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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 6: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening.
Speaker 3: This episode of True Murder is brought to you by Audible,
Speaker 3: the world's leading name in digital audiobooks, with over one
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Speaker 3: slash True Murder Today and experience Audible audiobooks. Hitchhiking from Eugene, Oregon,
Speaker 3: through northern California nineteen seventy seven, twenty year old Colleen
Speaker 3: stan thumbed to ride into Hell. Her kidnappers, a sadistic
Speaker 3: lumber mill worker Cameron Hooker and his battered wife Janice,
Speaker 3: subjected her to seven years of torture and sensory deprivation.
Speaker 3: She was made a sex slave, kept locked in a
Speaker 3: wooden box and brain washed into believing that an underground
Speaker 3: network of sadists would recapture her if she attempted to escape.
Speaker 3: Did Colleen fall in love with Cameron and make herself
Speaker 3: a willing partner in a love triangle? As the hooker's
Speaker 3: defense lawyer asserted, The jury found otherwise convinced by the
Speaker 3: evidence marshaled by co author Maguire, state prosecutor in the case,
Speaker 3: a trial that journalist Carlin Norton attended in nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 3: The book not for the squeamish. This harrowing tale shuttles
Speaker 3: between the courtroom and the grizzly doings in the hooker's basement.
Speaker 3: The book that we're featuring this evening is Perfect Victim,
Speaker 3: the true story of the Girl in the Box by
Speaker 3: the district attorney who prosecuted her captor. With my special guest,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Carlin Norton. Welcome back to the program
Speaker 3: and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Carla Norton, Thank.
Speaker 7: You Dan for having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 3: All is a pleasure. This is I've mentioned before, this
Speaker 3: is a true crime classic and it's going to be
Speaker 3: a treat for everyone, especially me. I've loved this book
Speaker 3: for years, and we finally get to get you to
Speaker 3: talk about this incredible, incredible story. So let's start off with.
Speaker 3: This book was put on the reading list for the
Speaker 3: FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, and it was a number one
Speaker 3: best selling New York Times bestseller. Tell us a little
Speaker 3: bit about your background. Pardon me, sorry, I said that.
Speaker 7: Surprised me.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now tell us a little bit about your background, Carla,
Speaker 3: and tell us how you came to be the author
Speaker 3: of Perfect Victim.
Speaker 7: Well, that is an unusual story. I actually was living
Speaker 7: in Tokyo, Japan when this case broke, and I was
Speaker 7: working full time as an associate editor with the Japanese
Speaker 7: edition of Readers Digest. I had just finished editing a
Speaker 7: book when this story started hitting the newspaper headlines. And
Speaker 7: what hit me immediately was that it was Red Bluff, California,
Speaker 7: and I grew up in Reading, which is just thirty
Speaker 7: miles north of there, so from the distance of Tokyo,
Speaker 7: this is virtually my backyard. And when I first saw
Speaker 7: the headlines that this woman claimed have been held captive
Speaker 7: for seven years, I just didn't believe the story. I
Speaker 7: thought that's ridiculous, that couldn't possibly happen in Red Bluff,
Speaker 7: and the AP Wire Service kept running stories about it,
Speaker 7: and I was fascinated. And it just happened that this
Speaker 7: broke shortly before I was going on vacation back to
Speaker 7: visit my family in California, and while I was there,
Speaker 7: I learned more about the case, and it was just
Speaker 7: one of those cases that I and stop asking questions
Speaker 7: because of the mind control issues, the slavery contract, the
Speaker 7: wife that was involved, the just the bizarreness of this
Speaker 7: case was outside of anything I'd ever heard of. I'd
Speaker 7: never heard of Stockholm syndrome, I didn't know about abusive
Speaker 7: relationships to this extent, and I thought, this is just
Speaker 7: an extraordinary case, and somebody's going to write about it.
Speaker 7: And I had, just, like I say, just finished working
Speaker 7: on a book as an editor of a book by
Speaker 7: a KGB agent who spied in Japan and then defected
Speaker 7: to the United States, and so I had never thought
Speaker 7: that I would write true crime, but I just became
Speaker 7: kind of fixated on this case. So I did what
Speaker 7: you're not supposed to do. I could call an agent
Speaker 7: in New York. I told him the story and he said,
Speaker 7: you're living where in Tokyo. I see. And if he
Speaker 7: had said, well, I'm sorry, but there's no way you
Speaker 7: can write the story, I probably wouldn't have pursued it.
Speaker 7: He said, well, quit your job with Reader's Digest, come
Speaker 7: back to the States, cover the trial. This is what
Speaker 7: you need to do. And he laid it out for me,
Speaker 7: and so, not knowing what I was getting into at all,
Speaker 7: that's what I did. I quit my job. They came
Speaker 7: back to the States, and I attended the trial and
Speaker 7: then ended up co authoring Perfect Victim with Christie MacGuire,
Speaker 7: the prosecutor.
Speaker 3: Okay, Carl, let's go back now. You mentioned that you, interestingly,
Speaker 3: you grew up in Reading, which is the closest place.
Speaker 3: But in proximity, it's about one hundred and thirty miles
Speaker 3: from Sacramento. So tell us where Red Bluff, California is
Speaker 3: in northern California and in relation to other places that
Speaker 3: we might know more off not from California.
Speaker 7: Sure, it would be northeast of San Francisco. And if
Speaker 7: you start in Sacramento, which is California's capital, and go
Speaker 7: up the Sacramento Valley, you're actually following the Sacramento River.
Speaker 7: The headwaters of the Sacramento are up there by Lake Shafta,
Speaker 7: and the Sacramento runs right through Reading and Red Bluff
Speaker 7: down to Sacramento and then out the Delta to the
Speaker 7: to the Bay area. So it's it's at the end
Speaker 7: of a valley. It's kind of a rural. It's a
Speaker 7: small town still, and it was smaller then, with a
Speaker 7: lumber mill and cattle ranchers. You know, an annual rodeo,
Speaker 7: one high school, and you know, a few older Victorian homes,
Speaker 7: but nothing fancy. I mean, it wasn't a place where
Speaker 7: there were a lot of tourists. Uh, you know, it's
Speaker 7: more kind of the hunting fishing community that that sort
Speaker 7: of mill.
Speaker 3: You right now, tell us a little bit about Cameron Hooker.
Speaker 3: His father's Harold and his mother is Lorena Hooker. So
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about his background, his early life,
Speaker 3: and where he's originally from and where they're from.
Speaker 7: You know what I'm going to I'm going to forget exactly.
Speaker 7: I remember he has a younger brother whose name is Dexter.
Speaker 7: But the thing that came up about you, you would
Speaker 7: think that someone who became the sort of criminal would
Speaker 7: have a you know, a background of abuse or you know,
Speaker 7: acting out, But there really wasn't anything that came to
Speaker 7: the fore. Now granted, his family isn't going to come
Speaker 7: up and say, oh, yes he was, we abused him
Speaker 7: as a child, but they said he was no trouble.
Speaker 7: That it was. And everybody said, if you you know,
Speaker 7: if you lined up ten guys, Cameron would be the
Speaker 7: last one you would pick for this kind of thing
Speaker 7: because he was very quiet and kept to himself. And
Speaker 7: what came out in the trial is that he became
Speaker 7: fixated as a teenager on this idea of kidnapping a
Speaker 7: girl and holding her captive. That was his teenage fantasy.
Speaker 7: And he collected pornography and that was like some boys
Speaker 7: now might you know, get obsessed about computers or some sports.
Speaker 7: That was his obsession, was this idea of holding someone captive,
Speaker 7: and he dedicated a lot of his daydreaming life apparently
Speaker 7: to that idea. Then he when he was a young man,
Speaker 7: that's when he or he met Janice. I think he
Speaker 7: was let's see, she was fifteen when she was introduced
Speaker 7: to him, and I think he was then nineteen eighteen nineteen, yeah, okay,
Speaker 7: And so Janice is the one who in all of
Speaker 7: this is the is the most perplexing and and she's
Speaker 7: the one who changes and actually finally set Coin free.
Speaker 7: So when you think about her, she was fifteen when
Speaker 7: she met him, and they dated for a year and
Speaker 7: a half I think before they were married. So he
Speaker 7: was her whole world. She went from being a child
Speaker 7: to being his wife. And he introduced her to sex
Speaker 7: as being strung up between the trees and the woods
Speaker 7: and whipped. I mean he said that's what everybody did.
Speaker 7: So that that was her education and her own indoctrination
Speaker 7: into an abusive relationship.
Speaker 3: Yes, you you outline right from Janice herself where she
Speaker 3: didn't really think she was loved or had never heard
Speaker 3: the expression that you know that she was loved. She
Speaker 3: was raised mostly by her sister Lisa, and then interaction
Speaker 3: with boys. She just wanted to be wanted, and so
Speaker 3: part of the deal with Cameron was that he was
Speaker 3: very very nice to her after he whipped her and
Speaker 3: hung her. She found it these things peculiar, but she
Speaker 3: had no sexual experience, but he was so affectionate, so nice,
Speaker 3: and she really hadn't received any attention, and when she
Speaker 3: went to her parents for permission to get married, and
Speaker 3: there was a threat that she wanted to keep them
Speaker 3: so badly that she said that she was pregnant and
Speaker 3: then promised him to marry. So you could see, from
Speaker 3: as you outlined in the book, a very pathetic, very
Speaker 3: very needy character entering into partnership with Cameron Hooker wittingly
Speaker 3: and unwittingly to a certain degree.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so she you can see that she was a
Speaker 7: victim in her own right, even though she became an
Speaker 7: accomplice with Colleen. I mean, she started down this path
Speaker 7: not knowing what love was. I mean, who really knows
Speaker 7: that at fifteen, sixteen years old, and he's the first
Speaker 7: boy who ever really paid much attention to her. She's
Speaker 7: not a particularly attractive young woman, and she's rather soft spoken,
Speaker 7: and he comes into her life. He's very tall, he's
Speaker 7: six foot four, lanky, a reasonably good looking guy, and
Speaker 7: everybody seemed to like him. You know, he was someone
Speaker 7: that people got along with. He didn't cause a ruckus,
Speaker 7: He wasn't someone who was outwardly violent. He wouldn't, you know,
Speaker 7: get drunk and cause problems. And that was part of
Speaker 7: the reason that it was so hard to believe this
Speaker 7: had gone on for so many years because he did
Speaker 7: not draw attention to himself. He was always busy, you know,
Speaker 7: he worked in the lumber mill, and he had projects.
Speaker 7: He would build fences and whatnot. So he seemed like
Speaker 7: he was a fairly industrious young man. And the two
Speaker 7: of them rented a place from an older couple who
Speaker 7: lived next door, mister and missus Letty, who thought they
Speaker 7: were just just, you know, a nice, young, wholesome couple.
Speaker 3: Now you introduce early on in this Colleen Stan, her
Speaker 3: father's Jack Martin. She had been married early on herself
Speaker 3: and in a failed marriage within about a year. And
Speaker 3: you said she was living a little bit on the fringe.
Speaker 3: So tell us a little bit more about Colleen Stan
Speaker 3: at this time. And she is from Eugene, Oregon. And
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about Colleen Stan.
Speaker 7: She was raised in southern California, in Riverside, California, but
Speaker 7: she moved to Eugene with a couple of friends, so
Speaker 7: she had roommates. And she'd had, you know, some trouble
Speaker 7: in her life, you know, a broken family, a young
Speaker 7: short divorce, marriage and divorce at a young age. And
Speaker 7: she was living in Eugene, and you can imagine Eugene,
Speaker 7: Oregon is a college town, and so this is nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy seven, and you know a lot of free spirits
Speaker 7: and Beatles music.
Speaker 5: And so she.
Speaker 7: Decided that she was going to naively hitchhike down Interstate
Speaker 7: five from Oregon to visit a friend, to surprise a
Speaker 7: friend in northern California on her birthday. And one of
Speaker 7: the chilling things for me for this, when I think
Speaker 7: about this, is that I also hitchhiked that same stretch
Speaker 7: of freeway when I was about her age, foolishly. So
Speaker 7: I actually keep a copy of Perfect Victim in the car,
Speaker 7: and when I see girls hitchhiking, I offer them a
Speaker 7: copy and insist they reached as the price for a ride,
Speaker 7: and I lecture them that that'shuld hitchhike. So but Coleen
Speaker 7: was not being, you know, completely ludicrous in her actions.
Speaker 7: She turned down a ride with a bunch of guys.
Speaker 7: She was careful about who she would accept a ride with.
Speaker 7: And when she got down to Red Bluff here was
Speaker 7: a man, his wife and their infant. And let me
Speaker 7: backtrack a little bit. That Cameron had his abuse, his
Speaker 7: sato masochistic experiments with his wife, Janice became more and
Speaker 7: more extreme, and they were frightening to her, and so
Speaker 7: finally they cut a deal, which is hard to fathom,
Speaker 7: but if she could have a child, then he could
Speaker 7: have a slave. Was the deal they cut. And so
Speaker 7: she had a child, and he was looking and he
Speaker 7: had his preparation ready, and there was Colleen, who accepted
Speaker 7: a ride with them, which looked quite safe, and they
Speaker 7: I think she was going to Westwood, and if I
Speaker 7: recall correctly, it's about an hour an hour and a
Speaker 7: half east of Red Bluff. So they headed off in
Speaker 7: that direction. And then at one point, and I think
Speaker 7: this is interesting, they stopped at a gas station and
Speaker 7: she went and used the restroom, and Collen recalls that
Speaker 7: she she had an intuition or heard a voice as
Speaker 7: she put it, telling her to run away, that she
Speaker 7: should jump out the window and run away, that there
Speaker 7: was still time, and she thought, why am I thinking this?
Speaker 7: This is you know, this is doesn't make sense, But
Speaker 7: that was her instinct and you can see that her
Speaker 7: She knew something was wrong with this couple. The way
Speaker 7: he kept looking at her in the mirror. There was
Speaker 7: just something off about them. But she talked herself out
Speaker 7: of it and got back in the car. And when
Speaker 7: she got back in the car, there was a box
Speaker 7: on the seat next to her, which she would learn
Speaker 7: and later what that was. But in the meantime they said, well,
Speaker 7: we want to go down this road and look at
Speaker 7: some ice case we hear is there are some ice caves.
Speaker 7: Do you mind? We're going to take a detour and
Speaker 7: say They took her down a dirt road. Janice got
Speaker 7: out of the car with the baby and walked down
Speaker 7: to a stream and Cameron came around and put a
Speaker 7: knife to her throat and told her she better do
Speaker 7: what he told her to do, and he had everything ready.
Speaker 7: He gagged her, he blindfolded her, and then he put
Speaker 7: this headbox on. And I've tried on that headbox. I
Speaker 7: have a photograph of it in the book. It was
Speaker 7: introduced as evidence. It's a double walled, very heavy insulated
Speaker 7: head box, which is it latches around your throat and
Speaker 7: it sits on your head. I think it weighs about
Speaker 7: twenty pounds. It's got heavy latches and it's a sensory
Speaker 7: deprivation device. I mean basic for one thing. You can
Speaker 7: scream on that and it would muffle your screams, but
Speaker 7: it's also just a terrifying thing to have latched onto you.
Speaker 7: Then he tied her up, he covered her with a blanket,
Speaker 7: and he laid her down in the back of the
Speaker 7: car and then signaled Janie back and they drove into
Speaker 7: Red Bluff and smuggled her into the basement. And that
Speaker 7: became a nightmare beyond. I mean, I can't even fathom
Speaker 7: being locked in a closet for three days, and to
Speaker 7: be locked in the kind of bizarre situation she was in.
Speaker 7: Should I just keep talking? I feel like I'm going.
Speaker 3: No, certainly, I don't want to break the well.
Speaker 7: Just try to imagine that you are shut in, to
Speaker 7: taken down into a cont small, concrete, cold basement and
Speaker 7: then placed inside essentially a cough you know. It was
Speaker 7: a box that he had made that was about freezer
Speaker 7: size from the outside and too small to her for
Speaker 7: her even to sit up in. And that's where she
Speaker 7: was kept for so long, I mean, for such a
Speaker 7: long period of time. Try to imagine the first week
Speaker 7: of the terror. You know, when am I going to
Speaker 7: get out? What's wrong with these people? They would he
Speaker 7: would let her out and whip her hang her by
Speaker 7: the wrists and whipper abuse her in various ways and
Speaker 7: then put her back in the box, and she didn't
Speaker 7: know if she was going to be killed. Sometimes she'd
Speaker 7: be let out to go to the bathroom or to
Speaker 7: eat something, but he wouldn't answer questions. She lost track
Speaker 7: of time. The days turned into weeks, turned into months.
Speaker 7: She lost forty pounds, she stopped menstruating, I mean try to.
Speaker 7: I mean just a simple thing of you know, daylight,
Speaker 7: fresh air. That was all completely outside of her experience
Speaker 7: for that period of time. She wasn't allowed to bathe,
Speaker 7: you know, there was no personal grooming. He would bring down,
Speaker 7: you know, basically a bucket for her to use for
Speaker 7: her waist. At one point they did take her upstairs blindfolded.
Speaker 7: Always blindfolded. She didn't see his face. She was constantly blindfolded.
Speaker 7: She was brought upstairs to bathe, and basically he experimented
Speaker 7: with drowning her in the tub.
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Speaker 3: Billberg necessary detail where every lost the terms and conditions
Speaker 3: eating plus let's let's talk let's let's talk about that.
Speaker 3: Let's I wanted to mention that because I think that's
Speaker 3: one of the most dramatic things. When you say that
Speaker 3: she was allowed to bathe. He tied her legs to
Speaker 3: a broomstick, dunked her in the water again blind blindfolded,
Speaker 3: and dunked her in the water. It's like a near drowning.
Speaker 3: So it was.
Speaker 7: And what's interesting is that he had done something similar
Speaker 7: with Janis when they were dating. That he had taken
Speaker 7: her to a stream and held her underwater. So again
Speaker 7: he was acting out these sadistic fanity fantasies of his
Speaker 7: that you know, Janie had endured this abuse and now
Speaker 7: he had someone else that that was his entertainment. I mean,
Speaker 7: he u he electrocuted her she has scars from electrocution.
Speaker 7: I mean, basically, anything that he could think about he
Speaker 7: would do. But that first for nine months, I want
Speaker 7: to now say that these she was kidnapped in May
Speaker 7: of nineteen seventy seven. So for the next nine months,
Speaker 7: she whenever she was led out of the box, she
Speaker 7: had to have her blindfold on. They did give her
Speaker 7: some jobs to do. They would he built a workroom
Speaker 7: under the stairs, and he would you take her into
Speaker 7: this workroom, which I imagine was just a couple of steps,
Speaker 7: It's a very small basement, and give her Macroma projects
Speaker 7: to do. So she could take the blindfold off and
Speaker 7: do these Macroma projects. And then she had to put
Speaker 7: the blindfold back on when she was let out again,
Speaker 7: so that she wasn't supposed to look at him, she
Speaker 7: wasn't supposed to ask any questions. She didn't know his name.
Speaker 7: And then finally one day he takes the blindfold off
Speaker 7: and in front of her is a slavery contract which
Speaker 7: he and Janice had created. He'd actually taken the wording
Speaker 7: out of a hardcore pornography magazine apparently and recreated it,
Speaker 7: and he gave her a slave name. He told her
Speaker 7: that from now on, your name is Kay, and that
Speaker 7: he belonged to a company of slave traders who were
Speaker 7: watching the house and had members in the police and
Speaker 7: some neighbors were involved in if she ever tried to escape,
Speaker 7: that she anyone who tried to help her would be killed,
Speaker 7: and that she would be crucified and hung I think
Speaker 7: for three days or something. I mean, just these horrible,
Speaker 7: horrible stories that he would weave in with the truth
Speaker 7: so that she I mean, at that point she had
Speaker 7: completely been brainwashed. And I have to make a comparison
Speaker 7: here with Patty Hurst. Patty Hurst was locked in a
Speaker 7: closet for forty five days. Her life was threatened. To remember,
Speaker 7: she was, you know, stolen out of her dormitory room
Speaker 7: by the sla Her life is threatened, she's raped, she's
Speaker 7: kept locked in this closet, and after forty five days
Speaker 7: she becomes Tanya. I mean, they gave her a slave name,
Speaker 7: essentially in a slave identity, and that was just forty
Speaker 7: five days. I mean, that sounds pretty horrific to me,
Speaker 7: but compared to what Colin stand went through, it's what
Speaker 7: Colin went through was just unfathomable. The amazing thing is
Speaker 7: that she survived, and we can talk later about another
Speaker 7: woman that resisted, and I believe he murdered. But she
Speaker 7: signed the slavery. He said, if you don't sign it
Speaker 7: for you, I'll make you. I'll sign it for you
Speaker 7: and make you wish you had. So she signs this
Speaker 7: slavery conduct with her shaking hand, and then they led
Speaker 7: her upstairs to do chores after the babies asleep, and
Speaker 7: she would wash dishes or you know, clean the bathroom,
Speaker 7: whatever jobs they would give her. She became quite literally
Speaker 7: their slave, but also a sex slave. I mean he
Speaker 7: would abuse her. And at some point this became too
Speaker 7: much for Janice, and she kind of tried to flee
Speaker 7: the relationships. She took a job down in Silicon Valley,
Speaker 7: which is about two hundred miles south of there, south
Speaker 7: of San Francisco as Silicon Valley the San Jose area,
Speaker 7: and she would work during the week and stay with
Speaker 7: her sister, and then she'd go back home for the weekend.
Speaker 7: And that only lasted for a while. They had kind
Speaker 7: of a sketchy, you know, financial arrangement. They would also
Speaker 7: take these macro mas that Colleen made for them and
Speaker 7: sell them a flea market down there. Meanwhile, he was
Speaker 7: working at the lumber mill and a very hard worker.
Speaker 7: But people noticed that boy. As soon as his shift
Speaker 7: was up, he was out of there, you know, and
Speaker 7: he went home because he had more interesting things planned
Speaker 7: for his evening hours. But they both were extremely secretive.
Speaker 7: No word was ever uttered about the true situation in
Speaker 7: that house.
Speaker 3: Tell us about Janice in terms of her idea, because
Speaker 3: she's again we've got to really talk about how important
Speaker 3: the Bible becomes to this story, and how important it
Speaker 3: is to Jen, and how important it is to Colleen
Speaker 3: and important to this story. But also if you could
Speaker 3: tell us about what Jen thought about monogamy and Cameron's
Speaker 3: exclusivity with her, because this is important to the story
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 7: Well. I think what you're thinking about is that Janice,
Speaker 7: Jana thought that that Colleen's relationship with cam or Kay
Speaker 7: will call her Kay at this point, she's the slave,
Speaker 7: that her relationship was consensual in some way, and also
Speaker 7: that he told her that he wasn't having sex with
Speaker 7: her or he didn't rape her. I think he lied
Speaker 7: to her about that sexual relationship, and she tried to
Speaker 7: just compartmentalize and not go down in the basement. But
Speaker 7: the Bible is important here because he used the Bible
Speaker 7: in the coercion of these two. And over time this
Speaker 7: relationship evolved. And there's a story in the Bible about
Speaker 7: Sarah and Hagar, and Sarah is the wife and Hagar
Speaker 7: is the slave, and this is in the Old Testament.
Speaker 7: And he would have Colleen read the Bible allowed, and
Speaker 7: he told her that it was a biblical relationship, and
Speaker 7: so he used he was so insidious, he used the
Speaker 7: Bible as part of his you know, coercive arsenal, and
Speaker 7: so they that was a brainwashing technique that he used.
Speaker 7: But it became so overwhelming to Jan. At one point,
Speaker 7: Jan asked Cameron to kill her. She wanted him to
Speaker 7: strangle her. She didn't want to live anymore. And he
Speaker 7: put his hands around her neck and and choked her,
Speaker 7: but then did not clearly did not kill her. So
Speaker 7: there was there was a you know, periods of extreme intensity.
Speaker 7: And then also during this time, it's important that Jan
Speaker 7: had another child. Now both these children are girls, and
Speaker 7: so now Colleen is let out and she's a babysitter.
Speaker 7: And they moved from the first house, which is right
Speaker 7: downtown on Oak Street, in a small house in downtown
Speaker 7: Red Bluff, and they moved to a mobile home and
Speaker 7: you would think, Okay, now what's he going to do
Speaker 7: because there's no basement there. Well, he was quite inventive
Speaker 7: and he built a large pedestal for the bed, and
Speaker 7: then underneath that was a compartment which was roughly again
Speaker 7: the size of a coffin. And so then Colleen slept
Speaker 7: underneath the bed and it was quite stuffy and hot
Speaker 7: down there. The ventilation was awful. And what she had
Speaker 7: for company was he gave her a radio so she
Speaker 7: would listen to the religious station. And now this is
Speaker 7: Colleen's story that has never really been told. But she
Speaker 7: had a religious epiphany at some point, and I'm hoping
Speaker 7: that she will right about that. I know she's working
Speaker 7: on her memoirs. But she became quite religious and has
Speaker 7: told me that she feels that God saved her. So
Speaker 7: during that time then she would be let out and
Speaker 7: she would even go out into the yard and meet neighbors.
Speaker 7: But they knew her as the living babysitter, and her
Speaker 7: she was Kay and she didn't, you know, engage in
Speaker 7: conversation beyond you know, looks like it's going to rain
Speaker 7: or something like that. Because she was afraid of the neighbors.
Speaker 7: She thought they were part of the company and Cameron,
Speaker 7: as part of his indoctrination, she had to ask permission
Speaker 7: for anything that she would do. She all of her
Speaker 7: activities were very controlled. And uh, then I think we
Speaker 7: have to come up to a really phenomenal event, and
Speaker 7: that was that in the in the middle of this
Speaker 7: seven year period, Cameron did something extraordinary and he decided
Speaker 7: to let Colleen visit her family, and this became a
Speaker 7: real sticking point in the in the trial. But he
Speaker 7: actually drove her down to southern California to her riverside, California,
Speaker 7: and out of the blue, Colleen appears visits her family
Speaker 7: and he tells her that I think he told her
Speaker 7: they were going to stay for three days, and of
Speaker 7: course that didn't happen. He he just wanted to kind
Speaker 7: of test her, test his slave by that he had
Speaker 7: such confidence in her control, in the control of her
Speaker 7: at that point. And this is not unlike, for example,
Speaker 7: what happened with Patty Hurst, or with Elizabeth Smart or j. C.
Speaker 7: Du Garde, you know other these are and those I
Speaker 7: think are especially interesting cases because Elizabeth Smart and jac
Speaker 7: d Guard were also kidnapped by a at a wife
Speaker 7: team and also had interactions with the public, but were
Speaker 7: too afraid to tell anyone who they really were. So
Speaker 7: there are real similarities between these cases. But anyway, so
Speaker 7: she was she was let to visit her family, but
Speaker 7: then Cameron abruptly cut that visit short and took her away.
Speaker 7: He was introduced as her boyfriend, and Colleen could have
Speaker 7: said something in retrospect, but she was so afraid that
Speaker 7: he would hurt her family, that the company would come
Speaker 7: and you know, make good on these terrible promises, and
Speaker 7: it had happened to her. I mean, this is her
Speaker 7: life experience now for I think it was three years
Speaker 7: at that point, so she knew if this could happen,
Speaker 7: this horrible, unthinkable thing could happen. So it wasn't outside
Speaker 7: the realm of plausibility that the company could do something
Speaker 7: horrible to her family. So he took her back up
Speaker 7: to Red Bluff, and at that point I think he
Speaker 7: had misgivings that maybe he had overstepped his bounds or
Speaker 7: was afraid that they might come looking for her, and
Speaker 7: he shut her back in the box for a really
Speaker 7: extensive period of time where she was only let out
Speaker 7: at night. For about the next three years, the girls,
Speaker 7: the girls didn't know where she'd gone. She had this
Speaker 7: she was this living babysitter, and now suddenly she's gone,
Speaker 7: and yet she was living in the house. That's how
Speaker 7: intense her isolation was and that kind of control. And
Speaker 7: you can see now why it's so unfathomable that you know,
Speaker 7: until you see the evidence, you see the photographs of him,
Speaker 7: you know, hanging her up with the wrists, and you
Speaker 7: and you hear the corroboration between Janice and Colleen about
Speaker 7: all of this and a lot of us he admitted to.
Speaker 7: That was what was really astonishing that he up the stance.
Speaker 7: So I'm kind of jumping ahead to the trial at
Speaker 7: this point, but.
Speaker 3: Let's go let's let's let's go back. Sorry, let's go
Speaker 3: back to really the situation that that ends up being
Speaker 3: the savior of Colleen. Again. We talked a little bit
Speaker 3: about the Bible, but the thing that Colleen that Cameron
Speaker 3: really uh miscalculated was was that he allowed these women
Speaker 3: even to go to church and did have a relationship
Speaker 3: and and to and to form a bond between them,
Speaker 3: which at one time, because you know, jan was jealous somewhat,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, afraid of the consequences and also shameful,
Speaker 3: but then also jealous that she was a competing woman
Speaker 3: in the household. So it had this complex situation psychologically
Speaker 3: for her. So tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 3: the bonding process, because at one time he shot her
Speaker 3: away because there was so much tension in the house
Speaker 3: between the two women.
Speaker 7: Two of them, I guess were fighting quite a bit
Speaker 7: before he shut her away so much. And then he,
Speaker 7: I think felt confident enough in nineteen eighty four, and
Speaker 7: I remember she's kidnapped in seventy seven, and then in
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty four he let her out and let the
Speaker 7: two of them go to church together. So Janice and
Speaker 7: Colleen now were quite religious, and they went to do
Speaker 7: here Pastor Frank Dabney at the Church of Nazarene, who
Speaker 7: gave them a different interpretation of the Bible than Cameron
Speaker 7: had been giving them. And then that summer, the summer
Speaker 7: of eighty four, he also let Colleen get a job
Speaker 7: and she worked as a motel maate. She would ride
Speaker 7: her bike to the motel, she'd clean the rooms, she
Speaker 7: would home, and she would give her money to Cameron
Speaker 7: and that's all she did. She didn't really one woman
Speaker 7: tried to befriend her and brought her home from work once.
Speaker 7: I can't remember it was raining, yeah, I think it
Speaker 7: was raining, And so she took took her home in
Speaker 7: her car and Colleen invited her inside. And Cameron did
Speaker 7: not like that. He didn't he wouldn't even speak to her,
Speaker 7: just glared at her. And so she had really overstepped
Speaker 7: her bounds. But if he had seen then he was
Speaker 7: losing control by then in a sense, because Colleen was
Speaker 7: starting to go out and Janice was starting to go out,
Speaker 7: and Janice was having what she called a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 7: She and I think the underlying thing besides the tension
Speaker 7: and also friendship between the two of them, because they
Speaker 7: were both they were both, you know, victims of Cameron Hookers.
Speaker 7: You know, he was a dominant one, and they were
Speaker 7: both his told his you know, his submissive of slaves essentially.
Speaker 7: But Jane's had the additional burden of having two daughters
Speaker 7: and now they're getting a little bit older, and it
Speaker 7: begins to dawn on her that it's not a good
Speaker 7: thing to be a female in this household with Cameron Hooker.
Speaker 7: Around how long can this go on before they become victims? Also?
Speaker 7: And I think this became a real crisis for her
Speaker 7: and past her. Damney started to give them a more loving,
Speaker 7: more modern interpretation, not this old testament, you know, slaves
Speaker 7: obey your master's stuff, but you know, about a loving
Speaker 7: relationship between husband and wife. And finally that the two
Speaker 7: of them confided in him to some degree, to some
Speaker 7: limited degree, he didn't really understand what all had gone
Speaker 7: on that he, you know, told them they needed to
Speaker 7: get away. And so this was the dramatic moment because
Speaker 7: Colleen all this time had believed in the company, and
Speaker 7: Janice at some point had told her, you know, we
Speaker 7: need to get away or and she would say no
Speaker 7: because the company would come after us. And Janie felt
Speaker 7: this burden that she was continuing this lie to now
Speaker 7: her only friend. I mean, who else understood the situation
Speaker 7: they were in that only the two of them understood.
Speaker 7: And so finally she had to tell her carefully that
Speaker 7: it was all a lie. She went and you know,
Speaker 7: while Colline was working, she said, I have to tell
Speaker 7: you there is no company of slave Travis. This is
Speaker 7: all a lie. And you know, the two of them
Speaker 7: just kind of broke down and hugged each other. And
Speaker 7: then it was getting late and Cameron was coming home
Speaker 7: at four o'clock from work, and the only thing that
Speaker 7: they could do was pretend for that night, pretend that
Speaker 7: everything was normal, so that they could escape the next day.
Speaker 7: And so he came home. Jana said she wasn't feeling well.
Speaker 7: She slept on the floor with Colleen that night, and
Speaker 7: then the next day he went to work, and while
Speaker 7: he was gone, they gathered up the things. They gathered
Speaker 7: up the things for children, and the two of them
Speaker 7: fled together. Colleen had contacted her father again out of
Speaker 7: the blue, you know, he hadn't heard from hervan three years,
Speaker 7: and asked him to wire her dollars to buy a
Speaker 7: bus ticket, and she took the bus home, but Janice
Speaker 7: pleaded with her not to tell the police, not to
Speaker 7: tell anyone what had happened. And so that's what Coline did.
Speaker 7: She didn't tell anyone. It was finally Janice who told
Speaker 7: the police. And so she is the first victim. She
Speaker 7: is an accomplice during Coleen's captivity's she mother's two children,
Speaker 7: and then she's the one who sets Colin free. I
Speaker 7: never met the girls. The girls did not testify, they
Speaker 7: didn't come to court, but I talked to Janice after
Speaker 7: the trial, and what struck me was that she seemed
Speaker 7: so washed out and so much older than she was,
Speaker 7: very lined, her hands looked old, her face was lined,
Speaker 7: her hair was dingy. And Colleen at that point had
Speaker 7: endured so much of you. She had very thin hair,
Speaker 7: you could see through to her scalp. She hadn't been
Speaker 7: to a dentist all this time. Her teeth were bad.
Speaker 7: I mean, she has chronic back problems to this day,
Speaker 7: not to mention the scars from the handcuffs and the whippings.
Speaker 7: So I mean, what she endured was horrible. What Jance
Speaker 7: endured also was terrible. And the two of them finally
Speaker 7: talked to the police together and at the preliminary hearing
Speaker 7: they were kind of a team. But by the time
Speaker 7: the trial had come around, I think Colleen had regained
Speaker 7: more of her self esteem and kind of a sense
Speaker 7: of self preservation, and she was very stand offish to
Speaker 7: Janice because then she recognized that she had been an accomplice,
Speaker 7: and had she could have told her years ago that
Speaker 7: there was no company of slave traders. Two of them
Speaker 7: could have escaped together, you know, in the first week
Speaker 7: for that matter. So I know that that Coline is
Speaker 7: still very religious, and she is a very forgiving and
Speaker 7: kind person, but at that point I think she had
Speaker 7: to kind of reclaim her identity. I know it took
Speaker 7: her a long time to do that. So but the
Speaker 7: other thing that happened is that the story was so
Speaker 7: outlantish when it did hit headlines. There was this whole
Speaker 7: thing of blaming the victim. And there's a quote that
Speaker 7: I have in the book from Patty Hurst that I
Speaker 7: want to read. She said, when you are held captive,
Speaker 7: people somehow expect you to spit in your captor's face
Speaker 7: and get killed. And that's the truth. I mean, people thought, well,
Speaker 7: why didn't she just beat him up? Why didn't she
Speaker 7: run away? Especially men, They'd say, well, I would have
Speaker 7: just punched him in the face and run off. Well,
Speaker 7: first of all, he was much bigger than she was,
Speaker 7: much stronger. I mean, Colleen's only about five four and
Speaker 7: he's six four. And that's besides the mental coercion, which
Speaker 7: was just such an enlightening part of that trial. Doctor
Speaker 7: Chris Hancher is the captivity expert who testified, and that
Speaker 7: whole aspect just to see how systematic her coersion was,
Speaker 7: or brainwashing in layperson's terms. So he used every tool
Speaker 7: that he could to disorient her, to threaten her, to
Speaker 7: isolate her, to take away her sense of privacy, to
Speaker 7: alternate reward and punishment for no reason, to force her
Speaker 7: to do different behaviors, to reduce her food and water,
Speaker 7: starve her, abuse her, shame her. I mean, he did
Speaker 7: every aspect of control because again, that was his passion,
Speaker 7: and he had studied that, that's what that was his hobby,
Speaker 7: his vocation basically, and he's such a psychopath. And now
Speaker 7: I didn't really understand psychopaths when I was attending this trial,
Speaker 7: but doctor Knight, I'm sorry, Judge Knight, who's the judge.
Speaker 7: When he sentenced Cameron Hooker mentioned his high degree of
Speaker 7: cruelty and callousness, and that is so characteristic of psychopaths
Speaker 7: that they don't have remorse. He's an utterly remorsefuls human being.
Speaker 7: He sees nothing wrong with what he did, which is
Speaker 7: why he took the stand in his own defense.
Speaker 3: He admitted, can we just we're going to use this
Speaker 3: as an opportunity to We're going to use this as
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Speaker 3: to Audible podcast dot com slash true murder. That's Audible
Speaker 3: podcast one word dot com slash true Murder. When we
Speaker 3: last left off, Carla, we were talking about the trial,
Speaker 3: we kind of skipped over the actual arrest Cameron Hooker,
Speaker 3: the kind of lawyer that he obtained and of course retained,
Speaker 3: i should say, and also the various challenges that this
Speaker 3: case encountered, including right from the very beginning. So tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about Christine Maguire and her fight
Speaker 3: to have this case, for her to prosecute it, and
Speaker 3: for this case to be prosecuted, because at one time
Speaker 3: it was it didn't look like it was going to happen.
Speaker 7: That's right. At one point they were saying that they
Speaker 7: didn't have the funds to try the case and so
Speaker 7: they were going to have to plead it out because
Speaker 7: they didn't have the money to try it. But that
Speaker 7: actually you can't you can't cite that's that's not a
Speaker 7: legal reason to not have a trial. And so luckily
Speaker 7: they did try the case and what was interesting was
Speaker 7: that there are no except for assault and mayhem, there
Speaker 7: really are no charges for torture, and so well, what
Speaker 7: what Christine had to do was was focused instead on
Speaker 7: the sex charges, on the sexual assaults and because those
Speaker 7: could be those had the highest sentence sentencing rate, and
Speaker 7: that those could be charged and then the terms served consecutively.
Speaker 7: But the tough thing was this kidnapping. Now, Cameron Hooker's
Speaker 7: point of view and his attorney, doctor Roland Packet Pappendick
Speaker 7: Uh the attorney representing their Their point of view was
Speaker 7: that the statute of limitations had lapsed, and then she
Speaker 7: stayed because she wanted to. And what was interesting was
Speaker 7: that they brought forth something no one knew they had,
Speaker 7: and that was love letters that Colleen had written to
Speaker 7: Cameron Hooker and they put forth in his defense this
Speaker 7: was proof that she was in love with him and
Speaker 7: she stayed because she wanted to. Uh. And it was
Speaker 7: only in the cross examination when when Christy maguire was
Speaker 7: able to on her expert witness, doctor Chris Hancher, that
Speaker 7: they went through those love letters line by line and
Speaker 7: she pointed, he pointed out that they're addressed to dear master,
Speaker 7: I'm writing you this letter because you you told me
Speaker 7: to and what would be sign your slaves, So it
Speaker 7: wasn't her own volition that she just decided, you know,
Speaker 7: from Colleen to Cameron, my sweetheart, it was from slave
Speaker 7: to master, because this is what you told me to do,
Speaker 7: and so and so it was pretty clear that those
Speaker 7: were instruments again of coercion. But again the problem was
Speaker 7: that the kidnapping charge had happened before the statute of limitations,
Speaker 7: and so he freely admitted right off the bat that
Speaker 7: he kidnapped her. But what Christine did was that she
Speaker 7: looked at another case that had happened a young boy.
Speaker 7: I'm going to forget his name now. It starts with
Speaker 7: an s. Gosh, a young boy had been kidnapped and
Speaker 7: held captive. I think he was kidnapped when he was
Speaker 7: seven or eight and held for many years. And in
Speaker 7: that case they were able to prove continuous kidnapping. And
Speaker 7: in that case, then it's not it can't lapse because
Speaker 7: the kidnapping never ended. It's it's a perpetual state. And
Speaker 7: so she was able to prove that this was continual kidnapping.
Speaker 7: But all of this was so iffy. I mean, it
Speaker 7: seems strange to us now because after Elizabeth Smart and
Speaker 7: JC Degard and those three women held in Ohio. I mean,
Speaker 7: we've become educated now as a population to Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 7: and these terrible, horrible crimes. But at that point people
Speaker 7: just couldn't fathom this. And even after all the whole
Speaker 7: case had been presented, because of course there was an
Speaker 7: expert witness also from Stanford on the defense side, testifying that,
Speaker 7: you know, what Colleen said happened couldn't be technically true,
Speaker 7: and that he didn't really believe in this, you know,
Speaker 7: brainwashing aspect, and on and on, so that you have
Speaker 7: the two experts, you know, sounding off it against each other.
Speaker 7: And when the jury went out, the press corps actually
Speaker 7: was wagering whether or not he would be set free.
Speaker 7: And Cameron even at the conclusion of closing arguments, he
Speaker 7: turned to the bailiff and said, he smiled and said,
Speaker 7: I know I'm going home tomorrow. He was that confident.
Speaker 7: So it was it was a huge relief to everyone
Speaker 7: when they came back and found him guilty. They were
Speaker 7: actually hung on one or two counts, I think, but
Speaker 7: they did find let's find him guilty.
Speaker 3: Let's get to because this is very unusual. Number One,
Speaker 3: the cast of characters there you just mentioned the the
Speaker 3: you know, a couple of star witnesses. But it's a
Speaker 3: battle of the experts. And Christine McGuire had interviewed both
Speaker 3: of these experts and they both agreed to the be
Speaker 3: for the prosecution, be a witness for the prosecution. She
Speaker 3: chose doctor Hatcher and then the other person that she
Speaker 3: had spoke to, she was surprised working for Pappendick and
Speaker 3: being totally again yes, doctor London. So the other thing
Speaker 3: was the other thing was is that the other thing
Speaker 3: is that Colleen took the stand. First, Janice took the stand,
Speaker 3: Colleen takes the stand, and then very very very unusual
Speaker 3: Cameron takes the stand. So we got to go to
Speaker 3: what Let's go back to when Janice first approached police.
Speaker 3: She had a story that was even more bizarre than
Speaker 3: the Colleen stan abduction and torture story. There was another
Speaker 3: one about Marie Elizabeth Spanickey. So tell us what she
Speaker 3: told police and why the police were unable to act
Speaker 3: upon what she had witnessed.
Speaker 7: This still gives me chills. I mean, there are tears
Speaker 7: in my eyes right now. Even thinking about Marie Elizabethpanickey,
Speaker 7: your nickname was mar Liz, And this had been weighing
Speaker 7: on Janis all this time. So this is the other
Speaker 7: element that had been working on her psyche. In nineteen
Speaker 7: six seventy six. January of nineteen seventy six, miss Panicky
Speaker 7: in Chico, which is about forty miles east of Red
Speaker 7: Bluff in Chico. She I believe she'd had a fight
Speaker 7: with her boyfriend. So she was walking at walking home
Speaker 7: and Cameron and Janice drive up, and Cameron offers her
Speaker 7: a ride, and so she gets in the car and
Speaker 7: they take her, you know, to where she's going, and
Speaker 7: she starts to get out, and he grabs her and
Speaker 7: subdues her and takes her back to the house. So
Speaker 7: very much like what happened with Colleen, you know, she
Speaker 7: picks a woman off the side of the street and
Speaker 7: rushes back to the house. But in this case, Marls
Speaker 7: didn't behave as he wanted her to behave, and he
Speaker 7: cut her throat. First of all, he tried to cut
Speaker 7: out her voice box, and then she asked for a
Speaker 7: pen and paper and wrote down, you know, please let
Speaker 7: me go. My boyfriend will pay a ransom and he refused,
Speaker 7: and he I believe he shot her with a pellet
Speaker 7: gun and then ultimately strangled her and murdered her. And
Speaker 7: so he had they take her. Yeah, they load her
Speaker 7: in the car, they drove out at night into the woods,
Speaker 7: and they buried her. And so Janice confessed this to
Speaker 7: the police and they read her rights, you know, immediately
Speaker 7: she confessed this before she told him about Colleen. And
Speaker 7: they looked for the body, but they could not find
Speaker 7: her body. And Marla's spanickey did disappear on the night
Speaker 7: she said she was wearing what Janice described. I mean,
Speaker 7: there's no way Janis would have known the things about
Speaker 7: her that she knew unless that was true. But that
Speaker 7: is legally not enough to prosecute someone. Now, I believe
Speaker 7: down to my toes that Cameron hook Her murdered that girl.
Speaker 7: And I've also believed that if coin Stan had resisted
Speaker 7: that he would have murdered her too. And it is
Speaker 7: because she did what she was told and didn't fight
Speaker 7: back that she's alive today.
Speaker 3: Now you put in your book and this is that's
Speaker 3: not the first book that there's a reference to. This
Speaker 3: famous fictional book called The Collector by John Fowls, but
Speaker 3: you have a quote from it. Tell us just briefly,
Speaker 3: why John Fowls, a collector, is important to this story.
Speaker 7: That is an uncanny book because of Stockholm Center.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 7: Stockholm Center just briefly came out of a bank robbery
Speaker 7: situation in Stockholm, I believe. It's in nineteen fifty three,
Speaker 7: and the bank robbers locked some I think eight hostages
Speaker 7: in a vault for three days, I believe, and that
Speaker 7: was the first case where they observed that the hostages
Speaker 7: started to bond with their captors, and so that's why
Speaker 7: it became Stockholm Center. I mean, you see the same
Speaker 7: kind of bonding in a sense between captor and captive
Speaker 7: in pow situations, prison guards who were taken hostage during riot,
Speaker 7: to all kinds of those kinds of situations. But remind
Speaker 7: me again, why am I giving you this background? Whoops,
Speaker 7: I'll off my train of thought. I'm telling you about
Speaker 7: Stockholm syndrome because.
Speaker 3: We wanted to talk about her original story about the abduction,
Speaker 3: and you said it was important to understand Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 3: in that particular case as well, and.
Speaker 7: Also about the collector. Sorry, So what was uncanny about
Speaker 7: the collector? By John Fowls, which is fiction, is that
Speaker 7: he writes alternating chapters, alternating points of view, one from
Speaker 7: the captor and one from the captives, and he is
Speaker 7: so spot on on the psychology of both of those individuals,
Speaker 7: even though you know, Stockholm syndrome wasn't widely understood. He
Speaker 7: has just an an erring sense for what that relationship
Speaker 7: is like, how you try to identify what makes your
Speaker 7: captor tick and please him because he can kill you
Speaker 7: if you don't. And so I do quote him in
Speaker 7: the book, and I recommend that that book frequently, even
Speaker 7: though it's not well known, but it's not well known anymore,
Speaker 7: but it's a really really terrific fictionalized version of what
Speaker 7: really did happen in this case.
Speaker 3: It also it also speaks to Cameron's fantasy as very
Speaker 3: much the main character in The Collector, that after the abduction,
Speaker 3: that the woman would then love come to love her captor,
Speaker 3: and this sex slave relationship would be consensual and loving
Speaker 3: and morph into something again the fantasy that's contained in
Speaker 3: the Collector. And also it seems not only Cameron Hooker,
Speaker 3: there's other serial killers that have noted this book as
Speaker 3: one of their favorites and inspiration of sorts.
Speaker 7: That's correct. And then there's another thing that I just
Speaker 7: recalled too sure is that there is a movie the
Speaker 7: Story of O Right, and that was Cameron Hooker's favorite movie.
Speaker 7: And so like, oh, who was a slave? His slave
Speaker 7: he gave just a one initial. People would call her
Speaker 7: K and think that it's kay, but it was really
Speaker 7: just the initial K was the slave name that he
Speaker 7: gave her.
Speaker 3: Yes, it was incredible parallels with that movie. And at
Speaker 3: one time Christine Maguire tried to have that deemed amissible
Speaker 3: at trial, but Judge Knight thought it would be more
Speaker 3: prejudicial than probative. What I found the most fascinating was
Speaker 3: that Christine Maguire made the best decision in having her
Speaker 3: psychiatric expert, and that he did a masterful job of
Speaker 3: doing his research and finding sixteen coursive techniques that he
Speaker 3: outlined that trial, and he talked about historically how slaves
Speaker 3: escaped and yet could have escaped yet didn't. So he
Speaker 3: explained psychologically and very easy to relate terms for the
Speaker 3: jury exactly what coercion, what these coursive techniques were, and
Speaker 3: he outlined them and also pointed out Cameron obviously got
Speaker 3: his inspiration from from some of the material and the
Speaker 3: newspapers and the literature that Cameron had and where exhibits
Speaker 3: at trial.
Speaker 7: It was so enlightening listening to him. Doctor Hatcher was
Speaker 7: an associate clinical professor with the Langley Porter Institute in
Speaker 7: Sereni les Go and and his credentials. I mean it
Speaker 7: took him ten minutes just to explain his credentials, but
Speaker 7: he was fascinating and explaining how coercion exists on a
Speaker 7: continuum that you can think about, you know, someone being
Speaker 7: dominant in a relationship, like they're the one who says
Speaker 7: when you go shopping by this by that this is
Speaker 7: what we're having for dinner, or then you know, a
Speaker 7: more overt kind of domination to the point where you
Speaker 7: have at the extreme extreme end what Cameron Hooker subjected
Speaker 7: coin stand to. So and also this idea of you
Speaker 7: know that yes there are people that participate willingly in
Speaker 7: bondage as sex play, but that that is a consensual relationship.
Speaker 7: Again on a continuum, so you know, you might you know,
Speaker 7: there's one thing to have a little bit of you know,
Speaker 7: biting or pulling of hair might be stimulating in a
Speaker 7: playful way, but that's not the same as torturing someone
Speaker 7: for your pleasure. That if you like to inflict pain
Speaker 7: on someone else as as a stimulation, you know, that's
Speaker 7: completely at the other end of the continuum. So it
Speaker 7: was really interesting to listen to him talk about how
Speaker 7: this kind of prolonged captivity breaks down your will, that
Speaker 7: you're reduced to the state of an infant, and that
Speaker 7: you're so dependent on this other person for your you know,
Speaker 7: basic human functions that you haven't since you were an infant.
Speaker 7: You haven't had to, you know, soil yourself because they
Speaker 7: wouldn't let you go to the bathroom, or you know,
Speaker 7: that you were so dependent on someone just simply for
Speaker 7: some food and water, and it just breaks you down psychologically.
Speaker 7: And you know, soldiers are trained to resist this. Ordinary
Speaker 7: people are not trained to resist us. And even someone
Speaker 7: trained can be broken down and made to do what
Speaker 7: their captor wants them to do. The other thing I
Speaker 7: want to talk about too a little bit, is just
Speaker 7: a difference between kidnapping situations. You know, there's it's something
Speaker 7: different if you're in if you're held captive and there
Speaker 7: is some negotiation for your release, and you know, that
Speaker 7: if someone pays the ransom, that you will be set free.
Speaker 7: There's the hope there that you can get out. But
Speaker 7: what she was subjected to was utterly hopeless. There was
Speaker 7: no negotiation, no one knew she was there, There was
Speaker 7: no way that he would ever let her go. Her
Speaker 7: only hope was to a and so Janice really was
Speaker 7: the key to that.
Speaker 3: Now, Doctor Hatcher also he explained again like you had
Speaker 3: mentioned that using a bedpan, having no privacy, the isolation,
Speaker 3: the sensory deprivation, the punishment for no seeming reason, and
Speaker 3: then sort of reward. All of these things are as
Speaker 3: doctor Hatcher outlined textbook to break someone, to reduce someone,
Speaker 3: to course someone. And then that led to the logical
Speaker 3: explanation on how on earth because Colleen, understand was not
Speaker 3: having an easy time. So he explained the flat, unemotional
Speaker 3: effect that she had that seemed very foreign to everybody,
Speaker 3: including the media and everybody because it's foreign to them,
Speaker 3: it's totally unexperienced in this unprecedented case. So what he
Speaker 3: also explained is how on earth she could have written
Speaker 3: those letters, And like you say, line by line, he
Speaker 3: explained the phone calls and the letters and her expression
Speaker 3: of love for Cameron Hooker.
Speaker 7: That's right. He went through all of those techniques, the
Speaker 7: disrupting of night and day patterns, the refusal to answer questions,
Speaker 7: the constant threats.
Speaker 3: The.
Speaker 7: Shame and control and abuse, reward and punishment for no
Speaker 7: reason that you have to ask permission even to go
Speaker 7: to the bathroom, and the extreme isolation and deprivation and
Speaker 7: how that breaks you down. And then he also explained
Speaker 7: how after you've gone to that for a period of time,
Speaker 7: initially you might scream and cry and be upset, but
Speaker 7: when you've been so close to death basically so many times,
Speaker 7: it starts to lose its impact you. That hopelessness kind
Speaker 7: of pervades your whole personality. So you know, when you
Speaker 7: talk about what happened to you, you're not going to
Speaker 7: sitting on a stand. Talking is not frightening, you know,
Speaker 7: talk being closed in front of front of people. Might
Speaker 7: you know, you might have some stage fright, you might
Speaker 7: be nervous, but it's not anything like you know, someone
Speaker 7: holding you underwater. I mean, this is pre the term,
Speaker 7: before I ever heard the term waterboarding. I mean, they,
Speaker 7: you know, almost drowned her. And he taped electrical wires
Speaker 7: to her breasts and her thighs an electrocuted her. I mean,
Speaker 7: after that kind of extreme horror, she was not an
Speaker 7: emotional person. And even today she's she's fairly soft spoken.
Speaker 7: I mean she does I'll laugh, which is refreshing to hear.
Speaker 7: And she does have hope and love in her life,
Speaker 7: thank god. But at that time, yeah, it was I
Speaker 7: know that Christine was concerned that the jury wouldn't believe her,
Speaker 7: partly because she wasn't histrionic. But she wasn't histrionic because
Speaker 7: of what she'd gone through.
Speaker 3: Now, the again I talked about, the very surprising and
Speaker 3: unusual turn of events is is Cameron Hooker takes the stand,
Speaker 3: and so for those that are uninitiated, the direct examination
Speaker 3: can put forward all kinds of we'll say stories, we'll
Speaker 3: say tales, fictional tales even but then there's always the
Speaker 3: direct examination and the opportunity for the prosecutor to really
Speaker 3: zero in on those inconsistencies and outward lies and had
Speaker 3: the prosecutors weigh with them to discredit that person as
Speaker 3: a witness. So tell us about Cameron Hooker's testimony and
Speaker 3: Christine Maguire's cross examination.
Speaker 7: Well, when he took the stand. He had a very
Speaker 7: a very kind of good old boy attitude, you know,
Speaker 7: and h and during the direct examination under Papendick, I
Speaker 7: remember him talking about how, you know, he was a
Speaker 7: boy scout and he learned to make notts as a
Speaker 7: boy scout. I mean, he was trying to portray himself
Speaker 7: as kind of this wholesome guy. And then when she
Speaker 7: she really was brilliant in the way she grilled him
Speaker 7: and caught him inconsistencies and and just brought up the
Speaker 7: facts and showed how he, you know, how callous he
Speaker 7: had been, and they about these things that he had done.
Speaker 7: I mean, here here in the courtroom was the box.
Speaker 7: They Christ team brought in the box that he'd kept
Speaker 7: her locked in under the bed. There's a picture of
Speaker 7: it in the book. And I know some of the
Speaker 7: jurors actually tried on the headbox and laid down in
Speaker 7: the box during their deliberations. And that was such a testament.
Speaker 7: And then she brought in a huge photograph that he
Speaker 7: had taken of Colleen blindfolded and quite thin as suspended
Speaker 7: by her wrists, naked, and that kind of evidence was
Speaker 7: just so glaring in contrast to the sort of wholesome,
Speaker 7: loving relationship. He was he was hoping to pretend that
Speaker 7: they had, so I don't remember him getting upset or
Speaker 7: you know, ever raising his voice or anything. I think
Speaker 7: that he honestly thought that Chris, that the prosecution had
Speaker 7: no case. I think he really genuinely believed that. And
Speaker 7: I need to bring up also, or I'd like to
Speaker 7: bring up now that he was sentenced to one hundred
Speaker 7: and four years, and we thought he would never be
Speaker 7: set free, even with time off for good behavior. But
Speaker 7: recently California changed the law and they have made it
Speaker 7: mandatory that anyone over the age of sixty who has
Speaker 7: served twenty five years of their sentence is up for
Speaker 7: early release. And so Coin contacted me in January very
Speaker 7: upset that he was going to be having a hearing
Speaker 7: right and that he was going to have to face him.
Speaker 7: And so there was a hearing April sixteenth, and Colleen
Speaker 7: rallied her courage and she testified against him. We had
Speaker 7: a letter writing campaign to people to protest his release,
Speaker 7: because clearly this is the kind of person who sees
Speaker 7: that he did nothing wrong. He's never expressed any remorse,
Speaker 7: and I believe strongly that psychopaths can't be rehabilitated. I've
Speaker 7: researched that somewhat and wrote about that for The Atlantic.
Speaker 7: And part of the thing is that they don't see
Speaker 7: anything wrong with themselves, so why should they change, right,
Speaker 7: And psychopathy actually exists also on a continuum. I mean
Speaker 7: they some psychopaths run corporations or you know, you might
Speaker 7: The likelihood is that all of us have met someone
Speaker 7: during our lives who basically lacks empathy, but to be
Speaker 7: a sadist and a psychopath to the extreme level that
Speaker 7: he is is again on an at the far end
Speaker 7: of the spectrum. But luckily the parole board recognized what
Speaker 7: a cruel person he is and that he has no remorse,
Speaker 7: and so he's still in prison.
Speaker 3: He will still have another He will be entitled to
Speaker 3: another parole hearing in a.
Speaker 7: Few years though one he you know, someone asked me
Speaker 7: that recently, and I thought, gosh, I don't I should
Speaker 7: have asked Colleen that I didn't at the time. But
Speaker 7: I imagine, yes, that he will be up for review
Speaker 7: again within a few years. I hope he just hes
Speaker 7: in prison between now and then.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the thing is too the parole board, it
Speaker 3: seems to be, especially in America, and especially in high
Speaker 3: profile cases, and especially with witnesses. Again, especially a case
Speaker 3: like this where the public sentiment, the public outcry can
Speaker 3: affect a parole I think parole hearings decision, and I mean,
Speaker 3: who would want to be the guy that let this
Speaker 3: guy out? You know, who would want to be the
Speaker 3: guy that signs that order saying oh, sure, I think
Speaker 3: this guy is okay? Now? So and to just to
Speaker 3: talk about his lack of remorse, because I don't think
Speaker 3: these people, really, I don't think, you know, truthfully ever
Speaker 3: have any remorse. But to show you how he really
Speaker 3: thought about things is that he said he had a
Speaker 3: computer and some games and three squares and and at
Speaker 3: least it was better than living with those two women.
Speaker 7: That's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: So he's happy.
Speaker 7: I think I think he's he's where he belongs. I mean,
Speaker 7: he's certainly to be set free. He's a danger to
Speaker 7: women as long as he'll be set. I'd like to talk,
Speaker 7: if I might, for just a moment, about my fiction,
Speaker 7: because their case haunted me after I when I finished
Speaker 7: Perfect Victim, I really thought, Okay, nothing that horrible will
Speaker 7: ever happen again. And now I'm going to get on
Speaker 7: with my life. But every time, of course, there was
Speaker 7: any kind of case like this, Elizabeth Smart or JC
Speaker 7: de Garde, you know, it all came back to me.
Speaker 7: And you know, I maintained contact with Colleen over the years,
Speaker 7: and what I wanted to do was write fiction about
Speaker 7: a survivor of kidnapping and captivity as a way of
Speaker 7: kind of almost a cathartic way of dealing with that crime.
Speaker 7: And so I wrote a crime novel. The title is
Speaker 7: The Edge of Normal, and the protagonist is twenty two.
Speaker 7: She was kidnapped when she was twelve and held for
Speaker 7: four years. Not as extreme as what Colleen went through,
Speaker 7: but more extreme than what Elizabeth Smart went through. And
Speaker 7: so she's my heroine in a way, you know, perfect
Speaker 7: victim is talking about the crime and the victimization, and
Speaker 7: then The Edge of Normal is my way of talking
Speaker 7: about the survivor. And she is called upon to help
Speaker 7: another girl who's survived that kind of case. And there's
Speaker 7: a character, doctor Lerner, who's roughly patterned after doctor Chris Hatcher,
Speaker 7: who's the forensic psychiatrist, the expert on captivity syndromes, who's
Speaker 7: her psychiatrist and when I wrote The Edge of Normal,
Speaker 7: I was really nervous about what Colleen would think, so
Speaker 7: of course I sent her a copy, and a few
Speaker 7: days after she received it, she called me up and
Speaker 7: I steeled myself because I was really afraid she was
Speaker 7: going to be upset about it. And she said, I
Speaker 7: want to thank you because I feel like you really
Speaker 7: listened to me, that you really understand, and it just
Speaker 7: gave me chills. And then that i've just recently well actually,
Speaker 7: the sequel is coming out at the end of this month,
Speaker 7: is called What Doesn't Kill Her, And in a way
Speaker 7: that's inspired by this possibility of Cameron Hooker being released,
Speaker 7: because of course my first thought was if he is released,
Speaker 7: I hope somebody just shoots him, which I know is
Speaker 7: a terrible thing to say. I don't really mean that,
Speaker 7: you know, don't call the police, but that's the you know,
Speaker 7: that's viscerally what what you feel is that you know
Speaker 7: he should not be ever set free. And so that
Speaker 7: inspired the idea of the second book, in which the
Speaker 7: the captor the kidnapper breaks out of prison and and
Speaker 7: how do you deal with that person being back on
Speaker 7: the street. So in a way, you know, I'm still
Speaker 7: trying to grapple with the emotional issues. I'm still obsessed
Speaker 7: with evil. I'm you know, interviewing experts about about psychopaths
Speaker 7: and talking to the FBI and kind of fixated on
Speaker 7: those cases. And it's fascinating to be the resilience of
Speaker 7: someone who's gone through that sort of thing. And also
Speaker 7: there's a bonding between survivors. I hadn't realized this, but
Speaker 7: after Jasu de Garde escaped or was rescued, I started
Speaker 7: looking at some of the publications that survivors have written,
Speaker 7: and actually, if you do enough research, there is a
Speaker 7: publication that I think it's put out by the National
Speaker 7: Center for I'm trying to think of the group anyway.
Speaker 7: It's it's a governmental agency and it's a collection of
Speaker 7: stories by survivors, and Elizabeth Smart contributed to that and
Speaker 7: some others, and they really do try to help each
Speaker 7: other survivors of kidnapping, the National Center for Missing and
Speaker 7: Exploited Children, That's what I'm trying to think of. They
Speaker 7: there are techniques actually for you know, reclaiming your life
Speaker 7: and beginning to feel safe again after you've been through
Speaker 7: that kind of horrific situation.
Speaker 3: What was Colleen Stan's reaction to the new law that
Speaker 3: made Cameron Hooker eligible for parole.
Speaker 7: You could hear the panic in her voice. It generally
Speaker 7: when you're talking to her, she sounds, you know, just
Speaker 7: like any anyone that you would meet. But when the
Speaker 7: possibility of Cameron getting out again comes up, it's it's
Speaker 7: really like, you know, a switch has been flipped, and
Speaker 7: that she I think she remembers so clearly then what
Speaker 7: has happened, and she knows what he can do, and
Speaker 7: it's it's a state of distress that I think really
Speaker 7: absorbed her life for months, that this this fear. Although
Speaker 7: I have to give her credit at how she has
Speaker 7: dealt with it, she's been phenomenal. She spoke to a
Speaker 7: victims group in Northern California and shared her story. It
Speaker 7: was the first time she'd publicly come out, and she
Speaker 7: I think this was videotaped. It might have been on television.
Speaker 7: I think I saw, I got some glimpses on my computer.
Speaker 7: And she's put together a very cohesive case for putting
Speaker 7: him away. And I'm hoping that in a way that
Speaker 7: that was cathartic for her, that she again faced him
Speaker 7: and had that affirmation that he's you know, not going anywhere,
Speaker 7: and that she's able now to reach out to others.
Speaker 7: She's had such a hard and amazing life, i mean,
Speaker 7: even beyond this trial. And I've been encouraging her to
Speaker 7: work on her memoir, although I'm sure that that's quite
Speaker 7: stressful for her.
Speaker 3: It's it's incredible your book again, it more than touches
Speaker 3: on it because it really, really, somehow, somehow explains how
Speaker 3: Colleen persevered through this, through through Bible, through through little
Speaker 3: little glimmers of hope, the little the little privileges that
Speaker 3: she did get when she did get to speak to
Speaker 3: her family on the phone, when she did get to
Speaker 3: go visit. All those things a very precious to her.
Speaker 3: And again you said she must have had she did
Speaker 3: have a religious experience or a spiritual experience. It's incredible.
Speaker 3: Resilience under resilience in the dictionary. Should have a photo
Speaker 3: of her. And then when you see her in the book,
Speaker 3: her eyes are so compassionate, and yet you can't imagine
Speaker 3: anybody living and enduring what she did for those seven
Speaker 3: years and then not being vengeful and bitter and hateful.
Speaker 3: It's it's incredible.
Speaker 7: Anyone if there's anyone that should have never had to
Speaker 7: endure that, it's Collin. She's a very sweet person and
Speaker 7: she deserves she deserves kindness and goodness in her life.
Speaker 7: And you know, I wish that there were wonderful things
Speaker 7: that I could doe upon her, because she, you know,
Speaker 7: she I know that she has wonderful people in her
Speaker 7: life support her, and that's good. But I also know
Speaker 7: that she's had some very very hard times and still
Speaker 7: she's she's just a dear, wonderful person. And thank god,
Speaker 7: she did have some religion in her life, and she prayed,
Speaker 7: and she you know, would would relive in her mind
Speaker 7: her favorite memories with her family and her childhood and
Speaker 7: places that she had been and I, you know, to
Speaker 7: try to imagine being, you know, locked in a box.
Speaker 7: I mean, it really is. It's solitary confinement. It's in
Speaker 7: human kind of treatment that she endured. But thankfully she
Speaker 7: did survive it, and you know, she's she's gone on
Speaker 7: to live her life. And she said that one thing
Speaker 7: that surprised her is that people would complain about They're
Speaker 7: always complaining about things, and she realizes how lucky we
Speaker 7: all are, you know, every day, and that makes her
Speaker 7: appreciate all the wonderful experience every day if we just
Speaker 7: you know, look at them, look at the real situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this story, too, is a story of survival.
Speaker 3: But there are some heroes in this and dedicated people
Speaker 3: who go over and beyond the call of any kind
Speaker 3: of duty to try to get revenge, try to get
Speaker 3: justice for again Marie, Elizabeth Sponecky, and for Janice and
Speaker 3: for Colleen, and really the justice that Cameron Hooker deserved,
Speaker 3: which is to spend the rest of his life in
Speaker 3: prison and be denounced as the monster he really really was.
Speaker 3: So I really want to thank you for coming on
Speaker 3: and talking about this. For those that might be interested
Speaker 3: in contacting you, do you have a website or do
Speaker 3: you Facebook? Tell us how people might be able to
Speaker 3: contact you or learn more about your work.
Speaker 7: Thank you. Yes, it's Carlton dot com and I'm on
Speaker 7: I'm one of several Carla Norton's on Facebook, so it's
Speaker 7: Carla Norton, novelist and true crime writer. You can't you
Speaker 7: can't miss me. And on Twitter, I'm Carla No I'm
Speaker 7: at Carla J. Norton. So those ways are the best
Speaker 7: ways to reach me and you can contact me through
Speaker 7: my website anytime.
Speaker 3: Absolutely and I, like I mentioned before in the in
Speaker 3: the commercial break, Perfect Victim is available as an audible
Speaker 3: audiobook and in paperback and any book form, and so
Speaker 3: you can get a copy of this true crime classic.
Speaker 3: I want to thank you very much Carla for coming
Speaker 3: on and talking about Perfect Victim. It has been a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. And you have a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Dan, thanks so much. Good night, good night now.