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See website for da. 28 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.040 Loop host. 29 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:20.239 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 30 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:23.359 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 31 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:30.719 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 32 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 33 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:39.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 34 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:51.400 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 35 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.680 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 36 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.680 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 37 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.920 History and the authors that have written about them. An 38 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.879 African American soldier returns home to New York City from 39 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.400 the Vietnam War in the late nineteen sixties is a 40 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:11.360 time of turbulence and change. Racism is very much alive 41 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:14.400 in America. Times are tough for a young black man 42 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:17.240 in America, especially one who has fought for his country 43 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.840 in an unpopular war. Rick Tally takes what he believes 44 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.879 the only economic road open to him, drug dealing. Prisoner 45 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.639 of Dreams presents a large cast of characters from small 46 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.120 times street hustlers and pimps to the Hollywood and Las 47 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:35.599 Vegas celebrities to organize crime figures in a point and 48 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.360 eye opening memoir. The author describes his life and times, 49 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:42.120 the good and the bad, in New York City and 50 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.199 Harlem during one of the most seminal periods in American history. 51 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:48.439 The book that we're featuring this sevening is Prisoner of Dreams, 52 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:51.960 Confessions of a Harlem Drug Dealer with my special guest, 53 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.560 author Rick Tally. Welcome to the program, and thank you 54 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:59.080 for agreeing to this interview. Rick Tally, How you doing. 55 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.400 I'm glad to beah. 56 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.719 Thank you very much for this opportunity to interview you. 57 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.240 It's congratulations on the book. Like I had mentioned earlier, 58 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.680 first off, this is a memoir, so it's a little 59 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.280 bit different for our audience. But again, you've just led 60 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:21.039 this incredible and fascinating life and you've certainly captured all 61 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:26.719 that fascinating aspects in this book. So let's start off, Rick, 62 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:28.639 why don't you tell us a little bit where you 63 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.759 grew up and tell us a little bit about your 64 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.599 early life and what really sort of molded you, and 65 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:39.599 then we'll talk about other things like the military and 66 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.960 basketball and prison and drug dealing. So first time, tell 67 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:46.240 us how you grew up and tell us a little 68 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:46.719 bit about that. 69 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.599 I grew up on the Upper the West side of Manhattan, 70 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.840 and I guess what they call it ghetto, but we 71 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:56.319 just called it our community. 72 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:57.960 I have a. 73 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.680 Normal upbringing with my three brothers and my one sister. 74 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.120 My father was absent, even though I saw him, you know, 75 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.680 he was doing what he did and he was into 76 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:13.680 the number game. And you know, I had a a 77 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.839 pretty basically a normal childhood. I didn't I wasn't a delinquen. 78 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.160 I wasn't playing hooky from school, you know, even though 79 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:24.959 I did play hooky every now and then. But basically 80 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.800 I went to school, worked after school, and like I said, 81 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.800 I had basically a normal upbringing, no different from any 82 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:33.920 of my other friends. 83 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:41.399 And uh, course this we're talking about, Uh, you were 84 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:44.319 in the Vietnam War. So tell us what happens. Uh 85 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.720 where were you in terms of age? And uh in 86 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.240 terms of finishing high school? Where were you when this 87 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.279 eve enlisted in the Vietnam War? How? How did this 88 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:56.040 tell us about that? Well? 89 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:58.360 I was that was the era where they still had 90 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:02.199 the draft. My draft was coming up the year that 91 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:04.360 I was supposed to finish high school. Right out of 92 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.480 high school, I was going into the service, which would 93 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.959 have been in the winter becoming winter. I didn't I 94 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.399 don't like cold weather. So I decided M of F 95 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.720 me and a friend of mine we pushed our draft 96 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.879 and we went in that May, and I actually finished 97 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:28.879 high school. In the service, I went to Vietnam. I 98 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:32.439 was in Vietnam nineteen sixty eight sixty nine, after year 99 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.319 the Tet Offensive. In fact, I was over there the 100 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:42.560 worst war year that the United States had in Vietnam. 101 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:49.079 And I was in the eleventh Armor Cave and Colonel Patten, 102 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:54.560 the son of the late General Patent, commanded the eleventh 103 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.759 Army Cave, which his father commanded in World War Two. 104 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.920 He wanted to make general, so he devised a new 105 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:07.040 war strategy for the Leventhoma calf And we went everywhere 106 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:12.000 there was a problem, the DMZ whole, Taming Trails or 107 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:20.079 Iron Triangle or may Con Delta, everywhere, and we stayed. 108 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.439 You go to the physic in the infantry, you go 109 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:28.560 out and you stay out, maybe anywhere from seven to 110 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.920 fourteen fifteen days. And the unit that I was in, 111 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.120 and then you get stay out seven fourteen fifteen days. 112 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.519 You come in, you stay in, three days, four days, 113 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.720 five days, you recoup, get amnence and everything. But the 114 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:47.160 way the Eleventhoma Calf operated, you go out, you stay 115 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.759 out ninety days, one hundred days, and then you come 116 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:57.519 in to clean up the vehicles and restock ammunition and 117 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.959 get a shower and relaxed for two days, and then 118 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.519 right back out into the jungle on search and destroy missions. 119 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.120 You know, In fact, we used to hunt them so 120 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.920 hard that we used to say, I wish we could 121 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.600 hurry up and find them so we could have a 122 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.519 firefight and take a break. 123 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.360 Yeah. Well, now, what did you feel? What was your 124 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.759 emotion about Vietnam itself before enlisting? And then maybe we 125 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:29.720 would talk about. 126 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.560 I think I have an opinion about Vietnam before I 127 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:37.160 went into the service. You know, I'd see the news 128 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:41.680 footage at six o'clock like everybody else did, but I 129 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.959 never formulated an opinion about it, and I never imagined 130 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.519 in a million years that I would actually be there. 131 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.279 Now, when you went there, of course, you're you're in 132 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.399 the infantry, like you say, you're in a battalion that's 133 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.759 a ninety yah hundred days, so you're seeing the worst 134 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.319 of the worst. What are we talking about? What kind 135 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.959 of horrors did you see? In Vietnam. 136 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.879 Well, you know, it's nothing like you've ever seen in 137 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.639 the movies. I I'll tell you that, and I'll give 138 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:19.319 you uh an example that I basically give to everyone. 139 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:25.879 Just imagine that you were standing up against the wall 140 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:35.519 and there were maybe a hundred men lined up and 141 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.440 all of them shooting at you with machine guns while 142 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:45.879 you're up against the wall. That's the barrage of bullets 143 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.480 that comes at you in a firefight, not to mention 144 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:54.440 the bombs, the rockets and whatever else they shoot at you. 145 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:02.720 And you get into a firefight, maybe you break camp 146 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:07.039 and you go out and search and destroy, maybe at 147 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.919 seven thirty in the morning. If you get ambushed or 148 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.440 you run into enemy forces within the hour or so 149 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:22.799 after you going out, depends upon how big the force is. 150 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:30.000 You eight nine, ten, twelve hours of go buy and 151 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.200 it seemed like it was only five or ten minutes. Well, 152 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.960 you know, and then you calling for air strikes. First 153 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.039 you get am buysch. The first thing you call force 154 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:47.240 artillery support. The next thing, the artillery stops because you 155 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.600 calling in the cobra gunships. Then after the cobra gunships, 156 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:57.399 you calling and the the phantom And depends upon where 157 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.360 you are, you might call in the battleship. It's if 158 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:05.120 you operating anywhere within the coastline where the battleship New 159 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:11.000 Jersey and the other fleet can support your firefight, you 160 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:15.559 calling in them so it you know, and after the 161 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.120 firefighters over, you get down on the ground and you 162 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.639 go in the bunkers and pull the bodies out and 163 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:28.039 search 'em looking for intelligence. And you know, sometimes you 164 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.679 a actually doing that. You might stack up a hundred, 165 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:36.559 two hundred, maybe three hundred bodies. Other times you maybe 166 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:40.399 only twenty or thirty bodies, because what they would do 167 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:45.240 is as they flee to the jungle, they take they 168 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.879 dead and they or they try to take their dead 169 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:51.279 and they wounded with 'em, so that you don't kill 170 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.759 a ac good body count. But if you look at 171 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.120 the size of the complex that you actually came upon 172 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:04.600 in the jungle, you can see that it's wasn't enough 173 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.120 to hold maybe three men. But and you see blood 174 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.919 trails and destroy bunkers all the way. You find a 175 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.360 arm head leg there. So you don't get a actual count. 176 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:21.080 You estimated by the size of the complex that you 177 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:25.440 ran into how many you actually killed. By the blood 178 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.559 trails or the body parts. And then there's other times 179 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:35.360 that you actually fin you know, finish the fire fight. 180 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.600 You might it might last. Let me let me give 181 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:41.879 you a little better example. You as I said, you 182 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.919 pull out, you get in the fight. It's maybe eight hours, 183 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:52.200 it feels like ten or fifteen minutes. But sometime the sports, 184 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:54.279 the size of the forces of the enemy that you 185 00:11:54.360 --> 00:12:00.639 run into is so big and so well equipped that 186 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:04.720 that eight hours will be twenty four hours. So when 187 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:10.559 nightfall you back off and form a circle and continue 188 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:13.440 to fight throughout the night, calling the helicopters. I'll tell it, 189 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:15.480 we' the same thing that you do in the daytime. 190 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:21.120 And then when daybreak comes, you pull back on line 191 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.519 and you push forward, trying to destroy they base camp. 192 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.639 Then if it's if it's the forces like I said, 193 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:34.320 well equipped, which would be the north Viard means army, 194 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:38.720 not the vig come, then you you fight. The hours 195 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.840 pass and if it night falls again, you form the 196 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:47.159 same circle and then you and then daybreak comes again, 197 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.960 you pull back on line and you push forward, and 198 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.240 you do that until you destroy it. And it's like 199 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.559 sometime the force is so big. I was in the 200 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.799 left of Army, Cap. I can remember running into the 201 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.759 North Vietnamese Army where the fight lasted seven or eight days, 202 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.679 and we would bring in on our flanks, the big 203 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.279 red one on one side and call the first caf 204 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:14.039 in on the other side, and then the artillery would 205 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:20.960 drop behind the base camp and so that they couldn't 206 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:26.480 run off. So it's it's a it's it's it's mind boss, 207 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:36.399 you know what war actually is. It's not it's just 208 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:39.320 beyond belief, you know. And like I said, I have 209 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:45.519 never seen a movie that has portrayed what a firefight 210 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:53.360 is really like in no shape, form or fashion, right, 211 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.480 you know. And I for my service, I rely, I have. 212 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.840 I got wounded twice. I have a bronze Star, have 213 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:06.600 silver star, have campaign ribbons, you know. So and it's 214 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:11.000 not that I was trying to be a hero. We 215 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.120 were just trying to stay alive. And you did what 216 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:15.159 you have to do to stay alive. 217 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:20.799 And sometimes how many years were you in the service and. 218 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:23.960 Three and a half years? 219 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:27.360 And psychologically, how did how did you fare out of that? 220 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:29.240 Do you see, like I said, you saw this carnage, 221 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:34.879 but you seem to be you know, psychologically, how did 222 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:36.639 you handle this three and a half years. What was. 223 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.679 One year? And let me show you the mindset of 224 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:49.279 the military at the time. I had maybe a year 225 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.000 in because I was on the All Army basketball team, 226 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.600 and when the season was over, that's when I went 227 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.399 to Vietnam. Stayed in Vietnam a year. When I came 228 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:05.159 back from Vietnam, I had I still had something. I 229 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.639 had maybe fourteen months for us to do. And when 230 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.840 I came back, they sent me to Ford Hlle, Texas 231 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:18.320 to train. Then they sent me through Fort Knox, Kentucky, 232 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:23.279 put me in another compact unit, and then charge and 233 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:30.759 informed us when we got there that we're there to 234 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:35.159 train other people to get him ready for Vietnam and 235 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:41.159 to stay ready for combat in case the country needs 236 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.320 us again. So when I came back, they didn't train 237 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:49.600 me and the others like myself to go out and 238 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.879 become productive citizens. They trained us how to continue killing. 239 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.759 And then this charged us from the service. 240 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:08.600 Right, And so what did you do immediately after getting 241 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.559 out of the service. You have this basketball career. Let's 242 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.440 talk about a little bit about that. You were, uh, 243 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.799 you played pro ball, But what was the at the time, 244 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.840 like seventeen eighteen years old. 245 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:26.240 What was your well, when I played, like I said, 246 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.120 I played, I played. I played on an all army team. 247 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:33.919 When I came back, you know, I didn't play basketball 248 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:41.679 for a while because I didn't I just didn't see it, 249 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:46.919 you know, I didn't even play recreational really, you know, 250 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.720 and it took it took a little while for me 251 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.440 to start playing ball again. And then once I started 252 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.360 playing again, you know, it just all it all came 253 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:00.279 back college basketball, playing the pros here to me pros here, 254 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:05.119 and so forth, and so on, going into different NBA camps, 255 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:11.480 you know, with playing with them. So basketball was basketball 256 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.920 was just something. Once I became good at I was 257 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.480 great at it, So I wasn't you know, I didn't 258 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.200 have to practice all the time to improve or I 259 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.960 didn't have to do this. Well, you know, I'd get 260 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:28.880 to be out of shape because I wouldn't play for 261 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.799 six or seven months, and then I'd get a call, Yo, 262 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.920 we wanted to play here. I worked out for two 263 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.799 weeks and then I'd go play wherever they wanted me 264 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.480 to play, and I'd be at the top of my 265 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:47.559 game with whoever I played with. And I played with everybody, 266 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:53.680 everybody who was at my age. Then who you know, 267 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.799 guys in the NBA Archie ball everybody you know? I 268 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:58.680 played with them all. 269 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.599 So y did you haven't what were your prospects for 270 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.960 being NBA and and where and when did this idea 271 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.039 of drug dealing come into to play? I mean, it's 272 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.400 it seems out of sort out of character. Uh, you 273 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.680 really have a drug problem when you're a teenager. I 274 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:24.000 know from the book that you weren't doing drugs to 275 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.279 psychologically handle being in the in the in the milingy. 276 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.319 No, you know that was that was never a prop 277 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:36.160 I you know, it was a job opportunity and nothing 278 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.920 more than the job opportunity. It was a way for 279 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.440 me to take care of myself. It was a way 280 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:46.839 for me to earn a living. So my adventure into 281 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:49.279 the drug games came because a friend of mine kept 282 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.000 saying we could make a lot of money, We could 283 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:55.960 make a lot of money. And I had just about 284 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.000 ran out of the money that I had saved up 285 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:04.680 from the service, and I didn't have any employment prospects 286 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.799 in the so called legitimate world because the jobs that 287 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:13.559 I was being offered as a returning Vietnam War veteran 288 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:20.039 were dishwashing parking cars. Take this ninety dollars a week. 289 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:24.960 And that's how you know this is you know, you 290 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.440 don't know how they do anything. The service didn't teach 291 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.680 you anything but how to be a killer. So the 292 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:36.039 best we can do for you at the New York 293 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:40.200 State Employment Agency is offer you a job as a 294 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:45.440 dishwasher or a parking attendant in some garage at one 295 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.599 hundred and ten dollars a week. So I took the 296 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.079 last of the money that I had and I partnered 297 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:56.279 off with a friend of mine, and that's how I 298 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.480 ventured into the drug game. And the amount of money 299 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:11.640 that I invested to become a drug dealer quote unquote, 300 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.279 nobody you know, believed that I took that meet not me, 301 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.680 but me and my partner took that small amount of 302 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:26.599 money and did what we did with it, you know, 303 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:32.039 because we started out with ninety dollars, which brought us 304 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:35.839 sixty five dollars worth of drugs, the bags we needed, 305 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.400 the tape and rubber bands that we needed to bag 306 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.599 that sixty five dollars with of drugs up. And that 307 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:50.440 was in July, and by August we were making ten 308 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:54.200 thousand dollars every other day. 309 00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:01.759 And it now s sorry, go ahead and we and 310 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:03.880 it just mushroom from there. You know. 311 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:09.799 I got with a good crew, you know, and it 312 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:10.400 took off. 313 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.599 Get you know. The main reason for your success, you 314 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:17.960 and your partner, though, is that you weren't like a 315 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.200 typical guy that would take a little bit of uh 316 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:25.079 of heroin like that. And there's no way that uh 317 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:29.359 the amount that they used could ever defray the cost 318 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.640 of uh of dealing so y at that small amount. 319 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.519 So that's the big advantage you had. You made the 320 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.960 clear decision you weren't gonna be doing any heroin. You 321 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.400 weren't interested in doing any of that product. You were 322 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:41.960 interested in selling it, right, No. 323 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:47.839 It was this business y it it brought him money. 324 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.480 And the guy that I partnered with, he used but 325 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:58.079 once he saw that, hey, you know, this is what 326 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.000 we wanna do good money, he stopped. 327 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:05.920 Views. Now, you didn't initially say yeah, I want a 328 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.559 drug deal. I want to, I want to I want 329 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.599 to sell some heroin. I want to I want to 330 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:12.759 sell some drugs. Especially when you got out of the service. 331 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.920 What was it like getting out of the service in 332 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.039 nineteen sixty nine and coming to New York City, How 333 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:23.240 it things changed. I mean, I know you were only 334 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:30.279 in Vietnam for a year, but after you were discharged 335 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.920 from the military, we are resentful thinking geez man, I 336 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.799 wasn't prepared for anything, and now look what I've done 337 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:39.839 the service. I've been a brave guy. I've been in 338 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:43.960 the military. Is that why you had maybe you had 339 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:47.839 qualms about doing something like this like selling heroin? Did 340 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:49.200 you have any qualms at all? 341 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.079 Or it was I didn't. I have no qualms whatsoever 342 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.480 about doing what I did. It was an opportunity for 343 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:03.440 me to earn a living. It's a business. It's not 344 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.359 about saying this is what I do. World, look at me. 345 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.160 I'm a drug dealer. It was never about that. It 346 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:19.039 was always a business decision. Enter into this to earn 347 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.799 a living, a good living. 348 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.039 Bottom line is there, but there is there no qualms 349 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.920 like I mean, not qualms, but considerations like not everybody 350 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.720 you know and not everybody in your entire family. Can 351 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:36.559 you go to and say, listen, I made a decision 352 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.680 to sell some heroin and everybody's gonna hug you. 353 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.759 I mean, well, first of all, you know, it's a 354 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:47.440 secret society. See that's that's the misunderstanding. That you don't 355 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.839 broadcast this is what I decided to do. You do 356 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:57.400 it in total secretsy See, that's the misconception that you know, 357 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.839 and I can understand because you see get into movies 358 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:05.680 and you see it on television. There's people in my 359 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.440 family who never knew what I did, to include my mother, 360 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:17.920 never ever told 'em anything mm about me doing this 361 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.160 one to protect them to they could never be put 362 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.319 in a position to do me no harm by saying 363 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:35.839 something that they shouldn't. So it wasn't me telling this 364 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.960 person this is what I'm gonna do. Telling this person 365 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:43.799 it was on a need to know basis. If you 366 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.720 needed to know what I was doing, then you were 367 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:52.200 a part of what I was doing and not privy 368 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:56.799 to everything I was doing, but only what your involvement 369 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.640 with what I was doing. Bottom line, it's I you know, 370 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:06.799 like it's a it's a very very very big misconception. 371 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:15.079 And what we did could never happen again. It'll never 372 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:20.960 be the way it was at the time that we 373 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.119 were doing what we did. 374 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.480 Why is that? What's what's what's different about? I Mean, 375 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.359 there's obviously huge differences, but what was the main difference 376 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:31.319 that you say that it would never ever happen like that. 377 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.160 Again, Well, first of all, the biggest drug dealers in 378 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:38.079 the world are firesing right now. You know, those are 379 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:43.799 the those are the drug kingpins right now. And the 380 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:47.400 way it breaks down to the streets at this day 381 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.160 and age, the money's not the same. It's not it's 382 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.920 n it's not cruel, uh, it's it's it's just scattered. 383 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.160 Everything is just scattered. Then while we were doing it, 384 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:10.440 it was all very much organized crews and everybody knew 385 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:14.920 everybody and not just in New York and California, detroited 386 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:20.880 to call. You know, New York was drug capital of 387 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:27.119 the world. If you wanted to sell drugs anywhere, you 388 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:30.880 had to come to New York and the f And 389 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:39.000 if you won't equate it to the mafia. That's how 390 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:45.200 it was. Not families cause like they say, families, Gambino 391 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:47.759 and Genevisa, so forth and so forth. And it was 392 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:56.640 only five of them. It's this crew here, this crew here, 393 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:01.000 this crew here, and you know the name Pee Wee Kirker, 394 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:08.599 New York, Freddie Myers, Frank Matthews, Nicky Bond, Jesse Gray 395 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:10.680 and you know, I don't even want to mention Nicky 396 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:14.839 Bonds and Frank Lucas's name in the same breath that 397 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:20.599 I'm mentioning these other gentlemen. But that's how it was, 398 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:26.279 and the tentacles reached from New York across the United 399 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:27.559 States into England. 400 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.000 Now, how long was it before, like you you say, 401 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.920