WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:05.320 It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Boston's 2 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:06.040 Nies Radio. 3 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:11.400 All right, welcome back everyone. It's eleven, Dan Watkins, thank 4 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:13.599 you very much. I think it's eleven oh eight if 5 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:16.879 I'm not mistaken. And we're gonna take a little breather 6 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:22.320 from the controversy of last Hour and the economics of 7 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:26.760 the nine o'clock hour. And we have a very special 8 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.879 guest with us tonight. His name is Scott Kerman. Scott 9 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:35.039 is a Massachusetts native. He's the humor columnist at the 10 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:39.359 Eagle Tribune newspaper. He's the author of six previous books, 11 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:43.880 including the World According to Scott series, and he is 12 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:49.439 a comedian by practice. He's been on a lot of 13 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:56.840 very well known national broadcast Letterman Show and places like that. 14 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:03.119 And he has written a book, a book that I 15 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:06.079 don't want to call it an authorized biography, but it's 16 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:10.439 a biography of sort entitled The Duke Weekly Conversations with 17 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:15.319 the Last Honest Politician. And I kind of agree with that, 18 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.319 to be honest with you, because Mike Ducaccus was a 19 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.560 very honest guy in my opinion. Scott Kerman, welcome to 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:24.280 Knight said, how. 21 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.040 Are you fine? 22 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:26.319 Thanks? 23 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.680 Dan, thanks for having me on. 24 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:33.079 Yeah, I've enjoyed the book. Those of us who were 25 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.599 working in this town or living in this town when 26 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:41.120 Mike Decoccus was governor beginning in nineteen seventy four, when 27 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:44.920 he was first elected. He was defeated by Ed King 28 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.280 in a Democratic primary in nineteen seventy eight, but then 29 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.519 he came back and got re elected in eighty two, 30 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:55.239 and elected again in eighty six, ran and lost the 31 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:59.920 presidency in eighty eight, and has left the governor's office 32 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.599 in nineteen ninety one. So he's thirty five years out 33 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:09.319 of public office. But he's still alive and doing well. Sadly, 34 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:14.280 his wife passed away just within the last few weeks. 35 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:17.560 But you've spent a lot of time with Mike Tecoccus. 36 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:18.919 As a matter of fact, you met him when you 37 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:24.360 were an eleven year old young man, and so you've 38 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:30.080 known Mike Tococcus for a long time. This is this 39 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:32.479 is a fun book to read, particularly those of us 40 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:40.479 who remember him well and agree with his honesty. He 41 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:46.240 was almost in some respects too honest a politician. Other 42 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.000 than the fact that you met him when you were 43 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.560 eleven years old, and obviously you've admired him greatly. You 44 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.400 admire him to this day greatly. How did you work 45 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:58.800 this out where you could write? I think, you know 46 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:03.919 it's the only biog I've ever seen of Michael Michael Docaccus. 47 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.159 Yes, thank you. Yeah. So, twenty years ago I came 48 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:12.599 to Brookline and we reconnected, and so I started a 49 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.479 show called The Grand Studenters Live. It's kind of like 50 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.800 we talked about the sports tuttle, So in this case 51 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.280 it was my mailman, my barber, and my two best 52 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.719 friends who are season ticket holders at the Red Sox. 53 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.120 So we started this show fifteen years ago and my 54 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.800 first guest was Bob Bryan of the Boston Globe. And 55 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.919 my second guest, well I asked him, was Governor Michael Dicaccus. 56 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.000 I said, have you ever been on a sports show before? 57 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.439 He says no, But you know I like you, so 58 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:43.719 why don't we do it? So he was on our 59 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.800 show annually for each year, and then Dan about four 60 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.240 years ago. All of a sudden, you know, Governor Decaucus, 61 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.439 you can be talking about one subject and he'll just 62 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.120 ammiliately have a completely separate train of thought. We're talking 63 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.800 about the Red Sox and how they stink at that moment, 64 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.240 and he says, Scott, I can't understand how anyone can 65 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:05.919 be anything but honest. I was brought up to believe 66 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:08.360 that honesty wasn't a choice, it was the way you 67 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.439 lived your life. You tell the truth. This is non negotiable. 68 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.840 You do what's right. It's not that hard. I've never 69 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.759 understood lying. And Dan, all of a sudden, it just 70 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.879 this light just came above my head and I'd go, Wow, 71 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.560 there's something here. There's something greater than just the thirteen 72 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.279 pages in the Wikipedia of Governor Micha Michael Decaccus. So 73 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:35.240 next week I spoke to him. I said, can I 74 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:37.319 write a book with you? And he said I'd love to, 75 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.759 but I don't want it to be all about me, 76 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.759 So I said, okay, I'll make it about me too. 77 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.879 So it's his words, it's my words the end. And 78 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:52.519 the response has been incredible and it's been out a 79 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:54.800 few weeks and couldn't be happier with it. 80 00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:00.680 Well, it's an easy read. It runs about trying to 81 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.439 just look at the end here about one hundred and 82 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:07.480 fifty pages or so. There's some pictures, and it does 83 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.839 touch upon his life and I want to go through 84 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:16.519 it because he's a guy who came very close to 85 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.639 becoming President of the United States in nineteen eighty eight. 86 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.480 I will tell you that I was signed to cover 87 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:26.959 George Bush on election night in Houston, Texas, and I 88 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.480 was down there a few days in advance, and there 89 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.000 was no question that Texas was going to go for 90 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.800 George Bush. The family deep roots in Texas. Mike Decaccus 91 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.639 was not a threat to win Texas, although his running 92 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.959 mate was Lloyd Benson, the Senator from Texas. And I 93 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.040 remember talking to Lee Atwater the night before. Atwater was 94 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:54.199 sort of perceived to be George Bush's henchman. He was 95 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.519 the guy that played rough politically, and I remember having 96 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.800 a conversation with Water that night, and the polls suggested 97 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.720 that Bush was the favorite to win the next day. 98 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:08.399 But there were about ten states that were in play. 99 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.639 Many of the states were sort of Midwestern states, some 100 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.480 of which went in subsequent elections either to Bill Clinton 101 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:20.680 or to President Barack Obama. And if all of those 102 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.879 states had fallen the right way, you know, Docacas carried 103 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:26.720 the states that you would expect Maryland, Massachusetts, most of 104 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:30.759 the New England states, New York, California, Washington, and Bush 105 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:35.519 cleaned up down south in the Plain States and also 106 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:37.959 in the Midwest, and a lot of those states, and 107 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:39.639 I don't have the number in front of me, but 108 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.480 states like Iowa and Minnesota, which eventually became, you know, 109 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:49.079 fairly democratic states. They went to Bush. But Atwater was 110 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.600 not comfortable. He did not sleep well the night before, 111 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:58.040 although again Bush did win. And I remember Governor Ducaccas 112 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.759 was doing this like forty eight or sixty hour marathon. 113 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:05.759 He was just flying in a plane, you know, sleeping, catnapping. 114 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:10.639 He was, you know, sprinting to the end and hitting 115 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:15.000 as many airports as he could with rallies. And I 116 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.120 thought at the time, hey, this thing might be closer 117 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.279 than people imagined. And it was closer than people imagined. 118 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:26.519 And I hope you can take some consolation in that. 119 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.759 Have you talked to him about you must, I know 120 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.480 in the book you talked about the election of eighty eight. 121 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.519 I mean, there aren't too many people, As you mentioned 122 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:39.839 in the book, there's only five living Americans who were 123 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:44.720 this party standard bearers who were not elected president. Al 124 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:51.720 Gore is still alive. Hillary Clinton was the nominee who lost. 125 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:56.319 Mitt Romney is in that very special category. John Kerry 126 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.319 and Mike Twocaucus. 127 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.639 Yeah, and he's the oldest one. Absolutely, it's like the 128 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.600 time for us to all have breakfast. It's ftgs, you know. 129 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:10.800 And yes, remarkable. He had a seventeen point lead for 130 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.759 people who don't remember or weren't born during that election, 131 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.800 had a seventeen point lead coming out of the convention. 132 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:19.639 So three things happen, and we talked about these three 133 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.199 things during the course of the book. That kind of 134 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.079 changed things. And he put it in order, the debate question, 135 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.519 the second debate in LA, the debate question concerning the 136 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:37.600 death penalty, the tank photo, and the Willie Horton at And. 137 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:42.960 I think I think Bush was very effective with the 138 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:47.720 Boston Harbor cleanup, right, which I think also heard of. 139 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:49.919 We're going to get to all of those, I promise, 140 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.039 but I got to take a commercial break. My guest 141 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.559 is Scott Kerman. He's written a book called The Duke 142 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.799 Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. You conducted these conversations, 143 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:02.759 was it over a. 144 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:07.639 Full year, of course of three plus years at his 145 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:08.840 kitchen table. 146 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.919 Okay, at his kitchen table on Perry Street in Brookline. 147 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.000 If you'd like to share a memory, ask a question 148 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:21.000 about Mike Tocaccus, who was still with us, lost his 149 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.559 the love of his life, Kitty Tucaccus a few weeks ago. Sadly, 150 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.399 but he's he's ninety two years old and still going 151 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.360 strong and as sharp as he ever was mentally. He's 152 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:42.240 maintained his his intellect long past the ages of Donald Trump, 153 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:46.120 Ronald Reagan, and Joe Biden. He could if he had 154 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.559 been elected, he could have handled the office. We'll take 155 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.440 a break, my guest, Scott Kerman. If you like to 156 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.240 ask a question, to join the conversation, you're welcome to 157 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.919 join us. And if you'd like to share a memory 158 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.080 six one seven ten thirty six months seven nine three 159 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:04.399 one ten thirty. I'd like to change it up every 160 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:06.399 once in a while here on Night Side. I know 161 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:10.360 we had a very hot last hour dealing with Dave 162 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:15.320 Paleologus and Poles polling today, but these hours are important 163 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:17.039 to me as well I hope they are to you. 164 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.600 Feel free to join the conversation. If you have a 165 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:23.480 memory of reflection, probably most of you at some point 166 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.519 have met Mike Dukakis. Feel free to share any of 167 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.759 those stories as well, we'll be back on Nightside right 168 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:30.159 after this. 169 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:36.480 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 170 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.639 My guest to Scott Kerman. He's just written a book, 171 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:45.120 The Duke Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. It 172 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.480 was a little bit of a sense of Tuesdays with 173 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:53.000 Maury in here, Mitch Album's very successful book of several 174 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:57.679 years ago. Explain to us just the setting every week 175 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:00.600 that you would sit with him. Explain to us, paint 176 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:04.399 the picture of the location of the conversations that were 177 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.159 in his kitchen on Perry Street and Brookline, if I'm 178 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:07.879 not mistaken. 179 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:13.759 Yeah, in this kitchen, just sitting there with him and I. 180 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:17.519 You know, Kitty would come down. Kitty was ailing from 181 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:19.519 the whole period of time that I was there. Kitty 182 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.120 was ailing. So she would come down though in her bathrobe, 183 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:25.440 and we would talk together and have lots of laughs, 184 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.600 and then she'd go back upstairs. But it really was 185 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.279 just him and I, not really anyone else, no distractions, 186 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.080 and just of course we have a great friendship. But 187 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:38.000 as you see the book, as it goes on, the 188 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.960 friendship gets closer and closer, and then he opens up 189 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.639 more and more with me. So initially, Dan some of 190 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:46.679 the stuff he would say off the record because you 191 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:48.960 just used to talking to people like Dan Ray and 192 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:51.879 off the record on the record. But then after about 193 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.440 a few months everything was on the record, and to 194 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.399 be honest with you, he lets fly and a lot 195 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.919 of people. And when Michael Decocas doesn't like you, he 196 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.639 does he can't say your name, He calls you that 197 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:10.000 there there was three that there was that guy and 198 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.679 you can, I guess, I'm pretty easy who that guy is. 199 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.159 They had a coccadoonal dog and he didn't like him, 200 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:21.159 so it was that dog. And then the. 201 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.200 Third was how did a politician not like his dog? 202 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:29.159 He didn't like this dog? 203 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.960 That was his dog that you're talking about, right, No. 204 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:35.919 It was Kitty's dog. It was Kitty's dog. 205 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.399 Well okay, but come on, it was the dog living 206 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.039 in the house with him and with Kitty. I know, 207 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:46.360 first of all, politicians have to love dogs. So that's okay, 208 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.639 I'll give him a pass on that. Go ahead. 209 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.039 What the dog when they gave the dog away? And 210 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.279 he said he didn't mourn the loss of the dog. 211 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:55.159 So it was. 212 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:00.279 A dog. But that's okay, go ahead, Scott. 213 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.840 Well ninety years old. Yeah, it was a little more 214 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:06.440 difficult than normal. But and of course he didn't like 215 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:08.960 Charlie Baker because of the way he handled the tea. 216 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.960 And you could be talking. 217 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.759 About heated gloves and he would mention something about Charlie 218 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:16.960 Baker and the tea. So it was kind of that 219 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.480 openness that that that happened during the course of this 220 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.799 book that I think people are appreciating. 221 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:25.840 No, No, I totally get that. Who who is the 222 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.039 He didn't like the dog and he didn't like Charlie Baker. 223 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:31.799 That guy, which of course is Trump. Yeah, I mean, 224 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.360 you know Trump. He talks to Trump. Yet I mean yet, 225 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:37.240 it's funny. 226 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.960 It's funny. I got to know Mike Docaccas pretty well. 227 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:45.759 I would have assumed that Mike doucaccas, Harvard Law school 228 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:50.639 guy Swathmore, probably would have seen in Charlie Baker some 229 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:55.159 things that he admired. That's kind of surprises me, because 230 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.519 Charlie Baker was not a Trump guy. I can see 231 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:04.200 Mike not liking Trump. I know that there were other 232 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.279 Republicans who we talked about who he did not like, Okay, 233 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:14.240 but I could see him actually bonding with Baker over 234 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:20.240 Baker's independence within you know, the Republican Party. But that's fine, so. 235 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:25.320 You can't pay anything. Look, he was it was all 236 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.639 about the tea when it came to Charlie Baker. He 237 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.919 never said anything about him personally or any other issue. 238 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.840 It's his beloved tea. And you know he wants to 239 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:38.759 connect North and the South station worse than any human 240 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.320 being of his planet. But it was the way he 241 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.200 handled the tea was with how that came out in 242 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.399 this book. 243 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:46.840 So let me ask you that I'm going to ask 244 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:48.799 a couple of questions that may or may not be 245 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:53.559 in the book, So bear with me. He's the what 246 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:57.519 he runs for president in nineteen eighty eight, He's more 247 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:00.799 than the governor of Massachusetts. He's more than the Democratic 248 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:05.120 nominee for president. He at that point becomes the titular 249 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.759 leader of the Democratic Party nationally. That's traditionally what happens, 250 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:15.960 particularly when you're the non incumbent party. Give us his thoughts, 251 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.440 if you will, on some of the people who came 252 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:22.759 after him. Bill Clinton spoke at the convention that Mike 253 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.720 Dukaccus was nominated at in Atlanta in nineteen eighty eight 254 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:33.399 and Clinton gave one of the longest, most boring speeches 255 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.320 in the history of any national political convention. I don't 256 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.759 think that Mike Dukaccus, probably down deep, would have liked 257 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.320 a Bill Clinton. I could be wrong, but I'd love 258 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:46.639 to know. 259 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:49.200 You know, no, well, he liked him. 260 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.120 They were great friends. Yeah, they were great friends. It's interesting. 261 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.039 First of all, he beats the Coccus beat some heavyweights 262 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:01.879 for the Democratic nomination, Joe Biden or Jesse Jackson, dip 263 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:08.000 Dick Geppart, and Gary Hart and Paul Simon from Illinois. 264 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.919 So he beats heavyweights, the guys who ended up, of course, 265 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.679 one being president, one being vice president, and almost president. 266 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.440 So that in itself is an incredible accomplishment. So I 267 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.440 asked him, so, you're absolutely what you said is correct. 268 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.679 In so Clinton is the keynote speaker in eighty eight, 269 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:29.600 do you have any conversation with Clinton about being your 270 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.679 running mate? And he says no, I never considered it. 271 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.240 So I thought, wow, that's kind of strange because all 272 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:38.960 of a sudden, four years later, this guy's going to 273 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.360 be president of the United States, but yet he wasn't 274 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.639 even he didn't even get an interview. 275 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.919 But to this, remember this. Their careers were very parallel 276 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:53.639 in some regard. Obviously, Clinton's a little younger most I mean, 277 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:59.159 you know, yeah, he's he's about twelve years younger or so, 278 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:04.200 maybe fourteen years younger than Docuccus. But they're both governors, 279 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:09.000 and they're both governors who tasted the sting of defeat. 280 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.599 Clinton was beaten in nineteen eighty. Ducaccus was beaten by 281 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:15.319 Ed King in nineteen seventy eight. 282 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.119 The reason she's never got over just so you know, 283 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:19.279 he's never got over there. 284 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.319 Absolutely, it was his own party that turned him away. 285 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:28.759 For Ed King, I thought he might have looked at 286 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:34.799 Clinton a little differently. Bill Clinton was the antithesis of 287 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:39.440 Mike Ducaccus in the sense that Bill Clinton worked with 288 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.960 the Republicans once he knew that he had problems politically, 289 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:49.000 he worked with Newt Gingrich Okay. Also on a personal life, 290 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:54.480 Bill Clinton's personal behavior in the White House, none of 291 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:56.759 that ever would have happened if Mike Ducaccus had been 292 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.119 President of the United States. He was a husband of 293 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.119 Kitty Ducaccas, first, last, and always. He was a devoted 294 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:09.119 husband of devoted dad. And I'm surprised that he although 295 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.799 he might have admired Clinton's success in ninety two and 296 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.359 the fact that he was a Democrat, and maybe Ducaccus 297 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:20.480 thinks that that he was kind of the he was 298 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.839 the pathfinder, if you will, for Bill Clinton. Here you 299 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:29.720 had a governor from from the south Arkansas that was 300 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:35.440 able to break through and get elected and beat the 301 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.920 same guy that he lost to. I can understand where 302 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.759 he might admire that, but I just don't understand the 303 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.200 sort of the behavior of Clinton. I mean, Clinton was 304 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.240 kind of a wild man. Mike Ducaccus was not a wild. 305 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:54.079 Man, and complete opposite. Yeah, but they both were part 306 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.519 of the National Governors Association, to which you know Mike 307 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.680 Dicacus led, so they were they worked together and they 308 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.559 were very friendly. So they did have a good relationship. 309 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.759 And yes, he has great respect for Clinton, of the 310 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.480 moral side, not so much of course. 311 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:14.079 What about what did what did he think of I 312 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.400 could see that he would admire then Senator Obama, young 313 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.799 senator from Illinois, who wild the convention here in Boston 314 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:27.640 in two thousand and four. Did what did Docaccus think 315 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.559 of Hillary Clinton? I think he would have liked Hillary 316 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.279 Clinton more than he liked her husband, because she held 317 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:44.680 that relationship together. And she also was not a Democrat 318 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.160 who was willing to compromise her positions. She's much more 319 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:53.519 similar to Ducaccus philosophically than he was to her husband 320 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:55.839 explained that once a bit. 321 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.000 Did he Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, you nailed it, Dan, Absolutely, 322 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.200 they both would have been I mean working presidents, you know. 323 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.319 And and he had great respects for Hillary. But I 324 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.640 did have, you know, to mention this in the book. 325 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.720 I said, well, did Hillary reach out to you when 326 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.480 she was running for president? And he said, no, she 327 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.559 did not. And I said, were you disappointed by that? 328 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.519 He said, you know, and and the caucuses such classy 329 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.640 and respectful way. It would have been nice to have 330 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.119 received a call from her. And you know, so there 331 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.599 are certain parts and you know, when you talk about 332 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:32.640 it about being the leader of the. 333 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.359 Book, Mike Mike Docaucus, and I hope he's not listening 334 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.000 to Hillary Clinton. He was yesterday's news. 335 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.359 Well, but you know he said this, Well, where if 336 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.359 I was very interesting Dan, and you just you've had 337 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.200 brought that you had just brought this up. I said, 338 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.200 were you the leader of the party the day after 339 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.039 the election, after the presidential election, were you still the 340 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.519 leader of the party. And he said, no, that's it. 341 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:03.680 I lost. No one cares you move on. And I 342 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.400 thought that was very interesting. And you know we're seeing 343 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.200 that in the same case with Kamala Harris. You know, 344 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:11.599 she's not the leader of the party anymore. You know, 345 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:12.799 I don't know who is. 346 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.839 But Roney mid Romney lost. He wasn't the leader of 347 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:22.480 the party. Al Gore lost, John Carry lost, John Kerry 348 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:24.880 wasn't the leader of the party. He won. Onto different 349 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.799 and other things. Okay, we got to take a break. 350 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:30.960 We're at the newscast. I want to talk about the 351 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.920 Willie Brown case, the Willy Horton case, excuse me, the 352 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.240 Willie Horton case, which I think heard him. You're familiar 353 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:41.440 with that case, of course, the question about capital punishment, 354 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:44.920 his day in the tank. This is a guy who 355 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.680 actually served in the military on the front lines in Korea, 356 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.839 not in a war time, but in a war zone, 357 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.119 and yet he was pillared, battered from pillar to post 358 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.039 for the ride in the tank. So we got a 359 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.559 bunch of things to talk about. I'm hoping my audience 360 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.720 might have some interest in this topic as well. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, 361 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.960 thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Scott 362 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:13.799 sent me this book, which I have read most of. Uh. 363 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.880 It's a great read for those of us who are 364 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.720 political junkies and history buffs. We will be back with 365 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:26.839 my guest, Scott Kerman, who himself has a very interesting career, 366 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.680 both as a humor columnist at the Eagle Tribune newspaper, 367 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.519 but as someone who met Mike Ducaccus at the age 368 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:38.519 of eleven on when Mikedecaccus was a governor back in 369 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.400 nineteen seventy seven, so he's known him a long time. 370 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.559 I spent a lot of time with Governor Decacus. Always 371 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:49.000 enjoyed my time with him. Always accessible, always very honest, 372 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.200 not someone who is a games player at all, and 373 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.680 that probably might have hurt him, to be honest with you. 374 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.599 We'll be back on Nightside talking uh the presidential candidacy 375 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:04.519 and the career of Michael Stanley Ducaucus. Back on Nightside 376 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.440 right after this. Light these lines up, folks. I'm disappointed 377 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.279 that no one wants to join this conversation. I love 378 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:12.839 this topic. I hope some of you do as well. 379 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.240 We're back after this. 380 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:17.680 It's Night Side with Dan ray On. 381 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:23.599 Boston's News radio, where this is Scott Scott Kerman. He's 382 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.799 written a book called The Duke Weekly Conversations with the 383 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.880 Last Honest Politician. I think it's a great title. These 384 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:37.000 these conversations were in Governor Ducaucus's kitchen on Perry Street, 385 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.519 in small front lawn. I remember the week that he 386 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.200 was nominated and we were trying to figure out who's 387 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:47.279 going to pick his vice president. I was over on 388 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.599 Perry Street and he's out there mowing his lawn with 389 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:58.440 a hand held lawnmower, not a gas powered lawnmower, one 390 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.240 of the old lawnmowers, all push law and more. Okay, 391 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.960 let's talk about that question that was asked of him 392 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.000 back in nineteen eighty eight about if his wife was 393 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:16.640 a really nasty question by Bernard Shaw. This was the 394 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.920 question at a presidential debate, if your wife was raped 395 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.079 and murdered, would you still oppose the death penalty? 396 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.599 That was essentially a question, right, Yeah, that's exactly what 397 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:28.079 it was. 398 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:34.519 Which was what he believed. But characteristically he doesn't regret 399 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:35.559 the honest answer. 400 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.880 Right, he regrets it. I mean, you've got the answering it. 401 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:41.559