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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets.

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Speaker 2: It's all behaved with Arden More, this show that teaches

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you how to have harmony in the household with your pets.

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Join Ardna. She travels coast to coast to help millions

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better understand why cats and dogs do what they do.

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Get that latest scoop on famous spaces, they're perfectly pampered pets.

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And who's walking goo and rint him Tinseltown. From famous

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pet experts and best selling authors to television and movie stars.

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You'll get the latest buzz from Wagging Tongues and Tails Garner,

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great pet tips and have a dog one per flying

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fun time. So get ready for the paws and applause

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as we unleaseh your oh behave hosts America's pet edutainer

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Arden Moore.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the old Behave show.

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Speaker 3: I'm Pet Life Radio. I'm your host, Arden Moore.

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Speaker 1: Now gonna just say it, Socrates, just move over, sit

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and stay our camou. Hey you too, Cans. You know

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our special guest is about to unleash a big revelation.

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Speaker 2: Dogs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, dogs are natural and wonderful philosophers.

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Speaker 3: Now we can learn a.

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Speaker 1: Lot from our dogs if we just stop yapping and

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start paying attention to them. So please welcome to our show.

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The author of a new must get booked. It is

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called The Word of Dog. Please welcome Professor Mark Rowlands. Welcome,

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Welcome Professor Mark.

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Speaker 4: Thank you Auden then, thanks for having me. I'm delighted

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to be here.

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Speaker 1: Hey, pat pals, it turns out that Mark is the

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chair I mean that's another word of saying top dog

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of the philosophy department at the University of Miami in Florida.

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He's also a lifelong advocate and supporter of dogs. We're

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going to find out how dogs are natural philosophers. We're

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going to take a quick break. So sit, stay, we'll

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be right back.

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Speaker 5: Time for a pause.

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Speaker 2: Four very ones, actually sit and stay, all behave We'll

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be right back.

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Speaker 6: Take a bite out of your competition. Advertise your business

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with an ad in pet Life Radio podcasts and radio shows.

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large and reaches more pet parents and pet lovers than

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Life Radio podcasts are available on all major podcast platforms,

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Speaker 2: Let's talk pets on petlifradio dot Com. All behaviors back

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with more tail wagging ways to achieve harmony of a

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household with your pets. Now back to your fetching host

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America's pet ed You, Jayner Arden More.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the old Behave show on pet Life Radio.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, Arden Moore.

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Speaker 1: Our special guest is Professor Mark Rollins.

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Speaker 3: Check him out.

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Speaker 1: He's at the University of Miami in Florida. He has

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very very very strong typing thinkers. He's written almost two

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dozen books and his latest book, it is called The

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Word of Dog. What our canine companions can teach us

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about living a good life? And I hope, Professor Mark,

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that you're gonna get a little inspiration. Credit to your

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German shepherd Shadow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, Shadow is the one who got me thinking about

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the stuff which eventually turned into this book. It all

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started really on a daily walks. There's a canal that

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runs behind my house and we go out there every

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day and lined up along the bank in the mornings

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will be iguanas, a various types, lined up at fairly

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regular intervals, and Shadow will charge off hundreds of the

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yards up the canal. The iguanas peel off into the water,

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swim to the other side, and then stay over on

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the far bank for the rest of the day. But

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then nighttime is apparently a time when iguanas forget things,

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because the next morning they'll be back on our side,

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lined up, ready for the whole.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying that iguanas have short term amnesia.

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Speaker 4: Short term amnesia, or short term memory.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure where I do sense from your book

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you have a little soft spot for these green iguanas

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because you've named a few. Give people some of the

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names that you've named, because you've seen these guys and

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you've got some clever names for them.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, there was there was Cocky, who was always

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the last. He was very, very confident, always the last

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to jump in.

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Speaker 1: He's probably going.

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Speaker 4: Shadow, yeah, pretty much. And then there was Bolt, who

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was named because unfortunately had a he had cross bolt

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crossbow bolt sticking out of his ribs. Didn't seem to bother.

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Speaker 1: There's your British hum coming out. Okay, keep going.

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Speaker 4: But my favorite was Big Pappy. He was huge, you know,

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he was five to six feet long. I thought he

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was a gator when I first saw him out of

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the corner of my eye. You know, I mean by

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the frights, But yeah, I did come to think of

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them as an our iguanas you know, so so name

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naming them was a natural extension of this.

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Speaker 1: Well, your book is called The Word of Dog, and

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I'm a big Mark Twain fan, and I know he's

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been quoted as saying the dog is a gentleman. I

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hope to go to his heaven and not man's. I

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want to ask you. You quote in your book, you

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quote the Greek philosopher Socrates, you quote Albert Camu, You

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talk about a lot, and I'm like, oh my gosh,

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my brain is hurting. But I read your book, But

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what is it about dogs, and specifically your German shepherd Shadow,

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that did inspire you to take a pause, not a paw,

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a pause and say, you know what, they're natural philosophers.

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What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 4: Well, on the when Shadow was doing his daily daily

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trick of exiling the iguanas. It struck me after a while,

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because you know, wheels turned slowly sometimes. But after a

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few years of doing this, it struck me that, well,

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this is a lot like the myth of Sisyphus. So

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Sicypus was a mortal.

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Speaker 1: There is I said the wrong word. I was doing

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a sexually transmitted disease, syphilis. But it is correct to

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pronounce what.

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Speaker 4: Yes, sisypus syphilis. That would have been a different, different story,

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in a different moral way. So Sisyphus, I agree to

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be getting it wrong now saying the wrong word. So

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Sisus a mortal. He offended the gods in some way,

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and they punished him by making him roll a large

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rock up a hill or forever when it when the

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rock gets the top, he gets the top, the rock

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rolls back down, he starts all over again. So it

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struck me that this, this activity of shadow, was very

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much like Sisfus. No matter how many times he exiles

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the iguanas to the other side, the very next morning

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they're back again and he has to do this thing.

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Or now, interestingly, sisy Us when he when he's brought up,

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is brought up as the sort of the epitome of

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a meaningless existence, just repetitive activity that eats nothing, aims

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only in his own continuation. But it struck me, and

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this was the intuition that that made to write the book.

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I think ultimately this this was this was Shadow. This

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was the best part of Shadows Day. This was the

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most meaningful part of Shadows Day. So the idea was, well,

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if Shadow can find meaning in this, then he must

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in some sense have solved the challenge of Sisimus, even

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though he had no idea that such a challenge existed,

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because he is, of course a dog, and so so

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so I was. I became obsessed with how he managed

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to do this. Well, what's the difference between Shadow and

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us such that he could find meaning in this activity

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whereas for us it would be the epitome of a

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meaningless life.

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Speaker 1: Well, you also talked about when your boys were younger.

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You would say this, Shadow, Hey, Shadow, time to pick

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up my son at school. And he wasn't going to

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a dog park, he wasn't getting one of those nice

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little frosty dog things at Starbucks. He would tell us

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about that, because it was just to go pick up

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your son. Yeah, there was no Benny really for Shadow,

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other than what so tell us about that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, he's lying right here next to me.

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Speaker 1: Actually he's telling you to say, I hesitate.

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Speaker 4: To other of those words, because but no, I would say, Shadow,

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do you want to come with? And then you start

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bouncing around, you know, throwing himself, hurling himself around the house.

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Sometimes he managed he'd find his leash, and sometimes he'd

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manage to leash himself by tossing it up in the

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air and inserting his head you know in between.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a German shepherd.

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Speaker 4: They're smart and so and he knows, as you say,

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he is smart. He knows because he's been doing he'd

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been doing this videos. Nothing interesting was going to happen.

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Weren't going to any dog parks, weren't going for a

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run or anything like that. We're just going to drive

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across Miami, pick up my son and come back. And

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that was it. But you would think, you know, the

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greatest thing in his whole life had just happened to him.

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Every time I said this, and I thought, well, that's

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that's interesting. Why can't I feel like that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is just pure joy, pure bliss, absolutely, And

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it wasn't with big expectations, right.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean Shadow is a smart dog, and he

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knows what's coming next. He knows exactly what's coming next.

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But it's this this ability to take a best This

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was marginally positive. He was getting out of the house

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for a while. He could have a look out of

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the car windows. We drove. Marginally positive. But it's this

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ability to take pleasure in the such delight in the

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marginally positive. That's what interested me, because it seems that's

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something we've struggled to do. I was struck. This is

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a saddest sort of example, but I was struck recently.

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Back in April of last year. I was out running

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with Shadow and he he gave a lot. We were

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a couple of miles away from home. He gave a

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loud shriek, dropped to the floor, and his back legs

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will completely paralyze. The that things of the spinal embolisms

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or a bit of card lidge had worked as way

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into his blood supply to his spine, and the result

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was he was He was paralyzed for about five minutes

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or so. And the thing he did when this happened

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always kind of struggle with me, because I think it's

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it's again. It speaks to the idea of the marginally positive.

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And so when he fell, he was lying in the

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sun and Miami's son, you know, unpleasant for a dog.

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So what he did was use his He wouldn't let

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me anywhere near him because he was he was terrified.

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But he used his front legs to drag himself into

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the shade about twenty feet into the shape.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And what's the sort of guiding kind of theme, Well,

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it's it's okay, this is awful. Right, I'm paralyzed. I

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don't know what's going on, but at least in this minute,

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I'm marginally better off than i was in the previous

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minute because I'm out of the son. I think there's

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something too that that humans can and probably need to learn.

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Speaker 1: I think so too. Hey, we're chatting with Professor Mark Rollins,

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and he is at the University of Miami. He's written

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a number of books. It just came out. It's called

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The Word of Dog. What our canine companions can teach

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us about living a good life? Lord, we need our

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dogs more than ever now. So we're going to dive

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in a little bit deeper because there's like basically like

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four tenants or four points that we might have the

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good professor identify. But we're going to take that quick break,

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so sit stay. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: Time for a walk on the red car.

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Speaker 2: But of course all behave. We'll be backing off flash

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right after these messages.

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Speaker 5: You know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what

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if you can give them one more? The Give Them

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ten movement is on a mission to help give cats

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an extra life, how with Spain and neoter. Spain or

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neotering your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life

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and it helps control free roaming cat populations too. Learn

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more about the benefits of spee and neoter and meet

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Scooter the neoter pat at Give Them ten dot org.

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That's give them t e n dot org.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk past it. Let's done.

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Speaker 5: Pet Talk about Life Radio, Headline.

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Speaker 2: Radio, Petlight Radio dot com.

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Speaker 6: Hi, this is Lily Tomlin and I invite you to

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listen to the Old Behave Show with ardenmore on pet

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Life Radio.

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Speaker 2: We're back from the lot. Just check the paper and

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we had our record showing at the box the letterbox

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that is now back to Oh Behave.

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Speaker 1: Here's Arden, welcome back to the Old Behave Show on

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pet Life Radio.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host Ardenmore.

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Speaker 1: Our special guest is Professor Mark Rowlins, and he is

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at the University of Miami. He's written a number of books.

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The latest is called The Word of Dog. I can

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just see now everybody getting tattoos now your inspiration. But

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Professor Mark, you talked about the fact that there are

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like four tenants. Maybe maybe I'm using the wrong word,

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but you say dogs are natural philosophers because and I

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want you to explain that and then we'll go to

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the other three if you don't mind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, originally Sogrity said dogs are natural philosophers, but I

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think he was just joking. It was a bad pun

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on So's part. But I think there's something to it. Actually, yeah,

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I do too. And it's not that they hell, let's

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do a bit of philosophy, And it's not like that.

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It's it's rather that in the way they live, they

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can help cure certain certain philosophical afflictions that have come

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over us if you like philosophy. Philosophy is a bit

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like pavo, you know, But whereas PAVO effects only dogs,

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philosophy effects humans. But it is it is an affliction,

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I think, and dogs can be the cure if you

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know how to if you know how to look well.

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Speaker 1: I took a philosophy course in college at Purdue and

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I got a C plus. It was my lowest score

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like lass, but I just remember, I think it was

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Confucius might have said, to know what you know and

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to know what you don't know, that is true knowledge.

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And I just remembered in my I always needed to

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start answering my essay questions on test with always a question.

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But I mean, I think sometimes we don't have to

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know everything. Dogs don't know everything, And I've just wondered,

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what would Confucius say about dogs?

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Speaker 4: Well, the great thing about dogs is that they know things,

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but they don't know that they know things, and that's

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because they lack an ability that we have. We're very

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keen on this ability. We think it makes this great,

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but in fact existence is always like swings and roundabouts.

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There are always benefits and drawbacks to any sort of development.

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So what I have in mind is the building sometimes

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called reflection. It's the ability to think about yourself and.

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Speaker 1: To you talked about it and you have a chapter mirror, mirror.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So it's the ability to think about yourself

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about what you're doing and why you're doing it. As

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soon as you do that, you'll life kind of splits

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into two.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: There's the life that you live, but there's the life

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that you think about that you scrutinize and evaluate and

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judge it. And so we humans, we always have these

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two lives. Where's a dog who doesn't do that sort

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of thing, because there's powers of reflection, a sort of

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minimal compared to us, just says this one life. I

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think that's probably why it loves its life more than

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we love ours, you know, because it only has one,

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this one life to live.

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Speaker 1: We also said that, you know, studies have shown limited

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studies that you know, when other certain animals look into

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a mirror, like a maybe a chimpanzee or orangutang, they

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also recognize their reflection. But dogs are all about the nose, right,

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so they.

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Speaker 3: Just see something.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they don't see themselves in the mirror, but they

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know all about smell.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, No, is what one thing I do know from

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all the dogs I've lived with during my life is

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the dogs do not care one little bit about how

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they look in a mirror, you know. And so whenever

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you're testing an animal for something you've got to the

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first thing you should think about is motivation. Is motivated

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to study how it looks in the mirror? Well, dogs

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are not.

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Speaker 1: They don't have personal stylist right beauty products.

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Speaker 4: Various dogs I've had have happily rolled and cow down,

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you know, and the knowing that, and it's a dog

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like back, and I care how he looks in the mirror.

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I suspect not, you know. But the other point that

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you make is that, yeah, dogs are driven by by

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sand as much as sight, in case of many dogs,

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more by sand. So there've been attempts, they've been very

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ingenious attempts to come up with sort of olfactory versions

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the mirror test. So Mark Beckoff is a biologist, lives

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in Boulder.

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Speaker 1: Column We've had him on our show.

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Speaker 4: We've had so he came up with what what colloaquially

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became known as the the yellow snow test. His dog

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jet urinates, dog eat yellow snow. Pals, Yeah, don't do that,

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So his dog urinates, leaving yellow snow. Mark puts the

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dog away, then relocates the yellow snow, and then looks

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at the amount of time as do spends sniffing his

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own urine versus the urine of other dogs, and it

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turns out he spends a lot more time in the

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urine of other dogs. Does this mean he has a

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sense of self that he recognizes urine has this? I

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think there are other explanations that don't, don't impor but.

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Speaker 3: No, I like that.

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Speaker 1: Another thing you brought up in your book word of

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Dog is dogs find joy in simplicity. I mean, we

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can make our life far too complicated. We need to

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take a hit the pause button. Yeah it's pun intended, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No, I think that's exactly right. And it's this.

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It's again, it's another drawback of this capacity for reflection.

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We become troubles creatures. You know, I have this belief

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a dog believes things show shadow gets out onto the

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canal and believes there's an iguana close by and then charges.

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You know, that's a belief. But our believes are different

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because we have beliefs and we start worrying about them,

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fretting about it. You know, Oh, I believe this, But

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should I? You know, do I have enough evidence to

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believe it? Or don't die? What will other people think

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of me if if I believe this? And that's why

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our lives become complicated. Is this this baleful capacity for reflection?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just don't over complicate happiness.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, precisely.

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Speaker 1: Now you also say that dogs find value in the

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unexamined life. They've got instinct. They've got really good instinct.

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So what do you mean by that.

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Speaker 4: Well, the examined life is a life way you think

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about yourself. You wonder what a should up? Yeah, that

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sort of thing. You know I've done that? Could I

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have done it better? Because should I have done something different?

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You know? A dog is unlike they say, well, I've

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picked up this stick out on my wall this morning,

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Should I have picked up that other stick? In stand?

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That's not it's not something that the road left travel.

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Speaker 1: Or I got a second place in agility. If I

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would have gone through those little up and down that

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ramp like two seconds faster, I would have worn They're

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not doing that right precisely.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So their lives are not examined in that sense.

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And you know, there's benefits to having examined life, but

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there's also drawbacks, and I was interested in the drawbacks.

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Speaker 1: The last one I wanted to ask about was you

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say that love and commitment are the cornerstones of canine philosophy.

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You know, we've had Socrates a long time. I've even

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been to Greece a bit, Parthenon and all that gay

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toga man, But I'm kind of more of a champion

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of the dogs and their philosophy. What do you mean

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by that? Love and commitment are the cornerstones of canine philosophy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, commitments, as I used it, was basically about the

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lack of reflection. So you're committed to something such as

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a belief, for example, when you don't think about it,

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you don't worry about it, you just act on it. Yeah,

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when you committed that way, you have a kind of love.

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I think for what you're doing that the creature who

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is more troubled like we are, who worries about its

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motivations and its actions and whether it could done things differently,

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can't can't love its life as much as a creature

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that's just committed to doing what it's committed to.

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Speaker 1: So they kind of were the probably inspiration for just

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Do It by Nike.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I think I think Nike could have run

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without a bit more you know, a lot more dogs

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in Nike.

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Speaker 1: We could have made them a lot more money, Professor Mark,

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I mean, seriously, the.

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Speaker 4: Dogs don't with negas, No, they don't.

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Speaker 1: Thank goodness, I'm so glad so you say. I know

404
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it's hard because it's just a show, a brief show,

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and the book is something I want everybody to read

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and have their dog by their side and really just

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listen and reflect. But the word of dog, I really

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enjoyed it. My dogs are ConA and Emma. They hung

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out with me, we read the book. You know, I

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think they actually turned the corner on a couple pages.

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They really really liked because I think on page thirty

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eight you kind of had a bone to pick with Socrates, yes,

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because you said that dogs don't do the self examination

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with the mirror mirror test, and ConA and Emma concurred.

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Speaker 4: Oh good, I'm glad to hear that.

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Speaker 1: So what's your take home message for people blessed to

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have a dog or two in their life as you have?

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That made you? You know you wrote this book. But

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we live in crazy times now. There's a lot of

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division politically, socially, whatever. So how can dogs help us?

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We need them, We need a laugh. Yeah, the philosophy.

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Speaker 4: Dogs will show you all any number of things. And

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it's all to do whether you see these things. It's

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all to do with the willingness to remain open to

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what they're trying to show you. You know, I mean

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it took me long enough. I mean I've been walking

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shadow on the canal for years before it finally twigged,

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you know, oh yeah, wait, yeah, so but eventually I

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got this. So it's remaining open to what your dog

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is showing you when you see kind of delight in

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even the most marginally marginally beneficial, marginally attractive sort of

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circumstances like.

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Speaker 1: Riding with you to pick up your son at school.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, delight in the mind positive. I think that's

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something we can we can definitely learn from them because

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light is overwhelming, It can be overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely just curious as a cat, Professor Mark, what if

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you could have a rebirth, would you come back as

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a human or a dog?

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Speaker 4: That's a very good question. I don't think there's an answer,

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because I couldn't come back as a dog. It wouldn't

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be me.

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Speaker 1: Oh look at the professor, yeah, baby slack.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, very fine. It just wouldn't be me.

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And so what we're imagining here is a case where

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a dog comes back but we think it's me, but

447
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it's not really me because I can't be a dog. Unfortunately, Barnett, I.

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Speaker 1: Was trying to get your movie rights to the next book.

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I was trying, how do people find out about you

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and get their pause on your book, The Word of Dog?

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Speaker 4: Well, the book, that's easy. It's sold where wherever books

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is sold. Basically, how do people get the I have

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no social media. I just don't do it. I'm sorry

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about Sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: Go say hi to him at the University of Miami, guys,

456
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he's there. Well, I really have enjoyed you being a

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guest on our show. I hope I try to impress

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you with my knowledge of philosophers.

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Speaker 4: You yeah, you did, you certainly did.

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Speaker 1: I feel they're human because of the dogs and the

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cats in my life, and I think people we need

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to pay a little more attention to them because they

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can just make us a better home. Don't you agree?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I agree completely?

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Speaker 1: All right, Hey, everybody, I'm so glad we've had Professor

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Mark Rollins from the University of Miami on our show.

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Get his book, The Word of Dog. I also want

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to do a shout out to another Mark. He is

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Mark Winter. He is the producer of Pet Life Radio.

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We are the largest pet radio network on the planet

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and this humbly this show obi have has been on

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the air since two thousand and seven, making us the

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longest running weekly pet podcast.

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Speaker 3: On the planet.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of peas Professor Mark right.

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Speaker 3: Hey.

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Speaker 1: I also have a pretty cool kicktail e newsletter comes

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out once a month four Legged Life.

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Speaker 3: Check it out. We got prizes.

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Speaker 1: I want you guys to sign up.

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Speaker 3: We're going to.

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Speaker 1: Be promoting shows like what we just had with Professor Mark.

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I also teach pet First aid with my dog and

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cat all over the world in person and via zoom.

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Check out pet First Day for you because you actually will.

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Speaker 3: Have fun learning.

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Speaker 1: So until next time, this is your flea free host

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Ardmore delivering just two words to all you two three

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and four lakers out there.

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Speaker 2: All behave coasta around the world. It's all behaved with

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art and more. Find out why cats and dogs do

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the things they do, and you get the latest buzz

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from Wagging Tongues and tails and rin tin tinsel Town.

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From famous pet experts and best selling authors to television

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and movie stars. You'll get great tail wagging pet tips,

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and have.

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Speaker 4: A ver flying fun time.

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Speaker 2: All behave with America's pet entertainer Ardmore, every week on

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demand only on petlife Radio dot com