1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,359 Speaker 1: I want you to picture something. It is November twenty seventh, 2 00:00:03,439 --> 00:00:07,480 nineteen forty four. Yeah, you're sitting in the cockpit of 3 00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:11,279 a P sixty one Black Widow night fighter. The air 4 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:15,160 isn't just cold, it is that sharp, metallic freezing temperature 5 00:00:15,199 --> 00:00:18,519 that cuts right through the sheeraling flight jackets and just 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,239 settles deep in your bones. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 2: And your over enemy territories. 8 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: At night exactly, you are lt Ed Schlutter and you 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,679 are patrolling what the pilot's then called the ink black 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,239 void above the Rhine Valley. 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,799 Speaker 2: That is, I mean, a terrifying place to be in 12 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,000 late nineteen forty four, that quarter of darkness wasn't just 13 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:39,200 empty space. It was the friction point between the advancing 14 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,280 Allied armies and the crumbling, desperate heart of the Third Right. 15 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:45,759 Speaker 1: Anything could be out there, literally anything, And it's supposed 16 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:47,960 to be a routine intruder patrol. You're hunting for German 17 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,679 convoys moving under the cover of darkness, maybe looking for 18 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:52,719 the you know, the exhaust trails of a late night bomber. 19 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:57,200 But tonight the radio traffic feels well, it feels wrong 20 00:00:57,359 --> 00:01:00,640 long how it's frantic, It's edge with a kind of 21 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:04,840 panic that doesn't fit the usual combat chatter. And then 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,040 your radar operator, the guy whose entire existence is focused 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,760 on just staring into that green glowing scope, he stiffens up. 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,799 He calls out a contact. But here's the thing. The 25 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:18,239 contact makes absolutely no sense. 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 2: This is that moment, isn't it the moment where the 27 00:01:20,719 --> 00:01:23,239 physics we all understand just sort of decides to take 28 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:26,120 a holiday. The blip on the radar isn't behaving like 29 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:28,799 a Messerschmidt. It is not behaving like a Junker's bomber. 30 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,400 The velocity, I mean, it defies the mechanical limitations of 31 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:33,200 a piston engine. 32 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:36,159 Speaker 1: It even defies the capabilities of the new jet turbines 33 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:39,519 that Allied intelligence had been whispering about me two sixty two. 34 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: This was faster, weirder, soh schlutter. He has to look, 35 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,519 he has to verify this with his own eyes. 36 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Of course, He looks out the canopy, fighting the constant 37 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,680 vibration of those two massive Pratt and Whitney engines, straining 38 00:01:51,719 --> 00:01:53,400 his eyes against the dark, and. 39 00:01:53,319 --> 00:01:54,959 Speaker 3: He sees it and it's not a plane. 40 00:01:55,079 --> 00:01:57,439 Speaker 1: It is not a plane. It has no wings, it 41 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:02,159 has no fuselage, no tail. It is a burning pulsating 42 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:06,879 orange orb a sphere of fire, just hovering there off 43 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,840 their port wing anchored to the. 44 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,479 Speaker 2: Air, itself anchored to the air. That is such a 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,439 deeply disturbing image. It implies a total mastery over the 46 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:17,039 medium it does. It's the feeling of, you know, a 47 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,400 predator being watched by something it cannot understand, let alone fight. 48 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: So Schlutter does what any fighter pilot would do. Instinct 49 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:27,360 just kicks in. He banks hard, He pushes the throttle 50 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,120 to the firewall. 51 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: He tries to engage. 52 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:31,159 Speaker 1: He expects this thing to fall behind, you know, like 53 00:02:31,199 --> 00:02:34,159 a reflection or a flare, or even another aircraft that 54 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:36,800 just can't match the turn of a black widow. But 55 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:37,400 it doesn't. 56 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: It stays with him. 57 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:41,599 Speaker 1: It matches his maneuver instantly, No banking, no visible drag, 58 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,479 no inertia. It just it was there and now it's here. 59 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,800 It completely mocks the laws of motion. 60 00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: And that lack of inertia that is the smoking gun here, 61 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,919 It's the key. If a human pilot tried to match 62 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,599 those movements We're talking instance, stops, right angle turns at 63 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,319 hundreds of miles per hour, the g forces would turn 64 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,360 their organs into soup. 65 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,199 Speaker 1: Survivable for ten minutes, this object just dances around them. 66 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,960 It accelerates from zero to insane speeds and a heartbeat, 67 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,960 glowing with this demonic reddish orange hue, and then just 68 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,960 as quickly as it arrived, it's gone. It shoots vertically 69 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,400 straight up into the stratosphere and vanishes at a speed that, 70 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,240 like you said, would turn a human too jelly wow. 71 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,759 When they land, the debriefing is uncomfortable to see. The 72 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,599 least officers call them foo fighters. 73 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,719 Speaker 2: Right, They catch all term for these things. 74 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: They blame combat fatigue, sane elmo's fire, optical illusions. They 75 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,560 try to explain it away with weather balloons or you know, 76 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,439 swamp gas, the classics. But behind closed doors, the command 77 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:45,039 is terrified. They know it's not ghosts, it's technology. And 78 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:48,479 that brings us to today's deep dive. Welcome to thrilling Threads. 79 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,199 Speaker 2: It is great to be here to unravel this one 80 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,280 because it is a monster of a story. 81 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: Today we are pulling out a thread that leads from 82 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,240 the desperate, crumbling ruins of the Third Reich right to 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,879 the absolutely fringes of science fiction. We are investigating the Hanabu, 84 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:07,759 the persistent nagging rumor that the Nazis didn't just build 85 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,400 better praines, but that they crack the code of gravity itself. 86 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: It is a massive, massive topic. I mean, it involves 87 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,560 occult beliefs, what some have called twisted physics, and a 88 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,959 race against time that might actually, and this is the 89 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:23,800 crazy part explain some modern UFO sightings. 90 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,639 Speaker 1: It really forces you to ask a terrifying question, what 91 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,120 is that? What happens when a regime with zero morality 92 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,800 gets its hands on advanced theoretical physics? 93 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:33,439 Speaker 2: Chaos? 94 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: So let's unpack this. We need to set the stage properly. 95 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,040 It's late nineteen forty four. Germany is being dismantled block 96 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,199 by block. The writing is on the wall. Why on Earth, 97 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:44,439 in the middle of losing a ground war do they 98 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,160 pivot to building flying saucers. It sounds like, you know, 99 00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:50,000 a catastrophic misuse of resources. 100 00:04:50,079 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: To understand the machine, you have to understand the smell 101 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,800 of burning cities. I mean that almost literally. By late 102 00:04:54,879 --> 00:05:00,000 forty four, the Luftwaffe was effectively grounded, no fuel, no fuel, catastrophe, 103 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:03,879 pilot attrition. The Allied bomber streams were just darkening the 104 00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:06,680 skies by day and setting the entire horizon on fire 105 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,199 by night. Infrastructure wasn't just damaged, it was being systematically erased. 106 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: So it's total collapse, not just a retreat, but a 107 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:14,800 systemic failure. 108 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,959 Speaker 2: Precisely, and in the center of this firestorm, you have 109 00:05:18,079 --> 00:05:22,959 Hitler's mindset. It had shifted from cold arrogance to this 110 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,000 manic desperation. He had completely abandoned logistics. 111 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: He didn't care about the numbers anymore, not at all. 112 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,879 Speaker 2: He didn't care about fuel reserves or division counts. He 113 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:32,879 demanded wonderwaff and wonder weapons. 114 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: A miracle. He needed a miracle. 115 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: Yes, conventional physics had failed them. Tanks and planes, even 116 00:05:39,319 --> 00:05:42,079 their advanced jets, weren't enough to turn the tide against 117 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,000 the massive industrial output of the Allies. They needed a 118 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,720 paradigm shift. They needed to leap frog a century of 119 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,319 aerodynamic evolution. 120 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: It sounds like they were looking for a cheat code 121 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,240 for reality. Like if we can't win the chess game, 122 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:57,480 let's invent a piece that can just teleport. 123 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,519 Speaker 2: That is a perfect analogy. And because of this shift, 124 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,560 control of these dark projects also shifted. It moved away 125 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,199 from the LUFTWAFFA, the traditional air force. You know, guys, 126 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,519 like Hermann Goering, and it moved into the hands of 127 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,319 the ss the Black. 128 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,399 Speaker 1: Order, and specifically to one man. 129 00:06:13,199 --> 00:06:15,439 Speaker 2: Specifically to a man named Hans Kamler. 130 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:18,079 Speaker 1: Kemler. Now I've read a bit about him, and to 131 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,519 call him a piece of work feels like a drastic understatement. 132 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 3: It is ss overgroup infeeror Hans Kamler. 133 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 2: He viewed human life strictly as raw material, as a 134 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,879 disposable resource. He wasn't the soldier in the traditional sense. 135 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:36,319 He was an architect by trade, a civil engineer. 136 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: The most dangerous kind in that regime. 137 00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:39,959 Speaker 2: Without a doubt. He was the man who designed the 138 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,879 gas chambers at Auschwitz. He applied cold industrial efficiency to 139 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:47,240 mass murder, and now as the right collapse, this same 140 00:06:47,319 --> 00:06:50,560 man was tasked with designing the salvation of Germany. 141 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: That is a chilling resume to go from designing death 142 00:06:53,199 --> 00:06:54,800 camps to designing super weapons. 143 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,199 Speaker 2: It's the same mindset, maximum output, zero regard for the 144 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,120 human cost. He moved into these massive, hollowed out mountains 145 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,680 like in the heartshooted of Germany. 146 00:07:03,399 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: So they were immune to the bombing. 147 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,759 Speaker 2: Raids, completely immune, subterranean cathedrals of industry where the laws 148 00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:12,800 of morality, and frankly, the laws of conventional engineering were 149 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,560 totally suspended. He had an unlimited supply of slave labor 150 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,120 from concentration camps and absolutely zero oversight. 151 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: A kingdom of shadows. 152 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,839 Speaker 2: It was a kingdom of shadows where the most insane 153 00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:25,199 ideas could be prototypes. 154 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:28,279 Speaker 1: So you have this ruthless architect running the show, hiding 155 00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:30,920 in mountains, willing to burn through human lives like coal. 156 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:36,600 But the actual inspiration for the saucer that didn't come 157 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:39,720 from a military strategist, did it. The story I've read 158 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,759 says it came from some were much much stranger. 159 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,959 Speaker 2: No, it didn't come from a general. And this is 160 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:46,720 where the story goes from military history into something else, 161 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,399 something truly bizarre. The SS, especially its leadership under Himler, 162 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,040 wasn't just a military organization. 163 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: It was a cult, a death cult basically, and it had. 164 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,079 Speaker 2: Deep, deep roots in occult societies like the Thule Society 165 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,319 and the Vile Society. 166 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: Okay, can we pause on that? What were these societies? 167 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:04,600 What did they believe? 168 00:08:04,839 --> 00:08:07,959 Speaker 2: There were esoteric groups obsessed with ancient myths and lost 169 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,399 super races. They believed that the Aryan Rays were descendants 170 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:15,079 of God men from Atlantis or Hyperborea, and these god 171 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,199 men had mastered something called vrill Rill. 172 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:20,399 Speaker 1: Like a cosmic energy, a life force. 173 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: Exactly, a primal cosmic energy that could power machines, heal 174 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:26,839 the body, or destroy cities. It was the force. But 175 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,399 for Nazis, this belief system was absolutely central to the 176 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,399 SS ideology. 177 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,279 Speaker 1: So this is where the science starts to get weird. 178 00:08:34,279 --> 00:08:37,360 We're talking about magic and physics blending together, extremely weird. 179 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: You have to remember the Nazis, and specifically the SS leadership, 180 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:46,320 they actively rejected Einstein. To them, relativity and quantum mechanics 181 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:47,480 were Jewish physics. 182 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,759 Speaker 1: What did that even mean to them? Jewish physics? 183 00:08:49,919 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 2: They saw it as abstract, counterintuitive, and destructive. They looked 184 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,919 at the atom BAM research, which they knew was happening, 185 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,399 and saw it as proof it was a science focused 186 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,679 on explosion, on destruction, on taking things apart, chaos. They 187 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,440 believe that was a flawed, unclean approach to the universe. 188 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: So if they rejected explosion, what was the alternative? What 189 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:08,720 did they want? 190 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:12,039 Speaker 2: They wanted a Germanic physics, a physics based on nature, 191 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,320 on life, on what they saw as order and the 192 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,519 core principle of this new physics was implosion. 193 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:21,279 Speaker 1: Implosion. Okay, this is a concept I really struggle with. 194 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,879 We're so used to engines that go bang inside a 195 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:28,200 cylinder to push a piston. How does implusion power a machine. 196 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: It's a total reversal of our engineering philosophy. Yeah. Instead 197 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,000 of creating heat, pressure, and expansion to generate force, they 198 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,919 believe true power came from cooling, suction, and contraction. They 199 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,919 look to the vortex, the spiral, the whirlpool. 200 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: And this brings us to Victor Schauberger. 201 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: This brings us to the trout guy. 202 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: I love this anecdote because it's so absurd and yet 203 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,360 in a weird way, so observant. 204 00:09:51,639 --> 00:09:54,879 Speaker 2: The trout guy. Victor Schauberger wasn't a soldier, he wasn't 205 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,519 an SS officer. He was an Austrian forester and a naturalist. 206 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:02,399 He spent years, decades even just watching water flow in 207 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,120 pristine mountain streams, and. 208 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: He noticed something about the trout. 209 00:10:06,039 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: He noticed that trout could hold their position in a 210 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,799 raging current with seemingly no effort. They weren't swimming hard, 211 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:15,440 they were just hanging there. Or even more impossibly, they 212 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,559 could swim up a waterfall at incredible speeds. 213 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: Which, if you think about it from a simple physics perspective, 214 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,000 shouldn't be possible. The force of the water pushing against 215 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:27,679 them is immense. It violates the drag equation exactly. 216 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,799 Speaker 2: Schauberger theorized that all of modern technology, our propellers, our jets, 217 00:10:32,799 --> 00:10:37,080 our turbines, was fundamentally wrong because it was working against nature. 218 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,960 Oh so, combustion engines create heat and pressure, that's expansion. 219 00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:46,320 He called it explosive technology. Nature, he argued, uses an implosion, 220 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,919 a cooling, spiraling, inward pulling vortex that generates immense power 221 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:51,600 without waste. 222 00:10:51,759 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: And the trout. 223 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: He believed the trout was manipulating the flow of water 224 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,879 through its gills to create a tiny, powerful pressure vacuum 225 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,519 in front of it, essentially getting sucked up stream by 226 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:04,600 its own vortex. It wasn't pushing against the river, it 227 00:11:04,639 --> 00:11:06,080 was making the river pull it forward. 228 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,639 Speaker 1: So the SS, in their absolute desperation, finds this forester 229 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:12,559 and tells him, build us a machine that works. 230 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: Like a trout. 231 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: Essentially yes. In nineteen forty four, the SS located Shawburder 232 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:21,200 and forced him, using a team of prisoner engineers from 233 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,639 the mouthausand concentration camp to build a machine that sucks 234 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:27,320 itself through the air rather than pushing against it. 235 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: And this is that convergence of madness and method you 236 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:30,799 were talking about. 237 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: It's the absolute peak of it. You had real occultists 238 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,279 in one room conducting seances, trying to channel blueprints from 239 00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:41,960 ancient aryan god mens seriously absolutely, and in the next 240 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:45,120 room you had hard nosed SS engineers like Kamler who 241 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,120 didn't care about frill, but who realized that a disc 242 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:51,399 shaped craft that could hover, make ninety three returns and 243 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,080 take off vertically from a hidden forest was a tactical 244 00:11:54,159 --> 00:11:54,879 dream come true. 245 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Because if you don't have any runways left because the 246 00:11:57,039 --> 00:11:59,919 Allies have bombed them all into rubble, a flying saucers 247 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:02,200 actually the perfect military. 248 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: Solution, precisely. It's solves the biggest logistics problem they had. 249 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,600 But now you know they actually had to build the thing. 250 00:12:07,799 --> 00:12:10,039 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into the nuts and bolts, or I 251 00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:13,279 guess the lack of bolts in this case. What did 252 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,559 this thing, the Hanaboo, actually look like, Because when I 253 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,440 think not to UFO, my mind goes to that silly 254 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,159 movie Iron Sky. But the reality was much much grimier. 255 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,759 Speaker 2: Oh, much grimeier. Forget sleek, polished sci Fi ships. If 256 00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:30,039 we pieced together the alleged blueprints and the scattered interrogation 257 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,519 transcripts from after the war, we aren't looking at something elegant. 258 00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:34,799 The hanaboo Oh was. 259 00:12:34,799 --> 00:12:37,399 Speaker 3: A brute a flying tanks, a flying fortress. 260 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: It's about twenty five meters in diameter. 261 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: That's huge. That's bigger than a B seventeen bombers wingspan. 262 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 2: Massive. It looked like an overturned saucer placed on top 263 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,639 of another one, creating this sort of thick, lenticular shape. 264 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:51,120 It had a central bubble cockpit on top, and you 265 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,759 could see these cannon ports bristling from the sides. 266 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:56,519 Speaker 1: And critically, you said, no rivets. Why is that so important? 267 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: Because rivets are a weak point. The whole was supposedly 268 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:04,080 cast in a single piece using a specialized heat resistant 269 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,639 alloy called Victolin. They knew that if this thing worked 270 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:10,600 as advertised, this thrusses and the heat from the drive 271 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:14,840 system would melt conventional aluminum or just rip thousands of 272 00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:16,159 rivets apart in midair. 273 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: So it was built for conditions that no normal aircraft 274 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,919 could ever withstand. 275 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: Exactly. And then there's the engine, the thule Atachionator. 276 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,879 Speaker 1: That name alone, it sounds like something a comic book 277 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:28,039 villain invented in his volcano layer. 278 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:30,919 Speaker 2: The name is pure a cult theater, but the concept 279 00:13:30,919 --> 00:13:34,200 behind it was terrifyingly specific. It wasn't an engine in 280 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,799 the traditional sense. It was more like a controlled doomsday 281 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,080 device at the core of the ship. 282 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,879 Speaker 1: How did it work? What was the theory? 283 00:13:40,039 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 2: And used a massive, heavily shielded, rotating centrifuge, and inside 284 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,919 this centrifuge was liquid mercury or in some reports, a 285 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,000 mercury based violet amalgam called red mercury. 286 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: Mercury that's incredibly dense and incredibly toxic. 287 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,159 Speaker 2: Why mercury A few reasons. It's a liquid metal, it's 288 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,799 highly conductive, and it is incredibly heavy. The idea, according 289 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,720 to their twisted physics, was to spin this dense liquid 290 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,440 at tens of thousands of urpms. Okay, Spitting this mass 291 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,679 at that velocity was theorized to create a rotating electromagnetic 292 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,559 field so powerful, so intense that it would interact with 293 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,279 the local gravitational field. It would essentially cancel out mass. 294 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,639 It created gravity shield so wait. 295 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,879 Speaker 1: Let me see if I'm getting this. It's not flying 296 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:30,720 by aerodynamics. It's not using wings to create lift, it's 297 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:33,720 not using rockets to create thrust. It's creating a bubble 298 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:35,600 around itself where gravity doesn't apply. 299 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: That's it, You got it. It's not flying, it's falling upward, 300 00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:42,000 sideways whichever direction you want, becomes weightless within its own field, 301 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,120 like a cork in water, or as one of the 302 00:14:44,159 --> 00:14:46,600 descriptions put it, it would slide through the air like 303 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,000 wet soap on a countertop. Frictionless inertialless. 304 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: That explains the P sixty one encounter. If you have 305 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,679 no effective mass, you have no inertia. You can make 306 00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:57,639 a ninety degree turn at MOK two because there's no momentum, 307 00:14:57,679 --> 00:14:59,960 no force trying to keep you going straight. Your organ 308 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,440 don't get turned to mush. 309 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,279 Speaker 2: Theoretically, yes, that was the dream, and the sensory details 310 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:08,159 from the witnesses and the poor engineers who had to 311 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:09,600 work on it are terrifying. 312 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:10,639 Speaker 1: What did it sound like? 313 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: It apparently produced a low, deep humming vibration that you 314 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,879 felt in your teeth and your bones, a very unsettling frequency, 315 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:21,919 and as the RPMs of the centrifuge increased, that hum 316 00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:24,600 would rise to a deafening, piercing shriek. 317 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:27,039 Speaker 1: And the visual that glowing orange or of that ELTI 318 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:27,720 Schlutter saw. 319 00:15:27,799 --> 00:15:31,279 Speaker 2: That's what they call the ionization effect. The electromagnetic field 320 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:34,320 from the drive was allegedly so strong that it stripped 321 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,399 electrons from the air molecules around the craft. It literally 322 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,879 superheated the air, shrouding the ship in a hazy blue. 323 00:15:40,799 --> 00:15:43,039 Speaker 1: Violet plasma oh platum of field yes. 324 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: Which as a side effect, also allegedly made it invisible 325 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,679 to radar. While radar works by bouncing radio waves off 326 00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:52,799 a solid object and timing the return, but plasma absorbs 327 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,639 radio waves, it doesn't reflect them, so they inadvertently created 328 00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:59,639 a plasma stealth cloak decades before the F one seventeen. 329 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: Wow. 330 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: Okay, so this sounds incredible on paper and inertialless radar, 331 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:08,480 invisible super fast interceptor. But this is where the dream 332 00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:12,120 meets the absolute nightmare, isn't it? Building and flying this 333 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,919 Leviathan must have been hell on Earth. 334 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,039 Speaker 2: A complete and utter nightmare. You're spinning a giant, heavy 335 00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:23,759 metal disk filled with liquid mercury at incredible speeds. What 336 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:24,559 does that create. 337 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: It's basically a gyroscope, a massive. 338 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,399 Speaker 2: One exactly, and anyone who has ever played with a 339 00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,320 toy gyroscope knows the fundamental rule. A spinning disc wants 340 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,519 to stay flat. It resists any attempt to tilt it. 341 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,360 This is the gyroscopic effect multiplied. 342 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:41,639 Speaker 1: By thousands, So steering this thing would have been agony. 343 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,559 Speaker 2: Almost impossible. The pilots didn't use alerons or flaps, They're 344 00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:47,080 weren't any. They had to manipulate the magnetic field itself, 345 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:51,159 creating imbalances to make the craft fall in a specific direction. 346 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:53,799 They were literally fighting the core physics of their own 347 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,759 engine just to make a simple left. 348 00:16:55,559 --> 00:16:57,879 Speaker 1: Turn, and the physical toll on the crew. We talked 349 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:00,440 about the lack of g forces during maneuvers, but living 350 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,799 inside a high intensity electromagnic field for hours can't be healthy. 351 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,599 Speaker 2: It was a torture chamber. The documents that survived talk 352 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,880 about pilots experiencing constant metallic tastes in their mouths, blinding headaches, 353 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:17,640 severe disorientation, and periods of lost time. Lost time they'd 354 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,519 land after a test flight and have no memory of 355 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:22,839 the last hour. Their brains were literally being scrambled by 356 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:23,839 the high frequency fields. 357 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,319 Speaker 1: It sounds like a combination of radiation sickness and a 358 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:27,279 severe concussion. 359 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: And the interior. Forget the sleek bridges you see in 360 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,960 science fiction. This was a steampunk nightmare. It was all 361 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,880 heavy bake light switches, thick brass dials that buzzed under 362 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,880 your fingers, massive thick rubber cables snaking across the floor, 363 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,599 and the constant smell of ozone and sweat. 364 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: And no windows. 365 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: Right, I read that no windows at the theoretical speeds 366 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,640 and altitudes they were aiming for, a window is just 367 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,319 a structural weakness, a hole waiting to happen. The pilots 368 00:17:54,319 --> 00:17:56,079 were encased in metal, flying blind. 369 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,319 Speaker 3: How did they see anything. 370 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: They used a system of periscopes and very early primitive 371 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640 television screens that showed a grainy, black and white view 372 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,079 of the outside. 373 00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: That is claustrophobic, beyond belief. You're in a shrieking, vibrating 374 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,359 metal tomb, your head is splitting open, and you're trying 375 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,880 to fly by watching a fuzzy TV screen. 376 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: And that brings us to the story of the Hanabou 377 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,839 Second disaster. This is the part that for me really 378 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,680 highlights just how lethally dangerous. This bleeding edge tech was right. 379 00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: This is a tough one. 380 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: It is horrific, but it illustrates the real price of 381 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,519 this leapfrog technology. They scaled up the prototype. The Hanabou 382 00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:37,599 second was bigger, designed for a crew of nine, and 383 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,119 was supposed to be capable of supersonic speeds. 384 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: So they were confident enough to put more people in it. 385 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,839 Speaker 2: They were arrogant. During a tethered hover test inside one 386 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,720 of the underground hangars, the mercury centrifuge destabilized. We don't 387 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,160 know why. Maybe a bearing failed, maybe the alloy cracked 388 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,680 under the strain, but the massive spinning core started to. 389 00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Wobble like a dying top. 390 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: Exactly like a dying top. All saucer began to show 391 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:02,839 shut her violently, and then it just it flipped and 392 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,759 the containment field for the mercury breached. A superheated toxic 393 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,279 mercury vapor flooded the cabin instantly. We are not talking 394 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:13,960 about a fire here. The crew didn't burn in the 395 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,839 traditional sense. They were and this is the quote from 396 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,400 a translated German document, chemically cooked from the inside out. 397 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: What does that even mean? 398 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,279 Speaker 2: The mercury bonded with their organic tissue at a molecular level. 399 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,079 When the recovery team finally managed to get the hatch open, 400 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,680 they found the nine men fused to their seats, their 401 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,319 bodies turned into grotesque metallic statues. 402 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,799 Speaker 1: Good Lord, that is barely comprehensible, and yet they kept building. 403 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:40,279 They didn't stop after that. They even planned a dreadnought, 404 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:40,880 the Hanabu. 405 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,039 Speaker 2: The third Madness knows no breaks. Their ambition just grew. 406 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,200 They planned a craft that was seventy meters wide, that's 407 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,200 almost the wingspan of a seven forty seven, a. 408 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,279 Speaker 1: Flying aircraft carrier, basically. 409 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,279 Speaker 2: Armed with naval cannons, capable of carrying a small bomber underneath, 410 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,240 designed to stay in the stratosphere for weeks at a time. 411 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,799 They were cannibalizing the tire conventional war effort, stealing rare 412 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,799 earth metals, copper, and all the mercury they could find 413 00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:08,920 from tank and U boat production to build these spaceships 414 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,519 while their factory roofs were literally being bombed in. 415 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: It's the ultimate sunk cost fallacy, isn't it. We've come 416 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,720 this far, We've sacrificed so much. If this works, we win. 417 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:20,160 If it doesn't. We're all dead. 418 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: Anyway, precisely, and that brings us to the final desperate 419 00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:27,400 days March nineteen forty five. The end is near. Did 420 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,039 these things ever actually see combat? Or was it all 421 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:32,480 just testing and death and disaster? 422 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: Right? Did they ever get one to work well enough 423 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,000 to shoot at anything? 424 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: Well, this is where we enter the realm of the 425 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,759 hypothetical encounter. It's based on fragmented Allied pilot reports and 426 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,599 some post war hearsay, but there are stories. 427 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:45,319 Speaker 1: Let's hear one. 428 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,319 Speaker 2: Imagine you're a tail gunner on a B seventeen flying Fortress. 429 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:51,240 You call it a lucky Lady. You're cold, you're exhausted, 430 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:54,240 You're on your twentieth mission over Germany. Suddenly your waistgunner 431 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:55,839 screams over the intercom. 432 00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: And you look out. 433 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: You look out, and you see three disc shaped shadow 434 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:03,400 rising from the black forest below, not climbing like a plane, 435 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:05,920 just rising like an elevator. 436 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: It must have looked like nothing they had ever seen before. 437 00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:10,400 He fires, right, that's his job. 438 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 2: He opens up with his twin fifty cows. But the 439 00:21:13,759 --> 00:21:16,759 discs just jump. They moved through the bomber formation with 440 00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,680 no inertia. They're at twelve o'clock high, and in the 441 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,880 blink of an eye there at six o'clock low. 442 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,079 Speaker 1: Impossible to track. 443 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: Impossible. But here's the catch, the fatal flaw. Inside the disc, 444 00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:31,240 it's total chaos. The German commander is fighting the machine, 445 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,799 screaming at his crew. 446 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: Because it's too fast. The human element can't keep up. 447 00:21:35,519 --> 00:21:38,799 Speaker 2: Precisely, the Hanabu was a racehorse trying to pull a plow. 448 00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:41,880 It was an interceptor designed for mock speeds, but its 449 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,319 weapons were conventional, manually aimed cannons. 450 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 3: I see the problem. 451 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: Imagine trying to aim a bolt action rifle while riding 452 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,480 the world's fastest, most unpredictable roller coaster. The gunners were 453 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:54,839 disoriented by the magnetic fields. They were fighting to stay conscious. 454 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,440 They couldn't aim, so. 455 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,799 Speaker 1: They buzzed the bombers. Terrified the crews. 456 00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:01,599 Speaker 2: Scared him half to death, but they scored no hits. 457 00:22:01,759 --> 00:22:04,559 They couldn't bring a single bomber down, so. 458 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: It was a psychological weapon, not a practical one. 459 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 2: It became the Foo Fighter, a scary light in the 460 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,759 sky that Allied command couldn't explain. But tactically it was 461 00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:17,839 a complete failure. It couldn't stop the carpet bombing, so. 462 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: Kamler he must realize it's over. The project is a failure, 463 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,119 the war is lost. The Soviets are just ten miles 464 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,799 away from his mountain fortress, so they can hear the artillery. 465 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,400 What happens to all this tech? 466 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: Protocol? Eternity? That was the order total destruction. Kamler knew 467 00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:37,240 that if the Allies, or even worse in his mind, 468 00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:40,240 the Soviets got their hands on this technology, Germany was 469 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:43,799 finished forever or worse, the enemy would rule the world 470 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,359 with their own super weapon. So he orders the slate 471 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,079 wiped clean. 472 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:48,079 Speaker 1: How did they do it? 473 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,039 Speaker 2: His loyal SS engineers packed se four explosives into the 474 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:54,440 mercury drives. They doused the cockpits and gasoline and systematically 475 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,960 burned every single blueprint, every calculation, every research note. 476 00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:00,519 Speaker 1: The description of the explosions is in ten I read. 477 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:03,480 They used magnesium flares to turn those special alloys into 478 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,319 malten slag. 479 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 2: They wanted to leave nothing but ash and melted metal, 480 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:09,359 and then they collapsed the mountain roofs on top of 481 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,359 the hangars. They buried the dream in millions of tons 482 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:13,319 of rock and soil. 483 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,279 Speaker 1: So when the Soviets arrived. 484 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:19,519 Speaker 2: They found nothing, just smoking ruin, scorched concrete, and a 485 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:23,759 few confusing, curved metal scraps that looked like they didn't 486 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:24,640 belong on this earth. 487 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: But the story doesn't end there, does it. The war ends, 488 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,880 but the hunt for the technology just begins. 489 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,319 Speaker 2: Oh kicks into high gear Operation paper Clip. The Americans 490 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,880 and the Soviets were in a frantic race, looting everything 491 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,680 they could find. They were just looking for V two rockets. 492 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:43,480 They were racing to grab the brains behind the madness. 493 00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:46,319 Speaker 1: Did they find anything, any proof of the Hanaboo? 494 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: They found wind tunnel models of saucer shaped craft. They 495 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,880 found interrogation reports where low level German engineers talked about 496 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,799 working on flying turtles or spinning tops. But they found 497 00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,000 no hardware, no working engine. 498 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: But they got the scientists, and suddenly, in the nineteen 499 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,559 fifties we start to see some very weird things popping 500 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,079 up in American airspace. The Avrocar. 501 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,279 Speaker 3: The Avrocar a US funded Canadian project. 502 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,519 Speaker 2: If you look at a picture of it, it looks 503 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:16,559 exactly like a neutered, less threatening Hanabu. 504 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: It's a dead ringer for a classic fifties flying saucer. 505 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:20,559 Speaker 2: It is. 506 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,039 Speaker 3: It used es central turberotor to create a cushion. 507 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,599 Speaker 2: Of air to lift it. It failed miserably. It could 508 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,119 go faster than about thirty miles per hour and was 509 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,440 hopelessly unstable. But the design lineage is just it's suspiciously similar. 510 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:38,880 It looks like someone trying to reverse engineer a half 511 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,880 remembered blueprint. 512 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: And let's not forget nineteen forty seven Kenneth Arnold the 513 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,079 first major flying saucer report. Near Mount Rainier in Washington. 514 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,839 Speaker 2: Just two years after the war. A private pilot sees 515 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,440 a string of nine crescent shaped objects flying at impossible speeds. 516 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:57,160 Is it a coincidence or is it captured German prototypes 517 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,519 being tested in secret over the remote Pacific Northwest. It 518 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:02,400 raises a huge, huge question. 519 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: And then you can draw a line, a technological thread 520 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,119 all the way to modern stealth tech. The B two 521 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:08,000 Spirit bomber. 522 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely think about the shape of the B two. It's 523 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,559 a flying wing. It has no vertical stabilizers, no tail, 524 00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:16,039 by all the conventional laws of aerodynamics that you just 525 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:17,440 flick over and fall out of the sky. 526 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,599 Speaker 1: So how does it fly? 527 00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: It relies on massive constant computing power. A bank of 528 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,279 computers makes thousands of microadjustments per second to its control 529 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,880 surfaces to force an inherently unstable shape to fly straight, which. 530 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,039 Speaker 1: Is the exact same conceptual problem Nazi engineers were struggling 531 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:36,160 with manually exactly. 532 00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: They had the right idea and unstable shape is more maneuverable, 533 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,519 but they didn't have the computer processing power to control it. 534 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,640 We just waited until we had the silicon to solve 535 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,680 the twisted physics. 536 00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:49,319 Speaker 1: There's also the myth of survival, which we have to 537 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:51,039 touch on the Last Battalion. 538 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: The legend, yeah, the story that in the final days, 539 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,839 a fleet of advanced U boats smuggled Hanabu components, scientists 540 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,160 and SS leadership to a secret base two eleven in 541 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,880 Neuschwabin Land in Antarctica. 542 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: Ice fortress at the bottom of the world. 543 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 2: It's almost certainly a fantasy, but it speaks to our psychology, 544 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,200 doesn't it. We want to believe the monsters escaped to 545 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,480 an ice fortress. It makes for a better, more complete narrative. 546 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:17,680 The reality is probably more mundane and maybe more disturbing, 547 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,759 which is what that the technology was simply absorbed piece 548 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:25,079 by piece into the black budget military industrial complexes of 549 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:25,680 the victors. 550 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: So let's bring this all back to reality. What is 551 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,279 your final analysis on this, After all the research, all 552 00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:34,440 the stories, did they actually build a working flying saucer? 553 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: I think yeah, Yes. They built hulls, they built engines, 554 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,799 They poured blood, treasure, and human lives into it. The 555 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,519 evidence for the existence of the project is very compelling. 556 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: But did it work? Did it fly like the legends say? 557 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 2: It flew? But it was uncontrollable. It was a chaotic beast, 558 00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:54,440 much like the Reich itself. It was a profound, terrifying 559 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,200 proof of concept, but it wasn't a reliable weapon. 560 00:26:57,279 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: But it proved a terrifying point it did. 561 00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:03,279 Speaker 2: It proved that if you completely sacrifice morality, insanity, if 562 00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:05,559 you don't care about the cost, you can tear up 563 00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:07,799 the laws of physics. You can break the rules if 564 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:09,319 you're willing to pay the price in blood. 565 00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: That's a chilling thought. It implies that scientific progress isn't 566 00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:16,400 always linear or noble. Sometimes it takes a long, dark 567 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,039 detour through madness. So when you see a strange light 568 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,240 moving with impossible speed in the sky today, is it 569 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:27,319 alien or is it the final perfected echo of a 570 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,519 weapon forged in a collapsing mountain in nineteen forty five. 571 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 2: That's the question, isn't it? Technological ambition is neutral. It 572 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,319 doesn't care if it's wielded by a democracy or a dictator. 573 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,559 Gravity doesn't care about your politics, and that I think 574 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,599 is the ultimate lesson of the Hanabu. 575 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,079 Speaker 1: So here's the question I want to leave all of 576 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:46,759 you with today, and I really want to hear your 577 00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:49,559 thoughts on this thread. If we assume the core of 578 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:52,079 the story is true, that the tech was real and 579 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,759 was captured, do you think we've been seeing alien crafts 580 00:27:54,759 --> 00:27:57,240 for the last eighty years or just the quiet, secret 581 00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:00,240 evolution of a ghost from the Black Forest. Are we 582 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:02,400 looking at visitors from another world or are we just 583 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,839 looking at a piece of our own dark history reflecting 584 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,720 back at us. Let us know in the comments. 585 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:08,759 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Thrilling Threads. 586 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: Stay curious.