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Speaker 1: The reason why, for example, even in the kind of

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early Christian tradition or the late Jewish tradition, this this

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idea that the that the demons are the spirits of

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the Nephilim, right of the great men before the flood.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: This is exactly what you're saying, Like, it's exactly what

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you're saying, is that there are these principalities, these great

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men of old that were kings and great men before

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our world, and they still linger and they still have influence,

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but they're not they're disconnected from the hierarchy right now,

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you know. And that's what happens not just in in

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our mythologies, but it's also the way that the ancient

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mythologies are set up, which is that once you know,

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once Zeus has become the king of the gods, then

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the Titans are now a bunch of monstrous demons that

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that are that that are dangerous and you know, live

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on the outskirts of the world world all these different levels.

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Speaker 3: This is also hard functions.

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Speaker 1: And you can understand that there are memories that participate

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in your story, that in your family story, in everything,

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that are fragments of worlds before you that you don't

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completely understand, but that nonetheless are part of your world, right,

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ways of doing things that your mother does that if

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you ask her why she does them, you don't know.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't know why she does them. Like you said,

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this is just how we do.

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Speaker 1: Things, Jonathan, I don't know what it is, but it's

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connected to some ancient pattern that no longer has meaning

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but is still influencing you. Right, And so this is

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not just WU, Like there is a WU aspect of

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what we're saying, but this is we're actually talking about

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how the world kind of plays itself out.

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Speaker 3: This is Jonathan Peshel, Welcome to the symbolic world.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, I'm here with Deacon Seraphim Richard Roland. We're

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gonna start this way. He is the same person.

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Speaker 2: About it he is.

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Speaker 1: He is now a deacon, and he dresses like a deacon.

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And he's got a nice haircut too. Seems like you've

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got a better haircut since you're a deacon.

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Speaker 2: Is that? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I actually haven't cut my hair since I was made

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a deacon. Oh, I just had to put a bunch

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of stuff in it to make it all lay down,

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because otherwise it poofs.

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Speaker 3: So are you gonna have the ponytail at some point.

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Speaker 4: It seems to be the direction things are going. Jonathan,

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all right, all right, I think there's a I think

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there's you know, one of my my dear beloved now

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brothers in the Lord, a wonderful proto deacon who sometimes

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listens to these episodes, who who you know, I'd break

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his heart if I didn't at least try. Also, my

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wife has just been trying to get me to grow

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my hair out along for a long time. So anyway,

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so we're gonna try it. We're gonna try it. I

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don't know who it's a. It's a it's a Peltvic,

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that's for sure, but we're gonna we're gonna try it.

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Speaker 1: So and so today th repo, we're recording this on

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the fourth of.

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Speaker 2: July, on the birthday of America. There you go.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, we have the first of July here.

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Speaker 4: We've got to teach you things about American history for

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the inevitable. You know, when Canada becomes.

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Speaker 2: Canada becomes the state.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well we have the first of July here in Canada,

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but in Quebec where I am, we literally do not

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celebrate it except for a few English speaking places. So

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where I am, there are towns that do celebrate it

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and towns that don't celebrate it.

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Speaker 2: That's that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we celebrate the twenty fourth of June, which is

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the Saint John the Baptist Day, which is our Quebec

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like French Canadian.

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Speaker 4: I mean, is it's just you're just trying to flex

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on me here with the Saint John thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah, Actually our nation national holidays is a

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Saints Day, all.

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Speaker 4: Right, all right, Well I gotta I gotta grudgingly give

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that one, all.

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Speaker 3: Right, So how do you want to go about this?

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You want to talk about a lot of things today.

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Speaker 4: So fifty years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence,

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which happened on this day. Fifty years after signing the

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Declaration of Independence, John Adams Thomas Jefferson died on July

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the fourth, within like an hour of each other.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And in fact, John Adams is famous for having said,

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like his last words were sort of a grudging Jefferson lives,

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you know, kind of like I thought I was going

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to outlive him. Actually Jefferson wasn't alife. Jefferson had died

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about an hour or two earlier. It just Adams didn't

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just didn't.

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Speaker 3: Know didn't have the internet at a time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, that's that is true, Jonathan, They did

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not have the Internet at the time.

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Speaker 2: These are the kind of profound.

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Speaker 4: Historical insights you get to come to the symbolic world everybody.

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So I would I would just suggest that in a

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thousand years, whenever whatever America has become, or whatever's left

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of us or whatever I'm in, God knows, right, whatever

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America has become in a thousand years, this is the

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sort of story that if people remember it, they will

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look back on it and say this is probably made up,

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Like obviously this couldn't have really happened.

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Speaker 2: It's a little too tidy.

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Speaker 4: It would be like saying Abraham Lincoln and JFK were

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assassinated on the same day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, which they were, I know, Yeah, like like like

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that would just be a little too tidy.

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Speaker 4: That would be a little too convenient. It's a little

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to you know, legendary mythical, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Right, So.

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Speaker 4: I what I want to talk about today is is

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the basically the idea of like a titular spirit and

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this is uh, this is having this has to do

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with kind of connecting to the last last couple of

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I know it's been a little while since we did

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one of these just because of schedules, but the last

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last couple of Universal History videos that we did, we're

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looking at the Voyage of Saint Brendan, right and kind

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of dancing around all of this stuff. We've been kind

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of hanging out, you know, in in Hibernia, like hanging

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in Ireland a little bit. Obviously one of the big

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things that people are very interested in right now, and

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it seems to be something I'm getting asked about more

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and more in just various contexts.

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Speaker 2: Doing the stuff that I do.

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Speaker 4: Is like, well, what's what's going on with the fairies?

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Like our faeries real? And if they are, is that

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a problem? And like what's the deal? And are they

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maybe this kind of neutral spirit and all these different things.

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And there's that crazy passage in the Voyage of Same

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Brendan whereas like they come to a church on an

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island and the church is not inhabited by humans.

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Speaker 2: They're not humans, they're not angels. What's going on there?

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Speaker 4: Brendan is basically told, it's not really any of your business.

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You don't need to worry about it. You know, it's like, okay,

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what's going on out there?

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Speaker 2: By the way, there were these.

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Speaker 4: These legends even quite late, I mean, not even really

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the like in the early modern period in fourteen thirty three,

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there were sailors in the Baltic Sea who fished up

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a merman who had a bishop's miter sort of growing

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out of his head and a staff in his hand,

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and like either wearing a robe or like stuff that

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looked like a robe.

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Speaker 2: Of course, modern people are like, oh.

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Speaker 4: They just fished up a squid, and they were confused. Well,

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the problem with that explanation is that they took him

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to the king of Poland, where he remained alive for

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several days, and wanted to basically like keep him as

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a curiosity. And then he he didn't speak, but he's

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supposed to have sort of begged all of the other

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bishops who had come to see him, like sort of

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begged them in a kind of a brotherly way, let

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me go back to my element. So two of the

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bishops take him back to the sea, and he jumps

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back in the water, makes the sign of the cross,

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and disappears under the waves. I mean, this is a

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story it's written in it's written in a couple of

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different chronicles from that era, and I probably shouldn't have

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just let out with that guy because.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, fourth of July guys.

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Speaker 4: You know, but I mean that's a obviously it's a

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crazy story, Like what do you what do you do

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with that? Like, it's not just mermaids, it's like bishop mermaids,

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which I suppose at some point, you know, if if

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there's at least one baptized mermaid, eventually they're going to

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need a church down there, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's.

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Speaker 4: This idea that there might be another group of people

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that has, you know, another group of beings that that

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has something to do with us but not anymore, or

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that maybe used to have something to do with us

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but doesn't anymore, or or who have like a kind

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of a third order of existence. Right, this is basically

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kind of the idea that develops with fairies. So I

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actually want to kind of look at that idea. But

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I want to go back a little bit further than

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fairies a little bit and maybe actually get your insights

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on a couple of things from the Bronze Age, and

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then we'll kind of you know, set up. So I

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feel like I feel like we just we're going to

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cover all of this today.

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Speaker 1: It's all right, Yeah, we've got to go.

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Speaker 2: To the death, yeah, Jefferson.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we can do it all in like

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a tidy four or five hours.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while since we did one of these.

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We got to catch up, all right.

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Speaker 4: So over on the Great Tales podcast, which I've been

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doing with father Andrew Stephen Damk, we've been covering the

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theban plays Bi Sophocles.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: See, these are the stories of Oedipus, the King Oedipus

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at Colonists and then Antigony, which you know a lot

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of people probably read in school, and it's been really

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fun reading them, uh and just discussing them. I think

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they're extremely I mean, the plays really hold up. There's

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a reason that we read things, you know, written to

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you know, more than two thousand years ago, and the

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plays really hold up. And in fact, I strongly recommend

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to people, first of all, you go check out those

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episodes if you want to deep dive on those. Also

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that you check out audible dot Com has a really

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cool audio drama of of of like audio drama of

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the true of those trilogy of plays, and it's like

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it's like Hollywood actors doing all the parts. And yeah,

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it's quite I mean, they're quite good.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was.

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Speaker 4: I was working, you know, like eighteen hour days this

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last week, and so I was just like listening all

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day to uh audio dramas and plays and things like that,

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and uh, they're really really strong, and I think much

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more compelling than just reading them on the page. But

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in these plays, obviously, I think most people know the

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story of Oedipus. This is a guy who famously, you know,

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had a psychological condition, you know, a complex named after him.

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You're basically like, your one goal in life is never

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to get a psychological complex named after you. I feel like, yeah,

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so this is famously you know, he's the guy who

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kills his father, Mary's his mother, has four children, curses

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the land because of the sins that he has committed

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in the eyes of the gods, and all of this,

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of course he does completely unwittingly, which is which is

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why the story is actually.

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Speaker 2: Compelling in some way, you know, it's it's because he's.

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Speaker 4: The whole reason that this has happened is because his

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parents sent him away to try to avoid their fate,

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and then he comes back to them trying to avoid

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his fate. And so it's you know, everybody's there's all

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these prophecies, but the prophecies are just sort of just

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fuzzy enough that people try to people actually bring them

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about by trying to avoid them. So all these things

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happened to Oedipus, and he's not able to He's you know,

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doesn't know what's going on. He's kind of caught up

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in the web of everything. The first play in the order,

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though it's actually the second one that was written, Antigony,

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which happens after Oedipus's death, was actually written first. In fact,

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when Sophocles wrote Antigony, they thought it was such a

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good play that they they made him a general, you know,

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because obviously that's.

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Speaker 2: What you so that's he's do with great play? How

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that works?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, great play rights you know, probably can also lead armies.

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And he was actually a relatively successful general by the way,

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just to say like he he lived through a pretty

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violent period in history of Athens and made it.

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Speaker 2: To old age.

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Speaker 4: So so yeah, so in the very first play in

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the series, uh, you know, chronologically speaking, it's all about Basically,

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Oedipus is like everything's going wrong. There's famine, there's plague,

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all these different things, and they're happening because the land

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is cursed, because the king is cursed because of the

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things that he's.

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Speaker 2: Done that he doesn't know he's done. And then sort

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of everything.

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Speaker 4: Like within the space of like an hour, he finds

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out the truth about everything, and it culminates with you know,

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Joe Casta, his his wife slash mother. You know, she

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hangs herself and then Oedipist takes her cloak pins and

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puts both of his eyes out. The description of the

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scene because all of this happens sort of off stage and

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then you have like the servants describing it afterwards. But

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the description is incredibly traumatic. I mean, it's so it's

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so great, it's so great, but also it's just like

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the whole you're just wincing the whole time. So Oedipus

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puts his eyes out and begins to wander, and the

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beginning of the second play in the trilogy, which is

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which happens some number of years it's not really clear,

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but some number of years after the first play Oedipus

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the King. We have edifice at Colonists where Oedipus comes

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to Athens and he comes to the a grove that

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is dedicated to the furies.

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Speaker 2: Which will turn out to be quite important.

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Speaker 4: And uh, once he once he finds out that's where

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he is, you know, obviously he's blind, so he has

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to ask people.

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Speaker 2: But once he finds out that's.

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Speaker 4: Where he is, he realizes that that this that this

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is going to be the fulfillment of the prophecy. You

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know that that there's another problem. So we had all

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those prophecies about him and you know, the curse on

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his family in the first play. In the second play,

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we find out there's another prophecy, which is that he's

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going to come to a place that's sacred to the furies,

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and that's where he's going to be buried, and his burial,

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his tomb will be a blessing to those whom he

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is buried with that he'll sort of protect them, and

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then he'll also he'll be a curse to those who

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cast him out.

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Speaker 2: That is his native city of Thebes.

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Speaker 4: So the rest of the play is actually a conflict

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between his two sons and between the you know, who

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are in a civil war with each other. And then

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the city of the men, of the city of Athens,

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led by theseus, you know, the famous hero killed Minutor.

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Speaker 2: All of this to.

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Speaker 4: Basically like it's a contest or, it's a struggle over

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who's going to get Oedipus's body when he dies, right,

300
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And so eventually Oedipus dies and he's buried there at

301
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Colonists and Athens right under Mars Hill the Areopagus, and

302
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I mean this the site is still I mean still

303
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there to this day.

304
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Speaker 2: And then.

305
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Speaker 4: In Sophocles's day there were at least three tombs of

306
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,720
that were purported to be the burial side of of Oedipus.

307
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One was outside of Thebes, one is there in Athens

308
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,720
near the Areopagus, and the other is in a different Colonists.

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Colonists is the name of a neighborhood outside of Athens.

310
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It's now inside of Athens proper since the city has grown.

311
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But then also there's another Colonist somewhere in Greece. So

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00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:41,279
the play is basically saying, no, he was, he was,

313
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,279
it was bard at Colonists. But it's like this one,

314
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,120
it's this one here, this is the real tone. This

315
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,799
is the genuine tone. But one of the things that

316
00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:50,759
happens over the course of that poem that is very

317
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,600
interesting to me is the over the course of the play,

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it's very interesting to me is the way in which

319
00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:02,440
Oedipus is transformed into a what we would call or

320
00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,720
what they would have called a damon, right, you know,

321
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,160
that is you know, obviously this is where we get

322
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,240
a word demon from. I think sometimes people make a

323
00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:12,640
big deal about and I'm pretty sure I've done this,

324
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,079
so not picking on anybody, but about the you know,

325
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,079
like the word demon or devil, and how it means

326
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:24,839
to like divide, you know, but that was that was

327
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,799
taken in a mostly positive sense in the ancient world.

328
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,880
Speaker 2: So the idea was that a daemon.

329
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 4: Or like a you could say, like a titular spirit, right,

330
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,400
the spirit of a place is the one who divides

331
00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:42,119
and says what's in and what's out right, what's what's

332
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,039
in the you know, what's you know, So these are

333
00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:49,119
they're like boundary spirits or territorial spirits, different ways of

334
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,960
thinking about it. And over the course of the play,

335
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:53,880
Oedipus kind of starts transforming into one, so he goes

336
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,480
from being this this sort of totally helpless person, which

337
00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:00,279
he's been since since the end of a previous play,

338
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,440
you know, blind and helpless and everything too. Suddenly he's

339
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,279
given prophetic powers. He's not going to apollo for oracles. Instead,

340
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,359
he's able to actually pronounce blessings and curses. He's able

341
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,680
to predict the future. He's able to sort of see,

342
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,200
here's what's going to happen when you know, when I'm dead,

343
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,039
when I'm buried, when I'm gone, Here's what's gonna happen

344
00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:18,279
to my sons, Here's.

345
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Speaker 2: How you know?

346
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,759
Speaker 4: And you know, there's there's a very vivid scene in

347
00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:24,160
which he curses to you know, the two of his sons,

348
00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:28,480
blesses his daughter's curses his sons, and then he's buried.

349
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,039
Speaker 2: And the reason that.

350
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:34,319
Speaker 4: Oedipus is able to transform in this way is because

351
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,079
Oedipus is a hero, right in the old classical sense

352
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:44,480
of the term. So heroes in classical mythology are people

353
00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:45,880
who kill monsters.

354
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 2: That's pretty much the only qualification they're not.

355
00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:53,559
Speaker 4: They don't have to be like morally exemplary people, even

356
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,720
kind of by the standards of their own time, but

357
00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,079
they have to be people who kill monsters. And so

358
00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:02,559
you know, if you think about like all the heroes

359
00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:04,799
from that generation, so this would have been the generation

360
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,119
before the Iliad and the Odyssey. All the heroes of

361
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the generation are the heroes who fought the Medusa and

362
00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:16,079
who fought the you know, all the different things Hercules

363
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,519
fought and and who fought the Minutor and so on

364
00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:21,920
and so forth, right, and so it's sort of by

365
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,160
by fighting the monsters, they are then the ones who

366
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,279
kind of get to draw a line around the city, right,

367
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,759
who get to draw a line of the civiliss around

368
00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:35,640
the civilization and say this is what's in and this

369
00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:38,720
is what's out. And so when they die, they become

370
00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:43,240
these titular spirits. So anyway, I've talked a long time,

371
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,519
Do you want to there are a couple of things

372
00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:49,720
about the Oedipus story that I would really like to

373
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:56,079
actually get your insights on. So the first is is

374
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,880
the the the you encounter with the sphinx. Yeah, right,

375
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,599
so I think people kind of know the story. This

376
00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:05,920
is one of the things Oedipus is doing when he's

377
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,079
a young man, before he comes to uh, before he

378
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,200
becomes the king of Thebes.

379
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 2: Thebes is being.

380
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,279
Speaker 4: Basically tyrannized by this sphinx is sort of like a

381
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,160
half woman, half lion monster. Right, It's related to the

382
00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:24,359
terubim and like all these other kind of riddling, you know,

383
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:29,880
hybrid creatures. And the sphinx has a riddle and nobody

384
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,839
can nobody can solve the riddle, and so and basically

385
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,359
eventually Kreon says, Okay, whoever solved the riddle can be

386
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,440
king of Thebes. So Oedipis goes to the sphinx and

387
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,240
gets the riddle. And the riddle is something like, you

388
00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:49,319
know what has four legs in the morning, two legs

389
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,160
in the afternoon, and three legs at night. By the way,

390
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,039
this riddle is not in the play. It just the

391
00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:57,480
play just refers to the fact that Oedipus solve the

392
00:20:57,519 --> 00:20:59,920
riddle and killed the sphinx, but it does not actually

393
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:02,359
count the riddle on the play. And there's a couple

394
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,200
of different versions of the riddle, but this is the best,

395
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,680
best known one. And then Oedipus says, oh, obviously, it's

396
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,799
a it's an old man, you know, it's a it's

397
00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:14,759
a it's a baby in the morning, because he's crawling

398
00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:17,160
on all fours, and then a fully grown man in

399
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,720
the middle of the day, and then an old man you.

400
00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: Know who has to like go with a staff.

401
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,799
Speaker 4: Right, so he's being led by uh because you know

402
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,319
he's so So basically the riddle has to do with

403
00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:32,039
the kind of the the the cycle of man, the

404
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,480
life of a man, right, And the Sphinx gets really

405
00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:39,759
upset by this, and in some uh, in some versions,

406
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,079
she kills herselves self, and in other versions Oedipus kills her.

407
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,319
But in any case, Oedipus defeats the Sphinx. So, like,

408
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,319
what's going on with this riddle, Jonathan.

409
00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 3: What's going on with the riddle? I mean, it's not that,

410
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,079
it's not.

411
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: It all.

412
00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 3: It's all the same thing.

413
00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:05,799
Speaker 1: So that is the Sphinx, the riddle, riddle as a riddle,

414
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:11,720
and then the riddle itself. They all manifest the same problem,

415
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,079
which is, how do you see unity in difference or

416
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,880
how do you in multiplicity or how do you see

417
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:19,960
unity in change?

418
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 2: Right?

419
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,559
Speaker 3: So you have you have this situation where you have

420
00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:26,359
different things that are presented to you and how do

421
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,920
you capture what it is?

422
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 2: Right?

423
00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: And so that's what killing a monster is like. Because

424
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:36,359
a monster is always a hybrid. It always presents itself

425
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,559
as an excess, as something that is that that doesn't

426
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,680
seem to make sense. It doesn't fit, it's it doesn't

427
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,440
and so killing the monster in some ways is fixing it. Right.

428
00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:50,240
So the image of especially the image of Saint Michael

429
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,359
right piercing the dragon, what you're doing is you got

430
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,880
something that you can't get a grip on. It's it's slithering,

431
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,359
it doesn't it doesn't make sense. It's it's confus using,

432
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:02,920
it doesn't have an identity. And so I fix it, right,

433
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,079
I smash it and I I stop it from moving,

434
00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:11,079
and I make it into something. So that's that's what's

435
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,480
important about understanding the idea of what the what the

436
00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:17,400
monster is, and then what a riddle is, right, a

437
00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:23,039
riddle is it's a question. Uh, it's a it's a puzzle,

438
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,799
and then you have to solve the puzzle. But then

439
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,759
in the riddle itself, which is it? The sphinx presents

440
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,039
three things that don't seem to fit together, and the answer,

441
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,920
of course is man. But the it's a bigger question

442
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,759
than that, because in some ways he's asking something.

443
00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 3: Like what is what is identity?

444
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:44,839
Speaker 2: Like what.

445
00:23:46,599 --> 00:23:49,559
Speaker 1: Man is the solution to the riddle. Man is a

446
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,920
solution to all the riddles, right, because Man is the

447
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,480
one who's able to do that. Man is the one

448
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,880
who's able to see unity and multiplicity. Man is the

449
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,960
one who's able to see pass and is able to

450
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,920
fix things. You know, animals don't so much. They can't

451
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,920
like they don't as so much like fixed identities. They

452
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:09,799
don't name things.

453
00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: So you can think that when when Oedipus is killing

454
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,680
the Sphinx, he's naming the sphinx.

455
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: It's one version of it, right, He's basically making it

456
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:24,279
into inhabitable and inhabitable place something that is related to him.

457
00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:27,400
And so that's why often killing a monster is related

458
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,440
to setting up a land, right, So you kill the

459
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:33,839
monster and then the monster becomes the land in which

460
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,200
you live, It becomes your nation, it becomes because that's

461
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,480
what that's what killing a monster is.

462
00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: Well, that the the the origin story for the people

463
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,559
of Thebes is that you know, the hero Cadmus kills

464
00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:50,319
a dragon and then he sows the earth with the

465
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:56,119
dragon's teeth and those teeth grow into the people of Thebes.

466
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so that's but there are so many

467
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,440
examples that we can't even you know. I mean the

468
00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:04,720
Israelites go into the Promised Land, which they find to

469
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,079
find giants. You have to kill the giants and then

470
00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:10,559
establish yourself, uh, you know. And you can understand this

471
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,359
is a harder one for people to understand because there's

472
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,079
a relationship also between the monster and the strange or

473
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,400
the stranger, you know. And so you you go, there's

474
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,599
strangers in a place, and they don't they're not connected

475
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,839
to you, and so you have to find.

476
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: A solution to that. You have to join them with you.

477
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: There are different ways to do that, and in the stories,

478
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,680
one of the ways is to get rid of them,

479
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:36,799
you know. Sadly that's part of how that's how you

480
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,440
establish one of the ways you establish a land, and

481
00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:43,319
so that's why, you know, and so that's what that

482
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,319
story is very powerful one because in some ways what

483
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,240
the what's happening there is if you can do that,

484
00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,240
then you become the king, which makes sense, right, If

485
00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,200
you can establish the land, then you become the king

486
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:58,319
of that land if you can and so this is

487
00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:00,799
this has practical application Asians in anything.

488
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: It's like you you you start a new job.

489
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:07,839
Speaker 4: Actually don't presents itself. Sorry, we don't actually have kings

490
00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:09,319
today because it's July the fourth.

491
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: Right, But.

492
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:13,759
Speaker 1: You know, you start a new job and you and

493
00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:15,759
it's a puzzle to you. You don't know what it is,

494
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,240
and so you have to figure out a way to

495
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,799
make it and not a monster anymore.

496
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 3: You have to tame it. Once you've tamed it, then

497
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,160
you become the king.

498
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: Right in some ways, you rule over that area of

499
00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:30,000
your life, and that that a sin is like that too, right.

500
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:33,960
A sin is something that is not fitting right. It's

501
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920
pulling you apart, it's ripping you into to pieces. And

502
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,400
so if you can master it, you kind of fix it,

503
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,839
then you become the king.

504
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: Right.

505
00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 4: So the monster that the crossroads seem to have a

506
00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:52,759
really important place in the story of Benefice. So and

507
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,160
this will come up because I promise we're going to

508
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,160
get too weird fairy stories before the end of this recording.

509
00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:02,079
We're actually doing really good on time, so I'm I'm optimistic.

510
00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:07,920
So crossroads have a very important place in the story

511
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,960
of the life of Oedipus his you know, famously he

512
00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:15,039
kills his father Lios at a place where three roads

513
00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:18,839
meet the Sphinx is also kind of like terrorizing the city,

514
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,240
but she's not inside the city.

515
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: She's at the crossroads.

516
00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:24,759
Speaker 4: She's basically like keeping anybody from going in or coming

517
00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:30,640
out of the city, right, And there's also there's also

518
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,200
some other interesting things. I mean, even the place where

519
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:36,559
even the place where Oedipus finally, you know, has his

520
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,759
final rest is it's at a it's a it's it's

521
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,480
it's outside of the city in this case, it's outside

522
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,720
of the city of Athens at this particular time in history.

523
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: And it's it's in a.

524
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 4: Grow that is that is, you know, dedicated to the

525
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:54,160
furies or sometimes as they would call them, like the

526
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,759
the kindly goddesses, which is directly relevant actually to talking

527
00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:03,920
about fairies, because the furies are only kindly goddesses, like

528
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,119
in the same sense that people who like call fairies

529
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,720
the good people. Right, it's a euphemism at best, you know,

530
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,200
wishful thinking. It's kind of like because anybody who has

531
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:17,480
read any of the stories that involve the furies knows that,

532
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,839
you know, you don't want to get their attention. You know,

533
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,359
if the furies are showing up, it's.

534
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: A bad time.

535
00:28:24,519 --> 00:28:26,839
Speaker 4: But the idea is the furies are the final court

536
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:35,240
of appeal for people who have violated social taboos, and so,

537
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,200
typically speaking, people who would make appeals to the furies

538
00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:42,279
are husbands or wives whose spouses have been unfaithful to them.

539
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:46,240
They are parents whose children have dishonored them or betrayed them.

540
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:50,119
They are people who have been betrayed by their rulers,

541
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,039
or rulers who've been betrayed by their people, and so

542
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:52,880
on and so forth.

543
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: So, like, here's Oedipus, who's a hero. You know, he's

544
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,960
the one who killed the Sphinx.

545
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:02,599
Speaker 4: He's the one that gives you know, identity to themes

546
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:07,880
all this different stuff. But also he's the person who's

547
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:13,440
like transgressed all of the basically two of the three

548
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:16,640
most fundamental social taboos. If he had ever violated the

549
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,599
guest host relationship, then then he'd have like the trifecta. Right,

550
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:25,000
So he's he's committed intests, He's he's committed patricide, and

551
00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:30,839
he uh boy, this is gonna get this video demonetized.

552
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,960
You know, somehow would be fine, I don't know, but

553
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:38,920
but but he's basically he's violated all of these social

554
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,079
taboos and yet he's going to become a hero, and

555
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:52,240
he's going to inhabit the place where uh the goddesses

556
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:56,319
who are in charge of enforcing exactly the kinds of

557
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,400
laws that he broke, you know, unwittingly in his case.

558
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,000
But it doesn't really matter, right, you know, like pollution

559
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:04,480
is pollution. It doesn't matter if you meant to do

560
00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:10,079
it right. And there's a whole sort of like one

561
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:12,160
of the important parts of the story is that there's

562
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,200
like a certain purification right that he has to do,

563
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:16,200
or that somebody has to do on his behalf to

564
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:18,680
kind of appease the furies so that his body can

565
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,119
rest there. And I guess the other thing that I

566
00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:25,279
would love to kind of get your ideas on is

567
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:28,039
that the way that this purification right is done, it's

568
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,759
very specifically pointed out that he's.

569
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,319
Speaker 2: Not to use.

570
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,279
Speaker 4: You're supposed to pour out a drink offering. It's kind

571
00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:38,640
of a typical way of appeasing a local spirit in

572
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,960
the ancient world. You're supposed to pour out a drink offering,

573
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,319
and very specifically is supposed to be water and honey

574
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,279
mixed together, but no wine. And it's very specifically said

575
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:52,559
you can't use any wine for this, and there are

576
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,920
there's a phrase that is used throughout this play regarding

577
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,079
Oedipus that he's the sober man, or he's the and

578
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,920
without wine. Yeah, so he's he himself, you know. Is

579
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:08,039
is kind of like associated with this kind of very

580
00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:11,480
strict sobriety. But then also the goddesses and I've done

581
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,000
some digging into this, and it does seem as though

582
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:16,279
this is that this is a real ritual detail that

583
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:21,480
the furies, you know, very specifically them and a couple

584
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,519
of other kind of what are called cathonic deities like

585
00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:27,160
earth deities, you know, tend to be older, scarier, darker

586
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,880
gods in general, that they don't have that they're you know,

587
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:34,759
very specifically, you know, in what we know about the

588
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,240
rituals and the ways that they were worshiped, that wine

589
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,839
is very specifically prohibited in in their in their worship. Yeah,

590
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:47,920
So what's going on in all of this?

591
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: The ones and let's start with the first part in

592
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:57,319
and so and so the this is going to be

593
00:31:58,039 --> 00:32:00,200
this again is one of these things where you're kind

594
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,200
of forced me to talk about stuff that's very difficult

595
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:02,880
to talk about.

596
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,319
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, that's the only reason I'm here, don you.

597
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:08,119
Speaker 3: Just did all right, and so okay.

598
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,519
Speaker 1: But the way to understand it is really to understand

599
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:12,759
it to Christ. Christ gives us the key to the

600
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:17,160
story of Oedipus, right, which is that there is a

601
00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:23,079
difference between Oedipus and a normal transgressor of the taboos.

602
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:23,319
Speaker 2: Right.

603
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,359
Speaker 1: And the difference is, of course that he's innocent, right.

604
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:32,880
He actually isn't guilty in himself. He's going through the

605
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,880
motions that he's actually transgressing the taboos, but he's not

606
00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:40,480
doing it in a guilt in a guiltful way. And

607
00:32:40,599 --> 00:32:44,519
so it's a kind of poking. There's an insight about that.

608
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,480
There's a kind of poking about what you could say,

609
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,440
the issue of the center, or the issue of establishing

610
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:56,039
a land, and how it is that in order in

611
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,759
order to establish something, you also have to gather in

612
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,079
the things that don't that don't participate into the into

613
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:05,559
for it to become something.

614
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 3: Right. So this is the problem.

615
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,759
Speaker 1: It's like at first you have a monster, and then

616
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:12,240
the monster becomes the land in which you nhabbit. What's

617
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:16,400
the difference, what's the difference between the land that is,

618
00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:20,079
what's the difference between the bitter waters in Exodus and

619
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,119
the sweet waters, right, they're the same waters, like what

620
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,640
happened for one to become the other? And there there

621
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,599
there needs to be a kind of transformation which will

622
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,720
make something exist.

623
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,799
Speaker 3: And the insight that the ancients had was.

624
00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:39,759
Speaker 1: That the character that does that in some ways has

625
00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:42,359
to kind of encompass everything, has to in some ways

626
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,359
be both the king but also the one that establishes

627
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,559
the limit and transgresses them. And so how do you

628
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,119
but you can't. It's like there's this almost like poking

629
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,519
at this, like how do we get this?

630
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: How do we get so?

631
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,759
Speaker 1: You see that in scapegoat imagery as well, this where

632
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:03,839
there's a sense in which the person that is made

633
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,239
the scapegoat and is in some ways led into transgressing

634
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,079
the taboos, is then killed, but then they become a

635
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,960
kind of protector figure for the for the town right.

636
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,880
And these are things that are hard to but in

637
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:23,719
Christ we see how in some ways Christ does all

638
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,840
of that and more right, because.

639
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:29,639
Speaker 3: Christ does, we we have a thing. We have a

640
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,679
way in the story of Christ where Christ goes.

641
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: To the end of those of death right in some

642
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,320
ways transgresses that the taboos does it both accidentally and

643
00:34:41,519 --> 00:34:44,280
willfully at the same time, which is that he does

644
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,079
it by submitting to the to the passion like being

645
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:52,039
led by others, but he also wilfully does it, which

646
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,039
is different from Oedipus. Oedipus in some ways is completely

647
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,800
like it's completely like a.

648
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,199
Speaker 3: You know, taken by his own fate, like the fates

649
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,000
make him do it. You could say, his fate makes

650
00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:10,599
him do it. But Christ Christ accepts wilfully to go.

651
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: Down that path and to kind of become the one

652
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,199
who is sacrificed outside the city, you know, who who

653
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,760
in some ways is made impure in all these different ways,

654
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,440
you know, in order to kind of reach that limit.

655
00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:28,320
So I think that that's the way to understand why

656
00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:32,480
the imagery of these types of characters seems so confusing,

657
00:35:33,159 --> 00:35:36,239
is because you're trying to get a grasp at how

658
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,119
reality functions, and you kind of have, like I said,

659
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:40,960
you have to understand that the taboos are part of

660
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:45,679
the limit, Like taboos make the land too, that which

661
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:46,320
is forbidden.

662
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 3: Saint Paul kind of pokes at that as well.

663
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,199
Speaker 1: Right, It's like the law, like that which is forbidden

664
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,800
participates in the existence of that which is permitted, like

665
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:01,039
it has a kind of weird really is a weird

666
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:02,320
relationship between the two?

667
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:06,039
Speaker 2: Does that make does that? Does that kind of make sense?

668
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:06,559
Speaker 1: Yeah?

669
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:08,639
Speaker 2: And why so?

670
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: And and that the crossroads in some ways they are

671
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,920
up they are Like I said, this is the hardest

672
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,920
symbolism to talk about because if people get it wrong,

673
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,519
they become like they become Satanists. Like when people get

674
00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,800
this this symbolism wrong, they become That's what happened with

675
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,440
the the.

676
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: That's what happened with the Saboteans.

677
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,199
Speaker 1: That's what happens with these kind of canine type fingers

678
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,840
that they get this. That's what happens with tantrism. Tantrism

679
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,480
gets this wrong. But they're playing with this symbolism, but

680
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,159
they get it, they get it wrong. But it's that

681
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,920
the crossroad is both a place that can be a

682
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:49,840
center and that is ambiguous at the outset because what

683
00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:50,239
is it?

684
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: Right?

685
00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 3: So it's like a place where one becomes many?

686
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: Right?

687
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 3: And so is that the many or is that the one?

688
00:36:58,159 --> 00:36:58,559
Which one?

689
00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:00,519
Speaker 1: Is it? It's like is it the place where the

690
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:02,840
many happens or is it the place where the one happens?

691
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:06,039
And so it has this weird kind of situation. So

692
00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:08,760
that's why you meet the devil at the crossroads still today, right,

693
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,840
all of these legends about about about the you know

694
00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:14,880
about the selling your soul to the devil is at

695
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,880
the crossroads. But then also Christ is at the center

696
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,119
of the crossroads too, by the way, because he's at

697
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:22,800
the center of the cross Yeah.

698
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 4: Sorry, I always think about I mean, even even like

699
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,760
Saint Paul meeting Christ on the road, like of all

700
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,360
kind of all places, seems to somehow kind of participate

701
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:38,599
in that.

702
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

703
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,559
Speaker 1: But it's so, and what's important to kind of understand is,

704
00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:50,239
you know, there is a mistake that people make in

705
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,840
this symbolism, and like I said, it's the tantric mistake.

706
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,679
It's this idea that where people notice that the taboo

707
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,519
plays a part in the in the the story, and

708
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:03,079
therefore they have this sense that in order to encompass

709
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:05,280
the whole story, they have to break the taboo.

710
00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: That is that they have to engage in a kind

711
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,800
of sinfulness.

712
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: And this is where a lot of occultism comes from,

713
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,199
and a lot of a lot of that stuff. But

714
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,079
like I said, once again, Christ shows us the difference, right,

715
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,840
Christ does not Christ says, scandal must happen, but woe

716
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,079
to those by who it happens. You know, Christ says,

717
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,840
Christ goes down all that road. He becomes everything the

718
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,880
Tantrists talk about, but he does it in a manner

719
00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:37,800
that is not wilful, like wilful in the sense of

720
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,000
he does it. He does it, but without wanting it

721
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,159
for himself, without wanting it, he lets it happen to him.

722
00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:50,320
But then he also participates at the same time. So

723
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,840
it's this is that's why, like, for example, that's why

724
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,599
we as Christians we see martyrdom as the highest state,

725
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:00,519
because martyrdom is.

726
00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:01,519
Speaker 3: To become impure.

727
00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: Some of the stories of the martyrs are crazy because

728
00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:09,280
the things that happened to them in an ancient society

729
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,079
would have made them exactly the type of impure being

730
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,679
that Edip has becomes. But Christians always say, you cannot

731
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,119
go towards your own martyrdom. You are not allowed to

732
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,119
seek out your martyrdom. That is a sin like that

733
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,800
is a very dangerous sin for your.

734
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: Soul to seek out your own martyrdom. Yeah, so I

735
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,679
don't know if we're this is very dangerous conversation.

736
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've read The Timeless Way of

737
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,079
Building those books.

738
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 4: Chris for Alexander, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I just I

739
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,320
just finished reading the first one and the second one

740
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,079
is like a lot more very practical kind of if

741
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:56,039
you're building a house, here's the things you should know

742
00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:57,960
kind of a thing. But the first one is is

743
00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:02,079
all of the you know, it's the forums, you know.

744
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,360
One of the things that he talks about is the

745
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:10,599
importance of of I'm gonna get this a little bit wrong,

746
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,840
but it's it's the importance of a transition point between

747
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,480
like the street and your front door. So there has

748
00:40:18,599 --> 00:40:20,519
to be a place which you know, in the old

749
00:40:20,639 --> 00:40:23,639
days like or be like a courtyard or something like that.

750
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,199
Speaker 2: Now it's like, you know, like a little rikating.

751
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 4: Porch, but it's a place where the view from the

752
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,039
that transition point is not the same as the view

753
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:38,000
from the street, you know, or as the view from

754
00:40:38,039 --> 00:40:40,079
the house. Right, And so he says like this is

755
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:42,039
one of the things, like it gives us pleasure when

756
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:49,519
we see this executed well. Right, So what's interesting to

757
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:54,559
me is when you start really digging down into stuff

758
00:40:54,599 --> 00:41:00,280
that has to do with fairies that ferries are associated with,

759
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,199
or you could put it this way, if if you're

760
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,199
ever in danger from fairies, and what everybody in the

761
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,719
medieval world agreed on is two things. One is that

762
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,079
fairies exist, and the second is that they're quite dangerous.

763
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,559
That you could you could accidentally like sort of stumble

764
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:21,840
into one, or accidentally encounter one, or just brush it

765
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,039
up against one without realizing it, and you would become

766
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,559
you know, you'd become elfshot, you'd become sick, you'd become

767
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,559
you know, touched in some particular way which would not

768
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:34,480
be good for you. And there are certain kinds of

769
00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:41,480
places that are more dangerous than others, and with fairies

770
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:47,960
in particular, it seems to be crossroads and doorways. Yeah,

771
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:50,400
these these sort of like transition points, these places where

772
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,800
they want to become many. So the idea that I

773
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,599
want to kind of put forward to people is imagine

774
00:41:58,760 --> 00:41:59,880
a world in which.

775
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:01,039
Speaker 1: You have a.

776
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,519
Speaker 4: Uh, you have all of these heroes, you have these

777
00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:10,760
titular spirits, you have these these these territorial spirits, these demons.

778
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe they're you know, just sort of like nature spirits.

779
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 4: Maybe they're the souls or the ghosts or the shades

780
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:19,960
or the demons, whatever you want.

781
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:20,559
Speaker 2: To call them of.

782
00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 4: Great heroes who lived in the past, and who's by

783
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,960
their uh, you know, by their heroism, by their actions, right,

784
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:33,360
They're the ones who you know, conferred identity upon your people.

785
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,320
And now those are the spirits that you have to

786
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,119
placate if you want to do something and have it,

787
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:42,480
you could just say, like genuinely be accepted as a

788
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,159
cohesive part of the identity of the place where you are.

789
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,159
I mean again to you know, bring up Jefferson and Adams. Right, So,

790
00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:54,760
America has certain territorial spirits.

791
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: And they seem to be we seem to be having

792
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,920
kind of of a what a what what?

793
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 4: A European friend of mine very politely calls a public

794
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:11,239
discussion right now about about basically like, you know, which

795
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:16,079
territorial spirits, which titular spirits really encompass the American identity,

796
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:24,119
and which actions truly placate them, appease them versus versus uh,

797
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,840
you know, which which actions, uh you know, are going

798
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,599
to are so un American that if we do them,

799
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:34,440
America as it is will cease to exist, right, you know,

800
00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:36,440
And this this is always sort of the this is

801
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,360
always the the the the situation of being an American

802
00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:41,719
is that you're always just I mean, if you listen

803
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,440
to the news, doesn't matter which news you listen to.

804
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,199
If you listen to the news, we are always one

805
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,639
election cycle away from completely dissolving as a country forever.

806
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: Right.

807
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 4: It's just like, you know, get this next vote wrong

808
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,760
and you can lose everything, right, and so you always

809
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,159
have this kind of strong sense of urgency. But deep

810
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,079
down inside of you know, you know, peeling back the

811
00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:05,400
layers of the you know, sensationalism and propaganda and everything,

812
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:06,280
there is this idea.

813
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: It's like if you if you.

814
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: Violate the spirit of the place too much, that whatever

815
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,639
help that spirit was giving you to help hold your

816
00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:28,960
identity together is going to be completely lost. Right, So

817
00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:31,760
like there are things that you can do that will

818
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,119
make George Washington sad, right, and if you make him

819
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:38,400
sad enough, you might not get to be a country anymore. Right,

820
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,440
That's the that's kind of the that's kind of the idea, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

821
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:46,760
the stories then the furies, then then the furies come right.

822
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:47,079
Speaker 2: Yeah.

823
00:44:48,039 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 6: Hi, this is Sarah from Hamilton and I'm very happy

824
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,760
to announce my first course with Symbolic World Scripture, The

825
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,199
Key to Reality over the span of five weeks, we

826
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,920
will look at the scriptural vision of reality through the

827
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,840
lens of the Temple. We will see how all the

828
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,519
details of Scripture orbit around the person of Jesus Christ,

829
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,079
the eternal Word of God and archetype of the world.

830
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,039
And we will see how that Christological vision firmly Earth's

831
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:18,320
in place the concrete details of Israel's Torah and story.

832
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,119
Through that lens, you will come to see how meaning

833
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,599
and matter intersect and intertwine, not only in the text

834
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:29,239
of Scripture, but in the very tapestry of reality unveiled

835
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:29,800
by the Bible.

836
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:38,679
Speaker 4: So what I want to sort of like propose then,

837
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,920
in like a kind of like a sci fi.

838
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: Scenario would be gentlethan's like, what are we doing? Where's

839
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,360
this going to happening? What's happening?

840
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 4: Imagine that you live, you know, three thousand years from now,

841
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,920
a thousand years from now, you know what, screw it,

842
00:45:56,039 --> 00:45:59,920
three hundred years from now, right in a place that

843
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:04,360
used to be called America, and something has happened, the

844
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,519
Great Calamity, the great catastrophe.

845
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:09,199
Speaker 2: We voted wrong one time, or all the.

846
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:14,639
Speaker 4: Bombs went off, or the MP's went off, or over yeah, well.

847
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: Let's not. It's science fiction. It's got to be, you know, it's.

848
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:23,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but something, you know, something happens, right, and

849
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,000
you know, America breaks up into a bunch of smaller countries,

850
00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:31,320
or another civilization comes along and replaces us or whatever. Right,

851
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,920
certainly would not be the first time something like this

852
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,760
has happened in world history, right, But.

853
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: You still got these legends.

854
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,199
Speaker 4: There were these guys Adams and Jefferson in fifty years

855
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,039
after they wrote the document that found they signed the

856
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:50,800
document that founded the previous civilization. They died on the

857
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,800
same day. And you know, there was this Hamilton guy

858
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,039
and he was a rapper for some reason, and there

859
00:46:56,159 --> 00:47:04,800
was this Right, so you've got the sort of the

860
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,800
titular spirits, the territorial spirits of America are still lingering

861
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:16,000
somewhere in the background, right, in a more enchanted age

862
00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:17,760
than the one that we live in now, possibly the

863
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,119
one that we are headed into. You know, God knows,

864
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:25,440
it's not unreasonable to imagine, you know, things like it's

865
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:26,280
the fourth of July.

866
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: We have to leave out you know, a beer and

867
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:29,360
a big.

868
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 4: Mac for for George Washington or whatever, like who's that, Oh,

869
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,800
don't worry. It's just some old it's some old spirit,

870
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:35,320
it's a fairy.

871
00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something right, Yeah, Yeah, this is the thing

872
00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:44,280
that we do. It's midsummer. You know. I think one

873
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,159
way of thinking about what fairies are, one way of

874
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,800
understanding what they are is, you know, is the old.

875
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,559
Speaker 4: The old spirits of the crossroads, right, the old titular spirits,

876
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:55,239
the old territorial spirits.

877
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: And the things that are left when something else has

878
00:47:58,559 --> 00:47:58,840
moved in.

879
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,039
Speaker 4: And in the case of a place like Ireland, it

880
00:48:02,159 --> 00:48:05,440
wasn't just that Christianity came in and replaced paganism. It's

881
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,440
that there were successive invasions, you know, you know, famously

882
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:16,280
seven according to legend of where one civilization would completely

883
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,039
wipe out the old civilization, but all that would be

884
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:21,519
left or the gods or the spirits, And you do

885
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,840
this where one hierarchy replaces another one over and over

886
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,360
and over and over again. And then Christianity comes along,

887
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,760
and so it creates this this situation, this kind of

888
00:48:33,559 --> 00:48:41,519
strangely enchanted world. And I said there were three things.

889
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,440
Maybe I said two, but there are three things that

890
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,239
everybody agrees about fairies. One is that they're quite dangerous,

891
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,480
second is that you're most likely to bump into them

892
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:51,599
in a crossroad. But the third is that fairies are

893
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:58,880
concerned with the question of their own salvation and that

894
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,679
this is actually for them. Are kind of an open question,

895
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,159
and it's going to be difficult for me to make

896
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,840
this connection, Jonathan, but I kind of feel like sometimes

897
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:22,199
the things that we're going through, the question about whether

898
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,239
or not fairies can be saved is really a question

899
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,599
about whether or not your pagan ancestors where there's any

900
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:32,239
hope for them, right, Yeah, And different Christians at different

901
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,320
times have come down in kind of different places around

902
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,480
this question. Famously, in the West during the Middle Ages,

903
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,920
most people are hardliners. There's no salvation for the pagans,

904
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:45,519
you know, who are not baptized. I'm not saying that's

905
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:47,639
the you know what, all Christians everywhere at all times

906
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,639
of belief, but during the Middle Ages that's kind of

907
00:49:49,679 --> 00:49:52,760
the But the fact that there's this open question about

908
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,800
the old ancestral spirits that is itself it's kind of

909
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,119
saying there might be a little bit of wiggle room here,

910
00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:01,679
or maybe there's a little bit of ambiguity here, But

911
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,480
I feel like this is what we're going through, you know,

912
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,480
to speak about America for a moment, right, this is

913
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,360
kind of what it feels like we're going through right now.

914
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:15,519
Is a question about those old titular territorial spirits, the

915
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:17,960
ones that have shaped and defined and given meaning to

916
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,519
what it means to be American. And the question everybody's

917
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:23,480
sort of asking now, and we cannot help but frame

918
00:50:23,519 --> 00:50:26,960
it kind of in a Christian sense, is whether or

919
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,920
not those spirits can be saved?

920
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: Right, So I want to.

921
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:34,159
Speaker 3: Say I want to say a few things.

922
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:40,519
Speaker 1: One is maybe to help people understand this because obviously

923
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,639
when we're talking in images and people can go a

924
00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:44,920
little nuts. Uh.

925
00:50:45,559 --> 00:50:49,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that the the reason why.

926
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,119
Speaker 1: For example, even in the kind of early Christian tradition

927
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,880
or the lay Jewish tradition, this this idea that the

928
00:50:58,119 --> 00:51:02,119
that the demons are this spirits of the Nephilim, right

929
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,719
of the great men before the flood.

930
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:05,599
Speaker 2: Uh.

931
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: This is exactly what you're saying, Like, it's exactly what

932
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:12,320
you're saying is that there are these principalities, these great

933
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,519
men of old that were kings and great men before

934
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,760
our world, and they still linger and they still have influence,

935
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:26,519
but they're not they're disconnected from the hierarchy right now,

936
00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:30,719
you know. And that's what happens not just in in

937
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,840
our mythologies, but it's also the way that the ancient

938
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,960
mythologies are set up, which is that once you know,

939
00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:39,800
once Zeus has become the king of the gods, then

940
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,280
the Titans are now a bunch of monstrous demons that

941
00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:46,159
that are that that are dangerous and you know, live

942
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,920
on the outskirts of the world. And so this is

943
00:51:50,159 --> 00:51:52,679
this is how this is how it functions. And and

944
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,800
of course you know it functions at all these all

945
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:56,760
these different levels.

946
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:58,039
Speaker 3: This is also how it functions.

947
00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: And you can understand that there are how can I

948
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,119
say this, like there are memories that participate in your story,

949
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:10,519
that in your family story, in everything, that are fragments

950
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:15,679
of worlds before you that you don't completely understand, but

951
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,880
that nonetheless are part of you. Of your world right,

952
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,360
ways of doing things that your mother does that if

953
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,559
you ask her why she does them, you don't know.

954
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 3: She doesn't know why she does them. Like you said,

955
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,320
this is just how we do.

956
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,039
Speaker 1: Things, Jonathan, I don't know what it is, but it's

957
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,440
connected to some ancient pattern that no longer has meaning

958
00:52:35,559 --> 00:52:38,280
but is still influencing you, right, And so we're not

959
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,320
this is not just WU, like there is a WU

960
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,440
aspect of what we're saying, but this is we're actually

961
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,199
talking about how the world kind of plays itself out.

962
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 4: And because time is accelerating so much right now, the

963
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,360
distance between you know, me and George Washington is much

964
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,559
more similar in certain ways, Like how do I put this, Like,

965
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:04,559
you know, George Washington didn't live all that long ago

966
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,360
in the scheme of world history, but basically he could

967
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,400
have lived in a different age of the world, Yeah,

968
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:13,119
for all you know, you know, and it's not to say,

969
00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:16,960
you know, that's the sort of the big debate is like,

970
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:20,480
you know, whether or not the country that he and

971
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,480
you know, the founding fathers and visioned, whether or not

972
00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:26,360
that country has any relevance in the modern world, you know,

973
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,280
where circumstances are so greatly changed.

974
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:28,519
Speaker 2: Right.

975
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,119
Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that you can see,

976
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,039
and this is important for people to understand what's happening,

977
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:37,679
is that what is that project with the seventeen whatever.

978
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 2: Sixteen sixteen, nineteen, sixteen.

979
00:53:40,519 --> 00:53:44,159
Speaker 1: Nineteen project, right, And so you have to understand what

980
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,519
it is that this project is right. The project is

981
00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:50,159
trying to place the founding in America of America before.

982
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,519
Speaker 3: This founding and say that the slave.

983
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: Ship that came to America, that is supposedly the real

984
00:53:57,599 --> 00:54:01,000
founding of America. And therefore, right what you have is

985
00:54:01,559 --> 00:54:04,760
you have someone, You have people who are trying to

986
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:10,480
realign the titular spirit of America to something which is

987
00:54:10,599 --> 00:54:14,719
disconnected to the story right now, which is a fragment

988
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,199
of the past. It's like a detail of the past

989
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,000
that isn't usually contained in the story. And they're trying

990
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,159
to say, no, this is the spirit you're under. This

991
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,840
is the God that you serve, the God that you serve,

992
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:30,840
the spirit that you serve, the one that binds you

993
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,039
is this spirit from sixteen nineteen, And therefore that's the secret,

994
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,079
real story of America. And there's a desire to it's

995
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:42,559
a desire to destroy America, is what it is. It's

996
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:46,079
a desire to destroy it by allying yourself with the

997
00:54:46,199 --> 00:54:48,679
old gods like this is a this is like a

998
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:50,599
this is like a story troupe.

999
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 2: Folks.

1000
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: What you want to do is you want to ally

1001
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,559
yourself with the old gods. You want to raise, you

1002
00:54:55,639 --> 00:54:57,400
want to you know, like in the Hell Boys story,

1003
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,280
for example, like you want to raise these these and

1004
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,239
gods that are out there in the cosmos and you

1005
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,639
want to bring them into the world in order to

1006
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,239
destroy the current story.

1007
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,199
Speaker 3: And this is what this is what the sixteen nineteen

1008
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:09,800
project is.

1009
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,159
Speaker 1: So it's just important to understand how relevant what it

1010
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,880
is you're talking about is, because it is. It is

1011
00:55:17,039 --> 00:55:20,199
not just a it's not just fun to think about this, like,

1012
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:21,719
these are strategies.

1013
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:27,079
Speaker 3: These are magical techniques that people use to transform reality.

1014
00:55:27,599 --> 00:55:29,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's exactly what it is. Like things

1015
00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:34,639
like that are spells, you know. And I don't know

1016
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,039
how much we're allowed to say about this. I guess

1017
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:42,800
if I shouldn't say this, somebody can edit it. As

1018
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,760
part of your indoctrination as good American, we took you

1019
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,719
to a private museum, oh yeah, full of full of

1020
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:57,280
early American artifacts. And you know, but the individual who

1021
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,239
started this museum, which is the largest private collect in

1022
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:01,719
the world of this stuff as far as I know,

1023
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,079
he started it because there were literally people in kind

1024
00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:10,079
of pushing for that sixteen nineteen project who were buying

1025
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:16,880
up early American artifacts, you know, papers, memorabilia, et cetera,

1026
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,280
and then just destroying them right in a kind of

1027
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:21,679
like a willful attempt.

1028
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 2: It's a kind of iconic asm. Actually, it's like a

1029
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,400
wilful attempt.

1030
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:29,639
Speaker 4: To try to destroy the relics of what this world,

1031
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:32,880
you know, of this particular world that we're living in.

1032
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:34,800
You could say the American civil religion. And I'm not

1033
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,559
saying that in a cynical way, by the way, Like

1034
00:56:36,639 --> 00:56:38,079
that's you know, just it is what it is.

1035
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: Right.

1036
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 4: So this individual who put the collection together put it

1037
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,079
together basically so that it would be you know, so

1038
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,199
that these things could be preserved and they could kind

1039
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,960
of be saved from destruction, and so among other things,

1040
00:56:53,039 --> 00:56:55,519
you know, we got to hold. Like I still haven't

1041
00:56:55,519 --> 00:56:57,360
shared the picture because I don't want to trigger all

1042
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,920
the Masons out there, you know, But like George Washington

1043
00:57:00,119 --> 00:57:04,800
surveying compass and the shirt collar that Abraham Lincoln was

1044
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,679
wearing when he was assassinated still.

1045
00:57:06,519 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 2: Got his blood on it.

1046
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 4: Jonathan touched Lincoln's blood, so he is he is more

1047
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,079
American than most of you guys now, you know. And

1048
00:57:15,159 --> 00:57:18,119
a bunch of other crazy things obviously including Hitler's keys.

1049
00:57:18,559 --> 00:57:21,079
But true story.

1050
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:25,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so yeah, I.

1051
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,519
Speaker 4: Think, I think that these different stories that we're currently

1052
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:31,639
trying to tell. So I wasn't recently sort of thinking

1053
00:57:31,679 --> 00:57:34,079
about talking about America, but then it's like it's the

1054
00:57:34,159 --> 00:57:35,679
fourth and like all the stuff I woke up this

1055
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,320
morning and just all this stuff was like jumbled in

1056
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,760
my head. But but there are some really kind of

1057
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,719
potent spells that people are trying to cast right now,

1058
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,119
you know, on the right and on the left, and

1059
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,119
it's all about trying to either.

1060
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,119
Speaker 2: You know, suppress or or destroy these.

1061
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,679
Speaker 4: Or or you know, bring back into being right to

1062
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:03,519
body again, these different sort of territorial spirits that are

1063
00:58:03,559 --> 00:58:07,840
all kind of carving up pieces of the American story.

1064
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,039
Speaker 1: And one of the things, so one of the things

1065
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:12,159
this is important if you want people want to understand

1066
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,639
we're now we're definitely talking magic in ways.

1067
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,199
Speaker 3: That I usually don't talk about.

1068
00:58:17,239 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: But anyways, so one of the things I understand is that, Okay,

1069
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,159
so a story has dark parts in it.

1070
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 2: A story.

1071
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,199
Speaker 1: Characters have sins, character have weaknesses. And one of the

1072
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,440
things that we try to do, especially when we try

1073
00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:35,159
to establish a world, is we tend to want to

1074
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,000
hide right the sins of the father.

1075
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:41,239
Speaker 3: And that's Okay to do it to some extent, right,

1076
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,119
that's what that's what Noah's sons do when they cover

1077
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:45,280
his naked eyes, right.

1078
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: So it's not like that's wrong in itself, but it

1079
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,920
does have certain side effects. And those side effects are

1080
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,079
that those sins they're still kind of hidden there.

1081
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,559
Speaker 3: And what someone can do is they can go into that.

1082
00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: And that's what the sixteen to nineteen project is, right,

1083
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,719
is to say George Washington had slaves. So now let's

1084
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,639
and we try to kind of not talk about that.

1085
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,880
We try to kind of make it something that we

1086
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,400
don't want to be too much part of the story.

1087
00:59:14,599 --> 00:59:15,960
So then what we do is we go into that

1088
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:18,840
and we take that side effect and we say, you

1089
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,280
know what, that's the secret actually, that's the secret reason.

1090
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,440
And you lift it up and then you say, this

1091
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:28,000
is the true cause, this is the true reality. And

1092
00:59:28,119 --> 00:59:31,000
so the way that we have to do that, the

1093
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:32,679
way that we have to deal with that, is we

1094
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,639
have to integrate it properly. We have to be able

1095
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,280
to say, yes, this is the sin of our founder,

1096
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:45,880
and we don't hide it, don't. We still revere the founder,

1097
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,039
but we don't hide the sin. We don't pretend like

1098
00:59:49,159 --> 00:59:51,960
it doesn't exist. There's a way to kind of integrate,

1099
00:59:52,039 --> 00:59:54,760
you could say, And we could say, like we're learning

1100
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,320
from the sins of our father, We're not going to

1101
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,840
repeat the sins. We're going to follow the good their example,

1102
01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:03,360
but not repeat their sins. But if we don't do that,

1103
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,320
you know, then what's going to happen is we give

1104
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,159
power to the enemy, Like you're giving power to the

1105
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:14,800
enemy of your story, because that secret will just constantly

1106
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,639
be trying to someone's going to use it to try

1107
01:00:17,719 --> 01:00:20,960
to make and to try to make you think that

1108
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,800
this is the truth thing that is founding the story.

1109
01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:26,559
Speaker 2: So this is this is.

1110
01:00:26,599 --> 01:00:28,159
Speaker 1: Related to a lot of the stuff that I've been

1111
01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:30,519
talking about, of course, in terms of in terms of

1112
01:00:30,599 --> 01:00:32,760
like World War two and all of these things, like

1113
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,880
we kind of I think that if unless we kind

1114
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,719
of reintegrate things properly, then we're we're going to be

1115
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:38,639
in trouble.

1116
01:00:38,679 --> 01:00:39,199
Speaker 2: That's for sure.

1117
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 4: All Right, So I'm going to tell you three quick

1118
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,960
little stories about fairies to round this right on without okay,

1119
01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:48,440
And I hope, I hope the connection will be kind

1120
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,280
of evident to people kind of see the way we're

1121
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,119
talking about all these different things. But mostly I also

1122
01:00:55,239 --> 01:00:57,159
just want to read these stories because I've been promising

1123
01:00:57,239 --> 01:00:58,760
that kind of teasing this for a long time, this

1124
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,800
question of whether or not the fairy can be saved?

1125
01:01:01,119 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: Yes, because which is which is related.

1126
01:01:03,639 --> 01:01:05,599
Speaker 4: Again to all the things that we've just been talking about,

1127
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:08,840
like can these old territorial spirits, can these old titular spirits?

1128
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Can the old heroes? You know? What's the is there

1129
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,159
a salvation for them? And that sort of the new order?

1130
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 4: So I'm just gonna pick three, and there is not

1131
01:01:22,079 --> 01:01:29,079
going to be enough information here to draw a firm conclusion. Okay,

1132
01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:35,760
So the first is about a neck. Neck, which is

1133
01:01:36,119 --> 01:01:42,960
a Swedish It's like a water spirit. It is very

1134
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,960
often takes the form of a horse. It's related to,

1135
01:01:47,239 --> 01:01:50,679
you know, equine water spirits in a lot of other cultures.

1136
01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:55,639
Very often it also takes the the the form of

1137
01:01:55,719 --> 01:01:58,920
like a beautiful young person. It's a kind of fairy,

1138
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,679
you could say, it's a kind of but it's particularly

1139
01:02:02,679 --> 01:02:09,400
associated with water and it is extremely extremely dangerous because

1140
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,559
the the danger is that it will lure you into

1141
01:02:11,639 --> 01:02:13,039
the water and then you'll drown.

1142
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 2: Right.

1143
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 4: The thing that the thing that the neck can teach

1144
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,760
you is music, and so he's got like sort of

1145
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,519
these amazing harping skills and uh.

1146
01:02:30,039 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: If you if you uh there there's all all kinds

1147
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,360
of uh, there's all kinds of stories about, you know,

1148
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:40,920
people who.

1149
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,719
Speaker 4: Wanted to learn harping skills, so they would bring like

1150
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,440
an offering, usually of like a black lamb. Again not

1151
01:02:45,559 --> 01:02:49,559
suggesting you should do this, folks, but also if you

1152
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:51,880
want to get the next favor, then you should express

1153
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,599
hope for his salvation. And if you want to if

1154
01:02:55,599 --> 01:02:58,679
you want to like sort of like uh get rid

1155
01:02:58,719 --> 01:03:01,639
of him, then you tell him that he's going to

1156
01:03:01,679 --> 01:03:02,480
be damned.

1157
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,679
Speaker 2: So nice. Right, So there's a story.

1158
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,519
Speaker 4: There's a couple of different versions of this story, but

1159
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,599
it goes usually go something like this.

1160
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: There's in uh uh.

1161
01:03:22,679 --> 01:03:26,559
Speaker 4: Uh, there's there's a a neck who's uh there's a

1162
01:03:26,639 --> 01:03:28,960
kind of neck who takes up his boat underneath a bridge,

1163
01:03:29,519 --> 01:03:31,480
you know, like a like a like a troll under

1164
01:03:31,519 --> 01:03:34,440
a bridge kind of a kind of a situation. They're

1165
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,719
usually called strong Carl. And and so he's there and

1166
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,039
he's playing on his harp and he's singing and uh

1167
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,000
and uh. Once he's heard by the peasants singing I

1168
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:51,519
know and I know, and I know that my redeemer lives.

1169
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:54,639
And so these two boys come along and they say,

1170
01:03:55,639 --> 01:03:57,000
what's the point of what you're doing here?

1171
01:03:57,079 --> 01:03:57,679
Speaker 2: What good is this?

1172
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,159
Speaker 4: You're never going to enjoy eternal happiness? And the neck

1173
01:04:01,239 --> 01:04:06,440
begins to weep bitterly. And then a priest comes along,

1174
01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:10,079
and the priest sees the neck there weeping under the bridge,

1175
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,599
and he basically says, hey, what's going on? And the

1176
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,719
neck asked the question, do you know if there will

1177
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,320
be any redemption for me and for many people? And

1178
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:26,880
the priest says, he's got a cane in his hand,

1179
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,639
and he says, sooner shall this dried cane that I

1180
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:33,559
hold in my hand grow green and flour, then thou

1181
01:04:33,639 --> 01:04:38,320
shalt obtain salvation. And so the Neck throws down his

1182
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,440
harp and he sits by the water, weeping bitterly. And

1183
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:42,360
the priest gets on his horse and he continues on

1184
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,880
his way, and as he's writing, he looks down and

1185
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,039
he notices his cane has started to put out green

1186
01:04:47,119 --> 01:04:54,199
shoots and leaves and flowers and fruits, and so he

1187
01:04:54,280 --> 01:05:00,760
goes back to the neck and he says, behold, now

1188
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:01,880
my old staff has.

1189
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,719
Speaker 2: Grown green and floury, like a young branch in a

1190
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:04,360
rose garden.

1191
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 4: So likewise, may hope bloom in the hearts of all

1192
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,119
created beings for their redeemer liveth. And the neck is

1193
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,280
very happy about this news, and he takes up his

1194
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:14,840
heart and he starts playing again.

1195
01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:16,239
Speaker 2: Now this is.

1196
01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:20,079
Speaker 4: Associated in a little bit of a way to a

1197
01:05:20,199 --> 01:05:23,719
bit of a bit of Roland family lore, Okay, which

1198
01:05:23,719 --> 01:05:24,199
I'm now.

1199
01:05:24,159 --> 01:05:25,599
Speaker 2: Going to tell you about. I don't know if I've

1200
01:05:25,639 --> 01:05:26,519
ever told you this story.

1201
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:31,679
Speaker 4: So on my wife's in my wife's family, so this

1202
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,960
is actually like shaub Kirschgessner family law. My wife's family

1203
01:05:35,039 --> 01:05:39,559
from Germany. In my wife's family, there is one of

1204
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:43,159
her ancestors who was accused of witchcraft and burned at

1205
01:05:43,239 --> 01:05:48,559
the steak cool And she said, as she was being

1206
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:53,519
taken to be burnt, she said, if I'm innocent, after

1207
01:05:53,639 --> 01:05:58,000
my death, this fence post is going to bloom and

1208
01:05:58,119 --> 01:05:58,760
put out fruit.

1209
01:06:00,159 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: And they take her and they burn her, and they.

1210
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:08,679
Speaker 4: The story is as they come walking back after the execution,

1211
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:12,920
there's the fence post that's blooming and putting out fruit.

1212
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: And of course, you know and for some of my.

1213
01:06:18,639 --> 01:06:20,679
Speaker 4: Some of my family, they were like, oh, well, maybe

1214
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,440
she really was a witch, you know, kind of a thing,

1215
01:06:22,559 --> 01:06:24,800
but in any case, she was able to make this

1216
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,039
the other reasons reasons.

1217
01:06:29,199 --> 01:06:30,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.

1218
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,599
Speaker 1: So, by the way, this story that you've said, and

1219
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,679
the relationship between the neck is there and the story

1220
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:37,440
of Saint Christopher.

1221
01:06:37,719 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 3: So one of the versions of the story of Saint

1222
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,800
Christopher is that when he.

1223
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: Crosses the water, he plants his staff, and then the

1224
01:06:45,079 --> 01:06:50,360
staff grows, and the regrowing of the dead staff is

1225
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:55,559
the symbolism itself of the fairy being saved, because it

1226
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,960
is something that has been cut off from the tree,

1227
01:06:59,119 --> 01:07:00,360
is a disconnected branch.

1228
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,639
Speaker 3: It doesn't participate in the structure anymore.

1229
01:07:03,039 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: But then there's a miracle by which that now branch

1230
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:11,159
can reconnect. You could say to the tree in a

1231
01:07:11,239 --> 01:07:15,159
way that that is mysterious after crossing the waters, after

1232
01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:17,639
you know, after the transition.

1233
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:19,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's very good.

1234
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:27,119
Speaker 4: So here's here's another one that's a little less cheery.

1235
01:07:29,159 --> 01:07:32,599
This one comes from Scotland, and the story goes that

1236
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,880
once upon a time there was a pious clergyman on

1237
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,000
his way home after having administered the last rites to

1238
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:43,599
a dying member of his flock.

1239
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:44,679
Speaker 2: It's late at night.

1240
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,039
Speaker 4: He has to pass through a good deal of what

1241
01:07:47,159 --> 01:07:52,920
the Scots would call uncanny ground, you know. And but

1242
01:07:53,639 --> 01:07:56,320
he's a clergyman, he's a conscientious minister of the gospel.

1243
01:07:56,639 --> 01:07:58,480
He's not afraid of all the spirits in the country.

1244
01:07:59,039 --> 01:08:02,440
So he reaches the end of a which stretched alongside

1245
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:07,360
the road for some distance, and he hears these beautiful,

1246
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,400
melodious strains of music. If you ever find yourself just

1247
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,159
walking along in the dark and you come to a

1248
01:08:12,199 --> 01:08:14,920
body of water and there's beautiful music, you.

1249
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:16,399
Speaker 2: Should be cautious.

1250
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 4: And so he sits down to listen a little bit

1251
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,039
to the music and trying to figure out what its sources.

1252
01:08:22,239 --> 01:08:24,399
And he'd not been sitting for very long at all

1253
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,439
when you can see a light now gliding across the

1254
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:32,439
lake towards him, and instead of taking to his heels,

1255
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:35,119
he decides he's going to just sit there and see

1256
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:35,560
what's going on.

1257
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 2: He's a priest. What does he have to be afraid of?

1258
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 4: And so the light draws near, and eventually he sees

1259
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:47,000
what appears to be an individual, let's say, resembling a

1260
01:08:47,079 --> 01:08:50,199
human being, walking across the water towards him, surrounded by

1261
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:55,880
several much smaller like little people, like diminutive musicians, some

1262
01:08:56,039 --> 01:08:58,920
of them with lights, some of them with instruments, and

1263
01:09:00,119 --> 01:09:02,119
this is obviously the source of the beautiful music that

1264
01:09:02,199 --> 01:09:02,760
he's been hearing.

1265
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 2: And eventually.

1266
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:11,399
Speaker 4: The taller individual lands on the shore next to him,

1267
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:15,439
walks up to him, makes a bow and he says,

1268
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:20,920
I'm sorry for bothering you, father, and the priest says, oh,

1269
01:09:21,079 --> 01:09:22,960
no problem, and all have a seat, so they sit

1270
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:28,119
down together, and eventually the priest says, all right, so

1271
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,079
you know, he says, who art thou stranger and from

1272
01:09:31,119 --> 01:09:35,720
Wentz And at this point, with a sort of downcast

1273
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,920
eyes obviously it's a fairy, he explains that he is

1274
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,600
one of those sometimes called the dan shi these are men,

1275
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:44,760
which means the men of peace, or the good men,

1276
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:48,920
the good people, which again, as as I mentioned, is

1277
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:53,000
very much a euphemism. And he explains that he is

1278
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:56,680
one of those angels who were cast out of heaven,

1279
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,800
but as they say in Scotland, landed on their feet,

1280
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:00,960
that is, they were not cast all the way down

1281
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:06,079
to hell, and that he was now doomed, along with

1282
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:08,560
millions of his fellow sufferers, to wander through the seas

1283
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,760
and the mountains until the coming of the great Day

1284
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:11,359
of judgment.

1285
01:10:12,399 --> 01:10:16,399
Speaker 2: What their fate would be, they don't know, and he says,

1286
01:10:17,319 --> 01:10:17,920
and that is.

1287
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,079
Speaker 4: Why I've come to us to learn your opinion, as

1288
01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:23,920
an eminent divine as to our final condition on that

1289
01:10:24,039 --> 01:10:29,319
dreadful day. And so here the priest enters into a

1290
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:32,880
long catechetical conversation with a fairy, which we will pass over,

1291
01:10:35,039 --> 01:10:38,319
touching on the various principles of faith and repentance, and

1292
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,720
having received several unsatisfactory answers to his questions, he finally says,

1293
01:10:43,399 --> 01:10:48,600
all right, let's try this repeat after me, and he

1294
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:57,159
begins the pattern noster, and the fairy says, our father,

1295
01:10:58,039 --> 01:11:01,119
But when it comes to their word art, he's not

1296
01:11:01,359 --> 01:11:03,720
able to say it, no matter how many times he tries.

1297
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:12,199
He says, our father, who worked in heaven as in

1298
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:17,319
you know the devil. Yeah, okay, all right, and uh.

1299
01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:25,560
Eventually the priest says, well listen, if you can't even

1300
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:30,079
call godfather, and the fairy throws himself into the lake.

1301
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:39,600
Now for the really weird one, and this one I've

1302
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:40,840
actually found several.

1303
01:11:41,079 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to just say one thing about this, please

1304
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:44,079
please about this one.

1305
01:11:44,119 --> 01:11:45,279
Speaker 2: So these this.

1306
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: So you know these stories, people, you know the stories. Right,

1307
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,000
this is the story of the gingerbread Man, right, this

1308
01:11:53,199 --> 01:11:54,680
is what this is what you're dealing with.

1309
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:57,640
Speaker 4: This is now I don't know that at all, Jonathan,

1310
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,600
Please explain that you don't know the story the gingerbread

1311
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:01,560
I do know the story.

1312
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:03,319
Speaker 2: Of the gingerbread Man. I just don't see how this

1313
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:04,039
one connects.

1314
01:12:04,079 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it connects in the sense that you have

1315
01:12:07,359 --> 01:12:11,319
these you have these ambiguous beings that come across the water,

1316
01:12:12,039 --> 01:12:14,319
and the question of whether or not they're going to

1317
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:18,039
make it into the next world is not it's not

1318
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:23,520
a it's not a you know, there are some things

1319
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,359
that don't fit, like they just won't there's something that

1320
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,000
won't get can't be integrated.

1321
01:12:28,279 --> 01:12:30,039
Speaker 3: And that's just that's just part of.

1322
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:32,199
Speaker 1: I mean, if you take it at the outside, at

1323
01:12:32,199 --> 01:12:34,000
a fractal level, if you take it at a lower level,

1324
01:12:34,039 --> 01:12:37,399
you realize that there's some things that just can't be integrated.

1325
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:42,680
There are some So think about like, okay, so think

1326
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,439
about let's say America as a land where people come,

1327
01:12:47,079 --> 01:12:51,399
and you think, so people come with their traditions, their behaviors,

1328
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:54,000
their their own laws, their own kind of local things.

1329
01:12:54,119 --> 01:13:00,399
And those things slowly get integrated, but some of them can't. Right,

1330
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:04,279
And so if you come from a society that practices

1331
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:10,239
child marriage, that practice will not be integrated into America.

1332
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 3: It's not gonna it's not going to come in.

1333
01:13:13,159 --> 01:13:17,199
Speaker 1: Like if you practice, you know, female genital mutilation, like

1334
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:21,960
that practice will not be acceptable and will not be

1335
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:25,680
integratable into America. So you have these ambiguous things that

1336
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,439
come from the strange lands. They cross the waters, they

1337
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,239
come here, and then then there's the like then there's

1338
01:13:31,279 --> 01:13:34,439
a big question how much of this can be integrated

1339
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,880
and how much of it can And then it plays

1340
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,880
itself out and some of the things are integrated and

1341
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,840
some of some of those things aren't. So this image

1342
01:13:44,039 --> 01:13:47,760
of the alien beings that come across the waters and

1343
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:52,359
that basically act like can I be Okay, think about

1344
01:13:52,359 --> 01:13:54,439
it this way. So someone comes to America and says,

1345
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,319
I want to be integrated. And then the guy says, okay,

1346
01:13:57,359 --> 01:13:58,840
you want to be an American. It's like, yeah, I

1347
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:00,159
want to know if I can be an America. And

1348
01:14:00,199 --> 01:14:03,880
they say, well, all right, say the pledge of allegiance,

1349
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:07,239
right yeah, And then they're like, well, uh no, I

1350
01:14:07,319 --> 01:14:09,079
can't say the pledge of allegiance.

1351
01:14:09,119 --> 01:14:11,359
Speaker 3: I'm not going to pledge allegiance to your flag and

1352
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:11,800
to God.

1353
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,600
Speaker 1: Well, it's like if you can't pledge allegiance, then you're

1354
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:16,279
not going to be part of America.

1355
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 3: Like you just can't.

1356
01:14:18,399 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 1: There's no room for you in the identity because you

1357
01:14:21,079 --> 01:14:23,880
actually don't want there's something about.

1358
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,399
Speaker 3: You that is not able to participate.

1359
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,399
Speaker 1: And so like it's just to help people understand the

1360
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,800
structure of these stories, Like it's always easier to when

1361
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,159
you apply them at lower level than when you I mean,

1362
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:34,439
it's going to be saved.

1363
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:35,560
Speaker 3: It's like that's a harder one.

1364
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,199
Speaker 4: That's a bit it's a question that's so yeah, it's

1365
01:14:38,239 --> 01:14:41,279
hard to I mean if I mean, it's it's not

1366
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:45,600
at all unrelated to the question of like, uh, when

1367
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,319
a non Orthodox person visits are my church?

1368
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 2: Right?

1369
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,119
Speaker 4: You know, before communion, we always make an announcement the

1370
01:14:52,199 --> 01:14:54,199
Holy Euchrist, being the very body and blood of Christ,

1371
01:14:54,319 --> 01:14:57,560
is reserved only for those Orthodox Christians who prepare themselves

1372
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,399
with prayer, fasting, and a recent confession, right, And so

1373
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:03,560
what we're saying is we're drawing kind of a boundary

1374
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,279
around the chalice and saying this is for people who

1375
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,439
confess the same faith that we confess, but also we

1376
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,760
have like properly prepared themselves. You're not supposed to just

1377
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,479
come up and just like willy nilly take communion, even

1378
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:16,760
as an orthodox Christian if you haven't you know, fasted

1379
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,039
and prepared and things like this. And so this is

1380
01:15:20,079 --> 01:15:23,239
one of the things that that that visitors sometimes struggle with.

1381
01:15:23,359 --> 01:15:25,680
And it's it's always kind of odd to me in

1382
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,159
the sense that I mean, like I get it, but

1383
01:15:27,279 --> 01:15:32,119
also like these are people who don't believe it's the

1384
01:15:32,159 --> 01:15:33,960
body and blood of Christ. Very often, you know, these

1385
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:37,119
are like you know, Protestant visitors. They don't believe that

1386
01:15:37,159 --> 01:15:39,039
it's the body and blood of Christ. They don't you know,

1387
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,079
they don't believe our our churches is the true church,

1388
01:15:43,159 --> 01:15:45,319
let alone a true church, right, you know, and so

1389
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,079
but there, but they're they feel kind of offended that

1390
01:15:49,159 --> 01:15:51,399
they're being excluded. And I always you know, kind of

1391
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:55,119
tell people, I'm like, listen, we'd be very happy to

1392
01:15:55,239 --> 01:15:57,680
give you communion. There's just a couple of things we

1393
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,800
need to do first, right, you know, And it's sort

1394
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,840
of like can you integrate, can you you know, accept

1395
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:04,920
the authority of the church. Can you put yourself under

1396
01:16:05,279 --> 01:16:07,319
the authority of an orthodox bishop? Can you say the

1397
01:16:07,359 --> 01:16:08,760
creed the way that we say it and mean what

1398
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:10,359
we mean when we when we say it.

1399
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 2: And so on?

1400
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,039
Speaker 4: Right, that that's sort of just that question of you know,

1401
01:16:15,159 --> 01:16:18,680
you know, they're I don't know, I'm rambling a little bit,

1402
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:19,239
but no, no.

1403
01:16:19,279 --> 01:16:19,399
Speaker 5: No, no.

1404
01:16:21,279 --> 01:16:25,239
Speaker 1: That trying to give examples to why the question of

1405
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:28,680
whether the fairies can be saved is an ambiguous one.

1406
01:16:29,079 --> 01:16:32,399
It's one that cannot be answered in a definite in

1407
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,479
a definite way. It can be only answered in a

1408
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,960
manner that seems to move back and forth. Because that's

1409
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:43,359
what crossing the waters is, right, And so the the

1410
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,199
what what makes it through the waters?

1411
01:16:47,279 --> 01:16:47,399
Speaker 2: Right?

1412
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,720
Speaker 1: The Egyptians don't make it through the waters, folks, the

1413
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:53,720
Egyptians they stay in the Red Sea, and the Israelites

1414
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:56,560
make it through the waters. And that's what happens at

1415
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,520
that crossing. And so the question of the of the

1416
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,760
fairies crossing over the water, you know, it's like that's

1417
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,760
the question that's being asked, like what makes it through?

1418
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,359
And the thing is that, So now let's talk about

1419
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:12,199
the problem of what kind of makes it through? So

1420
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:16,479
the fairies that cross over the waters and ask if

1421
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:20,239
they can be integrated, or that that's playing music under

1422
01:17:20,319 --> 01:17:24,399
the bridge. They are the image of the residues or

1423
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:28,720
of the remaining influences of old worlds that, although haven't

1424
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:33,199
been completely integrated, are still lingering. They're still hanging out

1425
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,399
like there, They're still they still have influence on us.

1426
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,720
And sometimes you could say that some of these these

1427
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,039
these influences, the question of whether or not they can

1428
01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:46,399
be fully integrated is still up in the air, because

1429
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:51,039
they feel like strange influences, are unknown, unknown patterns that

1430
01:17:51,159 --> 01:17:54,960
we participate in that we don't completely understand the reason for,

1431
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:58,359
but are still kind of there despite ourselves, you know,

1432
01:17:59,039 --> 01:17:59,399
all right.

1433
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 4: So related to the neck, by the way, you'll notice

1434
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,279
all three of these have to do with kind of

1435
01:18:04,399 --> 01:18:08,439
water spirits, which most fairies seem to be of that type.

1436
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:11,880
If you just sort of like read read through all

1437
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:14,560
the books, many of which are not in English. Uh,

1438
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:18,279
you read through all the books, A lot of the

1439
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:19,920
a lot of the things that we call fairies are

1440
01:18:20,119 --> 01:18:23,239
some kind of a water spirit. Actually, So related to

1441
01:18:23,279 --> 01:18:27,439
the neck, there is the when German is called the

1442
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:34,319
nixy in in Breton folklore. So this would be you know,

1443
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:39,079
little little Britain, Brittany in on the Celtic coast of France.

1444
01:18:40,119 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 2: There's a uh there, this is called the Corrigan, but

1445
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:45,840
it's the same kind of idea.

1446
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:49,520
Speaker 4: It's a it's a feminine water spirit, usually very beautiful,

1447
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:55,840
who loves who basically like loves or seduces you know,

1448
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,119
men and wants to sort of bring them down into

1449
01:18:58,159 --> 01:18:58,600
the waters.

1450
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 2: And there's a.

1451
01:19:04,079 --> 01:19:08,279
Speaker 4: Actually in in Britain folklore and in German folklore, uh,

1452
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:13,560
the the corgan Corgan or the Nixy's mortal enemy is

1453
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:18,880
the Virgin Mary. And and so because Saturdays are dedicated

1454
01:19:19,039 --> 01:19:21,760
to the Virgin Mary, at least traditionally in Europe and

1455
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:26,119
still are actually in the Orthodox Church. Since Saturdays are

1456
01:19:26,199 --> 01:19:29,800
dedicated to the Virgin Mary, Saturdays are always the days

1457
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:31,920
that you have to be extra careful because of the

1458
01:19:32,039 --> 01:19:34,439
days that the Nixie or the corgan is most likely kind.

1459
01:19:34,279 --> 01:19:37,279
Speaker 2: Of act up. So and they're there.

1460
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:41,039
Speaker 4: They're the mortal enemies of the Virgin Mary, essentially, because

1461
01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:43,239
the Virgin Mary is the one who who guards the

1462
01:19:43,319 --> 01:19:45,479
purity of of young people.

1463
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 2: Right.

1464
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:51,079
Speaker 4: So there's there's this nixie. Uh, this is out near

1465
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:58,520
Einbeck near guben In in Germany. There's a spring there

1466
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:02,840
called the Usta spring probably has you know oasters, probably

1467
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:06,399
related to like East Easter, et cetera. Right, but the

1468
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:09,560
ulster A spring, which is a spring really prized for

1469
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:13,359
its healing powers. And there was a nixy that lives

1470
01:20:13,399 --> 01:20:19,000
in the springs and one day she sees and falls

1471
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,960
in love with a young man from the local village

1472
01:20:21,039 --> 01:20:25,199
by the name of Heinrich, and she has a lot

1473
01:20:25,239 --> 01:20:27,079
of sort of secret meetings with him. She's trying to

1474
01:20:27,119 --> 01:20:31,039
seduce him, but ultimately his piety, his fear of God

1475
01:20:31,119 --> 01:20:33,119
are stronger than his love for her. So he dedicates

1476
01:20:33,199 --> 01:20:37,399
himself to the Virgin Mary and resists all of her temptations.

1477
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:43,960
And she is tormented and also really really angry, and

1478
01:20:44,079 --> 01:20:48,359
she says, so she comes up with this idea, which

1479
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:52,079
is that she's going to infiltrate the service of the

1480
01:20:52,159 --> 01:20:55,399
Virgin Mary so that she can learn the Virgin Mary's power.

1481
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:00,600
So she takes the form of a beautiful woman, goes

1482
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:05,880
to the nearest convent, becomes a nun, and becomes a

1483
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:09,720
nun that's crazy and as a I mean, this is

1484
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:12,319
the story which is I found in three different books.

1485
01:21:12,319 --> 01:21:14,479
It's a pretty well known story, or at least was

1486
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:18,039
back in the day. So the story is that as

1487
01:21:18,079 --> 01:21:20,479
a lay sister, she performs all the hardest and most

1488
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:24,520
menial services to the monastery. She's silent, she's unrecognized, and

1489
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:28,359
that in the course of this humility, this is what

1490
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:30,920
the story says. It says that Christ entered her soul

1491
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:34,680
and filled her with the blessings of the Gospel, and

1492
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,319
her hatred for her rival, the Virgin Mary is turned

1493
01:21:38,399 --> 01:21:45,560
into love and eventually her humility and piety become recognized,

1494
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,920
and so eventually she becomes a nun takes the name Paula.

1495
01:21:49,079 --> 01:21:51,119
This is how specific this story is. By the way,

1496
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,800
Then she becomes a sub prioress, and then a prioris,

1497
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,279
and eventually she becomes the abbess of the convent.

1498
01:21:59,000 --> 01:21:59,239
Speaker 2: Wow.

1499
01:21:59,279 --> 01:22:03,399
Speaker 4: And because of her sort of healing powers, you know,

1500
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:10,840
and then also her love for God, she becomes she

1501
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:15,479
begins to have this reputation for holiness. Now, there's two

1502
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:17,279
things that I should mention at this point. One is

1503
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:19,880
it seems to be it's actually not explicit in the

1504
01:22:20,079 --> 01:22:24,720
story that I found until the very end, but it

1505
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,359
seems to be that someone maybe is the Virgin Mary

1506
01:22:29,079 --> 01:22:33,279
had basically told her, if you can endure in my

1507
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:38,720
service for seven years, then you can become a human

1508
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:39,920
or like your soul can be.

1509
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,520
Speaker 2: Saved, real girl. Yeah, you can become a real girl. Right.

1510
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 4: The other thing is that although nixies can take the

1511
01:22:50,319 --> 01:22:55,359
forms of human women, there's always one tell and this

1512
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:58,720
will be helpful information out there. For you know, young

1513
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:01,680
men and women wandering through through the forest of Germany,

1514
01:23:05,159 --> 01:23:07,960
they are water spirits, and so they always the hem

1515
01:23:08,119 --> 01:23:09,640
of their robe is always damp.

1516
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:14,319
Speaker 2: Right, this is the one thing that they cannot hide.

1517
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,600
It's like the fringe of their robe is always damp. Yeah.

1518
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:23,199
Speaker 4: So, no matter how carefully she tries to hide the

1519
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:26,880
damp hem of her veil, it does not escape the

1520
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,960
eyes of one of the younger nuns there, who figures

1521
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,439
out her secret. And sooner or later her secret becomes

1522
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:39,199
known to the whole convent. And at that point says

1523
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:42,439
that the whole that the nuns all. It says that

1524
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:46,039
the hearts of the nuns became alienated to her what

1525
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:53,520
cold greetings, lurking looks, secret whispers, And eventually the confessor,

1526
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,279
the father confessor of the convent, learns the secret, and

1527
01:23:57,359 --> 01:23:59,720
so in his zeal for the salvation of the church,

1528
01:24:00,199 --> 01:24:04,760
he questions her in the confessional, and she stands up,

1529
01:24:05,039 --> 01:24:10,479
wrings her hands, lamenting, confesses that she's the nixy of

1530
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:11,520
the ulstera Spring.

1531
01:24:13,319 --> 01:24:15,600
Speaker 2: And now she has to go back to her damp dwelling.

1532
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,399
And this is six years in. This is six years in.

1533
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:24,279
So what one more year her seven.

1534
01:24:24,159 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 4: Years of trial would have been over, her soul would

1535
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,680
have been saved close to her goals. She's now farther

1536
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:32,159
than ever from it. And it says in the story,

1537
01:24:32,239 --> 01:24:36,079
because of the hasty zeal of the nuns, so she

1538
01:24:36,239 --> 01:24:38,399
leaves the convent, She leaves all the sacred objects, she

1539
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,399
leaves all its inhabitants. And at this point the nuns

1540
01:24:41,399 --> 01:24:43,520
are full of regret and they begin to weep because

1541
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:47,000
they all really did love her. And she goes back

1542
01:24:47,199 --> 01:24:51,680
silently to her cold former dwelling. And since then, so

1543
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:54,960
it is said, she's often been seen walking through the

1544
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,840
cloisters of the convent late at night in her nuns habit,

1545
01:24:58,319 --> 01:25:02,199
particularly on the e of the fifteenth of August, the

1546
01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:04,479
remission or the assumption of the Virgin Mary.

1547
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:09,159
Speaker 2: And the story concludes she has never done harm to anyone.

1548
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:18,359
Speaker 3: So, man, there has some deep, deep ambiguity there.

1549
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:25,560
Speaker 2: These are the stories. When is this When is this

1550
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:26,199
story from?

1551
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:33,159
Speaker 4: You know, so it's from I mean it's from medieval Germany. Yeah,

1552
01:25:33,319 --> 01:25:35,600
you know, it would be hard to it's copied. I

1553
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:37,600
found it three or four different places. I think it

1554
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:42,079
would be hard to nail down the particular year. Maybe

1555
01:25:42,119 --> 01:25:44,439
somebody else out there will, we'll find it and will know.

1556
01:25:46,239 --> 01:25:49,680
The book that I read this in is a German

1557
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:53,760
book published in eighteen sixty two that's just like kind

1558
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:55,680
of a collection of different fairy stories.

1559
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 2: It's all in German, you know, but.

1560
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 4: But there's there's a you know, there's I've that's that's

1561
01:26:03,039 --> 01:26:04,800
the account that I gave you comes from that, But

1562
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,600
I've I've come across this account in similar books other places.

1563
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:08,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, well.

1564
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,640
Speaker 3: So then make it six six years.

1565
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:16,359
Speaker 2: It's just one shy, just one shy. Yeah.

1566
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:21,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's I mean, there's there's some interesting I mean,

1567
01:26:21,199 --> 01:26:22,680
there's a lot of interesting things in there. You know,

1568
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:26,680
the hem always being ever vail, still being damp. I

1569
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,359
think that, you know that the point is basically made

1570
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:33,119
that that this is someone who could have been integrated.

1571
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:38,600
Speaker 2: Just didn't make it, but people were a little over zealous. Yeah,

1572
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,439
you know too. Yeah, that's I mean, that's quite interesting

1573
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:41,640
to me.

1574
01:26:42,079 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah right, it's always that.

1575
01:26:44,159 --> 01:26:48,359
Speaker 1: It's like because of their excess of zeal, they've actually

1576
01:26:49,039 --> 01:26:51,680
pushed away a good thing and they they all even

1577
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:53,880
for themselves, like they basically lost a good day.

1578
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:59,359
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, man, all right, So there we go, Bronze

1579
01:26:59,399 --> 01:27:04,479
Age to Thomas Jefferson to the Convent Nixy.

1580
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:09,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

1581
01:27:09,199 --> 01:27:10,159
Speaker 3: By the way, like the.

1582
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:17,680
Speaker 1: One of the in America, one of the recent obsession

1583
01:27:18,079 --> 01:27:23,800
with also native kind of Aboriginal legends and stories and

1584
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:27,159
a and a desire to in some ways give back

1585
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:33,199
the land to those spirits you could say, you know,

1586
01:27:33,319 --> 01:27:36,800
in different ways, is also part of the same kind

1587
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:40,920
of sixteen nineteen trope, which is in some ways to

1588
01:27:41,239 --> 01:27:46,960
recognize the allegiances and principalities that were there before the

1589
01:27:47,119 --> 01:27:50,600
founding of our story and then ally ourselves with those

1590
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,960
with those spirits and try to destroy our world by

1591
01:27:56,199 --> 01:27:59,239
using the old gods, by using the old the old spirits.

1592
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:01,279
Speaker 2: It was really interesting.

1593
01:28:01,359 --> 01:28:04,720
Speaker 4: I was in Alaska a couple of weeks ago for

1594
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,399
the glorification of Saint Olga of Alaska, which is the

1595
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:12,199
newest American saint. She's glorified by the Orthodox Church in America,

1596
01:28:12,319 --> 01:28:16,640
our church, and she's i mean just a really wonderful

1597
01:28:17,159 --> 01:28:18,920
you know, I would love to actually do a whole

1598
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,920
Universal History episode on Saint Olga and all her life

1599
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:26,720
because one of the interesting things, one of the interesting

1600
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:29,600
things that has kind of been going on has been

1601
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,239
you know, even a discussion even among like sort of

1602
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:40,239
let's say like Christians saying things like, well, Orthodoxy is

1603
01:28:40,279 --> 01:28:43,439
never going to be truly American, so it can never

1604
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:47,359
actually integrate into the American story, right. I've I've seen

1605
01:28:47,399 --> 01:28:49,760
people you know, even like coming at me on Twitter

1606
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:53,560
to have a debate about this, and so it was

1607
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:57,239
really interesting being with I mean, she's a Machish go

1608
01:28:57,319 --> 01:29:03,199
Olga was a native Alaskan is a native. And so

1609
01:29:03,319 --> 01:29:05,680
we were there, and we were there, you know, in

1610
01:29:06,199 --> 01:29:09,239
a cathedral with you know, probably about eight nine hundred people,

1611
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:14,359
which is really wonderful, beautiful liturgy. You know, nine bishops,

1612
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:19,359
eight or nine bishops, and and you know, like forty

1613
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:22,119
priests and five deacons and you know, just you know,

1614
01:29:22,279 --> 01:29:24,560
hundreds of people. I mean, it's really glorious day, really

1615
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:28,159
beautiful day for the whole American Church. But one of

1616
01:29:28,239 --> 01:29:30,800
the things that you know, was really interesting was was

1617
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:32,640
kind of sitting down and talking with some of the

1618
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:37,159
Native clergy and also even like some of the lay

1619
01:29:37,239 --> 01:29:40,239
people you know, tribal elders and so on, for whom

1620
01:29:41,279 --> 01:29:44,279
you know, they've been their families have been Orthodox longer

1621
01:29:44,359 --> 01:29:46,479
than Alaska has been part of this country.

1622
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:47,039
Speaker 2: Wow.

1623
01:29:47,199 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 4: And so for them, actually being Orthodox is synonymous with

1624
01:29:54,079 --> 01:29:56,600
being a native and with like preserving this sort of

1625
01:29:56,680 --> 01:30:00,119
native culture, right, and so for them it's the uh,

1626
01:30:01,079 --> 01:30:06,880
it's the certain certain missionaries from other Christian groups, uh,

1627
01:30:07,199 --> 01:30:10,479
Presbyterians I think in particular, who kind of you know,

1628
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,279
came in and basically did violence to their native culture,

1629
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:16,000
trying to basically convert them. And they were like, we're

1630
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:17,960
already Christians. What are you guys doing?

1631
01:30:18,199 --> 01:30:18,359
Speaker 2: You know?

1632
01:30:19,079 --> 01:30:22,880
Speaker 4: So, I mean, it's really it's really interesting because you know, uh,

1633
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,560
I I know that I know that a lot of

1634
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:34,279
people have talked before about the ways that the Native Alaskans,

1635
01:30:35,319 --> 01:30:37,359
you know, the way that the way that the ways

1636
01:30:37,399 --> 01:30:40,319
that Orthodoxically integrated Native Alaskan culture without sort of like

1637
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:45,520
just destroying it, and that's it was just really amazing

1638
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:47,680
to see how that continues to be preserved. Not that

1639
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,039
it's not very difficult up there. I mean, they're you know,

1640
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:53,600
there's a huge clergy shortage in Alaska. Alaska's you know,

1641
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:55,960
basically just the hardest place to live in the in

1642
01:30:56,039 --> 01:30:56,960
the country, I think.

1643
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,119
Speaker 2: But but I mean it was really really.

1644
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:03,359
Speaker 4: Beautiful, and it was really definitely had a sort of

1645
01:31:03,399 --> 01:31:05,680
a sense as an American, you know, and as an

1646
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:09,159
Orthodox you know, person living in America and being American,

1647
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:13,000
going to Alaska was kind of very much kind of

1648
01:31:13,039 --> 01:31:14,800
going to the Holy Land in a certain sense.

1649
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:16,279
Speaker 2: It was like, you know, this is kind of this

1650
01:31:16,399 --> 01:31:17,039
is where it began.

1651
01:31:17,239 --> 01:31:20,920
Speaker 3: So but it's interesting to think about, like how.

1652
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:28,199
Speaker 1: The difference between that and the kind of this weird

1653
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:34,159
fake like worship of of Aboriginal culture that we see today, right,

1654
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:38,079
you Like, I keep thinking that one of the greatest things,

1655
01:31:38,199 --> 01:31:40,000
I think even for like one of the great things

1656
01:31:40,039 --> 01:31:42,079
that could happen for America would be in like that

1657
01:31:42,199 --> 01:31:46,720
Black Elk, because Black Elk is up for for becoming

1658
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:51,680
a saint. Like these kinds of gestures could be very powerful,

1659
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,960
powerful gestures. Uh. You know, you can see how you

1660
01:31:56,039 --> 01:31:59,880
can see the difference between that true like embodiment and

1661
01:32:00,399 --> 01:32:04,239
the desire to continue to the desire to find ways

1662
01:32:04,279 --> 01:32:07,279
to integrate our past with the with the faith and

1663
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,319
to kind of do it in a way that's organic

1664
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:15,399
and natural. And the kind of politicized desire to kind

1665
01:32:15,439 --> 01:32:19,840
of use native culture as a as a political tool

1666
01:32:20,119 --> 01:32:23,800
for the this deconstruction of America.

1667
01:32:24,039 --> 01:32:26,439
Speaker 3: Like, those two things to me seem very very different.

1668
01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:30,279
Speaker 1: One has a kind of real narrative power, like a

1669
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:35,159
true and what the other is is like is a yeah,

1670
01:32:35,319 --> 01:32:38,920
is akin to to kind of aligning yourself with the

1671
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:41,680
old gods in order just to destroy the current the

1672
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:42,800
current state of things.

1673
01:32:43,159 --> 01:32:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So yeah, well, I think we've just

1674
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:48,119
covered everything today pretty.

1675
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 3: Much talked about yeah, all kinds of.

1676
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:54,720
Speaker 4: Things, real, real efficient episodes. Yeah, well, dot Than, this

1677
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:56,600
is good to talk to you. It's been a little

1678
01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:57,840
while since we've recorded together.

1679
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:00,560
Speaker 3: So I hope you have a great for the July

1680
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:02,760
that you're going to do American things today.

1681
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:05,560
Speaker 2: Like some very American things. Yeah.

1682
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I mean basically we're gonna, like, you know,

1683
01:33:08,279 --> 01:33:09,840
grill and turn on the sprinkler for.

1684
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 3: The kids, but they go, do you have fireworks on

1685
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:13,520
the fourth of Eyes?

1686
01:33:14,039 --> 01:33:15,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's a big that's a big thing here,

1687
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:18,359
especially especially like it's a big part of kind of

1688
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:22,880
like I hide it well, but I'm really just a

1689
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:28,520
redneck at heart, and uh so it's a big part

1690
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:30,159
of kind of like you know, like I don't know,

1691
01:33:30,319 --> 01:33:33,279
rural American culture, red neck culture, right, you know, setting

1692
01:33:33,279 --> 01:33:37,479
off fireworks. So anyway, you definitely got some plans related

1693
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:40,960
to that today, having some people over for a barbecue

1694
01:33:41,319 --> 01:33:49,359
and will be be uh uh, you know, obviously praying

1695
01:33:49,399 --> 01:33:51,840
for our country. I mean it's very important.

1696
01:33:53,239 --> 01:33:55,039
Speaker 2: That. I mean, this is one of the things that

1697
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:57,920
in the early apologists.

1698
01:33:57,279 --> 01:34:02,119
Speaker 4: Of our faith, when they were being persecuted by the Romans,

1699
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:04,119
you know, would write to the Roman emperor and say, listen,

1700
01:34:06,039 --> 01:34:08,359
we love being Roman more than anybody else does.

1701
01:34:08,399 --> 01:34:10,279
Speaker 2: We pray for you better than anybody else does.

1702
01:34:10,359 --> 01:34:14,039
Speaker 4: And I think really, no matter what country that you

1703
01:34:14,119 --> 01:34:17,640
find yourself living in, if you're an American or you're.

1704
01:34:19,399 --> 01:34:22,119
Speaker 2: God help us Canadian, or your.

1705
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 4: Or your English or your French or whatever else, right,

1706
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,960
I think those are the countries. But no matter what,

1707
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:35,359
no matter what country you find yourself living in, you

1708
01:34:35,399 --> 01:34:38,439
should love that country. And it doesn't matter if the

1709
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:40,319
country is great and it doesn't even matter if the

1710
01:34:40,319 --> 01:34:43,760
country is good. The fact that you live there is

1711
01:34:44,239 --> 01:34:46,039
you know that you were born there or that you

1712
01:34:46,399 --> 01:34:49,239
chose to move there. That's reason enough to love your country.

1713
01:34:49,279 --> 01:34:50,840
And you should pray for it, and you should pray

1714
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,479
for your rulers, and you should pray for your fellow

1715
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,920
citizens and for the world that your children are going

1716
01:34:56,960 --> 01:34:59,199
to grow up in. So that's what we'll be doing today.

1717
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:03,880
I'm gonna celebrate. We're gonna have some beers so that

1718
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:09,279
George Washington is not sad. And by the way, by

1719
01:35:09,319 --> 01:35:12,760
the way, I'll just say how this is how American.

1720
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:13,079
Speaker 6: I am.

1721
01:35:13,239 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 4: So Mount Vernon, which is Washington's plantation in Virginia.

1722
01:35:17,079 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 2: You know, it's like a historical site. You can still

1723
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:19,199
go there.

1724
01:35:19,239 --> 01:35:23,640
Speaker 4: They still grow tobacco and distill whiskey there, and there

1725
01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:25,760
is a there's a thing you can do a few

1726
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:27,680
times a year where you go and you're like sitting

1727
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:31,359
in George Washington's library and you can smoke a cigar

1728
01:35:32,079 --> 01:35:35,920
made from tobacco grown on the site and drink like

1729
01:35:36,159 --> 01:35:38,640
corn whiskey that was distilled on the site.

1730
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:43,399
Speaker 2: And I feel like this would be the most American

1731
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:47,359
thing that's good do So next time you come down.

1732
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:49,479
Let's do it next time you come down.

1733
01:35:49,720 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, all right, thanks everyone, it was great to

1734
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:54,520
see you again.

1735
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,399
Speaker 2: Happy forth everybody, all right, boye bye.

1736
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:00,600
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to

1737
01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:03,359
the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

1738
01:36:03,399 --> 01:36:04,560
can support what we're doing.

1739
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,079
Speaker 3: There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel

1740
01:36:08,159 --> 01:36:10,640
in books to purchase. So go to the symbolic world

1741
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:12,720
dot com and thank you for your support.