Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, I just ad libbed the most perfect preface
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Speaker 1: Fyi and now Here is the second part of Keys's
Speaker 1: July twelfth, twenty twelve interview with the FBI. And of
Speaker 1: all the interviews I'm going to play for you during
Speaker 1: our time away, this one will be the most critical
Speaker 1: for season seven of True Crime Bullshit, which premieres October fifth.
Speaker 1: Can't wait to see you then, and if not then
Speaker 1: hopefully before. This is a studio both and production.
Speaker 2: Do you ever get close to being caught doing any
Speaker 2: of those any arsens or anything.
Speaker 3: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover?
Speaker 4: I think I got pretty close with them. It makes
Speaker 4: you think that.
Speaker 5: Actually it was It was that one that that you guys.
Speaker 4: Know about now, that one in New York Tulke. Yeah,
Speaker 4: there was. I was leaving.
Speaker 6: And there was a car that passed me, and I
Speaker 6: knew it was a detective or somebody because they had a.
Speaker 4: They had a visor light or something on some kind
Speaker 4: of light. I knew it was a cop of some kind.
Speaker 6: Anyway, and it wasn't like an official patrol car, but
Speaker 6: I think I.
Speaker 4: Think there were a couple of people in it, and.
Speaker 6: It was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff,
Speaker 6: and kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,
Speaker 6: because this was quite a while after the robbery, I
Speaker 6: was quite a waste from the scene.
Speaker 4: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.
Speaker 6: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better
Speaker 6: pull off the road. And there was a campground, and
Speaker 6: I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of
Speaker 6: backed into some trees and just sat there for a
Speaker 6: while and was counting money.
Speaker 4: And I think I saw the.
Speaker 6: Same car go back the other way, like it might
Speaker 6: have been looking for me. So I don't know if
Speaker 6: they I don't even know if it was the same car.
Speaker 4: It went by really fast, but it looked like it
Speaker 4: could have been the same car fast, like it was
Speaker 4: trying to catch up to you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but
Speaker 6: all the same, I think I sat there for quite
Speaker 6: a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by
Speaker 6: then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was
Speaker 6: gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a
Speaker 6: few days later.
Speaker 4: They that one really freaked him out because it was
Speaker 4: such a small town and they like.
Speaker 6: Locked all the schools and everything, swap teams patrolling.
Speaker 4: The such streets or whatever. But yeah, that was I
Speaker 4: was thinking at the time.
Speaker 6: I was like, I'm just gonna hang out with this campground,
Speaker 6: count money and stuff. And he stops files act like
Speaker 6: I'm fishing, and could you have a fishing with full?
Speaker 4: I think I did on that trip.
Speaker 6: I don't think I had a license though, not for
Speaker 6: you to take that that though, yeah, probably, But.
Speaker 7: Why do you think you were able to uh and
Speaker 7: talking about the practical crimes, why do you think you
Speaker 7: were able to get away with so successfully that it
Speaker 7: sounds like you did a lot of bank rubberies and
Speaker 7: burglaries and.
Speaker 6: Those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered. It's
Speaker 6: too many freaking video cameras new nays.
Speaker 4: So so time's changed.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was easy when all you had to worry
Speaker 6: about was fingerprints and witnesses in DNA.
Speaker 8: That stuff's an't pretty easy, cause you also had depending
Speaker 8: on uh, what you take, Like if you commit a burglary,
Speaker 8: you still have to if it's if it's something, if
Speaker 8: it's not monitor if it's not money you have to
Speaker 8: sell it or get rid of it or those kind
Speaker 8: of things.
Speaker 4: Because you what did you when you were doing burglaries?
Speaker 4: What kind of things did you take them? Houses? Well,
Speaker 4: besides people.
Speaker 6: The most part, it's not like I needed the money.
Speaker 2: So what was the motivation that for the burglaries if
Speaker 2: it wasn't oh, just.
Speaker 4: For old time's sake. Well, you said you get the same.
Speaker 8: They seem so different, but you describe it as kind
Speaker 8: of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries arsens to
Speaker 8: some degree. I mean, they they seem so different and
Speaker 8: far apart, but you seem to get some.
Speaker 6: That's because when I go in to do a burglary,
Speaker 6: I don't go in to do it.
Speaker 4: Like most people do. I I go.
Speaker 8: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping
Speaker 8: there's gonna be people there.
Speaker 6: No, not necessarily, just just knowing that if something happens,
Speaker 6: it's you know, it's like if I ever got caught
Speaker 6: in the act doing anything, and it's I'm not gonna
Speaker 6: go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.
Speaker 4: You know, I always went ready for whatever.
Speaker 2: I just.
Speaker 3: So, what would your motivation be going in? What would
Speaker 3: you be looking for.
Speaker 4: What would you burglaries?
Speaker 6: I usually used jewelry and guns small guns, smallish.
Speaker 4: So some of that are some of the guns that
Speaker 4: you still have in places? Those guns? Or did you
Speaker 4: always get rid of those?
Speaker 3: Mm?
Speaker 4: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was
Speaker 4: worried about them getting uh tracked.
Speaker 8: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them
Speaker 8: with you so that you're not how with them. So
Speaker 8: you might have him in a cash somewhere and then use.
Speaker 4: Them when you act. You the limitations like five or
Speaker 4: seven years or.
Speaker 9: Something like that.
Speaker 4: I don't even know, so you wait, I can't tell
Speaker 4: whether that'supposed to be a joke. You can you get
Speaker 4: charged with that or whether.
Speaker 8: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period
Speaker 8: before you use.
Speaker 4: That makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked.
Speaker 3: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.
Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting
Speaker 2: there and you can watch people and they don't know
Speaker 2: you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglar because
Speaker 2: when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that same.
Speaker 8: Kind So would it be would you would you try
Speaker 8: to do it to where they would didn't even know
Speaker 8: what happened, or make sure they knew it happened, like
Speaker 8: I mean breaking windows and breaking doors to go in
Speaker 8: or get out somehow.
Speaker 4: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.
Speaker 4: I guess more often than not there was usually a
Speaker 4: lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would
Speaker 4: just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all,
Speaker 4: necessarily maybe a few little things.
Speaker 8: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for
Speaker 8: So because a lot of burglers you go into, all
Speaker 8: the drawers are open, all those clothes are on the ground,
Speaker 8: everything's been destroyed.
Speaker 4: Looking. I never did that, so destroyed to destroy.
Speaker 10: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.
Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house and watch people
Speaker 2: or wait and watch people come back to see what
Speaker 2: the reaction would be.
Speaker 4: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.
Speaker 2: And years ago, though, not wait in the house to
Speaker 2: watch for them to come back.
Speaker 4: Not no, not burglaris.
Speaker 10: No, that's getting onto other crimes.
Speaker 3: I'm guessing by that reaction.
Speaker 4: That's yeah.
Speaker 8: I also noticed on some of your on your computers
Speaker 8: and send actually in some of the stuff in your.
Speaker 4: In your vehicle that you have some t different movies
Speaker 4: you get. Do you get ideas from movies or is
Speaker 4: that you just like no ideas movies? Still, my ideas
Speaker 4: should have got some.
Speaker 6: Of them copyrighted kinds, some of those virtu Yeah, there
Speaker 6: was some cheap, low budget slashing. Maybe some guy made it.
Speaker 6: I been there, done that a couple of years ago,
Speaker 6: and I was kind of pissed off with that one cause,
Speaker 6: as far as.
Speaker 4: I know, nobody had thought of that or I'd never
Speaker 4: read about it. Which one team was that I don't
Speaker 4: remember what.
Speaker 6: It was, calling some stupid little bit college kid movie.
Speaker 4: He was all proud of himself because he was using
Speaker 4: cable ties and what do you what do you do?
Speaker 4: In the movie, he uh, strangled this girl with a
Speaker 4: cable tie.
Speaker 3: I thought of that.
Speaker 6: Right after cable ties were invented, or at least those
Speaker 6: big ones.
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Speaker 3: Anything else from movies.
Speaker 6: Movies. Movies are like video games. They're a lot of fun,
Speaker 6: but they're not really not like the real thing.
Speaker 8: I guess I was with Curious System more whether it
Speaker 8: was the movies that gave you ideas or whether everything
Speaker 8: or anything you've done is kind of been your own thoughts.
Speaker 4: And I can't think of any movies that I got. Well,
Speaker 4: there was a book I read years and years ago.
Speaker 6: They gave me a lot of ideas, but I can't
Speaker 6: really blame that because those already doing stuff when I read.
Speaker 4: That book, But it gave you ideas. Yeah, what book
Speaker 4: was that?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 6: It's called Intensity like ding Koons And that was the
Speaker 6: first book I had read that kind of talked about
Speaker 6: things from the other point of view, Like I read
Speaker 6: crime novels all the time, but it's always from the
Speaker 6: detective's point of view. It's never from the bad guy's
Speaker 6: point of view, and it always kissed me off, so.
Speaker 4: That I could never find one attack. So like I
Speaker 4: read that on them.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but you said, but you said you used to
Speaker 8: read cry books, so you've got did you get ideas
Speaker 8: from that?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Nothing specific, I don't think.
Speaker 8: How about from the from studying Bundy and other people
Speaker 8: on things that they did that they they either got.
Speaker 4: Them caught or that you thought was a bad idea
Speaker 4: that you stopped doing or don't do or didn't you
Speaker 4: because of that?
Speaker 6: I yeah, well I got lots of those ideas like
Speaker 6: what not to do from books and movies and true
Speaker 6: crying TV.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no shortage of what not to do if
Speaker 4: I had. Like I said, I've been following my own roles.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like do you know is for Bunny reasons?
Speaker 4: You know enough about him to know where he was
Speaker 4: doing things and those kind of things, you knows? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I know, I yeah, I know. Serial killer is all
Speaker 4: the way back to.
Speaker 2: That.
Speaker 6: My other serial killer hero, I guess not really even
Speaker 6: relevant because he was.
Speaker 4: So long ago, was HH Holmes.
Speaker 6: He was pretty much a genius, but back in his day,
Speaker 6: it was pretty easy to be a genius, cause nobody
Speaker 6: really expected stuff like that back then, so you got
Speaker 6: away with it for.
Speaker 10: A long time, and no technology really to have to outsmart.
Speaker 6: Right back then, you could hire other people to build
Speaker 6: dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, like I wants a dungeon.
Speaker 6: Well, anything I built like that nowadays I kind of
Speaker 6: have to do myself.
Speaker 2: That kind of warrants an obvious follow up question of
Speaker 2: do you have a dungeon?
Speaker 3: Have you ever built anything like that?
Speaker 11: Na?
Speaker 4: No, nothing, Now, however, it something you would have liked
Speaker 4: to have, though, Oh I had plenty of plans for him,
Speaker 4: it's not really the more my retirement plan.
Speaker 2: Your stuff seems to be. The stuff that we know
Speaker 2: about seems to be kind of quick in the sense
Speaker 2: that it happens over a day period of time or
Speaker 2: twelve hour period of time or something like that.
Speaker 10: And again, I've told you weren't gonna get into like
Speaker 10: push it for specifics on a lot of this, on
Speaker 10: this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: But were there crimes? Were you you did keep someone
Speaker 2: for longer than that?
Speaker 4: No? No, it's a few hours.
Speaker 8: Plans too and didn't work out, or just you purposely
Speaker 8: cut it short like that for logistics.
Speaker 4: Reasons and uh, getting caught Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6: I I had plans to you know, it would have been.
Speaker 4: Nice if I coulda done that, but I was never
Speaker 4: set up.
Speaker 6: To do it to where it will. It would have
Speaker 6: been pretty higher risk if I had ever tried to
Speaker 6: do that.
Speaker 2: You joked about the retirement plan. Was that something you
Speaker 2: had thought about trying to figure out a way to
Speaker 2: do that though? Logistically a way to be able to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a lot easier to do it if you're
Speaker 6: a bachelor.
Speaker 4: Mm so it would have been a few years before
Speaker 4: started construction. H was it was it? And I I mean,
Speaker 4: I guess I don't know that any of them. Was
Speaker 4: it easy to.
Speaker 8: Have a relationship with, say Kimberly and still NB or
Speaker 8: did it to become harder or it seems like it
Speaker 8: would be extremely difficult to maintain kind of.
Speaker 10: The two lives that you've talked about.
Speaker 6: Uh, it only got hard at the end, But it
Speaker 6: wasn't the relationship.
Speaker 4: It was you know, everything got harder at the end.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 6: L just lost inter It was like I I simultaneously
Speaker 6: lost interest.
Speaker 4: In a lot of other things and Uh.
Speaker 6: Tried to kick started and get you know, get it back,
Speaker 6: kind of snap myself out of it a few times,
Speaker 6: and then just couldn't maintain anymore.
Speaker 4: So you know, So it was it wasn't like the
Speaker 4: typical relationship breakdown of you. Oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 11: It was. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Do you think over the years.
Speaker 2: Any of any of the people that you were with
Speaker 2: Kimberly or whoever, or Cammy or whoever before, do you
Speaker 2: think any of them had any any ideas.
Speaker 3: About about the other side of you?
Speaker 4: I imagine.
Speaker 6: Twenty twenty hindsight, you might remember some stuff, but I
Speaker 6: don't can't remember any time where where there was any
Speaker 6: question as to what I was or who I was.
Speaker 2: Maybe questions about where you were, but not necessarily there were.
Speaker 6: Some questions about where I had been, but I always,
Speaker 6: like I say, I usually.
Speaker 4: Planned things so that I had I don't know.
Speaker 6: They sounded like good reasons excuses to me, and nobody
Speaker 6: ever really called me on.
Speaker 4: So I don't know.
Speaker 8: And I know at one point in time you told
Speaker 8: us that, uh, Kimberly was oblivious to.
Speaker 4: You know, you use that word, I think, to what
Speaker 4: was going on and stuff.
Speaker 8: Do you think that there was this you know when
Speaker 8: you met her, was there a tonu type about attraction
Speaker 8: like that that you perceived that that that it would
Speaker 8: be an easy relationship to carry on cause she wouldn't
Speaker 8: be suspicious Miss Tammy the same way. I've never I
Speaker 8: don't know, I've never met Tammy. I have the Kimberly,
Speaker 8: but nothing.
Speaker 4: No, there's yeah, there's certain personality types that.
Speaker 6: I would work harder at having a relationship with because
Speaker 6: you know, if they would have, uh like Kimberly for example,
Speaker 6: she has pretty hectic career and her own she's has
Speaker 6: her own social life, and.
Speaker 4: She's, I guess she'd say, like a self contained person.
Speaker 6: So we had a good relationship, but it was easy
Speaker 6: to separate myself from it and uh, go do my
Speaker 6: own thing, and then you know, she would do her
Speaker 6: own thing shot and both of us were always okay
Speaker 6: with that. Whereas you know, some other personality types, you know,
Speaker 6: like once you're together, the it's like everything has to
Speaker 6: be done together, and that.
Speaker 4: Would have made it kind of hard.
Speaker 6: But you know, like with Kimberly and the girlfriend I
Speaker 6: had before her, they they had their own careers and stuff.
Speaker 6: So if I said, well, I'm going to fly stuff
Speaker 6: in such a place and do this and that, and
Speaker 6: they would say okay, and there was never this, well
Speaker 6: I want to come with you.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like they wouldn't do that because they had a job,
Speaker 4: you know. So was there a relationship between Tammy and Kimberly.
Speaker 4: Not really, It's just.
Speaker 6: There was a little bit of drama at one point,
Speaker 6: But no, there wasn't a relationship.
Speaker 8: Is that somebody in Washington? You said, you're asking if
Speaker 8: they knew each other? No, No, I'm asking who it
Speaker 8: is somebody else? Yeah, for a while, who was that?
Speaker 4: Uh? Her name was Denise. She lived in.
Speaker 6: She had a family in Niabay and she lived in
Speaker 6: Kent down by Sea, Tark or something.
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Speaker 3: Did you date a lot?
Speaker 4: Not really. I usually had a girlfriend, but I.
Speaker 2: Didn't you know, were they more kind of just long term,
Speaker 2: long term relationships?
Speaker 3: It wasn't just a lot of short relationships.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean there were periods in between where I
Speaker 6: would date a few people, though.
Speaker 4: For the most part, was you know, longer term the better.
Speaker 3: When did you When did you meet Tammy?
Speaker 11: How long?
Speaker 4: Because I met her when I was an army.
Speaker 3: When you were stationed in Washington.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was. I think I met her
Speaker 4: right after I got back from Egypt.
Speaker 2: So time frame wise, you were in because I know
Speaker 2: I missed some of this, and so stop me if
Speaker 2: we've been you guys have been through this before you
Speaker 2: went into the military.
Speaker 3: When you were how old? Twenty?
Speaker 10: Okay, so that would have been ninety.
Speaker 3: Eight, right, I.
Speaker 2: Knew the date at one point, but yeah, sometime in
Speaker 2: ninety eight, okay.
Speaker 3: And then in the military you moved around a little bit.
Speaker 2: In the military, you went overseas, came back, and then
Speaker 2: you were in stationed in Washington. And then were you
Speaker 2: stationed in Washington when you got out of They were
Speaker 2: in Washington when you decided to get out of the.
Speaker 3: Military, okay.
Speaker 2: And then from there you went to live in the
Speaker 2: abbey with Tammy.
Speaker 3: Okay. Where'd you move from the where's the next place
Speaker 3: you moved then? From the abbay here? Okay?
Speaker 2: So it's just been since military, it's only been Alaska
Speaker 2: in Mia Bay, yeah, okay. Prior to the military, I
Speaker 2: know you had said you'd been in You were in
Speaker 2: Oregon for like that nine months or whatever building the house?
Speaker 3: Was that right before the military?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Then I lived in upstate New York for well, it
Speaker 4: was less than a year before I went went in
Speaker 4: the army.
Speaker 8: Okay, So you were in Oregon in like ninety six
Speaker 8: ninety seven, right.
Speaker 2: And then upstate New York and then and then before
Speaker 2: Oregon it was.
Speaker 4: Was it Washington?
Speaker 2: Okay, cause you're with your f you're with your parents, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: And your properties in New York.
Speaker 4: Yeah, alright, I think I got it.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 8: One of the things I was noticing, uh and looking
Speaker 8: at some of your stuff, that looks like when you
Speaker 8: came to uh Alaska, it looks like financially things started.
Speaker 4: I mean, is it was it?
Speaker 8: Is it because it was more expensive up here? Or
Speaker 8: is it because you had to go outside to do
Speaker 8: these do the things that you were doing when you
Speaker 8: were lived outside.
Speaker 4: I mean, you've got when you lived in Washington, you
Speaker 4: could drive, I assume to places, and then you come
Speaker 4: up here and you have.
Speaker 8: To fly because you don't like doing things right in
Speaker 8: your own I mean, it looks like there's an obvious
Speaker 8: progression of would you say you had money problems or.
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 6: I mean I had a lot of credit. I wasn't
Speaker 6: really worried about the credit. We're planning on paying it
Speaker 6: off or probably not so I guess then my question.
Speaker 8: Would be then, so since you since you lived in Alaska,
Speaker 8: would you say that with the second you know, with
Speaker 8: some of these things like being financing things, whether you
Speaker 8: had with burglaries or robberies that they have, did you
Speaker 8: have to do more when you were here to to survive?
Speaker 8: In other words, and keep looks like making your minimum
Speaker 8: payments on your credit cards when they got to the.
Speaker 6: Seems like there was one time that I did, there
Speaker 6: was something that went wrong there. That happened a few
Speaker 6: times after I went in business for myself, there were
Speaker 6: there would be a job that went batter I didn't
Speaker 6: get paid for, and then I would have to scramble
Speaker 6: a little bit.
Speaker 4: But for the most part I didn't really worry too much.
Speaker 6: About that kind of scramble, meaning figure out what to
Speaker 6: do I was going to do about mine to pay
Speaker 6: the bills.
Speaker 4: But for the most part, I didn't really like to
Speaker 4: worry about that stuff too much.
Speaker 11: And just.
Speaker 8: A lot of stuff is just curiosity too Like for
Speaker 8: you said the bank and Azell you said, I said,
Speaker 8: tend to.
Speaker 4: The dollars a lot of money. You're like that, it's not, well,
Speaker 4: it's a small bank. It seems like it was a
Speaker 4: pretty small bank. What's what's a what it would be a.
Speaker 8: Without hypothetically what would be a good It was a
Speaker 8: good bank?
Speaker 4: Score if ten thousands not No, that's I'm not saying
Speaker 4: that's bad. I don't know.
Speaker 6: I'm just saying for a bank robbery, that's I don't know,
Speaker 6: for a takeover robbery, that's not that much money for.
Speaker 4: A good takeover robbery. Well, could one expect I would
Speaker 4: think more than ten thousand dollars.
Speaker 8: So if someone was a if someone was a pretty
Speaker 8: decent bank robbery and had a oh fourteen fifteen year
Speaker 8: career doing it, how much money do you think one
Speaker 8: could maybe not accumulate?
Speaker 4: But have you thought of that? Do you know that exactly?
Speaker 11: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Okay, I suppose you accumulate a lot of money, can
Speaker 4: accumulate a lot of things.
Speaker 3: What's the most you've gotten?
Speaker 4: I I don't know that more than ten.
Speaker 8: But I think we asked you this before too, So
Speaker 8: you're not You're not. You're not gonna say that.
Speaker 4: The bank robberies and stuff like that was to specifically.
Speaker 8: Facilitate and finance these other things that you were doing,
Speaker 8: like every trip that you went out and need you
Speaker 8: to continue to do with no or it was.
Speaker 4: I mean, did you do that too so you couldn't
Speaker 4: afford to continue to do this?
Speaker 12: No, I'm the bank robberies.
Speaker 4: Were more of a like a challenge kind of thing.
Speaker 6: And a curiosity kind of thing to see if I
Speaker 6: could get away with it.
Speaker 4: I guess because it was, you know, not like you
Speaker 4: can do one and not be noticed.
Speaker 8: It's did you progress in them from I think you'd
Speaker 8: referred to it as poor men's bank robbery.
Speaker 4: And I never did I know a robbery, an I
Speaker 4: wasn't really in my mind that wasn't even really a robbery.
Speaker 4: I didn't really.
Speaker 11: Have any interest in that.
Speaker 8: And so then before each one of these and you
Speaker 8: assumed you planned your route.
Speaker 10: I know you have.
Speaker 8: I know you looked at the routes in and out
Speaker 8: of towns and things like that when you were looking
Speaker 8: at towns.
Speaker 4: So did you what.
Speaker 8: If A did you do a scenario where you after
Speaker 8: this bank robbery, if the cops come in, I'm gonna
Speaker 8: do this. I'm gonna drive this way if something happens.
Speaker 8: I mean, how did you prepare for what could have happened?
Speaker 8: Or do you think you would have just improvised?
Speaker 4: I mean, did you always have.
Speaker 6: A Yeah, I have.
Speaker 4: I usually would have two or three different routes planed out,
Speaker 4: and uh try to figure.
Speaker 6: Out what the most likely route or the best route
Speaker 6: to take based on whether you know how many police
Speaker 6: might be coming in from where type of thing.
Speaker 8: Did you think about military police or did you ever
Speaker 8: have you ever thought about being police?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I considered I considered it. I by the time
Speaker 4: I got out of the military, iide decided it probably
Speaker 4: wasn't a very good idea, though I don't know the
Speaker 4: whole polygrap thing. I know, I wasn't really thinking of that,
Speaker 4: but yeah, that's a good point. What kind of questions
Speaker 4: do I ask? So, you know, did you actually try
Speaker 4: to become a police possible?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 6: I think I was looking at applications and stuff at
Speaker 6: one point, but I'm not not seriously, I too many
Speaker 6: domestic situations to deal with. If it was all dang
Speaker 6: bandshoot 'em out, the probably would have been there in
Speaker 6: a minute.
Speaker 8: I heard a little of that, right, But that's that's
Speaker 8: why I say. You said you read CRI criminal books
Speaker 8: and stuff, so you had some propensity to or were
Speaker 8: you reading them just to.
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 6: I was interested in it, but I was never I
Speaker 6: was never interested in being the good guy. I was
Speaker 6: interested in having a career. I wasn't really interested in
Speaker 6: becoming a I don't know what the traditional reasons are.
Speaker 4: For white people and police.
Speaker 11: But.
Speaker 4: I guess I was more.
Speaker 6: Interested in it curiosity.
Speaker 4: Better to be on the inside than on the outside
Speaker 4: looking at kind of thing.
Speaker 11: So so it would have been a cover job.
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, did you try other jobs. I know you
Speaker 8: were you know, contractor for him, but even in Theia
Speaker 8: Bay you were maintenance or I.
Speaker 4: Worked for the tribe.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think well officially I was parts and recreation,
Speaker 6: but I did a lot of different things there for them.
Speaker 8: Any jobs at for other people like businesses.
Speaker 6: McDonald's, no, no, my my, Uh. I've had a lot
Speaker 6: of I've done a lot of work and jobs, But
Speaker 6: as far as like jobs where you pay taxes, it's.
Speaker 4: I haven't really had that many. Do you believe in
Speaker 4: taxes or is that just necessarily believe in staying under
Speaker 4: the radar so they don't ask why you're not right?
Speaker 4: Had you try the were.
Speaker 6: My thoughts when I was arrest and I was like, man,
Speaker 6: I've got sure I'm not gonna get to file my taxes.
Speaker 10: Had you traveled to Alaska before you moved up here?
Speaker 11: Had you visited?
Speaker 4: Yeah? When did you visit? I don't remember. It seems
Speaker 4: like I flew up a couple of times though.
Speaker 2: Like right before you moved up and in planning or
Speaker 2: was it like years before for trips and that kind
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 4: Well, it was right before.
Speaker 6: Prior to that, I had done some road trips into Canada,
Speaker 6: I think, but I don't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never made it.
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Speaker 4: The easiest one that I ever going to find. Yeah,
Speaker 4: probably is even with your help up, you're really close.
Speaker 2: I think you had said like a quarter mile past the.
Speaker 10: Parking lot ended up being about a half mile, but
Speaker 10: beyond that.
Speaker 4: It was Yeah, did you was there something like that
Speaker 4: in the road or how how do you know where
Speaker 4: in the woods it was just because of the burr
Speaker 4: or was there like.
Speaker 6: Poles or no, just landmarks, trees, dragways like that?
Speaker 4: I actually saw that. Did it pick it on like
Speaker 4: a bit flat shovel would have sucked? Actually dig it
Speaker 4: a hole? So there's that ditch. I bet he was
Speaker 4: just gonna fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug.
Speaker 4: It wasn't really only a room for one person in.
Speaker 2: So we've asked you a lot of questions so far,
Speaker 2: you have any questions for us?
Speaker 4: Do you have any Vermont pictures for me.
Speaker 8: No, we need I mean we I guess we could
Speaker 8: show you pictures of the dump that does that you
Speaker 8: want to see.
Speaker 4: It's not gonna there isn't any There hasn't been a
Speaker 4: recovery there yet. Oh I know, so eventually I want
Speaker 4: to see pictures of it all, though.
Speaker 3: Do we You didn't see if I haven't seen a
Speaker 3: picture of the landfill yet, I saw an.
Speaker 4: Aerial picture from the news bulletin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we No, I think we've got some
Speaker 2: of the lifeful or.
Speaker 4: I just want to see I believe.
Speaker 11: Why.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of money that's been spent out there
Speaker 2: already on this.
Speaker 3: So No, I think we can. We can find a
Speaker 3: couple of pictures in for next time. See.
Speaker 4: That's yeah.
Speaker 6: One thing I was gonna say, as this goes along,
Speaker 6: as this progresses, we'll have to work out some sort
Speaker 6: of arrangement where I get to see.
Speaker 4: The same thing, the evidence, the well your evidence. I
Speaker 4: guess if if we if we recovered, there's gonna be something.
Speaker 6: Not just that, but everything we talk about, like videos, you.
Speaker 3: Want to see, like what we find.
Speaker 4: That's not saying you have to see everything. I'm sure
Speaker 4: you're not gonna show me everything anyway, but you know.
Speaker 3: Like something to corroborate that were.
Speaker 4: Just something I need to look at.
Speaker 2: Was that because you want to make sure that we're
Speaker 2: being honest with you, or because.
Speaker 3: You just want to see it?
Speaker 4: Because I just want to see it.
Speaker 6: Not reading many kicks in twenty three hour lockdown, so
Speaker 6: I gotta take my kicks.
Speaker 11: Or can get.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 4: One of the things wanted.
Speaker 8: I wanted to kind of collaborate too on these these
Speaker 8: other serial killers and stuff.
Speaker 4: Did they like.
Speaker 8: Did you read about anything that they've done and mimic
Speaker 8: anything they did, or go to the place they did,
Speaker 8: or anything that you would say.
Speaker 4: That you know paralleled or did any thing?
Speaker 8: No, nothing specific new ideas. Here's we're all new ideas.
Speaker 8: No other looks.
Speaker 4: Well, different, same locations, anything like that. No, I don't
Speaker 4: think so, not consciously. Do you know history about these people.
Speaker 8: Like where they were born, where they where they were,
Speaker 8: their position in the family, was their profile?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I know a.
Speaker 6: Lot about them, just nothing special though, just what anybody
Speaker 6: could read about him.
Speaker 4: It's not like I made a hobby out of researching him.
Speaker 4: But it's it's just one of these.
Speaker 6: Sort of things that anytime I came across to anything
Speaker 6: related to it, I would read it or tune into it.
Speaker 4: Or is that do you is that?
Speaker 8: Where do you put your and you in the same
Speaker 8: category as some of these people, especially like you said Bundy,
Speaker 8: because you kind of have some type.
Speaker 6: I relate to him, but I don't really myself in
Speaker 6: the same category.
Speaker 11: I don't know.
Speaker 8: Because you know, like later on and I don't know
Speaker 8: whether why would his moves were Bundy's word later on
Speaker 8: and while he was in jail one to help law
Speaker 8: enforcement and he was trying to help with the Green River.
Speaker 4: Those guys did not know that. Do you think that's
Speaker 4: something that serial killers?
Speaker 8: Do you think that he and there's no place like
Speaker 8: where serial killers talk on the internet, or you don't
Speaker 8: you can't see someone and see same traits and those
Speaker 8: kind of things.
Speaker 4: Oh, I think that. I think there have been people
Speaker 4: I've talked to over the years that.
Speaker 6: I definitely get a vibe off of, just because I
Speaker 6: have a hard time controlling my own so I pick
Speaker 6: up on things that people do to misdirect, yeah, attention
Speaker 6: from certain areas of their lives or certain things they say,
Speaker 6: same thing I do.
Speaker 4: Type of thing.
Speaker 3: You talked about Matthew before. Is that kind of the
Speaker 3: guy in the military you were talking about. Is that
Speaker 3: kind of what you're.
Speaker 4: Talking about similarly, Yeah, he was.
Speaker 2: He was.
Speaker 4: Kind of different in that he had a really rough
Speaker 4: time as a teenager kind of thing. So I don't
Speaker 4: know how much of.
Speaker 6: How much of the things I picked up for him
Speaker 6: from him were things that he couldn't really control on
Speaker 6: how much was like leftover like damage to this type stuff,
Speaker 6: because I know he was on heroin and stuff before
Speaker 6: he got in the army, so I know he went
Speaker 6: through some pretty heavy stuff before he was even in
Speaker 6: the arms. So on those on those aspects of his life,
Speaker 6: I couldn't really relate to him. But there were other
Speaker 6: things we talked about that I definitely you know, there
Speaker 6: was a point where I felt like I really shouldn't
Speaker 6: hang out with him anymore, just because I was afraid
Speaker 6: certain things might come up.
Speaker 4: And you know, so he hit something in tom Yeah, so.
Speaker 3: You run your age, Yeah, I think so. Do you
Speaker 3: know where he was from? Let me mentioned he came
Speaker 3: from kind of a bad background.
Speaker 4: I think he was from Ohio.
Speaker 3: Was he still in when you got out?
Speaker 6: He got out either right after I did or before
Speaker 6: slay before he.
Speaker 2: Didn't meanst ever hear what happened to him last I
Speaker 2: talked to him, who was working for telemarketing place in Cleveland.
Speaker 2: I think, just back in Ohio and stay out of
Speaker 2: trouble or did he you know, I mean, he's not
Speaker 2: gonna tell you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty short of conversation over the phone.
Speaker 6: There was a time there was just for a minute
Speaker 6: I was. I think it was shortly after I discovered
Speaker 6: the Internet. I did some searches and found some people
Speaker 6: that I had known in the military, kind of more
Speaker 6: out of curiosity thing than to reconnect with him, and I.
Speaker 4: Called a few of them and we talked.
Speaker 6: But like I say, I was never really close with
Speaker 6: any of them when I was in the army. So
Speaker 6: and most of them it seemed like they had kind
Speaker 6: of gone down him after they got out of the army.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think there were a couple that had dishonorable or
Speaker 6: less than honorable discharges.
Speaker 4: And stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So do you know if his was I.
Speaker 4: Don't know if his was. I think his was honorable,
Speaker 4: but I don't know for sure.
Speaker 3: Just more small talk kind of stuff.
Speaker 4: Nothing. Yeah, though when I talked to him, he was
Speaker 4: neither of us were really social.
Speaker 6: It's not like I mean, I'm sure if he had
Speaker 6: we'd ended up in the same state, we probably would
Speaker 6: have stayed friends. But it wasn't like we were going
Speaker 6: to have a long term friendship relationship. Yeah, long distance
Speaker 6: time type of things.
Speaker 4: And I'm sure we asked you this before.
Speaker 8: It wasn't why the army instead of any of the
Speaker 8: other armed forces.
Speaker 6: Was Yeah, I just I just did what I wanted
Speaker 6: to do. That's what I had always read about, was
Speaker 6: you know, like World War two, Vietnam army stories, guys
Speaker 6: on the ground, right, that was the kind.
Speaker 4: Of thing that appealed to me. Backwards survival type stuff.
Speaker 3: Computers.
Speaker 2: You mentioned when computers first can out, you start doing
Speaker 2: searches and just wanted to see what was up with
Speaker 2: the military guys. When you would you talked before with
Speaker 2: us about there were a couple of times that you
Speaker 2: would go on your computer and do a search just
Speaker 2: to see if a body had been found or I
Speaker 2: don't know, Arsenal bankrubb or whatever it is. When you
Speaker 2: were doing it, how would you how would you do that?
Speaker 2: I mean, did you know names of everybody? Or would
Speaker 2: you do just no Google search a town and or
Speaker 2: how would you do it?
Speaker 4: I was, with the.
Speaker 6: Exception of the computer that you guys got from Kimberly's house,
Speaker 6: I generally wouldn't do it on the home computers. I
Speaker 6: had another computer that I did use for a while,
Speaker 6: but for the most part it was a computer that I.
Speaker 4: Was planning on having around for a while. I would
Speaker 4: never do re searches on it, which, as I did do,
Speaker 4: were usually pretty generic.
Speaker 6: I would type in an area or a newspaper of
Speaker 6: an area, and type in a keyword.
Speaker 4: I would never type in a specific.
Speaker 2: Name the name of the newspaper from the area, like
Speaker 2: if I.
Speaker 4: Would do.
Speaker 6: Right, So, yeah, I would do a search of news
Speaker 6: from an area I guess, and then pull up either
Speaker 6: a newspaper or news channel online news, type in a
Speaker 6: keyword of something, and just scroll down the different stories.
Speaker 4: So I found them when I was looking for.
Speaker 6: If I was doing it from an anonymous computer like
Speaker 6: an airport or a library or something.
Speaker 13: I would do I would just type in what I
Speaker 13: wanted right away.
Speaker 4: Bring it up.
Speaker 3: Did you know the names? Did you remember the names
Speaker 3: of most of the people?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, on the major things. Yeah, and so
Speaker 4: I know we talked to you.
Speaker 8: You said that when you would did these burglars and stuff,
Speaker 8: you would take jewelry and those kind of things. Did
Speaker 8: you bring that kind of stuff back with you and
Speaker 8: give it to Kimberly or I mean.
Speaker 4: How did you what did you do with it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 6: I usually would bury it.
Speaker 8: Is that so that you could? I mean, did you
Speaker 8: then dig it up later to sell it or just
Speaker 8: possess it?
Speaker 4: It's just more to habits, you know, where it is
Speaker 4: type of thing.
Speaker 8: And because you said you brought the stuff from the
Speaker 8: Alito fire Home and oh.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there was a little Yeah, there was a
Speaker 6: little bit of jewelry down there.
Speaker 11: I guess.
Speaker 4: That wasn't really a blur burglary per se.
Speaker 2: That was just.
Speaker 4: I mean, I had found that house, but I was
Speaker 4: running out of time, so I guess I just figured
Speaker 4: take a look inside and and burn it.
Speaker 2: The thing.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but.
Speaker 8: And yeah, take a look at something. You said you
Speaker 8: were in the in there a couple hours looking around.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I had found it before. I mean I
Speaker 4: I knew it was there before.
Speaker 6: I don't remember how many days before I found it,
Speaker 6: but I knew it was there, and I knew it
Speaker 6: was an empty house.
Speaker 2: You've talked before about how like I think even with
Speaker 2: the couriers, you talked about how afterwards, emotionally.
Speaker 3: For you, there's a high for a while, and then
Speaker 3: eventually you kind of come back down from that high.
Speaker 2: Using the couriers as an example, you came back to
Speaker 2: Alaska on that high.
Speaker 3: Once the high goes away, is it just can you
Speaker 3: just think.
Speaker 2: About what happened and that's enough to kind of just
Speaker 2: relive it and work through it again. Or you told
Speaker 2: us before you don't keep trophies. You don't do that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But are are there things that you
Speaker 2: do have or that you do keep that aren't really
Speaker 2: necessarily trophies but that you use for that you use
Speaker 2: as a reminder, you use just just to have because
Speaker 2: you said you'd like to possess things, you like to
Speaker 2: keep things.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not that I'd never It's not that I
Speaker 6: didn't want to take trophies or have things.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 6: Just concerned about having them. Sure, But so yeah, for
Speaker 6: the most part, it's just all the stuff's just in
Speaker 6: my head.
Speaker 3: But there's things you could take that wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I that I can think of that wouldn't be no
Speaker 2: way that law enforcement would be really hard for us
Speaker 2: to connect it back. I mean, were there times that
Speaker 2: you did take things that you thought were safe or.
Speaker 6: For the most part, oh, the things I would have
Speaker 6: been interested in taking wouldn't have been safe.
Speaker 4: Put it that way, okay.
Speaker 8: But but there are things you took that technically you
Speaker 8: still have because they're in cashes. If there's guns or
Speaker 8: something that you took from a burglary and got them
Speaker 8: in a cash.
Speaker 4: Somewhere, then I'm just saying, technically you still possess them
Speaker 4: and they're just not on you, you know, at your
Speaker 4: house or on you or whatever.
Speaker 8: Yeah, especially Alito stuff, which what was different about that
Speaker 8: bringing that stuff on?
Speaker 6: Actually I was supposed to have taken that back down
Speaker 6: with me the second time.
Speaker 4: I just forgot because I was gonna.
Speaker 6: Stash it at the same time I did those guns,
Speaker 6: and I never got around to the guns either, So
Speaker 6: so I was, yeah, I was planning to stash in
Speaker 6: there the first time and.
Speaker 4: Forget where you had them.
Speaker 6: Or no, I just didn't find good place and decided
Speaker 6: I didn't want to. I didn't want to have them
Speaker 6: that far south anyway, because I wasn't planning.
Speaker 5: On going back to Texas again. So I don't like Texas. No,
Speaker 5: I wasn't a big fan of Texas. Really, I've been
Speaker 5: in other states.
Speaker 4: I liked toeeople are too nosy.
Speaker 2: It too.
Speaker 13: Too many guns and two uh any gates and fences
Speaker 13: and Texas definitely too many video cameras.
Speaker 8: On the one on the prostitutes. On prostitution you have,
Speaker 8: was there a preference on gender? Always there?
Speaker 4: Did you have? Did you see male prostitutes?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: I well no kind of male prostitutes. We're gonna say,
Speaker 4: we get really fuzzy thout your definite I forgot how
Speaker 4: a semitic you could be half male?
Speaker 3: That's one way to say it.
Speaker 14: Uh are you thinking or are you just?
Speaker 4: Oh, you're acting on that? No, for the most part,
Speaker 4: is female prostitute sounds like a yes to me? The
Speaker 4: most part.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't really understood the whole male prostitute think.
Speaker 4: Well, I guess No, I I guess I do understand.
Speaker 4: I it was never an issue.
Speaker 9: For him at all, Like, h, let's just smart for.
Speaker 3: That's did you ever do like the casual encounter thing
Speaker 3: on you.
Speaker 4: Think you shock? You worried about shockuns? No, just what.
Speaker 11: It's just.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 4: I imagine you guys aren't shockable at this point.
Speaker 6: M No, it's just like male Like like I said,
Speaker 6: I never really understood the one male prostitutes things that
Speaker 6: I don't know if you're I guess if you're looking
Speaker 6: for something really anonymous and you're concerned about getting caught
Speaker 6: with a man, or if you're a really ugly guy,
Speaker 6: I guess you might have to pay another guy to.
Speaker 4: Have sex with you.
Speaker 6: But for the most part, it's not that hard on
Speaker 6: you guy to hook up with pretty casually, whereas.
Speaker 4: If you have specific.
Speaker 6: Ideas in mind and you want a woman you.
Speaker 4: Have to pay for it. It's just fine. It's just
Speaker 4: the way it is.
Speaker 2: Though, did you say the whole crugslist catual e counter thing?
Speaker 2: Is that something that you ever did? You mentioned in
Speaker 2: the casual book up?
Speaker 4: No, well, no, I never really did that. Any other
Speaker 4: questions for us.
Speaker 2: Concerns well, other than the obvious one that no, we
Speaker 2: don't have an answer for. As we continue to go
Speaker 2: through stuff the computers and to see other stuff kind
Speaker 2: of like today, just things come up that we don't.
Speaker 3: Have all the answers for.
Speaker 10: Is it's alright if we just do this kind.
Speaker 2: Of meeting for that kind of stuff. Yeah, kind of
Speaker 2: the little the little key, not.
Speaker 10: None of the high pressure stuff.
Speaker 4: This works, Yeah, what's high pressure?
Speaker 3: Maybe it's a bad choice to words.
Speaker 4: No, it's just funny whatever. Yeah whatever, I don't really know.
Speaker 3: What. But not getting into all the stuff.
Speaker 10: I mean, like when we met the other day, it was.
Speaker 6: Oh, you're you're talking about wanting specific names and dates.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will take it if you're willing to give
Speaker 3: it to us.
Speaker 4: We know what I'm saying too.
Speaker 5: M h.
Speaker 4: Okay, I think we don't. If you don't have anything else,
Speaker 4: we don't get ready to take you back home. Mhmm,
Speaker 4: you'd be skippy. M.