Speaker 1: Welcome to break Free and Trust a redesign for Living.
Speaker 1: Join me Chris and.
Speaker 2: Me Jacqueline for real conversations about life, death, and everything
Speaker 2: in between.
Speaker 1: Learn to connect with your intrinsic power to grow and heal,
Speaker 1: have a laugh at your own humanness, and not take
Speaker 1: life too seriously.
Speaker 2: Through healthy conversations between the feminine and masculine, you learn
Speaker 2: how to harness the power of relationship and the mirror,
Speaker 2: to befriend your shadow, and to trust that any obstacle
Speaker 2: that gets in your way is there to help.
Speaker 1: You grow Together. Working at a practical levels, you learn
Speaker 1: to trust that everything that is happening is for you,
Speaker 1: your growth and ultimate freedom.
Speaker 2: Our circumstances don't matter. It's only how we relate to
Speaker 2: them it does.
Speaker 1: Get ready to be your friend the wisdom of your
Speaker 1: body and the power of your mind.
Speaker 2: Break Free and Trust starts.
Speaker 1: Now, and Welcome to break Free and Trust a Redesign
Speaker 1: for Living. I am Chris and I'm Jacqueline. And they're
Speaker 1: going to start this episode off with a quote that
Speaker 1: goes of what we're going to be talking about, and
Speaker 1: it goes like this, one does not become enlightened by
Speaker 1: imagining figures of light while but making the darkness conscious,
Speaker 1: and that's Carl young and Young is pointing at something
Speaker 1: most of us would rather avoid. The path doesn't run
Speaker 1: through the light we imagine, it runs through the dark
Speaker 1: we won't look at. And the darkness rarely announces itself
Speaker 1: as darkness. It shows up as a reaction that's far
Speaker 1: bigger than the moment it caused. I've been sitting with
Speaker 1: my own triggers lately, and instead of managing them or
Speaker 1: explaining them away, I got really curious and I followed
Speaker 1: one all the way down and what I found waiting
Speaker 1: there wasn't a flaw or defect. It was a guard,
Speaker 1: something that has been standing watch over an old wound
Speaker 1: for a very long time and doing exactly the job
Speaker 1: was built for. I even had a name, and once
Speaker 1: I was willing to give it one, it took it on.
Speaker 1: And then I did something that felt really uncomfortable at first,
Speaker 1: but it turned out to be one of the most
Speaker 1: intimate things I've done. I introduced it to Jacqueline. So
Speaker 1: today the two of us want to go into the together.
Speaker 1: What is the trigger actually pointing at and why is
Speaker 1: the reaction always bigger than the moment? Who are these
Speaker 1: protectors that show up for us? And what exactly are
Speaker 1: they guarding? Is a protector an enemy to be defeated
Speaker 1: or something to be met, named and thanked? And what
Speaker 1: happens to a relationship when you introduce yours the person
Speaker 1: you love? So all this and more in the next
Speaker 1: hour and for live years will take questions in the
Speaker 1: second half, So put their questions in the chat or
Speaker 1: calling it one eight hundred nine three zero two eight
Speaker 1: one nine.
Speaker 2: Thanks Chris. So we're shifting gears a little bit on
Speaker 2: this call because we spent a lot of time focused
Speaker 2: on me and learning those places where I get vulnerable
Speaker 2: and come to you, and this time the experience was
Speaker 2: entirely different. And I remember you coming to me a
Speaker 2: few weeks ago and telling me that you had had
Speaker 2: a conversation that had really left with wanting to have
Speaker 2: a discussion with me when I was ready, and that
Speaker 2: you had found something really important through that conversation that
Speaker 2: you wanted to share. And then we got on a
Speaker 2: plane and we had a little time to get yeah,
Speaker 2: and you introduced me to what you were just speaking about,
Speaker 2: which is the name of the guard that you had
Speaker 2: come to see. And as you said earlier, there was
Speaker 2: something incredibly intimate that showed up through that conversation and
Speaker 2: an awareness on both of our parts that we had
Speaker 2: just touched something really important in terms of relationship. And
Speaker 2: so you decided to be a little a little maybe
Speaker 2: a little more vulnerable on this podcast and share some
Speaker 2: of what that was about for you. So, do you
Speaker 2: want to introduce us to what you figured out or
Speaker 2: what you found?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure I figured anything out. Yeah when
Speaker 1: I when I was to discover, but I got laughing
Speaker 1: there because I'm recognizing that's a great strategy if I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you something where you can't leave,
Speaker 1: I wait till you get on a plane. So listeners
Speaker 1: out there a great strategy.
Speaker 2: Except our plane ride was only just over an hour,
Speaker 2: so you didn't have it's perfect free seeds.
Speaker 1: Actually all joking aside, it's you know, uh, back up,
Speaker 1: and as we get into this, just what the even
Speaker 1: what the impetus was for me to start exploring this?
Speaker 1: Done lots of work on myself over the last several years,
Speaker 1: and you know, some of the stuff we've shared in
Speaker 1: this podcast, and I don't get triggered a lot anymore.
Speaker 1: I mean I'm human. I get triggered, but it's it's
Speaker 1: not as nearly as frequent as it used to be,
Speaker 1: you know, say even five or six year ago, years ago.
Speaker 1: And I started noticing, particularly in this past year, that
Speaker 1: the triggers I was having had a certain flavor to them.
Speaker 1: They generally around the same thing. And the catalyst for me,
Speaker 1: my aha, I'm going you know what I actually want
Speaker 1: to look into this a little more was I was
Speaker 1: reading this book recently called Resurrecting Jesus by Adi Ashanti,
Speaker 1: And in the in this book, one of the things
Speaker 1: he's he's talking it's a metaphysical look at the teachings
Speaker 1: of Jesus, which you know, I'm a big fan of
Speaker 1: and i'd never read this author before. I found his
Speaker 1: stuff fascinating. But something he talked about in there was
Speaker 1: one of the things to understand about the Jesus story
Speaker 1: is nobody understood him, including like his disciples. He was
Speaker 1: just this guy that was constantly misunderstood. I don't think
Speaker 1: i'm that character. And I only bring it up because
Speaker 1: that when I read that, that's when this light bulb
Speaker 1: put off my head. Oh that's my trigger. My trigger
Speaker 1: is when I'm feeling not understood, particularly by people that
Speaker 1: I love and I care about, but I desperately want
Speaker 1: them to understand me. And I've sort of replayed the
Speaker 1: last sort of year in my mind and just thought
Speaker 1: of all these altercations I have where I was triggered
Speaker 1: and disregulated, and yet all those roots of not being understood.
Speaker 1: I was trying to get something across or say something
Speaker 1: I was feeling really misunderstood, and as a result, I
Speaker 1: would go into this sort of you know, dark mode
Speaker 1: I call it for now. So I wanted to understand
Speaker 1: this a bit more, so I reached out to you know,
Speaker 1: the therapist.
Speaker 2: To keep going. So when you speak to this idea
Speaker 2: of going into this dark mode, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: That's a great question. So my triggered state, which I
Speaker 1: call dark mode, sometimes I first thing I notice is
Speaker 1: my breath get shell. I start to feel even more
Speaker 1: disassociated for my body, and then I take on a
Speaker 1: bunch of character traits which are I tend to a
Speaker 1: little bit mean, I tend to get a little bit short,
Speaker 1: I tend to get a little patronizing and a little
Speaker 1: bit cold, and and part of me just wants to
Speaker 1: get out of there. And so I'm using all these
Speaker 1: things as a way to sort of end the conversation
Speaker 1: and move on. So that's that's my dark mode. Okay,
Speaker 1: great question. And so I reach out to my reach
Speaker 1: out to my therapist and said, he listen, I want
Speaker 1: to explore this thing, but I want to explore it
Speaker 1: a different way. It's like, I know the origin of
Speaker 1: this thing. I've explored that to death. I've looked at
Speaker 1: the origin stories of these various you know, trauma for
Speaker 1: lack of a better word I had. I don't want
Speaker 1: to go back there and explore this thing. I want
Speaker 1: to come at this a different way because I want
Speaker 1: to understand why is this one still showing up? The
Speaker 1: other one seem to have faded away. The other ones
Speaker 1: that have come from these origin stories don't really show
Speaker 1: up in the same way, but this one just seems
Speaker 1: to be so acute. I want to come at this
Speaker 1: a different way.
Speaker 2: And when you say this one, you're talking about this
Speaker 2: wound of feeling misunderstood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, whatever, whatever's behind that that's leading to this
Speaker 1: this this is the one that keeps persisting even though
Speaker 1: I can point at it and say, well, I can
Speaker 1: really see where that came from. I can really see
Speaker 1: in my childhood where that shows up. I can name
Speaker 1: number of events I can play it over, but why
Speaker 1: does it keep showing up? And she had this idea
Speaker 1: of let's come at it a different way. Let's think
Speaker 1: of it differently. Let's think of this as it's a
Speaker 1: guard or protector that's showing up. Can you describe it?
Speaker 1: And much in the same way I describe it now,
Speaker 1: It's like I described in terms of well, okay, well,
Speaker 1: it's cold, it's patronizing, it's it's controlling, it's a little
Speaker 1: bit mean. Okay, well, let's let's give it a name,
Speaker 1: Like what does it sound like? Is it like it?
Speaker 1: Is it the the analyst? Is it the is it
Speaker 1: the hero? Is it the sacrifice of the lawyer? And
Speaker 1: boom yet the lawyer. That's That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1: It wants to It wants to prosecute the case, it
Speaker 1: wants to win, It wants to have its case heard,
Speaker 1: and it wants the case to shut and move on
Speaker 1: with the victory. That's exactly what's showing up. And it's
Speaker 1: so the opposite of a character I want to play
Speaker 1: and who I want to be. I don't want to
Speaker 1: be that character. But that's the character that's showing up,
Speaker 1: and so that's and then within this further conversation about
Speaker 1: she recommended what would it be like to introduce this
Speaker 1: protector to Jacqueline, And that's where we ended up on
Speaker 1: a plane meeting the lawyer.
Speaker 2: So I think I want to take us a step back,
Speaker 2: because the lawyer, the lawyer, you refer to it as
Speaker 2: a guard or a protector, is managing something. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: that character, for lack of a better word, shows up
Speaker 2: to manage something that's pretty deep, which for you, as
Speaker 2: you described it was a wound of feeling not understood. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: And so it serves it serves the purpose of protecting
Speaker 2: that or guarding that emotion for actually being exposed both
Speaker 2: to you and to those around right. Correct, And so
Speaker 2: knowing that I knew the wound, why was introducing me
Speaker 2: to the lawyer so important?
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure use I use the word important.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure. It was a suggestion where I could
Speaker 1: see it as being potentially helpful, is the way I
Speaker 1: introduced it in this sense, Hey, I'm coming to terms
Speaker 1: of this thing. I've named this thing, and when it
Speaker 1: shows up, I'm asking your help to identify it with
Speaker 1: me so we can name it together, we can see
Speaker 1: it together, and within that, maybe we can co create
Speaker 1: the management of this protector between the two of us,
Speaker 1: not just me and my own trying to do it
Speaker 1: on my own myself, but can we both work together
Speaker 1: to help me manage this protector in a way that's
Speaker 1: that works better for me and for our relationship.
Speaker 2: That you took that way further than I expected you to.
Speaker 2: You're catching me off guard a little bit now. But
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing in that and what I really felt
Speaker 2: in that conversation was I'm aware that there is a
Speaker 2: part that I play when a really big trigger shows
Speaker 2: up for me, and I want to expose both why
Speaker 2: it's showing up and what it looks like so that
Speaker 2: you and I can figure things out together.
Speaker 1: Yes, totally, yeah, And it's and it's and it's really
Speaker 1: specific to situations that again, it's not something that's like
Speaker 1: I think the event is not being understood, but the
Speaker 1: wound lights lies believe that. Like, I'm more than happy
Speaker 1: to be not understood by almost everybody, and there's lots
Speaker 1: and lots of people other than understand me. I don't
Speaker 1: care if they do, it's not necessary. I'm fine with it.
Speaker 1: It it's but it does matter when it's say when
Speaker 1: it's say you, it's my father, it's our kids. That's when,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the event of not being understood
Speaker 1: drives deeper into something like a fear of rejection, that
Speaker 1: dives deeper to something like I'm not safe here. I'm
Speaker 1: not safe. I need to do something about this, but
Speaker 1: only with people that I have this very strong, loving
Speaker 1: relationship with nobody else. It doesn't show up anywhere else.
Speaker 1: That's why it's so critical to deal with you.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is that it doesn't show
Speaker 2: up with anybody else? Why does it only show up
Speaker 2: with the people that are closest to you?
Speaker 1: You know? I think it's Uh, it feels very tribal
Speaker 1: for me. It feels it really does feel like there's
Speaker 1: a like I'm I'm comfortable and feel safe in my
Speaker 1: in my family unit and my close tribe. I don't
Speaker 1: feel a need to belong in any way to some
Speaker 1: bigger tribe, but that lack that safety is important. I'm
Speaker 1: guessing out why that is. And so.
Speaker 2: When you shared that with me, what happened for you
Speaker 2: in that moment, I can share what happened for me,
Speaker 2: but I'm curious just to keep eyes on you for
Speaker 2: a little bit, or ears on you for a little
Speaker 2: what happened for you and speaking to the characteristics of
Speaker 2: the lawyer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and to be honest, like, the first thing
Speaker 1: I had to overcome was my fear of being misunderstood, right,
Speaker 1: like like talking about my fear of being misunderstood. I
Speaker 1: had a fear of being misunderstood in this whole thing.
Speaker 1: Was I going to be able to articulate it in
Speaker 1: a way that that was going to be helpful? Or
Speaker 1: was I going to was I going to say it?
Speaker 1: Was I going to say it in a way that
Speaker 1: would trigger you? All these things are going through my mind.
Speaker 1: So I had a bit of anxiety and apprehension in
Speaker 1: even doing that because the fear that doing it was
Speaker 1: the fear itself. So that's part of what I had
Speaker 1: to overcome.
Speaker 2: And so just staying with you for now, Yeah, how
Speaker 2: did you manage that fear? How did you find the
Speaker 2: courage to recognize that that was there for you and
Speaker 2: to step into the conversation.
Speaker 1: Anyways, predominantly because it wasn't my own idea and that's
Speaker 1: and this sounds counterintuitive, is just like I had gone
Speaker 1: through the pro I've gone through the process of I've
Speaker 1: identified something and instead of saying I'm going to try
Speaker 1: to find us I'm going to try to intellectualize a
Speaker 1: solution for it, I reached. I reached out into the universe.
Speaker 1: In this case, you're a therapist and act for guidance.
Speaker 1: And when that that guidance came through, it felt like
Speaker 1: it was coming from a higher place. And so that
Speaker 1: in itself gave me sort of the courage or the
Speaker 1: faith to like, I'm going to I'm going to this
Speaker 1: is a fear, but I'm going to push through it.
Speaker 1: I feel it's coming from that place. And anytime I've
Speaker 1: done that in the past, that's been it's always had
Speaker 1: a good outcome.
Speaker 2: Okay, And just so our listeners are clear, because I
Speaker 2: think this piece is important, it's not because it came
Speaker 2: from a therapist that you feel comfortable speaking to. It's
Speaker 2: because what came from the therapist felt really aligned with
Speaker 2: what was true for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. And again it's that
Speaker 1: thing I'll say, it didn't come from me, right, it
Speaker 1: didn't come from my thinking and my own conditioning that
Speaker 1: was also intertwined in this in the spirit itself.
Speaker 2: Okay, and so I just want to speak to what
Speaker 2: it feels like a little bit on the receiving end
Speaker 2: of the introduction to this conversation, because I think, well,
Speaker 2: I know it's really important, which is when Chris came
Speaker 2: to me with this, He came to me with vulnerability.
Speaker 2: I've been exploring this with my therapist and she recommended
Speaker 2: that we explore it together. Would you be willing to
Speaker 2: have a conversation. So already he had set me up
Speaker 2: in a place where my heart was open. I wasn't defended,
Speaker 2: I wasn't ready to attack. I was ready to listen
Speaker 2: because something was really important to him. And as it
Speaker 2: started and he shared some of this piece around not
Speaker 2: being understood, a part of what happened for me was
Speaker 2: a deep desire to understand, which was then to ask
Speaker 2: a bunch of questions. And I say that because when
Speaker 2: we in relationship, whether it's friendship or it's partners, even
Speaker 2: with our kids, when we come together to have important conversations,
Speaker 2: whatever we can do to create an arena that feels
Speaker 2: safe and disarming is going to make these conversations so
Speaker 2: much easier. If Chris is coming to me with there's
Speaker 2: something really important and deep that I want to explore.
Speaker 2: Will you give me your listening and have a conversation
Speaker 2: about it. I'm going to be much more responsive than
Speaker 2: the lawyer showing up letting me know that I didn't
Speaker 2: understand him. And for all of these reasons X, Y,
Speaker 2: and Z are going to happen, you're not going to
Speaker 2: get the same You're not going to get the same response.
Speaker 2: And so I'm sharing that because I think the setup
Speaker 2: is actually really important. Lots of people often say to us, well,
Speaker 2: you know, that's great, you guys have this kind of relationship,
Speaker 2: but what happens when that kind of relationship isn't there. Well,
Speaker 2: the setup is really important because it creates the potential
Speaker 2: for deeper listening and communication.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I would even go further and say
Speaker 1: this set and the setup wasn't performative in the sense
Speaker 1: that some can be. It is like with all authenticity,
Speaker 1: I'm recognizing this trigger resides in me from something from
Speaker 1: my experience, my path that's then getting projected onto you
Speaker 1: when this happened. So I was legitimately saying I want
Speaker 1: to explore this thing that's in me. There's no part,
Speaker 1: you know, the performative vulnerability.
Speaker 2: It was true, and my intention wasn't to say it
Speaker 2: was performative. It was just to set things up because
Speaker 2: we're often asked, well, how do you do that? Well,
Speaker 2: this is a piece of how we can do that
Speaker 2: for you. It was natural. But in many situations, especially
Speaker 2: as we move into conversations that are really vulnerable or
Speaker 2: can be really heated, the setup is actually really important.
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah, and I guess yeah, And I think the
Speaker 1: point I didn't make the point Well, the point I
Speaker 1: was making is you actually have to believe you want
Speaker 1: to do this work yourself. Yeah. Right, you're actually looking
Speaker 1: you're actually looking to change something within you, not the
Speaker 1: other person, and you're going to be legitimate about that. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: So what did it feel like for you ultimately to
Speaker 2: share what the lawyer looked like and how he showed up,
Speaker 2: and how you wanted partnership around meeting him when he
Speaker 2: showed up?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, much like you you alluded to. Your
Speaker 1: response to it was so open and so willing and
Speaker 1: so curious that it immediately any anxiety your fear I
Speaker 1: had around it discussing this went away, and then in
Speaker 1: that moment, for sure, it just felt like, oh I've
Speaker 1: got I'm like, it's almost like I'm dropping this this
Speaker 1: sort of weight I've been carrying around without even knowing it.
Speaker 1: This this character, this protector we call the yer, uh
Speaker 1: is now it's now not hiding somewhere in me that
Speaker 1: emerges in the relationship once in a while. This lawyer
Speaker 1: is now part of the relationship. This lawyer has come in,
Speaker 1: he's been he's been identified, he's been introduced, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure he'll be back, but the context that he'll come
Speaker 1: back and will be very, very different. And we can
Speaker 1: then work together to understand what is it your what
Speaker 1: is it, what's the lawyer protecting? What's actually going on?
Speaker 1: I don't have to do it alone, do it with
Speaker 1: you in the sort of this union. So it creates
Speaker 1: a you know, a tremendous sense of you know, relief
Speaker 1: and dropping this weight, relief and overcoming the fear of
Speaker 1: discussing something that feels very personal. And then finally, you know,
Speaker 1: just as it all settles in, uh, this few this
Speaker 1: forward looking view that has even more peace in it.
Speaker 2: And I just say, on my end, you know, you
Speaker 2: spoke about when you get triggered, and we should come
Speaker 2: back to have a conversation about triggers in general. But
Speaker 2: when you get triggered, some of the behaviors or attitudes
Speaker 2: or whatnot that show up are cold, they're patronizing, they're mean.
Speaker 2: And what happened for me in that conversation when I
Speaker 2: was able to meet this character that you describe as
Speaker 2: a lawyer, what I was able to actually understand is, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: So when these qualities start to show up, they're showing
Speaker 2: up to protect a place that feels very vulnerable. And
Speaker 2: if I can actually hear that the lawyer is showing up,
Speaker 2: then I know that my husband is feeling really vulnerable.
Speaker 2: And rather than react to the lawyer, I can respond
Speaker 2: to the part that fails rejected or misunderstood and engage
Speaker 2: with that part so that the lawyer can quiet. And
Speaker 2: that's in terms of relationship dynamics, that's huge because that
Speaker 2: means that my protector doesn't have to wake up and
Speaker 2: start reacting to yours, but I can actually stay in
Speaker 2: a place that's centered in my heart and meet you
Speaker 2: from that space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you asked, and you asked me a great question.
Speaker 1: As we're going through this, What what is it you
Speaker 1: would like for me in those moments? And I had
Speaker 1: to say with it for a while, and then it
Speaker 1: came to me, I'd like you to I like you too,
Speaker 1: and give your permission to to ask me in those moments, Chris,
Speaker 1: are you feeling misunderstood right now? And that and that
Speaker 1: becomes and that becomes a you know we've agreed upon,
Speaker 1: you know, discourse or a phrase that can that can
Speaker 1: de escalate the situation because in the moments it's happening,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that's what's happening. But by pointing
Speaker 1: it out, I can say, oh, maybe maybe that's what's
Speaker 1: going on here, and it just changes the trajectory of everything.
Speaker 1: It lowers the temperature.
Speaker 2: Okay, so do you want to go back a little
Speaker 2: bit and speak a little about a little bit about
Speaker 2: triggers and protectors in general. Yeah, I need you.
Speaker 1: You want to take us awa, I'll lead you to
Speaker 1: a little bit here, so you know, how what would
Speaker 1: you how would you describe a trigger? What is a trigger?
Speaker 2: A trigger is something that sets off my nervous system.
Speaker 2: So I would say that a trigger can be it depends,
Speaker 2: Actually it can be if I've slept well, I've eaten well,
Speaker 2: and I'm feeling good. Some of dropping a glass of
Speaker 2: orange juice on my lap, I might laugh at if
Speaker 2: I haven't done those things, a glass of orange juice
Speaker 2: dropping on my lap could be a trigger. And I
Speaker 2: say it like that because a trigger itself, by definition,
Speaker 2: is something that sets our nervous system off. But the
Speaker 2: trigger may vary depending on where our nervous system actually
Speaker 2: sits in any given moment. So if I'm not feeling well,
Speaker 2: or i haven't slept well, or I'm struggling with something,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be more easily triggered into a state
Speaker 2: of arousal than I would be if I had been
Speaker 2: I had slept well, and I'd been taking care of myself.
Speaker 2: Things will just sort of roll off my back. But
Speaker 2: if that's not the case, I'm going to get reacted,
Speaker 2: and reaction in my body looks like my heart starts
Speaker 2: to race, I start to feel hot. I feel like
Speaker 2: I have to defend myself, or I can move into attack.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I move into wanting to shut off the world
Speaker 2: and totally beat myself. My biggest I know that my
Speaker 2: most natural response to getting triggered is to put up
Speaker 2: a nice big wall. Mm hm, Heart, What does getting
Speaker 2: triggered look like for you?
Speaker 1: Before therefore I go out there, I want to ask
Speaker 1: you you that was that was really interesting. You mentioned
Speaker 1: those sort of the nervousness am aspect of the trigger,
Speaker 1: and so in certain in certain states of the nervous system,
Speaker 1: the triggers are more easily activated or triggered. Take me
Speaker 1: to a place where you've gottenough sleep, you're fully fed,
Speaker 1: everything you've meditated and whatnot, and then and then you're triggered.
Speaker 1: What's is there a different depth of trigger that we're
Speaker 1: talking about. It sounds like there's a higher level, superficial trigger.
Speaker 1: Can there be something deeper?
Speaker 2: Sure? And I mean I think that what you're what
Speaker 2: you're guiding me to is to that place where something
Speaker 2: that doesn't want to be exposed gets exposed. So when
Speaker 2: you speak to that, I would say, yeah, if something
Speaker 2: happens that elicits shame, feelings of rejection, feelings of grief,
Speaker 2: deep loneliness, questions of my own self worth, deep fear,
Speaker 2: the response is going to be entirely different. And what's
Speaker 2: going to happen in my experience, is that all the
Speaker 2: protectors and guards that have shown up to protect me
Speaker 2: first from experiencing emotions that were too hard for me
Speaker 2: to experience. Are going to rally and they're going to
Speaker 2: surround that feeling with as much of their energy as
Speaker 2: they can to protect me from having to feel that shame.
Speaker 2: Let's just say as an example, and so what will
Speaker 2: happen is my response will be to project outward so
Speaker 2: that what's what I'm hiding inside doesn't have to be
Speaker 2: felt first by me and then seen by any winner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sounds it sounds like, you know,
Speaker 1: it just sounds like things that are coming from your
Speaker 1: past and your experience, or the things that are that
Speaker 1: are being triggered in one way or another.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that when our wounds
Speaker 2: get triggered, an entirely different level of trigger shows up.
Speaker 2: Both of them are triggering our nervous systems, and they're
Speaker 2: triggering your nervous systems into a level of arousal, which,
Speaker 2: when those things get triggered, can move into a level
Speaker 2: of hyper arousal, which has us behave and do things
Speaker 2: in ways that are really out of alignment with who
Speaker 2: we want to be. And I think it's time for
Speaker 2: us to take a break, So how about we come
Speaker 2: back to that after the break.
Speaker 1: That's not good yet.
Speaker 3: Let your dreams and not your doubts drive your decisions. Often,
Speaker 3: like ninety nine point nine percent of the time, it
Speaker 3: will require you to stretch yourself into unknown territory. But that,
Speaker 3: my friend, is how you grow. You are making decisions
Speaker 3: all day long, decisions about what to eat, what to wear,
Speaker 3: who to call, decisions about how to spend your time
Speaker 3: and who to spend it with, or how to spend
Speaker 3: your money and what to spend it on. If just
Speaker 3: for today you stop to before readecision and checked in
Speaker 3: with yourself and let your dreams lead the way. What
Speaker 3: would change and what could be possible for you. I'm
Speaker 3: Beth Larsen, host of the Flourish Frequency Show. Join me
Speaker 3: every third Thursday at eleven am Pacific time, or visit
Speaker 3: my website bethlarsincoaching dot com for archives, shows and more
Speaker 3: information to tune you into your personal flourish frequency.
Speaker 1: And we are back before the break. We were were
Speaker 1: just starting to dive into triggers a little bit and
Speaker 1: talked about you know, all triggers. Ultimately, I'm going to
Speaker 1: paraphrase our you know as our nervous system being activated.
Speaker 1: Some of them are potentially you know, more superficial that
Speaker 1: are related about a sleep, you've got what's happening right
Speaker 1: now in the moment, our anxiety. But some of them
Speaker 1: are run much deeper. And these are the and these
Speaker 1: are the ones that are coming from potentially some of
Speaker 1: our own personal woundings. And it's where the where the
Speaker 1: protectors remain hidden. If I take us there, Jacqueline, what
Speaker 1: are some what some kind of the wounding that leads
Speaker 1: to triggers and protectors? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Well? I think, and we might be seeing this differently,
Speaker 2: but I think that the wounding itself is the trigger.
Speaker 2: So something triggers that wound into our awareness. I think
Speaker 2: I describe it this way. You know, we have the
Speaker 2: big s self, how we identify ourselves when we're at
Speaker 2: our best, and we're we're curious, and we're present and
Speaker 2: many other qualities. And then we have of these places
Speaker 2: where parts of us get activated, wounded parts of us
Speaker 2: get activated. And when those pieces of us get activated,
Speaker 2: something else shows up entirely. And it's then that those
Speaker 2: you know, in ifs we call them managers in your
Speaker 2: language and in the language of your therapists, we're calling
Speaker 2: them protectors and arts, but essentially they are you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's the bouncer that's showing up to protect the heart.
Speaker 2: Am I answering your question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm just sitting with it. So, you know,
Speaker 1: an event happened, event, an external event happens, and it
Speaker 1: triggers it's a trigger for activating some part of us
Speaker 1: that has been wounded in the past that's now being
Speaker 1: pulled into the present. Is that sort of what you're
Speaker 1: saying here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'll speak it in a way that
Speaker 2: I understand it in this moment, and I could probably
Speaker 2: build it in many different ways at different times, but
Speaker 2: essentially interactive experience in what's happening in our day to
Speaker 2: day life. When something triggers us, it's almost as if
Speaker 2: that part that gets triggered pushes our big ass self
Speaker 2: out of the picture, and all of a sudden, what
Speaker 2: we're interacting with is a trauma part, a wounded part,
Speaker 2: a core wound that's showing up with all of its
Speaker 2: own qualities that's rooted in the past, and what happens
Speaker 2: when it comes present and pushes the main personality out
Speaker 2: of the way, is that we stop acting like ourselves.
Speaker 2: We don't have access to the same parts of ourselves anymore.
Speaker 2: What we have access to is this wounded piece.
Speaker 1: Yes, and the protect and the protector that's coming to
Speaker 1: take over to make sure that it's safe.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So my example where started with this, I have this
Speaker 1: not being understood by certain people becomes this triggering event
Speaker 1: that brings in the protector and the protectors coming in
Speaker 1: because there's a part of me that's now feeling fears
Speaker 1: being abandoned, that doesn't think it's safe. So it's starting
Speaker 1: to take over to create the safety that it wants
Speaker 1: for the environment.
Speaker 2: It shows up in order to protect the little boy
Speaker 2: from having to experience the level of terror that he
Speaker 2: would experience if rejection and the fear of rejection and
Speaker 2: abandonment were to completely take over. And so the manager
Speaker 2: comes to be a buffer for the ego so that
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to experience that.
Speaker 1: Yes, And you know, if I think about you before
Speaker 1: I start of took us back in the triggers you're
Speaker 1: asking about some of mine, and I talked about this,
Speaker 1: this particularly one of not being understood. But if I
Speaker 1: go back a few years One of my main ones,
Speaker 1: which had been hidden for a very long time for me,
Speaker 1: was a need to control my environment and everything around.
Speaker 1: And I'd sort of without unwittingly set up my life
Speaker 1: controlling everything, right, that was the way I felt safe.
Speaker 1: There's something within me from my childhood that said, listen,
Speaker 1: you're not safe unless you're in control of your environment.
Speaker 1: And as life happens, you're not really ever in control
Speaker 1: of my environment environment. I never was. I think I
Speaker 1: was under the solution, and as my environment started getting
Speaker 1: less and less controller, not only did my protectors show up,
Speaker 1: but I think in ifs I call it, the firefighter
Speaker 1: shows up, and the firefighter will do whatever it takes
Speaker 1: to put out that fire, including taking the building to
Speaker 1: the grounds, covering everything with water, destroying everything to put
Speaker 1: to put it out. And that's and that's what happened
Speaker 1: to me, and it's like it happens to many people
Speaker 1: that you know, go through things like addiction or whatever.
Speaker 1: The firefighters come in and burn it and that gets
Speaker 1: burnt to the ground in that process.
Speaker 2: And I'm so happy that you brought up the idea
Speaker 2: of addiction there, because really what the firefighters are doing
Speaker 2: is when that core wounding or that deep fear, that
Speaker 2: deep shame, the fear of abandonment, rejection, whatever, whatever it
Speaker 2: looks like, starts to poke through and it's not protected
Speaker 2: enough by the manager. The firefighters are going to show
Speaker 2: up to try and calm it down. And this is
Speaker 2: so primal, Like our brains are programmed to move toward
Speaker 2: pleasure and away from pain, and so this is like
Speaker 2: it's it's this is a primal peace within us. And
Speaker 2: in order to be able to tap into or break
Speaker 2: free of these of the shackles that we put on
Speaker 2: ourselves at some point in our lives, we are going
Speaker 2: to have to take a look at the core wounds
Speaker 2: that are actually driving everything we do. And this is
Speaker 2: what we're talking to. So you were talking about Young's
Speaker 2: quote at the beginning, and it's it's in those dark
Speaker 2: places that we find freedom because it's in actually embracing
Speaker 2: and meeting with, sitting with that fear of rejection, of abandonment,
Speaker 2: of shame, whatever it is, that we're able to actually
Speaker 2: alchemize it into something that's no longer having us turn away,
Speaker 2: but rather has us turned toward ourselves.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, And you think of that, you think of
Speaker 1: the process or you want to say more there before
Speaker 1: I go in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to say, and the beauty
Speaker 2: of what you and I did, thanks, thank you to
Speaker 2: your therapist for that. Guidance is that we don't have
Speaker 2: to look at these pieces of ourselves alone. And when
Speaker 2: we're able to expose these places within us to the
Speaker 2: people that we really love, rather than hiding in shame,
Speaker 2: we're actually able to meet each other in these places
Speaker 2: and invite you know, as you invite me into that
Speaker 2: place in you, it gives me permission to say, hey,
Speaker 2: you know what, I have a core wound too, and
Speaker 2: my protector or a manager looks like a people pleaser.
Speaker 2: So when you see me doing X, Y and Z,
Speaker 2: can you call me into what might be lying underneath it,
Speaker 2: which might be a fear of rejection, right right? And
Speaker 2: then and then as we communicate like that, we get
Speaker 2: to see that we're actually all operating in very similar ways,
Speaker 2: working so desperately to protect places in ourselves that actually
Speaker 2: are often mirrored to us in our lives by people
Speaker 2: we care about the most. And when we can do that,
Speaker 2: we can take our boxing gloves off and start talking
Speaker 2: to each other's hearts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now the key in there is like, this isn't
Speaker 1: This isn't something that just you and I have. This
Speaker 1: is like the general human condition. We're all composed of fears,
Speaker 1: limiting beliefs, protectors, firefighters. They all existed there at some
Speaker 1: level or another.
Speaker 2: And the whole goal is to find a way to
Speaker 2: integrate all of these parts of us. Yeah, into the
Speaker 2: bigger s self, which when it's operating, we show up
Speaker 2: as creative beings. We show up with clarity and curiosity
Speaker 2: and compassion rather than operating from these other places.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know again this idea that I was
Speaker 1: very motivated to want to look into this because I've
Speaker 1: looked into so much of this in the past, and
Speaker 1: I know it comes out on the other side of this.
Speaker 1: The more more we integrate the darkness or the protector
Speaker 1: or understand the wounds and the fears, the more freedom
Speaker 1: they exists on the other side of that doorway. And
Speaker 1: so when I kept noticing and this is it's not
Speaker 1: very often I'm triggered, but it seems to be the
Speaker 1: same thing. Well, here's my choice. I can go out
Speaker 1: there and try to and try to make sure everyone
Speaker 1: understands me, which is impossible because I have no control
Speaker 1: over how other people's brains work or how they see me,
Speaker 1: or I can do the work, and I try, I
Speaker 1: try to pull into the light thing in me that
Speaker 1: is being protected or being hidden from me, And from
Speaker 1: that my belief was I'll even get a greater sense
Speaker 1: of freedom on the other side. You know, so much
Speaker 1: of the twelve steps, for example, is exactly that someone
Speaker 1: comes in, you know, comes into a program because effectively
Speaker 1: they've been using drugs or alcohol or something to manage
Speaker 1: your central nervous system. They have taken that on as
Speaker 1: their protector. I can't these feelings are overwhelming from here.
Speaker 1: I can't handle it. So I'm gonna numb them out
Speaker 1: with all these various things. And then you come in
Speaker 1: and then you come into sobriety and they're all gone.
Speaker 1: That's not part of the program anymore. No drugs, no alcohol,
Speaker 1: no other coping mechanisms. And that's and that's the place
Speaker 1: where you all need to surrender this idea that you
Speaker 1: know how to go and control the environment to make
Speaker 1: it work for you, because that's not working. And you
Speaker 1: go in this full surrender, and the very first thing
Speaker 1: that happens is you go and try to look at
Speaker 1: the pieces that you've hidden in the dark and bring
Speaker 1: them into the light and try to integrate them. Looks
Speaker 1: like we're talking about here, and I'm just going.
Speaker 2: To break that down one more time, okay, because the language,
Speaker 2: the language is important. So you come into a program
Speaker 2: and what you recognize is first the firefighters need to
Speaker 2: be called down.
Speaker 1: At that point, the firefighters are now running the life
Speaker 1: of your life.
Speaker 2: And so the firefighters are forced to the side, as
Speaker 2: sobriety has called forward. So I can't mask with drugs
Speaker 2: and alcohol anymore, scrolling whatever, I mean, whatever, the addiction
Speaker 2: looks like, it's put to the side, which then means
Speaker 2: that I'm actually forced to experience the protectors. So for you,
Speaker 2: in your example, one of those protectors was a controller. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in your example with me, it's the lawyer, but your
Speaker 2: controller showed up really loudly.
Speaker 1: For you, the controller and the achiever.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the controller and the achiever shows up really loudly,
Speaker 2: and neither of them really matters so much in the realm,
Speaker 2: in the realm of getting sober. What happens is you
Speaker 2: start to see how they play themselves out. But they're
Speaker 2: not the answer. The answer lies beneath the behaviors that
Speaker 2: you've learned in order to protect what feels like. You know,
Speaker 2: it's the center of the center, and you're protecting it
Speaker 2: your life. But the only way into healing as you
Speaker 2: move through sobriety is to have to look at what
Speaker 2: it was you've built a life protecting. Yeah, And what
Speaker 2: you're speaking to is the center of the wound. Right.
Speaker 2: And as we've spoken about so many times, there isn't
Speaker 2: one of us that goes through life without having a wound.
Speaker 2: How it shows up in our lives is totally dependent
Speaker 2: on all kinds of circumstances. But the wound itself is
Speaker 2: common to all of humanity, isn't.
Speaker 1: Not absolutely Yeah, it's all. It's all part of our
Speaker 1: unique upbringing, our unique family situation, anique societal situation, and
Speaker 1: it's all. It's all a a collection of belief systems
Speaker 1: and fears and each one is a different one.
Speaker 2: That's it, and it exists across time and space and
Speaker 2: across cultures. We all have. We all have an adventure
Speaker 2: to go on in this lifetime, right, and that adventure
Speaker 2: is really to the center of the center of ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and freedom and all of the movies that we watch
Speaker 2: about the hero. Freedom ultimately looks like making our way
Speaker 2: to the center of that center and not turning away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as Young quotes says, again, one does not become
Speaker 1: in light by imagining figures of light. It's all about
Speaker 1: love and light, but by making the darkness conscious and
Speaker 1: if you can journey to that center. Again, it's not
Speaker 1: about identifying here's the light there. It's like, I need
Speaker 1: to pull this darkness. I want to pull this darkness
Speaker 1: into the light. I want to see what the hidden
Speaker 1: and rejected parts of me, what they are, what they've
Speaker 1: been doing, and how they've been how I've been playing
Speaker 1: a part in my life. I want to make them
Speaker 1: conscious because if I don't, I'll call them fate. And
Speaker 1: it's not fate, it's this. It's the belief system that
Speaker 1: we have the key to unlock if we're going to
Speaker 1: pull them into the light.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting, you know, I just thought of something
Speaker 2: and I had never thought of this before. Is it's
Speaker 2: not actually that these places inside of us are dark,
Speaker 2: that we've pushed them into the darkness to not look
Speaker 2: at them. They are no less, they're no more light
Speaker 2: or less like they're no they're no less light than
Speaker 2: all the rest of us. They're just the parts of
Speaker 2: us that we have relegated to the shifts.
Speaker 1: That's such a you said such an important thing there.
Speaker 1: I got the tingles when you said it, because that's
Speaker 1: that's real point. Clarification is, yeah, there's an't the There
Speaker 1: aren't the good parts and the bad parts. These are
Speaker 1: just the parts, and even go further, those parts of
Speaker 1: us that have been in the dark and may be
Speaker 1: obscured from ourself. We needed them to survive one way
Speaker 1: or another. They've gotten this here and this isn't about
Speaker 1: vilifying them, making them bad, rejecting them. We've been doing
Speaker 1: that our whole lives. That's why they're hiding. They're hiding
Speaker 1: because they feel they'll be realified, rejected. It's bringing them
Speaker 1: out to life and looking and say, okay, the lawyer,
Speaker 1: there you are. Thank you. I understand the role you've
Speaker 1: been playing my entire life, and there may be still
Speaker 1: some need for you, but you can sort of stand
Speaker 1: down now. I see why. Thank you. I integrate you,
Speaker 1: I love you. But you don't have to hide anymore,
Speaker 1: just be out in the open.
Speaker 2: So I want to qualify something there because it sounds
Speaker 2: like maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or maybe our language is
Speaker 2: just a little off, Which is the lawyer itself isn't hiding.
Speaker 2: The lawyer actually has learned how to be quite present.
Speaker 2: What's hiding is what the lawyer's protecting, right is the shame.
Speaker 2: What's hiding is a little boy or a little girl
Speaker 2: who feels like if they actually show themselves with all
Speaker 2: of their vulnerability, they're just going to be rejected. And
Speaker 2: so it's those places the lawyer has been protecting that
Speaker 2: and it's those places that need to be exposed into
Speaker 2: the light. And when they do, the lawyer can stand
Speaker 2: down because the lawyer no longer needs to show up
Speaker 2: to protect that piece.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and I think it might be it might
Speaker 1: be a little bit of both. And absolutely the wounding
Speaker 1: and the fears are hidden the lawyer. The lawyers. I
Speaker 1: would call the lawyer like an in between until I
Speaker 1: went through this exercise. If you asked me, is there
Speaker 1: a lawyer that shows up? What do you think? No,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just I don't even realize I'm out
Speaker 1: of character yet. I hidden that from my I look
Speaker 1: for it and said, oh, yeah, that's like it's like
Speaker 1: I'm doctor jack o, will mister hide in these situations?
Speaker 1: Now I see it now, and now I see it
Speaker 1: now I can befriend it. But until that point, until
Speaker 1: I'm looking for and open to it, I don't see it.
Speaker 2: Yep, I got to Yeah, yeah, thank You're right. It
Speaker 2: is both and so yes, I got it. Thank you
Speaker 2: for that quo clarification.
Speaker 1: I just thought of it.
Speaker 2: Now, when you recognize that that's a part of you,
Speaker 2: this part of me shows up, and this part of
Speaker 2: me is a lawyer, how does recognizing.
Speaker 1: That because I believe it's a great question. Actually I
Speaker 1: believe it's it's the condition part of me, but it's
Speaker 1: not me what I what I am is like as
Speaker 1: we talked about, is that the self of the capitalist
Speaker 1: are authentic self that has a way of being, and
Speaker 1: this is part of the smaller self, the conditioned ego
Speaker 1: that that plays a different role. And the condition ego
Speaker 1: isn't who I am, even though I may have tried
Speaker 1: to identify with it. It's not who I am. And
Speaker 1: it's very it's very malleable and very changeable, and you
Speaker 1: can certainly minimize the impact that has because it is
Speaker 1: a survival mechanism, not a thriving mechanism. That's why I
Speaker 1: say it's a part because it may no longer be needed,
Speaker 1: but it's actually not who I am.
Speaker 2: And I think that in both in our own individual
Speaker 2: awareness and then in our collective awareness. And when I
Speaker 2: say collective, I mean you and I. In this moment,
Speaker 2: when we can own that this is a part of me,
Speaker 2: we'll use the lawyer again. The lawyer is a part
Speaker 2: of me, but it isn't all of me, and its
Speaker 2: purpose here is a survival instinct, which means that I'm
Speaker 2: in distress. So when this part of me shows up
Speaker 2: that makes you want to run in the other direction,
Speaker 2: recognize that I am in distress, I'm not myself right now,
Speaker 2: and can you meet me in the distressed place instead
Speaker 2: of reacting to the protector itself? Yes, and that you know,
Speaker 2: we got to see how powerful that was in our interactions.
Speaker 2: And we meet each other in these places all the time,
Speaker 2: and we've done this work for a long time and
Speaker 2: we're still learning and growing in this work. The idea
Speaker 2: of for all of you listening to be able to
Speaker 2: recognize that if somebody you love, even if somebody you
Speaker 2: care about, is operating in ways that are not aligned
Speaker 2: with who you know them to be, then most likely
Speaker 2: their system is in distress and they're working to protect
Speaker 2: something that they don't know how to manage, or that
Speaker 2: they've learned how to manage by controlling their environment, or
Speaker 2: by pleasing, or by doing a number of other behaviors.
Speaker 2: But they're not doing it because they want to be.
Speaker 2: And when we can have compassion for each other in
Speaker 2: those moments, our conversations can change dramatically because if one
Speaker 2: person in a relationship is able to recognize that the
Speaker 2: other person has been triggered, then that person can hold
Speaker 2: a steady, heart centered space instead of one that also
Speaker 2: gets defended or wants to attack, and we can meet
Speaker 2: each other in a much different way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's, you know, in a sense what the
Speaker 1: and you alluded to it earlier. It's what the protector
Speaker 1: is doing, is protecting you from feeling the feelings associated
Speaker 1: with what's happening. Is it thinks that you can't survive it.
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, It doesn't differentiate between what's psychological and
Speaker 1: what's real. It just thinks you can't survive this. This
Speaker 1: is too much. So I'm going to come in here
Speaker 1: and I'm going to distance you from it and prevent
Speaker 1: you from having to feel those feelings. And he said,
Speaker 1: if you're part this, this is why it's such powerful
Speaker 1: partner work. Because as you're and your partner get to
Speaker 1: know each other and you recognize the protector comes up,
Speaker 1: and you don't get triggered by the protector, which is
Speaker 1: a big deal, then you can say, I'm here to
Speaker 1: feel these feelings with you. I am in our case,
Speaker 1: i am sensing your feeling must understood, misunderstood. Let's sit
Speaker 1: with this together. We don't need to run from it,
Speaker 1: and then the alchemy happens in there. And if we
Speaker 1: both get triggered, this is a real jaqueline I have.
Speaker 1: We we're pretty good at following, not all the times,
Speaker 1: but if we recognize we're both triggered, let's just stop
Speaker 1: the conversation and go somewhere else because it will never
Speaker 1: go anywhere productive.
Speaker 2: And then you come back. M So, just recognizing, just
Speaker 2: as an example before we end today, how does the
Speaker 2: protector show up for you? For Chris, it looks like
Speaker 2: a controller. For me, it looks like a people pleaser.
Speaker 2: For a dear friend of mine, it looks like perfectionism
Speaker 2: could look like the achiever, the achiever, a hero, all
Speaker 2: of them. How does it show up for you? And
Speaker 2: what would happen if you named it in relationship? And
Speaker 2: let us know if you play around with it, let
Speaker 2: us know what shows up. And please, if you do this,
Speaker 2: do your best to choose somebody feel safe to you
Speaker 2: so that you can explore this with curiosity.
Speaker 1: Perfect, and we'll see you in two weeks.
Speaker 2: All right, have a good one, everybody.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to me Chris.
Speaker 2: And me Jacqueline on break Free and Trust are Redesigned
Speaker 2: for living.
Speaker 1: Tune in every second and fourth Monday at three pm
Speaker 1: on Transformation Talk Radio for more real conversations about life, death,
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Speaker 2: Learn to connect with your intrinsic power to grow and heal,
Speaker 2: how to laugh at your own humanness and not take
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Speaker 1: Through healthy conversations between the feminine and the masculine, you
Speaker 1: will learn how to harness the power of relationship in
Speaker 1: the mirror, to befriend your shadow, and to trust that
Speaker 1: any obstacle that gets in your way is there to
Speaker 1: help you grow.
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