WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.400 Hey, everybody, I just ad libbed the most perfect preface 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:07.919 to this episode, and then, of course realize the microphone 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.880 was off. Let's see if I can do it again. 4 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.720 Probably not. Before we start this episode, I have a 5 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:15.919 few announcements. The first is I am so pumped to 6 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:20.239 finally be able to promote our tenth anniversary special here 7 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.920 in North Adams, Massachusetts in the Berkshires. Think of it 8 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:27.079 as less of a convention and more of a retreat. 9 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:32.439 There will be live shows, cocktail parties, activities, meet and greets, hangouts, 10 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.320 and plenty of time to actually explore the Berkshires the 11 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.840 perfect time of year, at the end of summer and 12 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:42.399 just at the beginning of leaf peeping season. And I'm 13 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:44.960 excited to announce that some of my favorite people in 14 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:50.960 podcasting will be here making special guest appearances, like Justin 15 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.600 and Aaron from Generation Why, Amanda from Wine and Crime, 16 00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:00.000 Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed, Charlie Worrel from Crime Lines, Talk, 17 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.600 Plattis from String and Tell, and many more dear friends 18 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.280 Being announced soon, we'll be doing a live show of 19 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:12.319 the Karen and Ellen Letters featuring Amanda Jacobson as Karen. 20 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:15.439 I will be telling the story of Kelly Cochran too, 21 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.159 Patrick Hines, the research team and I will be doing 22 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:23.000 a very very special episode of Playlist and more. Plus 23 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.879 there will be studio sessions, an entire Bravo town hall, 24 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:31.159 wine tasting, a dinner party, and so much more. And 25 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.920 we're only selling eighty tickets, so this will be a 26 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.359 super intimate gathering. So join me the weekend of September 27 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.400 twenty fifth here in the Berkshires. Our closest airport is 28 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.640 Albany And if you can't swing that, just a reminder 29 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:50.040 we are going to the Galopgos Islands January eleventh through 30 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.719 the seventeenth. I'll be there with my partner Andrew Charlie 31 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.599 from Crimelines and a bunch of other incredible people who 32 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:59.359 have come on past trips with us. So picture it. 33 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:02.560 It's January, it's thirty five degrees here in the States, 34 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.840 but you're not here. Instead, you are in a tropical 35 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.120 paradise in one of the most unique areas of the world, 36 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.000 literally snorkeling with sea lions or sitting on a beach 37 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.560 checking out the blue footed boobies while drinking a pina colada. 38 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:16.840 With me. 39 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.599 We'll be talking Bravo True Crime and making. What I've 40 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.520 learned are life lasting friendships. Cannot wait to see you there. 41 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.639 Check out the show notes to buy tickets or learn 42 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:31.080 more about both events, or go to both and dot 43 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.639 Fyi and now Here is the second part of Keys's 44 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.319 July twelfth, twenty twelve interview with the FBI. And of 45 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:40.479 all the interviews I'm going to play for you during 46 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:43.800 our time away, this one will be the most critical 47 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:49.479 for season seven of True Crime Bullshit, which premieres October fifth. 48 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:51.879 Can't wait to see you then, and if not then 49 00:02:52.360 --> 00:03:04.960 hopefully before. This is a studio both and production. 50 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:11.319 Do you ever get close to being caught doing any 51 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:13.479 of those any arsens or anything. 52 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:18.520 Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover? 53 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.840 I think I got pretty close with them. It makes 54 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:23.599 you think that. 55 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:33.599 Actually it was It was that one that that you guys. 56 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:39.400 Know about now, that one in New York Tulke. Yeah, 57 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.120 there was. I was leaving. 58 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.719 And there was a car that passed me, and I 59 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:49.159 knew it was a detective or somebody because they had a. 60 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:56.039 They had a visor light or something on some kind 61 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.080 of light. I knew it was a cop of some kind. 62 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.680 Anyway, and it wasn't like an official patrol car, but 63 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:04.639 I think I. 64 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:06.240 Think there were a couple of people in it, and. 65 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.439 It was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff, 66 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.159 and kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well, 67 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.800 because this was quite a while after the robbery, I 68 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:19.279 was quite a waste from the scene. 69 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.639 I was thinking, well, just just in case they. 70 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:26.720 Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better 71 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.680 pull off the road. And there was a campground, and 72 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.360 I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of 73 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.279 backed into some trees and just sat there for a 74 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.079 while and was counting money. 75 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.319 And I think I saw the. 76 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.319 Same car go back the other way, like it might 77 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:46.600 have been looking for me. So I don't know if 78 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:48.279 they I don't even know if it was the same car. 79 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:50.360 It went by really fast, but it looked like it 80 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.199 could have been the same car fast, like it was 81 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:53.040 trying to catch up to you. 82 00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:00.879 Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but 83 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:05.800 all the same, I think I sat there for quite 84 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.519 a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by 85 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.759 then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was 86 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.279 gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a 87 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:15.040 few days later. 88 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:18.199 They that one really freaked him out because it was 89 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:19.680 such a small town and they like. 90 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:25.839 Locked all the schools and everything, swap teams patrolling. 91 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:29.680 The such streets or whatever. But yeah, that was I 92 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:30.800 was thinking at the time. 93 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.079 I was like, I'm just gonna hang out with this campground, 94 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:39.279 count money and stuff. And he stops files act like 95 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:43.199 I'm fishing, and could you have a fishing with full? 96 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:45.160 I think I did on that trip. 97 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.360 I don't think I had a license though, not for 98 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:55.600 you to take that that though, yeah, probably, But. 99 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.240 Why do you think you were able to uh and 100 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:04.680 talking about the practical crimes, why do you think you 101 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.480 were able to get away with so successfully that it 102 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.000 sounds like you did a lot of bank rubberies and 103 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:10.959 burglaries and. 104 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:19.240 Those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered. It's 105 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:21.560 too many freaking video cameras new nays. 106 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.639 So so time's changed. 107 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:28.279 Yeah, it was easy when all you had to worry 108 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:32.279 about was fingerprints and witnesses in DNA. 109 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.720 That stuff's an't pretty easy, cause you also had depending 110 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.399 on uh, what you take, Like if you commit a burglary, 111 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:40.879 you still have to if it's if it's something, if 112 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:43.120 it's not monitor if it's not money you have to 113 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:44.720 sell it or get rid of it or those kind 114 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:45.160 of things. 115 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.399 Because you what did you when you were doing burglaries? 116 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:54.240 What kind of things did you take them? Houses? Well, 117 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:56.839 besides people. 118 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:08.480 The most part, it's not like I needed the money. 119 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.199 So what was the motivation that for the burglaries if 120 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:14.920 it wasn't oh, just. 121 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:18.040 For old time's sake. Well, you said you get the same. 122 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.360 They seem so different, but you describe it as kind 123 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.120 of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries arsens to 124 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.720 some degree. I mean, they they seem so different and 125 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.079 far apart, but you seem to get some. 126 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.720 That's because when I go in to do a burglary, 127 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:36.040 I don't go in to do it. 128 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:45.279 Like most people do. I I go. 129 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:48.199 In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping 130 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:49.319 there's gonna be people there. 131 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:55.399 No, not necessarily, just just knowing that if something happens, 132 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.040 it's you know, it's like if I ever got caught 133 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.439 in the act doing anything, and it's I'm not gonna 134 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.639 go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever. 135 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.639 You know, I always went ready for whatever. 136 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:10.360 I just. 137 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:19.480 So, what would your motivation be going in? What would 138 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:20.240 you be looking for. 139 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:25.920 What would you burglaries? 140 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:37.000 I usually used jewelry and guns small guns, smallish. 141 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:36.840 So some of that are some of the guns that 142 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.759 you still have in places? Those guns? Or did you 143 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:41.080 always get rid of those? 144 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:46.879 Mm? 145 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.440 No, I didn't get rid of them because I was 146 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:53.519 worried about them getting uh tracked. 147 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:58.919 So so you keep them, but you don't keep them 148 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.639 with you so that you're not how with them. So 149 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:04.519 you might have him in a cash somewhere and then use. 150 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.639 Them when you act. You the limitations like five or 151 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:07.399 seven years or. 152 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:07.919 Something like that. 153 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.799 I don't even know, so you wait, I can't tell 154 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.879 whether that'supposed to be a joke. You can you get 155 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.000 charged with that or whether. 156 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.879 So you hide them from the statue of limitations period 157 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:21.960 before you use. 158 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:30.480 That makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked. 159 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:46.639 Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to. 160 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.240 What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting 161 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:49.600 there and you can watch people and they don't know 162 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.519 you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglar because 163 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:53.480 when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff. 164 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.000 Yeah, that same. 165 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.519 Kind So would it be would you would you try 166 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:01.960 to do it to where they would didn't even know 167 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.960 what happened, or make sure they knew it happened, like 168 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.399 I mean breaking windows and breaking doors to go in 169 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:08.720 or get out somehow. 170 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:16.600 And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation. 171 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.519 I guess more often than not there was usually a 172 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:25.480 lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would 173 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:31.000 just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all, 174 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:36.639 necessarily maybe a few little things. 175 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:40.159 So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for 176 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.759 So because a lot of burglers you go into, all 177 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.120 the drawers are open, all those clothes are on the ground, 178 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:46.720 everything's been destroyed. 179 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:53.279 Looking. I never did that, so destroyed to destroy. 180 00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:00.240 Yeah, you'd like to watch people. 181 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:03.159 Did you ever wait in a house and watch people 182 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.360 or wait and watch people come back to see what 183 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:07.440 the reaction would be. 184 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.320 I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years. 185 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.559 And years ago, though, not wait in the house to 186 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:18.720 watch for them to come back. 187 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.600 Not no, not burglaris. 188 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:30.360 No, that's getting onto other crimes. 189 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:32.240 I'm guessing by that reaction. 190 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.320 That's yeah. 191 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.399 I also noticed on some of your on your computers 192 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.399 and send actually in some of the stuff in your. 193 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.840 In your vehicle that you have some t different movies 194 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:51.000 you get. Do you get ideas from movies or is 195 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.919 that you just like no ideas movies? Still, my ideas 196 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:56.279 should have got some. 197 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:01.679 Of them copyrighted kinds, some of those virtu Yeah, there 198 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:07.919 was some cheap, low budget slashing. Maybe some guy made it. 199 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.960 I been there, done that a couple of years ago, 200 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:11.840 and I was kind of pissed off with that one cause, 201 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.360 as far as. 202 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.159 I know, nobody had thought of that or I'd never 203 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.039 read about it. Which one team was that I don't 204 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:17.720 remember what. 205 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:23.200 It was, calling some stupid little bit college kid movie. 206 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:27.639 He was all proud of himself because he was using 207 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:35.440 cable ties and what do you what do you do? 208 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:41.600 In the movie, he uh, strangled this girl with a 209 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:43.240 cable tie. 210 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:53.840 I thought of that. 211 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:59.759 Right after cable ties were invented, or at least those 212 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:00.360 big ones. 213 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:08.399 The Yeah, the idea of doing something as simple as 214 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:12.200 improving your sleep can feel incredibly overwhelming. 215 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.519 New mattress, sleep trackers, supplements, blackout curtains, blah blah blah 216 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.159 blah blah. 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They're a lot of fun, 244 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.000 but they're not really not like the real thing. 245 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.200 I guess I was with Curious System more whether it 246 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.879 was the movies that gave you ideas or whether everything 247 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.240 or anything you've done is kind of been your own thoughts. 248 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:37.720 And I can't think of any movies that I got. Well, 249 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.200 there was a book I read years and years ago. 250 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.519 They gave me a lot of ideas, but I can't 251 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.759 really blame that because those already doing stuff when I read. 252 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.840 That book, But it gave you ideas. Yeah, what book 253 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:51.120 was that? 254 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:52.679 Uh? 255 00:15:52.720 --> 00:16:00.679 It's called Intensity like ding Koons And that was the 256 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:07.600 first book I had read that kind of talked about 257 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.480 things from the other point of view, Like I read 258 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.480 crime novels all the time, but it's always from the 259 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.159 detective's point of view. It's never from the bad guy's 260 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.320 point of view, and it always kissed me off, so. 261 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.320 That I could never find one attack. So like I 262 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:22.360 read that on them. 263 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:29.440 Yeah, but you said, but you said you used to 264 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.600 read cry books, so you've got did you get ideas 265 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:32.840 from that? 266 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:34.679 No? 267 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:36.919 Nothing specific, I don't think. 268 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.720 How about from the from studying Bundy and other people 269 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:44.000 on things that they did that they they either got. 270 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.639 Them caught or that you thought was a bad idea 271 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:50.159 that you stopped doing or don't do or didn't you 272 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.000 because of that? 273 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.679 I yeah, well I got lots of those ideas like 274 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.759 what not to do from books and movies and true 275 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:05.880 crying TV. 276 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.200 Yeah, there's no shortage of what not to do if 277 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:13.480 I had. Like I said, I've been following my own roles. 278 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:28.480 Yeah, Like do you know is for Bunny reasons? 279 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.279 You know enough about him to know where he was 280 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:37.519 doing things and those kind of things, you knows? Yeah, yeah, 281 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.000 I know, I yeah, I know. Serial killer is all 282 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.240 the way back to. 283 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:45.440 That. 284 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.400 My other serial killer hero, I guess not really even 285 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:50.599 relevant because he was. 286 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.799 So long ago, was HH Holmes. 287 00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:02.200 He was pretty much a genius, but back in his day, 288 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.880 it was pretty easy to be a genius, cause nobody 289 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.039 really expected stuff like that back then, so you got 290 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:08.720 away with it for. 291 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:13.799 A long time, and no technology really to have to outsmart. 292 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:22.400 Right back then, you could hire other people to build 293 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:24.880 dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it. 294 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.480 I'm like, oh, like I wants a dungeon. 295 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.920 Well, anything I built like that nowadays I kind of 296 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:30.839 have to do myself. 297 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.759 That kind of warrants an obvious follow up question of 298 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:46.960 do you have a dungeon? 299 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:50.559 Have you ever built anything like that? 300 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:52.119 Na? 301 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:58.880 No, nothing, Now, however, it something you would have liked 302 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.720 to have, though, Oh I had plenty of plans for him, 303 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:09.279 it's not really the more my retirement plan. 304 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.079 Your stuff seems to be. The stuff that we know 305 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:20.000 about seems to be kind of quick in the sense 306 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.599 that it happens over a day period of time or 307 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:24.559 twelve hour period of time or something like that. 308 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:26.799 And again, I've told you weren't gonna get into like 309 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:29.160 push it for specifics on a lot of this, on 310 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.960 this kind of stuff. 311 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:36.200 But were there crimes? Were you you did keep someone 312 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:37.079 for longer than that? 313 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:51.480 No? No, it's a few hours. 314 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.200 Plans too and didn't work out, or just you purposely 315 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.000 cut it short like that for logistics. 316 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:07.359 Reasons and uh, getting caught Yeah, I was. 317 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:16.720 I I had plans to you know, it would have been. 318 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:19.799 Nice if I coulda done that, but I was never 319 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:20.960 set up. 320 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.160 To do it to where it will. It would have 321 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:29.200 been pretty higher risk if I had ever tried to 322 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:29.519 do that. 323 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.759 You joked about the retirement plan. Was that something you 324 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.240 had thought about trying to figure out a way to 325 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.480 do that though? Logistically a way to be able to 326 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:40.720 do that. 327 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.119 Yeah, it's a lot easier to do it if you're 328 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:43.720 a bachelor. 329 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.640 Mm so it would have been a few years before 330 00:20:51.920 --> 00:21:00.559 started construction. H was it was it? And I I mean, 331 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:02.519 I guess I don't know that any of them. Was 332 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:03.279 it easy to. 333 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:08.759 Have a relationship with, say Kimberly and still NB or 334 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.039 did it to become harder or it seems like it 335 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.480 would be extremely difficult to maintain kind of. 336 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:16.880 The two lives that you've talked about. 337 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:24.599 Uh, it only got hard at the end, But it 338 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.640 wasn't the relationship. 339 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.359 It was you know, everything got harder at the end. 340 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:29.920 It was. 341 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.640 L just lost inter It was like I I simultaneously 342 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:35.640 lost interest. 343 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.799 In a lot of other things and Uh. 344 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.839 Tried to kick started and get you know, get it back, 345 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:49.720 kind of snap myself out of it a few times, 346 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:55.160 and then just couldn't maintain anymore. 347 00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:58.480 So you know, So it was it wasn't like the 348 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:02.880 typical relationship breakdown of you. Oh yeah, it was. 349 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:04.240 It was. Yeah. 350 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:10.799 Do you think over the years. 351 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.920 Any of any of the people that you were with 352 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.640 Kimberly or whoever, or Cammy or whoever before, do you 353 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.680 think any of them had any any ideas. 354 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.759 About about the other side of you? 355 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:27.799 I imagine. 356 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:34.680 Twenty twenty hindsight, you might remember some stuff, but I 357 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:45.039 don't can't remember any time where where there was any 358 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.519 question as to what I was or who I was. 359 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.400 Maybe questions about where you were, but not necessarily there were. 360 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.480 Some questions about where I had been, but I always, 361 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.359 like I say, I usually. 362 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.279 Planned things so that I had I don't know. 363 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.920 They sounded like good reasons excuses to me, and nobody 364 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:11.880 ever really called me on. 365 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:16.000 So I don't know. 366 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:19.359 And I know at one point in time you told 367 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.079 us that, uh, Kimberly was oblivious to. 368 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.000 You know, you use that word, I think, to what 369 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:27.000 was going on and stuff. 370 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.599 Do you think that there was this you know when 371 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.519 you met her, was there a tonu type about attraction 372 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.000 like that that you perceived that that that it would 373 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.599 be an easy relationship to carry on cause she wouldn't 374 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:44.440 be suspicious Miss Tammy the same way. I've never I 375 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.400 don't know, I've never met Tammy. I have the Kimberly, 376 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.880 but nothing. 377 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:57.920 No, there's yeah, there's certain personality types that. 378 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:06.960 I would work harder at having a relationship with because 379 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.599 you know, if they would have, uh like Kimberly for example, 380 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:31.759 she has pretty hectic career and her own she's has 381 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:33.200 her own social life, and. 382 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.519 She's, I guess she'd say, like a self contained person. 383 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:43.880 So we had a good relationship, but it was easy 384 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.799 to separate myself from it and uh, go do my 385 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.039 own thing, and then you know, she would do her 386 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.119 own thing shot and both of us were always okay 387 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.359 with that. Whereas you know, some other personality types, you know, 388 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:01.440 like once you're together, the it's like everything has to 389 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:02.839 be done together, and that. 390 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:04.680 Would have made it kind of hard. 391 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:11.400 But you know, like with Kimberly and the girlfriend I 392 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.680 had before her, they they had their own careers and stuff. 393 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:18.000 So if I said, well, I'm going to fly stuff 394 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.039 in such a place and do this and that, and 395 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:23.759 they would say okay, and there was never this, well 396 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:24.960 I want to come with you. 397 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.079 You know. 398 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:28.240 It's like they wouldn't do that because they had a job, 399 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:32.200 you know. So was there a relationship between Tammy and Kimberly. 400 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:36.680 Not really, It's just. 401 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.680