1 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,359 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the 2 00:00:39,399 --> 00:00:43,840 episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond 3 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,600 the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to 4 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,280 explain something right now. If you support me through substack 5 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,960 or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that 6 00:00:57,039 --> 00:01:01,520 you can plug into any podcatcher in Apple and you'll 7 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,480 be able to listen to the episodes through there. If 8 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,400 you support me through subscribe, star gum Road or on 9 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:12,000 my website directly, I will send you a link where 10 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,359 you can download the file and you can listen to 11 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,719 it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support 12 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,040 everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It allows 13 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,239 me to basically put out an episode every day now, 14 00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:28,359 and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate. 15 00:01:28,879 --> 00:01:31,079 I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two 16 00:01:31,879 --> 00:01:37,319 even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without you, 17 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,159 So thank you for the support. Head on over to 18 00:01:40,159 --> 00:01:44,439 Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and 19 00:01:44,519 --> 00:01:49,319 do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone 20 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:52,760 back to the Peking Yana Show. Paul fahrenheits back and 21 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:56,000 we are going to continue the Spain series. How are 22 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:56,519 you doing, Paul. 23 00:01:57,359 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: I'm doing very well, mister Pete. Thank you again for 24 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:03,239 having back. I know it's been a while since we 25 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:05,879 have done an episode of the Spain series, but I've 26 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,360 been busy, You've been busy. It's been the holiday season, 27 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,960 and it's been a very interesting couple of months. 28 00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, very interesting and strangely calm couple of months. 29 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. 30 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about them Italians. 31 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Italian Wars. So the next episode of the 32 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,680 Spanish series, we're going to be talking about the Italian Wars, 33 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,719 which is so first and foremost. I'm gonna let all 34 00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:42,240 of your readers, readership, listenership know that this is not 35 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:44,719 going to be a history of the Italian Wars. That's 36 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:46,520 not what this series is. It's a history of the 37 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,360 Spanish Empire, but it's it's from a certain perspective. I 38 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,000 am not here to give you a play by play 39 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,840 of the Italian Wars. Rather, I would recommend you all 40 00:02:55,879 --> 00:03:03,479 go watch Apostolic Majesty's eight hour plus maybe exaggerating a 41 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,479 little bit, but very long coverage of the Italian Wars, 42 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:11,000 of the surrounding Habsburgs, of their policy objectives, of the 43 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,240 Kingdom of France, of all this other stuff. This rather 44 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,680 remember the point of this series is world systems theory, 45 00:03:19,159 --> 00:03:21,000 all right, that is the point of this And we're 46 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,080 looking at the Christendom world system, and specifically, mister pet 47 00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:27,759 the series through the you know, Spain is the key 48 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,520 to the latter part of the of the Christendom world system. 49 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,479 And what we're looking at is the decline and breakdown 50 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,240 of the Christendom world system, which coincides with the rise 51 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,919 of the Spanish Empire. And one of those things that 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,960 we're going to be looking at today is the Italian Wars. Now, 53 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,639 what were the Italian Wars? Well, they were called the 54 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,319 Italian Wars because there was like eight of them, you know, 55 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,879 eight different ones, and they all happened like two years, 56 00:03:56,919 --> 00:04:02,879 four years apart, stretching between fourteen ninety four and fifteen 57 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:06,400 fifty nine. Some people even argue that, you know, some 58 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,759 people would even include the a lot of the smaller 59 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,759 wars on the Italian Peninsula previous to fourteen ninety four 60 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:16,360 as a part of the Italian Wars. And some people 61 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:22,399 argue that the Italian Wars never really ended after the 62 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:30,120 end of them in fifteen fifty nine, but I will 63 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:37,040 give the viewership, the listenership the broad strokes. So the 64 00:04:37,079 --> 00:04:40,279 Italian Wars are called such because they largely took place 65 00:04:40,399 --> 00:04:42,639 in Italy. They didn't only take place in Italy. They 66 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,720 kind of spilled out into wider Europe, but primarily they 67 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:49,160 took place in Italy, and primarily in Italy. It took 68 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:56,879 place in northern Italy, all right. And there were two 69 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:02,360 ish three broadsides depending on Yeah, there were about three sides, 70 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:06,399 all right. And what this demonstrates, what these three sides 71 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,439 kind of represent are the differing ideas that are starting 72 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,920 to come into place in the Christendom world system, especially 73 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,680 towards its end. We've talked before, mister Pete about the 74 00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:22,480 rivalry between France and the Habsburgs, which Spain kind of 75 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,639 gets subsumed into. And this is the unfortunate thing about 76 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,959 doing a history of the Spanish Empire, because the longer 77 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,040 you analyze it, Spain was in fact the foremost power 78 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,480 in Europe at the time. It was the strongest by 79 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:43,199 far in both economy and military, and it was infiltrated 80 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:49,079 and occupied by a foreign cosmopolitan elite and utilized to 81 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,519 further that cosmopolitan elites political agenda rather than a Spanish 82 00:05:53,600 --> 00:06:01,800 national political agenda. Please stop me if this sounds familiar. Now, 83 00:06:01,879 --> 00:06:05,399 It wasn't entirely that, you know, there was you know 84 00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:10,000 that the Spaniards weren't entirely powerless. But and I may 85 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,560 be exaggerating a little bit, but the Kingdom of Spain, 86 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:19,079 especially once the Habsburgs come into power, really does walk 87 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,000 the line of a independent sovereign nation with a Habsburg 88 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:30,519 king and a Habsburg fiefdom subordinate to continental Habsburg policy. 89 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:33,920 And the Spanish and the Italian Wars actually kind of 90 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,959 exemplify that that sort of transition because the Italian Wars, 91 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:44,519 Spanish involvement in the Italian Wars actually pre dates Habsburg 92 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:50,120 rule because Spain, before it was even Spain, the unified 93 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:57,120 kingdoms of Aragon and Castile had Italian provinces. Aragon was 94 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,720 an outside part. So so let me. I'm getting a little 95 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,160 b ahead of myself, So first let me, and by 96 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,959 the way, stop me at any time if you have 97 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,879 any questions or you want to add something, I will. 98 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:13,879 So in order for me to explain why the Italian 99 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:17,319 Wars occurred, I must first explain what Italy is at 100 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:24,319 this time, Italy, the Italian Peninsula is at this time 101 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,199 the richest part of Europe. It is the most well developed, 102 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,040 It is the cleanest, it is the most modern. 103 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: All right. 104 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,959 Speaker 2: The Italian Peninsula has been the beneficiary of Mediterranean trade 105 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,680 for the past several hundred years. This trade largely flows 106 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,920 into you know. In addition, the Italian Peninsula is not 107 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:50,040 a unified country. It's not even a sort of federation 108 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,120 of feudal provinces like the Holy Roman Empire is, or 109 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,480 England is, or France at this time, because France is 110 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:03,120 a national concept isn't as solidified yet, or Spain is. 111 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,920 Italy is just a whole bunch of different principalities that 112 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:14,519 don't even pretend to have unity with each other. Now, 113 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,199 nominally Northern Italy what we called it, you know, going 114 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:28,000 down to not Rome, but Northern Italy nominally is a 115 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,759 part of the Holy Roman Empire. And the Holy Roman 116 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:33,320 Empire even claims Rome. It does not claim Naples, it 117 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,440 does not claim Southern Italy. That has always been and 118 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,320 everyone knows this has always been a historically distinct part 119 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,279 of Italy. Naples and Southern Italy. Northern Italy has in 120 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,360 the past the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburg's hold 121 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:54,960 on Italy was a lot more decisive and strong. But now, 122 00:08:55,039 --> 00:08:57,360 especially with all this wealth that's flowing into Italy, and 123 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,440 I'll tell that, I'll tell your listeners why in a minute, 124 00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:05,919 that is no longer the case. So Italy is kind 125 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,440 of an an caps paradise at this time. It is 126 00:09:08,519 --> 00:09:12,120 a smattering of ten thousand city states. Some of them 127 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,360 are duchies, some of them are republics, some of them 128 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:19,200 are somewhere in between. In the middle of them, you 129 00:09:19,279 --> 00:09:23,480 have the papal states, which is a geopolitical entity that 130 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,960 is under the authority of the Pope, who also we've 131 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,399 talked about that before, who also claim spiritual authority over 132 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,679 all Christendom. And the temporal role of the pope is 133 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,039 something that's actually going to play into the Italian Wars 134 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:40,919 because there's a disagreement as to what role the pope 135 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,559 has to play, and the Pope himself has an opinion 136 00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:48,159 that is actually at odds with the two major players here, 137 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:57,720 which are the Habsburgs and the French. So anyway, besides that, 138 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,080 the reason that Italy is so wealthy, or at least 139 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,600 one of the many reasons, is like I said, they 140 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,320 were the sort of the gateway of you know, prior 141 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:14,600 to the Ottomans conquering Constantinople in fourteen fifty three, the 142 00:10:14,639 --> 00:10:18,559 Byzantine Empire was the terminus of the Silk Road, which 143 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,159 brought all kinds of commodities from Asia that Europe could 144 00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:27,200 not produce. And not just Asia. I mean, I say Asia. 145 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:33,320 You know people think of China, but really Central Asia, India, Iran, Anatolia, 146 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,960 the Slavic countries, all of them flow into Europe largely 147 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:43,600 through the Mediterranean Sea, and Italy and the Italian city states, 148 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:50,960 particularly the merchant republics of Venice, Genoa, Pisa, and there 149 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:56,200 was a fourth one. It's not Naples, it was. It 150 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,600 was in southern Italy though, and it's like a blue 151 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:00,799 background with a white cross. Get the name of it. 152 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,559 But there were a variety I might remember it at 153 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,159 some point, but there were a variety of Italian merchant republics, 154 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:11,720 and there were some more minor ones too. There was Siena, 155 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:17,480 there there were a lot of and a bunch of 156 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:23,120 other minor cities. And these all have basically their own 157 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,519 privately funded trade fleets. They have kind of trade out 158 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:31,840 posts or an early nascent version of colonialism. The Mediterranean 159 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,639 has all of these like little islands scattered throughout them, 160 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,559 So that's part of the reason why trade. Not only 161 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:43,120 is the Mediterranean sort of self contained c that isn't 162 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,000 very far to go anywhere, it also has all of 163 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:48,159 these very convenient rest stops in it with these little islands. 164 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,279 So this is what makes the Mediterranean such a trade center, 165 00:11:53,879 --> 00:11:56,320 not only because of the inertia that's behind it, but 166 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,559 because it's geographically very easy to trade in the Mediterranean. 167 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,960 You know, you can take a ship from Venice and 168 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,600 you have fifteen possible stops, it's very unlikely you're going 169 00:12:08,639 --> 00:12:12,679 to lose that ship. That the seas are very calm generally, 170 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,639 and everything is close enough to each other that trade 171 00:12:17,639 --> 00:12:25,200 is very salubrious. But an early nascent version of colonialism 172 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,080 is these some of these Italian city states gobbling up 173 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,480 these little islands and little pieces of coastline throughout the 174 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,960 Mediterranean to make its trading easier, basically giving them a 175 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,519 whole bunch of rest stops so they can have really 176 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:42,720 reliable trade routes. Portugal would later replicate this, and this 177 00:12:42,759 --> 00:12:46,039 is how Portugal was able to get around Africa so 178 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:48,960 quickly was it. It kind of took from the Italian's 179 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,879 playbook and establishing their Fae torahs along the African coast. 180 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,600 But when the Ottomans conquered Constantinople in fourteen fifty three, 181 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,399 what they did was they banned you know, this was 182 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:09,399 partially a religious move, partially a cynical economic one. They 183 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,960 banned all export of Asian commodities into Western Europe as 184 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,440 a part of their jihad against Western Europe. And so 185 00:13:21,919 --> 00:13:25,000 who was the only one who could secure alternate routes 186 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,639 the Italian cities. This is why Spain and Portugal started 187 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:31,759 going exploring in the first place. Was they wanted to 188 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:36,279 find a different source of those East Asian and Indian 189 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,559 commodities that the Ottomans had blocked off. But the Italians 190 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,960 had to help fill in the gap, and they did 191 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,360 so by sailing all around the Mediterranean, sailing all around 192 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:55,879 the Black Sea, going to Georgia, going to the Southern Levant, 193 00:13:55,919 --> 00:13:58,320 going to other places where the Ottomans didn't have dominion 194 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:04,039 over yet and attempting to do business there. In addition, 195 00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:12,320 the Italian Renaissance which have been going on led to 196 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,080 advances in lots of domestic economic technology, most notably the 197 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:23,480 Florentines figuring out double entry bookkeeping, which I'm going to 198 00:14:23,559 --> 00:14:26,559 be honest with you, mister Pete, is probably one of 199 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,080 the best inventions for white guys. Ever. I don't know 200 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,080 if you've ever had to balance a balance sheet in 201 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,840 your life, but the first time that you see that 202 00:14:36,759 --> 00:14:42,360 total assets and total liabilities plus equity number match and 203 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,600 the whole spreadsheet just balances, it's like you're chasing that 204 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,240 high for the rest of your life. If it makes sense. 205 00:14:51,879 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, being old enough to have done it on paper, yes. 206 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,559 Speaker 2: It's frigging great and I can understand why thes liked 207 00:15:00,559 --> 00:15:03,519 it so much. But this causes lots of innovation in 208 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,279 banking and it. You know, there's also different economic theories. 209 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,120 You know. The wealth is starting to be seen less 210 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,960 as a horder mindset in the Italian Peninsula, and this 211 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,000 is why the Italians were able to develop earlier than 212 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,840 a lot of other places, was that the psychic concept 213 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:28,120 of wealth in the mind of Europeans changed, right. Wealth 214 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,159 was no longer seen as a sort of fixed horde 215 00:15:33,159 --> 00:15:37,679 that everyone is kind of competing for. Rather, wealth started 216 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,320 to be seen as something that you could invest in 217 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,480 turn into capital that you could put into productive enterprises 218 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,279 that you could use to to you know, beyond financing 219 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,240 trade missions, beyond you know, buying gold coins, beyond building 220 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,960 up an army to take more land. And part of 221 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,519 this too was the decline of feudalism, because the reason 222 00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:01,679 that in the Middle Ages a lot of Europeans didn't 223 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:09,399 fight over money, they fought over land is that in 224 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,000 a society where you know, agricultural production is is basically money, 225 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,000 which is what a feudalist, a feudal, feudal society was 226 00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:21,440 closer to money is kind of secondary. It's the land 227 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:25,080 and the land production value that is what's important that 228 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,000 people are fighting over. But now as the Italians are demonstrating, 229 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,679 particularly with very small geographic areas comparatively, a lot of 230 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,519 these cities did not have a lot of territory around them, 231 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,519 they're demonstrating the power of basically taking in the capital 232 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,840 from the rest of Europe and reinvesting them into their 233 00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:53,720 own cities. Right. So this is why Italy is important. 234 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:57,799 Italy is important to a lot of the larger European 235 00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:07,359 powers because of historical claims, desire for expansion, personal grudges, 236 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,880 all of these lovely things that cause wars and strife 237 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,480 of various sorts. First, I will be talking about France. 238 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,839 So France at this time is under the Capecian House 239 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,480 of Valois. All right, I'm not going to get into 240 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,000 French dynastic politics, but suffice it to say the House 241 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:31,279 of Capet is the is the grand house, and there's 242 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,559 various sub cadet branches of it, the House of Anjou, 243 00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:40,880 the House of Valois, the House of Burgundy was one, 244 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,640 the House of Friggin Bourbon, the later House of Bourbon, 245 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,160 which was the last royal dynasty of France, was a 246 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,680 Capecian dynasty, a Capecian cadet branch, that is, and it's 247 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,640 it's it's split out in various places. But the House 248 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,440 of Anjous is no longer in does no longer rules 249 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,200 the Kingdom of France, but it does rule a minor 250 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,000 county in the south of France on the border of 251 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,559 Italy called Provence. Why is Provence interesting, Well, if you'll 252 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:14,160 remember our Western schism episode that we did, was that 253 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,039 the last one? I think that was the last one, 254 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:24,519 the previous one. Provence is where Avignon is. Avignon is 255 00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:28,880 where the I don't want to say the French papacy, 256 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:35,000 but the Avignon papacy sat during the Western Schism. And 257 00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:43,559 so when the Valois king of France inherits Provence from 258 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:46,799 I think it was Charles of Anjou, I think that 259 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,519 was his name. The people aren't so much important in 260 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:52,200 this that the individual rulers aren't so much important here. 261 00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:59,519 This places the Kingdom of France in a very salubrious 262 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,920 good position to start looking at getting some Italian provinces, 263 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,559 getting some of that Italian wealth to enter into the 264 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,079 Kingdom of France. In addition, there were historic French claims 265 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,519 to the Kingdom of Naples because the Kingdom of Naples, 266 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:20,880 part of their symbol is the French of Fleur de Lis, 267 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,400 because the House of Aange, you ruled the Kingdom of 268 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,119 Naples for a very long time, and even all the 269 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,880 way back to the Norman conquest. Naples as a concept 270 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:41,200 was founded by Norman knights from France. On the other side, 271 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,400 all right, on the other side of this, you have 272 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:49,480 the Habsburg interests in Spain, and this is not in Spain, 273 00:19:49,519 --> 00:19:51,920 in Italy. Sorry, I'll talk about Spain in a minute, 274 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,400 because Spain actually has separate interests in Italy from the Habsburgs, 275 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,240 because at this time Spain is not under Habsburg dominion. 276 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:02,680 It is still under the control of Isabella and Ferdinand. 277 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,319 The Habsburgs are the new imperial dynasty. They are in 278 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,400 charge of the Holy Roman Empire and Northern Italy. These 279 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:20,160 were the pretty much the entirety of these very rich 280 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:27,599 city states, these rich duchies, you know, very whatever, whatever 281 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,440 the specific political name they give themselves, are nominally a 282 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:40,279 part of the Holy Roman Empire. And now I say 283 00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:43,720 nominally because, like I said earlier, the Habsburg grip on 284 00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:47,880 these territories is very much slipping. Because these Italian states 285 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,359 are you know, they're they're the richest place in Europe. 286 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,400 They're the best developed and they've got some of the 287 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,160 some of the best economic technology anywhere to be found. 288 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,000 The problem is is that they do not have the 289 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,680 land and agricultural bases to support large standing or not 290 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:08,680 standing army. That's a little bit further in the future, 291 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,319 although that develops because of the Italian Wars. Rather, they 292 00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:18,400 can't muster large feudal levees, peasant levees, which is what 293 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,960 the basis of military power in Western Europe. At the 294 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,720 time is built on the back of this is why 295 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:27,000 agriculture is that one of the big reasons why agriculture 296 00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:30,359 kind of was the cornerstone of feudal Europe because it 297 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,079 dictated how many men at arms you could put into 298 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,640 the field. And the Italians, though they're extremely cash rich, 299 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,559 are extremely asset poor in the sense of assets being land. 300 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,839 On the other hand, the French, the Habsburgs, the Spanish 301 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,359 are very asset rich, but they're very cash poor. They 302 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:59,440 don't have the money the gold, and at this time 303 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,240 money and gold was still more or less synonymous. The 304 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Spanish hadn't yet tested that theory of how far you 305 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,359 can push that gold was. There was actually a gold 306 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,759 shortage in Europe at the time, so gold and silver 307 00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:20,440 were very much still considered a rare enough commodity that 308 00:22:20,519 --> 00:22:25,960 people could more or less universally accept it as money. 309 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,880 So in a battle between in a military battle between 310 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,000 cash and assets, rather the assets usually went in the 311 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:38,880 long run. Because the Italian city states, in terms of 312 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,000 military strength, could not rely on their own domestic populaces, 313 00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:47,559 they had to rely on a very particular type of 314 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:53,160 mercenaries called condottieri. I don't speak Italian. But basically it 315 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,519 literally means I think contractor is what it means. And 316 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,599 you know, there's lots of stories about Condottieri's you know, 317 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,519 they were you know, Machiavelli was one. There were these 318 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,519 roving bands of professional soldiers from a lot of them 319 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:09,119 were from Italy, a lot of them were for all 320 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,599 over Europe. And they would just go around make deals 321 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,759 with the city state to go bully another city state. 322 00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:16,319 But a lot of the time they would go to 323 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,880 the other city state and say, hey, this city state 324 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,720 said they'd pay us this much to bullyu. How much 325 00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:23,359 will you pay us? And then back and forth, and 326 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,599 you know, sometimes cities would hire Condottieri to fight each other, 327 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:29,599 but the Condatieri would may in the middle of the 328 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,880 battle make a deal and go sack one city and 329 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,720 sometimes go sack the other. And this is the thing, 330 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:40,799 this is, you know, this is the background where Machiavelli 331 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:43,640 and makes makes the assertion in his book The Prints 332 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,960 that you know, you can't rely on mercenaries. And this 333 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,599 was in a very specific environment in Italy where these 334 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,839 Italian states could not furnish their own armies except for Naples. 335 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:01,319 Except for Naples, Naples is the exception, because they had 336 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,160 and you know, Venice to a certain extent, you know, Milan. 337 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:07,359 Some of the bigger states could furnish some standing armies. 338 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,920 The smaller ones couldn't, but Naples very much could. Anyway, 339 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:21,400 Besides that, Spain moving over to Spain. Spain has interests 340 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,599 in the Italian Peninsula, mostly through its constituent Kingdom of Aragon. 341 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,880 The Kingdom of Aragon was an outside player in this 342 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,680 Mediterranean trade game because Aragon is the part of Spain 343 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,759 that faces inward of the Mediterranean. It's where Barcelona and 344 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,440 Valencia and some other cities are, and these also got 345 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:45,240 very rich off of Mediterranean trade, not the least of 346 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:49,839 which because the Kingdom of Aragon possessed the overseas territories 347 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,160 of the Balaric Islands, Sardinia and Sicily itself, as well 348 00:24:54,200 --> 00:25:00,000 as the Kingdom of Naples for a time under that 349 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,400 House of Trastamara, which we talked about, I think in 350 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:09,839 the first couple of episodes. And so Aragon was a huge, 351 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:16,839 outsized influential player in Italian politics. It was Alexander the 352 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,480 sixth that one pope everyone talks about, the you know, 353 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:22,559 the the one that was heinously evil and has all 354 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:25,319 those you know things of accusations of incests and stuff 355 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:31,640 like that about him. Well, his family, the Borgias, were 356 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,839 from Aragon. They were not Italian, they were Spanish. And 357 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,880 this is one of the actually the polemic lines that 358 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:46,240 people took against him. So the Spanish are interested in 359 00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:50,799 the Italian peninsula mostly the union of the Iberian Union 360 00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:57,599 between Castile and Aragon inherits Aragons and Aragon actually tried 361 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,440 to was in a lot of for a certain time, 362 00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:08,000 Aragon was the strongest naval power other than other than Venice, 363 00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:10,000 it was the strongest naval power in the Mediterranean, and 364 00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:13,640 it tried to implement a one of the first instances 365 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,000 of international law. A It tried to implement a sort 366 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:23,200 of how should I say, international maritime law. I forget 367 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,400 I think it was the Codex, the Codex Marinus or 368 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,680 something like that. I don't remember the exact name, but 369 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,039 it was specifically, they tried to implement an international maritime 370 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,880 law that all powers of the Mediterranean were a party two. 371 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,039 And now they didn't have enough strength to pull that off. 372 00:26:39,079 --> 00:26:41,680 But you know, this kind of tells you that the 373 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:48,920 idea of universalism is not new at all. I digress. 374 00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:57,559 So this is is I'd beloath to mention the Ottomans, 375 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,640 this huge is law threat from the East, who have 376 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:07,440 all of these you know, these Asian commodities backing them. 377 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,960 They have this this brand new technology, They've got this 378 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,640 great leadership. The Ottomans are starting to knock at the door, 379 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:23,559 and these European polities Habsburg Austria very specifically feels very 380 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,920 very anxious about this Ottoman neighbor and they want to 381 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,279 secure some you know, enough of a power base, enough 382 00:27:31,319 --> 00:27:34,359 of a money base that they can fund these wars 383 00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:37,960 against the Ottomans, because wars, especially at this time, one 384 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,240 of the I mean, mister Peter, I know you did 385 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:45,240 an episode recently talking about how Spedley Butler's War as 386 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:48,759 a racket is is the stupidest thing ever written. And 387 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:55,440 war makes very few people money? Am I getting that right? Yeah? 388 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,039 Speaker 1: I mean there are people who are going to benefit 389 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,240 from it, But you know that was me, that was 390 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,920 Stormy and I and even Thomas says, nobody wants nobody 391 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,400 wants war because yeah, sure some people are going to 392 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,640 benefit from it, But to think that people are just 393 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:15,240 going to war to make money that's retarded. It's normally 394 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,880 people decide to go to war and then the people 395 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,880 who are going to come in and profiteer off of it. 396 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:22,599 That's a secondary action. 397 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:26,079 Speaker 2: And you know, and for a war of like territorial expansion, 398 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,480 there may be this idea that the long term benefit 399 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:33,920 of the of the gained territory will outweigh the short 400 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,640 term expense of the war. There may be some of that. 401 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,079 I'm not going to say there's zero of that. But 402 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,640 war is expensive, especially at this time. War is extremely expensive. 403 00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:49,359 You know, the amount of the amount of money you 404 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,960 need to levy in loans, the amount of in a 405 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,880 lot of instances, you have to divest capital, you have 406 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,200 to divest your asset. A lot of times you have 407 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,359 to divest assets that you've taken loans against. And this 408 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:14,279 was true for European monarchs and principalities in the fifteenth, sixteenth, 409 00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:18,200 and seventeenth centuries, as true as it is today. This 410 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:21,799 is one of the things why I'm a short break here. 411 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,519 This is why I'm so glad we're doing this series, 412 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,000 is because I hope it's apparent to your readers, but 413 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:35,119 this the current era that we live in is closer 414 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,599 to the fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth centuries than it is 415 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,599 to the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth centuries. And that is 416 00:29:43,599 --> 00:29:46,079 what's throwing so many people for the loop, because we 417 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,759 have the twentieth century right before us, and we think that, oh, 418 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:52,559 because it's chronologically closer, it has more to do with 419 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:54,759 our lives. No, the twentieth century has more in common 420 00:29:54,799 --> 00:30:00,519 with the eighteenth, with the Baroque period than it does 421 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,680 with the seventeenth the sixteenth. Right why because we are 422 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,920 in a period of transition, just as those were periods 423 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,559 of transitions. The seventeenth, eighteenth, or rather the eighteenth, nineteenth, 424 00:30:13,599 --> 00:30:19,440 and twentieth centuries were marked by a remarkable cultural coherency, 425 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:27,119 technological coherency, homogeneity almost almost everywhere. You know, even colonialism 426 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,480 remains somewhat homogenous, if that makes sense to you, mister Pete. 427 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:36,759 Borders were not broken down the same way it was. 428 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,279 It was a very rigid, it was a very well 429 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:49,079 defined period of history. We do not have that. But 430 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:55,440 our forefathers in the sixteenth seventeenth century also did not 431 00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:59,759 have that. Because Europe was coming out of this thousand 432 00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:05,200 plus year long world of proto feudalism, of feudalism, and 433 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,400 you had these very old legacy systems that were so 434 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,839 big that couldn't they couldn't really be innovated in a 435 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,000 convenient way. And you had these brand new systems that 436 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:20,880 were untested that could work on very small scales, but 437 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:23,599 people hadn't figured out how to scale them up yet 438 00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:30,640 without utter failure. And so you have this huge disconnect. 439 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:35,960 This this this uneven development throughout Europe, you know, exemplified 440 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,920 by the Renaissance. You also had, like similar to today, 441 00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:43,119 you also had and we'll talk I don't want to 442 00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:48,880 get too far afield, but regardless, basically the Italian Wars 443 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:55,519 are one of the first examples of that because the 444 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,279 reasons for fighting the war are extremely midi evil, right, 445 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:10,440 It's dynastic intrigues and disputes between wives of various duchies 446 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:14,119 and you know, inviting in your cousin who's the king 447 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,759 of France and pressing old dynastic claims. That is what 448 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:28,640 starts the Italian Wars, you know. But the wars themselves 449 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,839 were fought with you know, imagine like eight year olds 450 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:41,079 holding ar fifteens. That's the wars themselves. Because military technology 451 00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:46,079 had started advancing to such a point you had arquebusks, 452 00:32:46,079 --> 00:32:49,839 you had mass firearms, you have mass artillery. The Italian 453 00:32:49,839 --> 00:32:54,039 Wars were actually the first instance of mass artillery being 454 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,279 ubiquitous in warfare, and it made a thousand years of 455 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:06,000 Europeans warfare functionally obsolete, which a lot of the Italian 456 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,880 city states had to learn the hard way. But the 457 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,440 Italian Wars begin when one of these Condottieri families, the 458 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,359 sports does basically coup the Duchy of Milan and set 459 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:28,359 themselves up as as the Dukes of Milans and wanted 460 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,200 the French to back them, and so they they encouraged 461 00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:36,519 the French to come and make good on their claim 462 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:40,200 on the Crown of Naples in the south south of Italy. 463 00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:43,160 Now the Crown of Naples, I think at this time 464 00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:47,079 was independent, but the monarch was related to the House 465 00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:50,240 of Spain, and so this this did not go very well. 466 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,440 And once again, like I said, I'm not going to 467 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:03,079 go into the wars too much. Kicks off about sixty 468 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,559 or so years of fighting because but I will go 469 00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,880 over the high points. The high points are you have 470 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:16,960 the War of the League of Cambrai, which lasts from 471 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,079 trying to remember how long it was. Sorry, I'm pulling. 472 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,679 I've decided to start fact checking myself mid episode. So 473 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,639 instead of giving out a bunch of bunk information, I 474 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,119 have the dates in front of me. It went from 475 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,800 fifteen oh eight to fifteen sixteen. And what it was 476 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,519 was it was a bunch of Italian states getting really 477 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:38,760 scared at Venice, having a lot of influence in the 478 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,199 north of Italy, and then inviting in the French, in 479 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:51,079 the Spanish, and the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope. 480 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,239 Matter of fact, it was the Pope who was the 481 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,079 center of all this. So actually that actually gives me. 482 00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:58,559 It gives me a nice little off ramp. So I 483 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:04,079 haven't talked about the Pope and all of this. These 484 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,199 three different polities, these three sort of big powers in 485 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,039 Italy the whole, the Habsburgs and the Holy Rown Empire, 486 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,199 the French and the Spanish all have differing ideas as 487 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:23,280 to what role the Pope is supposed to play. The 488 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:29,119 French very much like this sort of the French conception 489 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:35,960 of Catholicism is like a Protestant conception of Catholicism. They 490 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:41,199 conceive of Catholicism as the French state Church, and this 491 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,559 is you know, Gallicanism is a later development of this. 492 00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:46,519 That's the that's the actual official name for it. But 493 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,320 this goes back all the way to the Western Schism, 494 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,679 when you had a French papacy and an Italian papacy. 495 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:56,599 The French wanted the papacy, or at least their own papacy, 496 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:04,079 to be within the borders of France, inhabited at all 497 00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:08,639 times by a Frenchman, and friendly to the interests of France. 498 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:15,000 This is opposed to the imperial view of the papacy 499 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:20,199 that the Habsburgs have, that the papacy is the legitimizing 500 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:26,599 force for his left hand, which is the Holy Roman Empire, 501 00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:31,800 which is the continuation of the Roman Empire, which the 502 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,360 pope is the spiritual head of right. The Spanish, on 503 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,719 the other hand, have a third view of the pope, 504 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,119 and this is actually you could say this is sort 505 00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:44,840 of a continuation of the von Velf view or a 506 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,519 reinvention of it, of what would later be called ultramontanism, 507 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:53,679 the idea that the pope has complete and total dominion 508 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:59,159 over all things. And you could argue that it's very 509 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:01,559 similar to the half view, but it's a lot more 510 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:07,719 servile to the pope rather than how should I say, 511 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:10,679 I don't know what the right word is. Rather, I 512 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,039 don't want to say that the Habsburgs didn't see themselves 513 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:19,960 as subordinate, but they saw his role as excuse me, 514 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:30,239 mostly spiritual legitimization. Does that make sense, yes, So the 515 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:36,719 pope has his own view, and this is largely due 516 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,719 to the fact that the papal state has a geopolitical entity, 517 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,079 has a civil government that has subjects, collects, taxes, et cetera, 518 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:51,519 which is functions more or less outside of the Catholic 519 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:56,599 Church hierarchy and how the Church is across Europe function 520 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,960 And so this, as we've talked about in the past, 521 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:03,840 raises interesting questions as to as to what the pope, 522 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,639 what role the pope should play, and the pope as 523 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,920 kind of a part of this. I forgot to mention 524 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,599 the Italian city states, particularly under one Lorenzo di Medici, 525 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:20,519 that some of you might know, created this Italian League 526 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,000 which was sort of this this league of nations for 527 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:25,679 the for the for Italy, and it was meant to 528 00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:29,360 be this rules based order between all these different republics 529 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,159 and duchies and all of that that kept peace and 530 00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:36,360 kept the French and kept the Habsburgs out of Italy. 531 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:38,360 And you could argue that. You know, a lot of 532 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,960 people make a lot of hay about the nineteenth century 533 00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:47,760 and how nationalism was like these entirely invented, fabricated concept 534 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,719 but I'm not so sure it was as fabricated as 535 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:53,639 people think it was. 536 00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: Now. 537 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 2: It's one thing to read the past. To read the 538 00:38:56,519 --> 00:38:59,760 present onto the past, that's a big mistake. You can't 539 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,960 do that. App That's how people still believe that the 540 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,440 earth is millions of years old. But you have to 541 00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:15,920 read from the pass forward. And I think the Italian 542 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,159 League existence exemplifies that there was a sort of a 543 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:28,880 nascent idea of a unified Italy separate from France and 544 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,519 the Holy Run Empire in Spain without foreign influence. It's 545 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:35,119 just it was kind of strangled in the crib as 546 00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:43,800 were a lot of national ideas. But I digress. So 547 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,760 the War of legat the word of the Leagua Cambra, 548 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,519 you have, you know, a whole lot of side switching 549 00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:52,960 going on. First the French and the Spanish and the 550 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,840 Holy Run Empire coming on the one side, but then 551 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,320 the Spanish and the Holy run Empire switched to the 552 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,480 other side, and France stays on the first side, and 553 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,800 then Scotland gets involved at some point, and it's it's 554 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,599 it's a big mess. And this is this is why 555 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:07,639 I'm not going into the history of it, because it's 556 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,800 it's the Italians. You know how much side switching there is. 557 00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:21,159 Speaker 3: You know, it's it's, it's it's exceptionally complicated, but you know, 558 00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:22,880 it's it's and it's it's a lot like the Wars 559 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,840 of the Roses too, because the French gained dominion over 560 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,159 Naples at one point, and they also I think gained 561 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,400 dominion over Milan at one point, but it doesn't stick 562 00:40:32,159 --> 00:40:37,400 because the Spanish come back in the Spanish start wars 563 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:44,480 against the French and second high point War of the 564 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:45,400 League of Cognac. 565 00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: Why am I mentioning this, all right? I'm mentioning this 566 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,519 because this is when the one thing that you might 567 00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:59,800 have heard of of the Italian Wars occurred, which was 568 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,039 the Sack of Rome in fifteen twenty seven. Mister Pete, 569 00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:04,519 do you know anything about the Sack of Rome in 570 00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:05,360 fifteen twenty seven? 571 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,159 Speaker 1: Not as much as I should, So I. 572 00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 2: Mean it's it's it's not that in the grand scheme 573 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,639 of things, it's not that. Another interesting thing about the 574 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:24,119 Italian Wars they take place before and during the Protestant Reformation. 575 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:27,559 They started before the Protestant Reformation. But once the Protestant 576 00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:34,920 Reformation occurred in fifteen seventeen, I want to say, this 577 00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,920 spread like wildfire even throughout the armies of the of 578 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:44,880 the Empire, particularly amongst German soldiers, and there was a 579 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,000 lot of growth, and I mean growing resentment against the 580 00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:51,119 Papacy as an institution, against the Catholic Church as an 581 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:55,639 institution has hundreds of years of precedent at this point. 582 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,880 We did a whole episode on that, but it really 583 00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:03,719 starts to spill over when a lot of these soldiers, 584 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,800 with a lot of this animosity towards the Papacy, are 585 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,119 fighting a war in his general vicinity and he is 586 00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:13,000 on the enemy side. Right, So what was the Sack 587 00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:17,079 of Rome in fifteen twenty seven, Well, basically, in the 588 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:20,480 War of the League of Cognac, the Pope and the 589 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:27,239 Habsburgs were at one point on one side, later on 590 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:32,639 on one side, but in this instance they were opposed 591 00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:35,239 to each other because the papal states were backing France 592 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,519 at the time. A lot of this was over the 593 00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:41,960 Duchies of Milan and the Kingdom of Naples. Milan was 594 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,760 the richest part of Italy I think it still is, 595 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,840 or the Piedmont is and the Kingdom of Naples was 596 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:56,239 extremely well developed at the time. But basically the Emperor, 597 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,760 Charles the fifth and Charles the fifth was emperor at 598 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,519 the time, rounded the city of Rome with his forces 599 00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:08,239 in order to get the pope to come to terms. Unfortunately, 600 00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:10,360 and this is something we'll talk about later, this is 601 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,760 another thing that started undoing the Christendom world system, I 602 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,719 think largely because it just frankly got too big and 603 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,920 they didn't adopt the technologies to manage it, or the 604 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,119 technologies couldn't be adopted at scale to manage it. One 605 00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:31,199 of the two an army of a couple I think 606 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:42,440 like twenty thirty thousand Holy Roman and soldiers went without pay, 607 00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:47,559 and that is the primary reason why they mutinied against 608 00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:51,280 Charles the fifth broke into the city of Rome and 609 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,679 just started raping and pillaging and holding people hostage and 610 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,400 killing and all this o and looting and everything else. Now, 611 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,639 a lot of Lutherans were in that army, or at 612 00:44:03,679 --> 00:44:05,880 least they weren't. They didn't even call themselves Lutherans. A 613 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,440 lot of followers of Martin Luther were in that army, 614 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,519 and I am not going to sit here and say 615 00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:16,960 that that played zero role in it. But soldiering in 616 00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:23,199 these days was awful. It was a horrible thing to 617 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,719 do because you had a combination of all of the 618 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:34,599 medieval plagues, all of the medieval difficulties of heavy plate armor, 619 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,639 of melee combat, of all this other stuff, combined with 620 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,239 the modern threats of getting shot, getting exploded by a 621 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,159 cannon paul. It was. It was not a fun time 622 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,559 to be a warrior. For those of you who are 623 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,039 more interested in military history, this is the sort of 624 00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:58,440 the beginning of the of the pike and shot era, 625 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:02,079 where infantry, for the first time in a very long time, 626 00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:05,840 becomes the centerpiece of armies as opposed to heavy cavalry, 627 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,920 which marked the sort of end of the feudal world, 628 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,840 because the feudal world was largely based around heavy cavalry, 629 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,199 and largely because the Spanish developed something towards the end 630 00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:22,800 of the Italian Wars called the Tarthio, which was the 631 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:30,320 first proper implementation the first proper mix of pikes and 632 00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:35,119 arquebusks in warfare. You know, it's it's it's It's well 633 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,199 known that the pikes were in front and the arquebusks 634 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:49,480 were behind, firing over their shoulders. I digress. That was 635 00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:51,519 a couple of lines of thought. I'm trying to pick 636 00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:54,280 up one, but basically, yeah, the Sack of Rome, basically 637 00:45:56,039 --> 00:45:59,960 the Holy Roman Empire, and particularly both both the Age 638 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:06,400 are the Habsburg's domains generally were terrible at accounting, horrible 639 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,719 at accounting, could not They had a lot of money, 640 00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:10,880 a lot of gold and a lot of silver was 641 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,800 coming in from the colonies into Spain, and the fuggers, 642 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,239 who were the personal bankers of the Habsburgs, were able 643 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,280 to come up with a lot of money to loan 644 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:26,320 to them, but their accounting was just abysmal, and so 645 00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:32,400 whole armies of tens of thousands would go unpaid. These 646 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:40,960 soldiers who were suffering from plagues gangreen uh uh, confronting 647 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,840 almost certain death. The problem with these pike and shop formasons, 648 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,519 if you tripped, you would get trampled to death by 649 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:51,320 your fellow soldiers because they just couldn't stop moving, because 650 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,719 of because of the structure of the formation, you know, 651 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,239 the just to say nothing of the mud, of the 652 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:04,679 of the of the you know, physical fatigue. Syphilis by 653 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,360 the way, had started becoming a thing, and so that 654 00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:14,000 was wreaking havoc amongst the ranks. So have I painted 655 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,039 a good enough picture as to how much it sucked 656 00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:17,480 to be a soldier during these times? 657 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,119 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, and those formations were not new. 658 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,159 I mean you can go back to Alexander in some 659 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,400 of his formations where yeah, you were going to get 660 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,639 trampled just as easily. 661 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, precisely. The novelty was in in adding in finding 662 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:40,800 a way to make mass firearms useful in at scale. 663 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,239 That was the innovation that the Spanish were able to do. 664 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:44,800 But yes, a matter of fact, they took a lot 665 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,719 of inspiration and the foundation of these units were taken 666 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:58,360 from the Macedonian Phalanxes, who used similar sized pikes. Imagine 667 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,960 a whole army of this who don't get paid. You know, 668 00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:06,920 they don't get that little bit of money that they 669 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,880 can you know, have their fun gambling or you know, 670 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,159 I don't condone sin, but visiting ladies of the night. 671 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,800 Basically they can't buy those little creature comforts that you know, 672 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,199 because these soldiers just I don't even a lot of 673 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,679 them were press ganged. A lot of them were there 674 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,000 not by choice. Some of them were mercenaries who did 675 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,440 make a lot of money, and some of them weren't, 676 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,039 and so they weren't really even profiting off of this. 677 00:48:36,119 --> 00:48:38,039 But that was how they were able to get their 678 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:41,960 creature comforts that made life even somewhat bearable. Imagine not 679 00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:46,880 paying them in the middle of a siege, and what 680 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:52,159 do you think they're gonna do at this time? Armies 681 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:59,719 mutinying and sacking cities, whether it be friendly or not. 682 00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:05,440 It it became a common thing, and there was a 683 00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:08,360 and we're going to talk about this this very specifically 684 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,760 later on, mister Pete, when we get into the to 685 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,320 the financial aspect and the economic aspect of this world system. 686 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,840 But suffice it to say, right to kind of start 687 00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:27,280 bringing us to our conclusions, the Italian Wars can conclude 688 00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:34,559 right in fifteen fifty nine with I'm trying to remember 689 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,960 what the what the treaty was called? What was the treaty? 690 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,960 We'll look it up. The piece of catou cambresis all right, 691 00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:52,800 that's what it was. Called and it caused a whole 692 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,519 bunch of seating of territory. But basically the the the 693 00:49:56,679 --> 00:50:01,119 end of the Italian Wars, Spain is dominant. Spain becomes 694 00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:06,079 sovereign over the kingdoms of Sicily, of Naples, Sardinia, and 695 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,000 which was basically so Spain inherits all of the old 696 00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:13,719 Aragonese dominions under the Habsburgs. Because remember, part way through 697 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,880 the Italian Wars, the Habsburgs come in control of Spain 698 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:21,840 and start shifting the policy. So but Spain, Spain's national 699 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,719 interests are more or less secured. And in addition, the 700 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,679 Spaniards are given control over the Duchy of Milan, which 701 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:33,000 is the richest part of Italy. France, you know, England 702 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,920 got involved at one point. France gets some minor cessation, 703 00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:44,039 secession or cessations from England and from parts of the 704 00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:47,920 Holy Roman Empire. You know, there's some minor territorial changes 705 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,000 on the Italian peninsula. But what the end of the 706 00:50:52,039 --> 00:50:56,440 Italian Wars functionally does is establishes Spanish and rather re 707 00:50:56,599 --> 00:51:02,119 establishes Spanish and habsburg dominance over it at the expense 708 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:15,519 of France. And this does not do a lot for 709 00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:22,760 the legitimacy of the world system. In a large part, 710 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,880 this conflict was between two differing visions within Christendom. You 711 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,840 have the the Christendom thesis, which is pope and emperor, 712 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,199 you know, God and man, Church and state all made one. 713 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:42,079 That is the Holy Roman Empire, Habsburg claim, Habsburg dominion, 714 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,639 Habsburg ideological push as to what Christendom is supposed to be. 715 00:51:49,159 --> 00:51:52,719 It's supposed to be a re established Christian Roman Empire functionally. 716 00:51:55,639 --> 00:51:58,519 The French, on the other hand, have a lot more 717 00:51:58,679 --> 00:52:04,000 of an antithesis to that. They see the what is 718 00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:08,079 it they see? They see basically Christendom as supposed to 719 00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:12,760 be France and everyone else the Catholic Church is the 720 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,159 French Church, and all of the other peoples of Europe 721 00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:20,719 are you know, ethnically influenced. This is a lot more, 722 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,159 you know, and you could say it's a lot more 723 00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:29,039 of an ethnic empire. And I mean and later on 724 00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:32,079 France did get something, you know, did have the most 725 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:39,440 the highest cultural influence in Europe. But these Italian wars, 726 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,079 these on and off conflicts utilizing these you know, a 727 00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:46,559 lot of proxy states were used. You had a lot 728 00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:49,599 of devastation that it ended the Italian Renaissance, and it 729 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:55,000 ended Italy as the most well developed, richest place on 730 00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:59,199 the on the European continent and kind of started pushing 731 00:52:59,199 --> 00:53:04,119 it more towards the backwater status, which it unfortunately kind 732 00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:08,639 of holds until the present day as compared to its neighbors. 733 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,000 You can only have so many armies march through you 734 00:53:12,039 --> 00:53:14,199 and sack your city so many times before you kind 735 00:53:14,199 --> 00:53:17,920 of go back a couple of levels of development, and 736 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,400 it starts to show the cracks of this system. Right, 737 00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:27,079 Why are the quote unquote leaders of this add to 738 00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:30,199 this the fact that you have religious dissidents within the 739 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:36,239 armies of the primary world power upholding this Christendom world system. 740 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,199 You know, why why are you having military force being 741 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:51,079 utilized between so called constituent members of Catholic Europe who 742 00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:55,519 are all theoretically under the pope and the Pope himself 743 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,880 his own opinions and his own assertions. You know, with 744 00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:02,079 Spain is only back or being taken over by the 745 00:54:02,159 --> 00:54:06,440 Habsburgs are kind of swept under the rug and he's 746 00:54:06,519 --> 00:54:09,239 kind of turned into this, you know, into this little 747 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,400 rump figure which he you know, more or less still 748 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:19,920 inhabits today. Politically, if the Italian Wars were anything. It 749 00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:25,079 was a final end of the pope having any say 750 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:31,559 into how his legitimacy was utilized by his by the 751 00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:38,039 states that let's just say that he backs so. Added 752 00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:44,599 this the Protestant Reformation. Add to this, you know, resentment 753 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:50,039 against the Habsburg Dominion in Austria, in the Holy Run Empire, 754 00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:54,320 in Spain and Italy. Add this the fact that the 755 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,280 French feel humiliated and start building further resentment towards this 756 00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:05,880 Habsburg world order, and you know, you have a system 757 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,000 and crisis. And that's what the Italian Wars more or 758 00:55:11,079 --> 00:55:16,199 less brought about. A bunch of powers with different dreams, 759 00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:20,039 you know, more or less independent entities coming out of 760 00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:25,719 a feudal world stepped into these Italian Wars, and what 761 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:31,519 came out was more or less two broad sides of 762 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:37,320 a conflict that would later rend Christendom in half. But 763 00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:44,599 we're a bit further away from that historically. Yeah, I mean, 764 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,880 I know we're I know, we're a few minutes short 765 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:48,760 of how long you usually go. But I think that's 766 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,440 a good place to leave it. Did you have any 767 00:55:51,639 --> 00:55:53,840 any thoughts or anything you wanted to add to this, mister. 768 00:55:53,599 --> 00:55:57,480 Speaker 1: Pete No, no, But I think you're right. I think 769 00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:00,960 when you when you start looking beyond beyond this, that 770 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,440 the kind of say the Pope has over the Catholic 771 00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,800 the Catholic world. You see it start to it doesn't 772 00:56:14,159 --> 00:56:17,559 just go away, but it dwindles and dwindles and windles. 773 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Pope kind of starts becoming a sock puppet 774 00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:25,119 for imperial interests the more things happen. Not to say 775 00:56:25,119 --> 00:56:27,119 that he has no say not to say that he 776 00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:32,639 has no power, because the empire is It's whole legitimacy 777 00:56:33,079 --> 00:56:34,679 is based off of the fact that it was the 778 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,360 it was the Empire of Charlemagne, it was the new 779 00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:43,480 Roman Empire, the better Christian Roman empire that the Pope created, 780 00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:45,360 that is backed by the Pope, That is the hand 781 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,719 of the Pope in on Earth. That is their whole 782 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,159 basis of legitimacy. But unfortunately, if the Pope himself disagrees 783 00:56:54,199 --> 00:56:57,880 with that, then you know, something's got to give there. 784 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,159 And I'm not here to say say that the you know, 785 00:57:01,199 --> 00:57:03,800 the French were any better. The French were just unabashedly 786 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,800 selfish and self centered, as they always are in terms 787 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,519 of how they wanted the system to work. They wanted 788 00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,400 to systems the same thing that they have never stopped. 789 00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:14,920 You know, you look at how France acts in the 790 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,199 EU today, it's the same thing. You know. They want 791 00:57:17,239 --> 00:57:22,199 it to be the France and everyone else show. You know, 792 00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:25,719 they want it to be France and all of her friends, 793 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,480 and all of her subjects and all of her her lackeys. 794 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,239 You know. So I'm not here to say that there's 795 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,000 any moral superiority in the French position. But you know, 796 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,800 what the French do have is a nascent version of 797 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:43,079 what you could later call nationalism, of their conception of 798 00:57:43,119 --> 00:57:47,719 themselves as an entity separate from and yet still a 799 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:53,320 part of the rest of Europe. And that is the 800 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:59,280 idea that you know, the Spanish would have a little bit, 801 00:57:59,719 --> 00:58:01,840 but you know they were more or less under habsburg 802 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:07,480 dominion that the English would absolutely have. And later on 803 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,880 the biggest thorn in the side of the Habsburg's in 804 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:22,440 the Spanish the Netherlands. But that's a later episode. So 805 00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:29,119 we've talked about the Italian Wars. Now what is the next? 806 00:58:29,199 --> 00:58:36,119 Oh boy, well, Pete, when we come back, that's when 807 00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:41,320 we're gonna That's when, that's when we're gonna have the 808 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,079 fireworks fly because next episode we will be discussing the 809 00:58:45,159 --> 00:58:46,199 Protestant Reformation. 810 00:58:48,679 --> 00:58:52,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, here we go. But the one thing I guess 811 00:58:52,079 --> 00:58:55,880 you can see from this is, yeah, one man basically, 812 00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,920 one man rule over Europe whittles down to one man 813 00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:06,199 rule over countries, and then eventually you get you know, 814 00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:09,519 like in Spain, the courts has their power grows more 815 00:59:09,559 --> 00:59:13,280 and more, so you go away from one man and 816 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,639 then you know, eventually that just starts breaking down, breaking down, 817 00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:20,039 breaking down, and so you get the managerial managerialism we've 818 00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:22,360 had for the last eighty ninety years. 819 00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:26,960 Speaker 2: Exactly. Managerialism didn't come from nowhere. This idea of a 820 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:32,320 self regulating rules based order. You know, people don't understand this, 821 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,320 but AGI was invented in the in the seventeenth century. 822 00:59:37,159 --> 00:59:40,320 AGI is the is the rules based order. That's all 823 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,599 it is. It's a it's a complex adaptive system that 824 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,840 has no sovereign over it, that is its own source 825 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,480 of authority, that edits itself based on internal polling. And 826 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:58,039 you know, is what has resulted in managerialism today. And 827 00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:01,079 I don't want to say it's an entirely evil thing, 828 01:00:01,159 --> 01:00:04,800 because it's how we have modern day instant availability internet, 829 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,840 twenty first century civilization, but there were certainly costs that 830 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,960 came with it, and I'm not sure how sustainable it 831 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:15,360 will be in the future. So the past isn't even past. 832 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,239 Everyone All of the ideas that we discussed today have 833 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,440 historical precedents. They all came from somewhere in the past, 834 01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:25,559 and they're a lot older than you may think they are. 835 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,000 Speaker 1: And I think everyone believes that the system that they're 836 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,639 living under is the one that's going, Oh, this is 837 01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:36,719 the way it's going to be forever. And I mean 838 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,199 it really just goes to show how people just don't 839 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,559 understand history. 840 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,440 Speaker 2: Maybe later on you could have me to come on 841 01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:50,880 and discuss Young Earth creationism, which will probably infuriate a 842 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,920 large amount of your audience, but I think that's part 843 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:59,320 of the appeal. But the idea that you just you 844 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:06,920 can't have have a rapid, radically changing event that happens 845 01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:10,039 in a very short period of time that completely transforms 846 01:01:10,079 --> 01:01:14,320 everything is foolishness. That's how history works. There's no such 847 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,719 thing as a long gradual processes. The way things are, 848 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,880 you know, they normalcy bias, you know they are how 849 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,599 they are, And then one day everything changes, and some 850 01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:26,440 people could predict it and some people can't. But one day, 851 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,960 the whole paradigm breaks and shifts and completely re orients itself, 852 01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:33,840 and it's a completely unrecognizable world to the one that 853 01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,800 pre existed it. And that is how history works, you know. 854 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,960 Spangler once said history is just the movement from catastrophe 855 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,199 to catastrophe. And I don't know about you, Pete, but 856 01:01:46,239 --> 01:01:48,639 I feel like we're moving towards a catastrophe right now. 857 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the conversation that we had before we 858 01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:59,920 started recording, yeah, is one that most people don't really 859 01:02:00,159 --> 01:02:02,719 want to have at this point. It's a little more 860 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,679 of the the conversation I had with Clay Martin than 861 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,079 the conversations that we have on our on our live streams. 862 01:02:10,639 --> 01:02:21,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, promote what you want, support the old 863 01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:21,840 Glory Club. 864 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,519 Speaker 2: I don't really care about anything else. 865 01:02:25,559 --> 01:02:28,119 Speaker 1: I hear you, man, I'm at that point too. It's like, 866 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,719 I care about my people. And somebody asked today He's like, well, 867 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,559 what someone was listening some getting caught up on some 868 01:02:36,599 --> 01:02:38,679 of my episodes and he's like, well, what what what 869 01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:39,039 is it? 870 01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:39,280 Speaker 2: Now? 871 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,039 Speaker 1: What what is it? I'm like, I just support my 872 01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:47,599 people and in real life. That's the whole point of 873 01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:50,519 the Old Glory Club is you have people in real 874 01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:54,239 life to rely upon and build with. That's it. 875 01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:59,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean. And even if you aren't a 876 01:02:59,199 --> 01:03:01,280 part of the Old Glory Club and have no interest 877 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,559 in in in being a part of the Old Glory Club, 878 01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:07,599 start something with someone near you because you're gonna need it. 879 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Paul, I will talk to you the 880 01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:15,800 next time. We're gonna do that. We're gonna do this 881 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,519 next one quicker, people, Well we'll follow up on this 882 01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:19,960 a lot quicker than we did the last one. 883 01:03:20,119 --> 01:03:22,440 Speaker 2: Oh man, the next one is gonna burn down your channel. 884 01:03:24,679 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 1: Oh that's that's what I loved for. Thanks Paul, all. 885 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 2: Right, take care of Pete. M hm hm