Speaker 1: The paranormal, UFOs, monsters, mysteries. As you're listening to Talking
Weird and Know from a Kevin deep in the northwards,
your hosts, Doctor Dean Bertram.
Speaker 2: Greetings of my fellow weirdos and weirdos. Welcome to Talking
Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host, Dean Bertram,
and as always, I'm delighted that you've decided to join
me for the next hour or so. Whether it's when
we go out live on Thursday nights at nine pm
Central on YouTube and Facebook or x maybe you're watching
and listening to it on one of those platforms afterwards
where it's archived, or perhaps you're listening to the audio
only version which always drops the day after the live
show on the Friday. Wherever you are, whatever time zone
you're in, whatever time you're in, whether you're weigh in
my distant future, or you're here with me in the present,
or maybe from the past. You've traveled forward and you've
grabbed it as a time travel like Art Bell would
have talked about me wonderful coast to coast. I am regardless, Greetings,
I'm so glad that you're all here with me. I'm
super excited about the guest I have Today's a very
very good friend of mine. Before I bring him on, though,
I just want to remind people that this weekend is
UFO Days in Elmwood, Wisconsin, from July twenty four to
twenty six. They have all kinds of wonderful events, including
an amazing UFO parade on the twenty sixth. On the
twenty fifth, however, there's a bunch of speakers on UFO
topics and the paranormal and the like, and I am
one of those speakers. In fact, I am finishing the
show at six thirty on the Saturday, so that's July
twenty five this Saturday, and I will be screening what
you've probably heard me talk about. If you're a regular
viewer of or listener of Talking Weird on the ONTI
Radio network, you probably heard me talk about The Shaver
Mystery many times. It's been on the festival circuit now
for over two years, and it's still running. I'm sure
I'll wind down eventually. Every time I think we must
be getting close to the end, I get more screenings,
which is great. I'm not complaining. So I'll be screening
The Shaver Mystery there. If you haven't seen it, you
who come along and watch it with me and the
rest of the audience, and then I'll be doing my
little presentation, The Shaver Mystery Part two, which I've actually
done before at a convention that tonight's guest is one
of the organizers for. He's a super fan of the
paranormal and the world of the weird, and you can
catch him on his own show, Donnie cho says stuff
on YouTube. So I'm delighted to welcome back to Talking
Wed my very good friend, one and only, Donna Chow. Hello, man,
it's great to have you. I miss Crossings. I had
so much Sam and I had so much fun at that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just for a little clarification, I was not one
of the organizers. I just kind of attended all the
organizer meetings and kind I just sat there and cracked jokes. Well,
the other people did most of their heavy lifting.
Speaker 2: Believe me, if they had like a Nuremberg trial, you'd
be like, I was.
Speaker 3: Not one of them. Yeah, I was just kind of
I was just there in the corner.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Well, you seemed like you were a
vital part of it when I was there. That was
the impression that I had anyway.
Speaker 3: So well, I mean because you know the group, right,
I was. I was a member of that group, So
that was cool. That was fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a fun event. It was nice to
get to hang out with you in person, which was amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I hope, hopefully we'll have more opportunities like that.
Speaker 2: I sure hope. So you've got to come to Midwest Widfest,
which is the first weekend of March in Oak Clare, Wisconsin,
every year and a night of Horror they run simultaneously.
We've been running there now for every decade.
Speaker 3: First weekend in March.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you should come.
Speaker 3: I do have some vacation time coming out.
Speaker 2: Man. It's a fun time. It's a lot of fun.
That'd be amazing to have you there.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to think about that.
Speaker 2: You should twist McLean's arm as well.
Speaker 3: I should.
Speaker 2: And BMR is not that bml's Midwest, right, he's in Michigan.
Speaker 3: How far is that from you?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's probably closer than Texas. And and
were you where you're I always forget where you are
exactly the Maryland.
Speaker 3: I recently moved to North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Ah, that's quite the that's quite the I would think
it would be a little different, there is it. Because
I've been to Maryland and I think I've driven through
the Carolinas. It seemed pretty different.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's more humid here, but slightly, it's not that much.
I feel like the weather overall, the climate's better in
Maryland because it's more temperate. You get all four seasons.
Speaker 2: And lots of spooky I would have thought there might
have been more. I think, well, no, that might not
be true. Where was the spooky stuff? What's the weader
of the two states?
Speaker 3: I feel like North Carolina's got more. They both have
a lot. Actually, now that I think about it, North
Carolina definitely has more cryptid stuff. Uh, Maryland because of
its history, especially you know where it sits in American history,
I feel like there's a lot more ghosts and haunting stuff.
I did look into it, and yeah, there was quite
a bit of that. I only ever heard of maybe
a small handful of crypted encounters. But I feel like
North Carolina does definitely has more of that.
Speaker 2: What's the main CRYPTI in North Carolina?
Speaker 3: Dog man?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And apparently this is like dog me in Central
and Kentucky and but yeah, in Michigan.
Speaker 2: And even even the south, even Wisconsin is one of
those is where we get the basic brain runs from. Yeah,
but I didn't know the Carolinas was a dog man place.
Speaker 3: Apparently there's a bunch of dog man encounters here in
the western part, like near Tennessee.
Speaker 2: Okay, because that's that's down to that's getting closer to
land between the lakes as well, right with.
Speaker 3: It's getting there, getting to like the Blue Riche Mountains
and everything. That's not where I'm at. I'm I'm in
like the northern central part, and you're Raleigh, So I'm
like just in the burbs.
Speaker 2: Do you consider yourself as Southern and am more than
when you're in Maryland.
Speaker 3: I don't even consider where up the part I am
the South. Really, Raleigh is kind of like Austin. You
get a lot of transplants from other states and there's
a lot of like tech companies here, so it's like Austin. Yeah,
it's technically into South, but you don't really consider it
the South because you have so many people moving in
from like California and stuff and gotcha other states, gotcha.
So Raleigh, Raleigh and the surrounding area is kind of
like that. Most of them. The license plate you see
in traffic are all from outers Artis Date, much to
the chagrin of the local North Carolinians.
Speaker 2: Oh, I bet it's frustrating, I think. I mean, I
can't talk because I'm one of the imports to a
rural area. But if you're in an area and you
had certain social mores and in a traditions, and then
all these people come in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're an ex pat, that's different.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Maybe do you ever miss Australia?
Speaker 2: You know what I think? I sometimes obviously miss friends
and family here in Australia. Do you know what I mean?
I'd lived in Sydney and it's a horrible thing to say,
but I think Sydney's best days are behind it. I
tend to think sometimes when Citi has become so big,
they become less livable. I think I grew up at
a time in Sydney where while Sydney was still the
major city in Australia, it hadn't grownunder the size that
it has now. They were still really nice out of suburbs.
You could still park on the streets of the city
for goodness sakes, like you can literally drive into the
heart of the city and park. You know, I don't
think you could do that anymore on a street in Sydney.
So I don't miss the idea of living in a
city like that.
Speaker 3: I really don't.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to live in a city like that
anywhere on the planet. But yeah, I miss you know,
I miss friends and family and stuff, and I missed
probably the old Sydney of when I was a kid.
But everybody has those golden childhood you know, memories of
areas they lived when they were little, which mightn't be
like that anymore. The suburb I grew up in, which
was very we say bushy in Australia, but woodsy or foresty,
you know what I mean, big blocks, houses or you know,
backing onto you know, essentially bushland or forest land. You know,
no fences, kids running, you know, rampant and hit parents,
voices calling them home. You know the Springsteen song. You
know you hear mother's voice calling you home across the
open yards. That's literally what Sydney was like when I
grew up. You start hearing parents calling their kids. By
the time I left, it wasn't even like that. And
now it's nothing like that, like from the people I
talked to there. So in a way, I'm glad I
didn't have to watch the parts of Sydney I really
love become, you know, trashed by excessive development. Anyway, we
should talk paranormal because people were be going are they're
doing a real estate travel show?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Or are they not? I know because I haven't talked
to you for a while. That's why it's nice catching
up with you. It's almost like I wasn't even paying
attention to the fact we've we've got an audience out there.
So you pitched the idea of the show to now.
I think it's a great idea, the idea of proving
the paranormal. How do you do it? Can it be done?
Is it even worth doing? So maybe that's where we launch.
Tell me a little bit about about your reason for
wanting to talk about this tonight.
Speaker 3: Well, a couple things. One, I was on a show
last night where people were just throwing up a bunch
of pictures, you know the type where it's a cryptid
show and they'll show you like a picture of the
woods or something, and there's like a black splotch off
in a corner that they have to use a red
circle to identify. And we've all seen it. We've seen
thousands of those, and I remember during that time, I
was just looking staring at it and thinking to myself, Man,
why are we doing this? Is this isn't going to
convince anyone. It's not even going to convince like hardcore
Bigfoot believers. And then at the end of the day,
is like, is there any picture that would prove something
like that? That's more of the question of like is
this worth it? Right? The other thing I started thinking
about was like the other phenomenon in the Fordian field,
like psychics and ghosts. I feel like something like that
would be provable if we came up with the right experiment.
The problem is no one's really thought of the right experiment.
Speaker 1: Or the one that no.
Speaker 3: One's tried to execute it, and maybe for logistical reasons.
But here's an example, right and to a topic that is,
I guess parallel to the Fortian field astrology. Right there,
there are people who believe in astrology, there are people
who don't. Everyone's got their sign, everyone knows their sign.
But even to the people they that don't believe it
are people who are on the fence. I'm like, you know,
we could prove this. It's very provable. All you gotta
do is just survey enough people ask them if you know,
because we already have established the different characteristics of each
of the different signs. Okay, Like, for example, Dean, let
me ask you, what is your sign? And in your
opinion of yourself, do you feel like you fit that mold?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm Aries, and I think I do.
Speaker 3: Hell, so.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. Well, there's an assertiveness to an areas.
It's an I am sign. It's an ego sign. Right,
there's an idea you can you know, you can get
things done, you can do things, you kind of motivated.
That's and I think a lot of those a lot
of those traits. I've always thought that part of the
aries and and that said, I'm not an astrologist, Like
I don't look at my sign, I don't read my
signs in the papers. I don't really think about it.
But I remember as a kid growing up in the
seventies and eighties, when astrology was, you know, a major thing,
that I was like, Oh, what's Aries? Oh, okay, it's
I am and okay, just kind only and even as
a kid, I was conscious of you know, I'm kind
of like that.
Speaker 3: So, but do you agree? Do you think if people
put in the effort to like survey enough people, we
could kind of figure out, like, maybe there's some legitimacy
to the whole science thing and the characteristics of individual people.
Speaker 2: Perhaps I know that somebody who's a serious and I listen,
I'm not an again, I'm not an astrologist. And I
don't even know how much it's ironic because I say, yeah,
I fit the areas were, But at the same time,
I'm like, well, I don't really know how much credence
I give to it. So I'm kind of playing both
sides here. But I know that in astroll, like a
real astrology would say, well, it's not as simple as
your signs. We've got to see where mercury was and
satin was and what cust I mean, I'm just talking
out the side of that now. I don't even know
the terminology. But they're like, and we know what meridian
you were on or whatever the devil they talk about,
right like, it's a complicated it's a complicated I don't
say this derogatory. I say as a pseudoscience, right, like
it's not accepted as a science. But astrologist who actually
did it professionally or really put a lot of time
into the study of it, would say, well, it's more
complicated than you just being born, you know, in April
or whatever. You know. They go so so, yeah, So
I'm not sure if just by I'm not sure whether
it would or wouldn't even make astrologists go Okay, well
you got there, you know, like they said, no, no,
you missed this anyway, because this is far more complicated.
That's what I expect.
Speaker 3: I think. Do you think an empirical study could be
performed to if enough academics did put into time, into
resources into it.
Speaker 2: It's a very good question. And then you know what
I don't know enough about I don't know enough about astrology.
Just are there different schools? Like then would another school
I don't even know, Like is there only one way
of doing astrology or is there twenty thirty forty different schools?
I really don't know. I think you could do you
could do it. You could do a pole driven study
where you could do ask the exact questions you asked me,
what is your star signed? Do you think you fit
the traits of that, but then you've got it. Then
does that indicate that the science if it's a science.
Anybody who listens this show knows I'm not a big
fan of science anyway. But if it could be somehow
you know, quantified and qualified and put into a neat
little box, could you then say, well, maybe people were
biased because they've been told they were what they knew
they were in areas or a pisceas or Aquarius or
whatever since they were a kid, and they looked into
it and then they thought, well, there is that part
of me. It's like doing a cold read, you know
how like somebody a good cold reader can behave like
a psychic. They know exactly how to get a confirmation
bias out of you. And maybe if somebody had told
me I was born, you know, in February or something,
I go, well, yeah, I have traits of the pis season.
So I don't know if that would prove what I'm
saying is I don't know if that would prove the
legitimacy of astrology, or if it would just prove that
there's x amount of the population who are living up
to a confirmation bias. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this question, a more personal question
than Dean. Have you ever gotten to like a psychic
reading or like a tarot reading done on you and
in hindsight, based off what they told you, did it
come true?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I certainly have had. I've certainly
played around enough, you know, back in my teens and
twenties with Taro and with other people who did Taro
to have probably gotten, you know, have received readings. Did
I ever get something that told my future accurately? Not
that I can recall, to be honest. I mean, maybe
somebody did tell something about my future and it kind
of but was never I was never impressed enough by
anything to have walked away and gone, you know, back
at that you know, back at that party in my
twenties when that hippie girl red my terror. She was
dead on you know. So to answer you a question,
I can't even remember the ratings, and I certainly can't
remember any of them, making.
Speaker 3: It so when people ask me if, hey, Donnie, do
you believe in psychics and Taro and stuff? I always
say yes because I have to, because the times I
recall where I got psychic reading they all came true,
like onred percent of the one hundred percent of the
predictions came true. And these instances I recall very well.
First time it was in Manhattan. I was with this
girl who was like a Maxim model. At the time.
I was in my twenties, and I was just there
because she was like the type of girl if she
asked you to come with her, you don't say no, right.
I gave her a ride to her psychic who she
was seeing, like like you know, pretty regularly, and I
was just there hanging out and they were just like, hey, Donnie,
do you want to do you want to reading? And
at the time I knew nothing of that the sort
of thing, right, So I was like, yeah, whatever, why
not they do a reading for me. The lady goes
and she's like an Eastern World like European kind of lady,
and she says, in about this time in a year,
you're going to be living in another country. And at
the time I had zero plans. I had just gotten done.
I just graduated college, you know, I was like in
my first job. Still, I was like, I'm not I
have zero intention lo and behold a year two that
day I was living in South Korea working as an
English teacher. Wow. A few years later, I am at
a bar with a bunch of friends and this is
a bar that we went to pretty regularly in Korea,
and the bartender, who was like a regular, you know,
we were regular, so we were friends with him. He
was like, it was a very slow night. There weren't
a lot of people, and we were just hanging out
and he said, Hey, guys, I've got this new hobby
going on. It's called tarot can I and I'm practicing.
Can I do a reading for you? We're like sure,
And then just for the fun of it, we're like, hey,
let's do this. Let's do a specific topic. Let's talk
about our dating lives for the next year. And he
went through like every relationship I would have in that
next year. It all came true to a t in
the same order. And like a year later, I thought
back on that and I was like, well, Taro is real.
H That guy wasn't even like a professional or nothing.
He was just dabbling. Wow, so I have to believe it.
But the thing is that proof only works for me
because that's my own personal experience. Right to prove something
to the masses. You can't really do that. You know,
you have to find you know, you have to perform
actual experiments, get data, get results. But no one's actually
doing that because everyone's so hung up on like producing
pictures and films that no one's gonna believe anyway. Right, Okay,
so here's here's the other thought experiment I often bring
up to people. Right, you know, people are always trying
to come up with pictures of Bigfoot, right, and they'll
have a random black splotch in the corner, a picture
of the woods or whatever. What if, Okay, one day
someone had a trail cam footage and a bigfoot just
walks right in front of the camera, stand still, and
it's just a full frontal, clears day picture of Bigfoot.
That person then takes that picture releases it out into
the world. How do you think people react.
Speaker 2: I think they would be a mixture of reaction. I
think they'd be a lot of people in the Sasquatch
community that would eagerly accept it and think it was accurate,
you know, legitimate photo. There might even be some people
in the Sasquatch community that would think it was a hoax.
I think in the real world, you know, they'd be
a mixture of people who were optimistic about it, and
there'd be people who were pessimistic. I think skeptics would
roll out, you know, saying it was a hoax. I
so again, the I think, much like perhaps we were
talking about confirmation bias before. I think often where your
belief system already sits can affect your interpretation of an
image like that. It's like the Patterson Gimlin thing that
you and I BMR talked about the last time you
were on Talking with.
Speaker 3: I think there's a difference with the Paris and Gimlin.
Though if this were to happen today now I have
to slightly disagree because my opinion, if they took a
picture like that, a full frontal clear picture of Bigfoot
front of a betrail camp, I think for the most part,
people wouldn't buy it. People will either say it's either
a guy in a suit or it's AI. Right now,
Paris and Gimlin had took place at a time when
there was no AI, so you take that out of
the equation. But if you were to come out nowadays
and just had a full frontal clear picture of Bigfoot,
first assumption, everyone's going to make it.
Speaker 2: Oh it's a yeah, I agree with you. I agree
with you. Actually you're right, and I don't I don't know.
I don't know how that can ever be walked back really,
you know, I don't know how we get to a
place where I mean, maybe if it was maybe to
your point before, if it was very much an organized
scientific study that was you know, done under a serious,
you know, full proof methodology, where it could be verified
that an image was taken, I think then it might
be a different discussion. Then it might get the front
page of the New York Times or something. But yeah,
of just's some random hunter in a field. So as
I got this on my game cam, Yeah, I think,
I think. But there'll be people in the There'll be
people in the bigfoot community who there's people in the
big foot community who you know, will look at a
red circle around a blurry image, you know, which looks
like a shadow behind a tree in sight, it's a sasquatch.
So there's plenty of people who were beak sided.
Speaker 3: I think I see that as two ends of two
extreme ends. Right, You've got the blurry spot in the
corner with the red circle, and then most people are
to say well, that's nothing. But the thing is, the
clearer it is and the more realistic it is, the
less inclined the mainstream is gonna believe it, because then
they're just gonna say it's a guy in a suit. Yeah,
so you can't win. Well, there's another example. I recall.
It was a ghost photo, right, and they said it
was the most realistic picture of a ghost ever and
it was a full on picture of an apparition. I
wish I could show you the picture, but I don't
have access to the streaming ar and I can't find
a picture anyway. But I do recall this because it
was as clear as day. It was a woman and
her child, a toddler in their living room, right, posing together,
and then background over the woman's shoulder, towards the back
of the room, there's just a woman standing there and
people are and like, just clear as day, there's just
a woman literally in the background. And then you know,
someone I think I read it was like, yeah, that
woman had died like years ago, right, But and again
it was just clear as day, crystal clear picture of
a woman in the background. But I'm like, what if
that was just a woman in the background. What if
it was that woman's mother, right.
Speaker 2: I haven't experienced a little bit like that when I
When I was in college, my brother and I through
very extensive Halloween parties. We would actually charge a cover
charge to the people we invited, and there would be
like propacated food, like we'd bring in catering trucks, and
they'd be like, you know, free drinks, and they'd be
live bands, and they'd be you know, all kinds of
crazy shenanigans. Like it was almost like going to a
guest in America at a hornet house where you were
just privately invited, right, And we did our house. We'd
set up like a horn It was a big deal
and we did. We didn't do it forever, but we
probably did it for three or four years. It was
a consistent thing we did. And one year there was
a photo on Halloween of the band playing Lived This
is how crazy we were about these parties. We built
a stage at the back of our house for the
built a stage and it stayed there for the bands
to play on about Halloween parties. And there was a
photo that was taken on that stage of the band playing,
and there was something that everybody who saw the program
for the photo were horrified by there was some weird,
ghostly demonic head just coming out of the darkness, clear
as anything, right, and people would look at it. Multiple
people looked at this photo. Multiple people are like, what
on earth is that?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 2: We eventually figured out what it was. It was my
brother's hand playing his guitar with a big white like
he had a gothic frill, and just the way it
was positioned, and it was just like it didn't there
was no context to it because everything else was dark.
It fully looked like a demonic face coming out of
the darkness.
Speaker 3: Wow, I bet you.
Speaker 2: If I hadn't said that and put it up now
and zoomed in, people go, yeah, what is That's a
spooky face? Like it was a scary, but it was
just an anomaly. It was just my brother's hand playing
with his big white goth you know, cuff sticking out
playing you know, playing playing holding the neck of the guitar.
So sometimes we can see things which were sure and
multiple people can be sure something anomalous and you know
they're not.
Speaker 3: I've got a similar story, well not similar, but kind
of kind of into Sam being So a couple of
years back, I think the year before that Crossing Rolls conference.
The whole group of us we were all at a
conference in Alabama, like me and Jason and everyone else.
Rob the Rob was not there, but the blondes were there.
Like the group was there for a big foot conference, right,
so you know how you know, after the conference at night,
everyone likes to go to the bar hang out, right,
So first night there, we're at the bar. There's a
bunch of speakers and a bunch of people at the
conference all hanging out. I'm off playing pool, and none
other than Jason McLean comes up to me looking white
as a ghost, looking like all wide eyed, and you
can ask him this story. He'll tell you the story.
He's like, dude, you know. He tasks me on the shoulder.
He's like, dude, you got to come with me right now.
You got to see this. So I'm like in the
middle of my game, okay, so I just you know,
put down my stuff. I go over to him, and
there's this girl who was attending the conference with like
her mother. She was like a college age girl. And
Jason was like goes to her and she's like, show
show Donnie what she showed me. So she takes out
her phone and she's flipping through pictures. Basically they own horses, right,
and they've got you know, they're it's all pictures of
her horses at the ranch outside right, like running around
and she's flipping through them, and it's all like in sequence, right,
same setting, same subject. But in one of the pictures
up in the sky, there's a silhouette of a terroosaur,
unmistakable terosaur like that press. It's all it's black, and
you know, Jason famously had that terrostare encounter. That's why
he was looking white as a ghost because it was
like clear as day. This girl, we know is not
hoaxing because once she wasn't seeking attention, she wasn't blasting
that out on podcasts or on the internet. She just
came to the convention not even knowing that Jason had
a terrorist soar encounter. She's like, I got something weird
on my phone. But because it was a person a
person experience. Back to my point earlier, like personal encounters
are some of the most powerful evidence that anyone ever needs.
But you can't. I had no reason to believe that
girl was lying or that she made it up at
all because from what I knew about that girl and
that situation and the fact that she wasn't putting it
out there. And then afterwards Jason and I were talking
about it, We're like, what if we took that picture
and just put it up on a podcast? And then
we both shrugged him. Jason was like, no one will care.
No one will care because we don't have the context
of where it came from. To the people watching at home,
it's just a random outline of a black flying creature
in the corner of like some horse pictures.
Speaker 2: And I think, I mean, maybe that's maybe that is
You've hit on the fact that so much of this
I don't mean anecdotal in a dismissive way, but so
much of it is from personal encounters, the history of
the entire phenomenon when it's recorded and when it written down,
whatever it is. And when I say the phenomenon, I
mean literally, whether it's I could say phenomena, but I
think it's all kind of the same. So whether it's
say phenomena to make people more comfortable, whether it's a
UFO or a ghost or a bigfoot or whatever, these
are incredibly powerful personal encounters and maybe, and I often
think they're there to serve some kind of purpose. They're
not there for something for us to ever actually know
and decipher. They might be there to point us to
the idea that reality is very different than we think
it is. But I don't think it's I don't think
the mystery is solvable. And when this is what I
thought about the topic, you suggest that we talk about
this about proving the paranormal and why I wanted to
do it so much with such a great idea is
I know Horace Smith is in the chat, the professor
emeritus of astronomy in physics at Michigan State University, a
very good friend of mine, a very good friend of
the show, and I'm sure he'll disagree with me. But
I don't think science has equipped, quite frankly, to explain
or just to decipher much of this. And that's because
I think much of this doesn't operate in a space
that any of the physical science is capable of dealing with.
And I don't think it fits.
Speaker 3: While I do agree science is not equipped to handle
this topic or the subject matter, I do have to
say there is something to the scientific method that could
be applied that would be I think that would bolster
a lot of claims. Or okay, let me let me
give you an idea that I thought about. Okay, Let's say,
for example, you wanted to prove that psychic mediums were
a thing and that there were a group of people
out there who had the natural gift of seeing ghosts?
How would you go about proving that? And I thought
of an idea how one could prove that using the
scientific method. It would take which which I don't think
anyone's ever thought of doing. But you take a house
that you absolutely know is not haunted, do the research,
make sure there were no deaths in the vicinity, no
Native American sites, very recently built home. Right, maybe you
had one or two families. You ask them all these questions,
none of them have had any paranormal experiences, and you
make sure you establish that this house is definitely not haunted. Good.
You take a group of psychic mediums, don't give them
any information about the house, have them through a walkthrough,
and then you record what each person says, or you know,
you record the data what each person concludes. Right that
you established the control right once you've a statted. Now,
because what you're going for is a psychic medium to
go through that house and be like, nah, there's nothing here. Right.
You take those psychic mediums, the ones who say yeah,
I see this and that, you throw them out right,
clearly they fail the control group. So you take the
ones that pass the control group. You take him to
a house that's actually haunted but not famous. Right. You
know that multiple people have reported, but it's not like
the Sally House where it's got like this reputation. Right.
You take that group of psychic mediums, you take each one,
you have him through a walkthrough, and you see if
they all see the same thing. That's one way you
can apply to scientific method and prove the phenomena of psychics.
Not to say that science is in and of itself
is equipped to deal with the question of psychic mediums
or ghosts or whatever, but I think the scientific method
would still be useful.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I mean, there's certainly there's certainly been people
in this the broader scientific space like JB. Roan would
be a classic example with his experiments on you know,
ESP and the like, who was doing it within the
construction of you know, trying to have some methodology, and
he had some success, and you know, there seemed to
be the things he was studying that are worth pursuing.
And I still talked about within you know, the groups
you know, within people who are interested in this kind
of stuff. But so it is interesting. I guess there's
another problem as well, though, if the phenomenon behaves differently
to the type of phenomenon that science is used to
dealing with. Like let's just say that the phenomenon itself,
as some authors and thinkers have suggested, has a tricksterish element.
Then might that element intentionally mess with an experiment or
might it intentionally try to make the experiment succeed one
time and when it's done again, like you tend to
get in a scientific method, where would it then mess
with it? Is it unpredictable? Is it something that you
know you might do that horned House study, and then
they may go, well, we need to do it again.
And then another group of investigators or people applying the
method might come in and get different results. And that
mightn't be because your methodology is problematic, and it might be
because the phenomenon itself doesn't behave the way if you
were I don't know, going in there to study animals
that might live in a deserted house, or the way
you might be studying structural damage in a horned or
we know what, you know, invent whatever we want to
think about. Maybe this phenomenon itself is unpredictable. Maybe the
phenomenon itself behaves differently with different people, and you know
what I mean, that's so my suspicion is, it's just
it's like it's like, you know, trying to grab an
eel out of a barrel filled with you know, greasy
rope and they're all covered in oil, you know, to
try to get the answer to it. I don't think
your idea is a bad idea, and you know what,
to be honest, somebody should go out and do that
at a proper, you know, serious level.
Speaker 3: Heard of anyone trying something.
Speaker 2: No, well, that's maybe something that maybe that's something you
need to do. I'd be fascinated.
Speaker 3: It'd be hard to gather up to that. Many psychic mediums, man,
it'd be like hurting cats. They tend to I don't
know if you've met many psychic mediums, but they tend
to have a lot of idiosyncrasies and foibles in their personalities.
Speaker 2: That's true. You know what, I bet you could do
it if you were running it as a reality TV show,
because everybody likes a minute, you know.
Speaker 3: I think it's an experiment worth doing. Honestly, I think
if you do that, it actually takes out the trickster element,
because if you have a group of psychic mediums agreeing
on seeing the same entity or the same ghosts who
have no prior knowledge of the location. Right, see, it's
another it's one result if they all disagree with one another.
Like one person says, oh, I see the spirit of
a dead man and a dead woman upstairs. Another person says,
I just see the spirit of like five children. They
should all theoretically, if the phenomena exists as we understand,
it should be able to see the same spirits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Horrace Smith just made a point. He said,
experimental statistics are the easy part, design mistakes and trickery,
full gullible scientists.
Speaker 3: Right, you know what, I think.
Speaker 2: I think your ideas are great idea, Donnie. I think
it would be great as like a TV series or
a documentary, like we're setting out to prove you know,
once and.
Speaker 3: For all, Well, most of the times when they try
to set out to prove something. They're using all this
technology that you know, like the EVP and his em
meters and stuff, right, if they're dealing with an intelligent
entity and it doesn't want to be seen, it doesn't
want to be seen.
Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting you brought that up, particularly considering the
topic we're talking about tonight, because what we're suggesting about
proving the paranormal, can you do it? Is it, you know,
even achievable? Is it even desirable? That's clearly what people
who in every ghost hunting group in you know, these
great United States and the rest of the planet, think
they're doing when they're going out with this technology, right,
they think they're proving it.
Speaker 3: Right, but that technology is based off a number of
assumptions that they make about the phenomenon that they're just assumptions, right.
Speaker 2: Exactly, And there's a bias if you're going in there
and you're assuming that this is the spirits of the
dead or its demons or whatever you think it is
when you're going in and if it isn't that, if
it's a genuinely anomalous phenomenon which science has yet to
pin down, and even if even if there's an intelligence
behind it, there's other questions and which brings me to
another point, and that's the Philip experiment, when you know,
there was this attempt by academics to do essentially to
see if they couldn't conjure up you using traditional I think,
you know, spirit communication type techniques like a Ouiji board
and the like. Are totally fabricated entity. And we played
a great found footage film based on it at Midwest
we Infest last year. It wasn't the act, but it
was based on the study of the Philip experiment. Was
a very cool found footage film, but it was the
idea that could they create an entity just if they all,
you know, well, we'll name him Philip and he'll be
this age and then they actually got this entity coming through.
So there's those kind of interesting experiments that have been attempted,
and that says something else entirely about the phenomenon. It
either says that we ourselves are somehow projecting or that
there's something out there which is grabbing onto our assumptions
and then behaving in a chord with those assumptions.
Speaker 3: Well, scientific method it's got to be repeatable, right, it's
got to be repeatable, right, I think were you the
one who told me about that one guy? I think
it was like a YouTube video or a short film
or documentary or something where this guy goes out and
he has a satanic ritual curse intentionally put on himself
to see if it actually worked.
Speaker 2: No, and I don't think that was made to What
do you know about that? I'm curious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was a YouTube video, but a
guy literally went to a satanic ritual to see to
experiment to see if curses were real, and he had
an actual curse put on himself and apparently yeah he
I don't think it took very hit long for him
to regret the experiment.
Speaker 2: And was it a documentary or was it a.
Speaker 3: Hmmm, I have to I have to look it up.
I think it was like a YouTube documentary style, like
reality show kind of thing where this guy who was
running the channel literally out, let's see if this stuff
is real or not, and so he goes and gets
a curse performed on him on purpose.
Speaker 2: Interesting. I'd like to see it.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's brave. I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't do it either. Matt Matt Auckland ak
Flat Rockland, a good friend of mine on the shows,
commented that the studies Andrew Gallimore and friends are doing
with long duration d MT, you're finding that people see
the same entities and terrain. I'm not totally familiar with
those experiments, but I'm certainly aware of studies and people
who've fooled around with experimenting with things like d MT
and ayahuasca and other hallucinogens and find that people undergoing
the experience have undergoing the dry have similar experiences. So
that's that's something that can be studied as well.
Speaker 3: You're right, man, I found it okay cool Called A
Cursed Man a cursed documentary film that is currently free
to watch on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Oh is it a short or a feature length?
Speaker 3: Or the feature length? Oh, documentary? Tell them? It's called
a Cursed Man, where the filmmaker seeks out some of
the world's most powerful dark magic practitioners and ask them
to put a curse on him to see to run
a dark social experiment to see if the stuff actually works. Wow,
I'm gonna check this out.
Speaker 2: Oh. I thought maybe you'd seen it, Okay, so you
haven't watched it? Ey though?
Speaker 3: No, I watched part of it. I mean I remember
seeing like the idea of it, and I was like, oh,
that's brave. I couldn't recall if you're the one who
told me about it, though.
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't me. I'd never heard about it before.
I'm looking forward to it, though.
Speaker 3: A cursed man is what it's called.
Speaker 2: Horace made a comment Donnie's experiment would not test or possibilities,
but it would test some alternatives.
Speaker 3: Is what. No, it would be an alternative because you
have to test. Because here's the thing about proving ghosts.
People are doing the same tied techniques over and over
and what are the results they get a random VP
of something that might have said a word or like,
you know, the results. We've been doing the same experiments
for years and the results are not impressive. I think
we people need to start thinking more outside of box
if we're looking to actually get real results, not to
prove this stuff definitively, but at least get better data.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's one of the problems I
think is currently the well. I mean, I'm in two
minds because of course, I think, like everybody in this space,
it would be nice to have you know some something
that we could somehow pin down with a better collection
of data or you know, a better methodology to approach it.
But then the forty in in me just thinks that
it's not achievable at all within the current paradigms that
are constructed. So we have a lot of data anyway,
I mean, we have thousands of years have reported anomalous
phenomena in whatever of these fields you want to look at,
whether it's lake monsters or hairy man or UFOs or ghosts.
But perhaps one of the problems, Donnie, and I'd like
to hear what you think about this, Maybe it's the data.
Like Jacques Valet, who's I think one of the greatest
thinker is ever in the UFO space. He was an
information scientist and an astronomer I think his academic backgrounds.
But he used to say the problem was extracting the
signal from the noise. Do you think that's part of
the problem with the data that we have in these
fields getting there? There's so much data, it's just so noisy,
and somewhere in there might be relevant, you know, accounts, relevant,
you know, data points, but extracting it from this sea
of hoaxes and misidentifications and exaggerations, and maybe the phenomenon
itself doing things irrationally. Who knows, it's difficult to actually
find that sign within the noise.
Speaker 3: I think that's definitely a lot more apt depending on
the individual phenomenon. For example, I think that's very true
for something like the UFO phenomenon, because there's a lot
of noise, there's a lot of hoaxes, there's a lot
of misidentification because at the end of the day, if
you think about it, it's distant things in the sky.
That kind of thing is not very controllable, right, So yeah,
there is going to be a lot of Okay, the
difference with ghosts. Okay, with ghosts, the environment is a
lot more controllable because you have a specified location. You
have control over that location. You know, you can control
the parameters or whatever environmental things to suit the needs
you know exactly the location of whatever entity you're trying
to prove, right, you can't do that with cryptids or
with uf very true. That's why I'm like, if you're
really looking to experiment and really figure out and get
creative and apply to scientific method, it's got to be
something like ghosts or psychics, because you want to be
able to control as many variables as you can. Right,
is this.
Speaker 2: Something you yourself would like to do one day? Like
can you can you imagine setting up something like this
and and and doing it?
Speaker 3: I mean it would take a pretty monumental effort to organize,
but maybe not because nobody's ever thought to do it.
You wouldn't need to get a bunch of self proclaimed
psychic mediums to volunteer, you know. And then that question
is then their legitimacy. Legitimacy is being tested, and you
know how some people are feeling weird about all that.
So all right, have you have you done like an
actual paranormal investigation? No?
Speaker 2: I never have, I vote you know. It's it's funny
because now Samantha, my girlfriend who was in the chat before,
people were talking about our compatibility with our star signs,
which was nice. We've started doing a little I don't
know if you watched home movie Legend Trip yet.
Speaker 3: I did check it out, thanks man.
Speaker 2: So we're filming literally legend trips like going to you know,
do one on the bes of bree Road or you
were foething. We're doing another one this coming weekend the
ho Dag. So I suspect that sometime in the not
too distant future will end up going to shoot something
like that, you know, an actual paranormal investigation. I myself
never have in the past. I'm not sure how how
healthy or risky it is to communicate with spiritual entities
or other intelligences when you don't really know what they are.
I mean, you hear the obvious dangers of people bringing
hitchhikers home with entities attaching to them and having all
kinds of problems, and sometimes they can be quite serious.
But I do think there's something there I have. I'm
skeptical of what it is and what a lot of
the popular interpretations of it are, but anybody who listens
or watches regularly knows that I know there's a genuine
there's genuine anomalies out there. So I've always been concerned
about going out and trying to engage, you know, an
entity that I don't know what it is. I think
if I believed it was a ghost or something, you
know what I mean, I'd be like, Okay, well let's go.
But I think because I'm not sure what it is,
I'm not sure how wise it is for me to go,
ha ha, let's go and talk to this. I just
don't know. There's something about it which makes me a
little cringing. That said, I suspect I would film something
like that, but I don't know why myself would want
to go and engage. So Johnny, have you gone out
and done something like that?
Speaker 3: Or several times and every time it was like, oh, yep,
I think ghosts are actually real. But the thing is,
I was my own direct personal experiment or experience. I
can't go around and being like, oh, off to the world,
be like, gooes are real everyone, I have definitive proof.
I can't do that. It's going back to like similar
to like my Jason story. You can get one hundred
percent definitive proof if it's like a direct personal experience,
and I've had those experience experiences. I saw a dude
get attacked by a ghost, like literally right in front
of my face, and then everyone else is with me,
and we all looked at it around each other, We're like, yep,
that really happened.
Speaker 2: Gosh.
Speaker 3: But all I can do is just tell that story
and hope people believe me. But for me personally, that
was one hundred percent proof. Yep, ghosts are all definitely real.
Speaker 2: Did you ever regret any of those experiences or did
you ever bring anything home with you? Or did you
ever have a feeling of menace when you were engaging
in this?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Is it with a negative experiences? I guess what I'm musking.
Speaker 3: No, because there are I think a lot of the
ways you protect yourself from that kind of stuff is
very common sensical, right Number one, don't don't be disrespectful,
don't be antagonizing, you know, yeah, I would do like
maybe do a little salt or some stage have an
eye em bracelet like, you know, just ask around, try
to find out in the folklore what are some common
things that people do, and whether or not you agree
you agree with them? If it's like cut that common enough, hey,
there must be it might it's at least worth doing.
But yeah, I hadn't. I never had any personal negative experience.
But I've seen firsthand, like other people like drugly in
front of me get completely like turn catatonic, gosh like
completely like right in front of my face. And then
I was with other people and we all looked at
each other, all wide eyed, and we're like, oh, man,
this crap is.
Speaker 2: Real and did that The person who had that experience
regretted afterwards was that like, when I'm not doing this again,
this is there something evil or right?
Speaker 3: I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't get that from him
because because this was a weekend thing, a weekend long thing.
For the rest of the trip, that guy was stone cold, catatonic.
Speaker 2: Goodness gracious, and he was just in the corner crying
like did that make did that make you ever go
I don't think I should do this again? Or did
it make you more careful or weary or.
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, let me clarify some of the things about
the story. Right, So it was a fairly large group.
It was for the Confessionals with Tony Merkele. So you know,
I was a big fan of Tony Merkel at the
time and the Confessionals podcast. So he he organized his
trip for like hardcore fans to go. So I went.
There was like I'd say, like fifteen of us, twenty
of us, okay, and we all went as a group
and it was this big, famously haunted mansion and we
stayed there for the weekend, right two nights, and we
split up into groups, and we all did our own investigations,
you know, we had different equipment and everything. And there
was this one guy in the group who wasn't even
interested in ghosts. He was more of a cryptid, bigfoot guy.
The guy there just didn't take the thing seriously at all.
He was just he was cracking jokes. He was there
flirting with all the married women, which was kind of gross.
He was just trying to be like the center of attention.
And most of the people there, they didn't really like
him because it was pretty obvious what he was doing.
Like he wasn't even a ghost guy. He was a
bigfoot guy. So he took none of this stuff seriously.
And even as the psychic mediums who were like the
caretakers of the property, were giving their speeches and their
introductory he was like just kind of goofing off the
whole time. And I remember one of them looked over
at the other one they were like, oh, man, this
guy's going to get it, because if he goes into
this thing all disrespectful like that, he's going to get it.
And I remember it as me, Tony and a few
other people in one room we were doing an investigation
with like these em meters. All of a sudden, we
hear like this wailing coming from the hallway outside the room,
like an ugly cry, like if a four year old
girl got like slapped, and like, you know that kind
of ugly cry, like the really loud, ugly cry. Right,
so we hear that, we run outside and it's that
same guy, and yeah, he's just like hysterically crying at
the top of his lungs, and everyone the whole group
is just like, what the hell is going And the
other people in the group they said like, yeah, this
guy's just you know, joking around in his group. And
apparently when it happened, he said he felt a pair
of hold arms wrapped around him and they were from
like a little child's arms because they weren't very high
on him, and all of a sudden, whatever being that
was dumped all this emotional psychic sauce right into this guy,
and the guy blew a gasket and he was crying hysterically.
And then for the rest of the trip, the guy
was just in the corner. Damn, this stuff is real.
I remember me and Tony We're looking at each other,
was like, yo, this is real. As a heart attack.
Good good, But again, all we could do is just
tell the story and just hope people believe us. But
for me, that was one hundred percent true, like proof,
like yep, supernatural is one hundred percent true. That's all
the convincing I needed.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think where they smoke this fire, I
think these places that have all these kind of reports,
there's some kind of energy, there's something there. I'm going
to just roll into a few questions for you because
they've been building up throughout the night and we've just
been chatting. Uh there's one from Kaidju Ninja eighty five
who asks, has Donnie ever experienced possible cryptid activity?
Speaker 3: H No, I've experienced psychic stuff ghost up, and never
cryptied stuff. I just don't go out in the woods
very much because I'm not a very outdoorsy guy. I'm
more of a city person, so I'm not there randomly
for me to encounter something like that, although I can
say that if I ever did, I would probably crap myself.
Speaker 2: It might be a friendly cryptid and horace Smith we
mentioned before Professor Emmeris of astronomy and physics at Michigan
State University. Else can psychics carry ghosts into a house.
That's a good question.
Speaker 3: I believe it's only if they have that ghost permission
and they work in tandem. I don't think that they
could do it against their will unless they're doing like
some kind of weird dark magic stuff which should mess
with anyway.
Speaker 2: Okay. I wonder sometimes if people instead of places are
home that as well, like sometimes it is in the
indivir I definitely think so, yeah, it's wanted. We have
a question again from Matt Rockland. From Matt Auckland, Akay,
Flat Rockland, what do you think follows folks home from
the skin Walker Ranch and places like that?
Speaker 3: I can't tell you definitive, definitively what I what I
think it is. I could just say that I think
certain people are definitely more vulnerable to being followed home.
I always say like, and this is something they always say,
like if you have any kind of like chronic illness,
or you're dealing with like some kind of mental illness
issues or something where like you as your your overall
person is vulnerable, don't go to those these things. Don't
don't leave them many openings. They also say, don't you know,
don't take any drugs or drink, don't do it the
night before. I would try to like eat clean and
make sure to stay sober, try to stay sober. But yeah,
those kinds of things, like very common sensical things like
if you thought about it, if there was a thing
that would attach to you, and if there wasn't opening,
you know, that kind of stuff. I try to abide
by them, Like I don't have a set set of rules,
but just be respectful, have common sense, and take care
of yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll make that will make sense. I do wonder
if if even and you've obviously had much more experience
in the field looking at these things, but I do
wonder if even engaging these entities and opens a kind
of door, you know, and whether that's going on ghost
hunts or whether it's doing you know, Ouiji board or
attempting some kind of you know, psychic communication with the alva.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I'll tell you specifically what
I did when my first time and every time I've
gone to an investigation go to a place that I
know is haunted. See. I used to do a lot
of martial arts as a kid. I don't know if
you've done, but like, if you ever did traditional martial arts.
What's the first thing you do when you walk into
a dojo and you try to take off your shoes? Well, yeah, right, so,
and they say, the reason why you do that is
you want to show respect to your ancients, your elders,
and whatever spirits are there. Right, there's a very folklourish,
supernatural component to that. And maybe so I always believe
that there were some legs I had a martial arts
background myself. I look at me, big surprise, right, So,
but I did.
Speaker 2: What I did A few opts my day. What did
you do?
Speaker 3: What was your taikwondo and judo?
Speaker 2: Nice?
Speaker 3: So in that mansion, I remember on that particular trip
where that thing happened with that guy, every time I
walked into a different room, like for the first time,
I always bound like I was out of dojo, and
I always just say very quickly to myself, I'm not
here to mess with you, so please don't mess with me.
I'm just here to meet these people and just hang out,
no disrespect. And that was like the little thought I
would do as I would bow every time I walked
into a room for the first time.
Speaker 2: Interesting do you think we've talked about a little bit
before on the show that there might be a different
cultural approach in Asia to dealing with these type of
things to traditional, you know, Western culture's ways of dealing
with these kind of things. Well maybe not even traditional
might be the wrong way modern Western ways of dealing
with these kind of things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's also a lot of I actually think
the more interesting thing is how many things are similar
because that whole bowing thing, I think that lean lends
credence to the same idea that a lot of Western
paranormal people have was that you basically just make sure
you're not disrespectful. Because back to my earlier story, who
was the guy that got the brunt of all that?
It was a disrespectful guy.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then I asked those psychic medium caretakers afterwards.
I was like, you knew this was gonna happen, right,
They're like, yeah, we knew, And I was like, how'd
you know? And they're like, because every group that comes
in here, there's always that one guy who's just there
because his girlfriend is there and they don't take it
seriously and they make a joke out of everything, and
they're they're always the ones who get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting. That's your experiences the people who
aren't giving it enough reverence or paying enough attention to
the reality of the situation there, And that makes sense.
Speaker 3: I guess there were some other weirdos there though, Like
there are other people. So the other thing is like
the far the other end of it, or the people
who are like too respectful to the point where they're
like obsessed with it. That's another form of vulnerability. I
feel like people have again common sense, right, so like
I feel like you just need to have a healthy mentality,
you know. I would recommend for you personally, I really
think you should do, like for especially for the show
that you're doing. You should do like an overnight investigation
at a location that you know is haunted, or like
a at a haunted B and B C. For yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that might be a good.
Speaker 3: Show, supernatural but controllable environment. I mean, you can't force
yourself to have a UFO experience. What are you gonna
do just walk around start the sky all day?
Speaker 2: Well there is the C Did you did you watch
the C five episode that we dropped on Sunday?
Speaker 3: That one I haven't seen yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a new episode. We went a couple of
weeks ago, Sam and I went. We were invited to
a private C five event thanks to Melissa Kine, who
is a friend of ours and runs Contact Modalities, which sat, yeah,
I think you'll enjoy it, and and Zach Screedy, who
runs the event, who's a lovely guy. And Sam and
I went to the event, and I don't want to
spoil the episode, but we saw anomalous things in the sky.
Speaker 3: You saw for yourself, yeah, was it enough to convince
you personally?
Speaker 2: Well, I already think there are normalous things. I just
don't know what they are, do you know what I mean?
So I've I I don't. I think my problem is
I think somebody who sits in my perspective is well,
it looks at things from my perspective. Rather is that
I don't doubt that people having anomalous experiences all the time.
I don't know what they are, you know, Like, so
it's not enough to convince me that they're extraterrestrials, but
it's enough to convince me that, yes, people see strange
things in the sky, but.
Speaker 3: There's something there's some legs that is whole C five things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think there's legs to you know, widgi boards,
and I think there's legs to you know, people who
go out into the woods and you know, try to
connect with things in the woods, whether those things bigfoot
or you know, gnomes or the fairfolk or whatever. I
think people can have a dialogue. Of dialogue might be
the wrong. I think they can have an experience with
the other right, But I don't know what that is
that they're experiencing. I really don't. I don't know what's it,
and I don't know how much of it is comes
from us, comes from our own in a space, and
I don't know how much of it is separate. When
I say separate, I mean how different is the experience
you have when you do it might manifest differently, but
I don't know if when you have a wigi board experience,
if it's particularly different from having a C five experience.
To be honest, you're contacting, you're asking for a response
from something which you know is an US, and you're
getting a response from something that isn't US. That doesn't
mean I think that when somebody is using a wigi board,
they're talking to the spirits of the dead, And it
doesn't mean, I necessarily think when somebody is doing a
C five event that it's extraterrestrials that are piloting the
things above them. But I think we are. I'm fairly
certain that we can elicit engagement with something which is
I don't want to say entirely separate, because I don't
know how connected we are. I don't know how much
this is, you know, a co creation theory, like Greg
Bishop writes about in the late Robbie Grahame's book with
a collection of essays called UFOs, reframing the debate. The
idea is that we might be partaking in the creation
of what we're seeing, but that doesn't mean there isn't
an external intelligence from us feeding into that experience as well.
So yeah, I do think there are legs to all
the all the I even think when people and you know,
I don't think there's Harry hominids running around the woods
of North America. But I do think people are having
experiences when they're out in the woods. I think they're
encountering something.
Speaker 3: I really need to see this episode now, is.
Speaker 2: It yet or we dropped it on Sunday? It's there.
If people go to a home movie Legendship dot com
or just home movie Legendship on on YouTube. They'll they'll
find it. It's uh, Sam and I really enjoyed this one,
and it was it's it's it's a fun episode.
Speaker 3: I found it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think Sam, because I don't know
if there's a moulderin Scully to us, but I probably
am the Mulder, even though I'm more of a John
Keel and Sam's more, you know, she's more just you know.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you though, I'm curious. So when you
were when you did finally witnessed this phenomenon in the sky,
what was going through your head? What was what was
was it like? Was it? Were you excited? Were you
was there adrenaline? Was there? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I was, I was excited. I don't know if there
was I was excited. But the thing is too, when
I'm when i'm filming, I'm always in the space of
all I got to capture, you know, people's reactions, and
I day it's like a war I guess it's like
you hear and it's I'm not comparing myself to a
war photographer because I'd probably be miserable and I probably
be terrified. But it's like I've read interviewers with war
photographers that are attached when they're taking the photos. Do
you know what I mean when? And I think it's
similar to that when I'm filming anything, Like Sam will
tell you that I get in this weird head and
it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: What you're too much in filmmaker mode.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I'm like, how am I? You know? What?
Can I get to make this a you know?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 2: I think in a way, I think and Sam can
correct me if I'm wrong. In the chat, I think
in a way Sam was even though she was filming
as well because we had two cameras. In a way,
I think Sam was more excited. I was excited too,
But I really think because she I suspected some I
suspect that we would see things, and I think Sam thought,
there's no way we're going to see anything. But anyway,
that comes out in the episode.
Speaker 3: So I don't want to speak. If Godzilla were a
real thing, you'd be that one guy who, like everyone's
running away from Godzilla and you're the one guy comes
out with a camera.
Speaker 2: Like, dude, move and then he squashes on squashes me flat.
Speaker 3: Probably I need to get this shot and he just
gets stomped on pretty much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a great experience.
Speaker 3: Remember did you watch God's on the Minus one?
Speaker 2: I did so, and what the and there's God's Minus
zero coming out.
Speaker 3: So we were in that one scene where there were
those like Japanese filmmakers on the roof and they're like, oh,
we got to capture does it the gods wligious smash
the roof?
Speaker 2: That'd be me. I would have been the crew. My
daughter loved that movie is well, she's such a fan
of card I raised from all the old ones, so
she was big enough to see that one when it
came out. And obviously now we've watched all the you know,
cong versus God's the whole new you know, monarchy universe stuff.
Speaker 3: So it's gonna be bittersweet when that next one came
comes out. You know, two of those actors have already left.
Speaker 2: Yeah that we we I know, we lost the little
girl who was the other one.
Speaker 3: We lost Sam Neil?
Speaker 2: Oh are we Samuel in? Is Samuel in the TV
show Monarch or No?
Speaker 3: Sam Neil is going to be in this next Oh.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, I think of a Jurassic Park.
Speaker 3: I was It's his final No, it's his final movie.
It's his final film.
Speaker 2: Oh, I did you know what? I didn't even know that,
Sam says, I was more excited talking about the both
of us. And but then you would be happy to
be hit by a car to get the shots you.
Speaker 3: Guys, You guys have to do like a paranormal like
haunted location. That's got to be one of one of
the places. I would would you know what I would do.
I would just research like the most haunted location in
your state and just spend the night there.
Speaker 2: In film it, Well, Sam and I stayed in a
really haunted hotel in Milwaukee. But at the time I
didn't even know.
Speaker 3: You didn't even know it was I didn't even know.
Speaker 2: It was haunted. Sam had a question I have. I've
been so engaged with you. I'm sorry to the chat.
I haven't been engaging at all. Sam asked, how do
we know ghosts are more control than any other phenomenon.
How can we assume that they will stay in the
same location.
Speaker 3: Well, only because it's the location that gets reported, right,
like if there was a ghost of if it was
like the ghosts of the Sally House, and then you
know she's being reported out of Walmart, like down the road.
That's one thing. But what's famous is the Sally House
because all those experiences are being centralized in that one
location that is predictable, right, It's the most predictable thing
of all the phenomena that are the most like you
can you know at least you're in the right spot.
Whereas let's say you go to the LBL looking for
dog Man. How big is the LBL? How big is
that Davy Crockett National Force or whatever? Right?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: She want to be able to cover every inch in
one look in one investigation. I mean, the human human
capability of covering ground can only take you so far. Which,
by the way, I think if people were really serious
about finding cryptids, they shouldn't be hiking into woods or
trukking into woods. They should be using drones.
Speaker 2: Just quickly, just quickly. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point,
just quickly dug four five four, three hours. Do you
think people joking around, et cetera doing that to mask
bear fear of what might happen? This is obviously talking
about the type of paranormal investigations you've been on, Donnie.
Speaker 3: That particular guy, No, that particular guy was there to peacock,
to show off and to alpha of everyone. It was
pretty gross and it was pretty obvious what he was doing.
Interesting And because he was doing that before we even
got to the location, like we had got to a
couple other places, and he was like that the whole time.
Speaker 2: Interesting. W Robinson one seven oh two says, I think
New Orleans is a place where the veil is thin
between this world and the next. I've been in New
Orleans and I certainly found it super dark and super weird. There,
I felt, and I'm not somebody who walks into places
like all, there's a presence. I felt a heaviness when
I was in New Orleans. I felt something was a
little off. Fun place to go about drinking and being
an idiot, but it still felt something was.
Speaker 3: I've never been there, but it's always the place I
wanted to visit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe maybe we can all meet up
there one day. You mem Sam can come.
Speaker 3: Maybe you should do an episode of you going on
investigation with like all of us.
Speaker 2: That would be phenomenal. We have to work that out.
That would be so.
Speaker 3: We missed such an opportunity because when we were at
Crossing Realms. It was at Harnam Museum.
Speaker 2: We weren't doing that. If I'd been shooting the show,
then I totally would have gone, let's go do the
do an episode in that horn and museum.
Speaker 3: We got to talk about this because I was telling
the group before. I was like, next time we all
get together like this, let's not do a convention. Let's
just us get together and do an investigation and just
film content for our respective shows.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like that'd be a much more fun and
productive time. The conference was great and all, but it
was a lot of work and we didn't even have
time to like really soak it in and enjoy it.
You know.
Speaker 2: Well, no, that's true, and I think I think, yeah,
you could still do it like an annual meet up
with all with everybody you wanted there, and not have
to have the pressure of having stands and speakers and.
Speaker 3: They actually productive because then we could all come on
with our recording equipment and film it and have a
lot of great content.
Speaker 2: That would be amazing. Yeah, we're getting lots of suggestions
for shows in the chatnut Squatch Mama says Baraboo, which
isn't too far from here. Squatch Mama. We actually almost
did something in Baraboo recently and we probably still are
going to and w Robinson says, Dean and Sam should
come to the Myrders plantation here in.
Speaker 3: Far Have you been traveling for this, for this show
that you're doing now for Home Legend Home Movie Legends trips?
Speaker 2: We well, we've only I'm trying to think, what's the first.
We haven't left with Wisconsin yet, although we planned so.
I think the where would the furthest where we've been
north in the state to Rhyanland where the hotel the
hodag Legend is, and we've been south to Bray Road,
which is you know, down kind of Milwaukee Way. And
this more recent trip was also we're in the Bernies,
but it was probably it was only probably an hour
and a half from us in the Bernies. It was
just another Boonies, you know what I mean. So we
haven't done a long one yet. I think what we'd
like to get up to speed to do is go, Okay,
we're going to do a two week trip and we're
going to hit these five locations, you know what I mean,
and drive and do a road trip and get five
or six episodes that'll be in the next ones, that
Wisconsin one as well. The one we're shooting this coming
weekend is well, so you.
Speaker 3: Thought about down the road doing locations where you would
have to fly out to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would not be adverse to flying, so we're
eventually down the road. I think, have you got somewhere
for us, Dony?
Speaker 3: I noticed there's a lot of people in this paranormal
fields who don't like flying. I find it's so hard. Yeah,
we're probably going to this year steal. Sam and I
will probably fly at least two or three times to
film festivals and things, so we're not adverse to flying
at all.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, we'd fly somewhere. They're driving, driving so
much fun. And Sam wants to go to Louisiana, so
maybe we will go to Louisiana to shoot something. There's
all kinds of stuff you could do in Louisiana. You
know what you could do falc Monster as well. You
could go that Texakhana kind of part, and you could
go and do weird stuff in New Orleans. Anyway, people
don't want to hear my plans for home movie Legendship
John it Man, it was great talking to you. I
can't wait to talk to you again. I think you
and I and Jason McLean are doing a show sometime
soon on your.
Speaker 3: Chair planning in By the way, can I plug myself
real quick?
Speaker 2: So I was there. That's why I'm thinking too.
Speaker 3: For those of you who've been following my show, you
don't notice that there's been I haven't put out any
content in the last few months, mostly because of my
move and life's gotten the way. My saturdays have gotten busy.
But I do plan on putting out content, but it's
not going to be like what I was doing before
it was just like a weekly live I'm going to
be doing my I plan on making my episodes to
be projects that I put like a couple of weeks into.
I've recently been learning, like deep diving into video editing.
I've been teaching myself these past few weeks for the
very first time.
Speaker 2: So you enjoy just quickly. You enjoying it because I
this is my forte. I guess I love editing so much.
Speaker 3: I'm enjoying it because it's finally allowing me to tell
the story that I want to tell. Because I have
these like really out there podcast episodes on my show,
but without the without the use of video editing, it's
just a static picture and the live stream screen, you know,
live stream and the stream yard or whatever. That's all
it is. Maybe you could throw up a picture or
put up a screen share for a YouTube video or something.
But with video editing, I'm like, I feel like I'm
finally able to execute my vision. That's fantastic and that's
a very empowering feeling. So this coming Saturday, and Donnie
cho says stuff will be my first fully edited episode. Wow,
please check it out. I put several weeks into this. Well,
I learned at video editing for this, and uh, if
you are easily offended by low brow humor, I would say,
don't watch it. It is rated R. It's a heavy
rated R.
Speaker 2: So wow, well, Johnny, let me know when it's that
I'll share it.
Speaker 3: And by the way, it is a debate between me
and Jason McClean about Buddhism versus Christianity. Oh wow, deep
and profound debate, but hilarious, hilarity and menace ensues so
that the episode.
Speaker 2: Oh man, I can't wait to watch it myself.
Speaker 3: You got to watch it this weekend and tell me
what you think. Tell me what you think about my
editing skills. They're very like basic, but I will man,
I'm glad.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a great It's a very empowering thing
to be able to cut together a story. In fact,
in many ways, I think it's the most In many ways,
it's my favorite part of the filmmaking process. As much
as I like shooting, as much as like being on
location or set, When you're in the edit, you're actually
putting together a story, and that's a powerful feeling that
you you know, it's just putting audio and video and
music and blending it to your wheel and.
Speaker 3: It's really time consuming though, But I think that most
of it is just because I'm such a new beaditor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get quicker at it. Yeah, you get quicker.
People in the chat sound excited about it as well,
So that's good. Well man, Yeah, we'll check out. Donnie
Cho says stuff this Sunday. The latest video drops this Saturday, Saturday.
Speaker 3: Okay, I would say the title, but there's an F
bomb in there. It's like, yeah the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's you can just say title f bomb
then the rest of it if you want to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just Jason McLean Christian.
Speaker 2: Af I'm sure Jason was over the moon about that
as well. God bless him. Oh yeah, Johnny Man, it
was such a delight to talk to you. It always is,
and I'm looking forward to doing your show with Jason
sometime soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gonna be fun. We'll plan it out, we'll
hash it out.
Speaker 2: And until I get to talk to you again, Donnie,
which hopefully will be very shortly when I do that episode,
I just it's.
Speaker 3: Going to be soon. It's gonna be soon. Jason really
wants to do this episode. By the way he keeps
messaging me about it, he must.
Speaker 2: Be prepared to try to give me the philosophical beating
that he hopes to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll sit back and let you guys do that.
Speaker 2: I was I was teasing today, like I'm just gonna
drop a few stunners and throw down some beerstone cold style.
That'll be the show. Yeah, few stars, one, two, three,
and our pound biers like Austin back in the glory days.
Speaker 3: Just be sure to pause an emoti lot just to
give the editor a little bit of a we're cutting
everything together.
Speaker 2: That's a good point. That's a good point. Well, Donnie,
we'll chat soon and I'm looking forward to it. And
until I talk to you, Donnie, and until I talk
to everybody else out there, which will be same Weird time,
which is Thursday, nine pm Central, Same Weird network, the
Untold Radio Network. Please keep it weird,