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Start having the 24 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.640 most fun ever. At chumbuck Casino dot com. 25 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.880 You'll brig necessary void over if I lost the terms 26 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:03.560 of eighty black Blot Toadian. 27 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:16.120 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 28 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.239 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:26.599 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 30 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.879 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.239 Good Evening, a young bride drowns in her bathtub. Her 34 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:56.159 husband of four months is accused of murder. What happened 35 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:59.640 in their tiny suburban bathroom and why it was never 36 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:04.760 result A compelling true crime drama based on exclusive new information, 37 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:09.479 Submerged exposes hidden angles of the case that captivated and 38 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.639 divided an ordinary American community to re part two families 39 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.479 and tested the criminal justice system, compelled by conscience and curiosity. 40 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:25.039 Former Cincinnati Inquirer reporter Janice morse Heisel, who covered the 41 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:29.000 sag of Ryan and Sarah Widmer from the start, returns 42 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.080 ten years later to dig deep to tell the untold story. 43 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.919 Dozens of interviews, six thousand pages of trial transcripts, and 44 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.680 previously unrevealed records such as Ryan's first written statement about 45 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:46.599 Sarah's death, attorney's notes and trial preparation documents, Ryan's personal 46 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.360 journal notes, and correspondents, more than a thousand pages of 47 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.840 police notes and reports. Submerged will draw you into the 48 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.879 depths of a stranger than fiction story that you will 49 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.599 ponder long after turning the final page. The book that 50 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:06.120 we're featuring this evening is Submerged, Ryan Widmer, his drowned Bride, 51 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.400 and the justice system, with my special guest journalist and author, 52 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.639 Janice Heisel. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 53 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.479 much for agreeing to this interview. It's Janice Heisel. 54 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:18.800 Thanks Dan, it's good to be on the show. 55 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:24.560 Thank you so much. Incredible story and already I had 56 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:27.159 not known of this case. I see that this is 57 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.280 an incredible following right from the very beginning of this 58 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:41.199 case in two thousand and eight, yes believe. 59 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.840 It's in yeah, ten years, more than ten now. 60 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:52.759 Absolutely, Let's talk about where this crime is and story 61 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:56.199 is centered, which is Cincinnati, Ohio. And when you talk 62 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.960 about the Hopewell Valley subdivision and little bit of some 63 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:03.800 of the communities that are involved in this set the 64 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.439 stage for where the community that this occurred where in Cincinnati, 65 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.120 and tell us a little bit about this Hopeful Valley subdivision. 66 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:19.959 Sure, okay, So Hopeful Valley is kind of an ordinary 67 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:25.439 mostly vinyl and brick houses, you know, valued around maybe 68 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.480 one hundred thousand, two hundred thousand, kind of you know, 69 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:34.319 nice starter homes. And Ryan and Sarah actually had built 70 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:37.680 a house there together before they got married, or actually 71 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:41.240 they bought a house that was already constructed. And one 72 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.839 of the reasons that I became so enthralled with this 73 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.920 case is that this subdivision is near where I live, 74 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:53.120 which is right about forty five minutes north of Cincinnati, Ohio. 75 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.199 It's kind of a smallish town, and a lot of 76 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.879 people started to start to wonder whether quote unquote small 77 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.079 town justice was at work here. Because it was a 78 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:07.680 smaller police department, they only had one detective to investigate 79 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:12.680 this unusual death. And that was part of what kind 80 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.879 of wrapped everybody into this. This is a weird way 81 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.360 to die, drowning in a bathtub age twenty four. How 82 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:23.639 does this happen when there's no sign of drugs in 83 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.759 her body or around the scene, There was no sign 84 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.879 of an intruder. Husband must have done it. Seemed kind 85 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:34.079 of like an open and shut case right from the start. 86 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:38.240 But the more people found out about this, the less 87 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:41.199 that seemed true in some people's minds. 88 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.519 Now, tell us you were a news reporter, tell us 89 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.959 who you were working for at that time, and the 90 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.759 website as well as you worked on, and tell us 91 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:53.680 how you heard first of this story and what you 92 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.040 did actually hear about it. 93 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:01.279 Okay, Yes, So I worked for this Sinnati Enquirer and 94 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.560 the website is known as Cincinnati dot com, and it 95 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.639 was my job to keep tabs on everything happening in 96 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.439 a couple of counties in the northern suburbs, both Butler 97 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.439 and Warren Counties. Warren County is where this particular incident 98 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.720 occurred and happens to be where I live, So I 99 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:24.079 remember hearing as part of my job, I would make 100 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:30.480 regular checks with various sources, police, coroner's office, secretaries, people 101 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.680 like that, oftentimes by phone because my territory was so big. 102 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.759 But I remember hearing a little bit of scuttle but 103 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.480 just there was something weird that happened down the road, 104 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.759 but nobody would really come out and tell me exactly 105 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.000 what this was at first, and then finally we heard 106 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.920 that maybe it was a drowning, and if I recall correctly, 107 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:56.079 one of my editors said, well, let's just wait and 108 00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:01.079 see what happens. And then sure enough, then next day 109 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.199 after we first heard about it, is when this press 110 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:08.279 conference was called and the media just flocked to this 111 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.720 small courthouse so we could hear what was this mysterious case, 112 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:16.040 because it wasn't very often that you would hear about 113 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.279 any kind of incident of a big consequence in this 114 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:23.319 little town. In fact, this was the first quote unquote 115 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:28.519 fresh homicide in a decade in this community. 116 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.879 Now you talk about right away in that press conference 117 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.800 that Rachel Hutzel, prosecutor and Lieutenant Jeff Brayley. So what's 118 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:47.560 surprising about this to you and other people that are 119 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.759 seasoned reporters. What's unusual about this? And what is the 120 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.920 content of what they have to say in this who 121 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:58.120 is tell us about those. 122 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:01.319 Well, one of the unusual thing was I remember in 123 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.319 the press release there was a statement along the lines of, 124 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:10.279 you know, we won't be answering questions, you know, until 125 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:12.920 way after this press conference, or something to that effect. 126 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.000 That so kind of like, if you wanted to get 127 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.000 this news, you had to physically be there. I remember 128 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.680 something along those lines. And what was very unusual about 129 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:26.439 the content of the press conference was the prosecutor and 130 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:32.240 the detective Jeff Brayley, both kind of concurred that there 131 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.240 was evidence of a violent struggle at this scene. And 132 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.480 that was the thing that left everybody really wondering what 133 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.399 was this mystery evidence? Now? I was kind of known 134 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:48.440 for being that annoying reporter at the press conference who 135 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.840 wouldn't let the public officials off very easily. So I 136 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.840 kept grilling them and saying, well, how did you you know? 137 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.759 Was this something obvious? Was it at the scene? Well, 138 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.840 it was something that required the skills of the coroner 139 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:04.759 to reveal. And I thought, wow, So it wasn't something 140 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:06.799 on the outside of the body. It was something on 141 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:10.399 the inside of the body. What could that be? And 142 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:14.840 that was the thing that made everybody wonder really deeply 143 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.559 about what is this mystery evidence of a violent struggle. 144 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:25.120 Now, as you are clamoring and others are clamoring for information, 145 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.200 the prosecution is going ahead. So who are these members 146 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:35.759 of the prosecution and tell us some of the players 147 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.799 that line up soon after investigative wise and prosecution and 148 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:40.600 defense wise. 149 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.840 Okay, So again, because of my role in being what 150 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.600 we call cops and courts report or covering these suburban communities, 151 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.720 it was my job to know some of the movers 152 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.679 and shakers, the people who tended to make headlines when 153 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.440 there were headlines to be made. Again, some of these 154 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.519 communities and a small and not a lot of really 155 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:08.000 big shocking crime going on. So Rachel Hudzell, the county prosecutor, 156 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:14.679 she was someone who she really kind of catapulted up 157 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.519 the ranks in the county government. It was kind of unusual, 158 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.639 I hate to say this, the kind of the good 159 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.879 old boy network for a female. She became the first 160 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.799 female prosecutor in this county, and a lot of people 161 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.120 thought that she had a lot of ambitions to become 162 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:34.080 a judge, and she eventually did become a judge. Now, 163 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:36.399 I had a very good relationship, I would say, a 164 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:40.519 very good working relationship with both Rachel Hutzell and with 165 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:44.200 the lead investigator, Jeff Brailey. Now, neither of them were 166 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:47.240 the kind of people that I would you know, go 167 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.600 out with socially, and I think this was a professional relationship. 168 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:55.600 They were my trusted sources. However, in Rachel's case, she 169 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.159 played a lot of things very close to the vest, 170 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.559 and I had a hard time ever getting to really 171 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:04.519 go off the record and speak candidly to me. But Jeff, 172 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.080 on the other hand, he was somebody who, even though 173 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.799 he worked for a very small police department, he was 174 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:13.480 somebody who I had the impression and so did many 175 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.919 other people, that he kind of liked being in the 176 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.360 limelight when he could be, and he was actually a 177 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:22.879 very good interview and I considered our relationship to be 178 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:27.559 pretty what I would call symbiotic, meaning, Hey, I need stories, 179 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:29.879 he wants to be in them and give good quotes. 180 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.799 So that's a good relationship when you're a news reporter. 181 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.919 So Jeff also it was kind of interesting he was 182 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:42.559 a minister on the side, and in fact, his role 183 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.279 as being a minister was what led him to be 184 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.159 on the police department. As odd as that might found. 185 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:54.279 Jeff had been the chaplain for the local fire department, 186 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.360 and that kind of his responsibilities morphed over the years 187 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.559 until he became part of the police department, and there 188 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.039 are a whole lot of questions that were raised, especially later. 189 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.799 I didn't know him very well until he ascended higher 190 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:12.960 into the ranks about how that happened, So it was 191 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:17.120 kind of an interesting progression from his career. 192 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:21.559 Tell us, as you write in the book, a little 193 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:26.799 bit about Ryan Widmer and also Sarah Stewart, tell us 194 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:29.639 about how they met, but first a little bit about 195 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:31.639 their backgrounds, who they were. 196 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:37.240 Okay, so I had no idea who these people were, 197 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:39.919 and in fact, most people had no idea who these 198 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.720 people were until after all of this brought them out 199 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:49.240 into the public eye, unwittingly, of course. So I'll start 200 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.799 with Sarah. He actually seemed like the kind of person 201 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.679 I would have loved to have known, because I tend 202 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.440 to be kind of a little bit of a social 203 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:03.240 butterfly and state my opinion fairly strongly when I have one, 204 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.399 and it sounded like she was like that as well. 205 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.039 It was just sad to me that I never got 206 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.759 to know her, and the more I spoke to people, 207 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.399 the more I had wished I had had the opportunity 208 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.919 to know her. She was described as being very feisty, 209 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.000 but also had a little bit of sweetness tor the 210 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.200 kind of person who would make cookies for someone who 211 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.240 was sick or at Christmas time or whatever. Just a 212 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.240 sweet touch tour but don't cross her kind of thing. 213 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.399 And she grew up in a town called Trenton near Trenton, Ohio, 214 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.080 where there's like the Miller Brewery. It's kind of very 215 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:44.840 blue collar area. And likewise, Ryan Ryan Widmer, who later 216 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.320 became her husband, he grew up in a very blue 217 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.720 collar community as well, but his was a larger blue 218 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:55.240 collar community known as Cole Raine Township. And this is 219 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.279 on the west side of Cincinnati. And Ryan was a 220 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.960 very talented athlete. From what I've heard, he was the 221 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:04.720 kind of guy after I got to talk to him, 222 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:06.759 that doesn't like to kind of toot his own horn 223 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:08.600 very much. But a lot of people thought he was 224 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.240 a pretty talented athlete. He ended up going to college 225 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.960 and the playing baseball in college, and that is where 226 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.759 he met a man named Chris Kissed and Chris was 227 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.600 his college roommate, and Chris was married to a woman 228 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:32.080 named Dana Well. Dana ends up working with Sarah Stewart 229 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:37.759 at a dental office, and Sarah and Dana became very 230 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:42.679 good friends. So Dana and her husband Chris thought, you 231 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:47.600 know what, their personalities, Ryan and Sarah's personalities are very 232 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:51.240 similar to ours, where Ryan's kind of reserved and laid back, 233 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.440 and you know, Sarah's more feisty and likewise, the same 234 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.600 could be said of Chris and Dana, and they thought, well, 235 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:02.120 since we get along so well, hmm, they're both single, 236 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.559 why don't we play matchmaker? So they kind of arranged 237 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.159 a safe double date, so to speak, in case it 238 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.279 didn't work out. It was that the four of them 239 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:14.039 went out to have a few drinks and some appetizers 240 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:18.320 kind of thing, and they were amazed to see how 241 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.919 well that Ryan and Sarah really hit it off from 242 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:21.360 the start. 243 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:29.480 Right now, you talk about that, it was a whirlwind 244 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.919 of romance. It was soon after that he was he 245 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.960 was proposing for marriage, and that was a very interesting, 246 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.600 I guess, and very romantic story as well. Tell us 247 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.879 a little bit about this marriage and what the families 248 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.080 thought of each other, a little bit about the families 249 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.159 some of the members, but what each thought of this union. 250 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.960 Well, from what I understand, the families, you know, they 251 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.360 didn't they didn't know each other super well at the 252 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.799 time that this uple got married, but they seemed to 253 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.440 get along just fine from everything that I had had 254 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:13.200 gleaned from interviews after the fact. However, you start. There 255 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:15.840 were some records that I was able to obtain later 256 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:21.120 that started to give me some insight that Sarah's mother 257 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.039 may not have been entirely thrilled with the idea of 258 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:27.879 her daughter marrying Ryan, And it didn't seem like there 259 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:32.200 was anything personality wise or relationship wise that she didn't like, 260 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:35.919 but rather, according to the documents that I saw, she 261 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:41.279 expressed misgivings that her daughter was making more money than 262 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.279 her husband to be and kind of had a belief, 263 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.320 I think that the man should be the breadwinner. So, 264 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.559 as far as I could tell, though, the families got 265 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.120 along pretty well, in fact very well. There was never 266 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.080 any no one ever brought to my attention any kind 267 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:01.559 of friction between these families, and it seemed to be 268 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.920 two big, happy families melding together as a result of 269 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:09.400 this romantic wedding, and you know, people were thrilled. The 270 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:13.119 wedding pictures show a lot of exuberance and joy, and 271 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:16.880 it was really sad later on for me to get 272 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:20.079 to see those and know what the eventual outcome would be. 273 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.960 Only four months after that wedding day. 274 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:28.079 Yeah, tell us about the nine to one one call 275 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:33.720 from Ryan Windler August eleventh of that year. 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That particular sentence and the fact 306 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.759 that it was the first thing that he said, automatically 307 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.880 set off a bunch of alarm bells, so to speak, 308 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.640 questions as to why would you offer a quote unquote 309 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:17.000 explanation or excuse instead of giving more information you heard 310 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.640 the excuse being that she fell asleep in the bathtub, 311 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:26.720 and what a seemingly preposterous thing to say. So, but 312 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:32.200 then it might not seem as preposterous if you're a 313 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.279 reporter like I am, and you start to talk to 314 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.200 friends and they tell you that they were concerned about 315 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:42.680 Sarah's health, that she would fall asleep in odd places. 316 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.680 They would say, what kind of twenty four year old 317 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.319 woman falls asleep at a tailgate party in the daytime? 318 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.599 And also in a crowded football stadium, and Dana kissed 319 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.559 the coworker who ended up playing matchmaker. She even justified 320 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.799 on the witness stand that Sarah would go into a 321 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:08.599 darkened room to try to ease her headaches. She would 322 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:13.160 get these terrible headaches and see spots. And the day 323 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.319 that she died, Dana was no longer working there. But 324 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:21.839 that very day everyone at the dental office said that 325 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.839 Sarah didn't feel well, that she had this odd pain 326 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:28.960 in the back of her neck, and that her stomach 327 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:34.119 was upset. And look, some people might see that as 328 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:39.519 being those are kind of everyday complaints, maybe not anything sinister. However, 329 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.559 there are a lot of people who are familiar with seizures, 330 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.480 and they say people who have seizures can develop what's 331 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.039 called an aura, or a collection of symptoms that let 332 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.000 the person know, hey, I'm about to have a seizure. 333 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.759 Now they become familiar with this aura. But what if 334 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.839 this was a first time incident. Maybe the things that 335 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:05.920 were happening to Sarah were many seizures, all of those 336 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:11.440 sleepiness incidents and the headaches and whatnot. So again, what 337 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.839 seemed like maybe a little of a clear cut case 338 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:18.559 for some people. If you start to layer onto that 339 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.759 the facts that were coming out about Sarah, maybe. 340 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:27.839 Not what were some of the things you talk about 341 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.799 first responders at a scene, and many many cases that 342 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.279 we talk about on true murder, it really is first 343 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:42.000 responders that question the veracity of that person's account of 344 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.799 what happened, and based on some of the evidence that's 345 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:49.079 right before their eyes. What the first responders find in 346 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.960 this case, what are some of their questions? 347 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.720 Well, one of these things that became almost like a 348 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:05.079 mantra during Ryan Widmer's court case was her hair was wet, 349 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:13.559 her body seemed dry. Also, the scene seemed surprisingly dry 350 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:17.960 for a person who had reportedly just been pulled out 351 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:24.759 of a bathtub filled with water. Again, however, as odd 352 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:27.319 as all of that sounds, and as suspicious as all 353 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:32.319 that sounds, what if there's an explanation for that? Ryan 354 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:37.720 Widmer would later provide that explanation, and his lawyers would 355 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.720 through some documents that I saw, But that was a 356 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.400 fact that didn't come out until the case went to trial. 357 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.720 About the dryness of the scene, They kept that under 358 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.880 wrapped pretty well. 359 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:56.559 Let's talk about what happens, because right away they put 360 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.640 this case as you write is explode in the media. 361 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.519 There's so much interest. You talk about Jess Ryan's bail 362 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.160 being a million dollars, tell us what happens in that 363 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.279 is he forced to stay in prison? What about the 364 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:14.000 one million dollar bail? Tell us about that. 365 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:20.680 Well, what was absolutely heartbreaking and to me, very touching, poignant, 366 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:27.279 dramatic was at Ryan's first court hearing, members of Sarah's 367 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:32.119 family were there and begging the judge to let him 368 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.440 out so he could go to her funeral, so they 369 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.839 could have a funeral for her. And that didn't happen. 370 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.680 And then the next court appearance, very similar thing. You know, 371 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:49.279 we have the brother of Sarah saying, you know, in 372 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.519 our heart of hearts, I still remember this quote, in 373 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.279 our heart of hearts, we don't think he did this. 374 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.039 We don't believe he did this. That that really struck 375 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.400 with me. It was a very touching and sad thing 376 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:06.240 to have the brother, the only brother of this reported 377 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:10.279 victim of homicide up there saying, hey, we want this 378 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.160 guy out. We don't think he did it. And so 379 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.720 eventually the bond did get released to about four hundred 380 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.079 thousand if I recall correctly, which then was enough for 381 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.720 the family to put together. You have to put together 382 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.319 a ten percent of that and he was allowed out. 383 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.440 But get this, he was released just a couple hours 384 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.000 too late. They delayed the memorial service and they were 385 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.559 trying to get him there, but he was released a 386 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:39.240 couple hours too late to attend. 387 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:47.240 Yeah, be sad, Yeah, absolutely. Now, what was the theory 388 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:53.200 from Rachel Hutzel and the prosecution? What was there just 389 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.599 their summary of what there was some mystery evidence as 390 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.519 you write, it wasn't going to be revealed till that trial. 391 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:04.000 But what was their basis? What did they assert? 392 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:09.839 Well, when you say theory, that's kind of hard to 393 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:14.640 pin down because the theories seemed to shift as the 394 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:19.720 case for crust in court, which was very strange to 395 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:24.440 me as a reporter. Usually I see the prosecution and 396 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:27.160 the defense kind of dig their heels into this is 397 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.359 our theory of the case. This is our version of 398 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:36.599 what happened, And in this case there were changes that 399 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:41.799 were kind of surprising that occurred. Now, the evidence that 400 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.759 was referred to as being quote unquote evidence of a 401 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:51.079