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Speaker 1: The stakes are so hot.

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Speaker 2: Average buy in nowadays is around like fifty to sixty thousand.

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It's very easy to just lose a few million very fast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is Remco. Thanks for clicking on a video.

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This is my brand new podcast called Face the Ace,

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in which I talk to the most interesting people in

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poker and go a little deeper into the topics you

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most care about. Enjoy. Welcome to a brand new episode

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of Face the Ace The Ace today, mister Seth Davies.

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If you're new to the show, please like the video

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subscribe to the channel weekly episodes coming out with some

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of your favorite players in the game. Seth, good to

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have you on the show. The summer, of course, always

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a sort of a pivotal moment in the life of

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every poker player. However, for you guys quote unquote high rollers,

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it doesn't seem to carry the same weight that it

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does for the rest of the poker world. How do

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you view this this time of year?

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Speaker 2: You know, as far as like my total earn as

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a poker player, it's not as.

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Speaker 1: Big as it used to be.

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Speaker 2: But you know, THEWS is always going to be really

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special in everyone's because, you know, is what we all

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kind of looked looked up to when we were new

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poker players. But yeah, maybe it's not where I would

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where I'm playing most of my buyings nowadays. I guess

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most is usually about a million in buyings for me,

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whereas like Triton over the years like over five million.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I still take it really seriously. It's

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close to home.

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Speaker 2: I live here, and the tournaments are incredible, like as

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far as one hundred k plus no limit WSP is

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as good as it gets, as far as the field quality,

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the softness of the field, So it's definitely something worth

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taking very very seriously.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so I'm loving it, glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: How do you balance the aspirations as it comes to

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prestige versus purely financial versus ROI shot taking? Perhaps you

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know some fields might not be as great, but you

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still want to be in there. Are those all things

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that you consider?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And I mean that's one of the really

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cool things about poker, especially at a very high level,

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is like we're we're playing a skill game right where

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like we're competitors, and I think if you only approach

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this game as like money in, money out, like I'm

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strictly here to just suck as much money out of

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as possible. I think that that's just like not the

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best type of life to live, at least for me.

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You know, I like competing. I think like, for example,

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if I was to go play one hundred K at Triton,

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that was a very tough one and say, I'm only

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returning a few percent, So what is that like a

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few thousand dollars profit? Compare that to going to play

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like a really soft five K, where I'm making a

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similar amount of money, Like I would much more enjoy

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the hundred k, you know what I mean, because it's

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a very highly competitive environment that takes a lot of

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work to get there, it takes a lot of work

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to stay there, and you're every hand is very stimulating,

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and like you're like, all right, I'm one on one

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with an elite player where it's not like Okay, I'm

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gonna go play this five K and like get top

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paerent value bet really big. You know, it's just not

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as not as stimulating. So and look, at the end

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of the day, like you have to make money. You

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have to make as good a life for you as

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you should. Like that's you know, one of the reasons

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we were all got into poker in the first place

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was it was a good opportunity to make a good

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living doing something fun, and the sky's the limit. You know,

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you can make a lot of money doing this. But

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I think it should not be understated that, like, it's

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really cool to be playing a competitive game for a living,

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and I think that should be taken seriously.

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Speaker 3: In your sort of high roller universe, or maybe I

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should even say high roller economy. Is it the case

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that perhaps you track ROI and value? Do you have

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spreadsheets of who you value or you know, if I

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compare it to blackjack, do you keep count you know

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plus or minus? How these fields evolve and if so

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or if not, how do you assess value and deciding

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whether you want to play certain events?

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Speaker 2: Well, for me, I'll pretty much play everything nowadays. You know,

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it's very very rare that a tournament will come around

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and I'll be like, Okay, this is just so bad,

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I won't even play. It's not never like it would

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definitely happen, especially with Triton where the rake's a little higher.

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But they have done a good job of that recently

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by they've reduced the on time Rake and like some

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of their highest events. But you know, it's the high

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stakes tournament. Economy is very sensitive, and sometimes you'll show

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up to it right and then there's just like two

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or three VIPs there who are just like super blasting

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and you're just like, holy shit, like this is an

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incredible Like I'm making so much money just being in

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this tournament right now because the guy is just like

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twenty x opening and then just like stacking off every

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flop when he has like a gut shot.

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Speaker 1: Or whatever, you know, like it's just so profitable.

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Speaker 2: And then the next trip it's like where all the

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vap's there's zero, you know, So I'm just like I'm

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just the worst player in the field is like a

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great player, you know, as far as the whole hierarchy

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is concerned. So you're constantly kind of you know, doing that.

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But for me, it's like I'm pretty much just gonna

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play no matter who's there. Like if there's a very

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terrible tournament, yeah, I'll set it out because you know,

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I play enough poker anyway, but I think I've developed

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my skill set to the point where I can pretty

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much profit in any tournament that runs.

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Speaker 3: How does the view on buy ins and selling and

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perhaps swamping. How has that evolved for you throughout your

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career and guide us a little bit through how perhaps

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your threshold for stakes changed over time and how that

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works currently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the threshold for stakes changes over time

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for two reasons. One, like you just make more money. Like,

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as you're a profitable player, you go through your career,

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you win money and hopefully you're saving it, and you know,

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for fortunately for me, i don't have like very expensive tastes,

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so I've been able to like accumulate, I'd been able

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to level up as I've gone along, having more of

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myself and then also swaps compared to just like selling

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action because you know, selling action obviously you don't take

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the risk. But yeah, the kind of resilience towards stakes,

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I think as my career has progress, I've gotten access

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to swapping with better players, I would say, And for

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me that usually means like a pretty common kind of

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spread for me would be like fifty percent of myself

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ten percent of five other players roughly, So that's like

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it keeps a good balance of like, yes, I have

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much more myself than anybody else, so it's still like

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integrity there's no conflict of interest there, but also smooths

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out a lot of the variants and portly for me,

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over the years, I've been able to develop relationships and

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just my game to the point where I five very

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strong players that I can swap with, So that reduces

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the variants a lot, right, And it's crazy, Like there's

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been some discussion recently, like some Triton databases have been

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made public, which I don't think are entirely accurate, But anyway,

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that's we can talk about that later. But and you know,

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a lot of extremely good players are down a lot

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of money, and then obviously a lot of extremely good

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players are up a crazy amount of money too. So

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being able to take my variance and distribute that over

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six players myself and the five others obviously have less

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of them than I do myself, but like it makes

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us a much more realistic way to make money, because

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you know, like as people can see with that database

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that comes out, like people can play ten years, and

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I think the total number of tournaments in the database

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was four hundred, which is a very small sample, you know,

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and like it takes thousands of tournaments to really let

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that smooth out.

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Speaker 1: So being able to have that you know, kind of

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various distribution is really nice.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing I want to say about that

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real quick would be like the thing like because whatever,

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the internet's the Internet, but like whenever something like that

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comes out, like the people are with the Internet are like, oh,

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these guys are losing money. This is like this is

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so fake, Like there's such bullshit, and like the thing is,

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almost everybody I know who plays high stakes mptts for

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a living like they make a very good living on

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other things, like whether it's coaching or ambassad deals or whatever.

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So yes, like there's a good point to what people

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are saying, Like if you only want to play high

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stakes cernaments for a living, it's I don't know how

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good of an idea is that, but like being validated

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as a world class player, it opens up other opportunities

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for you. And that's like, you know what I would

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say about people.

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Speaker 1: Like how do you do this for a living? Especially

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with taxes?

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Speaker 2: It's just like not even possible, and like, yeah, it

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kind of is because mostly because of like site income.

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Speaker 3: I would say that trend list is very interesting, and

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I think the biggest thing you hit on is the

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sample size which of course is insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it brings up like thirty seven million,

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it's like half of the total profit. That's want to trite,

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and it's obviously like insanely like like three hundred percent

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ur iers on. It's just so ridiculous. But yeah, yeah, No.

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Speaker 3: This other thing that I wanted to get into in

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relation to the lack of volume is you know, if

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I if I put it really bluntly, just for the

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sake of this conversation, is what's the point to keep

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going once you've had a big score, because in a way,

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you've you know, achieved and unlocked level completed. Let's advance

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to whether it's you know, a sideways move or into

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a different direction, because we all know variants is crazy.

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So the variance of doing it multiple times, of course,

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you know, the chances of flipping the coin and hitting

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tails still remains fifty percent even the second and the

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third time. But at the same point, the same time,

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the the I guess risk of ruin or or at

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least your future opportunity sort of doesn't really increase after

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you've won. So have you ever looked at it like that,

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Like maybe there's a point and time where I quote

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unquote cash out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think the problem with that is, like

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I was saying too, is like once you exit the

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game and kind of step away from like the highest

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level of poker, you're you're just you lose your validation

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as a world class player. So those kind of side

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those those streams of side.

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Speaker 1: Income go away. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, if you're you know, say a top

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thirty player in the world or whatever, you can charge

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a certain amount to coach people or run a coaching site,

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or make a master class or start, yeah, start your

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own coaching.

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Speaker 1: Site or whatever.

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Speaker 2: There's this level of credibility obviously, but like as soon

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as you or as an ambassador, because as an ambassador,

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like you're playing on the streams that like everybody's watching.

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Speaker 1: It's a very important part of your.

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Speaker 2: Value as an ambassador, as well as just being visible

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in general. But as soon as you step away from that,

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like that kind of goes away, right, Like that that

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opportunity dries up. So that is a big part of it,

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you know, and poker sites they like to make money.

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They like to have people representing their brand, like to

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make coaching content. It's it's it's great for the masses

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in a way. So yeah, there is a sense of

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like if you do go on this massive heater get

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some kind of massive payday, it's like maybe I should

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just step away, you know. But at the at the

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end of the day, like we kind of talked about

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at the start, was like for me like that because

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that's another thing I've seen like a million times. I'm

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on social media a lot nowadays because I'm.

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Speaker 1: More active there.

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Speaker 2: But like it's a very funny comment you constantly get

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from like casual poker people. They're like, you just won

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ten million dollars in two months, Like why do you

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not retire and just go play? Like one case, I'm

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just like like that sounds so fucking boring, you know

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what I mean, Like like like I spent twenty years

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working as hard as I can to become like a

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world class poker player. Now I'm just supposed to be

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all right, like got a bunch of money. Now I'm

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just gonna like stop and just like what what might

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I spend my time doing. I'm sure I have hobbies

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and stuff, but like I love poker. I love being

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like competing at like a truly world class level and

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all the kind of benefits that brings. Like I was saying,

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it's very satisfying as a person and also monetarily obviously

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with coaching and other things. So yeah, there's I just

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couldn't really picture myself just like stepping away honestly.

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Speaker 3: Going through the years you've had in the game. Looking

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at the numbers. One thing we have to keep in

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mind is that the buyings have also increased over time.

255
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So the average binds you put into a year is

256
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crazy compared to let's say ten years ago. But it

257
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is kind of interesting. Twenty eighteen you cash for a

258
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million and a half. That was your first seven figure year.

259
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Since then you've got at least seven figures every year,

260
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but then twenty Just to name the numbers here, twenty

261
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twenty was a million, then three point five, five point four,

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five point five, nine point one, and then last year

263
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twelve point one. I've seen some of your videos, by

264
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the way, they're great. Checkout South Davi's YouTube channel, some

265
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very good content on there, and you talk through the

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insanity of the ups and downs and what goes on

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behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: As far as you know.

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Speaker 3: One Trident trip might go unnoticed to the general public,

270
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but you're stuck three million exactly, so.

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Speaker 1: A little high, but yeah, there's a lot. The numbers

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00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,480
are big. There are millions on the line.

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Speaker 3: Shed some light on those super successful years from the

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perspective of someone just googling your name and how those

275
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actually ended up playing out.

276
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Speaker 2: Yeah, sou Poker tournaments are funny because whenever somebody's doing

277
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very well, it's extremely visible.

278
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Speaker 1: You know, it's very very clear that, like their name's.

279
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,039
Speaker 2: Everywhere, and as it should be, like there anythink, but

280
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like when someone's not doing so well, you just kind

281
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of forget about.

282
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Speaker 1: Them, you know, and.

283
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Speaker 2: That's natural, right. There's an extreme amount of variants. The

284
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upswings are phenomenal, and the downswings are devastating. I mean,

285
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what more to say about that, Like it's very easy

286
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to just lose a few.

287
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Speaker 1: Million very fast, you know.

288
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Speaker 2: It's the stakes are so high, like you're saying, I

289
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think my average buy in nowadays is around like fifty

290
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,000
to sixty thousand average, and you're talking about the highest

291
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,080
buy ins are generally the toughest tournament. So there's going

292
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to be like the more devastating downswings. I would say,

293
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it's a hard thing to go through.

294
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Speaker 1: And that's like you know.

295
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Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I think a lot of

296
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the people have kind of enjoyed the stuff I've been

297
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putting out because I kind of talk about that, like

298
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my whole with this content I'm creating, I'm not signed

299
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to be like I'm not trying.

300
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Speaker 1: To be like look at me, I'm such a baller,

301
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you know.

302
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,159
Speaker 2: I got like I'm well private jets and shit, That's

303
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,080
not what I'm trying to do at all.

304
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Speaker 1: I'm trying to be like, hey, this is what this

305
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,440
actually looks like.

306
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Speaker 2: Like I just went, uh three weeks and lost you know,

307
00:13:30,919 --> 00:13:32,399
one point five million, two million.

308
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,039
Speaker 1: It's just devastating. This sucks. Like, here's me in my room.

309
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:35,879
I'm like sad.

310
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Speaker 2: You know, it's not like it's not and that's real.

311
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:39,960
And that's what a lot of us are going through.

312
00:13:40,039 --> 00:13:43,200
And you spend so much time again, this is an

313
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elite competition. You spend months and months and months and years,

314
00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:49,279
like throughout your whole career like preparing and just being

315
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,279
all in on being the best poker player you can.

316
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,399
Then you just go to Triton and you like totally

317
00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:57,279
brick it and it's just like a crazy, crazy feeling.

318
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,799
And that's kind of what I'm trying to shed light

319
00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:02,519
on that you know, as poker fans, this is something

320
00:14:02,519 --> 00:14:04,480
that's not gonna be very obvious, but like one of

321
00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,200
the most impressive things at least somebody who's doing it

322
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,360
is people that go through those massive downswings and they

323
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,879
stay in action. Like the best example I like to

324
00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:16,720
think of is Christoph Vogel saying, who over the last year,

325
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,440
he's doing great last couple of years, but like he

326
00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:21,360
went on a devastating downswing. I think it lasted for

327
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:23,720
like two or three years, just got absolutely crushed, was

328
00:14:23,799 --> 00:14:26,720
running so about. And he's like an incredible poker player,

329
00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:29,159
has been a high stakes winner since like twenty ten

330
00:14:29,559 --> 00:14:32,240
cash games online, playing two hundred four hundred all these

331
00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:34,480
tournaments over all the years, and he went through this

332
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,679
this devastating downswing and he stayed in action.

333
00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:37,679
Speaker 1: And what does that mean.

334
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,679
Speaker 2: It means one, he's just like accumulated a bunch of

335
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,600
wealth himself through his own poker player. And two, even

336
00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,399
though he was losing getting crushed, people still like believed

337
00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:47,919
in him to swap with him to buy his action.

338
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,879
I don't know if he's ever selling, but like he

339
00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:53,159
stayed in action. And eventually got out of that hole

340
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,960
and has been on this like great upswing over the

341
00:14:55,039 --> 00:14:57,360
last couple of years, which is great to see. So like, yes,

342
00:14:57,399 --> 00:14:59,720
it's very easy to see somebody going a megaheater and

343
00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:02,200
be like, wow, what a great player, But like the

344
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,159
real test is like getting crushed for multiple years and

345
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,279
still staying in the game.

346
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:08,519
Speaker 1: Like that's a great player.

347
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,279
Speaker 2: And I hope people like who see this or hear this,

348
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,559
like take this to heart, because like that's the real

349
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,600
show of like this guy's a fucking elite poker players.

350
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,039
He just lost you know, five million in two years

351
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,000
or whatever, six million, and he's still playing. People still

352
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,600
believe in him, So like that's a real test of

353
00:15:23,639 --> 00:15:24,240
a great player.

354
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,799
Speaker 3: What's the deepest and darkest moment that you've been through

355
00:15:32,039 --> 00:15:35,159
in your high roller career and perhaps give color to

356
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,440
it in the sense that you know, you remember, you know,

357
00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:39,919
walking to your hotel room, we're calling your wife, or

358
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,559
or you know, maybe sitting down behind the computer to

359
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,240
go over some spreadsheets. Do you recall that moment and

360
00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:47,919
please sort of describe that to me.

361
00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, really early in my career, there was Trenton, London,

362
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,080
which I believe was twenty nineteen. It was the one

363
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,159
where they had the million dollars buy in, and it

364
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,720
was I was still pretty new to the high roller

365
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:03,000
senior in general. I mean, I guess a couple of

366
00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:04,399
years in. I think the first time I was playing

367
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,960
real high stakes was twenty eighteen. I think this London

368
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,320
was twenty nineteen. It was definitely before COVID And I

369
00:16:09,399 --> 00:16:13,320
remember like going into this main event and this was

370
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,720
one hundred k main event and it was pounds, and

371
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:18,080
I ended up firing four bullets into this main event

372
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,039
in about an hour, like just four hundred k pounds

373
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,120
just shredded in like an hour. And you know, this

374
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,399
was before I had like much success at these stakes,

375
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,440
Like I had success in like five k's, ten k's

376
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,960
and main events before this. But like I remember just

377
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,320
going back to my room and just being like I

378
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,279
don't think I belong here, you know what I mean?

379
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,480
And I don't know, like those tournaments were good, and

380
00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:39,440
like I definitely wasn't nearly as good as the player

381
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,639
I am today. Back then, I think I was good

382
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,679
enough to at least, you know, like make a small profit,

383
00:16:43,799 --> 00:16:47,159
especially in those tournaments. But like until it happens for

384
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,080
you until you you know, like have good scores, like

385
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,519
put together a great year, put together a great upswing.

386
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,000
You get caught in your own head. It's just like

387
00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:57,600
do I have what it takes to win? You know?

388
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 1: And once we're.

389
00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:02,559
Speaker 2: Small edges here, so like the way you actually end

390
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:05,079
up with profit in the long run is like picking

391
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,359
up you know, just small pots that people wouldn't necessarily

392
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,160
pick up through like a live read, or just having

393
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,359
like very solid fundamentals in general and not leaking win

394
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,039
rates other players. But like when you have a huge

395
00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:17,559
heater or a huge downswing, like that's not what causes it,

396
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,920
you know, Like when I won ten million in six weeks,

397
00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:22,759
like I was winning flips, I was getting dealt big hands.

398
00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:24,720
I was, I mean, I was playing fine, But like

399
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,519
the mega ups and downs, they don't come from you

400
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,400
out playing somebody every hand or getting outplayed every hand.

401
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,920
It's it's you know, the variants of poker, That's what

402
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,279
it is. And in the long run, the small pots

403
00:17:35,319 --> 00:17:37,279
you pick up and the small decisions you make along

404
00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:39,079
the way add up to your to your win rate.

405
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,839
And back then, you know, before I had experienced like

406
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,680
the great run, it was just like like it was

407
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,039
just kind of deer in the headlights, you know, And

408
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,400
and it was just like.

409
00:17:47,519 --> 00:17:49,759
Speaker 3: Was it a time where you had to make actual

410
00:17:50,279 --> 00:17:53,359
adjustments to you know, how big the pieces were you

411
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,880
wanted to take sell more action. Was there sort of

412
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,279
a down shift happening.

413
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,079
Speaker 2: No, I've always been pretty conservative with with bankroll management

414
00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:03,640
and generally done things on a trip by trip basis,

415
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,279
So like in the middle of the trip, I'm knocking

416
00:18:05,319 --> 00:18:07,000
to be like, oh shit, I gotta I gotta, I

417
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:09,599
gotta reset here and like and sell more or whatever.

418
00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:11,839
It's always like, okay, I know, even if this trip

419
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,559
goes as bad as possible, I'll be okay and we'll

420
00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:14,359
reassess at the end.

421
00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:16,279
Speaker 1: Of the trip. And that's that's, you know, what's happened.

422
00:18:16,319 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 2: Like I've talked about before where I've had trit and

423
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,920
trips where I would it was like ten percent of

424
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,279
my net worth and it just like oh shit. But

425
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:24,920
like never had to like pull the rip cord in

426
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,559
the middle in the middle of the trip or anything.

427
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:29,880
And that's that's much more of like the London trip

428
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,000
I was talking about. It's much more of like a

429
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,759
do I belong here type of feeling rather than like,

430
00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:36,359
oh shit, I just lost all my money. You know,

431
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,279
I've never been in a situation where I was like

432
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,599
at risk of going broke.

433
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 1: It was much more.

434
00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 2: Psychological and just like sitting in the room, like should

435
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:45,240
I go get a job?

436
00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:48,200
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, you know, It's just it was rough.

437
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,559
Speaker 3: Is is high stakes tournaments? I guess being a high

438
00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:56,519
six storm professional? Is it basically just as simple as

439
00:18:56,759 --> 00:18:58,599
you're constantly preparing for the heater.

440
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,880
Speaker 2: I think it's actually that's actually a bad idea, honestly,

441
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:08,440
because if you are preparing for, like basically things to

442
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,720
be going really well for you, because what happens to

443
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,880
some people, like winners tilt is a real thing, right,

444
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,119
like winners till this absolutely real thing where somebody wins

445
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,319
the tournament, then the next tournament they're just like super

446
00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:19,440
reckless with a bluff that wouldn't usually make or whatever.

447
00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:21,720
So like, I think it would be a much better

448
00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,400
idea as a for your focus in preparation, be like,

449
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,720
all right, how am I going to prepare for when

450
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,680
I'm down a million and this is really fucking hard

451
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:29,880
and I can't win a pot, you know.

452
00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 1: But I think in the end, the preparation is mostly.

453
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 2: Just fundamentals, Like poker fundamentals are super real, and I

454
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,359
know people think they're boring, but which is also complete

455
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,759
nonsense by the way, which is very funny because like

456
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,119
people are like, oh, like GTO style players, it's just

457
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,400
boring and tight and it's just not at all like

458
00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,160
it's people who say that are just like just don't

459
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,039
really know what they're talking about, don't have experience with it.

460
00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:55,920
Like like people who train a lot with like GTO

461
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,680
trainers or whatever, like go get on like GTO Wizard

462
00:19:58,759 --> 00:20:01,119
or GTO lab or anything and play against the G

463
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:01,720
two bot.

464
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:02,319
Speaker 1: It's like the.

465
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 2: Most savage like bluffer, Like they just always have bluffs,

466
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,480
always have crazy bluffs. That's extremely like entertaining just to

467
00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,799
watch a robot play poker, and that's like what you know,

468
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,319
a GTO style, very fundamental player is trying to emulate.

469
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,480
So that's always something that kind of tilts me. It's like, Okay,

470
00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:19,839
you watch a stream like high stakes poker or whatever,

471
00:20:20,079 --> 00:20:21,799
somebody three bets queen three off suit.

472
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 1: They like bet once and give up.

473
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,559
Speaker 2: If you don't have anything where it's like you watch

474
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,279
like a great player, it's like, okay, they three bet

475
00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:29,720
they have six five suited, but then they bet three

476
00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:31,799
times for like five hundred big blinds on the river

477
00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:33,759
as a stone bluff with six high where you like,

478
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:37,279
like that's cool entertaining poker to me. So like, yeah,

479
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:39,519
fundamentals is the big thing then, and there is a

480
00:20:39,599 --> 00:20:42,480
lot of kind of exploited at play, like much more.

481
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: Than people think.

482
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: Uh, in high stakes tournaments, there's tons and tons of

483
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,440
live reads, timing tells, exploitive adjustments to everything. So that's

484
00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:52,920
you know, the other big part of the thing is

485
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,839
like just being really tuned into the streams what everybody's

486
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,160
up to and all that.

487
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, is there such a thing as the Seth Davies's

488
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,119
Book of Tells where you keep track of your opponents

489
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,920
because you guys play the same groom over and over

490
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,079
again and the entire group has so much exposure through

491
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,880
live streams and you know even even like broadcast episodes

492
00:21:16,279 --> 00:21:19,039
that you actually are generating tons of study material.

493
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, I mean I keep a massive spreadsheet of

494
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,240
everybody I play against. But there's as that's something that

495
00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:26,599
I've really like evolved in and I think everybody who's

496
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,279
really good at this will tell you, is that like

497
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:34,920
every single tell has context, and it's like, Okay, the

498
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,799
way this guy is playing against me is not the

499
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,799
same he's going to play against the next guy, even

500
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:41,839
though even if we're like pretty similar players, you know,

501
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,240
because like it's this big web of different opinions on

502
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,119
other people, right, and like based on the context of

503
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,319
that person playing against whoever else is in the hand,

504
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,000
like they're going to behave differently, whether it's physically or

505
00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:55,720
just like in their betting patterns or whatever.

506
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,079
Speaker 1: So it's a very easy.

507
00:21:57,839 --> 00:21:59,759
Speaker 2: Trap to fall in and be like, oh, this guy,

508
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,680
you know, kind of lean forward when he had a

509
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,400
big hand or something. But it's like there's context to

510
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,920
every single thing, and and it's like live like live

511
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,200
reads and exploitive poker in general. It's just the biggest

512
00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:14,119
art form ever. It's not scientific. It's very much artistic

513
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,960
and everything is completely unique. And yeah, like I'll keep

514
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,000
a spreadsheet and think of things generally. Like more so,

515
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,960
like something I would put in a spreadsheet that would

516
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,880
be useful would be like, Okay, this guy's like very

517
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,039
aggressive in multi way pots, Like something that I think

518
00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:32,240
will be just like a baseline of his like general strategy,

519
00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:34,640
or maybe it's something some kind of exploit he's developed

520
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,880
over lots of online play. I know a lot of

521
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:41,640
online primarily online players. They like to do database work

522
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,119
and kind of exploit population tendencies much more than live

523
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,880
players do because our playerpool is different. So so yeah,

524
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,680
it's it's something I you know, there is a ton

525
00:22:50,759 --> 00:22:53,640
of study fodder in that way, but it's something you

526
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,599
have to be very careful with to not be like

527
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,680
dogmatic about it and think like, Okay, this guy always

528
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,599
blessed too much. It's like every single opportunity to bluff

529
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,160
has tons and tons of contacts and you.

530
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:05,279
Speaker 1: Need to pay attention to all of that.

531
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: So's that's the most important part with like exploited play

532
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:08,519
for sure.

533
00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 3: Are you ever still surprised or enlightened by something you

534
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,079
see or experience yourself at the table because so much

535
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,279
is being studied and the exploits of course, are you know,

536
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,240
like an art form, Like you said, I'm just curious

537
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,960
whether it all always makes sense or if you're still

538
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,039
left scratching your head either positively or negatively. By the

539
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,559
by the peers, I'm not talking about VIP players, but

540
00:23:35,599 --> 00:23:37,119
by the peers, how do you look at that?

541
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:39,279
Speaker 2: No, absolutely and that's like one of the coolest parts

542
00:23:39,319 --> 00:23:41,519
of tournaments in po and poker in general is like

543
00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,720
the game is so incredibly massive that even after playing

544
00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:47,960
full time for nearly twenty years now, like I'm constantly

545
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,079
put into situations I've never been in before. You know,

546
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,400
like there's just simply so so many different things going

547
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:53,799
to happen.

548
00:23:53,839 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: You know.

549
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: You hear the thing about like a deck of card shuffle,

550
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,640
there's like more combinations than atoms in the universe or whatever.

551
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,759
So like there's so many runouts, so many different things.

552
00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:06,400
So and now you talk about tournaments where it's like, okay,

553
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,119
I have tournament pressures where bubbles coming up, final tables

554
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,279
coming up, paye jumps this, like there's a vip in

555
00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:14,079
the field. So this like personal behave differently. So yeah,

556
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,279
constantly seeing things that are stimulating be like ah, man,

557
00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:19,759
like I see who's doing that.

558
00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: That's pretty damn cool, you know what I mean.

559
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's like one of the great things

560
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,079
about playing very high stakes tournaments too, is you're constantly

561
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,920
watching the best players play, so like there's constantly something

562
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:30,480
to be learned.

563
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:34,519
Speaker 3: You know, there are certain players that, at least from

564
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,920
my perspective of the sidelines sort of do stuff a

565
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,519
little different, or at least that's my perception. So please

566
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:42,440
correct me on that, because of course I'm not. I'm

567
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,119
not getting five out by these guys. But just if

568
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,079
you name a few names and you perhaps if you

569
00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:49,480
have an anecdote or an example of why there might

570
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,160
be difference, just please jump in. But I see names

571
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,599
like Brin Kenny, Adrian Matteo's further down the list fade

572
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,400
or especially back in the day when he was when

573
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,480
he was really coming up, those are the first sort

574
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,440
of that come to minds that to my to my view,

575
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:11,119
seem a little different. Are those perhaps names to stick

576
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,799
out that are sort of unconventional.

577
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: I mean Adrian, Adrian's name on that list sticks out.

578
00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:18,799
I don't think he's an unconventional player. He's just like

579
00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:22,240
an incredible player. He's fantastic, fundamentally, fantastic, Exploitatively.

580
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: I think those other two.

581
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:27,519
Speaker 2: That you mentioned, Brendan fad Or are much more exploitative

582
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:30,519
based and less interested in being like very great fundamentally

583
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,000
well and like for for a number of reasons. That's

584
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:35,359
not that's not for me bashing on them or anything.

585
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,720
I think both of those guys are Brennan, Fador are

586
00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:41,759
like well passed there, Like I care a lot about

587
00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:43,799
being a great poker player stage like they still play

588
00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:45,440
a lot. But like fad Or and like what was

589
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,839
the twenty sixteen or whatever, like that guy was all

590
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,000
in on being like an incredible poker player, and he was,

591
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,519
you know, he's he still is an incredible poker player.

592
00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:54,200
But I think he even he would tell you he's

593
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,880
like got a lot more other things going on in

594
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,400
his life. He doesn't want to spend the time and

595
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,920
effort to try to be as best as he can.

596
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,720
I think Britain's the same way, whereas Adrian is so

597
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,720
focused all the time, like the perennial like superstar poker

598
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,400
player who's just always locked in, always prepared, always giving

599
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,880
it one hundred percent, and uh yeah, he's like truly

600
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:14,799
truly one of the best.

601
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:19,079
Speaker 3: How are the guys that are unconventional and I'll probably

602
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,759
have to take this outside of the high roller sphere,

603
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,880
how are they able to still be successful? And I'll

604
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,160
give a few names here too for the viewers as well.

605
00:26:28,319 --> 00:26:30,440
Michael was Rocky just won his ninth pricelet when's the

606
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,400
main in the fifty K last year. Someone like Cheina Reim,

607
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:35,680
for all his ups and downs, is still able to

608
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,640
do it. And it's also very outspoken about the fact

609
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,480
that he's never studied a day in his life.

610
00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

611
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 3: I can probably name a dozen more examples. What is

612
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,559
it that those guys have X factor wise that you

613
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,839
might look at and say to yourself, there is something

614
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:50,519
in their game that I could learn from.

615
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:51,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

616
00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: I mean, poker talent is a real thing, you know,

617
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:56,839
Like it's I constantly preach about like fundamentals and being

618
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,720
strong fundamentally, but like, I know a lot of people

619
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,039
who are very like kind of book smart at poker,

620
00:27:02,279 --> 00:27:04,720
but they do not perform very well because like their

621
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,079
actual in game talent is is.

622
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: Is kind of lacking.

623
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: And you know, the guys I'm not gonna say any names,

624
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,039
but like there are plenty of guys who've kind of

625
00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:13,440
tried to knock on the door at high stakes and

626
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,680
they've kind of failed. And this is exactly why I think,

627
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:18,160
and that's the difference between the guys who stick around

628
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,519
a guy like Adrian or Jason Kuhn, Stevie Chidwick, all

629
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:24,680
these guys who like they're incredible fundamentally, but they also

630
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,160
have incredible poker talent too. So a guy like Chino

631
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,440
or Miss Rocky or whatever, like, they have great poker

632
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,640
talent in a way where like one, they're just good

633
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,720
like good hand readers, and that comes from both just

634
00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:38,799
like playing a lot and live reads like like timing

635
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:42,279
tales or whatever at hand whatever it may be. They're

636
00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:44,799
just quite talented at like, you know, just determining what

637
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:47,200
a guy has, and that will get you pretty far.

638
00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:49,440
But like when you start playing against very great players

639
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,799
that have balanced ranges and are not getting time tales,

640
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,160
that's where those guys really struggle, right, And that's fine,

641
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,559
you know, like they don't need to come play two

642
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,359
hundred k's at trite and like they don't you know,

643
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,200
it's not what they're trying to do here. Those guys

644
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,440
are are yeah, are quite good at you know, being

645
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,599
just like locked into what people are up to, which

646
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,759
is what poker talent is as well. And like hand

647
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,079
reading is great. But like fundamentally, when you don't get

648
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:13,599
that information from like the very best players, it doesn't

649
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,279
go well for them.

650
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,519
Speaker 3: If a prop bet was proposed to you for an

651
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:20,319
amount of money that is significant to you would you

652
00:28:20,519 --> 00:28:25,400
absolutely demolish the five K and lower buyings a WSP.

653
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: I think, so, yeah, yeah, I mean I have no

654
00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:32,000
interest in doing something like that. I mean, the biggest

655
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,920
thing about prop bets like that is like, Okay, if

656
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,359
I'm going to make a bet like this, it's probably

657
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,400
going to be against somebody I don't really like, because

658
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,319
I wouldn't I wouldn't try to like be crushing my

659
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:42,720
friends for a bunch of money.

660
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: And I don't really like dealing with people I don't like.

661
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: So like if somebody's like, all right, let's bet a

662
00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,160
million dollars, you know, who can like win the most

663
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,920
money in five ks or something, It's like, Okay, it's

664
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,039
like I don't want to deal with somebody that I

665
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:55,920
don't like, and also the risk of them like not

666
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,279
paying or anything, so like, yeah, I mean it would

667
00:28:58,279 --> 00:28:59,720
be worthwhile.

668
00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: I think.

669
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: I think there's almost nobody in the world who I

670
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,400
would not take on and a bet like that, But

671
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,200
like the logistics of an actual bet, like it's never

672
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,200
gonna happen, But in.

673
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: A hypothetical sense, it's fun to sort of, I guess

674
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,720
brainstorm on because it gives you a sense or it

675
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:17,559
gives you an opportunity to paint a picture of what

676
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,279
the actual sort of skill level differences between what you're

677
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:27,119
accustomed to playing against versus what everyone else plays against, right.

678
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,839
Speaker 1: And actually, like this is this is I'm glad you

679
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,000
brought this up because.

680
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation with my my buddy Marco Johnson,

681
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,160
good old roommate of mine.

682
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,759
Speaker 1: He's doing mixed game player.

683
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:37,279
Speaker 2: As like I don't know, seven bracelets or something, but

684
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,240
we had to talk about this yesterday. I saw him

685
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,599
at the gym and we were talking about because he

686
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,680
won a brace in the twenty five hundred a couple

687
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,240
of weeks ago, and we were talking about that tournament

688
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:49,920
and like, and we were talking about how to play,

689
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:51,680
Like he was saying, like how I would play, Like

690
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,559
I'd play completely different in that than a one hundred k,

691
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:56,519
Like we talked about like gto and fundamental poker, like

692
00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:58,400
that just completely goes out the window when I'm playing

693
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,640
in a twenty five hundred, Like, yeah, sure, I'll generally

694
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,160
like kind of have like solid opening ranges and stuff,

695
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880
but there are like a lot of situations and I

696
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,359
see this, I've actually employed this strategy just preflop which

697
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,519
is pretty interesting in a number of those like if

698
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:14,640
you have somebody on your table who's playing like eighty

699
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,480
percent of hands, which you get like not super often

700
00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:19,799
but kind of often. Like playing just like a two

701
00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:21,839
point five x open and fold strategy is like not

702
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,960
a very good idea, right, so you play like a

703
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,839
limp and like a four x open strategy. I was

704
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:28,799
actually doing this in the win ten K, so yeah,

705
00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:31,599
like that's completely opposite of like poker fundamentals, Like I

706
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,839
had a spot where like I folded King's pre flop.

707
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,640
I would never ever do that in one hundred k

708
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,400
against the real players. So it's just like the whole

709
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,920
like gto goes out the window. And again I'm not

710
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,279
saying that people who play these steaks should not study

711
00:30:44,279 --> 00:30:46,200
that type of thing, because you know, there are tons

712
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,200
and tons of professionals in the field, obviously, and you

713
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,200
need to be able to beat them and hang with

714
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,559
them if you want to make the most money, and

715
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,519
especially if you want to move up in stakes. But

716
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,680
like at the end of the day, again, I was

717
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,000
talking to another buddy of mine and he said he

718
00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:01,519
plays like six hundred dollar tournaments and whatever, and he's like,

719
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:03,920
do you have any tips for me, And I was like,

720
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,440
whenever somebody shows weakness, doesn't matter where your cards are,

721
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:09,920
just completely smash them. Like if they have an opportunity

722
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,680
to bet the flop and they don't bet the flop,

723
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,480
and like the turn is a turn that doesn't like

724
00:31:13,559 --> 00:31:15,640
hit their range. Doesn't matter where your cars are, just

725
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,079
like bet gigantic and if they call, then go all

726
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:20,680
in the river, Like your cars are completely irrelevant. Whereas

727
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,720
like at high stakes or gto land, that's not exactly

728
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,039
that's not how you want to play at all, right,

729
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:28,680
Like if the board's like jack six, five, ten, and

730
00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:30,519
they check back the flop and the turn comes to

731
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:32,799
ten and you just have like King Dews just like

732
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:34,920
one hundred and fifty percent pot and then all in

733
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,559
on the river, you know, because they're like they're not

734
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:39,640
gonna The difference is like at high stakes, someone's gonna

735
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,119
have say like ten nine there, and they're gonna call

736
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,599
you for all their whole stack, where like you know

737
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,960
it's just massive bet, massive bet, they're gonna call you down,

738
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,839
like because they believe you're bluffing. But like the fallacy

739
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,720
at lower stakes is that like I will not go

740
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:55,200
broke without a great hand, so they've gotten themselves into

741
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,920
a situation where they never have a great hand. So

742
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,720
you just like go get all in by the river.

743
00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:01,799
We're going to call you right. So it's like that's

744
00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:04,680
like how you explore that, Like that's like classic population

745
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:09,400
exploit at lower steaks. So like again going back to this,

746
00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:11,720
if I wanted to play low stakes for a bunch,

747
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,640
like I would not at all, Like people would if

748
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:15,960
they didn't know who I was, they'd be like, oh,

749
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,640
this guy's like a hood poker player, you know, because

750
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,640
he's just not playing like gto at all.

751
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:27,519
Speaker 3: You know, why is it so compelling to almost play

752
00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:33,599
within the constraints of theory versus the artistic nature and

753
00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:37,440
and you know creative availability of those lower stakes because

754
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,200
there's still lots of money to be wanted lower stakes.

755
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,559
You can also you know, play one hundred percent for

756
00:32:40,599 --> 00:32:42,839
yourself because it almost seems to me like you're more

757
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,000
drawn to the science of it than the art.

758
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,759
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think the misconception is that the

759
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,319
constraints of science are tight and simple, and and that's

760
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:55,000
like one of the like people that are true experts

761
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:57,240
at hold them, they'll they get this and they don't.

762
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,799
But like so like people think the constraints are like Okay,

763
00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:02,720
if I bet, I need to have a hand or

764
00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:04,680
a draw, like I need to have something. But there

765
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,960
are constantly especially in like tournament sack sizes where sacks

766
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,799
get shorter, where you're constantly like taking complete nothing and

767
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,759
like going nuts with it. If, for example, take like

768
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:18,119
a button versus big blind three bet pot at like

769
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,319
forty big blinds, where the big blind's three bet range

770
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:24,519
will be very good hands in very weekends. Uh, it's

771
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:28,440
an extremely insane thing to like train and like try

772
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,519
to excute because you just have like King five offsuits,

773
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:31,920
so like you're not gonna make a draw with King

774
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,279
five offsuit, but you also have good hands that you

775
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:36,680
want to like bet, bet and get all in or whatever.

776
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:39,839
So like you have to take these very non intuitive

777
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:42,640
types of hands. And this is where the best players

778
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,720
really shine, right is like consensus is of all the

779
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:48,160
like GTOs boring and it's constrained to like, Okay, you

780
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,200
only bet when you have a good hand or something.

781
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:51,519
Speaker 1: It's just like not true at all.

782
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,359
Speaker 3: No, No, I didn't mean it in that sense. I meant

783
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,799
it in the sense that your line of thinking is

784
00:33:56,839 --> 00:33:59,119
so different. You just mentioned, you know, the win ten

785
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,960
k where or four x. That is not a decision

786
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,400
that you have to make when you play in one

787
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,359
hundred k, right, and then in one hundred K. The constraint,

788
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,599
I guess is the fact that you have to you

789
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:12,840
have to reach back to to what you know, what

790
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,119
you've studied, as opposed to having to be sort of

791
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,840
outside the book creative on the fly.

792
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah,

793
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,599
and that's cool and everything. But the thing that's not

794
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,880
stimulating about that, Like it's cool to come up with

795
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,320
kind of unconventional strategies, but the thing that's not necessarily

796
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,079
so great about it is that, like when you have

797
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,559
a lower sticks tournament where your win rate is going

798
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:35,840
to be much higher, the players are going to.

799
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,599
Speaker 1: Be much more explainable. It's kind of simple, you know

800
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:38,960
what I mean.

801
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,199
Speaker 2: It's like it's like the example I said, if anybody checks,

802
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,239
they show weakness, you just smash them and take the pot.

803
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,400
Like it's it's a pretty simple thing to do. The

804
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,079
limp in four X example is a little bit more

805
00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:50,000
complicated and cool and kind of fun to execute, But

806
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,880
in general, it's like, Okay, I think this guy's never bluffing,

807
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,840
so I'm gonna fold every time, or I think this

808
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,559
guy's never gonna call me down, so I'm gonna bluff

809
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:00,599
every time, Whereas at high stakes it's much more complicated.

810
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:03,000
It's like, Okay, this is a guy who is very

811
00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:06,239
capable of, you know, protecting himself in certain ways or

812
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,119
being aggressive in proper ways. So it's much more stimulating

813
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:12,079
to try to find the chink in his armor there

814
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:14,519
rather than just like, Okay, this guy's never gonna call

815
00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:16,440
me down. I'm just bet bad all in So it's

816
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,159
it is cool to kind of get out of the

817
00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:21,480
box and execute strategies like that, But in the end,

818
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,679
lower stakes players are much much more predictable, especially in

819
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,239
either direction. Like the main event is always a cool

820
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,760
opportunity because you get people who they'll never call you

821
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,039
down or you should never call them, and then you

822
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:35,639
get plenty of people that you should call them every

823
00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,440
single time where they're like very aggressive. So what people

824
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,800
are up to is a bit more obvious at lower stakes,

825
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,400
and that's just completely not true at high stakes.

826
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, are poker fans, and I would say large majority

827
00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:52,559
are poker fans unable to truly appreciate what it is

828
00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:56,960
that they're watching when they're watching these eight to ten

829
00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:01,679
hour high roller streams. And if so, what what can

830
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,480
you or you you guys as a community do, or

831
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:07,960
what can the viewers do to to like, you know,

832
00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:10,360
better appreciate what it is they're seeing.

833
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:13,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think

834
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,719
the answer is both yes and no. I think what

835
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,920
people can appreciate who don't have super deep poker knowledge

836
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,800
is like when a big play happens, it's it's pretty

837
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,920
obviously like what this guy is try to accomplish. It's like, okay,

838
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,559
say somebody goes all in for two x spot and

839
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:28,039
they have seven high. It's like, oh, this is a

840
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:30,039
sweet bluff, and you know this is how he got there.

841
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:32,760
But what the thing that's hard to appreciate is that

842
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,159
as on an elite level, what poker or hold them specifically,

843
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,039
but poker in general, it's like it's a the strategy

844
00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:47,400
as a whole needs to make sense. So an example

845
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,119
of this is like when somebody like checks back a

846
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:52,599
really good hand when they could bet, Like the casual

847
00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:54,880
poker fan might just be like, like why didn't he bet,

848
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,679
Like he's got to set, Like why did he check?

849
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,519
Like he had an opportunity to bet, And the idea

850
00:36:58,599 --> 00:37:01,119
there is is like I need to check this hand sometimes,

851
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:05,519
so like because it's hard for a h like someone

852
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:07,599
without very deep pok knowledge to be like, okay, like

853
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,320
if I bet all my good hands here, the problem

854
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,000
is not that, Like the problem is not in this

855
00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:16,679
current situation, right, Like it's fine to bet all your

856
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:19,559
good hands. The problem lies in when I decide not

857
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,679
to bet. Is if all my hands that are good

858
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,559
go in a betting range with then when I check,

859
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:27,719
I just have nothing and I'm very exploitable. And that's

860
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,800
like what great players are good at is like like

861
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,280
that's like I just talked about in the lower stakes

862
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,400
where people won't check back good hands even though they're

863
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,599
supposed to it. Sometimes so people will constantly see or

864
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:41,960
not constantly, but sometimes see very high stakes players and

865
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,880
criticize them, be like what is this guy doing. He's

866
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,079
checking a great hand, Like they're like he's got to bet,

867
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:47,519
like he's got to try to build a pot, But

868
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:50,199
like what he's actually doing is he's managing the entire

869
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,760
strategy of like all these different lines and all these

870
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,679
different outcomes that hand can take. And that's that's the

871
00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:57,760
thing that's very hard to appreciate, even for like mid

872
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,800
tier professionals, I think, because even as a mid tier professional,

873
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,440
you can win at poker without like being good at

874
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,480
that at all or really having much depth of knowledge

875
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,360
of that, where it's like at high stakes you just can't.

876
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,920
You know, the kind of mid tier professional poker players

877
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,840
they're all quite good at, like knowing which hands they're

878
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,639
supposed to bet, which hands they're supposed to semi bluff

879
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:20,159
with or bluff the river with, knowing like have some

880
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,679
rudimentary knowledge of how blockers are supposed to work. But

881
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,480
at high stakes, it's like, Okay, what am I doing

882
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:29,320
with my range? What hands do I need in this range?

883
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,320
The checking range, the betting range, the raising range, the

884
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,719
calling range. It's managing the entire possibility as a strategy

885
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:35,199
as a whole.

886
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,559
Speaker 3: I know you're good friends with Jason Kuhn, and I

887
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:39,960
am fortunate enough to you know, consider him a friend

888
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:41,559
and talk to him every now and then when we

889
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:45,079
come across each other, and I won't speak for him

890
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,360
or sort of you know, frame it the way that

891
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,960
he did. But what I found interesting about a recent

892
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,880
conversation I had with him is how he pointed out

893
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,440
certain players and I won't him any names, that he

894
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:56,480
just said, like, those people are just different. They are

895
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,079
just have a different type of view on things, and

896
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:02,360
they are able to do things that might be ahead

897
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,880
of the game in a way. Do you experience that too,

898
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,960
and and do you talk to Jason about how to

899
00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:11,880
combat that? And and then the final question, is Jason

900
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,320
on your list of those people?

901
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah?

902
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Jason's on that list of those people. He's fantastic

903
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,639
at that. And you know one of the guys, like

904
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:21,079
I will, I will name and name please, Ben Tolerant.

905
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,679
Speaker 1: Ben Tolerant. And this is kind of a great example.

906
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: Of why elite poker players play this way, Like Ben

907
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:31,639
is fantastic at doing exactly what I just said about

908
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,880
managing all the different lines, like knowing which hands they

909
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,679
have in a checking range in this and this, And

910
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,440
what happens when you play against guys like this is like,

911
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,679
regardless of what has happened, you end up on like

912
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,159
the turner river and like they spring like a raise

913
00:39:46,199 --> 00:39:48,239
on you or something and you're just like, oh shit,

914
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:51,079
Like it just feels like they're like one step ahead you,

915
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,599
and they kind of are right because like he's he's

916
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:56,000
managed his range in a way where okay, now he

917
00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:59,000
has something behind that he can actually do this, and

918
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,719
all a sudden raise four hundre percent pot and you're

919
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,239
just like, oh, what the hell? And and Jason's definitely

920
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,280
one of those guys, and those two are close friends.

921
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,159
I'm close friends with both of them, and and yeah,

922
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:11,840
that's what it feels like, is you feel like you

923
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,039
feel like you're constantly like stepping in a trap, you

924
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:17,800
know what I mean, Like if if you're talking about

925
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,440
again kind of more simple poker strategy where it's like okay,

926
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:24,239
bet bet bet what do I call his bluff with?

927
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,280
Or maybe I'm the aggressor okay, bet bet bet what

928
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,199
do I bluff with? Whereas against the guy like Ben

929
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,320
or Jason, it's like, okay, the flop, point, check check,

930
00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:33,760
maybe a small bet on the turn, Okay, I checked

931
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,719
to the river and now he bets and then.

932
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: Oh he raises for him, It's like what the hell?

933
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,199
Speaker 2: Like, you know, this guy has has like sprung this

934
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,239
like slow play on me. But it's not just but

935
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,320
their strategy is not like, oh, I'm gonna trick them

936
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,440
here by like checking. It's like, okay, I need this

937
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:49,360
type of strong hand in this range for these reasons,

938
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,559
and it always feels like he stepped in it, you

939
00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:53,920
know what I mean, And it makes them extremely difficult

940
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,519
to play against.

941
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:58,119
Speaker 3: Where did they or where have they obtained that edge

942
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,880
or that line of thinking or is that like you

943
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,840
know how certain people are just smarter and they have

944
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:08,159
another level of creativity and what do you do to

945
00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:08,800
close that gap?

946
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,119
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's all about solver study. It's like

947
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:14,199
all these things are learned through solvers. It comes back

948
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:16,840
to poker talent and way and this is another version

949
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,679
of poker talent. Whereas like these guys for many many

950
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,480
years they've understand this is how the game works. This

951
00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:26,920
is how you have to be successful, is to manage

952
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,960
the game in this way. Rather than just like looking

953
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,960
at a solve and saying like okay, ace queen, yeah,

954
00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:33,559
bets here, It's like it's not okay, what bets here?

955
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:35,800
It's like, all right, what sneaky hands do I need

956
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,039
to like protect my range with and things like this.

957
00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:40,119
So the way you close the gap is just by

958
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,039
you know, studying amount yourself. You know, it's the depth

959
00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:45,480
of knowledge in this game is so so deep and

960
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:49,639
the ceiling is infinite that it's there's just an unlimited

961
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:51,199
amount of things to learn and study.

962
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 3: The old days, so the old ways to get good

963
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,480
was to talk with friends, you know, shout out to

964
00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:00,679
like Skype and like MSN Messenger back in the day.

965
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,480
Oh yeah, and aim was probably on there too, and

966
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,960
of course uh toopless two forms talking through hand histories,

967
00:42:08,519 --> 00:42:10,880
very simple to the point what would you do here?

968
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:12,719
What would you do there? I was part of that generation.

969
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,199
What does what does talking strategy look like? These days?

970
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,440
When you talk with your your brightest friends, how do

971
00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:21,360
those conversations go?

972
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,599
Speaker 2: It's still quite similar. I mean nowadays we have like

973
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,320
the external thing about the solvers as well, but like

974
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:31,199
even with like when you use solvers or any type

975
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:34,800
of software to get better, like a bad way to

976
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,480
do it is like okay, I played this hand running

977
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:38,679
all okay I did okay, sure, Like that's not like

978
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,880
gonna make you. It's something worth doing, but it's not

979
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,280
what's going to make you better. Because in a poker

980
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,039
hand there are a million different things you can think about,

981
00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:48,280
especially if you're like well versed and have done a

982
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,039
lot of work. There's just a million different things you

983
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:54,440
can focus on. So by talking hands with your friends,

984
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,199
you get kind of different perspective on what they find

985
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,760
important in this hand. And that might be like a

986
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,000
solver mechanic, it might be a live thing, it might

987
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:04,800
be a tournament thing where it's like, okay, half the

988
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,840
people pay at this point. So like constantly running hands

989
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,800
by your friends, it's still very much, very similar to

990
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,119
back then. And again, like I was saying, like so

991
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,079
much of the like quality poker strategy is not necessarily solvable.

992
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:23,039
It's an art form more than it is a science.

993
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:25,039
So yes, like you have your solvers to kind of

994
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:27,400
guide you in the right way, but your friends are

995
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,840
going to tell you what they think is important in

996
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,760
the hand, and that kind of recalibrates you to be like, oh, well,

997
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,639
like maybe that's something that didn't really run across my

998
00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:35,800
mind in this situation, you.

999
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,559
Speaker 3: Know, speaking of art and solvers, palamon Omaha has taken

1000
00:43:40,639 --> 00:43:43,719
up a huge portion of the interest of high stakes players.

1001
00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:47,920
Padam and Omaha never really was that game, and that

1002
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,920
has really evolved quickly. The fields are massive in these

1003
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,960
high buying tournaments, but the game is far more complex

1004
00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:59,519
if you're trying to solve absolutely How do you think

1005
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:04,599
that will continue to grow? And how is it possible

1006
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,320
that there was an inflection point where that game took

1007
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,920
off even though it's been around for a very long time.

1008
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think PLO took off.

1009
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 2: Largely because it's never been easier to be very good

1010
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,960
at no limit no one to hold them. So you

1011
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,360
have just like tons and tons and tons of very

1012
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,199
strong no limit players, and unfortunately, like a lot of

1013
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,159
them like are pretty boring to play with. You know, like,

1014
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,880
if you play like a twenty five hundred, it's pretty

1015
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,760
likely you're going to have somebody at your table who's

1016
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,000
like way too slow and kind of annoying, and it's

1017
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,320
like it's it's kind of unfortunately has kind of killed

1018
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,559
the game, even though that person just trying to play great.

1019
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:41,320
And I love that people are trying to play great

1020
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,920
and working hard to be good. But at the same time,

1021
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,079
you do get a lot of kind of frustrating players.

1022
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,880
So I get that, and so one the games have

1023
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,239
just gotten tougher too, They've gotten a little bit more

1024
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,000
annoying to play in a lot of senses. So I

1025
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:56,119
think PLO is kind of the the like you said,

1026
00:44:56,159 --> 00:45:00,719
it's more artistic, it's it's more enjoyable, especially because it's

1027
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,559
a looser it's a very loose game, especially the way

1028
00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:04,840
all the tournaments play with the big blind anny now,

1029
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,119
which is great, by the way. So so yeah, I

1030
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:10,039
think it's cool that it's happened and pretty natural because

1031
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:12,039
it kind of fills those gaps that used to be

1032
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:12,480
there in No.

1033
00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: Limit, the kind of no longer are you know.

1034
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,119
Speaker 2: Like in No Limit used to be able to be

1035
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,119
like total hood poker player, like win and stuff, but nowadays,

1036
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:22,320
when the fields just get tougher and tougher and tougher

1037
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,079
every year, it's that this doesn't really work anymore. And

1038
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,360
PLO does tend to be more kind of jovial atmosphere,

1039
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,159
people like having a little bit more fun. But PLO's

1040
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,280
like I've gotten much more serious about PLO over the

1041
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,360
last couple of years, like largely because of what you

1042
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,800
said about how it's taking off as a tournament game.

1043
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,719
And it is such a good poker game, you know,

1044
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,280
like you have so many different combinations pre flop, right,

1045
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,159
there's like what two hundred and twenty thousand or whatever

1046
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,400
compared to in hold them, it's like a couple hundred.

1047
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,920
So whenever you play a PLO hamm, all your cards

1048
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,000
matter in a way because like say you have.

1049
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: Ace king on a ace king.

1050
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: Seven board, like your two side cards are so important

1051
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,719
about how you should proceed.

1052
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Whether you should bet or we should check back or whatever.

1053
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: So it's like this constant logic puzzle, whereas hold them

1054
00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:11,519
is it's still a logic puzzle in a way, but

1055
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:12,880
it's like, Okay, you only have a s king, you

1056
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,119
don't have the two side cards, so what do you do?

1057
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:16,880
You check it seventy percent of the times, you bet

1058
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,639
it thirty percent of time. It's much more kind of

1059
00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:21,320
computery in that sense where it's much more frequency managed,

1060
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:24,280
whereas PLO is like, Okay, I have these four cards,

1061
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,840
these are the cards on the board. There's an answer here,

1062
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,320
like I need to try to figure out what the

1063
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,360
answer is, and it's much less about like okay, I

1064
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,960
need to check thirty percent of the time. It's just

1065
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,800
like doesn't really work that way. So it's it's super

1066
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,360
super fun, super stimulating.

1067
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 3: Would you advise ambitious poker players to just, you know,

1068
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,360
say farewell to hold them and focus on pot limit. Omaha.

1069
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: I mean in a perfect world, yes, but if you're

1070
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,679
an ambitious poker player, you should play what games are

1071
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:56,719
available to you. So if there's a good PLO game

1072
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,840
somewhere on you like you kind of haven't made, you know,

1073
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,119
like play that PLO game, have a great time, get

1074
00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:04,159
good at probably have a massive win rate. But for

1075
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,920
I think a lot of people, the best plan, at

1076
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,280
least like coming up if you're kind of trying to

1077
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,079
establish yourself is generally going to be like playing online.

1078
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,639
And sure, you can play PLO online, but there's also

1079
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:19,360
a bunch of great tournaments online and and like I'm

1080
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,239
talking about PLO, but like tournament no Limit is awesome too,

1081
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,480
Like I've just had so much experience with it, Like

1082
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,960
PLO is kind of new to me, so I'm really

1083
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,519
enjoying it. But like, no, the tournaments are incredible and

1084
00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:30,800
there's they're never going to go away. PLO is a

1085
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,639
little bit more fragile. Maybe your country or region wherever

1086
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,679
you're from might not have as much PLO going on,

1087
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,880
whereas like virtually anywhere in the world you can play

1088
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,159
online no limit tournaments and like make a good living.

1089
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,119
So so yeah, I mean, I don't think you can

1090
00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:45,760
go too wrong there ideally, Like I think PLO would

1091
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,599
be the way to go. I think the ceiling is

1092
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,440
a bit higher, especially of access to like high stakes

1093
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,039
cash games. But you know, either one, you're in a

1094
00:47:53,079 --> 00:47:54,400
good space, good spot.

1095
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,159
Speaker 3: The cash games you bring up always intrigued me because

1096
00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:04,119
there was a time where cash games were in a

1097
00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:06,800
way a little similar to tournaments, to where you just

1098
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,039
show up right, you get on the list, you get

1099
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:11,159
in the game, there's no game, try to start a

1100
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:14,280
game whatever. That era that has died out completely, that

1101
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,880
doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, you cannot get into a big

1102
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,119
game without either knowing someone or having some sort of

1103
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:26,239
involvement in organizing or what have you. How do you

1104
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,840
look at that and then sort of secondary to that,

1105
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,719
have you ever tried to make that switch and pivot

1106
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:36,039
because the value just seems unlimited.

1107
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I've never got involved much at all in

1108
00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:42,360
the private cash game scene. There's a couple of reasons why.

1109
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,920
Like one, I was just like very established along the

1110
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,199
tournament path for a very long time. You know, even

1111
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,599
back very early in my career. I went full time

1112
00:48:49,679 --> 00:48:52,840
as a pro in twenty ten, I played online tournaments

1113
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,960
for a living and that's never changed. There was one

1114
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,199
stretch of time and I think it was twenty fourteen

1115
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,639
where I played online cash games professionally for about but

1116
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,480
other than that, it's pretty much all been tournaments for me.

1117
00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:06,639
The thing that you know, I absolutely love about tournaments

1118
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,199
is you buy in and if you win or cash,

1119
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,480
you go the cage, they give you your money. That's not

1120
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,519
necessarily how it works in private cash games. There's a

1121
00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:17,280
bunch of credit, there's a bunch of getting stiffed, there's

1122
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,719
a bunch of like politicking, like you know, who's who's.

1123
00:49:20,519 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 1: Vouching for who? You know, like where are we playing this?

1124
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: You know, there's all this like kind of external stuff

1125
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,800
that just sounds very annoying to me.

1126
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,519
Speaker 1: And again like the.

1127
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 2: You get rewarded for that, you know, the upside is fantastic.

1128
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,719
You end up playing like a big cash game with

1129
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,440
you know, two pros and six VIPs. It's an incredible

1130
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,519
way to make a lot of money. But again going

1131
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:46,519
back to what I said earlier, it's like that that

1132
00:49:46,639 --> 00:49:48,760
just doesn't really like sound very stimulating to me. And

1133
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,639
I like to I like to be work hard, to

1134
00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:54,719
be great at things, whether it's poker or like I

1135
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,519
like fitness, like tennis, Like I like doing these things.

1136
00:49:57,559 --> 00:49:59,760
But like, if you're kind of living this private game lifestyle,

1137
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,440
it's like, all right, we'll play from five pm to

1138
00:50:01,559 --> 00:50:02,119
four am.

1139
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna get drunk all night.

1140
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,519
Speaker 2: It's like, well, we're gonna do this three times a week.

1141
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:07,880
And sure like people like that. I'm not like bashing them.

1142
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,920
It's just that's not for me, you know. I like,

1143
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,639
I like waking up early, I like going to the gym,

1144
00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:13,800
and like hanging out with my family.

1145
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: I don't like drinking all that much.

1146
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:18,519
Speaker 2: But I think there's two buckets of people who what

1147
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:20,559
do they want out of poker? And I think tournaments

1148
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,840
attract both VIPs and professionals in general, attract a lot

1149
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,719
more of the people who like the competitive aspect of it.

1150
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,559
They're like, oh, I'm going to study, try to be

1151
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:29,840
a little better, you know, whether I'm a hobbyist or

1152
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,000
a professional. And then cash games is like, oh, you know,

1153
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:34,480
let's drink some wine and gamble, you know, do some flips,

1154
00:50:34,519 --> 00:50:36,880
double board, bomb pots. Like It's it's much more of

1155
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,599
like a fun thing for them, And that's just not

1156
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,880
like what I'm here for. And if that means I'm

1157
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,840
gonna make a lot less.

1158
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: Money, so be it.

1159
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,159
Speaker 2: You know, I get I get to enjoy working hard

1160
00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:47,840
and getting the competitive aspect of it.

1161
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 3: How is it possible that being a professional since twenty ten,

1162
00:50:53,159 --> 00:50:57,199
we're now sitting here in twenty twenty six, and you

1163
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,760
speak with the same amount of drive and passion about

1164
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,039
this that has obviously brought you a lot of good.

1165
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,880
But at the same time, no matter what the career is,

1166
00:51:05,199 --> 00:51:08,719
whether it's in business or if in pro sports, whatever

1167
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,360
the case may be, there always seems to be a

1168
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,400
pivot point or someone changing lanes. How have you carried

1169
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:16,440
this passion for so long?

1170
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: Well, it has not stayed the same for sure. Like

1171
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,400
I remember back in twenty ten, when I was a

1172
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,880
new pro, I could sit on the computer play sit

1173
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,440
and gos and low stakes tournaments twelve hours a day

1174
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,000
every day, never get tired. It was just like heaven,

1175
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,039
you know, it was just like I would There's nowhere

1176
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,079
else I would rather be. I can't do that anymore,

1177
00:51:33,079 --> 00:51:35,519
you know. I like to play it, but like even WSP,

1178
00:51:35,639 --> 00:51:36,920
like I don't have it in me to come in

1179
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,480
here and play twenty straight days and a lot of

1180
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:44,000
these guys do, which is incredible, and I envy them

1181
00:51:44,039 --> 00:51:47,320
for that for sure, Like I definitely need my time off.

1182
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,599
But the thing like that always keeps me excited about

1183
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:54,159
poker is and it might sound boring to some people,

1184
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:56,960
but like I truly love to like study and learn

1185
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,840
about poker. Like even it's like it's really really fun

1186
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:01,719
to learn things about poker, and like I said, there's

1187
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,440
just an endless amount of things to learn, so like,

1188
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,199
and it's constantly in flux.

1189
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: You know.

1190
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 2: It's like the games, even high stakes games, like the

1191
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,920
way they're playing will definitely change, like six months to

1192
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,199
six months, like whether it's new players coming in or

1193
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,679
whether it's like certain players are on a heater or

1194
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,840
like going downhill, and like certain like groups are kind

1195
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,960
of like doing well or not. Like the games will

1196
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:25,760
kind of shift and flow in a way, so like

1197
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,920
you're constantly kind of adjusting to how how you approach

1198
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,880
these games. So it's just like it's just like this

1199
00:52:33,039 --> 00:52:35,280
never ending stream of just like stuff to stay on

1200
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,800
top of, which is motivating and fun, you know. And

1201
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,400
I'm not I'm not gonna lie and say that, like

1202
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,159
I'm as motivated as when I was twenty three. The

1203
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:44,760
I mean, the whole thing is just way different now.

1204
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,199
A lot of it is obligations to other people as

1205
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,239
well as like obligations to like my family. It's like

1206
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,159
I need to make money for my family too, right,

1207
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:53,639
whereas back then it's.

1208
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: Just like I love to play. Let's play all the time,

1209
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,280
all the time.

1210
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 3: You know, how do you see the landscape evolve? Because

1211
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,519
I've heard you on different podcasts talk about how the

1212
00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:05,280
sort of the super high role ecosystem can be super

1213
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,079
fragile you mentioned earlier. If the VP doesn't show up

1214
00:53:08,119 --> 00:53:10,239
and fire ten bullets, then your trip is all of

1215
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,400
a sudden, very bleak.

1216
00:53:11,639 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1217
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 3: And if if you know, and credit to them Richard

1218
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,519
Jong and Paul Fua who organized Tried or who are

1219
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:19,960
also very involved in playing those events, if they decide

1220
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,760
to one day they're tired of poker, then that ecosystem

1221
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,960
changes to How do you look at the future of

1222
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,960
that sort of top tier segment.

1223
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's extremely hard to predict, you know, And

1224
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:36,280
fortunately I think those guys, I don't think their love

1225
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,960
for poker's going anywhere for a while. But you're right,

1226
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,719
like maybe maybe it will like who knows, And I

1227
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,000
think Triton is pretty self sustainable at this point. So

1228
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:48,000
again that like it just belongs to those guys, so

1229
00:53:48,039 --> 00:53:49,760
they could pull the plug if they wanted to. But

1230
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,000
like even if I could, I could envision a situation

1231
00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:54,679
where those guys might be, like, I don't want to

1232
00:53:54,679 --> 00:53:56,559
play for a while, But like Trenton still kind of

1233
00:53:56,559 --> 00:54:00,960
carries on, maybe not in as good of a like

1234
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,760
iteration as it is now or has been, And that's

1235
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,760
you know, one of the reasons why you really have

1236
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,320
to stay on your toes. And like I was saying,

1237
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,360
the kind of side income that comes with being this

1238
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,880
type of player is something you really need to take

1239
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,800
advantage of because like everything else might be gone tomorrow,

1240
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,280
you know what I mean, Like it like might be

1241
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,119
over and I have to be you know, I have to,

1242
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,440
Like it's some kind of punishment, but like maybe next

1243
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:28,480
year Treitent's gone and I have to play every single

1244
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:31,199
wsop tournament and like that's how that's how I need

1245
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,880
to continue on. So yeah, it's it's it's all about,

1246
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,239
you know, creating opportunity for yourself in as many ways

1247
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,039
as possible, and fortunately for us, like poker tournaments in

1248
00:54:41,079 --> 00:54:45,679
some sense will be available forever. Maybe that means taking

1249
00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:47,800
a big pay cut and playing lower stakes or whatever

1250
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,360
it means. But but yeah, it is kind of anxiety

1251
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,159
and do things like eighty percent of my buy in

1252
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:54,960
could be gone.

1253
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: Tomorrow if they just decide they don't want to do

1254
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,000
it anymore. So, yeah, a.

1255
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 3: Few more things before I let you go. It has

1256
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,880
been super interesting to talk to you about this stuff.

1257
00:55:03,039 --> 00:55:09,320
There have been various different iterations of the high roll

1258
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,760
or landscape, right, so people come and go. There was

1259
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,840
an era of the Germans, and there was an era

1260
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:20,760
where certain American groups were more prominent. And when you

1261
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,400
look at the Ulti money lists, it's very apparent that

1262
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,159
some guys aren't around as much anymore, and they have

1263
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,480
already won all their millions. How do you look at

1264
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,800
your position within sort of the legacy of the super

1265
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,639
high role or ecosystem. Just to put the numbers on it,

1266
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,320
forty five million earnings or eighteenth on the Ulti Money list.

1267
00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:42,800
You're among the absolute best and the most successful of

1268
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,920
all time. But do you also feel like you belong there?

1269
00:55:46,679 --> 00:55:48,280
Speaker 2: I think I do, And the main reason I do

1270
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,280
is because my close group is a group of guys

1271
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,079
who they've been doing this for a very long time,

1272
00:55:54,199 --> 00:55:56,320
you know, whether it's Jason, whether it's been Tolerant, or

1273
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,400
whether a number of other guys. They have been professionals,

1274
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,559
heigh stakes professionals for fifteen plus years, and getting to

1275
00:56:03,559 --> 00:56:05,159
feel like one of those, Like I'm kind of the

1276
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,800
I'm the young buck in my in my group for sure.

1277
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,400
And I mean it's crazy because like I've been playing

1278
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,440
high stakes for nearly ten years now, but those guys

1279
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:13,920
have been around longer than that. And you know, like

1280
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,519
I was saying before, it's like you have had these

1281
00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:20,519
guys throughout the history of high stakes tournaments who like

1282
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,400
they come for a couple of years, like maybe do

1283
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,039
well at the start and then they go away, or

1284
00:56:24,039 --> 00:56:25,760
maybe they do well and leave, you know, like maybe

1285
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,280
they come and go, but you see a lot of

1286
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,239
these kind of flashes in the pan and virtually or

1287
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,400
everybody I work with, study with, swap with, and friends with,

1288
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,559
like they're all ten plus years career guys.

1289
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: So getting to feel as a.

1290
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: Part of that group, I feel pretty confident in like

1291
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,400
my position here, and yeah, I don't see it any

1292
00:56:47,599 --> 00:56:48,400
ending anytimes.

1293
00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned this side opportunities that come from having

1294
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,760
the profile of being being among the best, playing among

1295
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,079
the best. Try to try quantifying that, because this is

1296
00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:01,559
not something that people often hear about. How does like,

1297
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,920
how does coaching at that at that super high level work,

1298
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,199
Because you know, I could ask you to coach me,

1299
00:57:07,519 --> 00:57:09,719
and I'm you know, I'm whatever decent, but I probably

1300
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,199
won't get much out of what I can get from

1301
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:14,480
you versus someone who probably costs a tenth of what

1302
00:57:14,519 --> 00:57:17,800
you would charge. And then alongside of that, the ambassadorship.

1303
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,719
Players are often vocal about the fact that you know,

1304
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,239
we put up our own money, this is our own risk.

1305
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,119
No one is paying us to be here. But from

1306
00:57:25,159 --> 00:57:27,079
the way you say it, it sounds as though it

1307
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:29,840
is a little bit more lucrative then we might see,

1308
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:31,400
like we might see it as.

1309
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:34,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean with the ambassadorship thing, I think like

1310
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:36,199
at least everybody that I know who's involved with things

1311
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:39,079
like that, like they treat that income as totally separate

1312
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:42,079
from from like their poker bankrell or whatever, so like,

1313
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,000
and I think that is the good way to do it.

1314
00:57:44,039 --> 00:57:47,079
Like you kind of you hear this a lot with

1315
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:50,760
professional athletes. Again, I'm not comparing us to professional athletes,

1316
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,559
but the thing kind of holds the same idea kind

1317
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:57,440
of holds true. Where like professional athletes, it's pretty common

1318
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,039
for them to be like, Okay, I have my contract

1319
00:57:59,039 --> 00:58:00,800
for playing on the field, I put that here with

1320
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,400
one financial manager maybe what are one account, and then

1321
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,960
I have all my endorsement deals. And I treat these

1322
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,679
as two entirely separate entities. And that's like a very

1323
00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:09,880
good way for them to manage. Like, you know, maybe

1324
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,519
I get cut and I lose all this money, and

1325
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:15,599
like this h endorsement money is in this other bucket basically.

1326
00:58:15,639 --> 00:58:19,079
And that's people how I think most people, as the

1327
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:22,079
ones I know I deal with, you know, poker ambassadorships,

1328
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:24,360
It's like, okay, this is and and the two like

1329
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,079
natures of the two streams of income are entirely opposite, right,

1330
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:29,360
And it's one of the reasons why these sight incomes

1331
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,239
are great. It is like, if you're an ambassador or

1332
00:58:32,239 --> 00:58:35,159
a coach, it's like you're getting paid a salary basically, right.

1333
00:58:35,239 --> 00:58:37,280
For the most part, some people have like you know,

1334
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:41,800
affiliate codes or whatever, so it's generally stable income, whereas

1335
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,440
MTT poker income, it's the exact opposite. It's just completely unstable.

1336
00:58:46,679 --> 00:58:49,039
You might get three years worth of income in a

1337
00:58:49,079 --> 00:58:50,960
month and then none for the next three years.

1338
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:51,119
Speaker 1: You know.

1339
00:58:51,159 --> 00:58:54,599
Speaker 2: It's it's so it's very polarized in the sense of

1340
00:58:54,639 --> 00:58:56,320
how the money comes in. So I think that's the

1341
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,559
way to keep it separate. And then the good thing

1342
00:58:58,599 --> 00:59:01,559
about being you know, very lead poker player who has

1343
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:03,719
coming up the ranks, like I know how to beat

1344
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,960
every stake, you know, like I started playing one dollar tournaments,

1345
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,280
I started playing ten cent twenty cent, and I won

1346
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,360
in that, and I build up by a bankroll one dollar,

1347
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,639
two dollars whatever, all the way up, so like I

1348
00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:17,920
understand what it takes to win at each stakes. And

1349
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,039
I also understand like how to coach very strong players.

1350
00:59:20,039 --> 00:59:23,039
So I've coached like plenty of players who are you know,

1351
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:26,400
nearly I would call them elite, but very strong professionals.

1352
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,000
And I've coached a lot of guys who just play

1353
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,119
in like all VIP games too, that are very high

1354
00:59:30,119 --> 00:59:33,480
stakes that you know, the coaching is much more rudimentary,

1355
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,800
I think as far as value per dollar. You know,

1356
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,239
if somebody's playing softer games, like yeah, like go with

1357
00:59:38,239 --> 00:59:41,679
a cheaper coach, but the value is there for for

1358
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,920
kind of all stakes, and like I was saying, kind

1359
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,360
of when I play lower, it's, uh, this strategy is

1360
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,480
just kind of simpler, you know. It's it's it's you know,

1361
00:59:50,599 --> 00:59:53,360
your exploits are going to be much easier to kind

1362
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,039
of describe and and and come about where it's like, Okay,

1363
00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:58,159
if I'm coaching a guy who plays you know, average

1364
00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:01,800
buying of ten K, we're gonna talk a lot about

1365
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,280
depth in depth strategy and like getting his rangees crisp

1366
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,800
and all that. So, yeah, that's that's kind of how

1367
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:07,360
it goes there.

1368
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:09,159
Speaker 3: What is a what is a super high row or coach?

1369
01:00:09,199 --> 01:00:09,599
From on of me?

1370
01:00:09,639 --> 01:00:10,119
Speaker 1: These days?

1371
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,119
Speaker 2: If you're a pro, like you're probably gonna be looking

1372
01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:15,079
at anywhere from like five hundred and one kN hour. Yeah,

1373
01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:19,519
it depends, Like well, no, that's I'll just say that. Yeah,

1374
01:00:19,519 --> 01:00:22,440
Like like certain things, like I say, it depends because

1375
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,239
like I've had times in the past where it's like

1376
01:00:24,559 --> 01:00:26,320
I've had somebody approach me and say like, hey, I'm

1377
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,079
playing a two thousand and four thousand cash game all weekend,

1378
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,079
Like I need you to come coach me for like

1379
01:00:31,119 --> 01:00:33,000
three hours today and they'll just pay you like fucking

1380
01:00:33,039 --> 01:00:34,880
eight k or whatever. So like that's where it's like

1381
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,000
like obviously kind of like out of control rate. But

1382
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:39,960
like if you're coul do anything kind of like structured

1383
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,000
on the say package like anywhere from five hundred to

1384
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:42,559
one kN hour.

1385
01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 3: So then do you then build specific plans for the

1386
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,559
player in their situation or is there a a SETH

1387
01:00:51,639 --> 01:00:56,639
Davies sort of handbook where players sort of are sort

1388
01:00:56,679 --> 01:00:59,239
of asked to like this is the study material and

1389
01:00:59,599 --> 01:01:01,440
just the way that it used to be in high school.

1390
01:01:01,559 --> 01:01:03,519
We have a curriculum and we're going to move through that.

1391
01:01:03,639 --> 01:01:06,519
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the best way to learn, especially if

1392
01:01:06,519 --> 01:01:09,159
you're dealing with somebody who's already a very strong professional,

1393
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,719
like is organically like let's record you playing an online session.

1394
01:01:14,039 --> 01:01:16,079
Let's go over every hand that comes up, and then

1395
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:17,920
you'll go on like very good tangents.

1396
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,119
Speaker 1: And this is how I make most of my training videos.

1397
01:01:20,159 --> 01:01:22,639
Speaker 2: I have make training videos for run at Once, and so,

1398
01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:25,880
like the curriculum idea, it is good, and I think

1399
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,599
that like generally people should do that with like master

1400
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:33,639
classes or yeah that basically master classes, people will be like, Okay,

1401
01:01:33,639 --> 01:01:35,559
we're going to talk about ic M play.

1402
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:36,079
Speaker 1: As a chip leader.

1403
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 2: These are all these spots, but I think like as

1404
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,599
far as one on one coaching goes, the best way

1405
01:01:41,639 --> 01:01:44,159
to get better is to just show a recorded session

1406
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,039
or if you're playing live, like a bunch of written

1407
01:01:46,039 --> 01:01:49,199
down hands, and let that drive you into some kind

1408
01:01:49,239 --> 01:01:52,159
of broader topic that's more fundamental that you can like

1409
01:01:52,239 --> 01:01:54,400
kind of dig into. And that's how I study myself

1410
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,639
as well as like I reviewed a session I played

1411
01:01:57,079 --> 01:01:59,119
and like, oh, this is something interesting. I'm going to

1412
01:01:59,199 --> 01:02:01,639
test this, you know. Like let's say you're like, oh,

1413
01:02:01,679 --> 01:02:05,480
I play four handed at a final table, the cutoff opens,

1414
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:06,480
I'm in the button.

1415
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,039
Speaker 1: And I like went all into it. Is this two

1416
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:09,719
week of a hand to go on whereever.

1417
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 2: And it's like you see like the way A Salvers

1418
01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:15,239
says to play and you're like, oh, that's interesting, and

1419
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,880
like what if I change the button stack from twenty

1420
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,760
big lines to fifty big lines? Like, now, how does

1421
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,440
it change? What if I change my stack by it?

1422
01:02:21,519 --> 01:02:24,519
Like so you just take this real situation that you

1423
01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:26,360
were reviewing and end up testing it in a bunch

1424
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,599
of different ways. Researching it in a bunch of different ways.

1425
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: I think that's the most productive way to like coach

1426
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:32,079
people and learn yourself.

1427
01:02:32,199 --> 01:02:36,599
Speaker 3: Let's say a winning, a winning low stakes cash game

1428
01:02:36,639 --> 01:02:39,519
player who plays live watches this and they have a

1429
01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:42,079
good ROI, but they simply don't have the money to

1430
01:02:42,199 --> 01:02:45,039
move up or you know, their their overhead is to

1431
01:02:45,079 --> 01:02:47,920
the point where they're doing good, but you know they're

1432
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:53,079
not getting rich. Would you coaching them be able to

1433
01:02:53,159 --> 01:02:56,320
unlock something to where they can progress forward?

1434
01:02:56,679 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: I think so, And I mean the biggest or not

1435
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,519
the biggest thing, but one of the biggest things about

1436
01:03:00,519 --> 01:03:02,760
like somebody, Like in my situation, it's like I've made

1437
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:08,519
a bunch of mistakes along the way, whether it's tournament uh.

1438
01:03:08,239 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: Game selection study.

1439
01:03:10,639 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 2: Like one of the one of the main problems, Like

1440
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,639
one of the main mistakes I made early in my

1441
01:03:14,679 --> 01:03:17,119
career was when I tried to make more money, I

1442
01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:19,840
tried to just play more volume. I didn't focus enough

1443
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,719
on getting better. So that's like something I can tell

1444
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,800
somebody right now, that's a very obvious one. But it's

1445
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,960
like I was stuck for a couple of years, not

1446
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,079
necessarily stuck, but like that's that's that wasn't the proper mindset.

1447
01:03:29,079 --> 01:03:31,480
If I wanted to you know, eventually get rich and

1448
01:03:31,559 --> 01:03:34,719
like make ten times as much money. So yeah, I

1449
01:03:34,719 --> 01:03:37,599
think like the experience of just coming from nothing, you know,

1450
01:03:37,679 --> 01:03:39,599
like I didn't Mike. My dad was a truck driver,

1451
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,280
my mom was a dental hygienis, you know, like we

1452
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,599
lived month to month. I never had a rich family,

1453
01:03:44,679 --> 01:03:48,000
never had rich relatives. Everything I made was for myself.

1454
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:53,280
Uh So, like I've gone through this entire trajectory of

1455
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,719
having no money, coming from no money to like reaching

1456
01:03:56,719 --> 01:03:58,199
like near the top of poker or whatever.

1457
01:03:58,559 --> 01:03:59,639
Speaker 1: And uh I think.

1458
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 2: There's just like a wealth of experience in that, both

1459
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,920
in poker strategy and in like self management, you know.

1460
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:06,840
So I think there's a lot of value in that

1461
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:07,239
for sure.

1462
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 3: Final question, what has poker and the experience of reaching

1463
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,280
the top and staying at the top taught you about

1464
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,440
life that someone watching this can take away from and

1465
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,119
apply to their life as they are probably not a

1466
01:04:22,119 --> 01:04:25,599
poker player, but they could learn from from what you've

1467
01:04:25,639 --> 01:04:26,039
been through.

1468
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:27,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question.

1469
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,039
Speaker 2: And two things really stick out to me, and they're

1470
01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:34,760
both extremely valuable. And one is nobody really cares about you.

1471
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:36,599
And I don't mean that in the negative way, Like

1472
01:04:36,679 --> 01:04:39,159
you know, everybody, you know, like everyone's heartless. What I

1473
01:04:39,199 --> 01:04:42,400
mean is like when you're on a downswing in poker,

1474
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,960
it's very easy to be like the oh woe is me,

1475
01:04:45,079 --> 01:04:47,360
like like all this pity, like all this self pity,

1476
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,960
and it is just completely unproductive, Like it does absolutely

1477
01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:54,800
nothing for you. Like even like your closest friends that

1478
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,920
like acknowledge that you're on a crazy down swing, like yeah,

1479
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,480
that sucks, man, Like I really feel for and you're like,

1480
01:05:00,519 --> 01:05:02,159
let's work together and try to grind it out. But

1481
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,679
like like you got to dig yourself out, you know,

1482
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,760
like nobody's gonna save you. Like self pity is just

1483
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:12,559
like the ultimate handicap, Like it's just going to destroy you.

1484
01:05:12,639 --> 01:05:15,280
There's absolutely no reason to fall into that. And it's

1485
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,960
you know, it's obviously we all have some amount of

1486
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,440
self pity when things aren't going wrong, but like if

1487
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,199
you can get great at dealing with that and being like, Okay,

1488
01:05:23,239 --> 01:05:25,079
I'm not gonna sit there and complain. I'm not going

1489
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:27,039
to be like this negative Oh oh I'm so broke

1490
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:30,119
guy like that type of shit, Like that's if you

1491
01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:33,039
can master that, like you're incredible, then the second thing,

1492
01:05:33,079 --> 01:05:37,039
and it's like kind of similar, but like poker teaches

1493
01:05:37,079 --> 01:05:39,920
you that, like I was saying before, you can spend

1494
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:43,159
months working extremely hard preparing for like one of these

1495
01:05:43,199 --> 01:05:46,159
tritons or whatever, spending like so much time and effort

1496
01:05:46,239 --> 01:05:48,440
to like perform well and be good, and it just

1497
01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:51,360
completely not go your way. And that is dealing with

1498
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,760
that and building the experience and the resilience that that

1499
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,719
will teach you is just like such a valuable life

1500
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,119
lesson because that's just gonna happen over and over and

1501
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:00,760
over and over with you, you know, whether it's with

1502
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,119
your relationships or anything. You know, like things you're really

1503
01:06:05,159 --> 01:06:07,639
gonna want and you've worked really really hard for they're

1504
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:08,920
not going to go the way you want them to,

1505
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:11,599
and being able to say, like, you know what, all right,

1506
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,840
took my lumps, I'm gonna get back up. We're gonna

1507
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,400
keep going, like and poker's just fantastic at teaching you

1508
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,920
that because you know, there's variant, there's so much variance

1509
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,280
in play, you could play absolutely perfect and just get wrecked.

1510
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: So I think those are two really really important lessons.

1511
01:06:24,639 --> 01:06:26,639
Speaker 3: All right, Seth Davis, thanks for being on the show.

1512
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,360
Follow this Man on YouTube. Seth Davies one, two, three.

1513
01:06:29,519 --> 01:06:32,639
He's got five thousand subscribers. He'd better have like ten

1514
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:34,519
thousands at the end of the summer. That'd be great, great,

1515
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,079
awesome content. Thank you again. I appreciate you joining, happy

1516
01:06:38,079 --> 01:06:39,960
to be here for the people watching. Please subscribe to

1517
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,840
the video. Like the video, leave a comment, and make

1518
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,400
a suggestion to the comments on which guests you would

1519
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,159
like to see. No names are off limits because Seth

1520
01:06:48,159 --> 01:06:50,840
has all the phone numbers, so I'll probably get them on.

1521
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: The show they are. Thanks for a lot. Tiger Woods

1522
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:54,599
all text tiger Woods.

1523
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:56,199
Speaker 3: I'm only new to that.