WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:02.879 Hey, everyone, Welcome to episode two hundred and twenty two 2 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:04.839 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave 3 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:08.080 park d back there producing in the Shadows, and our 4 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.279 guest on today's show is Frank de Lesio. He spent 5 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.839 twenty six years in the alcohol, tobacco and firearms, mostly 6 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:19.879 doing a lot of undercover work doing infiltrations of motorcycle gangs. 7 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.480 We're really excited to have Frank here today. So Frank, again, 8 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:26.679 thank you for joining us tonight on a Friday evening. 9 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.399 Really appreciate it. Man. I want to start off by 10 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:33.119 just asking you the question we pretty much start all 11 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:35.320 of our interviews with, is about your origin story. I'd 12 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:36.920 like to ask you a little bit about, you know, 13 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.320 your upbringing, how you grew up, and sort of how 14 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:42.600 that took you towards the path to law enforcement. 15 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:49.439 Well, I was born and raised in Youngstown, Ohio, born 16 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:51.799 in nineteen sixty five, and that was at the height 17 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.240 of when Youngstown was really rolling with the steel mills 18 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.119 and everything. My dad was a police officer, was a 19 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:01.759 police officer, we had firemen, so, you know, very ethnic town, 20 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:06.920 melting pot you named ethnicity, and it was there. My 21 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:11.480 family Italian Catholic, a lot of guilt loud at holidays, 22 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:15.200 so you know, you know. So I went to Catholic 23 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:18.200 schools most of my life. So that was challenging too 24 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.319 because I was quite an experience, had a great time, 25 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:23.760 but just a different experience than the public school kids had. 26 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.280 Played football, that was my primary sport. I went to 27 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:31.480 Ursula in high school, graduated from there, and I went 28 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:34.159 down in West Virginia. I won't say I played on 29 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:36.719 a team. I was on the team, but I made 30 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.480 it one year and then it wasn't It wasn't going 31 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:41.799 for me, so I went back and I told my 32 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.799 dad I'm done. Of course, the disappointment, but I moved 33 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.040 to Florida. My brother was living down there, so my 34 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:49.799 buddy and I moved down to Florida. And after a 35 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.159 couple of years and making three dollars and twenty five cents, 36 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:54.680 it wasn't working out, so I said, I got to 37 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:56.319 go back to school. Now. When I was at West 38 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.480 Virginia as a forestry major, believe it or not, so 39 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.280 I had no desire to go into law enforcement whatsoever. 40 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:06.640 But when I went back, I started having conversations with 41 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:09.319 my dad about law enforcement. So I ended up getting 42 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.159 a criminal justice degree. I got out in three and 43 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:12.840 a half years because I just wanted to get out 44 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.639 of school. So when it started comes time to start 45 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:21.360 applying for jobs, I applied to everybody, but ATF. I 46 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:25.840 had no idea what ATF even was. Okay, So my dad, 47 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.439 you got If you don't know anything about Youngstown, it's 48 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.120 a it's a it's the it's the old Italian I 49 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.439 know a guy, and I got a guy, because that's 50 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.520 how it is. Right. So being Italian in Youngstown, you 51 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.560 had as many friends, it might have relatives that were 52 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.879 involved in some things. Right. I remember my grandmother had 53 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:50.280 passed away and we were at the funeral and I'd 54 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.879 only been hired like a week, and my dad says, hey, 55 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.960 somebody wants to talk to you, and I'm like who, 56 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.639 And it was Joey Naples. Now Joey Naples was ahead 57 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:01.919 of the crime family in Youngstown. He goes, and I 58 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:03.199 went over there. He goes, hey, I heard you got 59 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.000 hired by ATAP. But I'm going, okay, the hell do 60 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:08.960 you know that? Right? But it was very small community. 61 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.000 So like in Youngstown, you know, you have people that 62 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:15.400 went into firefighter, you know, they were policemen, public service, 63 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:18.639 you know, working in the mills, the audo industry, US 64 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.759 still republic, still cheating tube. They were huge then, right, 65 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:27.560 So that was your path. But everybody everybody had a bookie, right, 66 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.319 and so you were raised street smart, you learned. I mean, 67 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.199 you hung out of places and everybody got along. Nobody 68 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.199 said anything. I could tell you a story after story 69 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:39.360 about that. I'll tell you what funny one after I 70 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:43.560 got hired on the job. But so my dad goes, Hey, 71 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:45.919 go down and see Freddie Kylitz and Wayne Lovin. Now 72 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.759 Wayne was the rack the res an agent in charge 73 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:50.960 in Youngstown, and Freddy was a friend of theirs. And 74 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:53.719 these guys all hung out at the same bars. So 75 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.319 and they were all revenue guys, right, this was back 76 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.840 in the late eighties. So I go down there and 77 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.159 they tell me about ATF and I'm like wow because ATF, 78 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.719 which I again I didn't know anything, was very diverse. 79 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.240 You know, we got alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. Now, 80 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.360 when it comes to the tobacco and alcohol, unless you're 81 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.560 doing like moonshine, like thousand gallons and cigarettes transporting a 82 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.160 thousand you know, tractor trailer atf for them, won't get 83 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:24.839 involved in that. But it was at the height of 84 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:27.439 you know, they talked about all the undercover they did 85 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.439 when they were doing the revenue or that intrigued me, right, 86 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:32.480 And this was at the height of when crack was 87 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:35.120 just coming on the scene in the United States bad 88 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:38.279 and about the guns and the violence, and that kind 89 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:42.240 of intrigued me. So I took the tea exam and 90 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.600 like most of my compadres who took it, passing was seventy. 91 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.040 I failed at the first time by half a point, 92 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:50.959 and I passed up by two points the next time. 93 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:53.199 And come to find out, when I was at the academy, 94 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.959 everybody's asking about what they scored. What they scored. I 95 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.680 think we only had one guy out of twenty four 96 00:04:57.720 --> 00:04:59.639 at scored above an eighty. So I didn't feel too bad. 97 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.399 Then I had it for like a big dumb ass. 98 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:04.759 And then and then it started. I got assigned to 99 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.279 Columbus and that was my first post, and off it went. 100 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.600 So what was the funny story that you wanted to 101 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:13.600 tell about getting the job? 102 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.720 So I'd been on a job about six months, and 103 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:21.639 uh so I go back to this bar called cyrax. 104 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.199 It was on east side of Youngstown. And the one 105 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.319 thing about the guys back then, Mike's Reki. Those guys 106 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:30.680 never messed with drugs. It was all numbers, right, and 107 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.040 it was all everybody hung out there. Cops hung out there, 108 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.439 Cruft hung out there. But it was like a Switzerland 109 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.720 neutral ground, right. But he ran Numbers out of there. 110 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.560 Well he's dead now, so I can talk about that. 111 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:47.279 And so one time I go in there. My dad 112 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.600 was down there on a Saturday afternoon, and I go 113 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.680 in there to, you know, just to have a drink 114 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:54.920 with my dad. So we had pagers back then, right, 115 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.079 So I get a page, and you could never just 116 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:58.879 go into the back kitchen. You had to ask Mike, 117 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:00.959 can I go back in and use the phone? And 118 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.959 he said, sure, go ahead. Well, first he walked back 119 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:05.000 there to make sure nobody was back there. So I 120 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.040 walked back in here and I dial up the phone 121 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.160 and I'm on the phone talking to my boss well income, 122 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:11.959 and I can never remember the name of this guy. 123 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:14.319 Incomes this guy, he's about eighty years old. All the 124 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.759 tiny guy shuffling in with two grocery bags. And now 125 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.680 they had a big butcher block table in the center right. 126 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.560 So I'm watching him, and I'm watching him, and as 127 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.399 I'm watching him, he starts stumping out all his cash. 128 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.720 And as that's happening, on the phone and Mike walks 129 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:34.240 in and I told him about Hey, I gotta go. 130 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.680 I hang up, and Mike goes, Now, if you got 131 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.519 to do something, you can do it. He goes, but 132 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:42.399 before you do that, I got to talk to this 133 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.399 dumb ass over here. He goes, Hey, do you know 134 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:46.879 who that is? He goes, yeah, he goes, that's little 135 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.480 Frankie Delicio. He goes, oh, he goes, you know what 136 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.759 he's doing right now? He goes, isn't he in college? 137 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.680 Mike goes, no, he fucking graduated. He goes, well, what 138 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:56.519 is he doing? He goes, he works for fucking atf 139 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.279 You idiot, the guy I thought was going to have 140 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.000 a fucking stroke. I walked out of there, and my 141 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:02.720 dad goes, where are you going to go? I gotta go. 142 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.759 I'll talk to you later. And then that, I mean, 143 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:09.120 that stuff happened all the time. I mean this because 144 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.759 the Chunkstown I mean when I was growing up, when 145 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:14.279 the car bombing wars were going on in Youngstown, so 146 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.879 I hung around with this kid, Bobby Pogan right now. 147 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:22.199 His dad was a connected guy, and so we would 148 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.560 go watch Boom Boom Man Sene you fight great gold 149 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.800 Gloves down in Strutt's at the Fieldhouse. Right now. I 150 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.839 never knew anything about this, but it seemed kind of 151 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.240 cool that they had like automatic car starters, you know, 152 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:37.560 and anytime we would go, they would say, hey, we 153 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.720 got to stop here to warm the car up. Well, 154 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.519 that's when everybody was getting bombed, right, So his dad 155 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.879 ended up going to going to jail, He got a 156 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.199 shootout with the FBI. He went away for for some time. 157 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.480 But you know, you just grew up and it was 158 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.079 just a manner of people having guns to see you know, 159 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.399 it was just you culturally, you know, you knew you 160 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.319 were safe. But that's how we grew up in Youngstown. People, 161 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.319 if you're from there, you understand. 162 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.680 Right, right, and so but when you graduated from ATF training, 163 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.079 they put you kind of back into your home turf. 164 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:12.560 Well, you know, yeah, before that, they were well, we 165 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:14.199 had guys that were in New York. They shipped them 166 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:15.519 to LA. We had guys who were in LA. They 167 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:17.240 shipped the New York for whatever you know, because that 168 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:19.240 old adage, well you can't work in your own own 169 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:23.079 hometown because you know that whole FBI think corruption right. Well, 170 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.120 you know, so I ended up down at Columbus, Ohio, 171 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.800 which was another shit show because atf used to have 172 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.360 these things called punishment posts. So if you were an 173 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.639 agent that wasn't performing or got in trouble, they would 174 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:38.679 ship you to these different posts around the country. Well, 175 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.759 Columbus was one of them. Before I got there, they 176 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.120 had hired five new people in Columbus and they still 177 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:47.399 had these three hanger honors and they eventually got rid 178 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.240 of them. Tony Dindarti was a rack and he was 179 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.120 brought in there for nothing else but to get rid 180 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.240 of these guys. I showed up the first day on 181 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.120 the job and the guy who was my training officer, 182 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:00.759 John Lickey, German guy from from Chicago, that we were 183 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:02.720 in a bay are sr desk were butted up to 184 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.559 one another. I'm all full of piss and vinegar. I 185 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.600 sit out at the desk and the other guys are 186 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:10.919 watching him because I don't know John, but they know him, 187 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.799 and he leans over his desk into my face and 188 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.000 he goes atf is a vindictive outfit. They're gonna be 189 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.600 out to get you. That was like five minutes on 190 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.200 the job. A little did I know there was a 191 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.600 lot of truth for that. But anyway, that was my 192 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.720 opening DATF and it was like, holy crap. Well, so, 193 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.679 you know, we had all new guys, and the relationship 194 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.360 with ATF with the Columbus Police Department wasn't really that 195 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:42.960 good because you know, they really didn't interact with them, 196 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:45.159 especially in arctics. Well, like I said, we had a 197 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:46.559 lot of young guys. You know, we went to the 198 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.440 academy the old academys used to be because ATF was 199 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:53.480 very thick in bringing a lot of state and local 200 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.799 guys on because ATF is still one of the only 201 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.919 federal agencies that doesn't require a college degree to come on. 202 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.919 They'll exchange you know, work investigative work for your degree. 203 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:06.080 So we had a lot of state and local guys 204 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:07.799 that were coming on. You know, I didn't have any 205 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.720 police experience. I was twenty four, but it was a 206 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.120 good mix. And back then there was if you were 207 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.159 like twenty eight or twenty nine, you were old. So 208 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.720 they were bringing all these guys on and so we'd 209 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:21.159 go through all our training where that's where I met 210 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:25.200 one of my dearest friends, Dearren Kazlowski, who we kind 211 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:31.240 of passed, went down the same way, and so we're going, 212 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.679 you know, we're going to this training and you know, 213 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.120 and you're learning everything. Well, then it comes to field ops, right, 214 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:40.639 So field ops is the portion where okay, you're going 215 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:42.159 to take all this stuff you learn and you're going 216 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.279 to take it out into the practical exercises. Well, when 217 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.639 I was there, the question okay, how many guys want 218 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:49.960 to work undercover guys and girls, Like, if there were 219 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.679 twenty four people, twenty two raised their hand and said, hey, 220 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.879 I want to do it. Well, when I got was 221 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.519 getting out of the academy, or when I was getting 222 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.120 out of ATF in twenty fourteen, when I go down 223 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:02.879 to instruct you were lucky to get two or three 224 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:06.919 people to raise their hand because they're hiring different types 225 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:12.000 of people, not worse people, but more professional people, you know, 226 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:18.120 so different mindset. Right. So you know, I went through 227 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.039 the academy, I ended up in Columbus. So as soon 228 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.279 as I got there there there was four other guys 229 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:25.879 and then we had our basically our training officer was 230 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.279 one guy Don Mapley, who ended up becoming our boss. 231 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.080 He took us all under his wing, and man, we 232 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:34.720 just get informants and we would just start making buys. 233 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.240 We used informants initially, then we would start rolling in 234 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.120 to make crack buys this, and then we were just 235 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.480 smashing door smashing door, smashing doors, right, So eventually we 236 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.960 started stepping on the Columbus Police departments toes because we 237 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.480 weren't deconflicting, so they were smashing our doors and we 238 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.799 were smashing air doors. But the one thing to come 239 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.799 out of that is they knew we wanted to work, 240 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.200 so the relationship really grew. I mean, you know, it 241 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.159 was a violent time in Columbus. There was a lot 242 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:02.879 of uh, you know, street gangs, not like crips and 243 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:05.840 bloods per se, but more like you know at hop 244 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:08.480 street gangs that were controlling different areas. And then we 245 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:10.679 had the Jamaicans, and then you had the Jaffakans. You 246 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:13.279 had the you know, uh, the guys that were pretending 247 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.600 to be Jamaicans that weren't and everybody believed because they 248 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.039 had an accent, right, but those guys were shooting it up. 249 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.840 It was it was pretty good. You know, and uh, 250 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:23.720 so it was. It was a pretty wild time. But 251 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.399 I'll tell you what. It's great training because you learn 252 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.279 how to do everything. I mean, you were in the 253 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:30.559 middle of everything. That's where we started getting our taste 254 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:34.440 of undercover. And and we were running ops all the time. 255 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:36.039 I mean there are days we were doing three four 256 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.480 search warrants a day, just banging them down. We go 257 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:40.080 make the buys and we go out and do that 258 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.440 kind of stuff. So it was, it was, it was 259 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.440 a great place to learn. And Don was a good 260 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.799 guy because you know, he he he took the time 261 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.679 to train us, train us properly any any and he 262 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:52.840 shielded us from a lot, you know. And I was 263 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:54.919 you had you had guys back then who were stand 264 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.679 up dudes that would fight with uh with management. Now 265 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.120 our sack. Bill Wood was an old revenue or guy, 266 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.720 good guy. If he wore, if you worked, he loved you. 267 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:10.240 He didn't hire anybody didn't play athletics at any level. 268 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:12.519 And we come to find that out after we all 269 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.759 got hired. We're talking. He goes, oh, if you didn't 270 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:16.799 play any kind of athletics, he wouldn't hire you because 271 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.879 he believed that you need no TeamWorks sacrifice, you know, 272 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:21.919 because it was like, you know, Frank, when you come on, 273 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.240 you're going to miss anniversaries, you might miss holidays. And 274 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.679 I took that to heart, you know, and everybody that 275 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:29.799 I know that came on it it's had a successful 276 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.080 career in ATF. You did miss a lot of that, 277 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.159 a lot of personal time you loss with your family. 278 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:37.480 But you know that, you know, that's the conversation you 279 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.519 have with your wife when you get married, and they 280 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:40.600 accept it or they don't. 281 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:43.200 Could you tell us a bit about I mean, was 282 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.159 that the extent of your undercover training at that time? 283 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:47.159 It was sort of OJT. 284 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:53.519 Well, okay, so ATF unlike other agencies because I worked 285 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.279 a lot with FBI, HSI, de EA. They all have 286 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.120 to go to an undercover school before they can work undercover. ATF. 287 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:04.279 You go through the you know, the two week block 288 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.879 at the academy. When you get out, you just have 289 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:08.840 to raise your hand and say I want to work undercovered. 290 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.519 If the rack or group supervisor feels you have the 291 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.200 ability to do it, down the roads you go, now 292 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:17.799 they're going to try to stick you with somebody who 293 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.679 has been doing it or has experience and it's all 294 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.840 OJT work. Now, we did have advanced undercover schools, but 295 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:27.120 it wasn't requirement for you to go, So I never 296 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.039 went to one. I've instructed at them, but because I 297 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.759 was always involved in something, I got invited to go 298 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.799 down and teach. But it was just I would say 299 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.320 for the guys in ATF, ninety nine percent of what 300 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.200 they they they learned, they learned OJT and on the 301 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:42.759 streets and sometimes the hard way. 302 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.960 You mentioned your relationship with the local PD, but you 303 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.919 know ATF alcohol, tobacco, firearms, what you're doing, You're doing 304 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.600 these drug warrants. How did how did you guys fit 305 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:55.799 in with the DEA throughout your career? Did you was 306 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:57.600 there a lot of cooperation? Did you step on each 307 00:14:57.639 --> 00:14:58.600 other's toes a lot? 308 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.279 You know, to be brutally honest, because I'm gonna you 309 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.399 know I we had you know, it's personality driven, Let's 310 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.480 put it that way. You know, sometimes if the boss 311 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.120 is good, your your agencies will click together because the 312 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.440 guys will work good. If the bosses aren't good, or 313 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.799 you got some agents that don't want to cooperate, Hey, 314 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.679 ATF had a chair assholes like everybody else. You know 315 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.799 what I mean, But you try to work with people, 316 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.440 you find those few guys that you to get the 317 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.200 job done, because that's what it's about. So, you know, 318 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.279 I had friends with FBI, I had friends with DA, 319 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.960 but most of the time, you know, they had their 320 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:38.600 task forces and they were recruiting off of the you know, 321 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.440 off of the local police departments. Well, us we went 322 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.720 made our own ad hot task forces with the nark 323 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:48.320 guys that we liked to. I mean, one of my 324 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.440 dearest best friends in the world. He was fifty years old, 325 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:54.639 as old as my dad when I came on. I 326 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.120 did my first long term with him. He was getting 327 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:02.879 out Tom Strasbaugh, I mean the stories, but you know so, 328 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.799 but we were running and gunning and we you know, 329 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.840 it wasn't They didn't give us the respect until we 330 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.080 earned it, and we did earn their respect, and that's 331 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.960 what we wanted to do to where we can get 332 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.240 on equal park and we did with DEA, and we 333 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.519 did with FBI. And some people you can work with 334 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.399 and some people you can't. So you know, there wasn't 335 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.399 such thing as deconflicting back then like the height as 336 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.080 are now and where you deconflict some of your work 337 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.799 so that there's not any blue on blue, uh, you know. 338 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.200 But but that was always contentious because it was a 339 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:33.600 need to know versus a right to know, and sometimes 340 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.080 we didn't. We never deconflicted just because of the sensitivity 341 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:37.600 of the case. 342 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.360 Then law enforcement, what do they call that? Daxing, You've 343 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:42.639 got a dax or decks. 344 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:44.080 I've heard that. 345 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.559 I've heard guys use the term to deconflict. 346 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:54.919 Well, there's texts, uh the treasure. Well, basically height runs deconfliction. 347 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:57.919 So what you do is so what you do is 348 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.000 they have a they have a deconfliction center and other 349 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.119 agencies represented. So if you have a target or an address, 350 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:05.640 or you're going out to do a warrant or you 351 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.519 have an investigation, you're supposed to send that in to 352 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.359 them so that they can make sure that nobody else 353 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.680 is either going to hit the same house or location 354 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.519 and that there's no blue on blue situation. And you know, 355 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:19.759 and if you're working the same target, this is where 356 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.680 it gets tricky. If you identify the same target, then 357 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.640 it becomes who has control of the target, And then 358 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.079 that usually comes down to the US Attorney's office and 359 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:32.079 who's investigraces with them, because sometimes agencies will get walled 360 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.680 out of their own cases because somebody has a better asset. Now, 361 00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:38.480 you'd like to think people can work together and do it, 362 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:39.440 and it does happen. 363 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.119 So if you guys, and I don't know if this 364 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.240 has ever happened to you, but when you guys have 365 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.200 guys on like a deep cover and they're in with 366 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.839 some serious hardcore players, right, some shitheads, and if you 367 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.279 get rolled up by local PD or whatever because you're 368 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.119 in this group of people and they're doing something nefarious, 369 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:01.079 how do you how do you handle that? 370 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.680 When you go to booking and stuff like that, you 371 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.119 go to jail, I mean a lot of times. So 372 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.119 the game has changed significantly on the long term. Infiltrations 373 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:16.279 like guys like like the OG of All Law Motorcycle 374 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.839 Gang infiltrations would have been Steve Martin with Langley and 375 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.279 and Timmy Bunns and there was one other guy and 376 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:25.920 his name's Escaping Me. They did the first which you 377 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:30.000 would say modern infiltration of the Warlocks in Florida, and 378 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.680 it was like, I need to know. There was no 379 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.440 atf T even have OP plans back then, so it 380 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:38.039 was like, hey, we're going to have to do something, 381 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:39.920 and we're gonna do it, and we'll let you know 382 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.720 how it goes. And if something bad happens, we'll call you. 383 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.599 We won't because there wasn't all this oversight, which towards 384 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.240 the end it was a ton oversight. So and that's 385 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.960 where the case is. You know, if you got rolled up, 386 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.400 we get stopped all the time. Right, So we had 387 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:59.880 our identification. But you gotta understand, for atf for the 388 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.559 stop them back in the late eighties early nineties, it 389 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.240 was a collateral duty for one dude in the headquarters, right, 390 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.359 and all he could do is maybe give you a 391 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.000 social security number in a in a credit card, and 392 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:17.000 they fucked that up right as a yeah, no, no, 393 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.759 you could o good, you could yeah and uh. But 394 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.640 but the problem was, you know because now mind you, 395 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.440 there weren't even computers at this point in time, you know, 396 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.839 and the cell phones were the brick phones and you 397 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.119 had the old Motorola gray flip phone, right, so there 398 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.680 wasn't a whole lot of technology. But the cops, right, 399 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.079 they'd stop you, they'd run your license plate or they'd 400 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.599 run your tag. All that stuff was covered, right, So 401 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 you were good. You know, now, if you got caught 402 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.400 with a gun, now, hopefully if you did have cover 403 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.799 team out there you were work with me, they would 404 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.119 flag those guys off so they didn't bother you. But 405 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.759 we had we had our share guys that got arrested 406 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.400 and went to jail, and then you got to deal 407 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:59.440 with it after because then you know, the organization clubs 408 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.759 were looking at you, the gangs looking at you, going Okay, 409 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.680 what's happening now because. 410 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:04.680 They have to maintain their cover. 411 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.519 Yeah, right, so you might have to spend a night 412 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:09.240 or two in jail. We've had guys have to spend 413 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.480 a night or two in jail because you know, they 414 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:13.599 want to do all the bonding out and everything. You 415 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.119 have to get your own attorneys and you have to 416 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.759 work with the judges on that to try to get 417 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.319 that right so you're not spending time in jail. Right. So, 418 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.440 but yeah, there was a lot of times that things 419 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.599 would happen that our guys would get stopped and pull over, 420 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.359 especially on runs you get checked out. But our backstopping 421 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.079 got better, I mean it did over time. Like my 422 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.160 stuff during that time, like in my first case in 423 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.759 Columbus that went three and a half years and it 424 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.240 was all self acquire other than those two things, right, 425 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:45.319 So I had to call people that I know, trying 426 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:46.799 to explain to them what I'm trying to do, and 427 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.880 they're like looking at you with three eyes and you know, 428 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:52.559 but it was all your own back stopping to cover 429 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.799 your ass because you know, but they hired private investigators 430 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.440 to check you out. So it was it was a 431 00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.799 lot different than it is now. You know, the guys 432 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.920 are smart, you know, Federal Penn stay Pin, they're the 433 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.559 best college educational world because they know how we do things. 434 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.079 So they start thinking outside the box. Now you know 435 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.200 how to try to catch us. 436 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:13.880 Well, I don't know if you want to pick up 437 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.279 that straight of thought or we. 438 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.680 Actually i'd love to talk about before we even get 439 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:20.720 into your personal story, I'd love to talk about the 440 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.440 challenges of undercover work and for people who might not 441 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.799 be familiar with like a cover, we talk about backstop. 442 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:31.119 That means that you have a history. If you have 443 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.599 an address and somebody goes to that address like that 444 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:38.200 that there are backstops to your cover. When we talk 445 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.559 about aged cover site, nobody has a credit. You know, 446 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:43.880 if you get a brand new alias, that hasn't been aged. 447 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.279 You have a credit rating of zero because you have 448 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.640 a card that's never been used. You know, you don't 449 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.200 have any kind of you know, uh, places where bills 450 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.559 have ever been sent. And maybe back then it was 451 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.319 harder to check that kind of stuff. Now though, I'm 452 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.839 sure the gangs are much savviier when it comes to 453 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:01.519 checking somebody out. 454 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:03.079 How did how was. 455 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.240 That undercover process for you when you infiltrated, when you started, 456 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:10.200 and then how did it change through the years. 457 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.359 Well, I'm not going to get into the TTP, sure 458 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.880 you know and all that, but what I can tell 459 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.920 you is so when I got went into my first club, 460 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.920 there was no check, right, it was based on my 461 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.279 informant vouching for me, you know, them doing their own 462 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.039 check scene where I lived, you know, just talking to 463 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:32.440 me how I worked, what I did, Right, They did 464 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.480 their own personal thing. But then when I went out 465 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.640 to Las Vegas and was working a vagos, before you 466 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.599 can get in, you had to fill out it was 467 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:44.200 a one sheet application, right, ask you for a copy 468 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.160 your driver's license, copy your social security card, where you 469 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.759 lived and all that, and then you had to pay. 470 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.359 And then they had a private investigator that was going 471 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.720 to obtain some of your backstop like your birth certificate. 472 00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:58.960 You had to tell them where you were born and 473 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.440 all that. And remember when I talked about self acquire, Well, 474 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:07.480 the guy who gave me mine because we had we 475 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:12.240 had a way to do, you know, for credit and 476 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.240 stuff like that. You know, the thing is, it's no 477 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:17.839 secret the bad guys know today because we've passed so 478 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.559 many tests with them that we could take something digitally 479 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.000 and make it appear as good as anybody else on paper. Right. 480 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:27.519 It's the other things that are the challenges today. But however, 481 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.720 so we had we had that, all those mechanisms, well 482 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:35.880 not at that time in place. So one issue I 483 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:41.000 had was so I filled out my application and something 484 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.240 just didn't feel right to me. So I called a 485 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:46.759 buddy of mine who had to use car lot, and 486 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:49.240 I said, hey, run my social security number and tell 487 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:51.880 me what you come back with. So he calls me 488 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:54.480 ten minutes later and he's laughing, which is not good, 489 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.240 and he says, hey, he goes, you got three people 490 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.519 with that same social security number. I go, how to 491 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.559 fucking after people? I go, it supposed to be issued 492 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.839 to me only. So I make my call to headquarters 493 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.359 our special co Operations division, and I talked to the 494 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.359 young man who was in charge of the program and 495 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.200 I said, hey, man, I got a problem with my 496 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:17.960 social He goes, you can't. He goes, he goes, what 497 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.039 number did I give you? And I gave him the 498 00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:23.880 number and their silence on the phone. Then I hear 499 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.319 him go oh shit. I go, well, that's not good, dude. 500 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.480 I go, already gave these guys my info. He goes, well, 501 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.599 that was the number we used to test the system. 502 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:38.400 I had a black mail hispanic mail in me, all 503 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.400 with different credit histories floating around. Now, so that was 504 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.279 one strike because then they start questioning me about that. 505 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:48.559 Then the next strike was I had to acquire my 506 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:50.880 own birth certificate. I had that all lined up right 507 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.720 the day that this that the private investigator makes contact 508 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.599 with the county. Guess what the guy had on board 509 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:04.839 out sick he gets he gets called back to the 510 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.279 to the private in vestcat and he goes, well, you know, 511 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.480 it's a very good forgery, but it doesn't come back 512 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.319 to that guy. So I'm under the hammer, getting hammered 513 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.240 on all this because you know, but the thing is, 514 00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:18.680 greed is a beautiful thing, because they really wanted us 515 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.319 in the club. So they were overlooking a lot of 516 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.519 stuff because I had some shelf alasis, because we always 517 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.240 had multiple and they got into this, why we're using 518 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:28.400 this alien or why were we using that name and not 519 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.480 this one? I said, because I don't know you motherfuckers, 520 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:32.960 you know, and I'm not giving you my real shit. 521 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.319 This is what I'm into. Anyway, they believe that we 522 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.519 went down the road and you know, and then that 523 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:43.359 case ended because the other agent who was working, Darren 524 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:48.440 Keselowski cause who was working the case out and in Hollywood, 525 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.000 got blown out of the water. They found out who 526 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.759 he was. Uh, they still thought we were good, and 527 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:55.799 I got a phone call talking about how they wanted 528 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.279 to kill him. I wanted to kill him too, But anyway, 529 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.440 so that sitting in real well. However, what it did 530 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:05.279 prompt was the initiation of our undercover branch back in 531 00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:07.720 nineteen ninety eight, where they're like, we got to fix this, right. 532 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.799 I had no desire to go into that undercover branch. 533 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.000 I was pissed. I just wanted to go to another post. 534 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.400 But I got yanked in and three other guys were there, 535 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.480 and we actually started our branch and we got a 536 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:23.440 good sponsor and then we start doing our own backstopping 537 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:26.200 the proper way, and you know, and it morphed. But 538 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.480 you know, every time we do an infiltration, like I said, 539 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:33.240 over the course of forty years, I think we've probably 540 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.359 done twenty. Not all of them were long, but there 541 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.200 were some that went long, and we're damaging, right, So 542 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.759 they all talk, you know, they had meetings, even the 543 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.960 adversarial clubs will talk about how they were infiltrated. And 544 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:49.119 I'll tell you it came down to the applications changed. 545 00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.960 When the guys were going into the black rain case 546 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:55.359 out in California, the Mongols case, three of them had 547 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:58.319 to get polygraphed. Okay, they had to pass that. That 548 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.559 was another shit show because I was running a branch 549 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.359 at that time, and you know what ATF's concern was, 550 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.519 this is how fucked up this was. We're talking about 551 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.079 three guys who are getting in. They got a pass 552 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:14.279 the polygraph. If they're in, they're in, right. Their concern 553 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.880 was if these guys learned how to beat the polygraph, Well, 554 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.079 if they ever come under internal affairs investigation and they 555 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.359 have to take polygraph, how we know they won't be 556 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:28.960 that's the pennymess bullshit, right, Yeah, So they ended up 557 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:31.480 all taking the polygraph from passing and then they all 558 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.240 got in and in that case, as sister, they did 559 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:35.119 a whole man. They took down that whole play was 560 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:38.839 that's probably the single best investigation in ATF from start 561 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.000 to finish. The outlaw case in Virginia was very similar, 562 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.920 and the Pagan case up in Long Island where they 563 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.400 actually went and they took out the leadership like the 564 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:53.559 no shit national presidents, international presidents and you know, but 565 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:55.039 go ahead, I'm sorry. 566 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.079 Well, I mean, finish your thought, but I'd like to 567 00:27:57.160 --> 00:27:59.480 backtrack a little bit to your personal experience or your 568 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.279 introduction into into that world. But please continue. 569 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.160 Well, I mean, it's just changed so much that these 570 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.079 guys now, you know, they look at you and it's like, okay, 571 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:14.200 they understand over the course of forty years that we 572 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.000 could look at you all day long on paper, we 573 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:18.480 know you're going to have a house. You know you're 574 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.079 gonna have cars, you're gonna have motorcycles. We had guys 575 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.200 that came to work with us just to verify we 576 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.039 were working to take a look at how we worked, 577 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:28.039 you know, security guys, you know, just to see what 578 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:29.559 was going on. They come and look at your house 579 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:32.319 looking for cameras, they do all that mess, right, well, 580 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.680 you know, then they start thinking outside the box on 581 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.279 what can they get you to do that cops would do, 582 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.240 you know, Feds wouldn't do. You know, they don't worry 583 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.319 about informants because although they can be damaging, they're looking 584 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.480 for the you know, they're looking for the infiltrators, right, cops, 585 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:53.960 law enforcement. So you know, so the game did change 586 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.039 quite a bit towards the end. Guys, we're going through 587 00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.519 some pretty high hurdles to get in these clubs, and 588 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.960 everybody thinks that we got in these clubs because we 589 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.200 wanted to patch. It was never about the patch. You know, 590 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.920 you can only go so far an investigation, right as 591 00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:13.039 a hangaround or an outsider, and sometimes that's good enough. 592 00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:14.720 You could do enough damage doing it that way, and 593 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:18.119 it's better because getting a patch and deciding that I'm 594 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:20.960 going to go in and probate a prospect, which could 595 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.119 be from three months to a year. Right, you're at 596 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.680 their beck and call, and it's hard to do business 597 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.839 because everybody's watching you. So there has to be a 598 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.079 real reason to get the patch, and that's so you 599 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:35.359 can get on the inner sanctum and go further right, 600 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:37.680 But that was never the goal. Everybody else say, you 601 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:40.039 guys just want to get the pat. No, we don't know. 602 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.200 That's the byproduct of the investigation, because then you really 603 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.359 are owned by the club. You know, they watch you, 604 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.559 they look at you, they see what you're doing. A 605 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.759 lot of scrutiny. You know, a lot of those guys 606 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.480 were right for the wrong reasons a choosing. You know, 607 00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.319 all the guys over the years of being cops, they 608 00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.839 just couldn't nail it down except for the one time, 609 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:01.839 but other than that, you know. 610 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:05.400 So walk us back a little bit to you know, 611 00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.279 you're a semi seasoned ATF agent. I take it at 612 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.319 this point when you start doing the long term undercover work. No, 613 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.400 but well, tell us about tell us about your entryway 614 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.279 into that, into that line of work and how that 615 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:18.839 came about. 616 00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.039 So when I was young, you know, I liked ride 617 00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:25.400 motorcycles and mini bikes and all that stuff. Right. So 618 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.480 my one of the agents in the office, Rodney Russell, 619 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:31.119 he had an informant who he did a big drug 620 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.000 reco case on a bunch of black gang members, but 621 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:36.480 this dude was white. But he also had ties to 622 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.559 a lot of the biker clubs. Right, so I'm talking 623 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.119 to Rod. Rod goes, hey, he's got some hooks into 624 00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.640 some of these clubs. He goes, would you be interested? 625 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.319 And I'm like, well, shit, I like to ride motorcycles, 626 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.400 but you know, I've never been around like club life. 627 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.200 I didn't know really what that was about. So that's 628 00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.200 when I start calling Steve Martin and saying, Steve, Now 629 00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.880 he's in the middle of his investigation with the Warlocks. 630 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.519 I'm trying to get educated on how should I act, 631 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.400 what should I what should I ask? You know? What? 632 00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:07.640 You know? How do I not piss these people off? 633 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.039 So he's educating me. Right, So I've been going through 634 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:14.359 a couple of bars in the area, just kind of 635 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:16.839 getting and I didn't even have motorcycle. So my good 636 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.920 friend Tom Strasbaal, who was on the Vice squad at 637 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.480 the time, he had a motorcycle. So I had to 638 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.279 go borrow his motorcycle to go start riding with these guys, 639 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.640 and he was very gracious with that. So so so 640 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.000 I'm riding motorcycle. So I get invited to a part Well, 641 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:35.599 the CI gets invited to a party at this club 642 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:37.759 called the Road Saints on the south side of Columbus. 643 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:39.759 He goes, come on, he goes, this would be a 644 00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:41.480 great place for you to meet. He goes, the Avengers 645 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.400 will be there. He goes, there might be some outlaws. 646 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.359 He goes, there'll be some Road Saints. He goes, this 647 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.200 a good place to get FaceTime. I go, I'm in now, 648 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.000 I'm old. Was I that twenty? I've been on a 649 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:53.839 job like three years, three and a half years, So 650 00:31:54.720 --> 00:32:00.480 this is like try by fire. So the CI shows 651 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:02.319 up himself because he don't have a bike. He's there 652 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:05.759 in a car. So I roll up on my motorcycle. 653 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.759 There's a lot of people there, and you know, hey, 654 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.519 how you doing? How you doing? An hour into the party, 655 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.440 Columbus Police Department and Liquor Control come and raid the house, 656 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.480 and I'm shit in my pan. So I take my 657 00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:23.039 gun because I don't want to I don't want to 658 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:25.160 go to jail, right, So I throw my gun under 659 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.240 the house. I'm getting rid of anything that can be 660 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:29.960 construed as a weapon because we normally carried more than, 661 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.880 you know, one gun. And so the police are patting 662 00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.759 down their ida and everybody, you know. And luckily, because 663 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.599 I had been running out on the streets of you know, 664 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:41.839 if Columbus told stuff that there weren't there wasn't anybody 665 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:48.319 there that recognized me. Okay, So party breaks up. I 666 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.079 go back to the bar the next day to see 667 00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:52.400 what's going on. I sit down at the bar. I'm 668 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:57.319 having a sandwich and a beer. Two Avengers walking, two 669 00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.119 road Saints walking. They pulled me out. Now I'm I'm 670 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.680 on a small guy by any stretch of the imagine it. 671 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.160 In fact, I was. I was bigger back then, you know. 672 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:07.240 And they pulled me out and they put me up 673 00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.039 on a wall at gunpoint and go who the fuck 674 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.079 are you? And I'm like, what do you mean? Who 675 00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:15.000 am I? I go, I'm Tony, Tony Franco, that was 676 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.920 my name, and they go, no, who are you? I go, 677 00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:19.480 I don't know what is So this went back and 678 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.039 forth for a half hour on Hey, I was the 679 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.799 new face that showed up the house got raided. Who 680 00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.640 are you are you? With? Ohio BCEI where I don't 681 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:29.440 know where they came out of that, And it was 682 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.000 like so for like I was getting hammered for like, 683 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:37.160 you know, half hour guns. Well, eventually, I think because 684 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.200 I was young and I was able to talk, you know, 685 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.960 just talk. I had a good gift of gab. They're 686 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.640 like all right, but it was like, you know, we're 687 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:47.920 gonna be watching you kind of deal. So that was 688 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.359 kind of discouraging. So so yeah, a little scary. So 689 00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:55.880 you know, so things kept on and I kept going 690 00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.720 around and then the stroke of luck for me. Now, 691 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.440 at this time, I started pulling my buddy Tom Strasbaus 692 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:07.480 start coming around and he was an art Now we 693 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:09.000 had to be real careful because that guy had been 694 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.519 a homicide and ardvice, so we had to kind of 695 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.400 limit his exposure. But one of the best mentors I 696 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.119 could have ever had in my life. So he taught 697 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:22.360 me a ton and so we're sitting there and I 698 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.440 started pulling him in. Well about a year into this, right, 699 00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.199 we've been buying LSD. We've been buying all kinds of 700 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.920 stuff off the peripheral, the edges and a few club 701 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:37.320 members from the Avengers. Well, I call it my friend now, 702 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:41.480 my informant. I've known the guy for thirty plus years. Right, 703 00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.280 didn't have any criminal history. He had done a case 704 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:48.360 down in New Orleans. Okay, so Easy Rider, if you're 705 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.920 familiar with like Easy Rider magazine, Well, they used to 706 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.440 do like rallies around the country, and Columbus was a 707 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.639 big one, and they actually opened up a motorcycle shop 708 00:34:56.039 --> 00:35:00.519 in Columbus, and my informant and his best friend they 709 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:03.280 ended up going to work there. Well, I got a 710 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.880 call from an agent down in New Orleans and said, hey, 711 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:08.760 I need you to do me a favor. We got 712 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:11.400 to pay Tony some reward money for the case he did. 713 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.039 He goes, do mine, going and seeing him and I'll 714 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.239 send it up. I go, you know, we'll blend. So 715 00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:18.719 we stop at the Easy Rider shop, Tom and I 716 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:21.119 and it had just opened and we walk in. Now 717 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:25.199 his best friend who is now to see Stump, who 718 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:26.880 we didn't know. We go, hey, we're looking for Tony 719 00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:29.639 and he's looking at us. Now. You know, I had 720 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.840 at that time had real long hair, you know, and 721 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:35.320 Tom looked like a bucket of shit too. We rolled 722 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:39.480 in on motorcycles and he's like, he goes, well, hold on, 723 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:41.880 and I see him take off up these stairs. So 724 00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:44.400 Tom and I follow him and we get up there 725 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.599 and there's Tony's standing there and Stump and they're like 726 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:48.480 grabbing shit to start beating the hell out of us. 727 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.280 They're like whoa, whoa, whoa. We're like, what are you doing? 728 00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.239 They go, who are you guys? I said, David sent me, 729 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.480 which was his control agent down and it was like everything, 730 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:01.199 you know, kind of kind of softened out. And then 731 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.440 within talking to Tony, you know, he knew that whole 732 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.039 crowd because he used to be in a club called 733 00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:08.440 the Outright, the Outriders. It was there a long time 734 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:11.480 ago that had become the Brothers, and we just start talking. 735 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.000 He goes, Man, he goes, I get right back in 736 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.079 with those guys. If you want, he goes, I'll work 737 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.320 for you. And then it was like boom. We were 738 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:20.000 off to the races. And for like the next two years, Man, 739 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:24.440 we were running between Ohio, Michigan, Indiana. We were running everywhere. 740 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:29.000 You know, uh, make buys, we dealt with, We dealt 741 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.159 with just about everybody. You know. Uh. We had we 742 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:34.000 had our share issues, but it was a different time 743 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.039 because you know, I would tell my boss, Hey, I'm 744 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.000 leaving Columbus, I'm going to Acor and then I'm gonna 745 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.039 go up to the Muskegan in a couple other places 746 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:43.920 a long way. I'll be gone for a week. Okay, 747 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.000 just make sure you have contact with an agent and 748 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.400 uh let him know if you buy anything. Just make 749 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.880 sure you're passing off. That was our coverage. Yeah, so 750 00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:53.880 that was it. 751 00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:58.239 How if you guys, If you guys, I'm assuming you 752 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.000 weren't necessarily patched at this time with any particular club. 753 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.760 How did you guys get bona fides with these clubs? 754 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.199 Not belonging to anybody in particular, you're just kind of 755 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:12.840 like independent. 756 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.239 You were one of the hangarounds as they say, right. 757 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.800 Well, not for those clubs. We're more like independence. Yeah, 758 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.920 so we you know, we were around, we were doing business, 759 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:28.880 Tony like for the Brothers. Tony was friends with those guys. 760 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.199 So that was the way in the issues we had. 761 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.320 Now the other they had a couple other chapters, but 762 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.800 they had the only other chapter Brothers they had was 763 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.480 up an Akron and then it was the guys up 764 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:44.480 in Michigan. Now the Guys an Akron. They were old school, 765 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.960 hard ass on of bitches man, and they really didn't 766 00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:50.639 have an affiliation with any major club because most smaller 767 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.880 clubs will you know, because they have, dude, They didn't. 768 00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:59.280 The Hell's Angels got along with them. They didn't get now, 769 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:01.400 the brothers along with the breed at all. There were 770 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.119 plenty of times when we went up there, we'd go 771 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:07.000 hunt for them guys, you know, but but the Hell's 772 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.559 Angels left them alone because they did their own thing. 773 00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:13.280 You know, they're a violent crew, but nobody really messed 774 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.079 with them. They did, you know, for a long time. 775 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.519 You know, they did their own dope, guns, grenades, whatever 776 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:23.239 you wanted you can get from those guys. So so 777 00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.239 we eventually Tony, you know, we talked about getting back 778 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.679 into the club, and then Tony got back in. Now, 779 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:32.480 the guy who was the president of the club, his 780 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:39.400 name was wamp he was you know. So let me explain. 781 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:43.400 When we go into clubs, if they're in disarray, we 782 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.920 generally go in and make the club better. We organize 783 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:51.360 the crime better for them, if that makes sense that 784 00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.000 you know, they're all over the board, so we go 785 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.920 in there and organize the crime so they're more profitable 786 00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:00.159 and more streamlined to make money. And they always like 787 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:01.880 that about it. Most of our guys that ever went 788 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:05.800 into a club within either going from a probate or 789 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.960 a prospect usually went to an officer position right away, 790 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:13.800 whether it was sergeant in arms or a treasurer or 791 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:17.320 a vice president or even president. Because we were smart, 792 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:18.800 but we had to be careful. We didn't want to 793 00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:21.119 be seem too smart, like we knew too much, because 794 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.840 we never wanted to say we were coming for another 795 00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.559 club because and then they could check that, right, So 796 00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.960 we just had to be good criminals, and we had 797 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.199 to offer, bring something to the table. And you know, 798 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.960 when you go in as a young guy, what do 799 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:35.840 you got to offer. I mean, you're a new guy 800 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.679 coming in, right, so you're expected to be a little 801 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:41.679 bit more rowdy, you know, maybe fight a little more, 802 00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:44.119 maybe drink a little harder. The drugs were a whole 803 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:48.360 different issue, you know, with that if you guys wanted 804 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.840 the whole simulation, you know, deception with an ATF became 805 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:55.920 a big to do because you know, guys learned how 806 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:58.039 to appear to be doing drugs but not and we 807 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.480 got drug tested and nobody ever popped pausive, you know, 808 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.719 and but we had to make it appear. Now, the 809 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.519 older you got in those clubs, it was easier to 810 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:08.679 fade that off because it's like Hey, I had a 811 00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:11.360 problem a long time ago. I don't fuck around. You know, 812 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:13.840 if you're still dealing at the level you were when 813 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:17.599 you were twenty five and you're now forty, something's wrong 814 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:20.199 with you. Your bad crook, right, So you should have 815 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.360 something about you and your game. You should be able 816 00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:25.679 to throw some money around and look like you know, 817 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:28.280 it's all smoking mirrors, you know, make them believe what 818 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:31.440 you want them to believe about your business. Yeah, how 819 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:32.599 do you guys. 820 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:36.800 Like avoid if you go in and you organize the 821 00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.320 club so they do crime better? 822 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:40.400 How do you avoid it? 823 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:44.519 Like the sort of the entrapment angle that a defense 824 00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:45.599 attorney's going to bring. 825 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.480 Okay, so we don't tell them how to do a crime, don't. 826 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.440 We don't direct the crime. Right, they're talking about how 827 00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:56.199 they're moving their drugs, and they're talking to us about 828 00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.480 how they're doing it. And you know, so we have 829 00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.000 this thing, you know, it's out there street theater where 830 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.360 we do blue on blue deals that make the bad 831 00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.920 guys look like we're doing actual deals, but it's actually 832 00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:12.599 with cops, right or other law enforcement, and they see 833 00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.360 all you're legit because and we'll bring them along as 834 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.559 bodyguards will pay them and all that kind of stuff, 835 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:20.679 you know, but we don't direct the crime, Paul. We'll 836 00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:22.360 do is we'll go in there, and we'll go in 837 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:23.880 there and we'll say, well, how do you guys do it? 838 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.440 It's like, well, you know, and we'll get into you know, 839 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.159 how much they're selling, where they're selling, who they're selling to. 840 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.079 You know, there were a lot of times in these clubs, 841 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.440 so you know, it's like anything else. You spent a 842 00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:40.880 couple of years with people, You're going to get relationships. 843 00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.239 You're gonna find people we actually like. You know, there 844 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:46.280 are only as a good as Tom Wance told me, 845 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:48.679 he goes, there's only a few people in this world 846 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:51.159 that don't have any redeeming qualities. And we came across 847 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:53.400 a few of them. But most of these guys are 848 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:56.360 likable or so the girls. I mean, you know, they're crooks, 849 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:00.519 they could be assholes, but most of them are. Then 850 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:03.280 you got the others that are just in these gangs, 851 00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:05.519 in these clubs because they want to be a part 852 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.360 of something feel special, right, I can't tell I could 853 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:10.960 tell you probably every guy that's done an infiltration and 854 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:14.199 tell you they had somebody or a couple of people 855 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:17.079 in the club. We I had at least three that 856 00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:18.280 would come up and say, hey, we want to get 857 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:20.480 in the game. No, you know, why do you want 858 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:22.119 to get in the game. I need to make money 859 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.199 for my family. This isn't the way, dude. You know, 860 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:27.159 if you get caught, you're going to prison. Yeah. And 861 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:29.440 some of those guys you would make see the light 862 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.159 and you could steer them, and then some were so 863 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:34.679 held bent on it it was like, all right, dude, 864 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:36.440 you want in a game, this is what we need, 865 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.480 go find it. And then you know, you're saying, you know, 866 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:41.599 you try to give them some consideration on the back 867 00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:44.679 side out but they but they go to prison, right 868 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.280 because they don't want to listen. You know, you can't 869 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:49.039 just say, hey, I'm a cop, don't do this, right, 870 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:50.679 but you kind of steer them away that it's not 871 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:51.800 the right thing for you to do. 872 00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:56.039 Yeah, Frank, for for people, the uninitiated people, most people 873 00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:58.159 are not going to be nearly as initiated as you were. 874 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:00.800 Could you explain a little bit about what an outlaw 875 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.440 motorcycle club is like, what that culture is like, the 876 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:06.239 old ladies, the three piece patch, all that kind of stuff. 877 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:11.320 Yeah, So, you know, so that Outlaw Motorcycle Club is 878 00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:15.440 generally distinguished by a three piece patch, which means you 879 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:17.880 have the top rocker, you have the bottom rocker, and 880 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.000 you have the center patch. And the center patch is 881 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.000 usually going to be the mascot. Right, So let's just 882 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.960 take the Outlaws, we'll say, right, So the top of it, 883 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.480 we'll say Outlaws. The center patch is the skull and 884 00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:31.880 cross pistons, which they refer to as the Charlie, okay, 885 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:36.639 and then the bottom used to be city designators now 886 00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:39.360 some of the old chapters and in most clubs they'll 887 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:41.840 still have a city designator, but now they've all gone 888 00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.559 to states for the most part, you know that they 889 00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:47.519 own the state, and then they'll be the MC, the 890 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:51.159 motorcycle club, right, so, you know. And then on the 891 00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:55.559 front they'll usually have various other patches and memory patches, 892 00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.559 and they're stages. So you start as to hang around 893 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:01.159 and that could be as long as they want to 894 00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.760 get to know you, right, and it's changed dramatically, and 895 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.840 then you go through a prospect phase. Prospect probate are 896 00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:12.320 interchangeable depending on the club you're in, right, and that 897 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:14.800 period could be from three months, it could be up 898 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:18.239 to a year, okay, Hell's Angels have have the longest that. 899 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:21.840 You're generally a year. Everybody else folds in there somewhere, right, 900 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:26.800 And then while you're prospecting and probate, you pretty much 901 00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:29.400 are owned by the club. So you got a sponsor, 902 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.639 somebody sponsors you. You have to get you have to 903 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.239 get voted to even be allowed to prospect probate, okay. 904 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.199 So then once they say okay, then you're responsible to 905 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:41.039 the club. People call you. You got to do all 906 00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:43.360 the bullshit. You got to watch the bikes, you got 907 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:46.119 to clean the house. You know. We had guys that 908 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.440 were digging trenches for their bosses, their yard work, I 909 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:51.800 mean whatever. They're not supposed to do that kind of stuff. 910 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.239 But pretty much, you're there, bitch, until you get voted in, 911 00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:57.960 and the vote has to be unanimous or if one 912 00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:01.800 guy says no, you're out. So, and when it was 913 00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:04.800 originally used to be to the charter, to the chapter right, 914 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:07.960 charter is pretty much what the Hell's Angels call it. 915 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.800 Everybody else is a chapter right. Some people say charter, 916 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:14.719 but mostly it sells angels to use that. And so 917 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.679 you come up for vote right, they vote you in 918 00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:20.000 and then you get your full patch, which means in 919 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:22.360 their phase. It's like a lot of clubs will have 920 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.079 like if when you're a probate or probationary, you'll have 921 00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:28.400 a patch that says probate or probate probationary member of 922 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:32.440 the club. Sometimes they'll give you the bottom rocker, just 923 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.000 the bottom rocker and the MC. Sometimes they give you 924 00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.239 the bottom rocker and the top rocker sometimes, and then 925 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.880 you progressively earn your patch until you get the center patch. 926 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.760 Then they have probationary members guys that they bring in 927 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:47.320 as full patches. You get a full patch right out 928 00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:49.679 of the gate, but then you'll have like a P 929 00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.159 or something that says you're a probationary member, which means 930 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:54.639 you're a full patch, you have all the rights, but 931 00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:57.400 you're still on probation for a year. So they do 932 00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.440 that in special cases when they want to bring guys in, 933 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:02.119 they think bring something to the table. So it used 934 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:04.519 to be like there was a tree on how this went. 935 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.360 That's a shrub. Everybody kind of does their own thing 936 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.079 on how they bring guys in, you know, And it 937 00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:13.840 used to be where the chapter charter would vote for you, 938 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:15.920 like if you had eight guys in there, those eight 939 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:18.719 guys would vote. Now a lot of time it goes 940 00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:21.719 to a national vote, like you know, because now they 941 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:26.559 send pictures. Does anybody know this guy? They send pictures 942 00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:29.400 into the prisons. They do their real due diligence on 943 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:31.360 you to make sure that nobody knows you as a 944 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:34.000 component informant before they bring it in because they've been 945 00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:36.159 stung so many times. I mean some of these clubs 946 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:39.039 been stung two three times by ETF. 947 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:43.719 And the drug I mean, correct me if I'm wrong 948 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.480 that the drugs, explosives, prostitution. I mean they tend to 949 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:48.599 be involved in a lot of that. 950 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:52.639 Yeah, I mean you're going to have obviously, you got 951 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.960 the felons with the guns. There's a lot of extortion. 952 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.880 There's you know, a lot of home invasion, you know, 953 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:03.800 a lot of drug dealer, you know, gun running, a 954 00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.360 lot of explosives you can purchase. I mean, it's pretty 955 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.199 much everything. They got their hand in prostitution. You know 956 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:13.480 the thing about motorcycle clubs, it's like, you know, if 957 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:17.760 you're not involved in that game, they're ghosts to you. 958 00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:20.920 People They might notice a motorcycle going down the road, right, 959 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:24.639 but they don't notice the club because they stay to 960 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.280 their own element unless there's a reason to come out 961 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.719 of that element, because that's where their power and fear is. 962 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:32.719 So you know, like take my mom, Oh I thowt 963 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.039 a Hell's Angels rolling down going down the road the 964 00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.480 other day. No, Mom, no you didn't. I go, what 965 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.880 did the thing on the back look like? She goes, 966 00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:42.239 it was like a big pig. I go, Well, that's 967 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:44.599 not a Hell's Angel, mom, you know, but that's what 968 00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:47.400 everybody knows, you know. So everybody's a Hell's Angel. Everybody's 969 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.280 an outlaw motorcycle game member. They want as a little 970 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:53.079 do with the public as they want the public to 971 00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:55.039 do with them for the most part, other than trying 972 00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.079 to show a good posture like the toys for Tots 973 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:01.000 and all that stuff that they try to do. But no, 974 00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:03.719 I mean so the people are oblivious to them unless 975 00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:05.159 you live in that world. I mean still today, I 976 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.000 ride down the road pack a bicca by I'm looking 977 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:08.960 over my shoulder to see who they are, just because 978 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:11.719 I you know, that doesn't leave you right. Yeah. So, 979 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.559 but people, if you don't live in that world. But 980 00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:17.400 it's a violent world. It's a very violent world. I 981 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:21.880 mean women, you know there, you know, there's property of women. Now, 982 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.760 either you belong to the club or you belong to 983 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.000 a member. If you belong to a member, she hands off. 984 00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:29.519 If she belongs to the club, it's game on right 985 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:32.840 to you know, and they serve at the beck and 986 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:37.920 call women have. You know, it's you know, the club, 987 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.679 the bike, and the women. Now a lot of guys 988 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:42.639 won't tell their women that because they're afraid of them. 989 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:44.599 But that's really how it goes, you know what I mean, 990 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.559 women are the that's the least concern on what's going 991 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:50.039 on with those guys. Most of those guys, you know, 992 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.280 it's the club first, because in the end, it's all 993 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.159 about loyalty. Loyalty to the club. That's what it all. 994 00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.239 That's what it all comes down to. In that patch. 995 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:02.480 And that first and filtration out of Columbus where you 996 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.840 guys were running around doing cross state buys and everything. 997 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:08.880 I mean, how how deep did you end up going 998 00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:09.639 on that one? 999 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.760 Well, I had my patch for about a year and 1000 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:17.079 a half. In that one, I became the sergeant at arms, 1001 00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:21.639 by informant became the president, and I mean we that 1002 00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:25.559 was you know, the Brothers. It wasn't a big club, however, 1003 00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:32.400 it offered a lot, so we seized the the Outlall clubhouse. 1004 00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:35.320 There was another, a black one percenter club, true one 1005 00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:38.039 percenter club called the Fantoms. They were based out of Chicago. 1006 00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:41.800 They had a clubhouse in Columbus. We had another informant 1007 00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.360 who was the only white member of that club. He 1008 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:47.440 was married to black girl, and he brought us in 1009 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:50.119 and we had stars and bars on our stuff and 1010 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.480 they didn't care because it was about business. I'll tell 1011 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.599 you a funny story about those guys. So they loved us. 1012 00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:58.360 They just loved us so and we met them before 1013 00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:00.679 we even got in the club because he was running 1014 00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:04.199 while our other informant was running. So you had the Avengers, 1015 00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.960 you had the road Saints, Like I said, the Outlaws. 1016 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.000 I mean we ended up season like six or seven clubhouse. 1017 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:11.920 We put like one hundred and thirty people in jail. 1018 00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:13.679 It was a lot of dope, a lot of guns. 1019 00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:17.880 It was crazy. But it's one of those things where 1020 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.000 it wasn't We weren't focused on one club. I mean, 1021 00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:23.079 we were in the Brothers and we were focused on 1022 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:25.880 those guys, but we used it as a catapult to 1023 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:27.960 get in because the Outlaws were recruiting us hard to 1024 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.679 jump over there, and we're like no, because we didn't 1025 00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:32.440 want to go. We we got a good thing going 1026 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:34.639 in that club because we could write our own ticket. 1027 00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:36.960 We went, Tony and I went wherever we wanted to 1028 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.440 go at any point in time, and the club didn't 1029 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.079 ask us any questions. Where if we were in a 1030 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.960 big club like the Outlaws, people be watching you. There's 1031 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:45.840 you know, they have mandatory runs, they have all this 1032 00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:48.199 Southern baloney. You got to you got to do to 1033 00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:49.679 be in the club. So we were in a good 1034 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:52.360 spot there, but we were able to, you know, get 1035 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.000 into a good position with a lot of these clubs 1036 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:56.280 to they arrest a lot of people. 1037 00:50:56.599 --> 00:50:59.159 And when did that or what was that decision point 1038 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:02.039 when I assume the US attorney is like, Okay, this 1039 00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:07.960 investigation's over. Now we're moving in and making arrests. 1040 00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:12.559 It's never the US attorney's decision, and it's always ATF's decision. Okay, 1041 00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:15.800 And ATF's decision is, well, you guys have been running 1042 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:18.760 a long time now. At this point, we had just 1043 00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:22.599 made another move into another club up in Michigan, which 1044 00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:24.599 was going to be really good for us, but it 1045 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:26.880 was like, Okay, you guys been in a long time, 1046 00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:29.239 three and a half years doing this, It's time to 1047 00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:31.440 take it down. We weren't ready to come out, but 1048 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:33.719 you're going to do what you gotta do. Because we 1049 00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:37.360 also got involved in this big cocaine distribution ring where 1050 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:41.239 they were bringing cocaine off the coast of Florida in 1051 00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:43.880 Marathon and they were running it up to Severeville in 1052 00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:46.760 Tennessee and then they were bringing it up through Columbus 1053 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:48.800 and up and then the North. But we ended up 1054 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.639 tying into this young kid who we were buying off 1055 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:55.079 of and he laid out the whole operation, which enabled 1056 00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.320 the Columbus Police Department de EA to go up on 1057 00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:02.119 a wire a Title three and they're like, hey, we 1058 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:04.559 got to take this down. So that was another catalyst 1059 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:06.119 that kind of drove our case because they were going 1060 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:07.519 to take it down and we would have been outed, 1061 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:10.679 you know. So wow. 1062 00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:18.280 Yeah, it's fascinating, like when you're because motorcycle gangs, but 1063 00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:22.719 like so much of crime, right, we think of the mafia, 1064 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:24.800 we think of motorcycle with the gangs, we think of 1065 00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:29.920 street gangs, but they are all partially tied together when 1066 00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:34.679 it comes to in terms of like spreading drugs, like 1067 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.280 like a certain element might own a piece of it. 1068 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.840 But but they're all somehow a lot of times interwoven. 1069 00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.719 Well. Traditionally, Hell's Angels and especially the Outlaws and Pagans 1070 00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:51.800 have all done work for tradition l C. You know, 1071 00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:57.760 they were their muscle, you know, uh, you know it 1072 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:00.639 just historically it's there. You know, They've always played a 1073 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:03.360 role in that, you know, in the traditional you know, 1074 00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:06.800 mafia type of deal doing, whether they were moving product 1075 00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:09.679 or whatever. That's that's always been around. I don't know 1076 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.000 so much now that it is in the United States 1077 00:53:12.039 --> 00:53:15.119 because there's really not that much. You know, from what 1078 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:18.280 you see, it's more Armenian, Russian and everything else that's 1079 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.360 controlling the underground more so than the Italians. But you know, 1080 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:23.639 I could be one hundred percent wrong on that. I 1081 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:25.920 don't know. But the clubs are still involved in what 1082 00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:29.480 you're seeing more now is the traditional white clubs, right, 1083 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:34.079 the motorcycle gangs, because there are you know, the traditional 1084 00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.960 Ala motorcycle gangs you know are white and Hispanic, right, 1085 00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:40.719 they don't allow the blacks in. If they do, it's 1086 00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:43.239 an anomaly, right, Like a lot of clubs, like the 1087 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:47.000 bigger clubs can't have them, just can't. They're not accepted. 1088 00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:53.119 But then you have one percent of black clubs like Thunderguard, 1089 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:57.880 you know, outcasts clubs like that violent all are they violent? 1090 00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.280 And they kind of pair up with some of the 1091 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.159 traditional omgs and they're doing a lot of business together 1092 00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:06.079 now because you know, they're all it's all about controlling 1093 00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:09.480 turf and whatnot. In the old ways of where you 1094 00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:14.119 know you had, it was very delineated on what clubs 1095 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:17.000 were where. Now it's not. They've all crossed over. And 1096 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:20.199 that's why you're seeing more shootings, more violence happening, because 1097 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:24.280 it's just there's no more lines of delineation. Everybody's starting 1098 00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:25.480 still fighting for their turf. 1099 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:31.199 Interesting, so that one winds down and then as a 1100 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:34.760 as an undercover officer, I mean, I presumably you have 1101 00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:37.400 to appear in court right as an ATF agent and 1102 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:43.039 testify yes, And I mean does that I'm just curious, like, 1103 00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:46.079 doesn't that totally blow your cover as an undercover officer, 1104 00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:48.400 like indefinitely? I mean in your case, it didn't, but 1105 00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:50.400 I mean I'm curious how that works. 1106 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:55.519 Well, so I'll tell you. So most guys that I 1107 00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:57.679 know that have done these cases, and in ATF there's 1108 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.480 like ten or twelve guys that have done these cases, 1109 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:03.599 and some have done multiple. Right. So when you're in 1110 00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:06.559 those clubs for that long and you're ron those guys, 1111 00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:10.519 you form allegiances. And I'm telling you, the night before 1112 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.440 the takedowns go down, and I've had conversations with all 1113 00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:16.679 my buddies, it's like, man, I want to call this 1114 00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:19.480 one dude and just tell them to run, you know, 1115 00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:24.000 because then the Judas effect comes in, right, because it's twofold. 1116 00:55:24.039 --> 00:55:26.599 The Judas effect comes in because it's there. Right. These 1117 00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.280 guys were guys that are on a street, something happened, 1118 00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:31.599 they had your back, they'd kill they fight for you 1119 00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:35.559 without question, right, So you had that. Then the other 1120 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:37.920 side of it is is, Okay, I've been this dude 1121 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:42.679 for like two years, three years. I knew what I 1122 00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:46.000 was doing all the time. Now this is going to 1123 00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:48.559 be over and I have to reintegrate back into the 1124 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.519 normal agent. Right, So you're thinking about that kind of stuff. 1125 00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.239 So you know, when you look at how these things 1126 00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.280 in and then I can tell you this much every 1127 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:03.039 case that I've worked or I've helped work, and you know, 1128 00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:04.960 a lot of times they'll bring guys into dune these 1129 00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:08.159 cases when they have takedown to come interview certain people 1130 00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.199 to try to move them along to cooperate what our 1131 00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:13.599 cases were done. And we had hard heads that didn't 1132 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:16.440 want to cooperate. The day they were taken down, we'd 1133 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:17.920 walk in the room and they would look at you 1134 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:21.159 and go sign up a bitch, you know, and some 1135 00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:24.880 of them would be, hey, we understand it was a 1136 00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:28.639 job and they get it, and or others didn't give 1137 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:30.840 a shit. You know. One of the biggest things they 1138 00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:33.920 get wrapped around on. You know, because when you're talking 1139 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:36.199 to these guys, you're bringing in about ninety percent of 1140 00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.960 your true life, just changing names, and you know, and 1141 00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:42.440 if things happen and you tell them stories, they you 1142 00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:46.280 know where there might evoken emotion out of them. They 1143 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.000 want to know, did you lie about that? Yeah? Was 1144 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:51.760 that real? Yeah? Because if you lied about that, Daniel, 1145 00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:54.239 real asshole? But okay, because they just want to see 1146 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:57.079 how far you would go. Sometimes you straight out live 1147 00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:00.239 about some things. But you know, but but it was 1148 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.760 a very unique dynamic. I mean every case that I did, 1149 00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.239 you meet those guys and it's like, man, you know, 1150 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.840 in another world we might have been able to be friends, right, 1151 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:12.000 But then again, if they knew who I really was, 1152 00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:14.199 would they really be friendly with me and treat me 1153 00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:16.920 the way they treat me? Right? Right? You know? 1154 00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:19.199 But if you weren't, if you weren't atf and they 1155 00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.360 weren't you know, in an outlaw bike gang, had you 1156 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:23.639 met that are completely different? 1157 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:25.960 Two different people like that. 1158 00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:30.360 This was somebody And you know, it's interesting because when 1159 00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:32.760 we talked to like c I a case officers, a 1160 00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:35.440 lot of times they'll say sort of similar things that 1161 00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:37.840 you know that the people they work with, you know, 1162 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:41.679 the their agents or you know, the people, like they 1163 00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:45.480 developed a report form with them, and this person might 1164 00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:48.199 be a shithead doing shithead things. But it's like when 1165 00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.239 you get to know somebody as a human being, if 1166 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.280 they're not just all shithead like, there's there are elements. 1167 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:57.840 There's Yeah, we had we had this one guy when 1168 00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.239 I was doing the Brother's cases. Name was Doc and talk. 1169 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:03.440 He was a drug dealer, but you know he went 1170 00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:05.960 a violent guy. I mean, he was a likable, real 1171 00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:09.039 likable guy, you know, And there were certain members who 1172 00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:12.079 would get together because it's very clubs are very cliquish, 1173 00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:15.440 you know, they just are. And U he called up 1174 00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:17.559 one day his son was a drug dealer too, and 1175 00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.280 somebody went up on his to his to his son's 1176 00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:24.280 house and shot him forty seven times with an ak right, 1177 00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:29.199 And of course, you know his dad, who could be violent. 1178 00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:32.760 I mean, he wanted to go start kidnapping people because 1179 00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.360 it was his son was involved with some black gangsters, 1180 00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.320 and he was just ready to start smoking everybody, you know. 1181 00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:40.760 I mean, we felt really bad for him, and we're 1182 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.079 trying to talk him off the ledge, which we did 1183 00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:45.719 because you know, we did have genuine concern. We could 1184 00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:48.639 have said, yeah, well go screw yourself and go do 1185 00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:50.480 whatever you want. Doc, We're not getting involved in that, 1186 00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:53.840 and he'd probably got himself killed, you know. Yeah. In fact, 1187 00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:57.039 he liked me so much. After he had he had 1188 00:58:57.039 --> 00:58:59.320 a lot of medical problems. We helped him out because 1189 00:58:59.320 --> 00:59:02.519 he had backhand. He after we we arrested him. Within 1190 00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:06.480 a year he was dead, but Tom Strausbon and I 1191 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:09.000 went over to visit him after he got I went 1192 00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:10.960 to his house. He actually got a dog and he 1193 00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:13.480 named it after my undercover name, So I guess I 1194 00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:16.760 got that going for me. Yeah, so no, you do 1195 00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:17.760 form those bonds. 1196 00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:22.320 Yeah. After that initial case was prosecuted, I mean, then 1197 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:24.599 what kind of I mean, now you have a ton 1198 00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:26.679 of experience in this world. I mean, how did the 1199 00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:30.599 segue into the next infiltration happen? 1200 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:34.039 So a part of the case that we were dueling 1201 00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:36.760 in Columbus took us out to Las Vegas and we 1202 00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:39.440 were dealing with some guys out there, some some Mexicans 1203 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:41.159 out there, and we were buying meth. We were buying 1204 00:59:41.159 --> 00:59:45.400 pounds of meth and bringing it back. So so there 1205 00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.599 were some threats made and you know atf they're just terrible. 1206 00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:51.840 You know, somebody makes a threat and the first thing 1207 00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:53.880 is they want to move you. Right, I'm like, why 1208 00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:56.000 don't you go? So let me back up and tell 1209 00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:58.039 you a quick story. Sure, you guys will appreciate this. 1210 00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.159 How times have changed. We had an agent in Cincinnati. 1211 01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:06.440 He was investigating the Iron Horsemen, okay, and they tried 1212 01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:08.719 to run him down with a car while he was 1213 01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:12.519 on the street. Now, the sack at the time was 1214 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:16.199 Bill Wood, an ornary man. And you know he's a 1215 01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:20.800 quarterback at South Carolina. He is a revenue. He calls 1216 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.519 up my boss in Columbus and he says, I want 1217 01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:28.199 Frank and I want Dan. He goes, you send him 1218 01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:31.599 the Columbus and he's gonna meet some boys there. He goes, 1219 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:34.480 and you're gonna go have a talk with the president 1220 01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:36.559 of that club and you're gonna tell him what's what. 1221 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:40.519 And we did. He sent us down. There are four 1222 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:42.559 of us, went with one of the one of the 1223 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:45.079 agents from Cincinnati. Knocked on the door to check the 1224 01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:46.840 president come out and he goes, gonna help. He goes 1225 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:50.079 and he laid it out. He goes, you guys fucked up. 1226 01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:53.119 He goes, we're gonna find out who did it, and 1227 01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:55.079 then we're gonna fuck with your club every step of 1228 01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:58.480 the way until you guys turn in who did it. 1229 01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:01.840 Within twenty four hours, they turned the guy over. That's 1230 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:04.320 how you handle business. It's not like you said. They're 1231 01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:10.119 shee your nails. They knew again. Crooks don't Crooks don't respect. 1232 01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:14.159 Excuse me, sir, how are you doing today? They power 1233 01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:17.960 fear might. That's what they respect. If they don't fear you, 1234 01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:20.199 they're not going to do anything you say. They're not 1235 01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:21.920 going to come around. They're not going to talk to 1236 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:23.480 you because they're going to look at you like you're 1237 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.400 a big puss, you know. So that ended that. I 1238 01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:29.960 mean they turned a guy in. Well, ATF didn't do that. 1239 01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:34.280 In my case, it was like, Frank, there's four offices 1240 01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:36.320 that are open and three of them were shipped and 1241 01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:39.800 Las Vegas was the only one. And my wife awesome. 1242 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:43.400 She was always willing to work. And I I, you know, 1243 01:01:43.519 --> 01:01:45.719 I had a conversation with her before we you know, 1244 01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:48.440 we got married, and it was like, look, because we 1245 01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:52.400 got married during my case and I owned that case. Yeah, 1246 01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:55.000 I was, and I and I told her, I said, 1247 01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:56.880 you know, this is what I do, this is what 1248 01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:58.760 I like to do. And she liked to move. So 1249 01:01:58.800 --> 01:02:00.679 when I asked her, I said, how about Las Vegas? 1250 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:03.519 She goes, let's go, because I knew the boss out there, 1251 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:04.880 and I'd already been out there, and I knew the 1252 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.320 work was good. Plus they had just started an investigation 1253 01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:10.559 because they called me and knew I was getting transferred. 1254 01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.000 They were starting a case into the vogos who were 1255 01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:16.679 recruiting real heavily out there at the time. So we 1256 01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:21.880 packed up and we moved, and as soon as we 1257 01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:25.599 got there, it was like Okay, vogos are recruiting. So 1258 01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:30.639 I brought my informant, Tony out to Las Vegas with us, 1259 01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:34.159 and went out with me and my wife. He lived 1260 01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:35.679 in it. We got a house and he was living 1261 01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:40.079 in here, and that's where I was living and with Stump. 1262 01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:44.320 And so they said, just go to this tattoo shop. 1263 01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:46.440 And this guy, Sharky, who is a vogo, he goes, 1264 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:48.360 he'll recruit you guys right in. Did you guys are 1265 01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:52.599 big dudes? He'll ask you right in. So I didn't 1266 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:54.920 know how good the tattoo shop was. So the informant 1267 01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:57.199 was going to get the tattoo because we needed a 1268 01:02:57.239 --> 01:02:59.679 couple hours just to fill these guys out. So I said, Tony, 1269 01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:01.760 I'll pay for it, get whatever you want. It was 1270 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:06.440 a terrible tattoo, however, or sitting it was. It was 1271 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:09.920 so bad. It was so bad. But about halfway through 1272 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:12.079 the tattoo, Sharky comes out with his colors, and of 1273 01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:14.239 course we're playing stupid because we can't act like we 1274 01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:17.679 know anything about club life. He goes, do you guys 1275 01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:19.639 know what these are? And he held up a set 1276 01:03:19.639 --> 01:03:22.440 of colors of the vagos and we're like, no, what's that? 1277 01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:24.199 He goes to the Bogos he goes, you never heard 1278 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:26.559 of us, going no, dude, we're from back, We're back East. 1279 01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:28.960 We know who you guys are. So he goes into 1280 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:31.480 this hole s field. He goes because we rode there 1281 01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:34.920 on motorcycles and he goes, uh, he goes, why don't 1282 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:36.599 you guys come around? It was this is how easy was. 1283 01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:38.639 He goes, why don't you guys come around. We're having 1284 01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.159 a meeting like three days from now. Now are in Adu. Shit, 1285 01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:46.719 And that's how easy that was getting invited in over there. 1286 01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:52.159 Then that case again, you know, with the whole backstopping 1287 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:55.960 issues you know, started to you know, at first it 1288 01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:58.119 was good because we were there and I think that 1289 01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:01.320 case went in total like eighteen months. But you know, 1290 01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:03.320 we were getting good. We were buying off of people, 1291 01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:05.800 you know who we bought off of, which you guys 1292 01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:08.239 will find funny, you know, Yeah, what's in it that 1293 01:04:08.239 --> 01:04:15.360 that show? Yeah, I bought off of the we bought 1294 01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:17.760 off of Joe Henderson. I used to go in that 1295 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:25.719 shop all the time because all the time and buy dope. Yeah, 1296 01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:27.599 so we said, because it was only like a two 1297 01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:29.800 blocks down from the a TF office. Flavored or not. 1298 01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:31.760 I mean, it's just the the shop. They make him 1299 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:34.159 look huge. It was this little box, but we used 1300 01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:36.480 to go in there, my dope all the time. We 1301 01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.280 put him in prison for a few years. But anyway, 1302 01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:46.280 long story short, So we're going around you know now, Yeah, 1303 01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:50.679 tramp Terry, who was the national president at the time, 1304 01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:53.519 he took a liking to the informant and eye. He 1305 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:56.239 took a real liking to us. And at the same time, 1306 01:04:56.280 --> 01:05:00.599 we were trying to get into uh uh Vegas, Darren 1307 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:03.199 because Lawski was trying to get into the Hollywood chapter. 1308 01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:07.800 So we were making our in roads. Now, the thing 1309 01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:10.480 is is that we would know him because we we 1310 01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:13.320 were getting a little bit more credibility on our end, 1311 01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:16.000 so we were going to help him move along. So 1312 01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:20.599 I think I can't. I don't know how long into 1313 01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:23.800 his investigation he was in, but he had an informant 1314 01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:27.559 got t bone on a motorcycle and got killed. But 1315 01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:31.559 Darren had given him his card from when he was 1316 01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:34.079 back in Milwaukee or it was long. It was a 1317 01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:37.840 long yeah, I think it was a Milwaukee card. But anyway, 1318 01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:42.440 so that kind of dies off and Darren's working through 1319 01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:44.400 his thing over there. We're working through our thing in 1320 01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:47.360 Las Vegas, and we're cut through. Foreman and I are 1321 01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:52.360 constantly traversing back and forth between Las Vegas and more 1322 01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:55.320 so than even the club is right, and we're getting 1323 01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:59.480 to know all these guys. Well, we come up and 1324 01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:01.039 we're gonna you know, now, they're going to allow us 1325 01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:06.079 the prospect, right. So, so there was some stuff that happened. 1326 01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:09.480 So they had this run up in Reno and the 1327 01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:12.719 Vogos were trying to make a statement up there, right, 1328 01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:14.039 So they were going to go at it with the 1329 01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:17.920 Hell's Angels. So again we go up there. They have 1330 01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:20.239 us towed all their guns up there. They informing an eye, 1331 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:22.519 so we bring all the guns up. So they have 1332 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.199 this master plan that they're going to go to this 1333 01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:27.280 Hell's Angels bar and I can't remember the name of 1334 01:06:27.320 --> 01:06:30.840 it to save my life. And what they're going to 1335 01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:32.960 do is they're going to wait for the Hell's Angels 1336 01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:35.920 to come up the Reno chapter and when they come 1337 01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:37.960 in there, what they're gonna do is they're going to 1338 01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:40.440 push him out the back and they're going to beat 1339 01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:44.199 the live and hell out. That's the plan. Well, we're 1340 01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:48.599 having this meeting as a club and there's me and Tony, 1341 01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:51.039 who aren't we're not even prospects at this point in time. 1342 01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:54.199 They hand him a bat, me a hammer, and two 1343 01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:57.519 other guys and they say get behind the bar, and 1344 01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:00.400 they go, well, we flush these dudes out. It's your 1345 01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:02.519 job to beat the hell out of them. Holy shit, 1346 01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:05.639 And of course I'm looking at Tony. We're just you know, 1347 01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:08.599 you can do nothing but laugh, right, we're chuckling. And 1348 01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:11.199 so we go stand back there and we're just praying 1349 01:07:11.199 --> 01:07:13.159 at God that something happens that we don't have to 1350 01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:16.079 do this because it's going to turn in we don't know. Yeah, 1351 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:18.960 So we're in We're out there for about a half 1352 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:21.880 hour and then I'll come a couple of vogos come 1353 01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:24.639 out and they say, hey, okay, everything's good. They've had 1354 01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:28.320 some negotiations and there we're good to go. We're like, okay, 1355 01:07:28.920 --> 01:07:32.719 so that broke that, which was awesome, right that, you know, 1356 01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:36.760 but the stress was was tremendous. And so we go 1357 01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:39.039 back and now they're going to have a they're going 1358 01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:41.559 to have a national meeting and it was happening in 1359 01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:45.880 Las Vegas. So this is where we're going to start prospecting. 1360 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:50.519 Me my informant and cause so we all start prospecting 1361 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:52.880 on the same day. But you get brought up like 1362 01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:54.960 so there was probably one hundred members there, one hundred 1363 01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:56.559 two hundred members. You come into I think we're at 1364 01:07:56.559 --> 01:08:00.079 the VFW hall. You go in there and they bring 1365 01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:03.000 you up on a stage and they start and they're like, 1366 01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:05.599 you know, are you willing to die for the club? 1367 01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:07.159 Are you willing to fight for you really to do 1368 01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:09.199 all this stuff? Right? You're like, yeah, you know, yeah, 1369 01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:11.559 I'll do whatever I got to do. Then they asked, 1370 01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:14.199 is there anybody in here who's got anything negative to 1371 01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:16.840 say about these brothers or why they shouldn't get into 1372 01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:19.439 the club. And because we did what we did up 1373 01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:22.640 in Reno, which wasn't anything but just stand there and tear, 1374 01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.960 they were all these brothers are down, they stood up 1375 01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:28.800 for the club and blah blah blah blah blah, you 1376 01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:31.319 know all this mess and uh so we ended up 1377 01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:35.680 getting our prospect Rockers, right. So we were prospecting for 1378 01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:43.119 about three months now. There were times like like stupid stuff. Yeah, 1379 01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:45.479 you know, one thing to bother guys like us, are 1380 01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:47.399 are some of these cop clubs out there that want 1381 01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:51.119 to affiliate with clubs, and then and then and then 1382 01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:53.159 a lot of the military clubs because we recruit out 1383 01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:55.399 of the military hard, right. We were the thing. And 1384 01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:58.279 we were at a we were an event in uh 1385 01:08:58.600 --> 01:09:04.039 when we were with Vogos where I can't remember if 1386 01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:06.159 it was the Choir Boys or what cop club it was, 1387 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:10.760 but we were sitting there with some of these with 1388 01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:14.119 with some of them and a couple other clubs, and 1389 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.920 these guys were pointing out their own undercover guys that 1390 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:19.800 were in the crowd, like that guy over there that 1391 01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:22.520 we're not going You guys are pieces of shit, Yeah, 1392 01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:26.079 you know, And that's like. And then we were at 1393 01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:31.239 we were at some function in Las Vegas and this 1394 01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:34.840 guy Jack Roberts, he was an old school Las Vegas cop, 1395 01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:38.760 big irishman, hands the size of my head, and he 1396 01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:41.079 would talk about getting fights with the mafia dudes all 1397 01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:42.319 the time. They would go to the bars just to 1398 01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:45.880 get fights. He's just just a great guy, right, And 1399 01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:48.720 so he was the only guy that was like covering 1400 01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:51.439 me him. He and Randy Props was another agent in 1401 01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:53.399 the office. They're really the only guys that knew was 1402 01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:58.079 going on. So these guys contact Jack Robins from the 1403 01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:00.159 Henderson Police Department, and they say, hey, we're gonn go 1404 01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:02.319 out there and cover this event. And Jack goes, well, hey, dude, 1405 01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:04.520 if you're going, go overt, because if you go overt, 1406 01:10:04.600 --> 01:10:07.039 they won't mess with you. You know what I mean. They 1407 01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:11.079 you're taking pictures. They expect that these two dudes show up. Man, 1408 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:14.359 they're taking pictures. They're trying to dress like they're they're blended. 1409 01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:16.840 And of course, of course Tony and I are the prospects, 1410 01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:19.640 right and CJ, who is our president, comes over and 1411 01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:21.600 he goes, hey, go find out who those guys are. 1412 01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:25.760 And I'm looking and I know because I know their pops, 1413 01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:28.760 because they couldn't get anything else. And Jack said there 1414 01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:30.840 might be two guys out there floating around. I'm going 1415 01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:32.800 and I'm looking at Tony. So we walk over there 1416 01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:35.079 and okay, we got to do we gotta do. I'm like, 1417 01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:39.039 you know, we had guns. I had gone Tony, they 1418 01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:40.800 haven't gun. I had gun. And I walk over there 1419 01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:42.279 and I'm like, hey, man, give me who are you 1420 01:10:42.399 --> 01:10:44.279 And they're like, oh no, man, I said, give me 1421 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:46.880 a driver's license. I'm like, fuck you guys, go give 1422 01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:50.920 me a driver's license. So they're looking, I go, you 1423 01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:53.000 better give me a driver's license. It'd be a problem. 1424 01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:56.920 So they hand us over their driver's license right now. 1425 01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:01.840 There they weren't they weren't there true name licenses, right, 1426 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:04.920 And then I was told we had to take their cameras. 1427 01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:07.680 So we took their cameras and we smashed them right. 1428 01:11:07.920 --> 01:11:10.520 And at this point, now the club has come in 1429 01:11:10.520 --> 01:11:13.920 and circled them, and it's like, well, it's out of 1430 01:11:13.920 --> 01:11:15.479 our hands. I go, if they're gonna beat them, they're 1431 01:11:15.479 --> 01:11:18.319 gonna beat them right now. So at this point, CJ 1432 01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:21.319 is the voice and he's telling them get the fuck 1433 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:23.399 out of here, blah blah blah blah blah blah. So 1434 01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:26.159 they start walking back to their car, and of course 1435 01:11:27.640 --> 01:11:30.640 CJ tells Tony and I again follow them back to 1436 01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:33.399 their car and get their license plate. Now Jack is 1437 01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:37.720 off on the side watching this, and I'm assuming these 1438 01:11:37.720 --> 01:11:41.199 guys got guns. They have no idea who we are. Yeah, 1439 01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:44.119 so we're kind of like followed them, half stepping, waiting 1440 01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:46.159 for them, and Jack is watching because he didn't know 1441 01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:47.880 what they're gonna do either. They're gonna pull their guns 1442 01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:50.000 and start shooting, right. So this is the slow walk 1443 01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:52.680 of about twenty five yards in his car. Well, we 1444 01:11:52.760 --> 01:11:54.640 end up getting to the car and they get in, 1445 01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:57.479 we get the license plate stuff. You noticed dumb sons 1446 01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:02.600 of bitches drove their personal car, you know. I mean 1447 01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:06.680 it doesn't sound like you know, they are not heroics 1448 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:08.800 and people are like, oh, you know, like the movies. 1449 01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:12.039 It's things like that though, when it's happening and you're 1450 01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:14.279 sitting there and you don't know if you're gonna get 1451 01:12:14.279 --> 01:12:17.279 shot by you know, other police officers because of who 1452 01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:19.880 they believe you are, and you're getting ordered to do things. 1453 01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:22.760 There's a lot of times in these in these investigations, 1454 01:12:23.079 --> 01:12:26.279 your chapter p or whoever president or whoever they tell 1455 01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:29.159 you to do things, you don't say, well, why right, 1456 01:12:29.479 --> 01:12:32.640 do it? You know. It's so there's there was a 1457 01:12:32.680 --> 01:12:34.159 lot of that. I mean when we were with the 1458 01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:37.960 Vogos again. So this was our final mud check before 1459 01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:40.680 we were going to get patched in. It is about 1460 01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:42.600 two thirty in the morning. We were all out. We 1461 01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:47.600 go over to this one guy's house dog and we're 1462 01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:50.039 all it's like three, they're all fucked up, you know, 1463 01:12:50.479 --> 01:12:54.359 and they go, hey, we got to go collect. They go, 1464 01:12:54.439 --> 01:12:58.880 you guys want to go, Well, that's not like that's 1465 01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:01.159 you're going to go. I'll not say no. So we're like, 1466 01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:03.159 they go, yeah, we're going. They go where we're going? 1467 01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:04.720 They go, don't you worry where we're going? They go, 1468 01:13:04.760 --> 01:13:06.680 We're going to take your car. We're going to take 1469 01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:10.640 two trucks. Take off anything that says you know, uh, 1470 01:13:10.840 --> 01:13:14.600 you know that relates to the club, whatever, go outside, mask, 1471 01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:17.880 you know, put something over your license plate. And I'm 1472 01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:19.920 looking at Tony. I go, this is I go, either 1473 01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:21.840 they're playing with us or this is gonna be bad. 1474 01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:25.880 So we go do what we gonna do. And then 1475 01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:29.359 this one dude Tree, who is an absolute asshole. He's 1476 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:30.840 a guy that rode around with a bike. He had 1477 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:35.840 a bungee thing over to hold his tanks on. Bad anyway. 1478 01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:38.840 So we get in our car. I'm driving, Tony's in 1479 01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:40.479 the front. He gets in the back. He goes, hey, 1480 01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:42.800 you guys got any guns on you. I'm like, no, 1481 01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:45.520 which I did? I go, no, we have any guns? 1482 01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:47.479 He goes, we all I got is thirty eight. He goes, 1483 01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:49.640 you don't get anything bigger. I go, nope, this is no. 1484 01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:52.920 I didn't bring anything out tonight. So we driving in 1485 01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:55.279 North Las Vegas and we go into this trailer park. 1486 01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:58.119 There's probably twenty trailers in here right now. Mine is 1487 01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:02.399 about three o'clock in the morning. We pull in there 1488 01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:06.880 three my car and two trucks and they go up 1489 01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:09.600 to the door. They don't knock, they just kick it in. 1490 01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:13.359 Now it's a single wide trailer and there's like, I 1491 01:14:13.399 --> 01:14:16.199 think eight or nine of us. And as soon as 1492 01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:18.199 we get with Tony and I were trying to get 1493 01:14:18.199 --> 01:14:22.000 in the door. Once we get in the door, before 1494 01:14:22.039 --> 01:14:23.680 we could even get in the door, they got this 1495 01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:27.760 dude and they are plack, just beaten living shot. Well 1496 01:14:27.760 --> 01:14:30.720 apparently he didn't pay them for some meth and some 1497 01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:33.159 other things and he owed them, so they're beating a 1498 01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:35.319 living hell out of them. And they're like, and they 1499 01:14:35.399 --> 01:14:37.479 tell us they go pull the phones out of the wall. 1500 01:14:37.640 --> 01:14:39.479 So we pull the cords out of the wall, and 1501 01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:41.800 they go go check the rest of the house. So 1502 01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:44.520 of course what do we find. You find a four 1503 01:14:44.520 --> 01:14:46.600 and a five year old and a fifteen year old 1504 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:49.560 or so girl, And we pull them out. And all 1505 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:51.039 I told Tony is I said, look, I don't give 1506 01:14:51.039 --> 01:14:52.920 a shit what happens in here. I go, they don't 1507 01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:55.560 get near the kids. Yeah fuck it at that point, right, 1508 01:14:56.199 --> 01:14:58.199 And they never made anybody, but we sat and watched. 1509 01:14:58.399 --> 01:15:00.079 The wife got up, her girlfriend out of them what 1510 01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:01.880 she was. She got up and got out off the 1511 01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:04.640 couch to try to intervene because they're beating the snuff. 1512 01:15:04.840 --> 01:15:08.520 They knocked her over the couch. Now, this went on 1513 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:11.359 because they started hauling out all his motorcycle parts. They 1514 01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:13.840 loaded his bike into the truck. This went on for 1515 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:18.000 about an hour. Do you think anybody called the police? 1516 01:15:18.279 --> 01:15:21.960 Not one peep, not one peep. That was one of 1517 01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:24.239 the best charges we had because we got him for kidnapping. 1518 01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:27.720 Home invasion. I mean, so, you know how I was 1519 01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:31.159 talking about cover teams. I had one guy that was 1520 01:15:31.159 --> 01:15:33.880 was my cover guy, Randy, And you know, we were 1521 01:15:33.880 --> 01:15:36.039 out just social. If you're doing operation, you got you know, 1522 01:15:36.039 --> 01:15:37.640 actually doing a buy, you got to get people, the 1523 01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:40.399 right people out there. Well, we were just out socially. 1524 01:15:40.800 --> 01:15:43.840 So after this is over, I'm looking at Tony, I'm going, 1525 01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:46.960 how the hell am I going to explain this one? 1526 01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:51.640 Because we basically did a home invasion. You know. Of course, 1527 01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:53.239 the one thing I want to tell you guys is 1528 01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:56.640 one of the things is before you go into these cases, 1529 01:15:56.880 --> 01:16:00.239 you have meetings with the US Attorney's office, you know, 1530 01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:03.760 the prosecutor's office, and you talk about what you can 1531 01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:08.279 and cannot do. Okay, you know, fighting, don't throw the 1532 01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.800 first punch, don't throw the last kick. Drugs, can't do drugs. 1533 01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:14.079 We've had guys that were able to carry user amount 1534 01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:16.079 of drugs because that's the role they played, so they 1535 01:16:16.079 --> 01:16:18.720 could actually you know, give little bumps if they needed to, 1536 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:23.640 you know. Uh. But it was you know, it wasn't 1537 01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:26.760 anything you know, really crazy that you could do, right, right, So, 1538 01:16:27.319 --> 01:16:29.279 but you had those talks, you know, when we talked 1539 01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:34.399 about you know, the language, whether it be swearing or 1540 01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:37.640 you know, racial comments. You know, you don't want to 1541 01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:40.199 sound worse than the criminals. Right, that's a problem because 1542 01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:43.000 you know you've got to go testify. So that was 1543 01:16:43.039 --> 01:16:45.720 all tempered, and that was all a proof. Well, we 1544 01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:48.560 hadn't talked about doing a home evasion yet. Now, mind you, 1545 01:16:49.880 --> 01:16:54.560 up until this point, Steve Martin had done the Warlocks case. 1546 01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:58.319 I did the brother's case, and then I rolled right 1547 01:16:58.319 --> 01:17:01.159 into this one. I didn't even take a which became 1548 01:17:01.239 --> 01:17:04.079 an issue because after six months into the case, I 1549 01:17:04.119 --> 01:17:06.439 got called on the carpet, meaning up the San Francisco 1550 01:17:06.520 --> 01:17:09.079 our division was, and they were rail on me, going, 1551 01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:10.880 you were supposed to take a year off. I go, 1552 01:17:10.920 --> 01:17:12.439 I never got notified. I was supposed to take a 1553 01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:14.840 year off. They go, you didn't get notified. I go, no, 1554 01:17:14.920 --> 01:17:16.960 I go, tell me where that Let me tell me 1555 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:19.560 where that memo is? I go, I never got told 1556 01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:24.199 I was taking a year off. And Gonzalez, who was 1557 01:17:24.239 --> 01:17:30.119 the or Rodriguez who was the who was the deputy 1558 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:32.640 assistant over that thing. He called. He goes, how far 1559 01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.720 are you in? I go him six seven months in? 1560 01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:37.520 He goes, all right, he goes, fuck it, he goes, 1561 01:17:37.640 --> 01:17:39.960 just just keep going. Then, you know what I mean. 1562 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:42.319 So I didn't really have them any break between those 1563 01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:47.560 two cases were boom boom. So you know, so before 1564 01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.760 I called my boss, who was a putts, I called 1565 01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:52.880 the US Attorney's Office and laid it out to them, 1566 01:17:53.279 --> 01:17:56.479 because generally speaking, if the US Attorney's Office is okay 1567 01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.359 with it, ATFN on a box. So I called them 1568 01:17:59.359 --> 01:18:02.119 and explained with and go, well, other than somebody getting 1569 01:18:02.119 --> 01:18:07.199 beat up and whatnotuh, anything else happened to go just 1570 01:18:07.239 --> 01:18:10.399 send somebody out there to take a report that something 1571 01:18:10.560 --> 01:18:12.720 was done to go get the statement that they ended 1572 01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:15.399 up using against anyway, So when I went back and 1573 01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:16.920 I told my boss, I go, hey, I already talked 1574 01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:19.199 to the US attorneys or good with it. He was like, okay, 1575 01:18:19.319 --> 01:18:22.079 keep going. Then, no issues, you know, because it was 1576 01:18:22.119 --> 01:18:26.239 a different whole, different reporting mechanism then. But you know, 1577 01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:28.399 and then that case was going on and we were 1578 01:18:28.399 --> 01:18:31.920 going good. And it's after the reno where we had 1579 01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:34.279 gotten into that and we got voted in as prospect, 1580 01:18:34.319 --> 01:18:36.880 and we've been running back and forth for you know, 1581 01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:41.239 two three months, and prospect period for them back then 1582 01:18:41.359 --> 01:18:43.119 was about three months. And they come up with they're 1583 01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:46.119 going to have an officer's run down to Mexico. And 1584 01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:48.039 it's like, so I call our at a shay up 1585 01:18:48.039 --> 01:18:50.720 in Mexico and I go, hey, we gotta we gotta 1586 01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:53.199 come to which I didn't know shit. I go, We're 1587 01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:55.600 gonna come to Mexico. I goes it, okay, to bring 1588 01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:58.199 our guns. He goes, yeah, you can bring your guns. 1589 01:18:58.359 --> 01:19:00.319 He goes, you know, you just got to check them 1590 01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:03.119 in at the MC. I go, MBC, I go, I go, 1591 01:19:03.439 --> 01:19:05.880 I go, I go. We're coming across with the club. 1592 01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:09.079 He goes, you can't come into Mexico with any guns. 1593 01:19:09.359 --> 01:19:12.000 He goes, And we're like, what's the big deal. He goes, 1594 01:19:12.159 --> 01:19:15.000 because the reporting requirements here are if you come in 1595 01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:17.760 to Mexico as a law enforcement officer, he goes, we 1596 01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:20.439 have to tell the federals to prosecute everybody that you're 1597 01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:22.239 gonna come in, because you might as well come across 1598 01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:25.479 the border and shoot yourself in a head. We're like, okay, well, 1599 01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:28.680 how the hell do we get around this? So we 1600 01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:31.840 had to start working our magic. So we put records 1601 01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.680 in texts that said that we had been caught smuggling 1602 01:19:34.760 --> 01:19:37.119 and doing some other stuff that we told the club, 1603 01:19:37.159 --> 01:19:38.880 if we go down to the border and we're gonna 1604 01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:41.359 have trouble getting back, you know we'll get back, we're 1605 01:19:41.359 --> 01:19:45.199 probably gonna get arrested. So we had worked that out 1606 01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:50.520 and then and then it was uh so, right at 1607 01:19:50.520 --> 01:19:53.279 the last minute, they changed it and they did the 1608 01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:59.840 officers meeting in uh in uh California. They told in formula. 1609 01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:03.920 They go, They're like, you guys don't have to go 1610 01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:06.239 because they changed the last minute. They go, they have 1611 01:20:06.359 --> 01:20:10.159 enough prospects out there. They go, and they said, next 1612 01:20:10.199 --> 01:20:11.960 week you guys will probably get you. Guys will get 1613 01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:13.760 your patches. We'll just give them to your hair. So 1614 01:20:13.960 --> 01:20:19.600 like right on, Well, they go down to this officers 1615 01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:22.800 meeting and Darren Kaselowski goes there and he gets his patch. 1616 01:20:23.199 --> 01:20:26.399 So he's a patch member. Okay, I think he held 1617 01:20:26.439 --> 01:20:29.119 the patch the shortest of anybody in the history of ATF. 1618 01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:35.640 Because what happened was his informants old lady who got killed. 1619 01:20:35.840 --> 01:20:38.640 She got pissed because ATF wasn't doing anything. First she 1620 01:20:38.680 --> 01:20:41.439 thought she should get some money or something, so she 1621 01:20:41.520 --> 01:20:44.800 went to the club with his card. Now the fatal 1622 01:20:44.920 --> 01:20:48.319 the fatal air. Of course, we're young again. We're not thinking, 1623 01:20:48.960 --> 01:20:52.399 you know, cause his nickname that he used for the 1624 01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:57.640 club was Cause. Okay, I you know, we we still 1625 01:20:57.680 --> 01:21:01.239 laugh about this till till this day. But anyway, that's 1626 01:21:01.239 --> 01:21:03.159 what he did. Well, they got she gave him the 1627 01:21:03.199 --> 01:21:06.319 business card. They start calling around. If I get this wrong, 1628 01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:08.840 he'll correct me when I see him. They start calling 1629 01:21:08.840 --> 01:21:11.159 around and they found him at the Long Beach office. 1630 01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:15.560 So they found Derek Kaselowski, a TF agent, at the 1631 01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:18.680 Long Beach office. So, you know, Darren, like all of us, 1632 01:21:18.720 --> 01:21:20.359 you try to scoot out, you go home, and he 1633 01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:22.760 had a house with a garage and what on. So 1634 01:21:22.800 --> 01:21:25.920 he comes back to his house. He goes in his 1635 01:21:25.960 --> 01:21:30.079 house and he gets knock on the door. Junkie D, 1636 01:21:30.119 --> 01:21:33.880 who was an international enforcer for the club, Sergeant Arms. 1637 01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:37.359 He and some other members go in his house and say, 1638 01:21:37.399 --> 01:21:39.720 where're you been? He goes, what do you mean? Wh're've been? 1639 01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:41.159 I've been right here. They know you haven't because they 1640 01:21:41.159 --> 01:21:43.399 were They had set up surveillance on him, and they go, 1641 01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:46.039 what are you driving? He goes, I drove. I can't 1642 01:21:46.039 --> 01:21:47.439 remember what he said he was driving. They go, no, 1643 01:21:47.479 --> 01:21:49.760 you weren't, because they'd broken his garage and saw what 1644 01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:52.239 he was, what he was, what he had in there. 1645 01:21:52.560 --> 01:21:54.439 So because he used to park a car down around 1646 01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:56.760 the corner, you know, different cars so he can come 1647 01:21:56.800 --> 01:22:01.960 and go, those tactics have all changed. So so they 1648 01:22:02.039 --> 01:22:06.000 took his patch, right, they didn't. They didn't do anything 1649 01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:08.079 to him because they're not that stupid. If they're suspecting 1650 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:09.720 he's an ATF agent, they're not going to do anything 1651 01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:13.520 to him. So he calls me and he tells you 1652 01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:16.319 what's going on? And I'm like, holy shit. You know. 1653 01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:18.680 The concern is are you okay, And the second is, 1654 01:22:18.680 --> 01:22:21.239 how the hell are we going to circumvent ATF on 1655 01:22:21.319 --> 01:22:23.600 this one? You know what I mean? Because he's got 1656 01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:28.079 a report back, and uh, it wasn't like an hour later. 1657 01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:30.199 I get this call and at the R undercover house 1658 01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:36.159 in Las Vegas and it's Chunky Ed and Tramp who's 1659 01:22:36.199 --> 01:22:40.039 the international president, and they're on the phone, and of 1660 01:22:40.079 --> 01:22:42.520 course they obviously don't think I know anything about this. 1661 01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:44.680 So I'm on the phone and I go, Hey, what 1662 01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:47.000 Cause Cherry liked us, so he'd call us, and I go, 1663 01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:49.960 what's going on? He said, we got a problem with 1664 01:22:50.039 --> 01:22:54.720 your buddy. I go, which one? He goes, Cause, I go, 1665 01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.800 what's the problem. Now, we had built a relationship with Cause, 1666 01:22:58.840 --> 01:23:01.079 saying that we were doing business back in the Midwest 1667 01:23:01.279 --> 01:23:04.319 prior to coming out here. So here's what he said. 1668 01:23:04.359 --> 01:23:06.840 He goes. He goes, I think Cause followed you out 1669 01:23:06.840 --> 01:23:08.800 here to continue his case on and when he saw 1670 01:23:08.800 --> 01:23:10.720 you got in the club, he started getting around the 1671 01:23:10.720 --> 01:23:13.000 club too. If you're to come and get after us, 1672 01:23:13.399 --> 01:23:16.640 he goes, that's a big problem. And I'm like, you know, 1673 01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:21.439 I'm like pretending, I'm going, Oh fuck, I go, So 1674 01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:23.239 I go, well, what do you guys get how do 1675 01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:24.640 you propose? What are you going to do? He goes, 1676 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:27.079 And then at this point Tramp goes, we're going to 1677 01:23:27.159 --> 01:23:30.079 kill him junk. Ye goes, I'm gonna get off the 1678 01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:32.439 phone now. So he gets off the phone. So it's 1679 01:23:32.479 --> 01:23:34.239 just me and Terry on the phone now that I 1680 01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:37.640 had this whole recording, and he's telling me. He goes, 1681 01:23:37.640 --> 01:23:39.920 He goes, we got to do something, he goes. He goes, 1682 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:41.920 I don't expect that you'll do it, because you'll be 1683 01:23:41.920 --> 01:23:43.279 the first one they look at. He goes, But we 1684 01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:46.920 got to do something. So they were just talking about 1685 01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:49.319 how they were, you know, because because of course Cose 1686 01:23:49.680 --> 01:23:52.079 took all his stuff up and out it, but they 1687 01:23:52.079 --> 01:23:55.119 had a starting place to look for him at his office, right. 1688 01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:59.600 So so at this point we're like, oh man, I 1689 01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:01.720 don't know hit. We're gonna have to take a break. 1690 01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:03.600 So of course I get off the phone with him. 1691 01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:06.079 I got to make a call to my office and 1692 01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:09.279 tell him what's going on. And I ended up calling 1693 01:24:09.319 --> 01:24:12.279 my sack. I didn't even talk to my boss really 1694 01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:15.199 because he was a goof. And they're like, well, you 1695 01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:16.720 guys got to shut it down. I go I think 1696 01:24:16.760 --> 01:24:19.800 we're good, and of course, you know, being optimistic, I go, 1697 01:24:20.119 --> 01:24:22.359 I think we could survive it. We should be able 1698 01:24:22.359 --> 01:24:25.079 to stay. We can get rid of cause, but we could. 1699 01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:26.840 We shouldn't be able to stay. They're like, you ain't 1700 01:24:26.920 --> 01:24:29.600 fucking staying in that investigation. So we had to go 1701 01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:34.439 meet a couple guys there were our sponsors, and we 1702 01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:37.439 ended up meeting them and they hadn't even known what 1703 01:24:37.520 --> 01:24:39.239 our own my own chapter didn't even know what was 1704 01:24:39.279 --> 01:24:41.960 going on at the time, and Tony and I ended 1705 01:24:42.039 --> 01:24:43.880 up turning our cuts into them and said, hey, we 1706 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:45.680 gotta we got to bolt out of here for a 1707 01:24:45.720 --> 01:24:47.680 couple of months till we see what's going on, you 1708 01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:49.920 know what I mean. And then what ended up happening 1709 01:24:49.960 --> 01:24:53.560 because in these investigations you always have running affidavits from 1710 01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:56.399 day one. We learned the hard way, so everything is 1711 01:24:56.439 --> 01:24:59.720 going as everything happens. The affidavid build, they build, the 1712 01:24:59.800 --> 01:25:03.720 charge just build, so if something like this happens, we 1713 01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:05.960 can go right to the prosecutor with what we got 1714 01:25:06.520 --> 01:25:09.159 before grand jury, or even just get a warrants issued 1715 01:25:09.439 --> 01:25:11.760 and go ahead and take everybody down. So that's what 1716 01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:14.000 we did. We broke out of there and then it 1717 01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:18.479 was like the following week we ended up hitting Las Vegas, 1718 01:25:18.680 --> 01:25:20.880 a bunch of places in California, and there was another 1719 01:25:20.920 --> 01:25:23.119 investigation that was going on down in San Diego. I 1720 01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:25.600 think we ended up getting like sixty members out of 1721 01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:26.640 that or something like that. 1722 01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:29.640 But you guys are clean because they track all it 1723 01:25:29.680 --> 01:25:32.239 all back to Cause and you were just two guys 1724 01:25:32.279 --> 01:25:36.920 associated with him who they thought was being investigated by Cause. 1725 01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:39.279 Tras went to the wind. 1726 01:25:39.640 --> 01:25:42.359 Yeah, they weren't looking at us like we were anything bad. 1727 01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:44.800 But you know, we're stupid and naive to think that, oh, 1728 01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:46.960 we could stay in this investigation, we'll be clean. They 1729 01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:49.640 just think it's caused. You know, it comes to a 1730 01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:53.479 point where you're so investigating, invested in these investigations right right, 1731 01:25:54.439 --> 01:25:56.720 that sometimes you get tunnel vision and you lose sight. 1732 01:25:56.840 --> 01:26:00.399 But that's why we always had guys. There was a 1733 01:26:00.439 --> 01:26:03.079 peer support programming a tip, but it was guys that 1734 01:26:03.119 --> 01:26:06.800 had did these types of investigations. Because Steve Martin happened 1735 01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:11.000 to be a supervisor up up in uh San Francisco 1736 01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:12.800 at the time who had done those other things. So 1737 01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:14.880 obviously he came down and talked to me and smacked 1738 01:26:14.920 --> 01:26:16.520 me around a little bit and give me my common 1739 01:26:16.560 --> 01:26:20.239 sense back and said, Frank, you can't, you can't stay in. 1740 01:26:20.359 --> 01:26:22.720 You gotta go. And then I didn't even think I 1741 01:26:22.720 --> 01:26:25.880 had to move, but then my house, my tires got 1742 01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:28.600 slashed on my g car, and then there were a 1743 01:26:28.640 --> 01:26:30.600 couple of vagos who were hanging around a building, and 1744 01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:34.439 then of course ATF lost its mind on there. So 1745 01:26:35.239 --> 01:26:37.800 that's where it was. So what's gonna happen to me? Now? 1746 01:26:37.840 --> 01:26:41.079 So I'm talking to my wife of course. Okay, So 1747 01:26:41.079 --> 01:26:43.680 if you guys don't know me, I'm a big Beagle fan. 1748 01:26:43.720 --> 01:26:45.880 We've had beagles for thirty plus years. I got three 1749 01:26:45.920 --> 01:26:48.359 of them now. We had two then, and they're going, 1750 01:26:48.439 --> 01:26:50.600 you guys, you got to go out of your house 1751 01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:52.880 and stay in a hotel for until we can move you. 1752 01:26:53.279 --> 01:26:56.439 That lasted one night and we went back to the house. 1753 01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:59.600 I told my wife I'd rather take my chance with 1754 01:26:59.640 --> 01:27:02.239 the dog being at the house. I got guns. The 1755 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:04.760 thing is, odds are I'm not going to say they 1756 01:27:04.760 --> 01:27:07.279 wouldn't do anything because there are some looney tunes and whatnot, 1757 01:27:07.319 --> 01:27:10.600 but they know that if they really did something like 1758 01:27:10.640 --> 01:27:15.199 that and it would come back, the blowback would be tremendous, right. 1759 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.560 I mean, that doesn't help me or my wife. At 1760 01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:21.920 the time, we didn't have any kids. But so anyway, 1761 01:27:22.640 --> 01:27:29.439 so you know, I get so ATFB and ATF I 1762 01:27:29.479 --> 01:27:33.399 had no desire. Headquarters was the least place I wanted 1763 01:27:33.399 --> 01:27:35.520 to be. Now. At the time, John Cooper, who's a 1764 01:27:35.600 --> 01:27:39.439 very dear friend of mine, when our case was having problems, 1765 01:27:39.800 --> 01:27:43.000 he gets sent out from our Special Operations Division with 1766 01:27:43.039 --> 01:27:45.520 another guy, Pete McCarthy to talk to us about the issues. 1767 01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:48.079 And we rail into him and it's like, God, damn 1768 01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:51.039 you guys, you just sucked. And it wasn't even his 1769 01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:54.399 fault because he just got there. So when the case 1770 01:27:55.039 --> 01:27:59.479 busted up, they said, okay, pick places you want to go. 1771 01:27:59.640 --> 01:28:02.560 I said, okay, well I'd like to go to the 1772 01:28:02.560 --> 01:28:04.640 Midwest or to the South or whatever. And I picked 1773 01:28:04.640 --> 01:28:07.319 my four locations. They said, okay, and write up a 1774 01:28:07.439 --> 01:28:10.640 justification letter. So I did. They said, okay, you'll go 1775 01:28:10.720 --> 01:28:14.279 to one of those four places. The next morning, I 1776 01:28:14.319 --> 01:28:16.079 go to the office about six o'clock and there's a 1777 01:28:16.119 --> 01:28:19.760 teletype that I've been transferred to headquarters to go work 1778 01:28:19.840 --> 01:28:23.439 in our new undercover shop. I was not a happy camper, 1779 01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:26.840 not a happy camper at all. However, it's one of 1780 01:28:26.880 --> 01:28:30.399 the best things I ever did. Because Coop had worked undercover. 1781 01:28:30.960 --> 01:28:33.479 There was me, another guy, Craig Carrity great and another 1782 01:28:33.560 --> 01:28:36.560 undercover agent, al Phoenix. So they were bringing guys into 1783 01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:40.119 the branch who actually worked undercover and understood what was 1784 01:28:40.199 --> 01:28:43.720 needed to get this thing off the ground. So I 1785 01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:49.840 spent you know, two years up there learning about that 1786 01:28:49.880 --> 01:28:52.560 whole process and getting integrated with everybody else who was 1787 01:28:52.600 --> 01:28:55.760 doing it, whether it was you know, the you know, 1788 01:28:55.920 --> 01:28:59.479 every part of the government really right. And then and 1789 01:28:59.520 --> 01:29:02.119 then I was ready to go. Now, in the meantime, 1790 01:29:02.159 --> 01:29:06.479 my wife and I I was fine with the Beagles. 1791 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:09.560 My wife wanted kids, so we ended up rush out 1792 01:29:10.159 --> 01:29:12.399 and adopted a couple of kids too at the same time. 1793 01:29:12.479 --> 01:29:15.039 So I'm getting ready to push out, and I had 1794 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:17.840 a good relationship with a couple of deputy assistant directors 1795 01:29:17.880 --> 01:29:20.520 who had been my sacks. And I go, well, this 1796 01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:23.319 is where I want to go. And the one, Malcolm Brady, 1797 01:29:23.720 --> 01:29:27.840 really great guy. He goes, he goes, No, he goes, 1798 01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:29.279 You're going to be He goes, You're going to go 1799 01:29:29.319 --> 01:29:32.600 be the supervisor in Youngstown, in your hometown. I go 1800 01:29:33.319 --> 01:29:35.560 I really don't want to do that, Malcolm. He goes, well, 1801 01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:38.439 i'm going to tell you what's going to happen. You're 1802 01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:40.319 going to do it or I'm going to fuck you. 1803 01:29:41.039 --> 01:29:42.560 He goes, I'm going to put you somewhere you don't 1804 01:29:42.560 --> 01:29:44.800 want to be. And I go, well, that's not nice, Malcolm. 1805 01:29:45.479 --> 01:29:47.359 So I didn't even put in for the job. You 1806 01:29:47.399 --> 01:29:48.880 have to put in for the job. I didn't get it. 1807 01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:50.920 Put in for the job. I went for an interview. 1808 01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:56.279 I had my interview, and then after the Tate was 1809 01:29:56.479 --> 01:29:58.800 he was the sack of New Orleans, I had my 1810 01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:02.520 interview too. Miss He goes, Frank, congratulations, you're going to Youngstown. 1811 01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:07.479 God so, which was good. I went to Youngstown and 1812 01:30:07.960 --> 01:30:10.520 you know, uh, that got me to Youngstown and I 1813 01:30:10.600 --> 01:30:12.840 was there for five years. And then that's how we 1814 01:30:12.920 --> 01:30:14.520 rolled into the Arian Brotherhood case. 1815 01:30:15.079 --> 01:30:18.039 Yeah yeah, man, I mean that sounds like a pretty 1816 01:30:18.079 --> 01:30:20.479 crazy one. How did that start to come about? 1817 01:30:20.520 --> 01:30:28.159 For? On your end? So, there were Tom Doyle and 1818 01:30:28.279 --> 01:30:33.279 a couple guys up at uh East Lake Police Department 1819 01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:36.960 and in Lake County, the Hell's Angels been operating in 1820 01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:39.600 Cleveland and they had opened up a new chapter up 1821 01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:44.199 and up in the Lake East. They called it and 1822 01:30:44.439 --> 01:30:48.960 uh and there they'd always been involved in something, right, well, 1823 01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:51.439 they and and there were some Arian Brotherhood members that 1824 01:30:51.479 --> 01:30:53.800 they had been dealing with up there who were manufacturing 1825 01:30:53.800 --> 01:30:56.760 machine guns. Bro. You know when I talk about people having 1826 01:30:56.840 --> 01:31:00.279 no redeeming quality, this guy had no redeeming quality. Jay 1827 01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:07.079 Bloomquist just total whack job. So they say, hey, are 1828 01:31:07.119 --> 01:31:08.520 you So they called me and they said, hey, we 1829 01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:10.560 got like four or five informants would would be willing 1830 01:31:10.560 --> 01:31:13.439 to come up here and interview him and then we'll 1831 01:31:13.479 --> 01:31:15.520 go from there, you know, if there's something that you 1832 01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:18.920 guys think you want to do being atf right. So 1833 01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:21.880 we scheduled we go up an interview and we find 1834 01:31:21.920 --> 01:31:25.119 two guys, Now they didn't know each other. One was 1835 01:31:25.159 --> 01:31:28.039 going to be he was going to work on the 1836 01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:32.079 Cleveland chapter of the AHA, and we had a captain 1837 01:31:32.119 --> 01:31:35.600 and Arian Brotherhood who they had gotten out. He almost 1838 01:31:35.640 --> 01:31:38.399 be a guy to death in a bar, but he 1839 01:31:38.479 --> 01:31:41.399 wanted to cooperate, right, He was a captain in the 1840 01:31:41.439 --> 01:31:45.319 state of Ohio. So we went up and we taught. 1841 01:31:45.319 --> 01:31:47.520 Now I was a supervisor right now, at that point, 1842 01:31:47.560 --> 01:31:50.880 when you're a fourteen or a group supervisor. I raq whatever, 1843 01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:52.560 You're not supposed to work on a covery, you're supposed 1844 01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:56.359 to oversee the crap, right. Well, I had a really 1845 01:31:56.439 --> 01:31:59.399 good sack that I know, Chris Sadowski. You know, he 1846 01:31:59.479 --> 01:32:01.039 let me do a lot of things and a lot 1847 01:32:01.079 --> 01:32:03.279 of bosses were never allowed to do because he let 1848 01:32:03.359 --> 01:32:06.079 me go help out on Jay Dobbinson's case. He let 1849 01:32:06.159 --> 01:32:08.439 me help go help on a couple of the warlocks, 1850 01:32:08.520 --> 01:32:10.319 k all these cases that I was able to go 1851 01:32:10.359 --> 01:32:15.479 play with and which was nice. And uh so, so 1852 01:32:15.720 --> 01:32:19.079 we're going to start this investigation and we're gonna we're 1853 01:32:19.079 --> 01:32:21.000 gonna buy a machine Well, we're going to go meet 1854 01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:25.319 aj because he can make machine gun stands. He was manufacturing. 1855 01:32:26.279 --> 01:32:31.479 So we get it all together and we're going to 1856 01:32:31.520 --> 01:32:36.279 go meet at this bar in Cleveland, and uh so 1857 01:32:36.319 --> 01:32:40.000 we show up and I bring in another undercover from Virginia, 1858 01:32:40.439 --> 01:32:43.359 Jeff Gramman, and he's going to be the guy that 1859 01:32:43.439 --> 01:32:47.439 gets introduced. Well, you know, I'm dress like anything. So 1860 01:32:47.640 --> 01:32:51.520 we're talking, and so I'm introducing him to Jeff and 1861 01:32:51.560 --> 01:32:53.439 I go, he's going to go with you? And he goes, 1862 01:32:53.439 --> 01:32:55.439 that won't work. I go, what do you mean it 1863 01:32:55.439 --> 01:32:58.199 won't work? And this is where informants. This is. You know, 1864 01:32:58.479 --> 01:33:01.239 some people call him confident human sources. We just call 1865 01:33:01.319 --> 01:33:06.479 him in four minutes, you know. He goes, he won't 1866 01:33:06.520 --> 01:33:08.920 do I go why? He goes cause I described you. 1867 01:33:09.159 --> 01:33:12.399 I told him about you, And of course I'm looking 1868 01:33:12.439 --> 01:33:14.520 at him, and I go, his name was Fred? I go, Fred? 1869 01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:17.800 Would you tell him? He goes, well, I told him 1870 01:33:17.840 --> 01:33:20.680 your name was Junkyard. I got saddled with that for 1871 01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:24.119 amlost two and a half. I go, what the fuck Junkyard? 1872 01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:27.479 He goes, yeah, I go, what else did you tell him? Well, 1873 01:33:27.479 --> 01:33:30.399 that you did time with my dad in County, Okay, 1874 01:33:30.439 --> 01:33:33.319 so that's how we know each other. I okay, and 1875 01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:35.319 I go, and what else did you tell him? He 1876 01:33:35.359 --> 01:33:37.239 goes that you and my dad would go into bars 1877 01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:40.920 and you would wrestle bears for fun. I'm like, you're 1878 01:33:40.960 --> 01:33:46.159 a idiot, right. So so we're sitting there and so 1879 01:33:46.359 --> 01:33:48.800 I'm looking at Jeff. I go, where you're going? So 1880 01:33:48.840 --> 01:33:51.800 I have to call my boss. I called I didn't 1881 01:33:51.840 --> 01:33:53.399 call my I called my boss and I go, hey, 1882 01:33:53.920 --> 01:33:57.560 I go, here's the situation. I go, I got to 1883 01:33:57.560 --> 01:33:59.479 go to this meeting because if I don't go, it's 1884 01:33:59.479 --> 01:34:01.319 not going to go anywhere. He goes, all right, we'll 1885 01:34:01.399 --> 01:34:04.640 just go to the first meeting and back out. Well 1886 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:08.760 eighteen months later there was no backing out because AJ, 1887 01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:11.960 although he liked Jay, he loved me. He just took 1888 01:34:12.000 --> 01:34:13.760 a real liking to me. I got a phone call 1889 01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:16.960 from that guy seven o'clock every morning. I had to 1890 01:34:17.000 --> 01:34:19.159 be up and ready to record him because it was 1891 01:34:19.159 --> 01:34:22.720 like clockwork. He had a construction. It was called ab Construction, 1892 01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:27.800 very ingenious, and he he would employ on the books 1893 01:34:27.920 --> 01:34:30.960 all of the AB's that were getting out on parole. Now, 1894 01:34:31.000 --> 01:34:34.039 Tim Miracle, who is the adult parole officer for Ohio, 1895 01:34:34.239 --> 01:34:36.279 he had all these guys on probation and parole, so 1896 01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:38.640 he knew all of them and what they were about. Yeah. 1897 01:34:38.720 --> 01:34:43.880 So anyway, so we get into this negotiation with AJ 1898 01:34:44.079 --> 01:34:47.279 about machine guns. So he won't get the kits. I 1899 01:34:47.319 --> 01:34:49.359 had to get the kits. I give him the three 1900 01:34:49.399 --> 01:34:52.439 machine gun kits at first. He makes them in three days, 1901 01:34:52.439 --> 01:34:55.960 come back beautiful, powder coated, function, perfect. So I said, well, 1902 01:34:56.000 --> 01:34:57.680 let's see what he can do. So I said, I'm 1903 01:34:57.680 --> 01:35:00.279 going to order ten and of course US attorneys off sile. Well, 1904 01:35:00.279 --> 01:35:01.600 how do you know he's going to give them to you, 1905 01:35:01.640 --> 01:35:03.279 and he wants say, I go, cause these guys don't 1906 01:35:03.279 --> 01:35:07.159 operate like that. I go, it's a bond. If they 1907 01:35:07.159 --> 01:35:09.720 tell you they're going to do something, they're gonna do it. Right. 1908 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:13.239 So so we go and I get him ten kits 1909 01:35:13.279 --> 01:35:15.680 and about a week later he brings them to me, right, 1910 01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:19.760 and he brings me nine. And then he says, and 1911 01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:22.039 then he goes, well, let's let's go back to my office. 1912 01:35:22.159 --> 01:35:23.439 He goes, I gotta, I want to talk to you 1913 01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:25.720 guys about up anyway. So I go, where's the tenth? 1914 01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:27.439 But he goes, I'll show you. So we go back 1915 01:35:27.840 --> 01:35:29.239 and he goes in the back room and he pulls 1916 01:35:29.239 --> 01:35:31.800 out this stand that he had powder coated pink and 1917 01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:34.640 he put these little powderpuff girls all over it as 1918 01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:36.920 a joke. He goes. He goes, man, he goes, I 1919 01:35:36.960 --> 01:35:38.439 was just joking around. If he goes, if you want, 1920 01:35:38.479 --> 01:35:41.039 i'll powder coated black, I go, no, no, I go, 1921 01:35:41.840 --> 01:35:44.119 I'll take that one. That's kind of cool, because that's 1922 01:35:44.159 --> 01:35:45.960 great Jerry at Peal, I mean, you know what I mean, 1923 01:35:45.960 --> 01:35:47.720 Look at his idiot. He doesn't even carr. He's making 1924 01:35:47.720 --> 01:35:50.079 guns that look, there are pink with Powderpuff Girls on him. 1925 01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:53.640 That's what his disregard. Way. J had ties into cops 1926 01:35:53.680 --> 01:35:57.000 who were you know, who were running information for him 1927 01:35:57.079 --> 01:35:59.560 that were selling them body armor. I mean, his dude, 1928 01:35:59.600 --> 01:36:03.319 he was a captain and Arion brother two criminal, pure criminal, 1929 01:36:03.479 --> 01:36:06.199 a lot of identity, theft, Robert, you name it. He 1930 01:36:06.279 --> 01:36:09.520 was into it. You know, he was married to a nurse, trapped. 1931 01:36:10.079 --> 01:36:12.520 He had a kid who you know, as we got 1932 01:36:12.520 --> 01:36:14.720 around on the kid eight Cheetos and coke, that's all 1933 01:36:14.760 --> 01:36:18.239 he ate. And he named him Dietrich Adolph blue Quist. 1934 01:36:18.840 --> 01:36:24.840 Real treat right. Yeah, So so this starts to go. Well, 1935 01:36:24.880 --> 01:36:27.119 while we're in there, you know, we go up and 1936 01:36:27.159 --> 01:36:30.199 we're buying some dope off him. So he pulls in. 1937 01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:35.560 He goes, hey, man, you guys ride motorcycles. And at 1938 01:36:35.560 --> 01:36:38.680 this point I'm like, ah shit, I go you know, 1939 01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:41.439 the ears go and I go, yeah, we ride motorcycles. 1940 01:36:41.479 --> 01:36:42.920 Why what are you think? And he goes, well, listen, 1941 01:36:43.359 --> 01:36:46.119 Darian Brotherhood has been trying to develop a club nationally 1942 01:36:46.199 --> 01:36:48.720 for years. He goes, and he goes, and we got 1943 01:36:48.800 --> 01:36:51.199 enough guys out right now that we're poised to do this. 1944 01:36:51.720 --> 01:36:53.399 I go, no shit, He goes, We're going to start 1945 01:36:53.399 --> 01:36:55.399 it here in Ohio. I go, so, what do you 1946 01:36:55.399 --> 01:36:57.279 need from me? He goes, you got five guys? He goes, 1947 01:36:57.319 --> 01:37:00.199 I got five guys. I can get five guys. I go, 1948 01:37:00.199 --> 01:37:02.720 I got five guys. I know, and I'm committing before 1949 01:37:02.760 --> 01:37:05.079 I can even do anything. But we're going to ride motorcycles. 1950 01:37:05.119 --> 01:37:08.039 So hey, and I said, well, what's what's the objective 1951 01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:10.920 here at AJ you know what are we doing? He goes, well, 1952 01:37:10.960 --> 01:37:13.199 the objective is for us to kill the Hell's Angels 1953 01:37:13.199 --> 01:37:16.800 and take over or shile. I go, that's a great plan. 1954 01:37:17.520 --> 01:37:20.680 So you know we break. I mean, it's going. I 1955 01:37:20.680 --> 01:37:23.800 mean it's perfect because you know, see the thing is 1956 01:37:23.840 --> 01:37:27.000 people don't know about ATF, or really don't understand about 1957 01:37:27.039 --> 01:37:30.520 ATF is a lot of law enforcem maidencies. When you 1958 01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:33.840 talk about there's going to be guns there and these 1959 01:37:33.880 --> 01:37:36.640 guys are have a real potential for violence, a lot 1960 01:37:36.680 --> 01:37:41.520 of agencies back off of that ATF. The more guns, 1961 01:37:41.760 --> 01:37:45.000 the more violent criminal you are. That's our wheelhouse. We 1962 01:37:45.079 --> 01:37:47.319 want you to have guns there. We want you to 1963 01:37:47.319 --> 01:37:50.079 be violent because that gives us our whole crux of 1964 01:37:50.119 --> 01:37:51.720 being there. Because we used to get in these arguments 1965 01:37:51.720 --> 01:37:54.640 with ATF about well, you're buying all kind of dope. 1966 01:37:54.720 --> 01:37:56.880 We don't see a lot of guns, dudes, they're carrying them. 1967 01:37:57.039 --> 01:37:59.159 Most crooks won't get off the gun that they're using 1968 01:37:59.159 --> 01:38:01.880 to defend themselves. You know, they got smart, they learned, 1969 01:38:02.199 --> 01:38:05.760 you know. So anyway, so I go back and I 1970 01:38:05.800 --> 01:38:08.039 talked to my sack, Chris, and I say, here's what's 1971 01:38:08.079 --> 01:38:10.720 going on. I go and I'm gonna have to be 1972 01:38:10.800 --> 01:38:13.199 in it because he's expected me, because they're going to 1973 01:38:13.279 --> 01:38:15.399 run this like an A B council. You know, we're 1974 01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:19.159 gonna have members and whatnot. So it was like, man, 1975 01:38:19.199 --> 01:38:24.199 I got five guys and my my very very dear friend, 1976 01:38:24.199 --> 01:38:26.880 Freddie Rains was the only state and local guy who 1977 01:38:26.920 --> 01:38:28.279 I just said, Fred, you want to work someone to 1978 01:38:28.319 --> 01:38:30.399 cover with us? And he's like he had no idea 1979 01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:34.359 what he was getting into none. So but that guy 1980 01:38:34.399 --> 01:38:38.239 could buy dope off a rock, and you know, and 1981 01:38:38.359 --> 01:38:41.039 uh so we started down this road, right, we started 1982 01:38:41.039 --> 01:38:44.239 getting to know each other. So we had like, ah, 1983 01:38:45.000 --> 01:38:47.239 on Saint Patrick's Day, we're going to bring our five 1984 01:38:47.279 --> 01:38:48.880 guys and they're going to bring their five guys to 1985 01:38:48.920 --> 01:38:52.520 a bar. So we bring our five guys in and 1986 01:38:52.560 --> 01:38:54.520 we're talking to their five guys and we have no 1987 01:38:54.560 --> 01:38:57.359 idea who these guys are. They introduce us to themselves, 1988 01:38:57.359 --> 01:38:59.760 and we spend a good amount of time there and 1989 01:39:00.039 --> 01:39:03.079 we leave. So we go get the brief by Tim 1990 01:39:03.119 --> 01:39:05.439 Miracle in the in the task force guys, because we 1991 01:39:05.439 --> 01:39:08.960 had formed a task force up there, and uh, Tim goes, 1992 01:39:09.000 --> 01:39:12.319 do you guys know who you met with? I go, uh, 1993 01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:16.560 you know one guy named David, another guy JB. They go. 1994 01:39:16.760 --> 01:39:21.000 He goes, Dude, David is the head of the AB 1995 01:39:21.239 --> 01:39:23.479 for the state of wohow. He brought it back from Phoenix. 1996 01:39:23.520 --> 01:39:25.520 He goes, he just got out like six months ago 1997 01:39:25.600 --> 01:39:28.119 for six counts of attempted murder and he killed a 1998 01:39:28.119 --> 01:39:30.000 guy in jail and stabbed the guy and shot a guy, 1999 01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:33.479 but they always kept running his stuff concurrent. He's dead now. 2000 01:39:33.520 --> 01:39:36.199 He got his head about sawed off out in Victorville 2001 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:40.279 in federal penitentiary by the ABS because they thought he 2002 01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:43.199 was stealing. But anyway, so we meet these guys and 2003 01:39:43.239 --> 01:39:46.560 it's like he's got a JB twenty five years for murder. 2004 01:39:48.399 --> 01:39:52.399 Paully he got hit for haul of dope between Oklahoma 2005 01:39:52.720 --> 01:39:56.600 and he got motor who was he was robbery whatever? 2006 01:39:56.880 --> 01:39:59.439 You know, all these guys had bought which was way right. 2007 01:39:59.479 --> 01:40:01.159 I mean, it was right where we wanted to be. 2008 01:40:01.239 --> 01:40:03.840 It was like, this couldn't get any better right now. 2009 01:40:04.079 --> 01:40:06.520 Our thought was, how do we control the beast, you know, 2010 01:40:06.880 --> 01:40:11.000 without getting too much shit with these guys? Right. Well, 2011 01:40:11.399 --> 01:40:15.840 so on Hitler's birthday on April twentieth, that's when we 2012 01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:18.399 had our coming out party, and the club was called 2013 01:40:18.399 --> 01:40:21.000 the Order of Blood. And it's like, okay, which I 2014 01:40:21.039 --> 01:40:25.159 didn't know anything about this. We're getting this whole historical well. 2015 01:40:25.199 --> 01:40:27.000 You know, when Hitler went to prison and all his 2016 01:40:27.119 --> 01:40:29.760 generals and our officers that came out, he gave them 2017 01:40:29.800 --> 01:40:32.520 this this, you know, this metal, the Order of Blood. 2018 01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:35.119 So that's where our patch came from. That's where the 2019 01:40:35.199 --> 01:40:38.479 name of our club come from. So while they're designing 2020 01:40:38.520 --> 01:40:41.319 the patch this this always makes me laugh at So 2021 01:40:41.640 --> 01:40:46.199 it was an eagle, right, and it had two thunderbolts 2022 01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:48.039 on the back of it, an eagle like the av 2023 01:40:48.800 --> 01:40:51.960 Falcon eagle. And then I'm like, well, why aren't we 2024 01:40:52.039 --> 01:40:55.319 using why don't we just use a swasti car. They're like, well, 2025 01:40:55.319 --> 01:40:57.319 that would just draw too much attention. But on the 2026 01:40:57.319 --> 01:41:00.000 front of our cuts we had a big swastika support 2027 01:41:02.640 --> 01:41:06.920 couldn't break it up, right, So these guys. So anyway, 2028 01:41:07.239 --> 01:41:10.159 so we just start rolling with these guys. We came 2029 01:41:10.199 --> 01:41:13.600 out and you know, people don't understand the underground. So 2030 01:41:13.920 --> 01:41:16.359 our first coming out party with these guys, we were 2031 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:19.560 up in Ohio and it was a Hell's Angels event, 2032 01:41:20.039 --> 01:41:21.880 and this is where we're gonna bring out. We're gonna 2033 01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:24.520 sell all our Nazi gear, you know, our swas because 2034 01:41:24.560 --> 01:41:30.239 our club supports stuff, right, our thunderbolts. And so we're there, 2035 01:41:30.560 --> 01:41:33.119 the Hell's Angels have their tent and and in fact, 2036 01:41:33.199 --> 01:41:35.319 I think Sonny Barger was coming in to sign books. 2037 01:41:35.359 --> 01:41:39.199 So there was a bunch of them there and and 2038 01:41:39.199 --> 01:41:42.439 and in the caveat that So in Ohio, up in 2039 01:41:42.479 --> 01:41:44.359 northeast to how they weren't supposed to be any new 2040 01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:49.000 clubs that started, right, They're like, that's it, no new clubs. Well, 2041 01:41:50.279 --> 01:41:53.159 a couple of the ab were friends with the Hell's Angels, 2042 01:41:53.159 --> 01:41:56.800 they knew them, they didn't trust them. Nobody trusted each other. 2043 01:41:57.119 --> 01:42:01.279 So I get invited to this meeting with UH with 2044 01:42:02.000 --> 01:42:06.399 the informant in AJ and then there's two Hells Angels 2045 01:42:06.399 --> 01:42:10.039 there and we go to this Denny's and we're sitting 2046 01:42:10.039 --> 01:42:12.319 there and you know, most clubs will kiss their ass 2047 01:42:12.359 --> 01:42:15.960 just because they fear them. Right, We're sitting there and 2048 01:42:16.079 --> 01:42:18.279 they tell them, hey, we're starting a club. They go, 2049 01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:21.359 what club? They go an a B club and they go, well, 2050 01:42:21.399 --> 01:42:22.680 you know, we're not supposed to say. They go, we 2051 01:42:22.680 --> 01:42:24.560 don't give a shit what you say. We're starting to club. 2052 01:42:25.720 --> 01:42:27.600 This is the first time. This is why it was 2053 01:42:27.640 --> 01:42:31.279 so great to be in this. You didn't care what 2054 01:42:31.319 --> 01:42:33.760 the club said because your gang was a prison day 2055 01:42:34.319 --> 01:42:36.720 and they knew it. They knew it. And I'll tell 2056 01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:38.800 you a story that drove that point home to the 2057 01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:43.359 Hell's Angels real quick. So they're like, okay, you know, 2058 01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:47.359 just all right, they didn't balk. So we started the club. 2059 01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:49.960 And then we showed up at that event. You know, 2060 01:42:50.000 --> 01:42:52.880 they're Hell's Angels are They knew we were coming. But anyway, 2061 01:42:53.119 --> 01:42:55.359 that ain't even the best part is we're there about 2062 01:42:55.359 --> 01:42:57.119 a half hour to an hour. Next thing, you know, 2063 01:42:57.159 --> 01:42:59.600 we got the Grand Wizard, we got a couple of 2064 01:42:59.680 --> 01:43:03.079 night we got the Grand Dragon from the from the Klan. 2065 01:43:03.399 --> 01:43:07.079 They're coming up. Welcome, brothers. We're you know, good to 2066 01:43:07.119 --> 01:43:09.520 see you. You know, it's so good to see other 2067 01:43:09.560 --> 01:43:13.039 people like us out here, and we're like, I'm telling 2068 01:43:13.079 --> 01:43:14.680 you right now, they'd have let us go about another 2069 01:43:14.720 --> 01:43:18.119 six months in that investigation. We'd have had our sheets 2070 01:43:19.119 --> 01:43:23.760 inside that, no doubt in my mind, no doubt because 2071 01:43:23.800 --> 01:43:28.239 you know, because people, you know, a lot of the 2072 01:43:28.279 --> 01:43:31.960 old school, the clubs, you know, a lot of it 2073 01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:35.279 is about white supremacy, right. I mean, they've gotten away 2074 01:43:35.279 --> 01:43:37.119 from that. Like the Hell's Angels, you know, they used 2075 01:43:37.119 --> 01:43:38.680 to wear a lot of a lot of things were 2076 01:43:39.079 --> 01:43:42.800 Swaska stunderbolts, and then once Germany came in, they couldn't 2077 01:43:42.800 --> 01:43:45.520 wear that anymore. They get fined. However, they were buying 2078 01:43:45.560 --> 01:43:48.680 our stuff and not getting caught waring it. That's like 2079 01:43:48.720 --> 01:43:51.920 a lot of clubs, you know, they'll wear the symbol, 2080 01:43:52.079 --> 01:43:55.239 you know, because it stands for supremacy whatever. It was 2081 01:43:55.319 --> 01:44:00.000 odd to see Hispanics wearing it, but okay, But anyways, 2082 01:44:00.119 --> 01:44:02.680 so you know, as time went on, we had a 2083 01:44:02.720 --> 01:44:08.199 really good relationship with both Cleveland chapters. But as we 2084 01:44:08.279 --> 01:44:11.159 grew as a club, we became we started to get 2085 01:44:11.239 --> 01:44:14.920 more powerful because people started to recognize we weren't subservient, 2086 01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:18.359 we didn't answer, and that we truly were you know 2087 01:44:18.399 --> 01:44:21.600 you guys, because all our records showed that we were 2088 01:44:21.760 --> 01:44:23.399 you know, that we were criminals for the most part. 2089 01:44:23.439 --> 01:44:25.239 And we kept a couple of guys that were clean 2090 01:44:25.680 --> 01:44:28.239 just for throwdowns. And if you want to hear a 2091 01:44:28.239 --> 01:44:30.399 funny story, I'll tell you this one. So you know 2092 01:44:30.439 --> 01:44:32.760 how you think you're smarter than the average bear. Yeah, 2093 01:44:33.880 --> 01:44:36.079 So we had been preparing to do this case for 2094 01:44:36.119 --> 01:44:38.560 like three four months getting because because at the at 2095 01:44:38.600 --> 01:44:41.119 the Pinnacle, at this case, we had twenty undercovers running 2096 01:44:41.279 --> 01:44:45.319 male and female. Okay, so we started out with five. 2097 01:44:45.720 --> 01:44:47.760 So we had to how we know each We had 2098 01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:51.239 to get all that down right. So we had seized 2099 01:44:51.239 --> 01:44:54.239 this Fleetwood Cadillac and it was an older one but 2100 01:44:54.319 --> 01:44:56.479 it was nice. So that was my car because I 2101 01:44:56.520 --> 01:44:59.199 was supposed to be the you know, the guy. Right. 2102 01:45:00.159 --> 01:45:02.760 So we're getting ready to go up to our house 2103 01:45:03.680 --> 01:45:08.000 and we had a big safe up there and everything 2104 01:45:08.079 --> 01:45:10.199 where we would store stuff because guy would we had 2105 01:45:10.199 --> 01:45:12.079 guys flying in from all over. But I had just 2106 01:45:12.119 --> 01:45:14.199 picked a bunch of guys up well I picked uh 2107 01:45:14.720 --> 01:45:18.560 three of them up in Pittsburgh. So we're going to 2108 01:45:18.600 --> 01:45:20.439 our house. We dropped a couple of bikes off that 2109 01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:23.640 we had purchased to get some work done. Okay, So 2110 01:45:23.680 --> 01:45:28.439 it's like October, it's going into November, and so it 2111 01:45:28.520 --> 01:45:31.039 was getting late in today and we're going up to Cleveland. 2112 01:45:31.079 --> 01:45:32.399 Now it's like, if we go to the house to 2113 01:45:32.479 --> 01:45:35.199 drop off all our stuff because some guys had crabs 2114 01:45:35.199 --> 01:45:36.960 in their computers because we had to do our work, 2115 01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:39.079 we were going to stash them to say it would 2116 01:45:39.199 --> 01:45:40.600 it would if we went to the house and then 2117 01:45:40.680 --> 01:45:42.239 had to go to the west side of Cleveland. It's 2118 01:45:42.279 --> 01:45:45.119 like an extra two hours with the bikes. So it 2119 01:45:45.199 --> 01:45:48.600 was getting late and we're like, okay, who's in favor 2120 01:45:48.600 --> 01:45:51.760 of going to the house. Everybody's like no, let's just 2121 01:45:51.760 --> 01:45:53.560 go get the bikes and be done with it. And 2122 01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:55.560 I had like five thousand dollars I had to pay 2123 01:45:55.880 --> 01:45:57.439 to pick them up with the work that was done. 2124 01:45:58.880 --> 01:46:03.000 So we break from our route and we're going down 2125 01:46:03.079 --> 01:46:06.680 Route ninety. Now there's me. I had long hair and 2126 01:46:06.720 --> 01:46:10.600 a big beard. Everybody else shaped like this shaved head beard. 2127 01:46:11.159 --> 01:46:15.159 And we're in a Fleetwood Cadillac and we're driving and 2128 01:46:15.199 --> 01:46:18.399 we're going traffic. It's you know, it's traffic. I think 2129 01:46:18.399 --> 01:46:20.079 this feed them was seven We were rolled like seventy 2130 01:46:20.079 --> 01:46:26.119 five seventy six, and we pet there's an interdiction team 2131 01:46:26.159 --> 01:46:28.560 sitting off on the left. Nobody told us that they 2132 01:46:28.640 --> 01:46:31.359 hang out over there. That's just poor intelligence on our part. 2133 01:46:32.000 --> 01:46:35.399 We passed this in addiction team and we all look 2134 01:46:35.439 --> 01:46:37.600 at them, and they look at us like we are 2135 01:46:37.760 --> 01:46:41.520 hit bearer than shit. They I mean, as soon as 2136 01:46:41.560 --> 01:46:44.159 we pass them, boom they come out. There's three of them. 2137 01:46:44.359 --> 01:46:46.920 They pull up behind us. They pull me over, and 2138 01:46:46.960 --> 01:46:49.760 of course now we're en roll. So I got to 2139 01:46:49.760 --> 01:46:53.680 be the asshole. So the one officer walks up to 2140 01:46:53.800 --> 01:46:56.159 the side and he hits on a window. He said, 2141 01:46:56.199 --> 01:46:57.640 roll your wind it out. So I roll it down 2142 01:46:57.720 --> 01:47:01.479 like an inch. Can I help you? Goes? He goes, well, 2143 01:47:01.600 --> 01:47:04.960 do you know why I stopped you. I wasn't speeding. 2144 01:47:05.079 --> 01:47:06.920 He goes, yeah, you were speeding. I go, I was 2145 01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:08.760 keeping with the flow of traffic. Dude, I go, that 2146 01:47:08.800 --> 01:47:11.399 wasn't speeding. He goes, roll the window down. So I 2147 01:47:11.479 --> 01:47:13.439 rolled the window down. And as I'm rolling the window 2148 01:47:13.439 --> 01:47:15.520 down and I go and no, you cannot have consent 2149 01:47:15.680 --> 01:47:20.239 to search the car. So he looks right at me like, okay, 2150 01:47:20.439 --> 01:47:23.000 we're gonna play this game. Now, Remember how how I 2151 01:47:23.000 --> 01:47:26.399 said we had a throwdown guy. Yeah, so Wayne Lester, 2152 01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:28.880 who was a newer agent who we had to bring 2153 01:47:28.920 --> 01:47:32.319 guys in who because we just had a shortage of 2154 01:47:32.319 --> 01:47:36.159 guys right who who had capability but never been in 2155 01:47:36.199 --> 01:47:39.840 this kind of situation. So Wayne didn't have a criminal history. Now, 2156 01:47:40.039 --> 01:47:43.119 prior to getting into the car, I said, okay, does 2157 01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:44.880 everybody have their guns in the trunk and in their 2158 01:47:44.920 --> 01:47:46.560 bags so if we get stopped, we're not gonna have 2159 01:47:46.600 --> 01:47:50.279 a problem. Yes. So soon as we get pulled over, 2160 01:47:50.720 --> 01:47:53.199 Jeff Gramma goes, fuck, I got my gun. I go, 2161 01:47:54.199 --> 01:47:56.199 all right, I go take the magazine, throw it in 2162 01:47:56.199 --> 01:47:58.119 the front, throw in the glove box, throw the gun 2163 01:47:58.159 --> 01:48:00.800 under his seat, because in Ohio that's just a simple 2164 01:48:00.840 --> 01:48:05.880 improper handling on the firearm. Right. So the guy's going, 2165 01:48:06.159 --> 01:48:08.199 I go, and you can't have consent the search. So 2166 01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:11.039 they come over and they pull us out of the car, 2167 01:48:12.079 --> 01:48:14.039 and so they put me in Wayne in a car 2168 01:48:14.079 --> 01:48:17.760 and they put Jeff and Dan Osbalt in the other car. 2169 01:48:17.840 --> 01:48:20.359 And Wayne's looking at me, goes, what's going on? I go, Well, 2170 01:48:20.479 --> 01:48:22.680 if somebody's going to jail for that gun, it's you, 2171 01:48:22.920 --> 01:48:25.239 Because you don't have a criminal history. So the rest 2172 01:48:25.319 --> 01:48:27.760 of us are, you know, two three times felons. I go, 2173 01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:29.720 so you're gonna have to take to hit And Wayne's 2174 01:48:29.720 --> 01:48:32.359 like what, I go, Yeah, if if they don't give 2175 01:48:32.359 --> 01:48:33.920 you a simple you're gonna have to own the gun. 2176 01:48:33.960 --> 01:48:36.760 If they ask whose gun that is, it's yours. So 2177 01:48:40.920 --> 01:48:43.239 they bring out the drug dog. Right now, we had 2178 01:48:43.279 --> 01:48:46.039 cleaned this car. There's nothing going to hit on this car. 2179 01:48:46.199 --> 01:48:49.920 So they walk the dog around the car. Once nothing. 2180 01:48:50.079 --> 01:48:53.119 I go, good dude, we're right here. Nothing. They walked 2181 01:48:53.119 --> 01:48:55.720 the dog around the car. Second time that officer put 2182 01:48:55.720 --> 01:48:59.359 his hand on the window. Ledge dog sat. Because I 2183 01:48:59.399 --> 01:49:03.039 have an alert, I go set up a bitch passive alert. 2184 01:49:03.039 --> 01:49:06.720 He got alert, my ass right, So now they're gonna 2185 01:49:06.720 --> 01:49:08.520 get in the car. They get in the front seat 2186 01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:11.319 within you know a minute, I got a gun. So 2187 01:49:11.479 --> 01:49:14.640 now now mine is the first day out on this investigation, 2188 01:49:14.680 --> 01:49:16.600 and we spent quite a good bit of money getting 2189 01:49:16.600 --> 01:49:20.039 I'm going, you can't. You can't believe it, right, So 2190 01:49:20.640 --> 01:49:22.640 we're supposed to be better than this because Dan's worked 2191 01:49:22.680 --> 01:49:25.079 the case, I work the case, Jeff worked multiple cases. 2192 01:49:25.079 --> 01:49:28.880 We should know better, right, So I sit there and 2193 01:49:28.920 --> 01:49:30.760 I say, waitne, I'm gonna have to heurt myself. He goes, 2194 01:49:30.760 --> 01:49:32.640 what do you mean out yourself? I go, I'm gonna 2195 01:49:32.680 --> 01:49:34.920 have to help myself to protect the case, because what 2196 01:49:34.920 --> 01:49:37.560 are you gonna do? I go, don't worry about it. 2197 01:49:37.640 --> 01:49:40.039 So I start banging my head on the window of 2198 01:49:40.079 --> 01:49:43.920 this of this cruiser right. So Sergeant's like yell at me, 2199 01:49:44.000 --> 01:49:47.239 shut up, shut up, stop it. So I'm about beating 2200 01:49:47.279 --> 01:49:50.319 myself unconscious. Finally upser goes, what the fuck do you want? Go? 2201 01:49:50.359 --> 01:49:52.840 I need to talk to you. So he pulls me out. 2202 01:49:52.880 --> 01:49:54.239 I go, can we go to the back of the car. 2203 01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:56.039 So he pulls. He goes, what's going on? I go, 2204 01:49:56.079 --> 01:49:58.039 all right, well, I'm gonna explain something to you. I go. 2205 01:49:58.159 --> 01:50:00.600 Might be a little bit sketchy for you to believe. 2206 01:50:00.640 --> 01:50:02.319 I go, but I'm going to lay something down to you. 2207 01:50:02.680 --> 01:50:06.479 I go. I'm an ATF agent. I go, And these 2208 01:50:06.479 --> 01:50:09.199 guys are my targets. I go, and right now you're 2209 01:50:09.239 --> 01:50:12.159 fucking up my deal. And he's looking at me, and 2210 01:50:12.239 --> 01:50:14.279 I go, okay, if you want to verify who I am, 2211 01:50:14.399 --> 01:50:15.760 I go, I got a bag in the back of 2212 01:50:15.800 --> 01:50:18.600 that car. I go, this is the bag and inside it. 2213 01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:22.279 There's a compartment that you got to, you know, pull 2214 01:50:22.359 --> 01:50:24.680 some shit apart and get into. I go, my creds 2215 01:50:24.720 --> 01:50:28.439 are in there. He goes, he's looking at me. I go, 2216 01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:30.479 just I go, but you are the only one that 2217 01:50:30.560 --> 01:50:33.239 could search that, because if these other guys it's going 2218 01:50:33.279 --> 01:50:36.079 to be a problem. So he goes in there, and 2219 01:50:36.199 --> 01:50:37.920 I could see him. That's right. He pulls my present. 2220 01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:40.720 He looks, he shuts him. Now, mind you. While we're 2221 01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:42.560 on the side of the road, about three or four 2222 01:50:42.600 --> 01:50:45.479 more cruisers show up. I'm watching our seats get launched 2223 01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:48.039 out of our car because they're tearing it apart. Right, 2224 01:50:49.640 --> 01:50:51.600 So he goes, well, how do you want to handle this? Now? 2225 01:50:51.600 --> 01:50:54.560 At this point, the lieutenants that were on our task force, 2226 01:50:54.760 --> 01:50:57.000 they both show up and he goes, well, what do 2227 01:50:57.000 --> 01:50:58.720 you want to do about the gun? I go, that 2228 01:50:58.760 --> 01:51:01.159 little dude back there in the car with me, I go, 2229 01:51:02.279 --> 01:51:04.760 just giving improper handling. He don't have a criminal history. 2230 01:51:04.760 --> 01:51:06.680 I go, the other guys just let him go for 2231 01:51:06.760 --> 01:51:09.800 right now. And he's like real cool about it. He goes, okay, 2232 01:51:09.920 --> 01:51:13.640 all right. So anyway, long story short. After three hours 2233 01:51:13.640 --> 01:51:17.119 on the side of the road, dark cars all they're 2234 01:51:17.479 --> 01:51:20.239 They're like okay, they're wrapping up, and then like, okay, 2235 01:51:20.279 --> 01:51:22.399 we got to put our seats back in. We gotta 2236 01:51:22.439 --> 01:51:25.479 do okay. So we get back in the car and 2237 01:51:25.760 --> 01:51:28.840 after something traumatic like that, the speed limit was seventy 2238 01:51:28.840 --> 01:51:31.680 I think I was going forty because we're all looking 2239 01:51:31.680 --> 01:51:34.920 at each other like we're supposed to be so much 2240 01:51:35.000 --> 01:51:38.680 better than this, and yeah, this is day one. So 2241 01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:44.039 I'm driving down a road. Car comes flying up behind. 2242 01:51:44.079 --> 01:51:47.640 He lights me up. I'm going you gotta be shipped. 2243 01:51:47.720 --> 01:51:49.640 I mean, I'm like, I might as well just let's 2244 01:51:49.680 --> 01:51:53.000 just quit right now. Pulls me over. It's the sergeant 2245 01:51:54.359 --> 01:51:56.359 and to his they never said a word about me, 2246 01:51:56.479 --> 01:51:58.319 and the case went on. I mean, I give them 2247 01:51:58.319 --> 01:52:00.880 that credit. They never said a word anybody about me. 2248 01:52:01.239 --> 01:52:04.039 But he comes up, he goes, you forgot this, and 2249 01:52:04.079 --> 01:52:06.199 he hands me my five thousand dollars that I forgot 2250 01:52:06.199 --> 01:52:07.720 that he even took off me when he searched me. 2251 01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:11.800 I became so tunnel visioned. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm like 2252 01:52:11.880 --> 01:52:14.520 God almighty. So we go we pick up the bikes. 2253 01:52:14.560 --> 01:52:18.840 Now it's dark and it's cold, so the other guys 2254 01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:21.720 take off in the car and we put all our 2255 01:52:22.239 --> 01:52:24.199 gear on and our cuts on. Now now we've got 2256 01:52:24.199 --> 01:52:27.680 our you know, and we start rolling down the same road. Right, 2257 01:52:27.720 --> 01:52:30.119 we're on two bikes. Now, our face are all messed up. 2258 01:52:30.119 --> 01:52:32.560 We got helmets on. Dude, we passed the same in 2259 01:52:32.600 --> 01:52:37.760 addiction in it, they're out right behind us, the sergeant 2260 01:52:38.039 --> 01:52:40.600 because he must' not. He rolls up and he's looking 2261 01:52:40.640 --> 01:52:42.520 at us, and I'm on the I'm on the on 2262 01:52:42.560 --> 01:52:45.079 the inside, just on it. I pulled my mask down 2263 01:52:45.119 --> 01:52:48.880 and I'm like, as if to say, we're real, come on, 2264 01:52:49.319 --> 01:52:50.720 And then all of a sudden they backed out and 2265 01:52:50.760 --> 01:52:52.600 they went, I mean, you want to talk about a 2266 01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:56.319 night of just self reflection, you know, just like dudes, 2267 01:52:56.640 --> 01:52:59.760 everything that could have went wrong went wrong, you know 2268 01:53:00.119 --> 01:53:04.399 it did, which woke us up because that case was 2269 01:53:04.600 --> 01:53:08.119 different than any other case. I went, because those guys scrutinized, 2270 01:53:08.479 --> 01:53:11.239 they had security guys. They wanted to know everything about you. 2271 01:53:11.560 --> 01:53:14.000 They were constantly looking at guys getting out of prison. 2272 01:53:14.359 --> 01:53:16.680 If they made deals. You're allowed to talk to this one, 2273 01:53:16.720 --> 01:53:20.520 don't talk to that one, you know. So as we 2274 01:53:20.720 --> 01:53:25.600 started off in in actually our house was in Geneva 2275 01:53:25.600 --> 01:53:29.680 and the lake and then it was beautiful, overlooked the lake. 2276 01:53:29.720 --> 01:53:31.319 It was a big house. We you know, we all 2277 01:53:31.399 --> 01:53:33.399 kind of lived there, came and went, and we kind 2278 01:53:33.439 --> 01:53:36.960 of expanded into a couple of cities. But the chapters, 2279 01:53:37.159 --> 01:53:39.880 the chapters started to grow, you know, we started to 2280 01:53:39.880 --> 01:53:43.319 get more members as guys got out of prison. Guys 2281 01:53:43.319 --> 01:53:46.840 were bringing in people from prison. So it was, you 2282 01:53:46.840 --> 01:53:48.319 know a lot of dope. Like, hey, you know, the 2283 01:53:48.359 --> 01:53:51.199 one good thing about it is we So we had 2284 01:53:51.199 --> 01:53:54.319 this house right and they had a big flagpole, so 2285 01:53:54.560 --> 01:53:57.399 it's like there was no secret who we were, right, 2286 01:53:57.600 --> 01:54:02.279 a bunch of Nazis. So we Nazi flag. My boss 2287 01:54:02.359 --> 01:54:04.920 rode by there one time, just check the house. Hot. 2288 01:54:04.960 --> 01:54:06.680 I get a call this, you got to take that 2289 01:54:06.800 --> 01:54:11.359 flag down. I go, why, he goes, I take the 2290 01:54:11.399 --> 01:54:13.840 flag down. He goes, it's a Nazi flag. I go, 2291 01:54:14.520 --> 01:54:18.720 we're Nazis are He goes, No, he goes, it's too 2292 01:54:18.960 --> 01:54:21.359 He goes, it's too much. So we ended up flying 2293 01:54:21.359 --> 01:54:25.760 a pirate flag instead. However, all those people up in 2294 01:54:25.760 --> 01:54:29.279 that area, we had people, I'm not shitting you. People 2295 01:54:29.319 --> 01:54:33.279 would just knock on our door because we'd be outside, 2296 01:54:33.399 --> 01:54:36.479 everybody's tattooed, you know, washing bike. People would just knock 2297 01:54:36.479 --> 01:54:38.039 on the door, asking if we want to buy dope 2298 01:54:38.079 --> 01:54:41.039 and guns. We had these two idiots to work for 2299 01:54:41.079 --> 01:54:46.159 the city. You know, those big steel manhole covers. It 2300 01:54:46.199 --> 01:54:48.399 was like Jeremiah Johnson. They would drop stuff off at 2301 01:54:48.439 --> 01:54:51.920 our house with the big swastikas of thunderbolts on him, 2302 01:54:52.359 --> 01:54:54.520 and then they would drop off these manhole companies. Right. 2303 01:54:54.720 --> 01:54:56.800 So one of the guys ends up asking goes, hey, man, 2304 01:54:57.039 --> 01:54:59.000 where are you getting these? They go, We're just pulling 2305 01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:01.640 them off the street. He's like, so you leave the 2306 01:55:01.680 --> 01:55:04.159 big holes on the street where we ride our motorcycles, 2307 01:55:04.720 --> 01:55:08.199 you idiot, you know, But they would, I mean, we 2308 01:55:08.239 --> 01:55:11.479 had there were councilmen that would stop up and talk 2309 01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:15.119 to us. You would think, you know, in today's age, 2310 01:55:15.159 --> 01:55:17.520 you know you talk about racism, people just don't know 2311 01:55:17.800 --> 01:55:22.800 how much racism exists still today where people you know, 2312 01:55:22.840 --> 01:55:25.279 we used to sell our gear. People would buy our 2313 01:55:25.399 --> 01:55:28.880 gear tenfold. We had guys that were buying off of 2314 01:55:28.960 --> 01:55:31.960 some black eyes. So we had a tent that these 2315 01:55:32.000 --> 01:55:33.760 guys would give us on the main street at Geneva 2316 01:55:33.800 --> 01:55:35.920 on Lake. I roll up with one of the other 2317 01:55:35.960 --> 01:55:37.880 guys and I see two of our guys standing there 2318 01:55:37.880 --> 01:55:40.600 who are buying up off a black eye. He's wearing 2319 01:55:40.880 --> 01:55:46.560 our Avy support shirt. I walked up. They're laughing. I go, dude, 2320 01:55:46.600 --> 01:55:48.159 you better get that off, I said, because if David 2321 01:55:48.199 --> 01:55:51.760 Snow shows up over here, he'll kill that motherfucker. I go, you, guys, 2322 01:55:51.840 --> 01:55:55.159 this isn't I go. Serious business, serious business. They're not 2323 01:55:55.159 --> 01:55:58.039 gonna they're not gonna laugh at that right. So anyway, 2324 01:55:58.239 --> 01:56:01.279 but we had people that were and wearing our stuff 2325 01:56:01.359 --> 01:56:04.840 all over the place. I mean, we had clubs. When 2326 01:56:04.880 --> 01:56:07.199 they got in trouble, they would call us to help 2327 01:56:07.399 --> 01:56:10.239 defend them or work things out for them. And this 2328 01:56:10.319 --> 01:56:12.800 is over time. We got to be pretty good friends 2329 01:56:12.800 --> 01:56:14.800 with a guy named He's not he's out of the 2330 01:56:14.840 --> 01:56:18.239 club now because of our I think our friendship Willie Beard, 2331 01:56:18.279 --> 01:56:20.159 who was in who was in the Hell's Angels, And 2332 01:56:20.199 --> 01:56:22.760 he took to us and he said, hey, you guys 2333 01:56:22.840 --> 01:56:25.319 run your operations good. You do stuff the right way 2334 01:56:25.600 --> 01:56:28.640 because you guys aren't any bullshit. You handle your business. 2335 01:56:29.119 --> 01:56:31.720 And and we did. There were times where things would 2336 01:56:31.720 --> 01:56:33.840 come up to where we would have to handle our business, 2337 01:56:34.159 --> 01:56:37.560 you know, where guys would would try, you know, test us, 2338 01:56:37.840 --> 01:56:40.199 and then it was on, you know, and and and 2339 01:56:40.880 --> 01:56:43.520 it was over quickly because we did. We had a 2340 01:56:43.560 --> 01:56:45.640 lot of big dudes in our club, and it was 2341 01:56:46.000 --> 01:56:49.319 you know, it would get contentious because you know, we 2342 01:56:49.359 --> 01:56:51.880 had the Pagans. We would go to Pagan territory. They're like, well, 2343 01:56:51.920 --> 01:56:54.039 you guys are up in northeast Ohio, how can you 2344 01:56:54.079 --> 01:56:57.600 have no affiliation with the Hell's Angels. We don't. Uh. 2345 01:56:57.800 --> 01:56:59.920 In fact, one of the original council members for their 2346 01:57:00.119 --> 01:57:02.720 brotherhood was a Pagan. So we ended up getting real 2347 01:57:02.760 --> 01:57:07.119 good with the Pagans. We had some affiliation with the Outlaws, 2348 01:57:07.920 --> 01:57:10.359 and we also had affiliations with all the other clubs 2349 01:57:10.359 --> 01:57:12.039 that were up and around in that area. So we 2350 01:57:12.039 --> 01:57:15.880 were running. We ended up having guys in Akron, up 2351 01:57:15.880 --> 01:57:18.319 in Geneva on the Lake, and then over in Sharon, Pennsylvania. 2352 01:57:18.359 --> 01:57:20.000 So we had three chapters by the time, and this 2353 01:57:20.119 --> 01:57:23.239 thing was ballooning up. You know, we had guys calling 2354 01:57:23.319 --> 01:57:28.159 from from the penitentiary that were calling asking us to join, 2355 01:57:28.439 --> 01:57:31.920 you know when we get out, you know, so, I mean, 2356 01:57:32.039 --> 01:57:34.199 it was, it was, and they were in the beauty 2357 01:57:34.199 --> 01:57:37.079 of it was. They were all great violent targets. We 2358 01:57:37.159 --> 01:57:40.119 had this one guy. There's some twist to this story 2359 01:57:40.359 --> 01:57:43.119 that so if you got if you got the time 2360 01:57:43.119 --> 01:57:48.520 for this. Yeah, yeah, JB, who was a member of 2361 01:57:48.600 --> 01:57:51.960 Darion Brotherhood, right, he went down for murder. Okay, he 2362 01:57:52.079 --> 01:57:54.720 was actually and we knew this, but he didn't know 2363 01:57:54.760 --> 01:57:58.439 we knew this. He was actually an informant for Tim Miracle, 2364 01:57:58.880 --> 01:58:02.920 who was the adult. Right, So while this case is 2365 01:58:02.960 --> 01:58:06.560 going on, he's informing But guess who he's informing on? 2366 01:58:06.560 --> 01:58:09.760 Only us, None of the other AB's not David because 2367 01:58:09.760 --> 01:58:12.760 he was deafinitely afraid of David, right, everybody was. We 2368 01:58:12.760 --> 01:58:15.800 were deathly afraid of David. You know, look at David. 2369 01:58:15.800 --> 01:58:23.560 He didn't look like much but Puku anyway, So John 2370 01:58:23.880 --> 01:58:27.640 Beason's starting to get too powerful. He's starting to want 2371 01:58:27.680 --> 01:58:29.760 to do too many things that's going to get us 2372 01:58:30.079 --> 01:58:31.760 down a road we don't want to go. So it's like, 2373 01:58:31.800 --> 01:58:33.800 so how do we get rid of him? Because we 2374 01:58:33.840 --> 01:58:36.359 had to get rid of AJ two. And I'll tell 2375 01:58:36.359 --> 01:58:39.359 you how we got rid of him. This was before JB. 2376 01:58:39.399 --> 01:58:42.840 But so we JB had showed some of the guys 2377 01:58:42.920 --> 01:58:47.159 in the club that he hadn't cut right, So based 2378 01:58:47.199 --> 01:58:50.960 on that, they executed a search warrant and they sealed 2379 01:58:50.960 --> 01:58:55.239 the warrant and they arrested him. Okay, So JB had 2380 01:58:55.239 --> 01:58:59.399 a bad heart. So he goes. He goes because he's 2381 01:58:59.399 --> 01:59:03.039 going for role revocation now because he's out on parole 2382 01:59:03.119 --> 01:59:07.079 and now he's facing federal charges. Well, he gets charged 2383 01:59:07.119 --> 01:59:10.840 in federal court, and his attorney in Oprah Court says 2384 01:59:11.359 --> 01:59:15.000 that he's an active informant because ATF signed him up too. 2385 01:59:15.520 --> 01:59:18.640 He's an active informant for ATF any adult parole authority 2386 01:59:18.680 --> 01:59:20.840 informing on the Hell's Angels in the air in brotherhood. 2387 01:59:21.680 --> 01:59:25.239 Now I get this information, it's like we can get 2388 01:59:25.319 --> 01:59:27.279 rid of them. So I called the US Attorney's Office. 2389 01:59:27.279 --> 01:59:29.159 I go, are we allowed to put that out? They go, no, 2390 01:59:29.680 --> 01:59:31.520 because if you guys put it out something happens in 2391 01:59:31.520 --> 01:59:34.479 then we're liable. Right, I go, but what if I 2392 01:59:34.600 --> 01:59:37.840 direct some people to go get a copy of the 2393 01:59:37.840 --> 01:59:39.720 transcript and they read it. Then they go, you can 2394 01:59:39.760 --> 01:59:43.199 do that because it's public information. So I did, so 2395 01:59:44.000 --> 01:59:46.920 I had Paulie and David Snow go get the go 2396 01:59:46.960 --> 01:59:50.640 get the transcript. So they called me all the way 2397 01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:54.880 back from the courthouse in Cleveland, and and and David 2398 01:59:54.960 --> 01:59:57.760 straight out he goes, that motherfucker's dead. He goes, he's 2399 01:59:57.760 --> 02:00:00.239 a snitch. He's a rat now pollying him a good 2400 02:00:00.279 --> 02:00:03.279 friends meaning JB fall We don't know the whole story 2401 02:00:03.319 --> 02:00:08.119 goes fuck him, He goes, he's dead. Oh shit. I'm like, yeah, 2402 02:00:08.159 --> 02:00:14.079 well anyway, so, needless to say, so JB gets locked 2403 02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:19.319 up right in, about two weeks later, he's dead, not 2404 02:00:19.439 --> 02:00:24.159 from anything we did, but because of his heart gave out. Wow. 2405 02:00:24.439 --> 02:00:28.800 However though, so so in the meantime, once it was public, 2406 02:00:28.880 --> 02:00:30.840 I was able to call Willy Beard and said, hey, Willy, 2407 02:00:30.880 --> 02:00:33.319 there's a problem with JB. Blah blah blah. He goes, well, 2408 02:00:33.359 --> 02:00:37.720 let me know what you find out. So JB gets 2409 02:00:38.079 --> 02:00:41.520 JB dies in prison. Well, to our advantage, I call 2410 02:00:41.880 --> 02:00:43.880 up Willie and I go Willie Ja. I said, we 2411 02:00:43.920 --> 02:00:46.279 don't have to worry about JB anymore. He goes, huh, 2412 02:00:46.359 --> 02:00:48.600 I go, he's gone. He goes, oh, got to go. 2413 02:00:49.520 --> 02:00:51.640 So now these sons a bit of state that we 2414 02:00:51.680 --> 02:00:55.680 had him off them, which gives us so much credibility, right, unbelievable. 2415 02:00:55.720 --> 02:00:57.880 I mean, it's awesome, right, We had a lot of 2416 02:00:57.880 --> 02:01:00.439 things go our way that way. We just kept mounting 2417 02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:02.039 because the first when we were in this club, it 2418 02:01:02.119 --> 02:01:04.640 was like, well, everybody had to be like a criminal 2419 02:01:04.640 --> 02:01:06.760 that did five years. Then it was a violent crime, 2420 02:01:06.800 --> 02:01:09.520 then it was murk. This was self perpetuating within the 2421 02:01:09.560 --> 02:01:11.800 other clubs, not us. We weren't putting this stuff out. 2422 02:01:12.439 --> 02:01:15.199 So and the way we got rid of AJ was 2423 02:01:15.239 --> 02:01:19.640 AJ again. So, in his infinite wisdom, the guy that 2424 02:01:19.800 --> 02:01:22.760 was actually the informant for the Hell's Angels, they decide 2425 02:01:22.800 --> 02:01:25.239 to go down to a Hell's Angels bar in East Cleveland, 2426 02:01:25.359 --> 02:01:31.800 and AJ doesn't burnout in their bar, which angers that right. Yeah, 2427 02:01:32.119 --> 02:01:35.600 So the next as it should and the next day 2428 02:01:35.800 --> 02:01:38.920 there's these drag races. Right now, it's a heavy Hell's 2429 02:01:38.960 --> 02:01:43.680 Angel's presence. We're going. So we had a bunch of guys, 2430 02:01:43.680 --> 02:01:46.800 we probably had till ten or twelve guys at that 2431 02:01:46.840 --> 02:01:49.840 point go with us. I mean everybody went. So and 2432 02:01:50.000 --> 02:01:54.119 AJ drove his truck because at this point we got 2433 02:01:54.119 --> 02:01:55.880 to do something because the Hell's Angel want to kill him. 2434 02:01:56.199 --> 02:01:59.520 They literally want to kill because they know AJ. So 2435 02:02:00.199 --> 02:02:02.800 we pull into this event and here's Hell's Angels posted 2436 02:02:02.840 --> 02:02:08.520 all over the place, right, and so we roll in 2437 02:02:09.119 --> 02:02:13.720 and so it's me jb And and David stnune Up. 2438 02:02:13.800 --> 02:02:17.319 David stone ever took an officer position at all it was. 2439 02:02:17.399 --> 02:02:20.520 It was it was me, JB and and AJ at 2440 02:02:20.560 --> 02:02:24.479 the time. So AJ was kind of out at this point. 2441 02:02:24.760 --> 02:02:27.359 So David goes, he goes, hey, everywhere you see Hell's Angel, 2442 02:02:27.680 --> 02:02:31.199 you guys go post up because everybody got a gun. Yeah, 2443 02:02:31.279 --> 02:02:34.359 go post up. So our guys en angled out and 2444 02:02:34.399 --> 02:02:37.279 we're posted up next to their guys. So Johnny Merchant, 2445 02:02:37.359 --> 02:02:41.600 who is just this big animal and face, they're standing 2446 02:02:41.600 --> 02:02:44.960 over there. So I go over with JB and we're 2447 02:02:44.960 --> 02:02:48.079 talking and JV and and merchants like, where's AJ? Where 2448 02:02:48.159 --> 02:02:51.000 to kick his ass? We're kick his ass? And now 2449 02:02:51.239 --> 02:02:54.760 about now, all these guys, nobody's young, you know. Everybody's 2450 02:02:54.800 --> 02:02:57.960 over forty years old, approaching fifty, you know, and this stuff, 2451 02:02:58.239 --> 02:03:01.880 so it's like children anyway. So JB goes, you're not 2452 02:03:01.920 --> 02:03:04.000 touching anybody in our club. I go, if there's anybody 2453 02:03:04.000 --> 02:03:07.039 going to be disciplined, and it'll be us. What's the problem. 2454 02:03:07.439 --> 02:03:09.239 So he told him what was gone. He goes all right, 2455 02:03:09.279 --> 02:03:11.800 He goes all right, he goes, we want AJ. We're 2456 02:03:11.840 --> 02:03:17.239 gonna he goes, and JB goes just stand by. He goes, Junkyard, 2457 02:03:17.279 --> 02:03:19.640 come with me. So we go back and David's standing 2458 02:03:19.680 --> 02:03:22.680 over there now, David. Okay, so just a little background 2459 02:03:22.680 --> 02:03:26.520 on David. David got convicted of six counts of attempted 2460 02:03:26.600 --> 02:03:28.920 murder because he held his girlfriend who was playing Russian 2461 02:03:28.960 --> 02:03:31.479 Roulette before somebody escaped down an house called the police. Right, 2462 02:03:32.399 --> 02:03:35.479 he got fifteen years. He came up for parole in 2463 02:03:35.680 --> 02:03:38.279 eight When he went before the parole board, he told him, 2464 02:03:38.279 --> 02:03:43.000 fuck you, I'm not I'm not telling you I'm sorry 2465 02:03:43.079 --> 02:03:45.279 or anything. So they sent him to the youngs tom 2466 02:03:45.479 --> 02:03:49.319 Max Security prison, where he orchestrated the Lucasfville riots from there. 2467 02:03:50.039 --> 02:03:52.479 While he was in prison, we got from the guys 2468 02:03:52.520 --> 02:03:55.119 that we talked to the security guys that work in 2469 02:03:55.159 --> 02:03:58.760 the prisons. He stabbed the guy. He actually shot a 2470 02:03:58.800 --> 02:04:01.359 guy in the head but he didn't die. But they 2471 02:04:01.439 --> 02:04:05.479 ran everything concurrent when he got out of prison. Now 2472 02:04:05.560 --> 02:04:07.800 this is Jay been up said he was living under 2473 02:04:07.800 --> 02:04:12.359 his mother's trailer because he was in solitary twenty three 2474 02:04:12.439 --> 02:04:15.000 hours a day. Like you couldn't go through a drive 2475 02:04:15.039 --> 02:04:17.000 through because he goes, I'm not talking to the box, 2476 02:04:17.600 --> 02:04:20.880 I mean. And when he first came around, this dude, 2477 02:04:20.920 --> 02:04:24.760 he spent most of his you know, teenage years dry 2478 02:04:24.800 --> 02:04:28.960 cleaning so he would wear dockers and polos and the 2479 02:04:29.000 --> 02:04:31.319 worst tattoos you ever seen in your life. He was 2480 02:04:31.399 --> 02:04:37.840 balding then, but just violent as hell. But you never 2481 02:04:37.920 --> 02:04:40.439 know that if you just talked to him and met him. 2482 02:04:40.560 --> 02:04:45.319 Seemed like half ass, normal guy. So we go back 2483 02:04:45.399 --> 02:04:53.840 over and we're talking to David, and David goes. He goes, 2484 02:04:53.840 --> 02:04:55.800 all right, here's how it's going to go. He goes, 2485 02:04:55.840 --> 02:04:58.760 you go back and tell them motherfuckers. He goes. If 2486 02:04:58.800 --> 02:05:01.680 they touch one of us, he goes, we will green 2487 02:05:01.720 --> 02:05:06.680 light every hell's angel across the country. At that point, 2488 02:05:09.520 --> 02:05:11.720 I've been in other clubs that I've been around other clubs, 2489 02:05:12.000 --> 02:05:15.479 I've never felt that much power in my life that 2490 02:05:15.560 --> 02:05:17.960 we're going to go over there and tell them this. 2491 02:05:18.960 --> 02:05:23.159 And it was okay, I go, JB, that's your call. 2492 02:05:23.560 --> 02:05:27.199 So we walk over there and they're and they know 2493 02:05:27.239 --> 02:05:31.119 who David is and and JB said, I just got 2494 02:05:31.119 --> 02:05:34.279 one message to pass to you. He goes, David said, 2495 02:05:35.199 --> 02:05:38.520 if you touch one of our members, we're going to 2496 02:05:38.600 --> 02:05:42.319 green light all your people across the country. They looked 2497 02:05:42.319 --> 02:05:47.000 at us, You saw their faces. Everything changed immediately because 2498 02:05:47.000 --> 02:05:50.279 they knew he had that power, you know, or he 2499 02:05:50.319 --> 02:05:52.680 could get to those people who had that power, you know, 2500 02:05:54.520 --> 02:05:57.199 and uh so things kind of change, you know, the 2501 02:05:57.279 --> 02:05:59.319 format changed, and then you know they were having an 2502 02:05:59.359 --> 02:06:01.840 officer's meaning, this is where we're going to be seen 2503 02:06:01.920 --> 02:06:05.479 by all the other clubs. So we had these things 2504 02:06:05.520 --> 02:06:07.800 called death marches because we never knew how they were 2505 02:06:07.800 --> 02:06:09.800 going to turn out. It's just had to go do 2506 02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:13.079 it because that's what was required. So usually it's only 2507 02:06:13.119 --> 02:06:15.640 a couple of two or three members that are allowed 2508 02:06:15.680 --> 02:06:17.720 to go, usually the officers that go to these things, 2509 02:06:17.880 --> 02:06:19.720 and then the Hell's Angels lecture you and tell you 2510 02:06:19.880 --> 02:06:22.359 how they're going to extort you for all their events 2511 02:06:22.359 --> 02:06:25.880 that you have to prepay for and everything. Right, So 2512 02:06:26.239 --> 02:06:29.159 I'm sitting there and face goes, hey, we're going to 2513 02:06:29.239 --> 02:06:30.960 have this thing down here. I go, hey, man, none 2514 02:06:30.960 --> 02:06:32.239 of our guys have ever been any of this, Like, 2515 02:06:32.279 --> 02:06:34.319 do you mind if we come? Like I bring more? 2516 02:06:34.560 --> 02:06:37.960 He goes, yeah, bring whoever you want, which saved our ass. 2517 02:06:38.399 --> 02:06:40.399 So we go down this long road and of course 2518 02:06:40.439 --> 02:06:44.000 our cover teams watching the drag races, they're not watching us, yee. 2519 02:06:44.600 --> 02:06:47.800 So we go down this long path and there's this tent, right, 2520 02:06:48.479 --> 02:06:51.680 so all the other clubs are sitting there and here's 2521 02:06:51.680 --> 02:06:56.439 probably like six or seven of us, and they're saying, hey, 2522 02:06:56.439 --> 02:06:58.840 this is a new club. Order Blood and a couple 2523 02:06:58.840 --> 02:07:00.920 of the clubs drip up and say, hey, we thought 2524 02:07:00.960 --> 02:07:02.760 you said there wasn't gonna be any new clubs. It says, 2525 02:07:02.760 --> 02:07:06.760 shut the fuck up. They're here, and then they kind 2526 02:07:06.760 --> 02:07:09.000 of started to figure out what we were about. Right, 2527 02:07:09.560 --> 02:07:14.720 So this meeting breaks up. Now, Roy Bootsterer was the 2528 02:07:14.720 --> 02:07:17.720 longest prospect in the history of the Hell's Angels. I 2529 02:07:17.720 --> 02:07:21.479 think he prospected for three years. That's a long time. 2530 02:07:21.960 --> 02:07:25.439 So we're so they asked us to stay back. There 2531 02:07:25.439 --> 02:07:28.640 were two or three other Hell's Angels and this this 2532 02:07:28.640 --> 02:07:32.439 this prospect, Roy Bootster, So they asked us to hang 2533 02:07:32.439 --> 02:07:34.199 back and we're talking. So I'm looking out of the 2534 02:07:34.239 --> 02:07:37.079 fore of my eye and Roy's putting on his sap gloves. 2535 02:07:37.319 --> 02:07:40.720 He's turning his sod off shotgun towards us, and I'm like, 2536 02:07:41.560 --> 02:07:43.079 so I'm bumped. A couple of guys goes, are you 2537 02:07:43.119 --> 02:07:45.920 guys seeing his bullshit? So it was like we close 2538 02:07:46.039 --> 02:07:48.159 ranks into the Hell's Angels because it's like, if he's 2539 02:07:48.159 --> 02:07:49.640 going to shoot one of us, he's got to shoot 2540 02:07:49.680 --> 02:07:52.920 down right, and JB didn't see it. He goes, what's 2541 02:07:52.960 --> 02:07:54.800 going on? I go, just I go, I got time 2542 02:07:54.800 --> 02:07:58.199 to explain. I close it up. So they start talking 2543 02:07:58.239 --> 02:08:00.399 about what needs to happen and how we have to 2544 02:08:00.439 --> 02:08:04.640 send some guys down to the j Bar so that 2545 02:08:04.680 --> 02:08:08.720 they can apologize, which David was vietmamly against. But we're like, David, 2546 02:08:08.760 --> 02:08:11.520 we got to exist here. We'll take care of that business. 2547 02:08:11.640 --> 02:08:13.279 Let them. You know, we're kind of big because the 2548 02:08:13.279 --> 02:08:15.439 plan was again to kill all of them, So it's like, hey, 2549 02:08:15.760 --> 02:08:19.520 let's just think they're in control. You know, we're kind 2550 02:08:19.520 --> 02:08:22.560 of guiding David. Let them think we're in control, and 2551 02:08:22.560 --> 02:08:24.840 then let them go apologize. So two guys went down 2552 02:08:24.880 --> 02:08:28.800 and apologize, so they couldn't do anything because we had 2553 02:08:28.840 --> 02:08:31.039 closed ranks runner guys, so they just broke it up. 2554 02:08:31.439 --> 02:08:33.760 So as we're walking back up the hill, JB looks 2555 02:08:33.800 --> 02:08:35.239 at me, he goes, what the hell was that all about? 2556 02:08:35.279 --> 02:08:38.119 I go, dude, they were getting ready to shoot us 2557 02:08:38.119 --> 02:08:41.039 with that shotgun. He goes, what, I go, Yeah, So 2558 02:08:41.119 --> 02:08:43.319 I told my guys, I go, we're gonna kill everybody 2559 02:08:43.399 --> 02:08:45.680 here that's not wearing our patch and we're dropping our 2560 02:08:45.680 --> 02:08:48.439 shit and getting out of here. And he looked at me, 2561 02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:50.760 he goes, Junkyard, He goes, I only got one problem 2562 02:08:50.800 --> 02:08:52.520 with that, And I go, what is? He goes, you 2563 02:08:52.560 --> 02:08:54.359 need to fucking tell me that when you're gonna do 2564 02:08:54.399 --> 02:08:57.560 shit like that. I'm like, okay, cool, well I'm telling 2565 02:08:57.600 --> 02:08:59.800 you now, he goes, he goes. Because they didn't care. 2566 02:09:00.279 --> 02:09:02.920 It was like, if you know, the patch was something 2567 02:09:02.960 --> 02:09:05.520 that was just a novelty for them to be able 2568 02:09:05.560 --> 02:09:08.319 to ride around and be a club. But the brand 2569 02:09:08.600 --> 02:09:11.039 AB brand is what kept them together. We kept all 2570 02:09:11.039 --> 02:09:13.039 of us together because we're the only guys that were 2571 02:09:13.079 --> 02:09:15.800 part of an AB thing that never really went through 2572 02:09:15.840 --> 02:09:19.000 the whole process of becoming an a B inside the joint, right, 2573 02:09:19.239 --> 02:09:21.560 you know, which was unique in and of itself. I mean, 2574 02:09:21.600 --> 02:09:23.840 they took pictures of us and sent them inside a 2575 02:09:23.880 --> 02:09:26.119 joint to see if anybody knew us or anything like that. 2576 02:09:26.479 --> 02:09:28.960 But you know, we were we were pretty much on 2577 02:09:29.039 --> 02:09:30.640 equal standing with those guys. 2578 02:09:31.600 --> 02:09:34.960 So how you know, go ahead, No, I'm just curious 2579 02:09:34.960 --> 02:09:39.920 because you know, you're talking about a very interesting dynamic here, right, 2580 02:09:39.960 --> 02:09:43.000 You're talking about the Hell's Angels and the Pagans and 2581 02:09:43.399 --> 02:09:48.720 these motorcycle gangs who their guys sometimes get sent to prison, 2582 02:09:48.840 --> 02:09:51.920 and when they do get toent to prison, I imagine 2583 02:09:52.079 --> 02:09:55.039 generally have to rely on the Area and Brotherhood, which 2584 02:09:55.079 --> 02:09:58.680 isn't a motorcycle gang. It's a prison gang that you know, 2585 02:09:58.720 --> 02:10:02.760 it's it's it's a major protective and a violent force 2586 02:10:02.880 --> 02:10:06.359 inside a prism. So now all of a sudden, the 2587 02:10:06.399 --> 02:10:10.199 Arian Brotherhood is they're sort of outside the law when 2588 02:10:10.199 --> 02:10:13.000 it comes to these motorcycle gangs, right, Like, they have 2589 02:10:13.600 --> 02:10:16.439 a way more reach than a lot of these motorcycle 2590 02:10:16.479 --> 02:10:16.840 gangs do. 2591 02:10:17.920 --> 02:10:19.880 Well. So you know, every time you go into club, 2592 02:10:19.920 --> 02:10:22.880 you learn their you know their background, their history. Right. 2593 02:10:23.199 --> 02:10:27.279 So so of course Darren Brother is going to tell 2594 02:10:27.319 --> 02:10:29.880 you at least like the Aaron Brother in Ohio was 2595 02:10:29.880 --> 02:10:33.119 brought from Arizona. That's where David brought it back from. 2596 02:10:33.199 --> 02:10:37.319 Right So in Arizona started from California. So you're going 2597 02:10:37.399 --> 02:10:39.319 to learn the law of that. And so we were 2598 02:10:39.359 --> 02:10:41.159 talking to David about that because he did not like 2599 02:10:41.199 --> 02:10:44.119 the Hell's Angels. He hated them, And I'm like, David, 2600 02:10:44.119 --> 02:10:46.079 what's the rough He goes, well, he goes it goes 2601 02:10:46.119 --> 02:10:49.800 back to the riots in the sixties. He goes when 2602 02:10:49.840 --> 02:10:51.800 we were he goes, you know, he goes, we were 2603 02:10:51.880 --> 02:10:55.560 riding with the blacks. He used another term, right, he goes, 2604 02:10:55.960 --> 02:10:58.479 he goes, We went to the Hell's Angels, you know, 2605 02:10:58.520 --> 02:10:59.880 to see if they're with us, and they said, no, 2606 02:11:00.399 --> 02:11:04.920 we're not. We're not white or Hell's Angels. And to 2607 02:11:04.920 --> 02:11:09.319 this day that carries like they remember that. So like 2608 02:11:09.600 --> 02:11:13.680 in state, in federal prison, they're okay. State prison, they 2609 02:11:13.760 --> 02:11:18.119 keep away. Now, most clubs don't allow you to become 2610 02:11:18.119 --> 02:11:21.000 an Aaron Brotherhood member. And being a club, right, Aaron 2611 02:11:21.039 --> 02:11:22.800 brother don't care if you if you're in a club 2612 02:11:22.880 --> 02:11:24.319 or not, you know what I mean. But the clubs 2613 02:11:24.319 --> 02:11:27.479 don't want you because what happens is is divided loyalty 2614 02:11:27.520 --> 02:11:31.680 then and who has the bigger stick? Now, you know, 2615 02:11:31.960 --> 02:11:34.000 we got taught a lot about Aaron Brotherhood, you know, 2616 02:11:34.159 --> 02:11:36.920 I mean, we were buying off of guys. We bought 2617 02:11:36.920 --> 02:11:39.560 off a black, We bought off of the Mexican mafia. 2618 02:11:40.199 --> 02:11:43.920 We bought anybody because the color was green, right, if 2619 02:11:43.960 --> 02:11:46.359 it was green, and we could make money. So you know, 2620 02:11:46.399 --> 02:11:49.840 when you look at the hierarchy of white supremacist right, 2621 02:11:49.960 --> 02:11:54.720 you have the true believers, but the thear In Brotherhood 2622 02:11:54.840 --> 02:11:58.000 is more. It's a prison game. You know. When they're out, 2623 02:11:58.119 --> 02:12:00.399 they're cliquish, they do stuff, But it's all all about 2624 02:12:00.399 --> 02:12:03.600 pushing money back into the prison to help those guys. 2625 02:12:03.640 --> 02:12:08.800 It's not like you knowsm and you know War all 2626 02:12:08.840 --> 02:12:12.039 these other you know, white nationalists. It's not about that. 2627 02:12:12.119 --> 02:12:15.560 It's they're all based on an ideology based on religion. 2628 02:12:16.439 --> 02:12:19.640 They ain't Brethren is not based on like Christian religion. 2629 02:12:19.880 --> 02:12:22.600 It's not based on that at all. So it's based 2630 02:12:22.640 --> 02:12:25.000 on white is right. It's our group of guys. We 2631 02:12:25.079 --> 02:12:28.800 do we do, we hold the power. Right. So when 2632 02:12:28.880 --> 02:12:33.239 David made that statement to them, it kind of changed everything. 2633 02:12:33.319 --> 02:12:36.680 From the Lake, these guys are like, hey, these guys 2634 02:12:36.720 --> 02:12:40.359 are good, you know. And then and then the Cleveland 2635 02:12:40.479 --> 02:12:43.600 chapter we started to get rubs with because they saw 2636 02:12:43.760 --> 02:12:47.119 power shifting dynamic where a lot of the other puppet clubs, 2637 02:12:47.119 --> 02:12:49.920 the smaller support clubs were looking to us, and we 2638 02:12:49.920 --> 02:12:51.800 were real good about that. We go to the events, 2639 02:12:52.119 --> 02:12:55.560 we pony up a bunch of money, we're buying loyalty. Right, 2640 02:12:55.600 --> 02:12:57.159 I'll tell you a quick story. So they used to 2641 02:12:57.199 --> 02:13:02.920 have these officer meetings, right, and so there had been 2642 02:13:02.960 --> 02:13:05.000 some friction with us in a couple of clubs, and 2643 02:13:05.239 --> 02:13:08.439 especially with the Hell's Angels, and it was coming to 2644 02:13:08.520 --> 02:13:13.039 a head. So we're riding to the Earth Dogs was 2645 02:13:13.039 --> 02:13:14.920 the name of his club. They got a real small clubhouse. 2646 02:13:14.920 --> 02:13:16.520 But we're going to go over to the Bourne Free. 2647 02:13:16.520 --> 02:13:18.439 Now they were a single chapter club, but they had 2648 02:13:18.439 --> 02:13:20.880 a lot of members, like forty members, and we had 2649 02:13:20.920 --> 02:13:22.680 become pretty tight with this guy, so we were going 2650 02:13:22.760 --> 02:13:25.439 to go over to their clubhouse first in and ride over together. Well, 2651 02:13:25.439 --> 02:13:27.479 while we're riding over there, there was four of us. 2652 02:13:29.119 --> 02:13:31.399 There was yeah, there was four of us. Well there's 2653 02:13:31.439 --> 02:13:33.079 a pack coming towards us. So I'm like, well, who 2654 02:13:33.119 --> 02:13:36.039 the fuck is that? Well it was the Hell's Angels. 2655 02:13:36.079 --> 02:13:38.119 They had like eight members and like two or three 2656 02:13:38.159 --> 02:13:41.439 prospects are like, something's fucked up. That ain't right. They 2657 02:13:41.560 --> 02:13:43.840 never bring that many people to these days. So we 2658 02:13:44.000 --> 02:13:46.239 get over to the to the Born Free clubhouse and 2659 02:13:46.279 --> 02:13:48.119 we walk in and two tall as the president, a 2660 02:13:48.279 --> 02:13:50.439 nice guy, and we had become friends with some of 2661 02:13:50.439 --> 02:13:53.000 their real good friends with some of their guys, and 2662 02:13:53.039 --> 02:13:56.119 too Tall goes, somebody's fixing to get fucked up, and 2663 02:13:56.199 --> 02:13:59.439 were like us. He goes, he goes, that's the way 2664 02:13:59.479 --> 02:14:01.000 it looks. He goes, dude, he goes, I don't know that. 2665 02:14:01.079 --> 02:14:03.159 He goes, the Hell's Angels got rep with you guys, 2666 02:14:03.560 --> 02:14:05.640 and I go over what He goes, Well, the swordsmen 2667 02:14:05.680 --> 02:14:08.560 were saying, you guys were in their territory selling dope. 2668 02:14:08.600 --> 02:14:10.199 I go, we don't even go over there. What the 2669 02:14:10.199 --> 02:14:12.920 fuck are they talking about? That is a puppet club 2670 02:14:12.960 --> 02:14:16.600 for them, you know, for the Angels. So we're getting 2671 02:14:16.600 --> 02:14:18.880 ready to leave, but this is how much Loyd tvse 2672 02:14:18.920 --> 02:14:22.399 guys had for us. They go, look, if you want, 2673 02:14:22.840 --> 02:14:25.800 they go, we'll invite the Hell's Angels back to our clubhouse. 2674 02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:28.560 And he goes, We'll hide in the closets with shotguns 2675 02:14:28.600 --> 02:14:30.760 and shit, and when they come in, we'll kill them all. 2676 02:14:31.520 --> 02:14:34.119 We're like, all right, fucking sounds like a good plan, 2677 02:14:34.359 --> 02:14:36.520 because at this point it's self preservation. If that's what 2678 02:14:36.600 --> 02:14:38.800 it comes back to, that's what it comes down there. 2679 02:14:38.800 --> 02:14:40.279 I'll give a shit, you know what I mean. I 2680 02:14:40.279 --> 02:14:42.920 want to go home and see my family. Right. So 2681 02:14:43.079 --> 02:14:45.840 we go over to this earth Dog clubhouse and you know, 2682 02:14:46.520 --> 02:14:49.600 we go in and they're you know, reading the Riot 2683 02:14:49.640 --> 02:14:52.439 Act and they're telling they want everybody solid security numbers 2684 02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:54.600 and this and that, so they can start checking everybody, 2685 02:14:54.600 --> 02:14:57.199 but they really wanted to check us. And myself and 2686 02:14:57.239 --> 02:14:59.199 Grammar are in there and we're saying out loud because 2687 02:14:59.199 --> 02:15:01.359 we're just a fighting you know, we're not giving you 2688 02:15:01.399 --> 02:15:05.159 our shit, we're not giving you anything. And there and 2689 02:15:05.199 --> 02:15:07.239 like the other clubs are like it's like being in 2690 02:15:07.279 --> 02:15:09.840 third grade where you bark at the teacher, and the 2691 02:15:09.880 --> 02:15:13.159 other clubs are like looking around, going holy shit. And 2692 02:15:13.199 --> 02:15:16.560 then they're like, and there's not to be any you know, 2693 02:15:16.760 --> 02:15:19.039 shit go down while we're here. So if you got 2694 02:15:19.039 --> 02:15:21.880 a problem in another club, you handle it. So of 2695 02:15:21.920 --> 02:15:25.079 course we did the exact opposite. So when the meeting 2696 02:15:25.079 --> 02:15:28.640 broke up, the president and the swordsman walked out towards 2697 02:15:28.720 --> 02:15:33.760 the was walking towards the uh the bonfire, so we 2698 02:15:33.880 --> 02:15:36.720 scooped him up or like, and we're getting his ass 2699 02:15:36.720 --> 02:15:39.159 about what he's saying. And of course Goose, who's no 2700 02:15:39.199 --> 02:15:40.479 longer in a club, he's a big dude, and a 2701 02:15:40.520 --> 02:15:44.439 couple other guys they're watching us. We're blatant defiance to them, 2702 02:15:45.399 --> 02:15:47.960 and he comes walking over. He will not talk to us, 2703 02:15:48.000 --> 02:15:50.319 and he starts, didn't I tell you to the other guy, 2704 02:15:50.760 --> 02:15:52.960 and the swordsman, didn't I tell you you guys aren't 2705 02:15:52.960 --> 02:15:55.239 supposed to handle aid business. And he's looking at him, 2706 02:15:55.279 --> 02:15:58.119 going like, but they scooped me up right now. In 2707 02:15:58.159 --> 02:15:59.920 the meantime, we didn't know how shit was gonna go. 2708 02:16:00.319 --> 02:16:03.960 So Freddie and I think it was Oz. Those guys 2709 02:16:03.960 --> 02:16:06.000 had got into a position of a crossfire because if 2710 02:16:06.039 --> 02:16:10.479 it broke again, it was it was four against whoever 2711 02:16:10.520 --> 02:16:16.039 wanted to draw their guns, right, So anyway, they bitch 2712 02:16:16.079 --> 02:16:18.760 at them, We get on our motorcycles and we leave. 2713 02:16:19.079 --> 02:16:24.439 Now Oz bolt and grabbing. We're going to meet some 2714 02:16:24.479 --> 02:16:26.600 of the Pagans in Youngstown because they had a deal. 2715 02:16:27.399 --> 02:16:31.520 So Freddie and I go to this truck stop and 2716 02:16:31.560 --> 02:16:34.520 we're gonna grab something to eat, and you know, you 2717 02:16:34.600 --> 02:16:37.799 try not to take stuff personal, but now I took 2718 02:16:37.840 --> 02:16:44.120 this personal. So I called up Willy Bear and I said, Willy, 2719 02:16:44.280 --> 02:16:46.680 I go, what the fuck is Goose's problem? He goes, 2720 02:16:46.719 --> 02:16:48.040 what do you mean? I go, we're just at this, 2721 02:16:48.079 --> 02:16:50.559 Meaning goes, what did he do? I go, he's telling 2722 02:16:50.639 --> 02:16:53.239 us he wants this, he wants that. He goes, well, 2723 02:16:53.280 --> 02:16:55.440 you know, Goose can kind of get like a a stop. 2724 02:16:55.520 --> 02:16:57.959 I go, stop right there, I go do you know 2725 02:16:57.959 --> 02:17:01.719 who the original Guestopo was fucking nazis us. We're the 2726 02:17:01.799 --> 02:17:03.639 gonna stop hop we don't get told what to do. 2727 02:17:04.600 --> 02:17:07.399 I go. And then so Freddy's eating and I'm watching 2728 02:17:07.479 --> 02:17:09.399 him because he's like, where are you going with this? 2729 02:17:09.799 --> 02:17:12.040 I said, I'm gonna tell you something, Willie. I said, 2730 02:17:12.079 --> 02:17:15.280 you motherfuckers want to go, We'll go with you anytime 2731 02:17:15.360 --> 02:17:17.799 you want. I go. You just tell us where and win. 2732 02:17:18.200 --> 02:17:20.600 And he's like, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. 2733 02:17:20.959 --> 02:17:22.959 He goes, we're not looking to fight at two front 2734 02:17:22.959 --> 02:17:25.079 war because this is when they were battling and they 2735 02:17:25.120 --> 02:17:28.000 basically got pushed out of Philadelphia when the Pagans busted 2736 02:17:28.040 --> 02:17:30.600 them out of Philadelphia. He goes, we're not looking to 2737 02:17:30.639 --> 02:17:33.120 fight at to to you know, a two front war 2738 02:17:33.200 --> 02:17:35.559 with you guys. I go, I go, there's not gonna 2739 02:17:35.559 --> 02:17:37.639 be a fight. I go. You guys just won't see 2740 02:17:37.639 --> 02:17:41.399 it coming Willie. And he's like, God damn it, you know. 2741 02:17:41.600 --> 02:17:46.040 And after that, after that, I'm telling you, we tried 2742 02:17:46.079 --> 02:17:49.440 to poke that bear every chance we could get with 2743 02:17:49.520 --> 02:17:52.280 the Hell's Angels, and they would they would get so livid, 2744 02:17:52.680 --> 02:17:55.680 but they would never jump they would never jump at 2745 02:17:55.760 --> 02:17:58.559 us ever, and it's just because not that we were 2746 02:17:58.559 --> 02:18:01.360 a bunch of tough guys, but what would ensue if 2747 02:18:01.360 --> 02:18:04.520 it happened, what they knew would happened, or what they 2748 02:18:04.639 --> 02:18:07.760 believed what would happen. So, you know, so that was 2749 02:18:07.959 --> 02:18:09.879 that was I mean you talked about it was one 2750 02:18:09.879 --> 02:18:11.680 of those times in a club where it was like, man, 2751 02:18:12.280 --> 02:18:16.360 this is where you know you got big dogs, but 2752 02:18:16.520 --> 02:18:19.120 all the other guys are looking at you, going this, 2753 02:18:19.120 --> 02:18:22.280 this could be a problem because this isn't These guys 2754 02:18:22.280 --> 02:18:23.879 that are in the club they don't have a criminal 2755 02:18:23.879 --> 02:18:25.959 record or they're afraid to go back to prison because 2756 02:18:25.959 --> 02:18:29.079 that's their home, right, you know. So it was kind 2757 02:18:29.079 --> 02:18:29.879 of unique in that way. 2758 02:18:29.920 --> 02:18:33.319 So what what what was the tripping point for this 2759 02:18:33.319 --> 02:18:36.360 this investigation that led to you know, you guys closing 2760 02:18:36.399 --> 02:18:37.000 the net on it. 2761 02:18:38.319 --> 02:18:42.959 I had a thumbsucker as an asack. I mean he 2762 02:18:43.120 --> 02:18:46.760 was scared, like denied even having meetings at the USA's 2763 02:18:46.799 --> 02:18:49.120 office with the sack. I don't remember being there. It 2764 02:18:49.239 --> 02:18:52.120 was a fucking Saturday morning. Who comes in on a 2765 02:18:52.159 --> 02:18:54.280 Saturday morning to have a meeting about what we're going 2766 02:18:54.360 --> 02:18:57.639 to do. He wanted to shut that case down from 2767 02:18:57.639 --> 02:19:01.239 the minute because he had no idea. You know, Thank 2768 02:19:01.280 --> 02:19:04.920 God for guys like Steve Martin who were deputy assistant 2769 02:19:04.959 --> 02:19:07.520 directors at the time that were fighting our battles at 2770 02:19:07.520 --> 02:19:11.000 the headquarters level keeping our cases alive. Now, Chris Audowski, 2771 02:19:11.040 --> 02:19:13.479 who was my sack, he was there, but the a 2772 02:19:13.600 --> 02:19:17.879 sack wasn't passing the information up and down, so you know, 2773 02:19:18.719 --> 02:19:22.159 so what ended up happened. The biggest thing that happened 2774 02:19:22.159 --> 02:19:24.000 that shut it down was because, like I said, we 2775 02:19:24.000 --> 02:19:28.360 were getting into some scenarios with you know, with the 2776 02:19:28.479 --> 02:19:31.239 I could tell you countless stories about shit that happened 2777 02:19:31.239 --> 02:19:34.360 with the Pagans. It almost became a big problem. But 2778 02:19:34.399 --> 02:19:38.159 the big tipping point was I get a call from 2779 02:19:38.200 --> 02:19:41.479 Willly Beard at like ten in the morning. This guy 2780 02:19:41.680 --> 02:19:44.159 never was up at that time. He was a nocturnal animal, 2781 02:19:44.319 --> 02:19:46.680 you know what I mean. He goes, I got to 2782 02:19:46.719 --> 02:19:49.760 meet you. I go, okay, I go. When he goes 2783 02:19:49.799 --> 02:19:51.399 as soon as you can, I go, wait, I go, 2784 02:19:51.639 --> 02:19:53.440 he goes, when could you meet me? I go, give 2785 02:19:53.440 --> 02:19:56.479 me an hour, and he goes, and then he goes. 2786 02:19:56.520 --> 02:19:59.280 He goes, and I have my car swept. I go, okay, 2787 02:20:00.239 --> 02:20:03.000 So I know there's a problem. So I go where 2788 02:20:03.000 --> 02:20:04.120 we're going to meet. He goes, meet me up at 2789 02:20:04.159 --> 02:20:07.399 the McDonald's. I go, okay, I go, we're going anywhere? 2790 02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:10.719 He goes no. I'm like, so, I had two guys 2791 02:20:10.719 --> 02:20:12.040 that were at the house with me. I said, look, 2792 02:20:12.079 --> 02:20:14.120 I got to go meet Billy. I have no idea 2793 02:20:14.559 --> 02:20:16.280 what this is about. I go, but I need you 2794 02:20:16.319 --> 02:20:17.559 to go up there and just cover me because I 2795 02:20:17.600 --> 02:20:19.479 don't know what's going on. Willie and I had a 2796 02:20:19.520 --> 02:20:25.239 pretty damn good relationship. So I pulled into McDonald's. He's 2797 02:20:25.280 --> 02:20:26.879 in there. He goes, come, well, let's get my car. 2798 02:20:27.719 --> 02:20:30.600 So I go sit in his car and I'm waiting 2799 02:20:30.600 --> 02:20:32.399 for him to put it in drive because I ain't 2800 02:20:32.399 --> 02:20:35.600 going anywhere with them. I'm going to stop that. And 2801 02:20:35.680 --> 02:20:38.280 he pulls out this envelope. Then he hands it to 2802 02:20:38.319 --> 02:20:40.399 me and I'm looking at it. He goes in. It's 2803 02:20:40.399 --> 02:20:44.680 addressed to Hell's Angels, you know Lakey's chapter. He goes, 2804 02:20:44.760 --> 02:20:47.959 open it up and tell me what you think. So 2805 02:20:48.000 --> 02:20:52.000 I open up. I pull out this letter and I'm 2806 02:20:52.040 --> 02:20:54.559 looking at and what it is is a picture of 2807 02:20:54.680 --> 02:20:57.920 Jeff Grabman when he was a warlock. And Derek has 2808 02:20:57.959 --> 02:21:00.479 lost you when he was a warlock. The Idea identified 2809 02:21:00.559 --> 02:21:04.760 Jeff correctly, they and they identified Derek Kazlowski is another 2810 02:21:04.760 --> 02:21:09.879 agent who we call Bailey, right, but Jeff had slimmed down. 2811 02:21:09.920 --> 02:21:12.440 He really didn't look as much like that, and he's 2812 02:21:12.680 --> 02:21:16.520 I'm looking at it. Of course, my ass is puckered 2813 02:21:16.600 --> 02:21:18.079 and I'm kind of just looking. He goes, do you 2814 02:21:18.120 --> 02:21:21.360 know those guys? I go, no, he goes, because they 2815 02:21:21.399 --> 02:21:24.520 identify I go these guys ain't in my club. He goes, 2816 02:21:25.399 --> 02:21:27.399 they're not. I go, no, I don't know who the 2817 02:21:27.399 --> 02:21:30.000 fuck these guys are Willie. I go, what's going on here? 2818 02:21:30.319 --> 02:21:32.239 He goes, Well, we got mailed this and in Cleveland 2819 02:21:32.319 --> 02:21:36.520 got mailed this letter. Identify you guys. He goes, We've 2820 02:21:36.559 --> 02:21:39.440 been having meetings. He goes. We don't believe those are 2821 02:21:39.479 --> 02:21:43.959 your guys either. He goes, However, somebody might be trying 2822 02:21:43.959 --> 02:21:45.680 to get in your club and infiltrate you guys. You 2823 02:21:45.719 --> 02:21:49.840 need to be careful. I'm like, holy shit. Okay. So 2824 02:21:49.879 --> 02:21:52.719 I'm like okay, So I grabbed the letter. I go 2825 02:21:52.840 --> 02:21:55.040 back to the house and that's another one of these 2826 02:21:55.079 --> 02:21:59.520 son of bitch. So I call, well, we were going 2827 02:21:59.559 --> 02:22:01.799 to try to get around it, but the two state 2828 02:22:02.000 --> 02:22:04.719 police guys that we had that were working with us 2829 02:22:04.760 --> 02:22:07.680 from Pennsylvania, then they went right to their captain and 2830 02:22:07.719 --> 02:22:10.040 it was like, because we know they're going to talk 2831 02:22:10.079 --> 02:22:12.239 to our people and there's still coming back from that, 2832 02:22:12.319 --> 02:22:14.760 we thought we could salvage it, really because they weren't 2833 02:22:15.159 --> 02:22:18.399 actually accusing us of anything, right, right, and we weren't 2834 02:22:18.440 --> 02:22:22.520 really doing business with them because at this point we 2835 02:22:22.600 --> 02:22:25.680 had got really tight with the Pagans and we went 2836 02:22:25.760 --> 02:22:28.399 to a wedding, so all this was happening at the 2837 02:22:28.399 --> 02:22:31.600 same time. So we went to a Pagan wedding wedding 2838 02:22:31.639 --> 02:22:33.760 for one of the Pagan members, and we didn't wear 2839 02:22:33.760 --> 02:22:35.600 our colors or anything like that. And they had been 2840 02:22:35.639 --> 02:22:37.840 talking to us because they were talking about us flipping 2841 02:22:37.920 --> 02:22:40.920 patches and becoming Pagans. The Hell's Angels wanted us to 2842 02:22:41.159 --> 02:22:44.360 become a prospect club for them. Up in Erie, We're like, no, no, no, 2843 02:22:44.360 --> 02:22:47.840 no no, because we like our own thing. So we 2844 02:22:47.879 --> 02:22:51.600 go to this wedding. In about an hour into the wedding, 2845 02:22:52.399 --> 02:22:54.200 Blucky who was the guy getting married, and he goes, hey, 2846 02:22:54.440 --> 02:22:56.120 there's some guys in the back want to see you. 2847 02:22:56.159 --> 02:23:00.959 Guys like okay, but only you're officers can come. So 2848 02:23:01.000 --> 02:23:02.879 it was me, Dan and Jeff. We go back there. 2849 02:23:03.319 --> 02:23:05.840 There's ten Pagans sitting back there, three of which are 2850 02:23:05.840 --> 02:23:09.040 Mother Club members, which are there that's their pinnacle. There's 2851 02:23:09.079 --> 02:23:12.280 thirteen of them that run the entire club, and then 2852 02:23:12.280 --> 02:23:14.520 there's the rest of them that are there. And we're 2853 02:23:14.520 --> 02:23:17.840 sitting there going all right, and they're like, Okay, who 2854 02:23:17.879 --> 02:23:20.120 are you guys? They go, we know your brotherhood, but 2855 02:23:20.159 --> 02:23:22.000 what do you want? What do you want with us? 2856 02:23:22.079 --> 02:23:25.079 And I'm like, we want to do business with you guys. 2857 02:23:26.319 --> 02:23:29.840 And then Pokey, who's dead now, who was a pegan. 2858 02:23:29.879 --> 02:23:33.319 This guy he was a Puerto Rican who had a 2859 02:23:33.319 --> 02:23:37.239 swastika on his arm, right, and so we were doing 2860 02:23:37.319 --> 02:23:39.879 drug deals with him. Is like, and one of the 2861 02:23:39.879 --> 02:23:41.840 guys said, Pokey, why do you have a swastik on 2862 02:23:41.879 --> 02:23:44.639 your arm? You're Puerto Rican? He goes, that's so, that's 2863 02:23:44.639 --> 02:23:48.680 so my daughters don't date any of those black guys. 2864 02:23:49.799 --> 02:23:53.280 That's a fucked up philosophy, dude, I mean, you know. Anyway, 2865 02:23:53.799 --> 02:23:55.520 but he's in there and he starts chirping. He goes, 2866 02:23:55.520 --> 02:23:58.639 those guys got Ohio and Pennsylvania tabs. The mother club 2867 02:23:58.680 --> 02:24:02.440 member said, shut up, shut up. We don't care about 2868 02:24:02.440 --> 02:24:06.200 that because they thought of us as a cash cow. 2869 02:24:06.239 --> 02:24:08.440 We could get, you know, how, we can start making 2870 02:24:08.479 --> 02:24:10.799 some money. So we talked to them guys for about 2871 02:24:10.799 --> 02:24:13.239 thirty forty minutes, and at the end this is what said. 2872 02:24:13.280 --> 02:24:15.479 They said, we're going to take your pictures. We're gonna 2873 02:24:15.479 --> 02:24:17.959 pass around see if anybody knows you, and then we 2874 02:24:18.000 --> 02:24:20.399 want to know who's in your club. Well we are. 2875 02:24:20.680 --> 02:24:23.520 We had so many informants that were ab guys that 2876 02:24:23.559 --> 02:24:26.079 were either in the prison or out. We could have 2877 02:24:26.120 --> 02:24:28.559 give them a list of fifty guys because they didn't 2878 02:24:28.600 --> 02:24:32.120 know how many we had. They really didn't, and truly 2879 02:24:32.239 --> 02:24:35.600 violent guys that would have been like holy shit. But 2880 02:24:36.680 --> 02:24:44.079 because the outing with that picture, that was my asack 2881 02:24:44.200 --> 02:24:47.120 was driving it downhill, driving it downhill. This is the 2882 02:24:47.159 --> 02:24:49.239 point in the investigation where we wanted to get because 2883 02:24:49.280 --> 02:24:51.600 now we'd have free reign to roll through Pagan territory 2884 02:24:51.639 --> 02:24:54.639 to deal with whoever we wanted with their blessing, you know, 2885 02:24:54.840 --> 02:24:57.760 with their blessing. And then my Asack comes out of 2886 02:24:57.840 --> 02:25:00.440 nowhere it says, you guys got to end. You got 2887 02:25:00.440 --> 02:25:03.319 two weeks to get out. It's like fucking two weeks. Wow, 2888 02:25:03.600 --> 02:25:07.479 So we had to contrive this big plan that I 2889 02:25:07.559 --> 02:25:10.159 had a brain aneurysm and died while I was down 2890 02:25:10.200 --> 02:25:13.159 in Florida see my baby's mama. And of course those 2891 02:25:13.200 --> 02:25:14.600 guys are all a lot of guys who want to 2892 02:25:14.639 --> 02:25:16.879 go to Florida for fegoes. Now they cremated them already. 2893 02:25:17.040 --> 02:25:19.879 Well then of course we had a running affidavit and everything. 2894 02:25:19.920 --> 02:25:22.639 So what we ended up doing is, you know, we 2895 02:25:22.760 --> 02:25:25.360 ended up you know, taking everybody down. I think we 2896 02:25:25.399 --> 02:25:28.639 got like maybe sixty eighty people. We had. We had 2897 02:25:28.719 --> 02:25:31.159 FFLs that were selling guns to us off like, we 2898 02:25:31.680 --> 02:25:34.040 bring females in there and they would put their information 2899 02:25:34.120 --> 02:25:35.920 and we pay them and they buy the guns for us. 2900 02:25:36.159 --> 02:25:38.360 We had a bunch of unique things in there. But 2901 02:25:38.360 --> 02:25:40.360 but the thing is is we did We had we 2902 02:25:40.399 --> 02:25:42.639 had twenty undercovers running at one time. We had four 2903 02:25:42.680 --> 02:25:45.719 females in that you know, we're either our girlfriends or 2904 02:25:45.760 --> 02:25:48.200 running mules. We had guys that were living in three 2905 02:25:48.200 --> 02:25:51.920 different areas. I mean, it was expansive. I mean, it 2906 02:25:52.000 --> 02:25:55.760 could have went way much for ATF was getting fearful 2907 02:25:56.040 --> 02:25:59.079 that it was growing too big beyond their control, which 2908 02:25:59.399 --> 02:26:02.040 it wasn't a problem I mean, you know, all they 2909 02:26:02.040 --> 02:26:04.120 had to do was bring in some more people to 2910 02:26:04.239 --> 02:26:07.719 facilitate it because we were reaching out and touching everybody. 2911 02:26:08.280 --> 02:26:13.319 You know. Uh, you know David Snow, this guy, for 2912 02:26:13.360 --> 02:26:16.280 all his quirkiness, he got it that his own people 2913 02:26:16.319 --> 02:26:21.440 were messed up. You know. So David he wanted to 2914 02:26:21.440 --> 02:26:23.479 sleep over the house one night, and he would you know, 2915 02:26:23.520 --> 02:26:25.319 guys would stay over our house every now and again. 2916 02:26:25.719 --> 02:26:27.440 So I go, David, we don't got to bed. I 2917 02:26:27.440 --> 02:26:29.000 go with the couch. Goes, I don't even bet. He goes, 2918 02:26:29.000 --> 02:26:31.719 you got a sheet? We go, yeah, you got a sheet. 2919 02:26:31.920 --> 02:26:34.520 So he makes this prison bed on the floor and 2920 02:26:34.520 --> 02:26:36.879 we give him a pillow. I got to get up 2921 02:26:36.879 --> 02:26:38.639 in the middle of the ank of the bathroom. I'm 2922 02:26:38.680 --> 02:26:41.959 taking a piss. It's like four o'clock in the morning. 2923 02:26:42.920 --> 02:26:45.719 And I opened the door. And it was because we 2924 02:26:45.760 --> 02:26:48.079 always used to joke that he's going to kill us 2925 02:26:48.120 --> 02:26:49.760 all in the middle of our sleep. And I opened 2926 02:26:49.799 --> 02:26:53.200 the door and he is right there. I bought shit 2927 02:26:53.239 --> 02:26:55.280 in my path. I go, David, can I help you? 2928 02:26:55.360 --> 02:26:58.000 He goes, I got to take a shower like a 2929 02:26:58.120 --> 02:27:00.000 David is four, He goes, I just need to take shot. 2930 02:27:00.559 --> 02:27:02.959 You have a towel. The only thing that was hanging 2931 02:27:03.479 --> 02:27:07.239 on the towel bar was a washcloth. I said, David, 2932 02:27:07.239 --> 02:27:08.760 this is all I got. He goes, that'll do, brother, 2933 02:27:08.840 --> 02:27:12.879 that'll do. I didn't sleep the rest of the night. Yeah, 2934 02:27:12.920 --> 02:27:17.239 But then David and I got a good understanding. You know. 2935 02:27:17.360 --> 02:27:20.200 He eventually wanted to come to our chapter. Like David was, 2936 02:27:20.280 --> 02:27:23.520 he had sense we had an issue with one of 2937 02:27:23.520 --> 02:27:25.920 the guys could come up with this concocit story and 2938 02:27:25.920 --> 02:27:28.719 it didn't sit well with them, right, So we had 2939 02:27:28.719 --> 02:27:30.920 a meeting in the house. So they brought up their 2940 02:27:31.040 --> 02:27:32.840 five guys and it was like six or seven of 2941 02:27:32.879 --> 02:27:35.520 us sitting in the house. Now it's fall but it's hot. 2942 02:27:36.159 --> 02:27:39.520 They all show up. They're all wearing jackets, hands in 2943 02:27:39.559 --> 02:27:42.120 pockets and all guys all got guns on right. Comes in. 2944 02:27:42.200 --> 02:27:47.520 It's contentious, and Paulie, who's the security officer, starts going 2945 02:27:47.559 --> 02:27:51.200 off like like, well, JB comes in. Anybody who's got guns, 2946 02:27:51.360 --> 02:27:53.079 We got to put him on the table over there. 2947 02:27:53.159 --> 02:27:55.319 We got to put them on the table. And so 2948 02:27:55.639 --> 02:27:57.959 we're like, we don't have any guns, which everybody knew 2949 02:27:58.000 --> 02:28:01.520 we had guns, right, So Paullie, now I didn't tell 2950 02:28:01.520 --> 02:28:03.040 you this, But when I was doing a brother's case 2951 02:28:03.120 --> 02:28:05.639 up an achron, Paulie hung around the brothers an akron. 2952 02:28:05.799 --> 02:28:09.399 I knew him. I knew he never he never recognized me. 2953 02:28:11.040 --> 02:28:13.680 So he was the security eye. This is a guy 2954 02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:16.920 he was constantly on the internet scouring for stuff. So 2955 02:28:17.000 --> 02:28:20.559 he comes in and he starts, listen, I was an Akron. 2956 02:28:20.719 --> 02:28:22.959 He goes, there was these two atf guys. They come 2957 02:28:23.000 --> 02:28:25.280 in and they took down all these clubs. And I'm 2958 02:28:25.280 --> 02:28:27.719 sitting there and everybody knew. And you could see everybody 2959 02:28:27.799 --> 02:28:29.600 kind of edging up, kind of moving their hands towards 2960 02:28:29.639 --> 02:28:33.319 their guns, our guys because they're sitting there. And he goes, 2961 02:28:33.840 --> 02:28:36.000 and he goes. He turns around to me and he goes, 2962 02:28:36.280 --> 02:28:38.319 and that's and he points at me, and I'm like, 2963 02:28:38.360 --> 02:28:40.559 here we fucking go. We're gonna have a slaughter right 2964 02:28:40.559 --> 02:28:43.120 in his house. And he goes and that's why. And 2965 02:28:43.200 --> 02:28:45.680 at that point I lost my mind. I jumped up. 2966 02:28:45.680 --> 02:28:48.799 I said, Paulie, shit the fuck down. I go, you 2967 02:28:49.079 --> 02:28:52.959 are fucking conspiracy theorist, you cashhole, blah blah blah. And 2968 02:28:53.000 --> 02:28:56.239 I start railing on it right and we ended that, 2969 02:28:56.600 --> 02:28:59.399 and then so I'm legitimately pissed. I go, we could 2970 02:28:59.399 --> 02:29:01.920 all just and I you know, so I go and 2971 02:29:01.959 --> 02:29:03.879 I grabbed this old chair and I'm sitting out on 2972 02:29:03.920 --> 02:29:06.159 the path on the driveway looking out over the lake 2973 02:29:07.000 --> 02:29:10.399 and David comes out. He goes, Junkyard, but if I 2974 02:29:10.399 --> 02:29:12.239 sit out with you, I go, no, come on, David. 2975 02:29:12.520 --> 02:29:16.799 So he pulls the chair. He goes jack Gyard. He goes, 2976 02:29:16.840 --> 02:29:18.799 I like, how you guys do your business? He goes, 2977 02:29:18.879 --> 02:29:21.120 I want to now at this point, we'd already bought 2978 02:29:21.120 --> 02:29:22.879 a gun and too off David. He goes. He goes, 2979 02:29:22.920 --> 02:29:25.440 I think I'm gonna transfer your chapter. He goes, I 2980 02:29:25.520 --> 02:29:26.920 like how you got? He goes, I'm dealing with a 2981 02:29:26.959 --> 02:29:29.239 bunch of idiots over here and we're and I'm just 2982 02:29:29.239 --> 02:29:30.959 sitting there. I go, David, I go, I'm still pissed 2983 02:29:31.040 --> 02:29:34.000 right now, I go, you guys come up here, we're guns, Like, 2984 02:29:34.120 --> 02:29:38.079 what are you gonna kill us over something stupid? He goes, No, 2985 02:29:38.280 --> 02:29:40.200 that was all JB trying to be I go that. 2986 02:29:40.440 --> 02:29:42.799 I go, dude, that ain't fine. He goes, I'm in 2987 02:29:42.879 --> 02:29:44.959 and all this right now, He goes, I'm done with 2988 02:29:45.040 --> 02:29:47.680 this bullshit. He goes. He goes, we are going to 2989 02:29:47.719 --> 02:29:49.840 be the power in this chapter. And see all this 2990 02:29:50.000 --> 02:29:52.559 was kind of going along, and I mean we had 2991 02:29:52.600 --> 02:29:56.239 reached you know, we had another guy. His name was 2992 02:29:56.319 --> 02:29:59.520 wild Bill Millsaps. Right, well, this is after JB got 2993 02:29:59.520 --> 02:30:01.120 outed and we are going to bring some other guys in. 2994 02:30:01.399 --> 02:30:03.760 This guy had been in jail for armed robbery a 2995 02:30:03.760 --> 02:30:07.479 couple times, right, So he gets out and they're going 2996 02:30:07.559 --> 02:30:09.280 to bring him in. So we're at the strip club 2997 02:30:10.840 --> 02:30:13.840 and we're just talking about expanding, and I just threw 2998 02:30:13.840 --> 02:30:17.040 it out there. I said, well, Bill, you wouldn't happen 2999 02:30:17.040 --> 02:30:19.879 to have any guns for sale, would you. He goes, fuck, yeah, 3000 02:30:19.920 --> 02:30:22.799 I got guns. I go, well, can we get him? 3001 02:30:23.120 --> 02:30:26.159 He goes, when you want to get him? I go tonight. 3002 02:30:26.239 --> 02:30:27.680 So I had to send one of the guys back 3003 02:30:27.680 --> 02:30:29.760 to the office, which was about forty minutes away, to 3004 02:30:29.840 --> 02:30:32.520 raid the vault to get every penny we had. So 3005 02:30:32.559 --> 02:30:36.360 we go. So I'm riding his truck and he's drunk 3006 02:30:36.600 --> 02:30:38.920 and he's searching all over for his revolver that he 3007 02:30:38.959 --> 02:30:41.120 can't find while we're driving and the other guys are 3008 02:30:41.159 --> 02:30:44.200 following us. So we pull up to this pretty nice 3009 02:30:44.200 --> 02:30:45.920 house and I'm like, there is no way this dude 3010 02:30:45.959 --> 02:30:49.120 lives here, so we get out. We go into this 3011 02:30:49.200 --> 02:30:52.280 house and his dad, older guy sitting in a chair 3012 02:30:52.360 --> 02:30:56.360 watching TV, goes because, hey Bill, He goes, hey dad, 3013 02:30:56.479 --> 02:30:58.239 He goes, your mom's going to be home in about 3014 02:30:58.239 --> 02:30:59.600 a half fire. He goos, you need to get the 3015 02:30:59.600 --> 02:31:03.319 hell out of here, because he knows. So we go 3016 02:31:03.399 --> 02:31:06.959 upstairs into this bedroom and he's got guns everywhere. Right. 3017 02:31:07.120 --> 02:31:08.559 He goes, well, how many one? I go, I'll take 3018 02:31:08.600 --> 02:31:11.000 them all. I go, give me a good deal. I go, 3019 02:31:11.079 --> 02:31:12.479 you got something I can carry him out in? So 3020 02:31:12.520 --> 02:31:14.959 he gives me in this green like army duffel bag, 3021 02:31:15.040 --> 02:31:18.280 and I got rifles and pistols and shotguns and whatever 3022 02:31:18.520 --> 02:31:22.559 revolvers in there, probably about ten fifteen guns. We hear 3023 02:31:22.600 --> 02:31:28.719 the door open to the house. It's his mom, June Cleaver. 3024 02:31:29.479 --> 02:31:31.639 She comes in. She goes, hi, honey. He goes hi, honey. 3025 02:31:32.000 --> 02:31:36.200 She goes, Bill's here. She fields up the steps. Hey Bill, 3026 02:31:37.360 --> 02:31:39.799 He goes Abby down. Bill goes Abbie down. In a minute, Mom, 3027 02:31:40.040 --> 02:31:46.760 Now again, we're pretty. We're not young, but we're old enough. 3028 02:31:46.959 --> 02:31:51.200 I felt like I was five, because here we are. 3029 02:31:51.440 --> 02:31:53.760 We got our k not to cuts on. I got 3030 02:31:53.760 --> 02:31:56.479 this big bag of guns. We're walking down the steps 3031 02:31:56.959 --> 02:32:02.360 and his mom goes, boys and we don't even I 3032 02:32:02.520 --> 02:32:04.719 missus wild Bill, that's all we could call them. Yeah, 3033 02:32:05.040 --> 02:32:06.840 he goes, would you guys like something to eat? I 3034 02:32:06.879 --> 02:32:10.559 have some cookies, but we're going what the hell? None 3035 02:32:10.600 --> 02:32:13.079 of us? It was. It was just the funniest shit 3036 02:32:13.200 --> 02:32:15.520 I've ever seen in my life, you know, as far 3037 02:32:15.600 --> 02:32:17.559 as there were a lot of stupid things that happened 3038 02:32:17.559 --> 02:32:19.959 in these cases, but you know, some of those things 3039 02:32:20.000 --> 02:32:22.559 you could just you know, these guys are just out there, 3040 02:32:22.719 --> 02:32:24.559 and he was one of those guys. We're going to 3041 02:32:24.600 --> 02:32:26.559 open a chapter an acrid he goes, Are We're going 3042 02:32:26.639 --> 02:32:28.000 to kill every one of these times? I mean it 3043 02:32:28.159 --> 02:32:30.079 was always kill, kill, kill. You know. We had to 3044 02:32:30.120 --> 02:32:33.280 temper that kind of stuff. Yeah, because obviously that'd be 3045 02:32:33.319 --> 02:32:34.000 a problem. 3046 02:32:34.280 --> 02:32:36.399 Do do we have any questions for Frank? 3047 02:32:36.760 --> 02:32:39.319 Yeah, I would get it. I want to ask you 3048 02:32:40.120 --> 02:32:41.239 when we get to these questions. 3049 02:32:41.280 --> 02:32:43.440 I want to ask you a question because you mentioned 3050 02:32:43.520 --> 02:32:48.079 earlier like the cop motorcycle clubs and the military medicine clubs, 3051 02:32:48.079 --> 02:32:51.360 and generally those clubs are made up of veterans or 3052 02:32:51.440 --> 02:32:55.000 cops who like to ride, and generally, like the one 3053 02:32:55.040 --> 02:32:58.399 percenters don't tend to fuck with them because they're just 3054 02:32:58.440 --> 02:33:01.040 doing their thing. They're not gonna not impeding on their 3055 02:33:01.159 --> 02:33:02.319 territory in terms of like. 3056 02:33:02.559 --> 02:33:03.360 Drugs and stuff. 3057 02:33:03.559 --> 02:33:06.920 But right, but you do have those people in those 3058 02:33:06.959 --> 02:33:11.200 clubs who for whatever reason idealize the one percenters and 3059 02:33:11.280 --> 02:33:15.000 want to get closer. Like how how would you manage 3060 02:33:15.200 --> 02:33:18.239 or did you have to manage that when members of 3061 02:33:18.280 --> 02:33:22.639 these cop clubs or military clubs would want to get 3062 02:33:22.680 --> 02:33:24.239 closer to the one percenters. 3063 02:33:24.920 --> 02:33:27.000 Well, a lot of times, especially with the cop clubs, 3064 02:33:27.200 --> 02:33:29.799 the one percenter clubs didn't want anything to do with them. Yeah, 3065 02:33:29.840 --> 02:33:32.399 you know, they would try to force themselves in, and 3066 02:33:32.399 --> 02:33:34.959 then every time there was an altercation or something would happen, 3067 02:33:35.440 --> 02:33:37.799 these cop clubs would pull out, I'm a cop now, 3068 02:33:37.959 --> 02:33:39.719 now I'm a cop, right I want to be, and 3069 02:33:39.719 --> 02:33:42.040 then they would fall back on the badge, right right right, 3070 02:33:42.879 --> 02:33:45.239 you know. So so that was so, that was all 3071 02:33:45.319 --> 02:33:47.280 And they're not all bad, but the ones that choose 3072 02:33:47.280 --> 02:33:49.319 to want to affiliate and go to the one percenter 3073 02:33:49.399 --> 02:33:51.920 houses and do all that, there's no reason for you 3074 02:33:51.959 --> 02:33:54.280 to do that. We still don't understand why is cops 3075 02:33:54.319 --> 02:33:56.719 you even have to have a patch. Your badge is 3076 02:33:56.760 --> 02:33:58.959 your patch. You mightn't have to put it, you know, 3077 02:33:59.239 --> 02:34:01.959 but that's what they choose to do. But you know 3078 02:34:02.040 --> 02:34:05.920 this has happened in court where you know cop clubs. 3079 02:34:06.239 --> 02:34:08.879 You know they get in and they emulate the one 3080 02:34:08.879 --> 02:34:12.799 percenter clubs, three piece patch and meetings, mandatory runs, and 3081 02:34:12.840 --> 02:34:14.760 you know this has happened where they put these people 3082 02:34:14.840 --> 02:34:17.680 on to testify in court. But what's the difference between 3083 02:34:17.680 --> 02:34:20.000 what you do and what the one percenter clubs do? 3084 02:34:20.479 --> 02:34:22.840 And there really is no difference. And the same thing 3085 02:34:22.920 --> 02:34:25.680 when you get to the military clubs, they're again they're 3086 02:34:25.680 --> 02:34:28.520 not all bad, but you know what the Special Forces 3087 02:34:28.600 --> 02:34:31.159 is a big recruiting ground. Are people who have who 3088 02:34:31.280 --> 02:34:34.120 have special Now I will tell you, like Jeremy Sheets 3089 02:34:34.159 --> 02:34:37.600 and ATIF headquarters Mike Will those two guys were probably 3090 02:34:37.879 --> 02:34:41.520 the two biggest supporters of the motorcycle cases throughout you 3091 02:34:41.520 --> 02:34:44.360 know the time we've been doing them. But now they 3092 02:34:44.479 --> 02:34:50.559 published law enforcement military first responders in out on motorcycle games. 3093 02:34:50.799 --> 02:34:54.000 Those guys are constantly going out and briefing commands special 3094 02:34:54.000 --> 02:34:58.440 mission units as well, and they're pulling people's clearances because 3095 02:34:58.479 --> 02:35:01.799 of their affiliation. So you know, these guys. A lot 3096 02:35:01.799 --> 02:35:04.280 of these guys got high level access. A lot of 3097 02:35:04.280 --> 02:35:06.559 these guys are doing a lot of training, and they're 3098 02:35:06.600 --> 02:35:10.280 recruiting these dudes into these clubs, you know, and then 3099 02:35:10.319 --> 02:35:12.639 they're committing violence that are getting jacked up after a 3100 02:35:13.040 --> 02:35:16.280 great year. Are a great service to the United States, 3101 02:35:16.479 --> 02:35:18.799 you know, being in a military. They're getting hooked up 3102 02:35:18.799 --> 02:35:21.319 with these these guys and they're screwed themselves up. 3103 02:35:21.559 --> 02:35:26.000 Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. H mc tyre, thank you very 3104 02:35:26.040 --> 02:35:29.559 much for the very generous donation. Can you please explain 3105 02:35:29.600 --> 02:35:32.399 why ATF isn't allowed by law to have a database 3106 02:35:32.440 --> 02:35:35.399 to track guns and has to resort to a paper database. 3107 02:35:37.000 --> 02:35:40.239 Okay, so everybody thinks that ATF has this national database 3108 02:35:40.280 --> 02:35:43.639 on guns. What ATF has is so if it's an 3109 02:35:43.719 --> 02:35:46.239 NFA weapon, you know, like a Title two type of 3110 02:35:46.239 --> 02:35:50.479 weapon machine guns silence or short bailed shotgun, shortbailt rifle, 3111 02:35:50.840 --> 02:35:53.000 those obviously you have to pay a tax stamp and 3112 02:35:53.000 --> 02:35:57.239 those are registered right specialty weapon ATF. The only database 3113 02:35:57.280 --> 02:36:01.120 ATF keeps and maintains is a multiple sales base. Okay, 3114 02:36:01.200 --> 02:36:04.280 So what that means is if you buy two guns, 3115 02:36:04.399 --> 02:36:07.280 two or more guns at one time, not long guns, 3116 02:36:07.479 --> 02:36:13.120 but handguns. Okay, that gets reported. Now they change it 3117 02:36:13.159 --> 02:36:16.239 on a south southwest border did to include long guns 3118 02:36:16.280 --> 02:36:18.479 because all the stuff that was going across bast and 3119 02:36:18.559 --> 02:36:22.200 furious and all that BS. Right, But the database is 3120 02:36:22.280 --> 02:36:26.000 basically multiple sales. So what that is is for straw purchases. 3121 02:36:26.360 --> 02:36:29.120 So you got people who are going out and they're 3122 02:36:29.159 --> 02:36:32.520 buying guns for somebody else. Right, they get reported. We 3123 02:36:32.559 --> 02:36:35.360 go back and we say okay, and people say, well, 3124 02:36:35.360 --> 02:36:38.040 you don't have to tell them if you have the guns, No, 3125 02:36:38.079 --> 02:36:39.799 you don't have to tell them. But most lawful people, 3126 02:36:39.799 --> 02:36:41.239 if I come knock on your door and go why 3127 02:36:41.239 --> 02:36:46.879 did you buy you know, four garbage guns, name one taskels, 3128 02:36:47.079 --> 02:36:49.239 pick up some garbage gun, it's like a ninety nine 3129 02:36:49.319 --> 02:36:51.799 hundred dollars gun. Why did you buy five of them? 3130 02:36:51.879 --> 02:36:54.600 Can you explain to me why? And then normally they'll 3131 02:36:54.600 --> 02:36:58.239 come up with the well, they either stolen something happened 3132 02:36:58.239 --> 02:36:59.639 to them. I don't know what happened to them, and 3133 02:36:59.639 --> 02:37:01.479 they're and up with other parts of the state. Are 3134 02:37:01.520 --> 02:37:04.079 their gun crimes? So and what else you're used for 3135 02:37:04.200 --> 02:37:08.079 is like investigative leads. If you buy you have people 3136 02:37:08.239 --> 02:37:11.680 go out and buy multiple guns at multiple stores over 3137 02:37:11.719 --> 02:37:13.760 the course of a day, a week, a month, right, 3138 02:37:13.959 --> 02:37:17.159 and then their traffic outward you know, to other places. 3139 02:37:17.479 --> 02:37:20.319 So and what else it's for we use it for 3140 02:37:20.479 --> 02:37:23.319 is like if we're doing search warrants, and or if 3141 02:37:23.360 --> 02:37:25.600 you're going to a house. If I go into the 3142 02:37:25.680 --> 02:37:29.479 database and I see, well this house has you know, 3143 02:37:29.719 --> 02:37:32.079 if it's a search warrant, well they you know, this 3144 02:37:32.159 --> 02:37:36.719 house has been on the on the like five times. 3145 02:37:37.040 --> 02:37:39.680 There have been multiple sales reported to your house. What's 3146 02:37:39.719 --> 02:37:43.719 going on there? Right? So there's no central database like 3147 02:37:43.959 --> 02:37:47.319 the tracks every gun you own, the eight the FFLs 3148 02:37:47.639 --> 02:37:50.760 only have one obligation when it comes to multiple sales, 3149 02:37:51.079 --> 02:37:53.319 and that's to report that when you buy two or 3150 02:37:53.319 --> 02:37:56.840 more handguns at one time. Okay, so that that's what 3151 02:37:56.879 --> 02:37:59.920 that's about. So it's you know, that's a big misnomber 3152 02:38:00.200 --> 02:38:02.159 that did everybody? Ye know, I'll tell you something else 3153 02:38:02.200 --> 02:38:05.000 about these FFLs. I because I used to go out 3154 02:38:05.040 --> 02:38:08.440 to our farm's technology branch and Martin Furt all the time. 3155 02:38:08.840 --> 02:38:11.840 You know, everybody thinks it's ATF that's jacket them, that's 3156 02:38:11.920 --> 02:38:14.600 jacking them. Well, let me tell you something. They were 3157 02:38:14.639 --> 02:38:19.000 selling those shotguns on those ar and Ak platforms, you 3158 02:38:19.040 --> 02:38:22.200 know with the magazines. I saw it for like two 3159 02:38:22.280 --> 02:38:24.959 hundred dollars one time, and then like two weeks later, 3160 02:38:25.239 --> 02:38:27.520 I was at a gun show in Virginia over in 3161 02:38:27.600 --> 02:38:30.040 Norfolkerry and they were up to like five hundred, and 3162 02:38:30.079 --> 02:38:32.319 I just, yeah, I didn't tell the guy who I was. 3163 02:38:32.360 --> 02:38:34.360 I'm just having to go why he's gotten so expensive? Though? 3164 02:38:34.520 --> 02:38:36.959 He goes, Oh, ATF's getting ready to ban him. ATF's 3165 02:38:36.959 --> 02:38:40.440 getting ready to ban him. I go in hearing, so 3166 02:38:40.479 --> 02:38:43.079 I called John Spencer, who's in charge of our firem's 3167 02:38:43.079 --> 02:38:46.760 technology branch, the guys who make these decisions, and I go, John, 3168 02:38:46.879 --> 02:38:49.360 are these guys guns get He goes, No, he goes, 3169 02:38:49.559 --> 02:38:51.760 All the FFLs are putting that out because they're driving 3170 02:38:51.799 --> 02:38:55.440 a cost up. So everybody thinks that it's ATF screwing 3171 02:38:55.479 --> 02:38:58.680 with them. It's not a lot of these FFLs or 3172 02:38:58.799 --> 02:39:04.559 they self, you know, propose these these these hikes and 3173 02:39:04.600 --> 02:39:06.879 all this and these shortages so they can and not 3174 02:39:06.959 --> 02:39:10.200 all Again, there's a lot of good quality FFL's out there, 3175 02:39:10.239 --> 02:39:11.959 but if there's money to be made at the behest 3176 02:39:12.000 --> 02:39:14.520 of the people thinking something's going to go offline, then 3177 02:39:14.520 --> 02:39:15.159 they'll do it. 3178 02:39:15.280 --> 02:39:18.639 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were talking. You were talking about 3179 02:39:18.920 --> 02:39:21.120 the whole bumps. I think it was the bumpstocks, right like, 3180 02:39:21.319 --> 02:39:25.399 because we were talking about bump stock those braces, yeahs, the braces, 3181 02:39:25.479 --> 02:39:26.760 not bumpstocks, but braces. 3182 02:39:27.200 --> 02:39:30.600 But well let me, well, let me take you about ATF. ATF. 3183 02:39:31.120 --> 02:39:33.559 You know, hey, I love that agency. It you know, 3184 02:39:33.680 --> 02:39:35.200 it gave me a career. It gave me a life, 3185 02:39:35.319 --> 02:39:38.079 you know, gave me. It afforded me a lot of opportunity. However, 3186 02:39:38.879 --> 02:39:43.319 ATF is a political football because between that and it's 3187 02:39:43.319 --> 02:39:47.239 not really the alcohol and the tobacco, but with the firearms, 3188 02:39:47.440 --> 02:39:51.079 the arson, the explosives, abortion clinic investigating all that stuff 3189 02:39:51.120 --> 02:39:54.000 falls under the peer review of ATF. Right, So for 3190 02:39:54.120 --> 02:39:57.959 years the NRA was battling and it still battles with ATF. 3191 02:39:58.239 --> 02:40:00.840 When I came on in nineteen eighty nine, ATF had 3192 02:40:00.840 --> 02:40:05.000 twenty five hundred agents. DEA had twenty five hundred agents. Today, 3193 02:40:06.000 --> 02:40:09.120 DEA has over five thousand agents. ATF still has twenty 3194 02:40:09.120 --> 02:40:12.920 five hundred agents. They don't want ATF to get any bigger. 3195 02:40:13.000 --> 02:40:15.319 And when you talk about gun violence, like ATF is 3196 02:40:15.319 --> 02:40:18.920 going to go in and solve these problems in Chicago, Memphis. 3197 02:40:19.200 --> 02:40:21.520 They can't. They don't have enough people. All they can 3198 02:40:21.559 --> 02:40:24.040 go in and tell you, hey, look, here's how we 3199 02:40:24.079 --> 02:40:27.200 can help you. But those are state and local problems 3200 02:40:27.239 --> 02:40:29.280 where they have to have the manpower to address it. 3201 02:40:29.600 --> 02:40:32.879 ATF can't go in there. They don't have ATF should 3202 02:40:32.879 --> 02:40:35.239 have five thousand agents if they want to be effective. 3203 02:40:35.559 --> 02:40:40.680 They just Congress will not NRA's big money. Congress will 3204 02:40:40.719 --> 02:40:43.319 just knock it off. The buney to expand ATF. And 3205 02:40:43.319 --> 02:40:46.200 then the other thing about ATF is, you know, when 3206 02:40:46.200 --> 02:40:49.280 we were under Treasury, it was rock and roll because 3207 02:40:50.559 --> 02:40:53.360 we could we could do what we wanted under the 3208 02:40:53.399 --> 02:40:55.799 purview of Treasury, and they backed us. Once we went 3209 02:40:55.879 --> 02:40:59.559 under DJ we became the redheaded step child to FBI 3210 02:40:59.559 --> 02:41:04.319 and DEA Right, who were third in line. So and 3211 02:41:05.440 --> 02:41:08.239 we've been run by US attorneys, which that doesn't mean, 3212 02:41:08.399 --> 02:41:11.760 it doesn't mean anything bad, but their attorneys, attorneys are 3213 02:41:11.879 --> 02:41:14.879 risk adverse, they look at liability. They're not run by 3214 02:41:14.959 --> 02:41:19.600 law enforcement official. Okay, DETL. Bock, I know him from Clety. 3215 02:41:19.600 --> 02:41:24.680 He's a great guy. But the thing is is ATF 3216 02:41:24.799 --> 02:41:28.639 is caught in this web of not being allowed to expand, 3217 02:41:28.639 --> 02:41:30.840 to do what actually needs to be done. They do 3218 02:41:30.920 --> 02:41:33.399 what Congress tells them because they don't have enough boom 3219 02:41:33.520 --> 02:41:36.040 to push back. If you told the FBI, hey, we're 3220 02:41:36.040 --> 02:41:37.959 going to electric cars, and you guys got to get 3221 02:41:38.000 --> 02:41:40.559 on board the ATF or FBI would tell them kiss 3222 02:41:40.559 --> 02:41:44.600 their ass. Atf we would park all our gas cars 3223 02:41:44.600 --> 02:41:47.479 and we'd be riding electric cars. Because they don't want 3224 02:41:47.520 --> 02:41:49.959 to get sideways with Congress because they're always fearful that 3225 02:41:50.000 --> 02:41:52.159 the budget's going to get cut or something's going to 3226 02:41:52.200 --> 02:41:54.760 get happened. There's a lot of good leadership, but there's 3227 02:41:54.799 --> 02:41:56.360 also a lot of people that just don't want to 3228 02:41:56.399 --> 02:41:58.520 stand up and take the fight. And that's how it 3229 02:41:58.680 --> 02:42:01.879 was throughout a lot of He's undercover operations. Throughout you 3230 02:42:01.920 --> 02:42:04.000 had a few guys that came up through the ranks 3231 02:42:04.040 --> 02:42:09.399 like Steve Martin, Carlos Canino, Charlie Smith. You know, those 3232 02:42:09.440 --> 02:42:11.760 guys made it up there. Those guys knew what it 3233 02:42:11.799 --> 02:42:13.239 was like to be on the ground and go up. 3234 02:42:13.520 --> 02:42:15.360 Then you got a bunch of guys that just promoted 3235 02:42:15.440 --> 02:42:18.600 up through that. Not on my watch. I don't want 3236 02:42:18.639 --> 02:42:20.440 any black marks by my name because I got to 3237 02:42:20.440 --> 02:42:22.559 get to the next level. And when you lose the 3238 02:42:22.600 --> 02:42:26.200 confidence that you right now you talk to all the 3239 02:42:26.239 --> 02:42:28.680 guys that are out in the field, there's no safety net. 3240 02:42:28.920 --> 02:42:32.079 There's no safety net, and that's and that's how they're operating. 3241 02:42:32.360 --> 02:42:35.120 It used to be a very proactive agency. Now it's 3242 02:42:35.120 --> 02:42:38.840 becoming more reactive agency, but so is most of law enforcement. 3243 02:42:39.040 --> 02:42:43.239 Yeah, mac tire, thank you again for another very general's donation. 3244 02:42:43.959 --> 02:42:46.799 How much of Hunter Thompson's book do you feel as 3245 02:42:46.879 --> 02:42:49.239 accurate the Hell's Angels book? 3246 02:42:50.319 --> 02:42:54.639 Whose book I dress? Thompson? I don't know if I 3247 02:42:54.680 --> 02:42:55.319 read that book. 3248 02:42:55.440 --> 02:43:02.719 Okay, yeah, mctyre, thank you very much. What do you 3249 02:43:02.760 --> 02:43:05.239 know about the Booze Fighters outlaw club. They seem to 3250 02:43:05.319 --> 02:43:07.479 draw a lot of active military and vets into their group. 3251 02:43:07.760 --> 02:43:09.719 They used to have a clubhouse in Oknawa, Japan. 3252 02:43:10.799 --> 02:43:13.360 You know the Booze Fighters are. You know, they're I 3253 02:43:13.639 --> 02:43:16.360 think they're the oldest club. But they go by their 3254 02:43:16.440 --> 02:43:20.520 alphabet and you know, you never really saw those guys 3255 02:43:21.000 --> 02:43:24.280 get too criminal. I mean, most of them are. You know, 3256 02:43:24.319 --> 02:43:25.760 they got a lot of cops, they got a lot 3257 02:43:25.760 --> 02:43:30.079 of veterans. You know, it's more of a social riding club. 3258 02:43:30.200 --> 02:43:33.959 I would say it's not I wouldn't you know, to 3259 02:43:34.040 --> 02:43:37.000 classify them as an outlaw motorcycle gang only maybe because 3260 02:43:37.040 --> 02:43:39.479 they wear a three piece patch and they subscribe to 3261 02:43:39.559 --> 02:43:41.879 they but they're not. They're not in it like the 3262 02:43:41.920 --> 02:43:44.360 rest of them are. I mean, they will associate and affiliate, 3263 02:43:44.479 --> 02:43:46.719 but not to the degree that some of the other 3264 02:43:46.760 --> 02:43:47.200 clubs do. 3265 02:43:47.520 --> 02:43:51.280 Yeah, it was fastest. Thank you very much for it's 3266 02:43:51.360 --> 02:43:51.959 just a sticker. 3267 02:43:52.040 --> 02:43:54.280 Thank you. And then a couple of questions on Patreon. 3268 02:43:54.879 --> 02:43:58.520 Oh, did your knowledge at tobacco from the ATF assist 3269 02:43:58.680 --> 02:44:00.000 and starting your cigar company? 3270 02:44:00.079 --> 02:44:07.639 Me? And how well, No, Uh, my cigar company, it 3271 02:44:07.760 --> 02:44:09.879 kind of started because I like to smoke cigars, so, 3272 02:44:10.479 --> 02:44:13.159 you know, in working in the government and still working 3273 02:44:13.159 --> 02:44:15.520 in it, you know, contracting out, it was like sometimes 3274 02:44:15.520 --> 02:44:17.120 you just want to get away from all that do 3275 02:44:17.200 --> 02:44:21.319 something different. I started smoking smoking cigars years ago. Uh no, 3276 02:44:21.399 --> 02:44:25.600 my not ATF has nothing to do with my business, 3277 02:44:25.639 --> 02:44:28.600 thank lord. And you know it's all state regulated and 3278 02:44:28.639 --> 02:44:31.000 I don't have to deal with the people in any way, 3279 02:44:31.040 --> 02:44:34.239 shape or form, because, uh, you know, if I was 3280 02:44:34.280 --> 02:44:36.159 doing cigarettes, it might be a little something different, but 3281 02:44:36.239 --> 02:44:37.000 not with cigars. 3282 02:44:38.040 --> 02:44:40.079 What what is your cigar company? Let people know where 3283 02:44:40.120 --> 02:44:42.239 they can find it. 3284 02:44:42.239 --> 02:44:46.159 It's Black River Tobacco Company. You could find us online 3285 02:44:46.200 --> 02:44:50.000 at w w W Black Rivertobacco dot com. Uh, we 3286 02:44:50.040 --> 02:44:52.399 don't sell cigars online yet, we have a bunch of 3287 02:44:52.559 --> 02:44:56.040 you know, gear that we sell. If you're interested in 3288 02:44:56.079 --> 02:44:59.200 buying cigars, Uh, you can call us and we'll ship 3289 02:44:59.239 --> 02:45:01.559 them to you. I have to send you what our 3290 02:45:01.559 --> 02:45:05.760 inventory is because I'm telling you, our country man, they 3291 02:45:06.120 --> 02:45:08.319 don't want the banks don't want to take tobacco money. 3292 02:45:08.319 --> 02:45:11.159 They don't have anything to do with cigars and cigarettes anymore. 3293 02:45:11.399 --> 02:45:13.280 It's tough to find a uh you know, a bank 3294 02:45:13.319 --> 02:45:14.079 that will take the money. 3295 02:45:14.120 --> 02:45:16.040 And sounds like it sounds like Marxism to me. 3296 02:45:17.159 --> 02:45:20.360 Yes, it's terrible, it is. I'm telling you can't even 3297 02:45:20.399 --> 02:45:21.799 you can't even have advice anymore. 3298 02:45:21.840 --> 02:45:22.639 It's ridiculous. 3299 02:45:26.799 --> 02:45:31.399 How does an undercover agent deal with initiation challenges for gangs? 3300 02:45:31.399 --> 02:45:35.959 When it comes to a legal activity, you know, a 3301 02:45:36.000 --> 02:45:39.239 lot the most illegal activity that they're going to have 3302 02:45:39.280 --> 02:45:41.280 you do. Like I said, the one where we did 3303 02:45:41.280 --> 02:45:43.760 the home envision was an anomaly. Most of it has 3304 02:45:43.760 --> 02:45:46.760 to do with fighting, you know, or mud check. You know, 3305 02:45:47.079 --> 02:45:50.520 it's you know, like I said, the drugs. You know, 3306 02:45:50.840 --> 02:45:55.280 we've we've learned how to subvert that and get around that. 3307 02:45:55.639 --> 02:45:58.040 But most of it, I mean, they're not going to say, 3308 02:45:58.040 --> 02:45:59.840 here's a gun, going there and rob somebody, you know, 3309 02:46:00.040 --> 02:46:02.239 go in there and rob a store. A lot of 3310 02:46:02.280 --> 02:46:05.760 it is based on, you know, who your sponsor is, 3311 02:46:06.040 --> 02:46:08.280 what they feel of you, because you'll see some prospects 3312 02:46:08.280 --> 02:46:11.360 that you're treated like dirt, and then on the other side, 3313 02:46:11.399 --> 02:46:13.760 you'll see some prospects that they feel might bring something 3314 02:46:13.799 --> 02:46:16.079 to the club, like the old school peeing on the 3315 02:46:16.120 --> 02:46:20.639 colors and pooping on the colors and pouring No clubs 3316 02:46:20.680 --> 02:46:23.559 respect their colors. Now you know, they don't do that. 3317 02:46:23.639 --> 02:46:25.479 The only club that's like that, really, the only one 3318 02:46:25.520 --> 02:46:27.440 percent of club that's truly like that and is still 3319 02:46:27.440 --> 02:46:29.879 the Pagans. They still run like they're in the seventies. 3320 02:46:29.879 --> 02:46:32.239 I'll give them that. But everybody else, man, you know, 3321 02:46:32.280 --> 02:46:34.280 they have one two sets of colors. They have their 3322 02:46:34.360 --> 02:46:37.520 dress colors, they have their daily colors. It's it's it's 3323 02:46:37.520 --> 02:46:42.200 a whole different world, you know, a whole different world. 3324 02:46:42.520 --> 02:46:45.840 What effect, if any, did sons of anarchy have on 3325 02:46:45.959 --> 02:46:49.319 outlaw monictyle gangs and law enforcement efforts to investigate them. 3326 02:46:49.440 --> 02:46:52.920 Did they give away any trade secrets of note, you know. 3327 02:46:53.000 --> 02:46:55.559 I I you know what was funny about that series 3328 02:46:55.600 --> 02:46:58.280 is ATF was always portrayed as assholes in that series, 3329 02:46:58.440 --> 02:47:00.760 which we all got a good laugh at because, you know, 3330 02:47:01.000 --> 02:47:03.040 at first, I think the first couple of seasons, the 3331 02:47:03.120 --> 02:47:05.520 vogos were the ones that were giving them their h 3332 02:47:05.959 --> 02:47:09.920 what you call it, their expertise or whatever. And then 3333 02:47:10.000 --> 02:47:12.239 after that then the Hell's Angels took it over. That's 3334 02:47:12.239 --> 02:47:14.959 where every time anything related to ATF was brought in, 3335 02:47:15.000 --> 02:47:17.079 it was always brought in in a bad light. But 3336 02:47:17.559 --> 02:47:19.879 Sons are anarchy. For the first couple of years it 3337 02:47:19.959 --> 02:47:22.079 was it was pretty spot on with a lot of 3338 02:47:22.120 --> 02:47:24.360 the stuff that they talked about, you know, who were 3339 02:47:24.399 --> 02:47:27.719 giving them their advice, who who were directing them. Then 3340 02:47:27.719 --> 02:47:30.399 they kind of got way out of control, and you know, 3341 02:47:30.520 --> 02:47:35.479 because you know, it's TV. You know, nothing in real 3342 02:47:35.520 --> 02:47:37.600 life is ever as sexy as it is TV. There 3343 02:47:37.639 --> 02:47:41.159 are some things that happened in some craziness, but it's 3344 02:47:41.159 --> 02:47:45.000 nothing like sens ronic Sons of Anarchy at all. Yeah, 3345 02:47:45.200 --> 02:47:47.879 I don't think it impacted any any investigations. It was 3346 02:47:47.920 --> 02:47:49.959 on while other investigations were going on. 3347 02:47:50.079 --> 02:47:53.040 You know, and then what is your opinion of how 3348 02:47:53.040 --> 02:47:56.159 the investigation and prosecution and the wacout Twin Peak shootout 3349 02:47:56.200 --> 02:47:58.760 was conducted at both the state and federal level. 3350 02:47:58.920 --> 02:48:00.639 Do we have the whole story or is there still 3351 02:48:00.639 --> 02:48:05.280 more to trickle out someday. You know, that case, you know, 3352 02:48:05.399 --> 02:48:07.760 I had a good butte Deren kase Laski went testified 3353 02:48:07.799 --> 02:48:10.319 down on that. I mean the fact that you know, 3354 02:48:10.479 --> 02:48:14.600 I mean, I think there were some according to the 3355 02:48:14.639 --> 02:48:17.040 guys that I talked to that were involved in that investigation, 3356 02:48:17.440 --> 02:48:19.920 and it testified there were some balls that were dropped. 3357 02:48:19.920 --> 02:48:21.399 There were people that should have been charged. I mean, 3358 02:48:21.399 --> 02:48:23.120 if you watch the video, I mean, you know, it 3359 02:48:23.120 --> 02:48:26.000 could only be so much self defense. But no, the 3360 02:48:26.040 --> 02:48:28.840 stories out there there there wasn't anything that was being hidden. 3361 02:48:29.200 --> 02:48:31.719 It was just in the way that they prosecuted the case. 3362 02:48:32.680 --> 02:48:36.680 It wasn't it didn't bring h you know, a good 3363 02:48:36.760 --> 02:48:40.600 a good end result. Yeah. 3364 02:48:41.000 --> 02:48:45.760 I just you know, you know, you've talked about these 3365 02:48:45.799 --> 02:48:50.840 really big cases with these you know, with these bad actors, 3366 02:48:51.000 --> 02:48:53.559 very bad actors, and you know, there are gonna be 3367 02:48:53.639 --> 02:48:57.200 people who comment later on about ATF and you know, 3368 02:48:57.520 --> 02:49:00.799 the issues whether it's the EA A T have, you know, 3369 02:49:00.879 --> 02:49:08.440 FEDS what is your response to people who who talk 3370 02:49:08.680 --> 02:49:10.680 about like the federal, like if we were to talk 3371 02:49:10.719 --> 02:49:14.360 about Ruby Ridge or whatever, you know, like when people 3372 02:49:14.399 --> 02:49:17.600 because people are obviously gonna comment on this about the 3373 02:49:17.600 --> 02:49:21.000 ATF going after the everyman, not that you know, not 3374 02:49:21.120 --> 02:49:26.000 that Ruby Ridge was the ever man, but like, what 3375 02:49:26.079 --> 02:49:30.840 would you say to people who are critical of organizations? 3376 02:49:31.760 --> 02:49:33.680 So here's the deal. I can only speak for the 3377 02:49:33.680 --> 02:49:37.040 guys that I that I know, uh uh, and that 3378 02:49:37.120 --> 02:49:42.440 I respect. In law enforcement, you go after people who 3379 02:49:42.479 --> 02:49:45.440 are doing truly evil, bad things. Right. If they're not, 3380 02:49:45.719 --> 02:49:48.959 you let them go. I can tell you I never 3381 02:49:49.040 --> 02:49:52.479 took it personal when you look at you know who 3382 02:49:52.520 --> 02:49:56.440 you're targeting because they've either presented themselves in such a 3383 02:49:56.440 --> 02:49:59.959 manner that they're doing something wrong. You know, everybody talks 3384 02:50:00.040 --> 02:50:02.639 about ATF. You know the gun law. We don't write 3385 02:50:02.639 --> 02:50:05.120 the gun laws. Congress rights the gun law. If you 3386 02:50:05.159 --> 02:50:07.280 don't like the laws, go to your congressman, go to 3387 02:50:07.319 --> 02:50:10.399 your senator and get them changed. We only enforce them. 3388 02:50:10.440 --> 02:50:12.959 So if you're supposed to have a gun, have all 3389 02:50:13.000 --> 02:50:15.239 you can. If you're not supposed to have a gun, 3390 02:50:15.360 --> 02:50:17.239 don't get caught, because if you get caught, you're going 3391 02:50:17.280 --> 02:50:20.639 to prison. So I mean it's like anything with the drugs. 3392 02:50:20.639 --> 02:50:23.479 I mean, whatever they do. So you know, you can 3393 02:50:23.520 --> 02:50:28.479 disparage law enforcement, you can dispair you know. You know, 3394 02:50:28.520 --> 02:50:32.680 there's always allegations of entrapment. There's always you know this 3395 02:50:32.719 --> 02:50:34.840 and that, and we're like go to court show where 3396 02:50:34.879 --> 02:50:37.440 we're in trapp Because that's why I can tell you 3397 02:50:37.440 --> 02:50:43.879 the guys that do, especially the infiltrations, Jay Dobbins, Mark, 3398 02:50:43.920 --> 02:50:49.440 Denis Derrekkslowski, you know myself. You got Blake, I mean 3399 02:50:49.559 --> 02:50:54.399 Blake Bowler, Darryl. I mean there's countless guys, right, Billy Queen, 3400 02:50:56.079 --> 02:50:58.719 those guys. You know, people think because you're an undercovery 3401 02:50:58.799 --> 02:51:02.079 or jackass, right, they think, oh, it's all funny games 3402 02:51:02.120 --> 02:51:05.319 and you're out there drinking a cowboys. Yeah, you know, 3403 02:51:05.479 --> 02:51:07.360 and even in our own agency, it's like all the 3404 02:51:07.360 --> 02:51:09.440 skeleton needs to come out of the closet, dusted off, 3405 02:51:09.520 --> 02:51:11.159 let it go, do the thing and get back in 3406 02:51:11.239 --> 02:51:13.440 the closet. I had my sack told me one time 3407 02:51:13.479 --> 02:51:17.040 he goes, Frank, all those tattoos he goes, you know, 3408 02:51:17.479 --> 02:51:20.000 what will people think? I said, well, let me ask 3409 02:51:20.000 --> 02:51:23.040 you something, Chris. And this was Chris ad ASKI, I said, Chris, 3410 02:51:23.680 --> 02:51:26.920 I said, do you pay me for what I look like? 3411 02:51:27.760 --> 02:51:30.200 He goes, no. I go, I can wear long sleeves 3412 02:51:30.239 --> 02:51:32.200 like you do because you're a suit. I go, I 3413 02:51:32.200 --> 02:51:34.760 don't aspire to be you and be a suit. I go. 3414 02:51:34.879 --> 02:51:37.440 Let me ask you another question. I go, would you 3415 02:51:37.559 --> 02:51:41.680 rather me be administratively sound or operationally sound? And he 3416 02:51:41.760 --> 02:51:45.239 goes operationally. I go into my point. I go, all 3417 02:51:45.239 --> 02:51:47.920 that other bullshit is administrative. You can't die from that. 3418 02:51:48.120 --> 02:51:52.520 I go, So all the guys that did I know 3419 02:51:52.639 --> 02:51:56.559 that did these type of cases, you know, and there's 3420 02:51:56.639 --> 02:52:00.040 countless there. I'm missing people. I mean, Steve mart you 3421 02:52:00.159 --> 02:52:02.559 have to be You have to know how to process everything. 3422 02:52:02.600 --> 02:52:05.159 It wasn't until the mid two thousands where you were 3423 02:52:05.239 --> 02:52:09.000 processing your own evidence, writing all your own reports, doing 3424 02:52:09.040 --> 02:52:13.000 all of your electronic surveillance tapes, downloading them, transcribing them. 3425 02:52:13.239 --> 02:52:16.239 I mean, you have to know something about the game. 3426 02:52:16.440 --> 02:52:21.399 And like I said before, we never put anybody in 3427 02:52:21.520 --> 02:52:24.079 jail who didn't deserve to be there. In fact, like 3428 02:52:24.120 --> 02:52:26.559 I said, sometimes we would try to steer them away 3429 02:52:26.600 --> 02:52:30.239 from the activity that they wanted to do. But because 3430 02:52:30.280 --> 02:52:32.920 of the sexiness of being involved in a criminal organization 3431 02:52:33.159 --> 02:52:36.840 run first all that goes along with that entire lifestyle. 3432 02:52:37.040 --> 02:52:40.399 I mean you know that they get involved for that, 3433 02:52:40.639 --> 02:52:42.799 and we try to tell people. You know, even today 3434 02:52:43.079 --> 02:52:45.840 you see guys as well, why are you involved in that? Yeah? 3435 02:52:45.879 --> 02:52:47.479 You know, there's no point. 3436 02:52:47.920 --> 02:52:50.799 Yeah, Frank, this has been one of the most like 3437 02:52:51.000 --> 02:52:53.920 roller coaster ride over the top interviews. 3438 02:52:53.959 --> 02:52:55.600 We have fantastic Yeah, in. 3439 02:52:55.559 --> 02:53:00.719 Two hundred and twenty two episodes, and thank you so much. 3440 02:53:00.760 --> 02:53:03.120 Talk for hours more and if you guys want to 3441 02:53:03.120 --> 02:53:05.440 bring some of the other guys in, there is just 3442 02:53:05.520 --> 02:53:07.920 so much more to talk about. Frank. 3443 02:53:07.959 --> 02:53:10.239 I would love I would love to bring you in 3444 02:53:10.319 --> 02:53:13.559 some of your buddies up here to Brooklyn to do 3445 02:53:13.639 --> 02:53:17.920 another interview. Yeah awesome, and thank thank you so much 3446 02:53:17.920 --> 02:53:19.959 for sharing your experiences with us. 3447 02:53:20.000 --> 02:53:22.520 And and real quick, where can people find you? Again 3448 02:53:22.959 --> 02:53:27.360 about discar, like wherever you're at out in public? 3449 02:53:27.399 --> 02:53:30.639 Where can people find you? Well, they could find us 3450 02:53:30.639 --> 02:53:32.520 through the cigar, But I also have another company called 3451 02:53:32.559 --> 02:53:37.000 Hard Knocks Schoolhouse. It's HK Schoolhouse dot com. You can 3452 02:53:37.040 --> 02:53:40.319 reach me there or you can reach me through the website, uh, 3453 02:53:40.520 --> 02:53:44.360 the Black Rivertobacco dot com. There you go. We got 3454 02:53:44.360 --> 02:53:46.639 social media and whatnot. And you know, I hope people 3455 02:53:46.639 --> 02:53:49.239 aren't going to call, hey, you're an asshole. You and 3456 02:53:49.239 --> 02:53:52.319 I go, you know, hey, I get a lot of 3457 02:53:52.319 --> 02:53:54.680 people don't like, you know, the cops, and they don't 3458 02:53:54.760 --> 02:53:56.280 like a lot of that, and we're used to it. 3459 02:53:56.360 --> 02:53:59.319 So I'm thick skin by now You're not gonna get 3460 02:54:00.120 --> 02:54:03.239 you know, you know, so it is what it is. 3461 02:54:03.559 --> 02:54:03.719 You know. 3462 02:54:04.159 --> 02:54:08.559 Well, Uh, fellas out there. We will be back on Tuesday, 3463 02:54:08.639 --> 02:54:13.159 right d Tuesday with Andy Stump uh Cleared Hot podcast 3464 02:54:13.639 --> 02:54:16.680 former Seal Team six officer I think n c O 3465 02:54:16.760 --> 02:54:22.000 and then officer. Yeah, so we're we're really excited to 3466 02:54:22.000 --> 02:54:25.360 have him on the show on Tuesday. Frank again, man, 3467 02:54:25.399 --> 02:54:27.040 thank you so much for coming on. I know, I 3468 02:54:27.079 --> 02:54:29.239 know we ran way over our time, but it was 3469 02:54:29.639 --> 02:54:31.959 it was it was worth it for us, and we 3470 02:54:32.079 --> 02:54:33.360 definitely want to have you back on. 3471 02:54:33.479 --> 02:54:37.360 We want to have you in studio. Geez. Yeah, yeah, 3472 02:54:37.399 --> 02:54:39.760 well that's okay, I'll come all right, I'll bring some 3473 02:54:39.840 --> 02:54:42.920 guys and some yeah, and we'll have a good time. 3474 02:54:43.159 --> 02:54:44.760 Just let me know we are down for it. 3475 02:54:45.000 --> 02:54:45.559 We'll do it. 3476 02:54:45.600 --> 02:54:49.239 Man. Hey, thanks guys. I really appreciate you having on it. 3477 02:54:49.440 --> 02:54:51.680 I know I'm a different. I'm a different animal from 3478 02:54:51.680 --> 02:54:53.799 what you guys are used to having on and you know, 3479 02:54:55.360 --> 02:54:57.200 it's just my feelin's like, are you really going to 3480 02:54:57.239 --> 02:54:59.360 go on your time? I go what, I don't care, 3481 02:55:00.200 --> 02:55:02.120 it's you know, it is what. 3482 02:55:02.200 --> 02:55:04.479 It is, different animals, same zews. 3483 02:55:04.520 --> 02:55:07.159 I was trying. I mean, it's all great, you know, 3484 02:55:07.319 --> 02:55:08.000 like we love it. 3485 02:55:08.479 --> 02:55:12.399 Look final final comment I've said in the in the past, 3486 02:55:12.479 --> 02:55:15.799 maybe privately, I interview a lot of like people from 3487 02:55:15.840 --> 02:55:19.440 the intelligence community, special operations community, and I always run 3488 02:55:19.520 --> 02:55:22.639 up against, especially doing a public interview like this, like 3489 02:55:23.360 --> 02:55:25.600 I can't really talk about that. But with guys like 3490 02:55:25.680 --> 02:55:28.440 you where your cases have been prosecuted, it's just like 3491 02:55:28.520 --> 02:55:30.959 game on and you can tell the whole story from 3492 02:55:30.959 --> 02:55:33.520 front to back, and it's just it's amazing. 3493 02:55:33.959 --> 02:55:36.760 It is. Well, I'll tell you just one last comment. 3494 02:55:36.840 --> 02:55:39.159 So sure, you know, just in dealing with some of 3495 02:55:39.200 --> 02:55:41.280 the guys that we you know, on the military side, 3496 02:55:41.280 --> 02:55:42.959 that would come to our training and we would go 3497 02:55:42.959 --> 02:55:44.879 to their training, and you know, we we you know, 3498 02:55:45.040 --> 02:55:46.760 got to make a lot of good friends and it 3499 02:55:46.840 --> 02:55:49.680 was always funny because you know, we would sit there 3500 02:55:49.680 --> 02:55:53.239 in awe and listen to their stories, right and and 3501 02:55:53.280 --> 02:55:55.159 they're like, well, it's no big deal. This is what 3502 02:55:55.200 --> 02:55:57.200 we do every day. And then we would tell our 3503 02:55:57.280 --> 02:55:59.360 stories and they would sit there in allgle and holy shit, 3504 02:56:00.280 --> 02:56:04.159 you know, just the mutual respect although the operations are different, 3505 02:56:04.600 --> 02:56:07.920 sacrifices and the hardships are no less and that's and 3506 02:56:07.959 --> 02:56:10.200 that's I think that's where the camaraderie comes with all 3507 02:56:10.239 --> 02:56:13.559 of that. You know, people just you know, and not 3508 02:56:13.639 --> 02:56:17.040 everybody has the same road, but there are a lot 3509 02:56:17.040 --> 02:56:19.680 of different things to go along with traveling the road 3510 02:56:19.719 --> 02:56:22.360 that a lot of us have traveled. Yeah, you know, yeah, 3511 02:56:22.399 --> 02:56:23.600 absolutely hard. 3512 02:56:23.639 --> 02:56:26.159 Absolutely well, we'll stay in touch, man, We'll love to 3513 02:56:26.159 --> 02:56:28.840 do it again. And uh yeah, man again, thank you 3514 02:56:28.879 --> 02:56:31.520 for coming on the show and I spend some of 3515 02:56:31.559 --> 02:56:32.559 your Friday evening with us. 3516 02:56:32.639 --> 02:56:35.280 Yeah, we deeply appreciate it. You're gonna need to get 3517 02:56:35.319 --> 02:56:37.360 bigger cops because none of us are small enough to. 3518 02:56:38.559 --> 02:56:40.559 We got we got several other chairs we can push 3519 02:56:40.639 --> 02:56:40.920 up here. 3520 02:56:41.559 --> 02:56:45.719 Bean bean bags, I was just thinking about. Bean bags 3521 02:56:45.719 --> 02:56:48.920 would be awesome. We'd have to like cut before anybody 3522 02:56:48.920 --> 02:56:50.280 got out, because nobody. 3523 02:56:50.040 --> 02:56:53.319 Wants to see roll it out of it rolling all 3524 02:56:53.399 --> 02:56:56.559 exactly light. 3525 02:56:57.559 --> 02:57:00.559 We'll see yeah, we'll say everyone to thank you, thank 3526 02:57:00.600 --> 02:57:00.920 you friend. 3527 02:57:00.920 --> 02:57:02.200 All right, thanks Avery, Ready to take care.