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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, I just ad libbed the most perfect preface

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to this episode, and then, of course realize the microphone

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was off. Let's see if I can do it again.

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Probably not. Before we start this episode, I have a

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few announcements. The first is I am so pumped to

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finally be able to promote our tenth anniversary special here

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in North Adams, Massachusetts in the Berkshires. Think of it

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as less of a convention and more of a retreat.

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There will be live shows, cocktail parties, activities, meet and greets, hangouts,

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and plenty of time to actually explore the Berkshires the

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perfect time of year, at the end of summer and

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just at the beginning of leaf peeping season. And I'm

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excited to announce that some of my favorite people in

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podcasting will be here making special guest appearances, like Justin

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and Aaron from Generation Why, Amanda from Wine and Crime,

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Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed, Charlie Worrel from Crime Lines, Talk,

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Plattis from String and Tell, and many more dear friends

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Being announced soon, we'll be doing a live show of

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the Karen and Ellen Letters featuring Amanda Jacobson as Karen.

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I will be telling the story of Kelly Cochran too,

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Patrick Hines, the research team and I will be doing

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a very very special episode of Playlist and more. Plus

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there will be studio sessions, an entire Bravo town hall,

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wine tasting, a dinner party, and so much more. And

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we're only selling eighty tickets, so this will be a

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super intimate gathering. So join me the weekend of September

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twenty fifth here in the Berkshires. Our closest airport is

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Albany And if you can't swing that, just a reminder

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we are going to the Galopgos Islands January eleventh through

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the seventeenth. I'll be there with my partner Andrew Charlie

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from Crimelines and a bunch of other incredible people who

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have come on past trips with us. So picture it.

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It's January, it's thirty five degrees here in the States,

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but you're not here. Instead, you are in a tropical

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paradise in one of the most unique areas of the world,

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literally snorkeling with sea lions or sitting on a beach

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checking out the blue footed boobies while drinking a pina colada.

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Speaker 2: With me.

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Speaker 1: We'll be talking Bravo True Crime and making. What I've

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learned are life lasting friendships. Cannot wait to see you there.

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Check out the show notes to buy tickets or learn

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more about both events, or go to both and dot

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Fyi and now Here is the second part of Keys's

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July twelfth, twenty twelve interview with the FBI. And of

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all the interviews I'm going to play for you during

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our time away, this one will be the most critical

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for season seven of True Crime Bullshit, which premieres October fifth.

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Can't wait to see you then, and if not then

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hopefully before. This is a studio both and production.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever get close to being caught doing any

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of those any arsens or anything.

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Speaker 3: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover?

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Speaker 4: I think I got pretty close with them. It makes

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you think that.

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Speaker 5: Actually it was It was that one that that you guys.

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Speaker 4: Know about now, that one in New York Tulke. Yeah,

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there was. I was leaving.

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Speaker 6: And there was a car that passed me, and I

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knew it was a detective or somebody because they had a.

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Speaker 4: They had a visor light or something on some kind

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of light. I knew it was a cop of some kind.

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Speaker 6: Anyway, and it wasn't like an official patrol car, but

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I think I.

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Speaker 4: Think there were a couple of people in it, and.

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Speaker 6: It was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff,

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and kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,

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because this was quite a while after the robbery, I

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was quite a waste from the scene.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.

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Speaker 6: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better

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pull off the road. And there was a campground, and

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I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of

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backed into some trees and just sat there for a

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while and was counting money.

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Speaker 4: And I think I saw the.

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Speaker 6: Same car go back the other way, like it might

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have been looking for me. So I don't know if

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they I don't even know if it was the same car.

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Speaker 4: It went by really fast, but it looked like it

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could have been the same car fast, like it was

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trying to catch up to you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but

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all the same, I think I sat there for quite

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a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by

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then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was

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gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a

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few days later.

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Speaker 4: They that one really freaked him out because it was

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such a small town and they like.

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Speaker 6: Locked all the schools and everything, swap teams patrolling.

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Speaker 4: The such streets or whatever. But yeah, that was I

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was thinking at the time.

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Speaker 6: I was like, I'm just gonna hang out with this campground,

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count money and stuff. And he stops files act like

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I'm fishing, and could you have a fishing with full?

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Speaker 4: I think I did on that trip.

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Speaker 6: I don't think I had a license though, not for

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you to take that that though, yeah, probably, But.

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Speaker 7: Why do you think you were able to uh and

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talking about the practical crimes, why do you think you

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were able to get away with so successfully that it

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sounds like you did a lot of bank rubberies and

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burglaries and.

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Speaker 6: Those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered. It's

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too many freaking video cameras new nays.

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Speaker 4: So so time's changed.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it was easy when all you had to worry

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about was fingerprints and witnesses in DNA.

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Speaker 8: That stuff's an't pretty easy, cause you also had depending

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on uh, what you take, Like if you commit a burglary,

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you still have to if it's if it's something, if

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it's not monitor if it's not money you have to

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sell it or get rid of it or those kind

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of things.

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Speaker 4: Because you what did you when you were doing burglaries?

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What kind of things did you take them? Houses? Well,

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besides people.

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Speaker 6: The most part, it's not like I needed the money.

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Speaker 2: So what was the motivation that for the burglaries if

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it wasn't oh, just.

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Speaker 4: For old time's sake. Well, you said you get the same.

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Speaker 8: They seem so different, but you describe it as kind

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of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries arsens to

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some degree. I mean, they they seem so different and

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far apart, but you seem to get some.

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Speaker 6: That's because when I go in to do a burglary,

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I don't go in to do it.

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Speaker 4: Like most people do. I I go.

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Speaker 8: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping

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there's gonna be people there.

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Speaker 6: No, not necessarily, just just knowing that if something happens,

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it's you know, it's like if I ever got caught

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in the act doing anything, and it's I'm not gonna

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go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.

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Speaker 4: You know, I always went ready for whatever.

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Speaker 2: I just.

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Speaker 3: So, what would your motivation be going in? What would

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you be looking for.

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Speaker 4: What would you burglaries?

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Speaker 6: I usually used jewelry and guns small guns, smallish.

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Speaker 4: So some of that are some of the guns that

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you still have in places? Those guns? Or did you

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always get rid of those?

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Speaker 3: Mm?

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Speaker 4: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was

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worried about them getting uh tracked.

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Speaker 8: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them

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with you so that you're not how with them. So

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you might have him in a cash somewhere and then use.

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Speaker 4: Them when you act. You the limitations like five or

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seven years or.

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Speaker 9: Something like that.

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Speaker 4: I don't even know, so you wait, I can't tell

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whether that'supposed to be a joke. You can you get

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charged with that or whether.

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Speaker 8: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period

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before you use.

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Speaker 4: That makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked.

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Speaker 3: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.

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Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting

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there and you can watch people and they don't know

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you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglar because

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when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that same.

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Speaker 8: Kind So would it be would you would you try

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to do it to where they would didn't even know

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what happened, or make sure they knew it happened, like

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I mean breaking windows and breaking doors to go in

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or get out somehow.

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Speaker 4: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.

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I guess more often than not there was usually a

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lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would

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just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all,

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necessarily maybe a few little things.

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Speaker 8: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for

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So because a lot of burglers you go into, all

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the drawers are open, all those clothes are on the ground,

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everything's been destroyed.

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Speaker 4: Looking. I never did that, so destroyed to destroy.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house and watch people

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or wait and watch people come back to see what

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the reaction would be.

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Speaker 4: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.

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Speaker 2: And years ago, though, not wait in the house to

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watch for them to come back.

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Speaker 4: Not no, not burglaris.

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Speaker 10: No, that's getting onto other crimes.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing by that reaction.

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Speaker 4: That's yeah.

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Speaker 8: I also noticed on some of your on your computers

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and send actually in some of the stuff in your.

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Speaker 4: In your vehicle that you have some t different movies

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you get. Do you get ideas from movies or is

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that you just like no ideas movies? Still, my ideas

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should have got some.

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Speaker 6: Of them copyrighted kinds, some of those virtu Yeah, there

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was some cheap, low budget slashing. Maybe some guy made it.

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I been there, done that a couple of years ago,

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and I was kind of pissed off with that one cause,

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as far as.

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Speaker 4: I know, nobody had thought of that or I'd never

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read about it. Which one team was that I don't

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remember what.

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Speaker 6: It was, calling some stupid little bit college kid movie.

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Speaker 4: He was all proud of himself because he was using

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cable ties and what do you what do you do?

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In the movie, he uh, strangled this girl with a

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cable tie.

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Speaker 3: I thought of that.

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Speaker 6: Right after cable ties were invented, or at least those

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big ones.

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Speaker 11: The Yeah, the idea of doing something as simple as

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improving your sleep can feel incredibly overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: New mattress, sleep trackers, supplements, blackout curtains, blah blah blah

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blah blah. Suddenly it becomes this huge project. But the

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truth is most people aren't sleeping poorly because of their mattress.

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They're sleeping on old bedding. The fastest, simplest way to

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Speaker 3: Anything else from movies.

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Speaker 6: Movies. Movies are like video games. They're a lot of fun,

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but they're not really not like the real thing.

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Speaker 8: I guess I was with Curious System more whether it

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was the movies that gave you ideas or whether everything

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or anything you've done is kind of been your own thoughts.

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Speaker 4: And I can't think of any movies that I got. Well,

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there was a book I read years and years ago.

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Speaker 6: They gave me a lot of ideas, but I can't

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really blame that because those already doing stuff when I read.

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Speaker 4: That book, But it gave you ideas. Yeah, what book

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was that?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 6: It's called Intensity like ding Koons And that was the

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first book I had read that kind of talked about

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things from the other point of view, Like I read

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crime novels all the time, but it's always from the

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detective's point of view. It's never from the bad guy's

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point of view, and it always kissed me off, so.

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Speaker 4: That I could never find one attack. So like I

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read that on them.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, but you said, but you said you used to

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read cry books, so you've got did you get ideas

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from that?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 4: Nothing specific, I don't think.

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Speaker 8: How about from the from studying Bundy and other people

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on things that they did that they they either got.

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Speaker 4: Them caught or that you thought was a bad idea

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that you stopped doing or don't do or didn't you

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because of that?

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Speaker 6: I yeah, well I got lots of those ideas like

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what not to do from books and movies and true

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crying TV.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no shortage of what not to do if

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I had. Like I said, I've been following my own roles.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, Like do you know is for Bunny reasons?

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Speaker 4: You know enough about him to know where he was

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doing things and those kind of things, you knows? Yeah, yeah,

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I know, I yeah, I know. Serial killer is all

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the way back to.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 6: My other serial killer hero, I guess not really even

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relevant because he was.

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Speaker 4: So long ago, was HH Holmes.

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Speaker 6: He was pretty much a genius, but back in his day,

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it was pretty easy to be a genius, cause nobody

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really expected stuff like that back then, so you got

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away with it for.

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Speaker 10: A long time, and no technology really to have to outsmart.

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Speaker 6: Right back then, you could hire other people to build

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dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, like I wants a dungeon.

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Speaker 6: Well, anything I built like that nowadays I kind of

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have to do myself.

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Speaker 2: That kind of warrants an obvious follow up question of

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do you have a dungeon?

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Speaker 3: Have you ever built anything like that?

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Speaker 11: Na?

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Speaker 4: No, nothing, Now, however, it something you would have liked

302
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,720
to have, though, Oh I had plenty of plans for him,

303
00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:09,279
it's not really the more my retirement plan.

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Speaker 2: Your stuff seems to be. The stuff that we know

305
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:20,000
about seems to be kind of quick in the sense

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that it happens over a day period of time or

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twelve hour period of time or something like that.

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Speaker 10: And again, I've told you weren't gonna get into like

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push it for specifics on a lot of this, on

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this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: But were there crimes? Were you you did keep someone

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for longer than that?

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Speaker 4: No? No, it's a few hours.

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Speaker 8: Plans too and didn't work out, or just you purposely

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cut it short like that for logistics.

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Speaker 4: Reasons and uh, getting caught Yeah, I was.

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Speaker 6: I I had plans to you know, it would have been.

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Speaker 4: Nice if I coulda done that, but I was never

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set up.

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Speaker 6: To do it to where it will. It would have

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been pretty higher risk if I had ever tried to

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do that.

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Speaker 2: You joked about the retirement plan. Was that something you

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had thought about trying to figure out a way to

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do that though? Logistically a way to be able to

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do that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a lot easier to do it if you're

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a bachelor.

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Speaker 4: Mm so it would have been a few years before

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started construction. H was it was it? And I I mean,

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I guess I don't know that any of them. Was

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it easy to.

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Speaker 8: Have a relationship with, say Kimberly and still NB or

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did it to become harder or it seems like it

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would be extremely difficult to maintain kind of.

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Speaker 10: The two lives that you've talked about.

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Speaker 6: Uh, it only got hard at the end, But it

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wasn't the relationship.

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Speaker 4: It was you know, everything got harder at the end.

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It was.

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Speaker 6: L just lost inter It was like I I simultaneously

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lost interest.

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Speaker 4: In a lot of other things and Uh.

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Speaker 6: Tried to kick started and get you know, get it back,

345
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kind of snap myself out of it a few times,

346
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and then just couldn't maintain anymore.

347
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Speaker 4: So you know, So it was it wasn't like the

348
00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:02,880
typical relationship breakdown of you. Oh yeah, it was.

349
00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 11: It was. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Do you think over the years.

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Speaker 2: Any of any of the people that you were with

352
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Kimberly or whoever, or Cammy or whoever before, do you

353
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think any of them had any any ideas.

354
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Speaker 3: About about the other side of you?

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Speaker 4: I imagine.

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Speaker 6: Twenty twenty hindsight, you might remember some stuff, but I

357
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don't can't remember any time where where there was any

358
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question as to what I was or who I was.

359
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: Maybe questions about where you were, but not necessarily there were.

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00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 6: Some questions about where I had been, but I always,

361
00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:01,359
like I say, I usually.

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00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,279
Speaker 4: Planned things so that I had I don't know.

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00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 6: They sounded like good reasons excuses to me, and nobody

364
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,880
ever really called me on.

365
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

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Speaker 8: And I know at one point in time you told

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us that, uh, Kimberly was oblivious to.

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Speaker 4: You know, you use that word, I think, to what

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was going on and stuff.

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Speaker 8: Do you think that there was this you know when

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you met her, was there a tonu type about attraction

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like that that you perceived that that that it would

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be an easy relationship to carry on cause she wouldn't

374
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be suspicious Miss Tammy the same way. I've never I

375
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don't know, I've never met Tammy. I have the Kimberly,

376
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but nothing.

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Speaker 4: No, there's yeah, there's certain personality types that.

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Speaker 6: I would work harder at having a relationship with because

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00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,599
you know, if they would have, uh like Kimberly for example,

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00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:31,759
she has pretty hectic career and her own she's has

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her own social life, and.

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Speaker 4: She's, I guess she'd say, like a self contained person.

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00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 6: So we had a good relationship, but it was easy

384
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,799
to separate myself from it and uh, go do my

385
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:50,039
own thing, and then you know, she would do her

386
00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:53,119
own thing shot and both of us were always okay

387
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,359
with that. Whereas you know, some other personality types, you know,

388
00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:01,440
like once you're together, the it's like everything has to

389
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:02,839
be done together, and that.

390
00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 4: Would have made it kind of hard.

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00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 6: But you know, like with Kimberly and the girlfriend I

392
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,680
had before her, they they had their own careers and stuff.

393
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,000
So if I said, well, I'm going to fly stuff

394
00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:20,039
in such a place and do this and that, and

395
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,759
they would say okay, and there was never this, well

396
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:24,960
I want to come with you.

397
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:25,079
Speaker 2: You know.

398
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: It's like they wouldn't do that because they had a job,

399
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,200
you know. So was there a relationship between Tammy and Kimberly.

400
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,680
Not really, It's just.

401
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 6: There was a little bit of drama at one point,

402
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,279
But no, there wasn't a relationship.

403
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:48,519
Speaker 8: Is that somebody in Washington? You said, you're asking if

404
00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:50,880
they knew each other? No, No, I'm asking who it

405
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:57,119
is somebody else? Yeah, for a while, who was that?

406
00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 4: Uh? Her name was Denise. She lived in.

407
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 6: She had a family in Niabay and she lived in

408
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:13,799
Kent down by Sea, Tark or something.

409
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: It's summer, which means it's time to change how you're

410
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411
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more breathable, things that are easy but still put together.

412
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And that's why I keep coming back to Quints, because

413
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they focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing.

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418
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wanted something cozy and fashionable yet breathable because Iceland summers

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420
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Speaker 3: Did you date a lot?

440
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,079
Speaker 4: Not really. I usually had a girlfriend, but I.

441
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: Didn't you know, were they more kind of just long term,

442
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,960
long term relationships?

443
00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:26,599
Speaker 3: It wasn't just a lot of short relationships.

444
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:30,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean there were periods in between where I

445
00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:32,559
would date a few people, though.

446
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,119
Speaker 4: For the most part, was you know, longer term the better.

447
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: When did you When did you meet Tammy?

448
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 11: How long?

449
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 4: Because I met her when I was an army.

450
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: When you were stationed in Washington.

451
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:54,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was. I think I met her

452
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,039
right after I got back from Egypt.

453
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,759
Speaker 2: So time frame wise, you were in because I know

454
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:09,839
I missed some of this, and so stop me if

455
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:11,960
we've been you guys have been through this before you

456
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:12,960
went into the military.

457
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 3: When you were how old? Twenty?

458
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 10: Okay, so that would have been ninety.

459
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,519
Speaker 3: Eight, right, I.

460
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,359
Speaker 2: Knew the date at one point, but yeah, sometime in

461
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,920
ninety eight, okay.

462
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: And then in the military you moved around a little bit.

463
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,319
Speaker 2: In the military, you went overseas, came back, and then

464
00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:40,640
you were in stationed in Washington. And then were you

465
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,640
stationed in Washington when you got out of They were

466
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,400
in Washington when you decided to get out of the.

467
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:46,799
Speaker 3: Military, okay.

468
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: And then from there you went to live in the

469
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,200
abbey with Tammy.

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00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:55,119
Speaker 3: Okay. Where'd you move from the where's the next place

471
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:59,079
you moved then? From the abbay here? Okay?

472
00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:01,279
Speaker 2: So it's just been since military, it's only been Alaska

473
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:05,640
in Mia Bay, yeah, okay. Prior to the military, I

474
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,039
know you had said you'd been in You were in

475
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:11,000
Oregon for like that nine months or whatever building the house?

476
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: Was that right before the military?

477
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 2: No?

478
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: Then I lived in upstate New York for well, it

479
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,759
was less than a year before I went went in

480
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:22,200
the army.

481
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,359
Speaker 8: Okay, So you were in Oregon in like ninety six

482
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:28,359
ninety seven, right.

483
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,599
Speaker 2: And then upstate New York and then and then before

484
00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:36,440
Oregon it was.

485
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:35,079
Speaker 4: Was it Washington?

486
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: Okay, cause you're with your f you're with your parents, yeah, okay.

487
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,359
Speaker 3: And your properties in New York.

488
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, alright, I think I got it.

489
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: Well.

490
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 8: One of the things I was noticing, uh and looking

491
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,319
at some of your stuff, that looks like when you

492
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:04,519
came to uh Alaska, it looks like financially things started.

493
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,319
Speaker 4: I mean, is it was it?

494
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:08,279
Speaker 8: Is it because it was more expensive up here? Or

495
00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:13,240
is it because you had to go outside to do

496
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:14,960
these do the things that you were doing when you

497
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:15,759
were lived outside.

498
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: I mean, you've got when you lived in Washington, you

499
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,200
could drive, I assume to places, and then you come

500
00:31:20,279 --> 00:31:21,519
up here and you have.

501
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 8: To fly because you don't like doing things right in

502
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:29,160
your own I mean, it looks like there's an obvious

503
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,920
progression of would you say you had money problems or.

504
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 11: No?

505
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 6: I mean I had a lot of credit. I wasn't

506
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,839
really worried about the credit. We're planning on paying it

507
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:48,359
off or probably not so I guess then my question.

508
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,759
Speaker 8: Would be then, so since you since you lived in Alaska,

509
00:31:50,799 --> 00:31:55,279
would you say that with the second you know, with

510
00:31:55,599 --> 00:31:58,400
some of these things like being financing things, whether you

511
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,599
had with burglaries or robberies that they have, did you

512
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,440
have to do more when you were here to to survive?

513
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:09,400
In other words, and keep looks like making your minimum

514
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,359
payments on your credit cards when they got to the.

515
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,319
Speaker 6: Seems like there was one time that I did, there

516
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,079
was something that went wrong there. That happened a few

517
00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:23,680
times after I went in business for myself, there were

518
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,519
there would be a job that went batter I didn't

519
00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:30,480
get paid for, and then I would have to scramble

520
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:31,079
a little bit.

521
00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: But for the most part I didn't really worry too much.

522
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:38,599
Speaker 6: About that kind of scramble, meaning figure out what to

523
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,480
do I was going to do about mine to pay

524
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,000
the bills.

525
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,599
Speaker 4: But for the most part, I didn't really like to

526
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,200
worry about that stuff too much.

527
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:49,839
Speaker 11: And just.

528
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 8: A lot of stuff is just curiosity too Like for

529
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,519
you said the bank and Azell you said, I said,

530
00:32:59,640 --> 00:32:59,920
tend to.

531
00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:04,119
Speaker 4: The dollars a lot of money. You're like that, it's not, well,

532
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,119
it's a small bank. It seems like it was a

533
00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:10,799
pretty small bank. What's what's a what it would be a.

534
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 8: Without hypothetically what would be a good It was a

535
00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:17,200
good bank?

536
00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: Score if ten thousands not No, that's I'm not saying

537
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:20,720
that's bad. I don't know.

538
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 6: I'm just saying for a bank robbery, that's I don't know,

539
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:28,000
for a takeover robbery, that's not that much money for.

540
00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: A good takeover robbery. Well, could one expect I would

541
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:49,480
think more than ten thousand dollars.

542
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 8: So if someone was a if someone was a pretty

543
00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:02,839
decent bank robbery and had a oh fourteen fifteen year

544
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,279
career doing it, how much money do you think one

545
00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:08,679
could maybe not accumulate?

546
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:15,039
Speaker 4: But have you thought of that? Do you know that exactly?

547
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 11: I don't know.

548
00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:23,199
Speaker 4: Okay, I suppose you accumulate a lot of money, can

549
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,519
accumulate a lot of things.

550
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: What's the most you've gotten?

551
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 4: I I don't know that more than ten.

552
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,199
Speaker 8: But I think we asked you this before too, So

553
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,960
you're not You're not. You're not gonna say that.

554
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 4: The bank robberies and stuff like that was to specifically.

555
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:03,519
Speaker 8: Facilitate and finance these other things that you were doing,

556
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,440
like every trip that you went out and need you

557
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,039
to continue to do with no or it was.

558
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,119
Speaker 4: I mean, did you do that too so you couldn't

559
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:17,360
afford to continue to do this?

560
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:33,519
Speaker 12: No, I'm the bank robberies.

561
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 4: Were more of a like a challenge kind of thing.

562
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,119
Speaker 6: And a curiosity kind of thing to see if I

563
00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:44,320
could get away with it.

564
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 4: I guess because it was, you know, not like you

565
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,559
can do one and not be noticed.

566
00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:57,159
Speaker 8: It's did you progress in them from I think you'd

567
00:35:57,159 --> 00:35:59,599
referred to it as poor men's bank robbery.

568
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,119
Speaker 4: And I never did I know a robbery, an I

569
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,039
wasn't really in my mind that wasn't even really a robbery.

570
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:10,239
I didn't really.

571
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 11: Have any interest in that.

572
00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 8: And so then before each one of these and you

573
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,400
assumed you planned your route.

574
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 10: I know you have.

575
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 8: I know you looked at the routes in and out

576
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,440
of towns and things like that when you were looking

577
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,000
at towns.

578
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 4: So did you what.

579
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,199
Speaker 8: If A did you do a scenario where you after

580
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:29,159
this bank robbery, if the cops come in, I'm gonna

581
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:31,440
do this. I'm gonna drive this way if something happens.

582
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,239
I mean, how did you prepare for what could have happened?

583
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,760
Or do you think you would have just improvised?

584
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,639
Speaker 4: I mean, did you always have.

585
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 6: A Yeah, I have.

586
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 4: I usually would have two or three different routes planed out,

587
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,360
and uh try to figure.

588
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:04,639
Speaker 6: Out what the most likely route or the best route

589
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:08,079
to take based on whether you know how many police

590
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,159
might be coming in from where type of thing.

591
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,039
Speaker 8: Did you think about military police or did you ever

592
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:32,199
have you ever thought about being police?

593
00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I considered I considered it. I by the time

594
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,880
I got out of the military, iide decided it probably

595
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,840
wasn't a very good idea, though I don't know the

596
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:56,000
whole polygrap thing. I know, I wasn't really thinking of that,

597
00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:58,840
but yeah, that's a good point. What kind of questions

598
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:05,960
do I ask? So, you know, did you actually try

599
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:06,960
to become a police possible?

600
00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: No.

601
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,079
Speaker 6: I think I was looking at applications and stuff at

602
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:23,960
one point, but I'm not not seriously, I too many

603
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:30,679
domestic situations to deal with. If it was all dang

604
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,639
bandshoot 'em out, the probably would have been there in

605
00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:33,280
a minute.

606
00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:40,199
Speaker 8: I heard a little of that, right, But that's that's

607
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:42,239
why I say. You said you read CRI criminal books

608
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,679
and stuff, so you had some propensity to or were

609
00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:45,760
you reading them just to.

610
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:47,599
Speaker 2: Oh?

611
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:51,679
Speaker 6: I was interested in it, but I was never I

612
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,920
was never interested in being the good guy. I was

613
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,320
interested in having a career. I wasn't really interested in

614
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,119
becoming a I don't know what the traditional reasons are.

615
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 4: For white people and police.

616
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 11: But.

617
00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:08,519
Speaker 4: I guess I was more.

618
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 6: Interested in it curiosity.

619
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 4: Better to be on the inside than on the outside

620
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,360
looking at kind of thing.

621
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 11: So so it would have been a cover job.

622
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:32,599
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, did you try other jobs. I know you

623
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:35,639
were you know, contractor for him, but even in Theia

624
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,119
Bay you were maintenance or I.

625
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:40,039
Speaker 4: Worked for the tribe.

626
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:44,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think well officially I was parts and recreation,

627
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,400
but I did a lot of different things there for them.

628
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 8: Any jobs at for other people like businesses.

629
00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:01,559
Speaker 6: McDonald's, no, no, my my, Uh. I've had a lot

630
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:03,519
of I've done a lot of work and jobs, But

631
00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:07,239
as far as like jobs where you pay taxes, it's.

632
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:13,079
Speaker 4: I haven't really had that many. Do you believe in

633
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:17,920
taxes or is that just necessarily believe in staying under

634
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,920
the radar so they don't ask why you're not right?

635
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,800
Had you try the were.

636
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 6: My thoughts when I was arrest and I was like, man,

637
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,559
I've got sure I'm not gonna get to file my taxes.

638
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 10: Had you traveled to Alaska before you moved up here?

639
00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:40,159
Speaker 11: Had you visited?

640
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 4: Yeah? When did you visit? I don't remember. It seems

641
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,239
like I flew up a couple of times though.

642
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: Like right before you moved up and in planning or

643
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:51,400
was it like years before for trips and that kind

644
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:51,800
of thing.

645
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 4: Well, it was right before.

646
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 6: Prior to that, I had done some road trips into Canada,

647
00:40:58,840 --> 00:40:59,639
I think, but I don't.

648
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never made it.

649
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,559
Speaker 1: You know those legendary nights with your friends, the kind

650
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,559
where you're retelling stories from that night for years, The laughter,

651
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,119
the honesty, everyone dropping their guard at the same time.

652
00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:19,239
That's exactly what happened the first time I tried psilocybin

653
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,440
from Schedule thirty five. And to be clear, this was

654
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,280
not about tripping. It was about connecting. I was in

655
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,960
Palm Springs with Wine and Crime and some other podcasting friends,

656
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,719
and we were all just listening to each other, laughing

657
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,360
until our face is hurt, and remembering what it feels

658
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,239
like to be fully present with the people you love.

659
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:41,719
Since then, I've been microdosing on heavy days to find clarity,

660
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:45,519
and you know, occasionally recreational doses when I need to

661
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:49,159
reset and feel human again. Schedule thirty five doses every

662
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,360
product precisely, so whether it's a microdose or a bigger journey,

663
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,639
you always know exactly what you're getting and where it

664
00:41:56,639 --> 00:41:59,679
can take you. I've found that microdosing has helped with

665
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:06,000
attention to detail, clarity, focus, motivation, and even made me

666
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:08,960
feel a little bit perkier and happier throughout the day,

667
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,920
and yes, every now and again on a Saturday night.

668
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,519
It is fun to pass the gummies around and have

669
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:16,679
a good laugh with the people I love the most.

670
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,280
Go to Schedule thirty five dot co and use code

671
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,159
TCBs for fifteen percent off your first order. That's Schedule

672
00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:30,599
thirty five co code TCBs for fifteen percent off.

673
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:34,559
Speaker 4: The easiest one that I ever going to find. Yeah,

674
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:44,559
probably is even with your help up, you're really close.

675
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:49,079
Speaker 2: I think you had said like a quarter mile past the.

676
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 10: Parking lot ended up being about a half mile, but

677
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:50,920
beyond that.

678
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,159
Speaker 4: It was Yeah, did you was there something like that

679
00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:58,199
in the road or how how do you know where

680
00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:00,280
in the woods it was just because of the burr

681
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:01,079
or was there like.

682
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 6: Poles or no, just landmarks, trees, dragways like that?

683
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 4: I actually saw that. Did it pick it on like

684
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,480
a bit flat shovel would have sucked? Actually dig it

685
00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:14,239
a hole? So there's that ditch. I bet he was

686
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,800
just gonna fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug.

687
00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:23,599
It wasn't really only a room for one person in.

688
00:43:24,119 --> 00:43:28,639
Speaker 2: So we've asked you a lot of questions so far,

689
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,639
you have any questions for us?

690
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 4: Do you have any Vermont pictures for me.

691
00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:42,639
Speaker 8: No, we need I mean we I guess we could

692
00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:44,920
show you pictures of the dump that does that you

693
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:45,320
want to see.

694
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 4: It's not gonna there isn't any There hasn't been a

695
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:54,199
recovery there yet. Oh I know, so eventually I want

696
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:55,599
to see pictures of it all, though.

697
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: Do we You didn't see if I haven't seen a

698
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,480
picture of the landfill yet, I saw an.

699
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 4: Aerial picture from the news bulletin.

700
00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:05,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we No, I think we've got some

701
00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:08,480
of the lifeful or.

702
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,679
Speaker 4: I just want to see I believe.

703
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:14,639
Speaker 11: Why.

704
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: There's a lot of money that's been spent out there

705
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:19,159
already on this.

706
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: So No, I think we can. We can find a

707
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,639
couple of pictures in for next time. See.

708
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,639
Speaker 4: That's yeah.

709
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,079
Speaker 6: One thing I was gonna say, as this goes along,

710
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:39,199
as this progresses, we'll have to work out some sort

711
00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:42,519
of arrangement where I get to see.

712
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 4: The same thing, the evidence, the well your evidence. I

713
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,000
guess if if we if we recovered, there's gonna be something.

714
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 6: Not just that, but everything we talk about, like videos, you.

715
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:04,039
Speaker 3: Want to see, like what we find.

716
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 4: That's not saying you have to see everything. I'm sure

717
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,280
you're not gonna show me everything anyway, but you know.

718
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:12,679
Speaker 3: Like something to corroborate that were.

719
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 4: Just something I need to look at.

720
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,519
Speaker 2: Was that because you want to make sure that we're

721
00:45:21,519 --> 00:45:22,920
being honest with you, or because.

722
00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:23,599
Speaker 3: You just want to see it?

723
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 4: Because I just want to see it.

724
00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 6: Not reading many kicks in twenty three hour lockdown, so

725
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:35,559
I gotta take my kicks.

726
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 11: Or can get.

727
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: So.

728
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:41,559
Speaker 4: One of the things wanted.

729
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:44,519
Speaker 8: I wanted to kind of collaborate too on these these

730
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:46,119
other serial killers and stuff.

731
00:45:46,159 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 4: Did they like.

732
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 8: Did you read about anything that they've done and mimic

733
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,599
anything they did, or go to the place they did,

734
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:55,960
or anything that you would say.

735
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: That you know paralleled or did any thing?

736
00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 8: No, nothing specific new ideas. Here's we're all new ideas.

737
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:10,679
No other looks.

738
00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 4: Well, different, same locations, anything like that. No, I don't

739
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:25,920
think so, not consciously. Do you know history about these people.

740
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 8: Like where they were born, where they where they were,

741
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,800
their position in the family, was their profile?

742
00:46:32,159 --> 00:46:33,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I know a.

743
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 6: Lot about them, just nothing special though, just what anybody

744
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:38,719
could read about him.

745
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 4: It's not like I made a hobby out of researching him.

746
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,719
But it's it's just one of these.

747
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 6: Sort of things that anytime I came across to anything

748
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,639
related to it, I would read it or tune into it.

749
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 4: Or is that do you is that?

750
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 8: Where do you put your and you in the same

751
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,400
category as some of these people, especially like you said Bundy,

752
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,239
because you kind of have some type.

753
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 6: I relate to him, but I don't really myself in

754
00:47:10,559 --> 00:47:11,519
the same category.

755
00:47:11,599 --> 00:47:12,559
Speaker 11: I don't know.

756
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,079
Speaker 8: Because you know, like later on and I don't know

757
00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:22,400
whether why would his moves were Bundy's word later on

758
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,360
and while he was in jail one to help law

759
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,679
enforcement and he was trying to help with the Green River.

760
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,679
Speaker 4: Those guys did not know that. Do you think that's

761
00:47:36,679 --> 00:47:39,480
something that serial killers?

762
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:42,159
Speaker 8: Do you think that he and there's no place like

763
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:45,519
where serial killers talk on the internet, or you don't

764
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:48,320
you can't see someone and see same traits and those

765
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:49,000
kind of things.

766
00:47:52,360 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 4: Oh, I think that. I think there have been people

767
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,760
I've talked to over the years that.

768
00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:10,519
Speaker 6: I definitely get a vibe off of, just because I

769
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:15,519
have a hard time controlling my own so I pick

770
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:23,800
up on things that people do to misdirect, yeah, attention

771
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,840
from certain areas of their lives or certain things they say,

772
00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:27,880
same thing I do.

773
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 4: Type of thing.

774
00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 3: You talked about Matthew before. Is that kind of the

775
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,480
guy in the military you were talking about. Is that

776
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:36,400
kind of what you're.

777
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,199
Speaker 4: Talking about similarly, Yeah, he was.

778
00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:39,039
Speaker 2: He was.

779
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 4: Kind of different in that he had a really rough

780
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,280
time as a teenager kind of thing. So I don't

781
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:51,079
know how much of.

782
00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 6: How much of the things I picked up for him

783
00:48:58,519 --> 00:49:01,800
from him were things that he couldn't really control on

784
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,800
how much was like leftover like damage to this type stuff,

785
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,840
because I know he was on heroin and stuff before

786
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,519
he got in the army, so I know he went

787
00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:10,960
through some pretty heavy stuff before he was even in

788
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:16,039
the arms. So on those on those aspects of his life,

789
00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:19,079
I couldn't really relate to him. But there were other

790
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:23,400
things we talked about that I definitely you know, there

791
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,400
was a point where I felt like I really shouldn't

792
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,519
hang out with him anymore, just because I was afraid

793
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,119
certain things might come up.

794
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 4: And you know, so he hit something in tom Yeah, so.

795
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 3: You run your age, Yeah, I think so. Do you

796
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,119
know where he was from? Let me mentioned he came

797
00:49:41,159 --> 00:49:42,400
from kind of a bad background.

798
00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 4: I think he was from Ohio.

799
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:50,679
Speaker 3: Was he still in when you got out?

800
00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 6: He got out either right after I did or before

801
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,320
slay before he.

802
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,159
Speaker 2: Didn't meanst ever hear what happened to him last I

803
00:50:01,199 --> 00:50:05,559
talked to him, who was working for telemarketing place in Cleveland.

804
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:08,880
I think, just back in Ohio and stay out of

805
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,079
trouble or did he you know, I mean, he's not

806
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:11,639
gonna tell you.

807
00:50:12,119 --> 00:50:15,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty short of conversation over the phone.

808
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 6: There was a time there was just for a minute

809
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,039
I was. I think it was shortly after I discovered

810
00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:29,599
the Internet. I did some searches and found some people

811
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:31,960
that I had known in the military, kind of more

812
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,920
out of curiosity thing than to reconnect with him, and I.

813
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 4: Called a few of them and we talked.

814
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,639
Speaker 6: But like I say, I was never really close with

815
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,519
any of them when I was in the army. So

816
00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:44,480
and most of them it seemed like they had kind

817
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,280
of gone down him after they got out of the army.

818
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah.

819
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:51,079
Speaker 6: I think there were a couple that had dishonorable or

820
00:50:51,159 --> 00:50:53,239
less than honorable discharges.

821
00:50:52,639 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 4: And stuff like that.

822
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 3: So do you know if his was I.

823
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:58,559
Speaker 4: Don't know if his was. I think his was honorable,

824
00:50:58,639 --> 00:51:00,719
but I don't know for sure.

825
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 3: Just more small talk kind of stuff.

826
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 4: Nothing. Yeah, though when I talked to him, he was

827
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:10,840
neither of us were really social.

828
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 6: It's not like I mean, I'm sure if he had

829
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,039
we'd ended up in the same state, we probably would

830
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:16,920
have stayed friends. But it wasn't like we were going

831
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,519
to have a long term friendship relationship. Yeah, long distance

832
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:23,719
time type of things.

833
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,199
Speaker 4: And I'm sure we asked you this before.

834
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 8: It wasn't why the army instead of any of the

835
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:35,679
other armed forces.

836
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,039
Speaker 6: Was Yeah, I just I just did what I wanted

837
00:51:36,559 --> 00:51:39,320
to do. That's what I had always read about, was

838
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,440
you know, like World War two, Vietnam army stories, guys

839
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,599
on the ground, right, that was the kind.

840
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:54,639
Speaker 4: Of thing that appealed to me. Backwards survival type stuff.

841
00:51:59,480 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 3: Computers.

842
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:02,639
Speaker 2: You mentioned when computers first can out, you start doing

843
00:52:02,679 --> 00:52:04,480
searches and just wanted to see what was up with

844
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,280
the military guys. When you would you talked before with

845
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,320
us about there were a couple of times that you

846
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,239
would go on your computer and do a search just

847
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,519
to see if a body had been found or I

848
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:19,159
don't know, Arsenal bankrubb or whatever it is. When you

849
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,079
were doing it, how would you how would you do that?

850
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:25,440
I mean, did you know names of everybody? Or would

851
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,159
you do just no Google search a town and or

852
00:52:29,199 --> 00:52:30,000
how would you do it?

853
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 4: I was, with the.

854
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 6: Exception of the computer that you guys got from Kimberly's house,

855
00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:48,960
I generally wouldn't do it on the home computers. I

856
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,639
had another computer that I did use for a while,

857
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,440
but for the most part it was a computer that I.

858
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,679
Speaker 4: Was planning on having around for a while. I would

859
00:52:57,679 --> 00:53:00,639
never do re searches on it, which, as I did do,

860
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,800
were usually pretty generic.

861
00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 6: I would type in an area or a newspaper of

862
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,800
an area, and type in a keyword.

863
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 4: I would never type in a specific.

864
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,679
Speaker 2: Name the name of the newspaper from the area, like

865
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:16,199
if I.

866
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:17,639
Speaker 4: Would do.

867
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:25,199
Speaker 6: Right, So, yeah, I would do a search of news

868
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,639
from an area I guess, and then pull up either

869
00:53:27,679 --> 00:53:32,599
a newspaper or news channel online news, type in a

870
00:53:32,679 --> 00:53:36,679
keyword of something, and just scroll down the different stories.

871
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:37,679
Speaker 4: So I found them when I was looking for.

872
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 6: If I was doing it from an anonymous computer like

873
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,559
an airport or a library or something.

874
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 13: I would do I would just type in what I

875
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,000
wanted right away.

876
00:53:51,599 --> 00:53:52,199
Speaker 4: Bring it up.

877
00:53:54,039 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 3: Did you know the names? Did you remember the names

878
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:57,519
of most of the people?

879
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, on the major things. Yeah, and so

880
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:06,679
I know we talked to you.

881
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,119
Speaker 8: You said that when you would did these burglars and stuff,

882
00:54:09,119 --> 00:54:12,320
you would take jewelry and those kind of things. Did

883
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,760
you bring that kind of stuff back with you and

884
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,800
give it to Kimberly or I mean.

885
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 4: How did you what did you do with it?

886
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 2: No?

887
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:27,159
Speaker 6: I usually would bury it.

888
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:29,519
Speaker 8: Is that so that you could? I mean, did you

889
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:32,920
then dig it up later to sell it or just

890
00:54:33,159 --> 00:54:33,719
possess it?

891
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 4: It's just more to habits, you know, where it is

892
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:43,280
type of thing.

893
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 8: And because you said you brought the stuff from the

894
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,599
Alito fire Home and oh.

895
00:54:50,519 --> 00:54:53,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there was a little Yeah, there was a

896
00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:55,079
little bit of jewelry down there.

897
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 11: I guess.

898
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 4: That wasn't really a blur burglary per se.

899
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,039
Speaker 2: That was just.

900
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 4: I mean, I had found that house, but I was

901
00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:19,400
running out of time, so I guess I just figured

902
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:25,599
take a look inside and and burn it.

903
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:26,639
Speaker 2: The thing.

904
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:27,639
Speaker 4: I don't know, but.

905
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 8: And yeah, take a look at something. You said you

906
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:38,840
were in the in there a couple hours looking around.

907
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:45,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I had found it before. I mean I

908
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:47,199
I knew it was there before.

909
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,039
Speaker 6: I don't remember how many days before I found it,

910
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:52,800
but I knew it was there, and I knew it

911
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,679
was an empty house.

912
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:04,519
Speaker 2: You've talked before about how like I think even with

913
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:08,320
the couriers, you talked about how afterwards, emotionally.

914
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 3: For you, there's a high for a while, and then

915
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,440
eventually you kind of come back down from that high.

916
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:20,599
Speaker 2: Using the couriers as an example, you came back to

917
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:22,840
Alaska on that high.

918
00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 3: Once the high goes away, is it just can you

919
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:27,880
just think.

920
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 2: About what happened and that's enough to kind of just

921
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,800
relive it and work through it again. Or you told

922
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,679
us before you don't keep trophies. You don't do that

923
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,920
kind of stuff. But are are there things that you

924
00:56:40,039 --> 00:56:41,880
do have or that you do keep that aren't really

925
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,559
necessarily trophies but that you use for that you use

926
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:49,639
as a reminder, you use just just to have because

927
00:56:49,639 --> 00:56:51,119
you said you'd like to possess things, you like to

928
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:52,159
keep things.

929
00:56:52,719 --> 00:57:00,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not that I'd never It's not that I

930
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:03,239
didn't want to take trophies or have things.

931
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 4: I was.

932
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:12,119
Speaker 6: Just concerned about having them. Sure, But so yeah, for

933
00:57:12,159 --> 00:57:14,320
the most part, it's just all the stuff's just in

934
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:14,760
my head.

935
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,679
Speaker 3: But there's things you could take that wouldn't.

936
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 2: I that I can think of that wouldn't be no

937
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,079
way that law enforcement would be really hard for us

938
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:29,119
to connect it back. I mean, were there times that

939
00:57:29,159 --> 00:57:31,199
you did take things that you thought were safe or.

940
00:57:31,159 --> 00:57:34,039
Speaker 6: For the most part, oh, the things I would have

941
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:36,519
been interested in taking wouldn't have been safe.

942
00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 4: Put it that way, okay.

943
00:57:39,159 --> 00:57:43,599
Speaker 8: But but there are things you took that technically you

944
00:57:43,639 --> 00:57:47,239
still have because they're in cashes. If there's guns or

945
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,880
something that you took from a burglary and got them

946
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,119
in a cash.

947
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,199
Speaker 4: Somewhere, then I'm just saying, technically you still possess them

948
00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:57,320
and they're just not on you, you know, at your

949
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,880
house or on you or whatever.

950
00:57:59,199 --> 00:58:02,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, especially Alito stuff, which what was different about that

951
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:03,119
bringing that stuff on?

952
00:58:06,119 --> 00:58:10,079
Speaker 6: Actually I was supposed to have taken that back down

953
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:11,119
with me the second time.

954
00:58:11,159 --> 00:58:13,159
Speaker 4: I just forgot because I was gonna.

955
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 6: Stash it at the same time I did those guns,

956
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:23,360
and I never got around to the guns either, So

957
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,519
so I was, yeah, I was planning to stash in

958
00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:27,159
there the first time and.

959
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,039
Speaker 4: Forget where you had them.

960
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 6: Or no, I just didn't find good place and decided

961
00:58:34,639 --> 00:58:37,639
I didn't want to. I didn't want to have them

962
00:58:37,639 --> 00:58:40,960
that far south anyway, because I wasn't planning.

963
00:58:40,719 --> 00:58:49,719
Speaker 5: On going back to Texas again. So I don't like Texas. No,

964
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:56,920
I wasn't a big fan of Texas. Really, I've been

965
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:57,559
in other states.

966
00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:01,119
Speaker 4: I liked toeeople are too nosy.

967
00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: It too.

968
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 13: Too many guns and two uh any gates and fences

969
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:21,079
and Texas definitely too many video cameras.

970
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,159
Speaker 8: On the one on the prostitutes. On prostitution you have,

971
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,000
was there a preference on gender? Always there?

972
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,679
Speaker 4: Did you have? Did you see male prostitutes?

973
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: No?

974
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 4: I well no kind of male prostitutes. We're gonna say,

975
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,559
we get really fuzzy thout your definite I forgot how

976
00:59:50,599 --> 00:59:54,480
a semitic you could be half male?

977
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 3: That's one way to say it.

978
01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:25,639
Speaker 14: Uh are you thinking or are you just?

979
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:33,239
Speaker 4: Oh, you're acting on that? No, for the most part,

980
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:46,440
is female prostitute sounds like a yes to me? The

981
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:46,960
most part.

982
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't really understood the whole male prostitute think.

983
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,679
Speaker 4: Well, I guess No, I I guess I do understand.

984
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:06,039
I it was never an issue.

985
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 9: For him at all, Like, h, let's just smart for.

986
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 3: That's did you ever do like the casual encounter thing

987
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:31,840
on you.

988
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 4: Think you shock? You worried about shockuns? No, just what.

989
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:37,679
Speaker 11: It's just.

990
01:01:40,159 --> 01:01:40,199
Speaker 2: No.

991
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:44,199
Speaker 4: I imagine you guys aren't shockable at this point.

992
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 6: M No, it's just like male Like like I said,

993
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,280
I never really understood the one male prostitutes things that

994
01:01:55,039 --> 01:02:00,519
I don't know if you're I guess if you're looking

995
01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:05,239
for something really anonymous and you're concerned about getting caught

996
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,679
with a man, or if you're a really ugly guy,

997
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,000
I guess you might have to pay another guy to.

998
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:11,199
Speaker 4: Have sex with you.

999
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,559
Speaker 6: But for the most part, it's not that hard on

1000
01:02:13,719 --> 01:02:18,880
you guy to hook up with pretty casually, whereas.

1001
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 4: If you have specific.

1002
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:30,239
Speaker 6: Ideas in mind and you want a woman you.

1003
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:40,519
Speaker 4: Have to pay for it. It's just fine. It's just

1004
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:41,280
the way it is.

1005
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:46,559
Speaker 2: Though, did you say the whole crugslist catual e counter thing?

1006
01:02:46,639 --> 01:02:48,440
Is that something that you ever did? You mentioned in

1007
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:49,280
the casual book up?

1008
01:02:49,519 --> 01:02:57,679
Speaker 4: No, well, no, I never really did that. Any other

1009
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:58,679
questions for us.

1010
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 2: Concerns well, other than the obvious one that no, we

1011
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:16,400
don't have an answer for. As we continue to go

1012
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:22,159
through stuff the computers and to see other stuff kind

1013
01:03:22,159 --> 01:03:24,800
of like today, just things come up that we don't.

1014
01:03:24,559 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 3: Have all the answers for.

1015
01:03:25,639 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 10: Is it's alright if we just do this kind.

1016
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:32,199
Speaker 2: Of meeting for that kind of stuff. Yeah, kind of

1017
01:03:32,199 --> 01:03:34,559
the little the little key, not.

1018
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 10: None of the high pressure stuff.

1019
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,159
Speaker 4: This works, Yeah, what's high pressure?

1020
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 3: Maybe it's a bad choice to words.

1021
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 4: No, it's just funny whatever. Yeah whatever, I don't really know.

1022
01:03:58,119 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 3: What. But not getting into all the stuff.

1023
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,119
Speaker 10: I mean, like when we met the other day, it was.

1024
01:04:02,159 --> 01:04:05,599
Speaker 6: Oh, you're you're talking about wanting specific names and dates.

1025
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will take it if you're willing to give

1026
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:10,840
it to us.

1027
01:04:12,239 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 4: We know what I'm saying too.

1028
01:04:14,719 --> 01:04:15,039
Speaker 5: M h.

1029
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 4: Okay, I think we don't. If you don't have anything else,

1030
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:27,480
we don't get ready to take you back home. Mhmm,

1031
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,760
you'd be skippy. M.