who is a professional transcriber who
Speaker 1: heads up the efforts to get them done alongside a
Speaker 1: group of amazing ologites. And if you need transcripts for anything,
Speaker 1: email hire Emilywhite at gmail dot com because she is amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you Caleb Patton for bleeping episodes for kiddos. Thank
Speaker 1: you to Aaron Talbert for admitting the ologies podcast Facebook group.
Speaker 1: Thank you Shannon Feltas and Bonnie Dutch. They manage merch
Speaker 1: at ologiesmerch dot com. There are shirts and hats and tots,
Speaker 1: advisors so much available. There even cozyfall blankets in ologies
Speaker 1: print available at ologiesmerch dot com. Shannon and Bonnie also
Speaker 1: host the comedy podcast You Are That and They're Hilarious.
Speaker 1: Thank you Noel Dilworth for helping move all the scheduling
Speaker 1: because my brain is bad at it. Thank you to
Speaker 1: assistant editor aka the Butcher, Jared Sleeper, who hosts the
Speaker 1: mental health podcast My Good Bad Brain, and of course
Speaker 1: to lead mustache editor Stephen Ray Morris of the podcast
Speaker 1: Sea Jurassic Right, which is currently airing a back to
Speaker 1: school series with dinosaurs scientists. So that is Sea Jurassic
Speaker 1: Right his podcast. Also Nick Thorburn of the band Islands
Speaker 1: wrote the theme music and performed it. And if you
Speaker 1: stick around all the way through the credits to the
Speaker 1: end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And
Speaker 1: this week the secret is that I read some hack
Speaker 1: that if you put dish soap on your shower floor
Speaker 1: and then baking soda and you let it sit a
Speaker 1: couple hours or overnight, and then you come back the
Speaker 1: next day, your grout has never been cleaner. So I
Speaker 1: tried it, y'all. It works. Also be careful because it's slippery.
Speaker 1: Nobody needs to fall naked. I was on a date
Speaker 1: once s where a guy told me about how he
Speaker 1: passed out in the shower because he had hemorrhoids so
Speaker 1: bad and he cracked his head open, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is a lot of information. He also mentioned that
Speaker 1: he had a fiance but he was planning on breaking
Speaker 1: up with her over the phone, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is not going to go forward. My point is,
Speaker 1: don't slip and fall in the shower. But sparkling grout,
Speaker 1: what a daymaker. Okay, enjoy Black Mammalogist Week and then
Speaker 1: get ready for a very creepy October. Not too creepy
Speaker 1: but pretty great. By Okay, we're by pacodermatology, homology or
Speaker 1: do zoology, lithology, Yeah, technology, meteorology, mettology, methology, seriology, elinology
Speaker 2: Nothing but mammals.