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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host,

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and I'm pretty excited about our guest tonight, greg A Gigeon.

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He was on back in twenty eighteen and I remember

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it was a excellent show and he's on. He has

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a new book and I'm going to bring that up

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here in just a second here, and it's an interesting concept,

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if you ask me. And the name of the book

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is After the Flying Saucers Came, a global history of

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the UFO phenomenon, and it's a lot of it is

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about the people's reaction. I think he makes a statement

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something like, it's not the UFOs that make his it's

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the people that make the history about the UFOs, which

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I think is that, you know, absolutely correct as far

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as as that goes. I do want to make a

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couple announcements. First of all, this coming weekend at the

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Pine Bush UFO Paranormal Museum Randall Dickerson. I met with

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Randall yesterday at his home in Massachusetts, hung out with

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him for a few hours, had a really good talk

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with him. You know, there's I do have to say

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he's going to be more public about this, but he is.

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He has actually been really treated wrong, and along with

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other people too. I know I had Ron James on recently.

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He spoke briefly about it. But we're talking to James

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Fox and many other people. I don't know if there's

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going to be some type of glass app but there

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is a film company that has really done them wrong,

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and I'm hoping he Randall said he's going to start

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talking publicly about it. I will certainly give him a

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platform to talk to because when someone's done wrong, I

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think it should be turned around and should be treated

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the way that they were supposed to be treated contractually anyway.

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So he's going to be speaking, he's going to be

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showing the film at the museum and speaking afterwards. So

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he can get over there. If you're anywhere near the

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Pine Bush area, it would be great to hang out.

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He's very approachable, great guy, Randall Nixon. So check that

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out coming up. That is this August third. Is that

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a Saturday or I think that's a Saturday evening. I

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don't have my calendar right up here in front of me,

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but that's at the museum, and check that out. And

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that is Saturday, yes, at seven thirty pm Eastern. So

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our guest this week again is Greg Gigian. He wrote

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this book just to let you know. On Thursday night,

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I'll have this gentleman and his name is Robert Caveat

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and he is a filmmaker. He's done a lot of

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things on Fox Television with the UFOs and things like that.

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He'll be on talking about the Mandela Effect. I'm kind

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of on the fence about how I feel about that.

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I understand how it works. So that's eight pm this

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coming Thursday, right here on this channel. And thank you

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all for being here. It's always a pleasure seeing you

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in Chad and all that. Oh, I don't want to

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forget our great blog this week because it has to

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do with Paul Benowitz and what he filmed at in

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New Mexico back in the late seventies early eighties, and

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it's called the UFOs Caught in Film by Paul Benowitz.

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And there are some images now Charles R. Blogger worked

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directly with Chris Lambright, who actually wrote a book on

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this whole situation. So there's some interesting images and you'll

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see that all on the blog here at PODCASTUFO dot com.

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Come in and check it out, and thank you all

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who support the show. And those of you who cannot

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support I do thank you for watching and listening, and

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it would be great if you can write reviews, whatever

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you can do to help the show. I would really

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appreciate it. And just to have you here at all,

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it is a real pleasure. And here is our guests. Hello, Greg, welcome.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: So Greg, you were on quite a while ago now

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as it stands, and again I remember it was a

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really great conversation. And you are a professor of history.

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You're at what is in Pennsylvania right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Penn State University. You might have heard we have

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a football team.

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Speaker 1: I think I might have heard that. Yeah, so you've

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been there a while, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have. I've been here since the early two thousands.

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So yeah, Penn State is I'm pretty much at this

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point a Penn State or I think it's official now.

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Speaker 1: I hope. So your tenure dog would imagine by this time. Yeah. Hey,

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so I gotta ask you right after about have you

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ever got any bullback for looking at this UFO topic?

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Speaker 2: You know, I will say, by and large no, I

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mean I think I think particularly early on, maybe when

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I was starting to get into this, I had some

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people who you know, uh, you know, an upturned brow

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or something like that, and I think you know what

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it's like. Usually when you bring this topic up, there's

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there's some people who are kind of sizing you up

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and okay, wondering what's your angle here? What? Why are

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you interested in this? I had a little of that,

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but I will say, by and large, the the the

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the reaction I've gotten in the world of academia has

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been overwhelmingly not only supported, but downright enthusiastic. Get I

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get lots of wow, that is cool or yeahn I

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wish I had thought about that. Or one graduate student

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said to me, I didn't know we could write about

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things like this, and I said, yes, you can.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.

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Speaker 2: I think I think it's a it's indicative of the

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kind of you know, see change and I changes and

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ideas that are out there these days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to I mentioned this on a show

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a while back up a few weeks ago, and I'll

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just throw it out there again in case people missed it.

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But I think it's kind of funny. I was helping

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my cousin with a basically a yard sale of her

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where she grew up. Her family had been there for

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the last fifty nine years, and so she I was

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helping a price, you know, how to set it up

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and help helped her through it basically. And at some

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point I said, I don't know if you know, if

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this is any family, if the family knows this or not,

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but do you know that I do a show in

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UFOs And she went like that, and I go, what

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you know? And I said what? And so she goes

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like that like I'm the crazy man, and I went

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out the crazy cousin. I went into the other room

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and I came back out and she's like texting someone away.

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I go, I know what you're doing. I know you're right,

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crazy cousin Marty as they called me or whatever. I

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hope people don't start calling me that, but anyway.

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Speaker 2: Somebody's got somebody's got to fill in that role in

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the family, that's right, obviously. So there you go.

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Speaker 1: But her husband, who I just called my favorite cousin

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in law, I mean, he's such a cool guy, really

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great guy. So I said, well, you might as well.

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You're gonna hear it from your wife, so I might

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as well tell you, and he goes, awesome, Oh my god,

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he's like the enthusiastic. That's so great. He goes, he worked,

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he has a plumbing business, and he said, I got

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to have one of my work and say he had a UFO.

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I got to have them talk to you. And I

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said great. And he goes, do you know of Betty

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and Barney Hill? And I said, ah, yeah. He said, well,

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Barney was a postman when I was growing up, and

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he's he hung out. I don't know how we have

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a delivered mail. He said he to hang out for

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an hour or two sometimes and talked. He said he

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didn't talk that much about UFOs, but every once in

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a while he would bring me so it wasn't as

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mad thing you talked about.

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Speaker 2: Small world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, right in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So that's right

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where they were from. Yeah, he's actually the He's actually

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the first person I have met and I grew up

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in this area, in the Portsmouth area that actually knew Barney.

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I knew I know many people that knew Betty, but

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only why He's really the only person I've ever talked

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to that knew Barney.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So she it sounds like by everything I've ever read,

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of course she was you know, of course she lived

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a much longer life. But she she she was really

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a very sociable person. I mean, she got out there.

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And some things I've read seemed to indicate that Barney

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was a little more reserved, a little little shyer than

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she was. It seems like she was pretty outgoing.

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Speaker 1: She really was. Yes, I've talked to a lot of

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people that would say basically that, you know, I was

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in a house and there was a picture on a

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wall and I'm looking and this was a house to

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look for antique, someone that was selling antiques, and I

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was called in there as an appraiser basically, and I'm

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looking at this picture and I said, is that a

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woman named Betty? And they said, oh, yeah, Betty Hill

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was a great friend, you know what I mean. Yeah,

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And that was you know, two towns over. Yes, she

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was very sociable. Yeah, you need definitely so, Greg. I

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know we've gotten way off topic, but your book, how

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what was the impetus for you to write this book

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in particular?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I I probably a good decade ago.

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I was just on a lark. I started to look

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into this question I had in my mind. It came up.

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It really was sort of inspired by talking to a

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friend of mine who was working on a fairly unrelated project,

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but about the occult after World War Two, and I

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kind of wondered whether there was you know, these flying

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saucers sighting and report about them, you know, in other countries,

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and particularly I was working on Germany at the time.

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I thought, well, what if I were to go in

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and look at some of these digitized newspapers from the

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late forties and early fifties, and you know, were they

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reporting about flying saucers? And sure enough I go in

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there and bam, there they were. And I thought, well,

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that's wild. And I just you know, this is what

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we nerdy historians do get We get excited about things

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like that. I start reading, I started taking notes, and

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pretty soon I realized I have an article. And then

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a friend of mine said, you got to write a

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book about the history of UFOs. I said, I'll come on,

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there has to be so many professional historians who have

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done this already. This is I'm not going to just

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add one more voice. And then I looked up and

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I realized that there's a lot of books about historical

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aspects of it. But as far as I was ever

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able to reharmin. The only professor of history who ever

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wrote a book about the history of UFOs, right was

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David Jacobs, Right, the famous David Jacobs, who, of course

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later on becomes a you know, part of the story.

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Speaker 1: And that McDonald. I don't know what McDonald McDonald McDonalds was.

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He was in history, he.

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Speaker 2: Was, and he never wrote a book, and he would

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He did atmospheric physics, you know, people like Alan Heinek

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and Jacques Falet. None of them were academic historians, right,

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So you didn't really have anybody do that. And I thought,

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my god, nobody's written a history of this thing since

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nineteen seventy five, at least nobody from like I say,

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a professional historical background like my own. And that's when

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I thought, well, I think it's time. And little did

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I know how deep those waters are, because a lot

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has happened since nineteen seventy five, and a lot of

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there are a lot of threads and a lot of elements.

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And then the other thing, as I realized soon given

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what I had just done about this German thing, I

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realized I couldn't talk about this without trying to incorporate

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the rest of the world. This couldn't just be about

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American sightings and American figures. It had to be about

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a lot of other people who made these UFOs make history,

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as I like to say. So that's how I got

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into it and started just becoming utterly, utterly fascinated by it.

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Speaker 1: And the statement you make is like, the people are

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the ones that make the history of you, fols. But

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how much I didn't get it much of a chance

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to preach through too much on your book, But you

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hear a lot of people will talk about you know

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that it's all initiated from pop culture, and so I

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just want to say, ask this question, how much does

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pop culture play into what you've researched?

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Speaker 2: So I would say the way I see it from

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what I from what I could really glean from. Then

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the historical record is UFOs as we know of them,

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as we think about them, as we talk about them,

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are really unimaginable. Without popular culture, popular media that includes newspapers, magazines,

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radio today, podcasts, things like that, we would not be

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thinking and talking about them the same way without those influences.

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That said, I think there's every indication that UFO sightings

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from their very beginnings to I think this very day.

239
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To me, are what I would call a grassroots phenomenon.

240
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That is, they bubble up from below. They are not

241
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the result of you can't explain them away by pop culture.

242
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You do not see evidence, I think in a very

243
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simplistic way that somehow, oh there's been a movie about

244
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UFOs recently, and now you got all these sightings and

245
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they're all reporting exactly what steals Speed just showed us.

246
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You don't really see that. That's not the way it worked,

247
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and it hasn't worked that way. So I think there's

248
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this complicated thing going on where this phenomenon took place,

249
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and it kept taking place, as you well know, flaps

250
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and waves along the way. There were periods when there

251
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very little action going on. But what you have is

252
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then a bunch of people trying to make sense of it.

253
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You have lots of at different points in times, you

254
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have high concentrations of media attention on it like these days, right,

255
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and then those inform the way in which people start

256
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to speculate and think about things. But I think the

257
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impact on actual witness sightings and things like that is

258
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relatively minimal from what I can see. And so you

259
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have something going on that's I think, very hard to

260
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tease out right where one aspect starts and the other begins.

261
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But I think without question, the sightings themselves, those tend

262
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not to be something that are easily influenced by pop culture.

263
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm kind of relieved to hear you

264
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,399
say that, because you know, there are plenty of skeptics

265
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that will try to spin that that is, you know,

266
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the reason. You know, I can't remember who I had.

267
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I do believe. I want to say it was Shermer.

268
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He was on my show once, Michael Shermer. Yeah, And

269
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I believe that was part of his narrative, is saying,

270
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you know, it's a pop culture influence. And he talked

271
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about him thinking he saw after a long bike ride,

272
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thinking he saw, you know, a UFO, but it was

273
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something explainable, and as James Fox basically shut him down

274
00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:46,639
on a show, he said, we don't want to talk

275
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about the ones you know was not a UFO because

276
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you could do that, you know, like I looked up

277
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in the sky, I saw, oh there was a cigar

278
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shaped Oh it's a blimp. You know, we don't need

279
00:15:59,159 --> 00:16:01,799
to know any of this that can be explained. It's

280
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the very small percentage, but definitely a percentage of the

281
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ones that can't be explained. That's where people should be

282
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looking and you know, and where they they come from.

283
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I still, you know, I've been doing the show now

284
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for it's almost thirteen years now, in a couple of months,

285
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and I really do not have I mean, I don't

286
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know if I can ask better questions, but I really

287
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don't have any idea. I can't comfortably say that I

288
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think they're extraterrestrial. I can't comfortably say I think they're

289
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in interventional or time travelers. I can't say any of that.

290
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And it's just as easy in my opinion, and it's

291
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not me making this up. From other people I've heard

292
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talk this way, it's more likely something or a part

293
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,080
of it is likely to be something we couldn't understand

294
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,200
easily or understand it all, you know. So I guess

295
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I have to common.

296
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,759
Speaker 2: I think that's a common perspective that I think a

297
00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:06,559
lot of a lot of thoughtful people, right, people who

298
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have spent time really you know, trying to get get

299
00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:14,000
the answers. That's a very very common sort of refrain

300
00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:17,279
about it, you know, And I think from my from

301
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:21,640
my position I you know, the because I really am

302
00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:25,599
primarily interested in the way in which we human beings

303
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,680
sort of try to deal and grapple with this that

304
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,720
side of things. And you know, one of the things

305
00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:38,119
that creates that that's problematic here is certainly the ways

306
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,640
in which we have tried to find little boxes to

307
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,400
put this thing in, right, the ways we've tried to

308
00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:47,960
package them. So, I mean, to me, the best one

309
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,000
of the best examples is just the language we've used historically.

310
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Right at first it was flying saucers, and of course

311
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,480
then by the early fifties, the Air Force is like,

312
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:01,000
oh god, we hate this laying which we hate this

313
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,240
let It doesn't work because people aren't just seeing saucer

314
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,200
like things. So they come up with UFO to solve

315
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,079
that problem. And of course, very quickly they learn that

316
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,799
doesn't solve the problem because what happens is the media.

317
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,119
What they would do, and often the Air Force would do,

318
00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:21,400
is anything that somebody saw in the sky they couldn't explain,

319
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,960
they just put it in that that bin, the UFO bin.

320
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,799
And of course, as you're you're sort of hitting that right,

321
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:32,839
that's a lot of stuff. That bin is full of

322
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,119
all sorts of different things, many of which are pretty

323
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,920
mundane things, right, pretty pretty pretty ordinary kinds of things.

324
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,519
And so when you sort of have this language problem,

325
00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:49,720
and now of course we use UAP, and I count

326
00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,119
me in the in the group that doesn't think this

327
00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:55,200
solves the problem. I don't think it solves the language problem,

328
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,319
but I know I have colleagues and friends who like

329
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,400
it much better. But in any event, it's still is

330
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,039
something that creates, you know, it opens up questions for us.

331
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,640
But what it also does is it means we invariably

332
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,920
throw things under that category, and it just clouds up

333
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,880
the picture. More So, a lot of this has to

334
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,480
do with us human beings and the flawed ways in

335
00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:21,200
which we go about thinking. Right.

336
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 1: I wonder if another intelligence has had this same dilemma

337
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,079
like being visited from wherever they're being visited from, and

338
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,839
have the same deliver dilemma of not knowing exactly what

339
00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:39,079
they are, and you know, have gone through, you know,

340
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,400
the similar things that we've gone through trying to figure

341
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,559
out what it is in our skies and in our

342
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:50,680
oceans and whatever, or maybe perhaps around us, you know,

343
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,200
and we just don't see them there or know that

344
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,720
they're there. Or something who knows, you know. I mean,

345
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,079
I just think there's so many mysteries here, and you know,

346
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,039
and there's some people, I'm sure that you've heard people

347
00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:05,960
think that we're in a simulation. You know, there's all

348
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,920
types of theories of and then you know, the the brains,

349
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,119
the many membranes or whatever they're called, the other alternative

350
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,559
lives and things like that. I mean, it's all there's

351
00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:23,799
so many questions, you know, and we don't really I

352
00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:28,400
don't think we really understand reality, you know, I don't know, right.

353
00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 2: And I mean that's that. I like that you laid

354
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,680
out all those different kinds of explanations because that gets

355
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,599
that again, it's been there from the very beginnings of

356
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,680
thinking about flying saucers in the late forties, has been

357
00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:48,160
this kind of schmortas board, if you will, right of

358
00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:56,519
ideas and theories and speculations, everybody sort of choosing their own,

359
00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,799
sometimes the discussion being lively and exciting and productive as

360
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:04,319
you well now, sometimes it could get kind of acrimonious

361
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,400
and not so nice. But yeah, that's that's the nature

362
00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:11,960
of this whole thing, right, is that it's really kind

363
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,839
of difficult to sort of pin any one thing down

364
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,119
and so at times it feels like there's the flavor

365
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,160
of the month, right, that that sort of is running

366
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,160
things at any given time. Right.

367
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: And you know, I think we can in some ways

368
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,759
be egocentric where you know, I mean we think it's

369
00:21:33,759 --> 00:21:36,599
all about us or like, you know, it's kind of

370
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,759
the way religion and as can be handled in a

371
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,519
similar type way, like we think that every move we

372
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,039
make it's actually something is observing or or cares about

373
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,240
us in some type of way, you know. And I

374
00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:57,559
think that's I think in some ways we can make

375
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,079
this whole phenomenon be in that way. And you know,

376
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,079
I've I've asked this particular question to a number of people,

377
00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:08,160
like astronomers, and so I just want your opinion of it.

378
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,359
So say we're the blue marble, We're floating through space,

379
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:17,720
you know, and whoever it is develops how they developed,

380
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,880
and they can look at us and detect that we

381
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,000
have life first of all, oxygen, whatever, water, all that.

382
00:22:25,079 --> 00:22:28,839
But this could be something that's very common, you know,

383
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,559
supposedly very common in the universe. So why would we

384
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,559
be getting all the attention? Why? Why? Yes, again, it's

385
00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:43,559
kind of an egocentric sort of question, right, but are

386
00:22:43,559 --> 00:22:46,160
we that special? I know we have a lot of species,

387
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,480
we have a lot of life, but I don't know

388
00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:52,799
if that's any different than other you know, inhabited inhabited

389
00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:55,519
planets that are out there. I don't know. I mean,

390
00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:56,240
are we special?

391
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 2: Right now? It's a great question. I mean I see

392
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,000
it on two levels too. I mean the question itself, right,

393
00:23:04,039 --> 00:23:06,920
are we that special? Well? You know, you could you

394
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,480
could point to you know, Copernicus of course pointing out that, hey,

395
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,920
guess what, we aren't the center of the Solar system

396
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,440
or the universe, it's actually the sun. Was one of

397
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,960
those moments. Another one was when Darwin puts together, you know,

398
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:27,119
evolution by natural selection, which sort of says, hey, we're

399
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,119
we are one of the animals, so we're not we're

400
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:36,559
not terribly special. So this would be another version of that,

401
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,039
and you're quite right, it would. You'd almost be led

402
00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:43,920
to the argument that that, you know, they either came

403
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,079
across us by accident or we're just the next in

404
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:52,279
line right where one thousand, three hundred and seventy. You know,

405
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,880
it's like you go to the get your ticket now

406
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,720
here it's it's our turn, and they aren't going to

407
00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:00,440
stay long because they're moving on to the next, the

408
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,599
next place. I mean, what's interesting to me again when

409
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,000
I think about like the history of how we have

410
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,880
tried to grapple with it, what's intriguing is to think

411
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,079
about this is that question again? Was there when people

412
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,920
first started to talk about this in the forties and

413
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,279
fifties and really really give it some time about well,

414
00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,559
if they're visiting us, you know, why are they visiting us?

415
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,000
What's this all about? And of course you have in

416
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,759
the nineteen fifties you have the famous some would say infamous,

417
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:35,880
but the famous contact these right, oh yeah, who said

418
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,480
they you know, were visited by these really celestial, really wondrous,

419
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,440
almost angelic beans. And that was of course from their standpoint,

420
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,640
it was exactly that we are special. They've decided to

421
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,920
come here to save us from ourselves, to preach a

422
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,920
message of love and all of that. And of course,

423
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,319
by the time you get to twenty five thirty years later,

424
00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:03,319
a lot of that stuff is gone and now you're

425
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,200
hearing stories about you know, little small beings that don't

426
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,920
even interact with us, right, have no interest in us,

427
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:15,319
or just seem to be like collecting plants, So you

428
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,519
kind of already had for years, You've had this kind

429
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:21,880
of discussion within the world of people who said they

430
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:28,880
had actual encounters, seemingly reporting very different versions of alien

431
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,000
or whatever beings. These would be right, So both sets

432
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,319
of arguments could be seen as pointing to certain witnesses

433
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,799
over the decades who sort of lead us down different paths. Right.

434
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: I know you said you were talking earlier about you know,

435
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,920
from the nineteen seventy five forward, nobody's really written any

436
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,599
book about the history of this. But what about nineteen forties.

437
00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:56,559
You know, some I've heard some people speculate, like Stan

438
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,519
Freeman used to say that because of the nuclear you know,

439
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,759
I was getting involved in new care weapons, et cetera,

440
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,480
the kids found the mattress, that type of thing, and

441
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:10,079
then you know, that's why some people, not everyone, but

442
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,519
some people think that's why all of a sudden, the

443
00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:15,359
visitation started in forty seven and fifty two real heavily,

444
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,640
and you know, on and on and on like that.

445
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,759
I mean, I'm just asking for a speculation from you

446
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,319
as well. I mean, do you think the modern UFO

447
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,839
era was ushered in because of the nuclear situation?

448
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,039
Speaker 2: So, you know, Stan Friedman others make this iron In fact,

449
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,160
it was an argument that got made almost really within

450
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,839
the first few years after the Kenneth Arnold side, because

451
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,039
it was one of the questions that everybody had, right

452
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,960
you had to answer. You had to address a question

453
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:53,359
which was, you know, we haven't heard this thing before.

454
00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:55,480
Nobody had heard now. Of course, there are people now

455
00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:58,319
who go backwards and say, oh, we've seen other things

456
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,640
that are like this, but certainly at the time it

457
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,640
was seen as really unprecedented, so you have to explain it.

458
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,480
You had to say why now of all times? And

459
00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:12,319
if the first explanation that made sense to people in

460
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,920
the late forties, you could see why it would make sense.

461
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,640
We had just been through a horrendous World war where

462
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,559
we had used unprecedented weapons of mass destruction, including two

463
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680
atomic bombs that killed hundreds of thousands of people immediately, right,

464
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,119
and then you have experimenting in all these atomic tests.

465
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,319
So it seemed like a natural explanation for people. And

466
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,200
so that argument, I think, as you see with people

467
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,759
like Freedman and others, still has legs today. You know,

468
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:49,160
from my standpoint for me again, I come back to

469
00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:53,759
what interests me is what explanations did people seek out,

470
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,599
how what made sense to people at any given time

471
00:27:58,039 --> 00:28:02,240
about these kinds of things. And it seems to me

472
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,799
what you see time and again, particularly in the forties,

473
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,839
fifties into even the sixties, is everybody kept coming back

474
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:16,000
to the Cold War. Everybody kept saying or kept finding inspiration,

475
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,559
shall we say, in the Cold War that here it's

476
00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:25,319
got to be either our atomic bombs or our atomic weapons,

477
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,920
our intercontinental ballistic missiles have caught the attention of these

478
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,599
other beings, right as you said, the kids have found

479
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,359
the matches. Or the other argument, of course, which was

480
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:39,920
very common, is these must be secret technologies of one

481
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,519
of the superpowers, right, and again that seemed like a

482
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,599
very reasonable explanation. Why because as people have said at

483
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:52,680
the time, Hey, during World War Two, one of the

484
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,079
superpowers in the United States had kept a secret, right,

485
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,720
this secret of atomic bombs and then had used them

486
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,920
and nobody had known about this. So why it's not

487
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,720
that far fetched to think that the Soviet Union or

488
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:10,839
the Americans are playing loosey goosey with some new technologies.

489
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,400
And we know in some cases that was the case, right,

490
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,319
like the YouTube planes. So you have both of those

491
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,599
arguments are going on at the time, and that, to

492
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,759
me is interesting is to unpack that and see how

493
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:23,720
people got there.

494
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: The one thing that because I think that, I think

495
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,920
that too. I think today what people see, I think

496
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,279
some of it could be definitely technology. But when you

497
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,359
go back far enough in time and you hear people discuss,

498
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:41,119
you know, the maneuvers and things that they had seen

499
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,799
way back in the sixties. But also the thing that

500
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:46,759
a lot of people do not talk about very much,

501
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:51,200
I believe is the fact that these things are seen

502
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,000
shooting off at high rates of speed, there's never a

503
00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:59,240
sound barrier broken. It's not whatever it is, I don't

504
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,279
you know, it's possible we may have that technology now,

505
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,400
but I don't believe that they have that technology, you know,

506
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,079
forty years ago or longer right any stretch. It just

507
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,720
seems like if they had that type of technology, we'd know,

508
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:16,039
we'd have to know something about it, right, I think

509
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:17,440
if it was around that long.

510
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:20,079
Speaker 2: Those are those Those are the cases, right, Those are

511
00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:23,200
always the cases that leaves a lot of people scratching

512
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,480
their heads, and usually they go into the other bin

513
00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:31,279
of unexplained phenomenon. Right, that's the that's the thing you get.

514
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:36,160
I mean it again, It's interesting because you know, I

515
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,680
look back. I think about, for instance, back in the

516
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:46,279
nineteen sixties and seventies, when people were really, really skeptical

517
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,920
and downright cynical about the way say, the US Air

518
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,799
Force was dealing with UFO reports and sightings right and

519
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,119
seemingly so dismissive and of course the arguments. Then there

520
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:02,359
were there kind of do two camps that you typically

521
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,319
saw you The one camp was the people who said,

522
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,400
you know what we would today called disclosure right disclosure

523
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,880
movement was the people like Donald Keijo and Night kept saying, hey,

524
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,000
these people know stuff and they're not they're not giving

525
00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:19,039
it to us. We need to pressure them. And then

526
00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:24,920
there were people like James McDonald or Coral Lorenzen who said, no,

527
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,079
you know what, I don't think they do know. I

528
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:30,200
think what it is is they're not very good at

529
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,319
this stuff. Or to be perfectly blunt, they used to

530
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,039
talk more privately how stupid the Air Force was, and

531
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:38,039
they were like, you know, let's quit demanding them give

532
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:40,160
us the information because I don't think they know what

533
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,680
the heck is going on, and I don't think they

534
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:43,039
have it.

535
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I say that quite often. I

536
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,880
think that they I do believe, you know, this is

537
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,039
again speculation, but I don't think they have the full picture.

538
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,799
I think they may have more of a picture than

539
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:57,319
we do, or some part of some compartmentalized part of

540
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:00,119
our government may have more information than we do. But

541
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,440
I still think that it's very possible. The reason we

542
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:07,440
may not see the full disclosure, as the big d disclosure,

543
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,680
as they say, because I don't think they know the

544
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,759
whole picture. And if you don't know the whole picture,

545
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,480
then how can you say you can protect someone. You

546
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:16,559
can't say that either if you don't.

547
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: Have it, right, Yeah, that would be that would be

548
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:24,039
a very scary option, right, yeah, if that was the case.

549
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:26,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think that. I think that's why

550
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,799
the Air Force is holding back. You know, the Navy's

551
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,519
more open than the air Force. But I think, you know,

552
00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:34,200
they just don't want to have to answer those questions.

553
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,799
You know, That's kind of how I feel. Here's another thing.

554
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,359
I remember I had Stanton Freeman and Kathy Mardin on

555
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,160
like a couple of days after there was the Sunday

556
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,559
Times December sixteenth, I think was twenty seventeen when the

557
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,119
Pentagon you know article came out in the New York Times.

558
00:32:54,480 --> 00:33:01,079
Well by happenstance. Stanton Freeman was on that Tuesday afterwards,

559
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,359
and that video on YouTube quickly went over one hundred

560
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:08,799
thousand views, So there was a lot, you know, everyone

561
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,440
I wanted to know what stan Freeman had to say

562
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,279
about the whole thing, and the thing he said right

563
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:16,240
off the bat is why now, why are they coming

564
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,480
out with this now? So I'm asking you because you

565
00:33:19,559 --> 00:33:24,319
must have addressed twenty seventeen in your book. I haven't looked.

566
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:25,880
I don't know if you did or not, but I mean,

567
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,799
what is you know, why would you think that they

568
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:32,920
they picked that time? Do you think was by force

569
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,200
in some way because of what was going to be

570
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:37,880
released with videos? Or you know?

571
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,519
Speaker 2: It's interesting, right. I mean I've tried, I've thought, had

572
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,640
long and hard about this, and part of me has

573
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,759
come to the conclusion that I need to defer to people,

574
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:56,039
for instance, who have made a career of say studying

575
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,079
or reporting on the Defense Department, for instance, because I

576
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:06,279
know that's its own very peculiar animal bureaucratic beasts. Right.

577
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:09,960
But you know, I've talked about it and the very

578
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,000
thing you're talking that you say, Stan Friedman sense strikes

579
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,599
a chord with me because I can remember talking with

580
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,840
a journalist who was covering and has written about some

581
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,079
of this very stuff, and who said to me, you know,

582
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,000
I've talked to people who do study the Defense Department,

583
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,000
and everybody is you know, most of the public is

584
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:35,440
always about, hey, you know, what aren't they telling us?

585
00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:38,199
What else don't we know? And these things who said no,

586
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,400
they always tell us, they always advise us when this

587
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,280
stuff happens, is ask yourself, why are they coming out

588
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,599
with this? Like what's the motivation for them to say

589
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,920
something when they don't seemingly have to say it. I mean,

590
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,440
of course what it was was the New York Times,

591
00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:56,360
and then of course Washington Post and Politico were all

592
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,360
putting this stuff out there, so there was pressure. But

593
00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:01,559
if you remember, there was a lot of hemming and

594
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:04,840
hauling and a lot of delay for a while coming

595
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,239
out of there, and then this sort of slow drip

596
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:14,920
of recognition acknowledgment. And I what strikes me is I

597
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,800
get the sense that what you saw going on was

598
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,800
just a very different political climate than the old days,

599
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,360
that there's a lot more voices and a lot more

600
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:31,880
avenues for the public to express its discontent, a lot

601
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:38,079
more platforms for politicians to speak out and to say, hey,

602
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:41,119
this is important to my constituents, or hey, you know,

603
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,400
I've made a career out of looking after the welfare

604
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,719
of people who of people in the Air Force, in

605
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,239
the navy, because I got a base right right here

606
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,880
in my own district. Right that seems to me to

607
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,199
be a different climate than say, existed back in the

608
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,559
nineteen fifties and sixties during the Cold War, when I

609
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,280
think there was greater kind of censorship and self censorship

610
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,039
going on. But that's the best I can come up with.

611
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,000
To me, it still remains. And I know a lot

612
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,480
of other people scratch their heads and say, what is

613
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:14,920
it about twenty seventeen and eighteen that allowed this kind

614
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,559
of genie to get out of the bottle?

615
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: Right right? Yeah? And you know you could say also

616
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:25,519
the same thing. I like, is this a place where

617
00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:27,599
if you you know, the old term, follow the money,

618
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,639
you know, I mean, that's what you know Congress has

619
00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:34,039
been trying to figure out, because you know, there there's

620
00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:36,119
some and I don't know where that stands these days.

621
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:39,000
We just came up on the year. I was actually

622
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:42,199
in the room in DC when that hearing happened, and

623
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:47,320
I was lucky enough it needs to be the second

624
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,000
to last person in there. Now we're a year out,

625
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,039
and you know, I mean, it doesn't feel like I

626
00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:57,719
don't know really what happened, you know, I mean, was

627
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,119
there momentum? I mean, does it feel It feels like

628
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:03,159
there was momentum. But you know, when you're looking at

629
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:06,760
this topic for a while, there's plenty of stages where

630
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,199
you feel like there's forward movement, and then you get

631
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,119
discouraged again. And you know, lou Elosando's book got leaked

632
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:16,599
and it's out there everywhere, and I've been trying to

633
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:20,119
help him retain some of the copies to you know,

634
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,440
get them taken off. But he's coming up in September,

635
00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:26,199
you know, and on my show here, I'm going to

636
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:28,519
be asking him a lot of you know, these questions,

637
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,480
and one of them comes up all the time. Someone

638
00:37:32,559 --> 00:37:35,320
just sent me something they took my quotes and some

639
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,119
news story or whatever about the twenty three minute video.

640
00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:43,159
Have you heard about it? Yeah? So I can't wait

641
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:45,320
to talk to him about I mean, I talk with

642
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:49,000
basically you know his wife through email, That's how I

643
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:52,400
communicate with him. But I'm really curious about that video,

644
00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:54,639
you know what I mean, Like that's supposed to be

645
00:37:54,679 --> 00:37:58,199
another moving the needle situation.

646
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you know, to go back to

647
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:03,079
just what you were saying about this and how you

648
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:07,920
contextualize it. I mean, again, this has been and anybody

649
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,280
who's been in the business of UFO study. When I

650
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,239
talk to the veterans, they're all very, very familiar with

651
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,039
this stuff, is that this is exactly the pattern that

652
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:24,239
you've seen since the forties. Is these patterns, these moments

653
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,400
when there is this, like I say, concentration of a

654
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,960
lot of energy, people get mobilized. There's leading voices who

655
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:35,760
are leading the charge and who are having an impact

656
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:43,239
on public perceptions and seemingly getting movement within government circles,

657
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,920
even sometimes impacts on civilian research and academia, and then

658
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,760
it just sort of falls away. It just all sort

659
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,840
of disappears and dissipates. And how people try to keep

660
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,920
that alive is typically with some sort of new development, right.

661
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:02,679
I mean, you can go back and look over old cases,

662
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,480
only so only so many times before you need more

663
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:11,920
cases to sort of talk about and look at. So

664
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:16,000
that's the mo of I think the way this has

665
00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:21,840
always played out, the reality is it just seems to

666
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,880
me every single time, just about every single time, people

667
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,800
get disappointed with the way the intelligence community comes back

668
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,679
at this. I don't think I've ever seen a time

669
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,559
when anybody, when large groups of people who were interested

670
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:39,559
in UFOs have been satisfied with that. You know, for

671
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,239
my money, if you really are interested in seeing some

672
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,760
sort of movement, it's going to have to be on

673
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:52,679
the civilian side of things, which means, you know, I

674
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,920
always tell people to me, the most encouraging thing is

675
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,639
to see NASA get behind this. NASA is about civilian

676
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,639
academics getting involved. And of course, when NASA says, hey,

677
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,719
it's okay to study this stuff, you know, we academics say,

678
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,920
all right, if you start saying there's money available, we'll

679
00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:18,480
we trust me, we'll write the grants, we'll do the research.

680
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:23,800
So that's that's starting to go on. And so I think,

681
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,840
if you want to hang your hat on something, that

682
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,079
to me is the really to me, the real sea

683
00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:34,760
change that you say, that's pretty unprecedented. We never had

684
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,320
something like that happen before in the over seventy five

685
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,840
years of history that we've seen. That to me is

686
00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:49,639
where maybe just maybe you'll see developments and you'll see

687
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:53,079
research that we've never ever ever had a chance to

688
00:40:53,119 --> 00:40:53,800
see before.

689
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying about NASA, and I was

690
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,280
all excited too, But whenever they came out with the

691
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,039
one hundred thousand dollars budget, I just thought that was

692
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:08,480
you know, that's like buying a lunch for them, you know,

693
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,519
it just it just seemed like, what do I want

694
00:41:12,559 --> 00:41:15,360
to say, window dressing. You know, it didn't seem like

695
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:18,079
you know, it didn't seem legit to me. But I

696
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:19,880
don't know, No, I have gone further.

697
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: No, Well, here's the thing I mean, I said the

698
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,800
same thing when it first came out. I mean, one

699
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,079
hundred thousand dollars for an agency like that is you

700
00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:32,159
can't even buy out a full professor for that around

701
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:36,000
them money. So, but what was made very clear was

702
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:43,079
this wasn't to a study, a concerted study of UFOs.

703
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:47,920
What it was was simply as as as the you know,

704
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,880
the director or the chair pointed out about it. This

705
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:57,400
was supposed to be establishing a road map for future research.

706
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,280
The idea was, hey, well, before we can even do investigations,

707
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:07,239
we need to have set ideas about what are the guidelines,

708
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,679
what are the kinds of tools and resources we're going

709
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,719
to need if in fact we want to ever study

710
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,719
this stuff in a seriously scientific way. And that's all

711
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,360
they tried to do. And I will say they delivered that.

712
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,239
They delivered that, and now the idea is supposedly, now

713
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:28,920
go out and let's start doing this stuff. Now. From

714
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:34,400
my point of view, this is where people in academia say,

715
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:37,920
show me the money. All right, let's see the money.

716
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:41,599
And you're right. If we don't see NASA or the

717
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,320
National Science Foundation putting up some funds for people to

718
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,719
do this stuff, then maybe then you get skeptical and

719
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,480
you say, okay, this was a lot of talk, but

720
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:56,079
no real you know, no real uh, no real foundation

721
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:56,960
behind it.

722
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: I'm thank you for clarifying that, because I was unaware

723
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,400
of that, and I don't think they made it very

724
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,400
obvious that that's what they were doing, or I just

725
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,960
didn't read enough about it, so all I saw was

726
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,119
that amount of money for funding, and I just thought, well,

727
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,119
that doesn't really mean anything then, But thanks for you know,

728
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:18,360
looking into it more.

729
00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 2: And I think they they Again, I know people were

730
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,119
in various circles were very critical of what they said

731
00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:31,119
and how they approached it. Again, I think if if

732
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,719
if you read it, you read their report, but you

733
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:41,000
listen to what was said in the public news conference,

734
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:47,360
this was stuff that is completely unprecedented for NASA. The

735
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,039
history of NASA has been to put UFOs at arm's length. Yes,

736
00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:54,159
they did not want to touch it when Vanda vant

737
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:56,559
Brown was around, never wanted to get near it. This

738
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,840
is a very different climate and a very different way

739
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,239
of of talking about this stuff. And the and the

740
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,119
fact that they're too recognition and acknowledgment that what people

741
00:44:08,159 --> 00:44:13,559
were talking about and what particularly pilots were reporting unseeing

742
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,639
we're actual objects, We're physical, We're actual objects and not

743
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,559
just computer glitches. That that is something that is really,

744
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,480
like I said, quite quite unusual for an agency like NASA. Yeah.

745
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Uh, you know, I mean, I don't know what

746
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,960
to think about. Since we're on the topic of NASA,

747
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,119
I don't really know what to think about some of

748
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:43,519
the footage. It seems to me, you know, like when

749
00:44:43,559 --> 00:44:46,360
you see UFOs from the space station or something like

750
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,800
that or outside of the Shuttles and some of the

751
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,320
old films, and a lot of times you say, well,

752
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,599
this is you know, this is ice particles, this is uh,

753
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,519
you know something like uh. I think a stage that

754
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:01,760
dropped off U. You know that looks you know, very

755
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:09,199
weird from far away. I had a conversation with Alan Bean,

756
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,719
you know, fourth person on the Moon several years ago,

757
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:14,719
and I couldn't get Supposedly in nineteen seventy, I can't

758
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,760
remember space Lab. I can't remember the name of what

759
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,760
was Skylabb, But there was a skylab. Yeah, there was

760
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,199
some type of thing with a tail, red tail on

761
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:27,440
you know that they all spotted. I could not He

762
00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:29,199
was on my other I do a podcast in art

763
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:32,000
and antiques, and he was an amazing artist, so he

764
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:33,800
talked about his art. But when I try to get

765
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,719
him to talk about that, UFO to talk about it.

766
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,519
But there are people that will I had a story

767
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:45,280
musk Grave, for instance, he was on my show years

768
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,440
ago and he talked about you know, UFOs. And I

769
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,360
know there are other people that Gordon one am I

770
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:58,559
thinking of Gordon the famous astronaut, you know what I mean? Yeah,

771
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:00,920
I just I can't think of his full name right now.

772
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,800
But anyway, and shame on me for that. He was

773
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,920
a great guy. But there are people that took the

774
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:11,400
subject serious for many decades and and you know, have

775
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,400
a lot of validity, you know, But there are people

776
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,199
that talked about there they saw something in the moon.

777
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,119
I don't know whether I believe that stuff. I don't know,

778
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:24,480
you know, like they think there's beings on the moon

779
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:27,960
and all that. I don't know. Again, it seems egocentric.

780
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,360
Why would they be here, you know, at arm's length

781
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,480
and you know, studying us, And I don't know what

782
00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:35,440
to think about any of that.

783
00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly. We we we probably if that were

784
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,440
the case, we you'd think they get pretty bored of

785
00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:47,159
us after a while. Yeah, it'd be like watching one

786
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,559
long game of golf or something, you know, because we

787
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:54,480
just we seemed to we seem to we human means,

788
00:46:54,559 --> 00:46:57,400
keep seeming to make the same mistakes over and over again.

789
00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, the Truman Show. Yeah, yeah, but you know,

790
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:05,199
I mean, how are there is there any place in

791
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,079
your book for the purported abductions that people claim to

792
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:11,119
have that? Yeah, I did your.

793
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: Book, Yeah, I do. I do talk about that in

794
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:18,400
the book, and particularly the last the last substance of

795
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:24,039
chapter is about alien abduction and trying to understand it

796
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,480
in the context of its time, and and and there again,

797
00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:33,440
my argument is not to dismiss it, and I make

798
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:36,239
this point very clearly in the book. My book is

799
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,039
not designed to support the idea that aliens are visiting us.

800
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:46,800
Neither is it an effort at debunking. I'm doing what

801
00:47:47,079 --> 00:47:50,280
historians have done for a very long time, which is

802
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,360
to sit back and to say, hey, how can we

803
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,639
understand the way in which we are trying a way

804
00:47:57,639 --> 00:48:00,679
in which people sort of reacted in respet responded to

805
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,000
certain realities. Right, how did they do that? How did

806
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,480
they try to put the pieces together? And then how

807
00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:11,079
did how did then people respond to the way people

808
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:13,840
put those pieces together? And so that's what I do

809
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,840
with alien abduction is I take it seriously. But the

810
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,599
idea is to understand how did this thing come to be?

811
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:30,679
When you understand it in the stream of UFO history,

812
00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:35,400
and what you see is what striking to me is

813
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,880
the way in which so many of the ways in

814
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,440
which people talked about it were built on certain kinds

815
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,400
of reference points that existed at the time. Right, so

816
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,960
that people helped sort of build a way, built ways

817
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,440
to understand what they were experiencing by turning to you know,

818
00:48:58,079 --> 00:49:01,039
what a historian wants called the mental tools available to

819
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:05,119
them at the time. Right. So people saw, you know,

820
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,840
described operations that sounded like a laparoscopy, uh, you know,

821
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,199
talked about uh forms of of of what appeared to

822
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,119
be technologies of cloning at a time when, of course

823
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:23,719
cloning was very very big, Right, Things like this that

824
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,199
that were ways in which, like I say, don't don't,

825
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,800
don't denigrate the way people talked about their experience, but

826
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,199
but says that, you know, people had to find ways

827
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:38,000
to make sense of something that was for them utterly bewildering.

828
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,400
And then the other thing I talk about was is

829
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:48,639
the critical role played by what I call consoling consultants,

830
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:53,519
people like David Jacobs, people like Bud Hopkins, people like

831
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:54,239
John Mack.

832
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,159
Speaker 1: John Mack. I was going to ask about John Mack.

833
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very important, Yeah, the very important role they played.

834
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,159
They do not play an inconsequential role, because all of

835
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:11,159
them came to the phenomenon with certain ideas in their

836
00:50:11,199 --> 00:50:15,400
heads and saw in the phenomenon something that made sense

837
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:21,159
to them, right, they themselves didn't have those same experiences,

838
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:24,360
though I know Hopkins had a UFO experience, but I

839
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,079
don't believe he ever had an abduction experience himself. But

840
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,360
the idea is is that is that they play a

841
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:37,679
really important mediating role in helping to steer people they

842
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:43,480
were talking with to view things in certain kinds of ways. Again,

843
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,320
not an unusual phenomenon, but it did sort of. It

844
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,480
is sort of interesting that when you see people who

845
00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:53,960
would say, go to say Leo Sprinkle or John Mack

846
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,639
tended to view their experience one way if you went

847
00:50:57,679 --> 00:51:01,920
to David Jacobs and but Hopkins to view it another way. Right,

848
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,199
Not an accident given who those people were, And of

849
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:09,599
course they're very different attitudes about what this phenomenon was

850
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:12,760
all about. Right, So that's the kind of stuff I

851
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,280
want to try to understand and unpack and how those

852
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,719
role of mediators helped it shape very different perspectives on

853
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:21,559
the phenomenon.

854
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: So do you think that people like John Mack and

855
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,159
Bud Hopkins and David Jacob Sayale come to the table

856
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,800
with preconceived notions before they even started? Is that kind

857
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,960
of your thoughts?

858
00:51:35,039 --> 00:51:39,039
Speaker 2: I think the way I would put it is before

859
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:44,239
before somebody has walked in the door or writes them

860
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,320
a letter, Right, they had some ideas in their mind

861
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,760
that were very fixed, some of them not very fixed, right,

862
00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:56,599
but they had something to call on. Let's face it,

863
00:51:56,679 --> 00:52:01,679
Otherwise you couldn't exactly be a very good counselor or

864
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:06,519
consultant to somebody. Right, if you had no preconceptions, then

865
00:52:06,599 --> 00:52:08,719
I don't know how I would why I would come

866
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,559
to you. Right, they had identities, and people knew this.

867
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,760
And you talk to people who said I deliberately sought

868
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,320
out so and so because I knew about their reputation.

869
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,119
So they had some very clear ideas about what they

870
00:52:22,119 --> 00:52:27,719
were doing. It doesn't mean that they implanted or created

871
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,079
these experiences for people. That's not what I'm saying. What

872
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:34,679
I'm saying, though, is that just as if you were

873
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,519
to go for advice from a counselor, right, which most

874
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:41,239
of us have done in our lives, even if it's

875
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,400
like a vocational counselor, they have something in their minds

876
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,239
about how they're going to talk with us, and that's

877
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,719
going to help shape the way I'm going to start

878
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,280
to think about what was going on that to me,

879
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,800
is a really interesting social relationship, and it's a social

880
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,960
relationship that that is complex and that I think requires

881
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,920
thinking about very seriously, which of course people did at

882
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:08,320
the time.

883
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:13,599
Speaker 1: Now I have to I'm gonna just throw the statue live,

884
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,119
wondering if you wouldn't mind going like another fifteen minutes further.

885
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:21,639
I just feel like this. I feel like I could

886
00:53:21,639 --> 00:53:24,400
talk to you for another few hours, but if I

887
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,960
could have fifteen more minutes or so times, you know.

888
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,000
So I just want to say to that, I want

889
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:32,440
to say goodbye to everyone over at k A Radio

890
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,159
and we'll be back. I'll be down on the Cape

891
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:39,280
cod next week and face to face with Robert Schroeder,

892
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:43,559
who has a nuts and bolts type of theory of

893
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:47,519
how UFOs some UFOs have propulsion. He's a great guy.

894
00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:50,400
I had him on years ago, Robert Schroeder, and he's

895
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,280
an engineer. It'll be a great show next week. So

896
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:56,199
thank you everyone on at KGr A Radio, and we'll

897
00:53:56,199 --> 00:54:00,440
see you next week. So you know, I'm I think

898
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,360
this is this is also fascinating. And to ask you

899
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,400
how you thought, well, I'll just tell you my opinion first,

900
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,039
and I whant I understand yours a little what you

901
00:54:11,079 --> 00:54:17,159
thought about it. I thought John Mack wasn't person first

902
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:23,039
of all. And ironically, I just work at selling a

903
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:26,559
house full of beautiful antiques for someone in Wellesley, Massachusetts

904
00:54:26,599 --> 00:54:29,760
that was a friend of his and was distraught when

905
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:32,239
Harvard was trying to push him out and all that,

906
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:35,800
and saw all the turmoil he went through. But what

907
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,480
I wanted to basically say is when you watched John

908
00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:46,280
Mack with those kids at the Ariel School, he was

909
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:49,719
just wonderful. He was down to their level. He was

910
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,199
not he was not feeding them any information, but he

911
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,199
made them feel comfortable. And I've talked to some of these,

912
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,639
you know, children that are adults now and basically said

913
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,159
He's the only one they really wanted to talk to.

914
00:55:04,559 --> 00:55:06,559
You know, these other people were nice and everything, but

915
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,000
they felt really comfortable around him. And I guess what

916
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:14,760
I'm asking you is, you know, do you think if

917
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,719
John Mack was around today that things would be different

918
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,440
for him. He wouldn't have to go through all the

919
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,960
turmoil that he did at the time. And you know,

920
00:55:24,039 --> 00:55:26,400
I don't even know the full John Mack story. Even

921
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,880
though I've had some people on that one woman Diana

922
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,679
can't remember her name, was going to make a film

923
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,880
about him. But anyway, I don't really know what the

924
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:40,280
genesis of how he started in particular, I don't really know.

925
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,159
Speaker 2: I talk, yeah, I talk about it in the book.

926
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,960
So so it's not a surprise that at all to

927
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,079
me to hear what you say about him and the

928
00:55:50,119 --> 00:55:53,719
way he talked with these children and others. I mean,

929
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:59,519
he was an enormously well respected psychiatrist. I mean, you know,

930
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,800
he was. He was absolutely beloved by his colleagues, right,

931
00:56:05,159 --> 00:56:08,480
who really respected him. And so he was seen as

932
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,920
a very talented person. I mean, this is this is

933
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,119
his training, but it was also his personality. But he

934
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,199
was somebody who always had a very much of a

935
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,679
broad perspective on what his mission was in the world

936
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,119
as a psychiatrist and a researcher, and and you know,

937
00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:32,920
he was well before he got into UFOs and abduction.

938
00:56:33,639 --> 00:56:38,400
He was very interested in two things. One is changing

939
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,920
the world. He became a you know, a climate activist.

940
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:45,559
He was very interested in the peace movement. He was

941
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:51,119
very very much someone who saw himself as as somebody

942
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:53,559
who is going to take an active role in helping

943
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:56,599
make the world a better place. The other thing that

944
00:56:56,679 --> 00:56:59,719
he gets into before he gets into the alien of

945
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,920
ducts phenomenon, is something called trans personal psychology, right, which

946
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:10,559
is this psychology that understands the human personality more broadly

947
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:15,480
as connected to the wider cosmos a kind of I

948
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,360
guess a lot of people would think of it as

949
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,719
something kind of new age, like right, new age age

950
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,360
kind of thing. And so he had already had this

951
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,719
idea that part of making the world a better place

952
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:33,880
also means improving yourself and connecting to really the universe

953
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,559
and seeing yourself as part of really a kind of

954
00:57:36,639 --> 00:57:41,960
cosmic citizenship. And so when he meets Bud Hopkins and

955
00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:47,000
hears about these people who are abductees, he said, I

956
00:57:47,159 --> 00:57:51,079
was absolutely skeptical. And then I talked to them, and

957
00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:53,800
they don't strike me as mentally ill, they don't strike

958
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,159
me as hallucinating. They strike me as very lucid, thoughtful people.

959
00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:01,840
And I'm starting to think that what this is is

960
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,760
something much bigger than I had ever imagined. And so

961
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,079
he saw it as fitting into this bigger picture, and

962
00:58:10,119 --> 00:58:13,880
you know, he himself, you know, he did say, I

963
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,480
think that most of these people are actually having real

964
00:58:17,599 --> 00:58:22,719
experiences about about a reality. He himself kind of hedged

965
00:58:22,719 --> 00:58:26,599
his bets. He didn't. He sometimes said I think they're extraterrestrials,

966
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,119
and then at other times he really doesn't. He backs

967
00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:32,679
away from that. But he did think that these folks

968
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:41,800
were having very real experiences that were worthy and transformative

969
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,199
but also worthy of study, and that they needed help.

970
00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:50,159
They needed help in grappling with something so big that

971
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,079
it sort of defied explanation for themselves. And so that's

972
00:58:54,159 --> 00:58:59,400
how he was open to this prospect in that way, I.

973
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: Say, you know, I'm going to go back and talk

974
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:08,519
about egocentric one more time, you know, having a conversation

975
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,400
with someone off record, not not on this show, but

976
00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:19,639
someone who you know, mentions that they were abducted, and

977
00:59:19,639 --> 00:59:22,880
and I do believe something seriously, you know, did happen.

978
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,039
It's not just it's someone that I know that's very

979
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:31,039
very stable and talked about it. But that same person

980
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:36,679
thinks that whatever it is that is abducting people is

981
00:59:36,719 --> 00:59:39,360
going to intervene, you know, if we do go to war,

982
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:45,599
and I think that's it seems again, like I said,

983
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,480
used this like five times today, egocentrical. You know, it's

984
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:53,440
kind of like, uh, he in particular, is saying this

985
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:58,079
because he says that we're all connected and this he

986
00:59:58,199 --> 01:00:01,599
believes that whatever it is maybe here with us and

987
01:00:01,719 --> 01:00:04,639
has been with us, and it's a higher intelligence here

988
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,599
and they have a lot at stake, and that's why

989
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:11,519
they're going to intervene if we can't make it through

990
01:00:11,559 --> 01:00:14,519
the bottleneck and we start to blow ourselves up. He's

991
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:19,039
totally convinced that they're going to intervene. I don't know

992
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,440
what to think about that, but he says, it's not

993
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:24,039
just us, it's all the species on you know, all

994
01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:27,400
the living species you know, and of course would all

995
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,760
be affected if we blow ourselves up.

996
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:35,039
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, yeah, well right, I see it. You're right,

997
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:38,559
And the term is belief because one doesn't have much

998
01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:41,599
else to go on when it comes to something like that.

999
01:00:41,679 --> 01:00:45,079
But again, the problem, I will say, the one thing

1000
01:00:45,199 --> 01:00:49,119
that happens with most of most historians, most of my

1001
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:52,599
colleagues and friends who are historians, is unfortunately, when you

1002
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:59,719
study history, you actually tend to become a pessimist about life.

1003
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,840
The story of history can be very, very depressing about

1004
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,599
what a human beings and the way the world has worked.

1005
01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:13,119
I I'm sorry, but I also try to as much

1006
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:16,719
as possible, whether I'm teaching or whether I'm writing, I

1007
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:22,599
do try to identify either great, great moments where things

1008
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,119
did in fact change, or people who have made huge

1009
01:01:26,159 --> 01:01:30,000
differences for the better. There's there you can find lots

1010
01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:33,840
and lots of examples of that. We have in fast,

1011
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,559
in fact faced down major crises and walked back from

1012
01:01:39,039 --> 01:01:42,360
real peril in the past, even if, even if it

1013
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,719
seems at times that things are hopeless. So as much

1014
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,760
as I must admit I have a tendency to get

1015
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,000
a little pessimistic, at times, I do hang on to

1016
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,199
a threat of optimism that I'm not willing to relinquish,

1017
01:01:57,519 --> 01:02:01,360
and the belief that there's all a way out. There's

1018
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:05,840
always avenues to get out of these authority situations, and

1019
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,440
somehow we have managed at times to do just that.

1020
01:02:13,199 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: There's the saying I was I do. I don't know

1021
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,440
who said it, but as a it's a wiser yet

1022
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:22,320
sadder man I am. I don't know if you ever heard.

1023
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:24,039
Speaker 2: That, but I had no I like that.

1024
01:02:24,639 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but uh, you know, I mean I'm optimistic too,

1025
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,800
you know, I think you know, but I think it Unfortunately,

1026
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:35,360
I think we're at the point where it really takes

1027
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,679
something major because you know, like if if someone said, hey, look,

1028
01:02:42,039 --> 01:02:45,119
if we give up our cell phones, everyone in the

1029
01:02:45,119 --> 01:02:47,599
world gives up the cell phones, then we can solve

1030
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,880
climate change. I don't think that's going to happen. I mean,

1031
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,360
I'd have to really think about it, you know, and

1032
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,920
it would be like, okay, well, how I know everyone's

1033
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,920
going to give it, you know exactly. It was something

1034
01:03:01,039 --> 01:03:03,599
like that, if there was some type of that we

1035
01:03:03,599 --> 01:03:07,280
we once we get our technology, it's really hard for

1036
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,679
us to let go. And you think of everything that

1037
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,840
powers the earth, everything that we're you know, except for

1038
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:18,519
renewable energy. We're taking the sunlight from you know, millions

1039
01:03:18,519 --> 01:03:22,639
of years and basically going through that energy, and you know,

1040
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:26,840
we're using that energy and not really replacing it much.

1041
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,559
You know. So yeah, I mean I don't know what

1042
01:03:29,639 --> 01:03:32,440
type of road you know, we're on. You know, I

1043
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:33,880
don't want to get depressing either.

1044
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: Easy to do, easy to do at times.

1045
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a question that came in, and please thank

1046
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,519
you for putting in caps and people please do if

1047
01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:46,679
you want to ask a question. Does Greg see anything

1048
01:03:46,679 --> 01:03:53,360
different about the current public discussion? Oh progress us more

1049
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:58,199
towards transparency than in prior times. Thank you for the question, Eve.

1050
01:03:58,519 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.

1051
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:01,079
Speaker 1: You know.

1052
01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 2: I think that that that that folds in really nicely

1053
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,199
with what Martin, you and I were talking about when

1054
01:04:07,239 --> 01:04:12,480
we talked about NASA. I it's just maybe the way

1055
01:04:12,519 --> 01:04:16,679
I think is that is that trying to get transparency

1056
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,840
out of governments is historically been difficult, particularly in the

1057
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,480
modern world. It's just the nature of the beast, and

1058
01:04:24,559 --> 01:04:27,719
I don't know that anytime soon government is ever going

1059
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,880
to change on that. On that count, I think where

1060
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:36,599
you get transparency is through people getting access to information

1061
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,400
that they themselves are able to glean. And so I

1062
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:44,800
put a lot of hope in what seems to me

1063
01:04:45,679 --> 01:04:48,960
something that is very unusual, which is a lot more,

1064
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,920
as I say, academics getting into and studying this stuff.

1065
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,599
And I know at times people can be very cynical

1066
01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:58,639
about US academics and thinking that we're part of the problem.

1067
01:04:58,679 --> 01:05:02,000
But you know, the thing is still to this day

1068
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,239
we are an environment in which we work when you're

1069
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,280
supposed to work transparently. You get to see all my data.

1070
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,960
My book has lots of footnotes, so you know where

1071
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,880
exactly I'm getting my information. Our data is there for

1072
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,559
other people to look at and to criticize. We go

1073
01:05:19,639 --> 01:05:22,519
through peer review where other people criticize our stuff, and

1074
01:05:22,559 --> 01:05:28,159
go to conferences. We don't keep anything from you, And

1075
01:05:28,199 --> 01:05:31,559
in fact, if we're keeping something from you, somebody else

1076
01:05:31,639 --> 01:05:33,079
is going to find it and then come back to

1077
01:05:33,079 --> 01:05:34,880
you and say, then, why didn't you bring this up.

1078
01:05:36,159 --> 01:05:40,159
We're a good place for people going about stuff in

1079
01:05:40,199 --> 01:05:44,400
a really serious, thoughtful way. That says, by the way,

1080
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,559
we don't have to play by the rules of the

1081
01:05:47,599 --> 01:05:52,199
intelligence community, right because we don't have to keep secrets.

1082
01:05:52,239 --> 01:05:55,960
We don't keep secrets. That to me is where the

1083
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,920
future of transparency lays lies. And I will say there

1084
01:06:00,239 --> 01:06:03,400
is a lot of action going on. I think a

1085
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,320
lot of people are not aware of this, but there's

1086
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,760
a lot going on in academia right now. In fact,

1087
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,079
in a few weeks, I'm going to be at at

1088
01:06:10,519 --> 01:06:14,320
I'm helping to organize this conference of the Society for

1089
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,320
UAP Studies that's meeting online. Feel free to come join

1090
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,880
us and listen in on some of the great talks

1091
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,960
we're going to have. But it's a society that is

1092
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:29,519
all about just that scholarly open, transparent research and trying

1093
01:06:29,559 --> 01:06:34,320
to find answers to the phenomenon on all sorts of levels.

1094
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,400
That to me is the future and I think that

1095
01:06:36,519 --> 01:06:38,320
is encouraging. Yeah.

1096
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,159
Speaker 1: So a lot of people are still talking about the

1097
01:06:42,639 --> 01:06:46,239
I think it was called Soul Yeah. Yeah, Gary H.

1098
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,000
Nolan Nolan yeah out in California organized that and I

1099
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,159
wrote to him, I really want to make sure I

1100
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:55,840
get there next year if that, if that's gonna happen again.

1101
01:06:56,239 --> 01:07:01,360
SCU you're talking about they they had a conference already,

1102
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:02,760
like a live conference, right.

1103
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 2: That's a CEU and this is a this is a.

1104
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,519
Speaker 1: Difference is different. What is your organization? Please?

1105
01:07:08,599 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: This is the Society for UAP Studies. It's been around now,

1106
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,000
we've been around for yees a year now, Yes, and

1107
01:07:17,159 --> 01:07:19,639
it is it is it is different than all the

1108
01:07:19,679 --> 01:07:23,199
other organizations, and that it really it's its focus is

1109
01:07:23,239 --> 01:07:30,679
really exclusively built around UH scientific academic research, and it's

1110
01:07:30,719 --> 01:07:33,679
it's all about promoting that and finding avenues for that

1111
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,880
to get to get explored and to get discussed. So

1112
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:41,599
it's not about lobbying, it's not about white papers, it's

1113
01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:46,639
not about policy making. It's really a scholarly organization and

1114
01:07:46,639 --> 01:07:48,880
that's what makes it different. That's what makes it different

1115
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:50,960
from I think a lot of other organizations.

1116
01:07:53,519 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: It's me that I I had, like I'm just looking

1117
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,159
right now, but I don't see it. At one time

1118
01:07:59,199 --> 01:08:02,079
I did have like a graphic on my website that

1119
01:08:02,119 --> 01:08:07,719
would leap do that. So I'm going to ask you,

1120
01:08:07,719 --> 01:08:09,320
you know, once we get done our show tonight, if

1121
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,960
you wouldn't mind sending me, you know, information about that

1122
01:08:12,079 --> 01:08:16,880
so I can yeah. Yeah, and this person, just as

1123
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:21,600
are you accepting volunteers to help the cause? You know,

1124
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:24,640
I mean that wouldn't be you. You're involved, but you're

1125
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,399
not like an organizer, are you in any type of way.

1126
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,119
Speaker 2: I'm an organizer. I'm an organizer of the conference. I

1127
01:08:30,239 --> 01:08:36,239
serve on the advisory board. But I'm sure there are

1128
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,319
there are different sort of departments or departments is the

1129
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:44,960
wrong term, but different aspects of the organization. But one

1130
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:48,760
of the organizations if if you are not an academic

1131
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,159
researcher but you're looking to help get involved. We have

1132
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:56,399
a group who's who work in citizen science, and we

1133
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,880
actually have a whole section of the organization that we're

1134
01:09:00,079 --> 01:09:03,479
courts on citizen science work because we think citizen science

1135
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,720
is one of those things that's really really important in

1136
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:11,199
building You can't just leave this to the to us academics.

1137
01:09:11,239 --> 01:09:14,439
We need to have people from all walks of life involved,

1138
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,800
and so I think you can find that. So what

1139
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,880
I'll do is when I I'll give you them information Martin,

1140
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,960
and you can distribute this information about the conference. You'll

1141
01:09:25,159 --> 01:09:27,399
when you go to the conference site, you'll see information

1142
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:32,760
about the organization and what it's about, how to get involved. Yeah.

1143
01:09:33,039 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, and I very I have selver years

1144
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,560
that I have seen you know, so many people in

1145
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:48,520
academics and science. You know. Finally, to me, it's one

1146
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,800
of the most incredible questions puzzles that could be answered,

1147
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:55,520
you know, that I've seen. And I have to say

1148
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:59,720
that it goes back to the twenty seventeen article coming

1149
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,079
out of in New York Times that I that's when

1150
01:10:02,079 --> 01:10:05,560
I saw the shift where people, you know, I started

1151
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,640
because I used to say I had a few different

1152
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,479
people on scientists and over the years where I'd say,

1153
01:10:12,279 --> 01:10:17,039
why does science not take this topic seriously and look

1154
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:23,760
into it? And I've had answer ranged Trump there's no funding.

1155
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:25,880
We couldn't get funding. And the reason we couldn't get funding.

1156
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,560
Is that there's an end game? You know, you can't

1157
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:34,000
really see closure on this because for instance, you know,

1158
01:10:34,399 --> 01:10:37,720
you see a UFO, it's a fleeting thing. It's not

1159
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:41,319
something that you know, hotspots can be, you know, the

1160
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,239
place where things can be observed a lot. But still

1161
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:49,039
for the average Joe out there seeing UFO, it's maybe

1162
01:10:49,039 --> 01:10:52,199
a once in a lifetime. Like I consider myself that,

1163
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:54,439
you know, I've seen other things, but I don't know

1164
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,399
if they're unexplained. The first thing I saw, I still

1165
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,560
want to say will always be on It explained to me.

1166
01:11:01,319 --> 01:11:06,239
But here's another question here, let's see what are your

1167
01:11:06,239 --> 01:11:10,600
thoughts on the upcoming public hearing? Is there one confirmed

1168
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:11,159
for this fall?

1169
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:15,399
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, is there one apparence might know something we

1170
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:15,880
don't know.

1171
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So yeah, i'd like to know more

1172
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:25,520
about Maybe they just slipped. I never saw it, and

1173
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:27,319
I would like to be there again because that was

1174
01:11:27,359 --> 01:11:30,760
really exciting, you know, to meet with like minded people.

1175
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,560
And a thousand people showed up for those thirty seats,

1176
01:11:34,279 --> 01:11:38,800
which is quite amazing. Yeah, they never saw anything. The

1177
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,479
people that worked there in that building, I forget the

1178
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:43,079
name of the building, but the people that work there,

1179
01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:45,720
they said they have never seen anything like it as

1180
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:49,479
far as people showing up. So but anyway, your book,

1181
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,560
I'm going to it is linked down below in the

1182
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:58,279
text and just it's right behind you after the flying saw. Yeah,

1183
01:11:58,319 --> 01:12:01,920
that's right, it is. Yeah, yeah, there it is right there.

1184
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,000
So yeah, make sure you look at that book. And

1185
01:12:05,239 --> 01:12:08,079
there's a free preview right on our website on that,

1186
01:12:08,319 --> 01:12:10,279
not the whole book, of course, but that just comes

1187
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:14,279
up naturally. But thank you, Greg. It's been a real

1188
01:12:14,319 --> 01:12:18,479
pleasure as always, and I really love having this conversation review.

1189
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,560
It's it's great and I like the fact that you know,

1190
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,399
you look at this with a real balanced, your balanced thoughts,

1191
01:12:28,039 --> 01:12:30,720
but you're not you know, denigrating in any type of

1192
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:34,000
way or or you know, saying, oh yeah, the abductees

1193
01:12:34,039 --> 01:12:35,079
are you know whatever.

1194
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 2: You know, you know there's a responsible would be responsible.

1195
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I like that. But thank you, thank you

1196
01:12:42,359 --> 01:12:46,880
very much, Greg, And as usual, yeah, thank you. Hope

1197
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,640
to talk to you soon. All right, everyone, we'll be

1198
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,079
back next week again with Robert Schroeder'm gonna be down

1199
01:12:52,079 --> 01:12:53,359
at the Cape and he's going to be We're going

1200
01:12:53,399 --> 01:12:56,159
to be face to face and another it should be

1201
01:12:56,159 --> 01:12:59,159
another really show. Thank you so much for watching and

1202
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,439
being here every week, and remember to keep your eyes

1203
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:22,600
to the sky.

1204
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 2: H