Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Boston's
Speaker 1: Nies Radio.
Speaker 2: All right, welcome back everyone. It's eleven, Dan Watkins, thank
Speaker 2: you very much. I think it's eleven oh eight if
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. And we're gonna take a little breather
Speaker 2: from the controversy of last Hour and the economics of
Speaker 2: the nine o'clock hour. And we have a very special
Speaker 2: guest with us tonight. His name is Scott Kerman. Scott
Speaker 2: is a Massachusetts native. He's the humor columnist at the
Speaker 2: Eagle Tribune newspaper. He's the author of six previous books,
Speaker 2: including the World According to Scott series, and he is
Speaker 2: a comedian by practice. He's been on a lot of
Speaker 2: very well known national broadcast Letterman Show and places like that.
Speaker 2: And he has written a book, a book that I
Speaker 2: don't want to call it an authorized biography, but it's
Speaker 2: a biography of sort entitled The Duke Weekly Conversations with
Speaker 2: the Last Honest Politician. And I kind of agree with that,
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, because Mike Ducaccus was a
Speaker 2: very honest guy in my opinion. Scott Kerman, welcome to
Speaker 2: Knight said, how.
Speaker 3: Are you fine?
Speaker 4: Thanks?
Speaker 3: Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've enjoyed the book. Those of us who were
Speaker 2: working in this town or living in this town when
Speaker 2: Mike Decoccus was governor beginning in nineteen seventy four, when
Speaker 2: he was first elected. He was defeated by Ed King
Speaker 2: in a Democratic primary in nineteen seventy eight, but then
Speaker 2: he came back and got re elected in eighty two,
Speaker 2: and elected again in eighty six, ran and lost the
Speaker 2: presidency in eighty eight, and has left the governor's office
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one. So he's thirty five years out
Speaker 2: of public office. But he's still alive and doing well. Sadly,
Speaker 2: his wife passed away just within the last few weeks.
Speaker 2: But you've spent a lot of time with Mike Tecoccus.
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, you met him when you
Speaker 2: were an eleven year old young man, and so you've
Speaker 2: known Mike Tococcus for a long time. This is this
Speaker 2: is a fun book to read, particularly those of us
Speaker 2: who remember him well and agree with his honesty. He
Speaker 2: was almost in some respects too honest a politician. Other
Speaker 2: than the fact that you met him when you were
Speaker 2: eleven years old, and obviously you've admired him greatly. You
Speaker 2: admire him to this day greatly. How did you work
Speaker 2: this out where you could write? I think, you know
Speaker 2: it's the only biog I've ever seen of Michael Michael Docaccus.
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. Yeah. So, twenty years ago I came
Speaker 3: to Brookline and we reconnected, and so I started a
Speaker 3: show called The Grand Studenters Live. It's kind of like
Speaker 3: we talked about the sports tuttle, So in this case
Speaker 3: it was my mailman, my barber, and my two best
Speaker 3: friends who are season ticket holders at the Red Sox.
Speaker 3: So we started this show fifteen years ago and my
Speaker 3: first guest was Bob Bryan of the Boston Globe. And
Speaker 3: my second guest, well I asked him, was Governor Michael Dicaccus.
Speaker 3: I said, have you ever been on a sports show before?
Speaker 3: He says no, But you know I like you, so
Speaker 3: why don't we do it? So he was on our
Speaker 3: show annually for each year, and then Dan about four
Speaker 3: years ago. All of a sudden, you know, Governor Decaucus,
Speaker 3: you can be talking about one subject and he'll just
Speaker 3: ammiliately have a completely separate train of thought. We're talking
Speaker 3: about the Red Sox and how they stink at that moment,
Speaker 3: and he says, Scott, I can't understand how anyone can
Speaker 3: be anything but honest. I was brought up to believe
Speaker 3: that honesty wasn't a choice, it was the way you
Speaker 3: lived your life. You tell the truth. This is non negotiable.
Speaker 3: You do what's right. It's not that hard. I've never
Speaker 3: understood lying. And Dan, all of a sudden, it just
Speaker 3: this light just came above my head and I'd go, Wow,
Speaker 3: there's something here. There's something greater than just the thirteen
Speaker 3: pages in the Wikipedia of Governor Micha Michael Decaccus. So
Speaker 3: next week I spoke to him. I said, can I
Speaker 3: write a book with you? And he said I'd love to,
Speaker 3: but I don't want it to be all about me,
Speaker 3: So I said, okay, I'll make it about me too.
Speaker 3: So it's his words, it's my words the end. And
Speaker 3: the response has been incredible and it's been out a
Speaker 3: few weeks and couldn't be happier with it.
Speaker 2: Well, it's an easy read. It runs about trying to
Speaker 2: just look at the end here about one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty pages or so. There's some pictures, and it does
Speaker 2: touch upon his life and I want to go through
Speaker 2: it because he's a guy who came very close to
Speaker 2: becoming President of the United States in nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2: I will tell you that I was signed to cover
Speaker 2: George Bush on election night in Houston, Texas, and I
Speaker 2: was down there a few days in advance, and there
Speaker 2: was no question that Texas was going to go for
Speaker 2: George Bush. The family deep roots in Texas. Mike Decaccus
Speaker 2: was not a threat to win Texas, although his running
Speaker 2: mate was Lloyd Benson, the Senator from Texas. And I
Speaker 2: remember talking to Lee Atwater the night before. Atwater was
Speaker 2: sort of perceived to be George Bush's henchman. He was
Speaker 2: the guy that played rough politically, and I remember having
Speaker 2: a conversation with Water that night, and the polls suggested
Speaker 2: that Bush was the favorite to win the next day.
Speaker 2: But there were about ten states that were in play.
Speaker 2: Many of the states were sort of Midwestern states, some
Speaker 2: of which went in subsequent elections either to Bill Clinton
Speaker 2: or to President Barack Obama. And if all of those
Speaker 2: states had fallen the right way, you know, Docacas carried
Speaker 2: the states that you would expect Maryland, Massachusetts, most of
Speaker 2: the New England states, New York, California, Washington, and Bush
Speaker 2: cleaned up down south in the Plain States and also
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, and a lot of those states, and
Speaker 2: I don't have the number in front of me, but
Speaker 2: states like Iowa and Minnesota, which eventually became, you know,
Speaker 2: fairly democratic states. They went to Bush. But Atwater was
Speaker 2: not comfortable. He did not sleep well the night before,
Speaker 2: although again Bush did win. And I remember Governor Ducaccas
Speaker 2: was doing this like forty eight or sixty hour marathon.
Speaker 2: He was just flying in a plane, you know, sleeping, catnapping.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, sprinting to the end and hitting
Speaker 2: as many airports as he could with rallies. And I
Speaker 2: thought at the time, hey, this thing might be closer
Speaker 2: than people imagined. And it was closer than people imagined.
Speaker 2: And I hope you can take some consolation in that.
Speaker 2: Have you talked to him about you must, I know
Speaker 2: in the book you talked about the election of eighty eight.
Speaker 2: I mean, there aren't too many people, As you mentioned
Speaker 2: in the book, there's only five living Americans who were
Speaker 2: this party standard bearers who were not elected president. Al
Speaker 2: Gore is still alive. Hillary Clinton was the nominee who lost.
Speaker 2: Mitt Romney is in that very special category. John Kerry
Speaker 2: and Mike Twocaucus.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's the oldest one. Absolutely, it's like the
Speaker 3: time for us to all have breakfast. It's ftgs, you know.
Speaker 3: And yes, remarkable. He had a seventeen point lead for
Speaker 3: people who don't remember or weren't born during that election,
Speaker 3: had a seventeen point lead coming out of the convention.
Speaker 3: So three things happen, and we talked about these three
Speaker 3: things during the course of the book. That kind of
Speaker 3: changed things. And he put it in order, the debate question,
Speaker 3: the second debate in LA, the debate question concerning the
Speaker 3: death penalty, the tank photo, and the Willie Horton at And.
Speaker 2: I think I think Bush was very effective with the
Speaker 2: Boston Harbor cleanup, right, which I think also heard of.
Speaker 2: We're going to get to all of those, I promise,
Speaker 2: but I got to take a commercial break. My guest
Speaker 2: is Scott Kerman. He's written a book called The Duke
Speaker 2: Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. You conducted these conversations,
Speaker 2: was it over a.
Speaker 3: Full year, of course of three plus years at his
Speaker 3: kitchen table.
Speaker 2: Okay, at his kitchen table on Perry Street in Brookline.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to share a memory, ask a question
Speaker 2: about Mike Tocaccus, who was still with us, lost his
Speaker 2: the love of his life, Kitty Tucaccus a few weeks ago. Sadly,
Speaker 2: but he's he's ninety two years old and still going
Speaker 2: strong and as sharp as he ever was mentally. He's
Speaker 2: maintained his his intellect long past the ages of Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan, and Joe Biden. He could if he had
Speaker 2: been elected, he could have handled the office. We'll take
Speaker 2: a break, my guest, Scott Kerman. If you like to
Speaker 2: ask a question, to join the conversation, you're welcome to
Speaker 2: join us. And if you'd like to share a memory
Speaker 2: six one seven ten thirty six months seven nine three
Speaker 2: one ten thirty. I'd like to change it up every
Speaker 2: once in a while here on Night Side. I know
Speaker 2: we had a very hot last hour dealing with Dave
Speaker 2: Paleologus and Poles polling today, but these hours are important
Speaker 2: to me as well I hope they are to you.
Speaker 2: Feel free to join the conversation. If you have a
Speaker 2: memory of reflection, probably most of you at some point
Speaker 2: have met Mike Dukakis. Feel free to share any of
Speaker 2: those stories as well, we'll be back on Nightside right
Speaker 2: after this.
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: My guest to Scott Kerman. He's just written a book,
Speaker 2: The Duke Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. It
Speaker 2: was a little bit of a sense of Tuesdays with
Speaker 2: Maury in here, Mitch Album's very successful book of several
Speaker 2: years ago. Explain to us just the setting every week
Speaker 2: that you would sit with him. Explain to us, paint
Speaker 2: the picture of the location of the conversations that were
Speaker 2: in his kitchen on Perry Street and Brookline, if I'm
Speaker 2: not mistaken.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in this kitchen, just sitting there with him and I.
Speaker 3: You know, Kitty would come down. Kitty was ailing from
Speaker 3: the whole period of time that I was there. Kitty
Speaker 3: was ailing. So she would come down though in her bathrobe,
Speaker 3: and we would talk together and have lots of laughs,
Speaker 3: and then she'd go back upstairs. But it really was
Speaker 3: just him and I, not really anyone else, no distractions,
Speaker 3: and just of course we have a great friendship. But
Speaker 3: as you see the book, as it goes on, the
Speaker 3: friendship gets closer and closer, and then he opens up
Speaker 3: more and more with me. So initially, Dan some of
Speaker 3: the stuff he would say off the record because you
Speaker 3: just used to talking to people like Dan Ray and
Speaker 3: off the record on the record. But then after about
Speaker 3: a few months everything was on the record, and to
Speaker 3: be honest with you, he lets fly and a lot
Speaker 3: of people. And when Michael Decocas doesn't like you, he
Speaker 3: does he can't say your name, He calls you that
Speaker 3: there there was three that there was that guy and
Speaker 3: you can, I guess, I'm pretty easy who that guy is.
Speaker 3: They had a coccadoonal dog and he didn't like him,
Speaker 3: so it was that dog. And then the.
Speaker 2: Third was how did a politician not like his dog?
Speaker 3: He didn't like this dog?
Speaker 2: That was his dog that you're talking about, right, No.
Speaker 3: It was Kitty's dog. It was Kitty's dog.
Speaker 2: Well okay, but come on, it was the dog living
Speaker 2: in the house with him and with Kitty. I know,
Speaker 2: first of all, politicians have to love dogs. So that's okay,
Speaker 2: I'll give him a pass on that. Go ahead.
Speaker 3: What the dog when they gave the dog away? And
Speaker 3: he said he didn't mourn the loss of the dog.
Speaker 3: So it was.
Speaker 2: A dog. But that's okay, go ahead, Scott.
Speaker 5: Well ninety years old. Yeah, it was a little more
Speaker 5: difficult than normal. But and of course he didn't like
Speaker 5: Charlie Baker because of the way he handled the tea.
Speaker 5: And you could be talking.
Speaker 3: About heated gloves and he would mention something about Charlie
Speaker 3: Baker and the tea. So it was kind of that
Speaker 3: openness that that that happened during the course of this
Speaker 3: book that I think people are appreciating.
Speaker 2: No, No, I totally get that. Who who is the
Speaker 2: He didn't like the dog and he didn't like Charlie Baker.
Speaker 3: That guy, which of course is Trump. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: you know Trump. He talks to Trump. Yet I mean yet,
Speaker 3: it's funny.
Speaker 2: It's funny. I got to know Mike Docaccas pretty well.
Speaker 2: I would have assumed that Mike doucaccas, Harvard Law school
Speaker 2: guy Swathmore, probably would have seen in Charlie Baker some
Speaker 2: things that he admired. That's kind of surprises me, because
Speaker 2: Charlie Baker was not a Trump guy. I can see
Speaker 2: Mike not liking Trump. I know that there were other
Speaker 2: Republicans who we talked about who he did not like, Okay,
Speaker 2: but I could see him actually bonding with Baker over
Speaker 2: Baker's independence within you know, the Republican Party. But that's fine, so.
Speaker 3: You can't pay anything. Look, he was it was all
Speaker 3: about the tea when it came to Charlie Baker. He
Speaker 3: never said anything about him personally or any other issue.
Speaker 3: It's his beloved tea. And you know he wants to
Speaker 3: connect North and the South station worse than any human
Speaker 3: being of his planet. But it was the way he
Speaker 3: handled the tea was with how that came out in
Speaker 3: this book.
Speaker 2: So let me ask you that I'm going to ask
Speaker 2: a couple of questions that may or may not be
Speaker 2: in the book, So bear with me. He's the what
Speaker 2: he runs for president in nineteen eighty eight, He's more
Speaker 2: than the governor of Massachusetts. He's more than the Democratic
Speaker 2: nominee for president. He at that point becomes the titular
Speaker 2: leader of the Democratic Party nationally. That's traditionally what happens,
Speaker 2: particularly when you're the non incumbent party. Give us his thoughts,
Speaker 2: if you will, on some of the people who came
Speaker 2: after him. Bill Clinton spoke at the convention that Mike
Speaker 2: Dukaccus was nominated at in Atlanta in nineteen eighty eight
Speaker 2: and Clinton gave one of the longest, most boring speeches
Speaker 2: in the history of any national political convention. I don't
Speaker 2: think that Mike Dukaccus, probably down deep, would have liked
Speaker 2: a Bill Clinton. I could be wrong, but I'd love
Speaker 2: to know.
Speaker 6: You know, no, well, he liked him.
Speaker 3: They were great friends. Yeah, they were great friends. It's interesting.
Speaker 3: First of all, he beats the Coccus beat some heavyweights
Speaker 3: for the Democratic nomination, Joe Biden or Jesse Jackson, dip
Speaker 3: Dick Geppart, and Gary Hart and Paul Simon from Illinois.
Speaker 3: So he beats heavyweights, the guys who ended up, of course,
Speaker 3: one being president, one being vice president, and almost president.
Speaker 3: So that in itself is an incredible accomplishment. So I
Speaker 3: asked him, so, you're absolutely what you said is correct.
Speaker 3: In so Clinton is the keynote speaker in eighty eight,
Speaker 3: do you have any conversation with Clinton about being your
Speaker 3: running mate? And he says no, I never considered it.
Speaker 3: So I thought, wow, that's kind of strange because all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, four years later, this guy's going to
Speaker 3: be president of the United States, but yet he wasn't
Speaker 3: even he didn't even get an interview.
Speaker 2: But to this, remember this. Their careers were very parallel
Speaker 2: in some regard. Obviously, Clinton's a little younger most I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, he's he's about twelve years younger or so,
Speaker 2: maybe fourteen years younger than Docuccus. But they're both governors,
Speaker 2: and they're both governors who tasted the sting of defeat.
Speaker 2: Clinton was beaten in nineteen eighty. Ducaccus was beaten by
Speaker 2: Ed King in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3: The reason she's never got over just so you know,
Speaker 3: he's never got over there.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was his own party that turned him away.
Speaker 2: For Ed King, I thought he might have looked at
Speaker 2: Clinton a little differently. Bill Clinton was the antithesis of
Speaker 2: Mike Ducaccus in the sense that Bill Clinton worked with
Speaker 2: the Republicans once he knew that he had problems politically,
Speaker 2: he worked with Newt Gingrich Okay. Also on a personal life,
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's personal behavior in the White House, none of
Speaker 2: that ever would have happened if Mike Ducaccus had been
Speaker 2: President of the United States. He was a husband of
Speaker 2: Kitty Ducaccas, first, last, and always. He was a devoted
Speaker 2: husband of devoted dad. And I'm surprised that he although
Speaker 2: he might have admired Clinton's success in ninety two and
Speaker 2: the fact that he was a Democrat, and maybe Ducaccus
Speaker 2: thinks that that he was kind of the he was
Speaker 2: the pathfinder, if you will, for Bill Clinton. Here you
Speaker 2: had a governor from from the south Arkansas that was
Speaker 2: able to break through and get elected and beat the
Speaker 2: same guy that he lost to. I can understand where
Speaker 2: he might admire that, but I just don't understand the
Speaker 2: sort of the behavior of Clinton. I mean, Clinton was
Speaker 2: kind of a wild man. Mike Ducaccus was not a wild.
Speaker 3: Man, and complete opposite. Yeah, but they both were part
Speaker 3: of the National Governors Association, to which you know Mike
Speaker 3: Dicacus led, so they were they worked together and they
Speaker 3: were very friendly. So they did have a good relationship.
Speaker 3: And yes, he has great respect for Clinton, of the
Speaker 3: moral side, not so much of course.
Speaker 2: What about what did what did he think of I
Speaker 2: could see that he would admire then Senator Obama, young
Speaker 2: senator from Illinois, who wild the convention here in Boston
Speaker 2: in two thousand and four. Did what did Docaccus think
Speaker 2: of Hillary Clinton? I think he would have liked Hillary
Speaker 2: Clinton more than he liked her husband, because she held
Speaker 2: that relationship together. And she also was not a Democrat
Speaker 2: who was willing to compromise her positions. She's much more
Speaker 2: similar to Ducaccus philosophically than he was to her husband
Speaker 2: explained that once a bit.
Speaker 3: Did he Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, you nailed it, Dan, Absolutely,
Speaker 3: they both would have been I mean working presidents, you know.
Speaker 3: And and he had great respects for Hillary. But I
Speaker 3: did have, you know, to mention this in the book.
Speaker 3: I said, well, did Hillary reach out to you when
Speaker 3: she was running for president? And he said, no, she
Speaker 3: did not. And I said, were you disappointed by that?
Speaker 3: He said, you know, and and the caucuses such classy
Speaker 3: and respectful way. It would have been nice to have
Speaker 3: received a call from her. And you know, so there
Speaker 3: are certain parts and you know, when you talk about
Speaker 3: it about being the leader of the.
Speaker 2: Book, Mike Mike Docaucus, and I hope he's not listening
Speaker 2: to Hillary Clinton. He was yesterday's news.
Speaker 3: Well, but you know he said this, Well, where if
Speaker 3: I was very interesting Dan, and you just you've had
Speaker 3: brought that you had just brought this up. I said,
Speaker 3: were you the leader of the party the day after
Speaker 3: the election, after the presidential election, were you still the
Speaker 3: leader of the party. And he said, no, that's it.
Speaker 3: I lost. No one cares you move on. And I
Speaker 3: thought that was very interesting. And you know we're seeing
Speaker 3: that in the same case with Kamala Harris. You know,
Speaker 3: she's not the leader of the party anymore. You know,
Speaker 3: I don't know who is.
Speaker 2: But Roney mid Romney lost. He wasn't the leader of
Speaker 2: the party. Al Gore lost, John Carry lost, John Kerry
Speaker 2: wasn't the leader of the party. He won. Onto different
Speaker 2: and other things. Okay, we got to take a break.
Speaker 2: We're at the newscast. I want to talk about the
Speaker 2: Willie Brown case, the Willy Horton case, excuse me, the
Speaker 2: Willie Horton case, which I think heard him. You're familiar
Speaker 2: with that case, of course, the question about capital punishment,
Speaker 2: his day in the tank. This is a guy who
Speaker 2: actually served in the military on the front lines in Korea,
Speaker 2: not in a war time, but in a war zone,
Speaker 2: and yet he was pillared, battered from pillar to post
Speaker 2: for the ride in the tank. So we got a
Speaker 2: bunch of things to talk about. I'm hoping my audience
Speaker 2: might have some interest in this topic as well. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten,
Speaker 2: thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Scott
Speaker 2: sent me this book, which I have read most of. Uh.
Speaker 2: It's a great read for those of us who are
Speaker 2: political junkies and history buffs. We will be back with
Speaker 2: my guest, Scott Kerman, who himself has a very interesting career,
Speaker 2: both as a humor columnist at the Eagle Tribune newspaper,
Speaker 2: but as someone who met Mike Ducaccus at the age
Speaker 2: of eleven on when Mikedecaccus was a governor back in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, so he's known him a long time.
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time with Governor Decacus. Always
Speaker 2: enjoyed my time with him. Always accessible, always very honest,
Speaker 2: not someone who is a games player at all, and
Speaker 2: that probably might have hurt him, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2: We'll be back on Nightside talking uh the presidential candidacy
Speaker 2: and the career of Michael Stanley Ducaucus. Back on Nightside
Speaker 2: right after this. Light these lines up, folks. I'm disappointed
Speaker 2: that no one wants to join this conversation. I love
Speaker 2: this topic. I hope some of you do as well.
Speaker 2: We're back after this.
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan ray On.
Speaker 2: Boston's News radio, where this is Scott Scott Kerman. He's
Speaker 2: written a book called The Duke Weekly Conversations with the
Speaker 2: Last Honest Politician. I think it's a great title. These
Speaker 2: these conversations were in Governor Ducaucus's kitchen on Perry Street,
Speaker 2: in small front lawn. I remember the week that he
Speaker 2: was nominated and we were trying to figure out who's
Speaker 2: going to pick his vice president. I was over on
Speaker 2: Perry Street and he's out there mowing his lawn with
Speaker 2: a hand held lawnmower, not a gas powered lawnmower, one
Speaker 2: of the old lawnmowers, all push law and more. Okay,
Speaker 2: let's talk about that question that was asked of him
Speaker 2: back in nineteen eighty eight about if his wife was
Speaker 2: a really nasty question by Bernard Shaw. This was the
Speaker 2: question at a presidential debate, if your wife was raped
Speaker 2: and murdered, would you still oppose the death penalty?
Speaker 3: That was essentially a question, right, Yeah, that's exactly what
Speaker 3: it was.
Speaker 2: Which was what he believed. But characteristically he doesn't regret
Speaker 2: the honest answer.
Speaker 3: Right, he regrets it. I mean, you've got the answering it.
Speaker 3: First of all, Kitty was in the front row when
Speaker 3: he said, when Shaw asked, if Katy Decarcus is raped
Speaker 3: and murdered, would you favor and a real, irrevocable death
Speaker 3: penalty for her killer? First question out of the gate, and
Speaker 3: he goes no, And I think, you know I opposed
Speaker 3: the death penalty during all my life. That was Look,
Speaker 3: he was in a difficult situation, Dan. If he answers
Speaker 3: the question straight up like he did, he's going to
Speaker 3: look insensitive to his wife's imaginary plight, right if he
Speaker 3: reversed his course and says, oh, you know, if you're
Speaker 3: talking about my wife, of course, you know I believe
Speaker 3: in the death penalty, you know. But so he was
Speaker 3: in a difficult situation. I had a problem. I think
Speaker 3: I had a problem with the question more than he does.
Speaker 3: And I just thought, you know, it was improper the
Speaker 3: way he worded it. And they had practiced the debate
Speaker 3: question but the death penalty, but they should didn't practice
Speaker 3: that type of question. And he regrets it. But as
Speaker 3: you see, as the book goes on, he comes to
Speaker 3: grips with that the answer was the improper answer, and
Speaker 3: then I don't want to, you know, ruin it for you.
Speaker 3: But he answers the question the way he thinks he
Speaker 3: should have answered it, so he kind.
Speaker 2: Of that part of the book. I'll look full it
Speaker 2: to it. I think it was one of those that
Speaker 2: was the question struck me as the uh, when did
Speaker 2: you stop beating your wife question? It's like, if you
Speaker 2: accept the premise of the question, no matter how you
Speaker 2: answer that question, it's it's it's an improper question in
Speaker 2: my opinion, although as a journalist it was it was
Speaker 2: an interesting question. I think there's some suspicion that that
Speaker 2: question might have been planted by the Bushmen.
Speaker 3: I have a suspicion absolutely it had let waters uh
Speaker 3: fingerprints all over not show didn't ask any questions to H. W.
Speaker 3: Bush about Barbara bus Bush's imaginary uh situation where she's uh,
Speaker 3: you know, criminalized, so victimiz.
Speaker 2: It's a question that I think was just way out
Speaker 2: of bouts. Let's get to some phone calls here as well,
Speaker 2: and we'll continue to talk about some of the sillient
Speaker 2: points of the book. Let's go to kenon Waltham, Ken
Speaker 2: next on Nice I. First, this are with Scott Kerman.
Speaker 3: Go right ahead, Hi, Dan, Scott.
Speaker 7: You know one thing about the Lost nineteen eighty eight campaign,
Speaker 7: I thought generated one of the funniest lines I ever heard.
Speaker 7: In nineteen ninety two, when Paul Fungus announced his run
Speaker 7: for the presidency, he said I'm not running because I'm
Speaker 7: a Greek Liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. I thought it was
Speaker 7: a great line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 2: Massachusetts politicians haven't had a lot of success, whether they're
Speaker 2: Republicans or Democrats. Mitt Romney, Ted Kennedy, Mike Ducacas, Paul
Speaker 2: Saugust Berry.
Speaker 7: We'll get to the finals, but they can't bring home
Speaker 7: the championship.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I didn't meet Michael Decaccas once, and if we have time,
Speaker 7: I can tell you about that. But what I really
Speaker 7: wanted to ask either one of you is one thing
Speaker 7: I never understood in nineteen eighty eight is what the
Speaker 7: problem was that Mike Ducaccus had with Evelyn Murphy and
Speaker 7: his lieutenant governor. And I really thought the state suffered
Speaker 7: with Ducaccus, you know, campaigning for president and not giving
Speaker 7: the reins up, at least in an acting sense to
Speaker 7: Evelyn Murphy.
Speaker 2: I think he had a problem. We'll see what Scott says.
Speaker 2: I don't think Governor Ducaccus had a problem with it.
Speaker 2: But I think Governor Ducaccus wanted to prove and I
Speaker 2: think he was capable of continuing to discharge his obligations
Speaker 2: as governor while a candidate for the White House. I
Speaker 2: think that he would have perceived that as an acknowledgment
Speaker 2: and an admission that he was not everything that he
Speaker 2: believed he was.
Speaker 6: Go ahead, Scott, Yeah, again, you know, I didn't mention
Speaker 6: that in the book, But I don't think he was
Speaker 6: a big fan of hers, and I don't think that
Speaker 6: he completely trusted her when he was outside the state
Speaker 6: what she might do.
Speaker 3: Again, this is just a conversations I've had with him.
Speaker 3: So and there were times where they did not include
Speaker 3: her in meetings. So you figured that out. So yeah,
Speaker 3: and then that might have hurt him as far as
Speaker 3: the presidential election, where he stayed in the state and
Speaker 3: was working in the state when he should have been,
Speaker 3: you know, campaigning across the country. And I think there
Speaker 3: may be an it may have been. Of course, we're
Speaker 3: talking about a long period of time and Evelyn Murphy.
Speaker 3: That may have been because of her.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I covered it at the time. I
Speaker 2: didn't pick up any distrust. Ken. It's interesting. You're a
Speaker 2: pretty good observer. I didn't realize that there was any distrust.
Speaker 2: I felt that Murphy and Ducacus were pretty close philosophically.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can see where I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: he was stung by the ed King defeat. I don't
Speaker 2: think Murphy was an ed King democrat. To the best
Speaker 2: of my knowledge, I thought she was a micrococcus democrat.
Speaker 2: Did I misperceive that? Ken?
Speaker 7: Uh? No, I don't think you did, but they definitely.
Speaker 7: My recollection is that he kind of, like what Scott said,
Speaker 7: wouldn't invite her to meetings. There was definitely distance between
Speaker 7: them for whatever the reason was, and it didn't it
Speaker 7: didn't seem to be political ideology, you know, or something.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, good enough, great question, Ken, you stumped us.
Speaker 2: Let's keep rolling here, go to thanks again.
Speaker 7: I thought she gave a great enter actually, that he
Speaker 7: wouldn't want to give up the reins and it might
Speaker 7: hurt his presidency, So you think.
Speaker 2: That was it. I think that he prided himself on that.
Speaker 2: You know, he was in great shape physically. I remember
Speaker 2: talking to him. He used to be a runner and
Speaker 2: he stopped running, and I was a runner at the time,
Speaker 2: believe it or not. And he cautioned me. We would
Speaker 2: talk personally and it'd say, you know, stop running, just
Speaker 2: walk or whatever. Now, as it turns out, I do
Speaker 2: an elliptical, and whenever you tell me get an olympical,
Speaker 2: I think of Mike Tucaucus because you know, you don't
Speaker 2: have the impact of running. But I was. I was
Speaker 2: out running, you know, three four five miles every day
Speaker 2: back in the time. And he he was a he
Speaker 2: was a power walker at that point, and he was
Speaker 2: only he was in his mid fifties in eighty eight.
Speaker 2: He was a power walker and he was damn proud.
Speaker 3: Remember he picks up litter. He picks up litter while
Speaker 3: he's walking.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no waste, no waste of effort there. Hey, Ken,
Speaker 2: thank you much. You got to keep running here because
Speaker 2: they got a break coming up. Okay, thanks Bell, appreciate
Speaker 2: the call.
Speaker 7: Appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Ken, take a break, coming right back on
Speaker 2: night Side. Ken is a regular listener and a contributor
Speaker 2: to night Side with Scott Kermin The Duke Weekly Conversations
Speaker 2: with the Last Honest Politician. I think that's an accurate title.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, our phone lines are blown up here,
Speaker 2: So we got a bunch of calls to try to
Speaker 2: get to everyone. I'm going to try to be get
Speaker 2: to everyone in everyone in here, stay with us. Back
Speaker 2: on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w BZ,
Speaker 1: Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2: Okay, back to the phones we go. We're going to
Speaker 2: try to get everybody in. My guest is Scott Kerman.
Speaker 2: He's written a book called The Duke, That being Michael Ducaccus,
Speaker 2: former Governor of Massachusetts nineteen eighty eight presidential nominee the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party. Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. Eileen.
Speaker 2: We're getting a little tight on time, but thank you
Speaker 2: for calling in. You were next on Nightside. Go right ahead.
Speaker 4: Well, I met Mike Ducaccus when we lived in Brookline
Speaker 4: and it was nineteen sixty two. I don't know when
Speaker 4: he was running. Yeah, our first baby had just been born,
Speaker 4: and I remember he climbed up to the third floor
Speaker 4: of our apartment in Brookline and had a very very
Speaker 4: interesting discussion with my husband, who was a refugee from
Speaker 4: East Germany and at that time an instructor at Harvard.
Speaker 4: But I just remember that visit and I was dealing
Speaker 4: with a slightly fretful baby that I remember the.
Speaker 2: Well, that was when he was he was running for
Speaker 2: state representative, I assume.
Speaker 3: Correct, exactly. Yeah, yeah, he was in that between sixty
Speaker 3: two and seventy. He was in the outse of rep.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, that's a great memory. That's you never would
Speaker 2: have thought that that guy that had walked up to
Speaker 2: the two flights of stairs so the third floor would
Speaker 2: be the Democratic presidential nominee. What was you know? Those
Speaker 2: that twenty six years later?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well it was a it was a very
Speaker 4: interesting He was so interested in my husband's experiences growing
Speaker 4: up in East Germany, and I thought that was uh,
Speaker 4: that was impressive.
Speaker 2: Real well, that that's Mike Ducaccus. Thanks, thanks, I Leen
Speaker 2: and got to keep rolling here. By the way, I
Speaker 2: think it's important to mention that I know Ducaccas was.
Speaker 2: Does he regret the the photograph in the tank? Be
Speaker 2: quick for me on this one, Scott.
Speaker 3: He does, but he doesn't really understand all, you know,
Speaker 3: the all the attention it's gotten over the years, So
Speaker 3: he does, yes, absolutely regrets it.
Speaker 2: Well, you have a great picture in the in the
Speaker 2: book of him standing on a tank. Uh, in in Korea,
Speaker 2: South Korea, when he was, you know, on close, if
Speaker 2: not in close to the d m Z as an
Speaker 2: active duty US Army member of the US Army. So
Speaker 2: this was a guy. Now he's also running against a
Speaker 2: guy who had his plane shot down and was pulled
Speaker 2: out of the drink. And they have to have that videotape.
Speaker 2: So even though Mike Ducaccus serves his time on the
Speaker 2: front lines in Korea, it's tough to beat, you know,
Speaker 2: George Bush's picture of him being pulled onto that boat
Speaker 2: out of the water.
Speaker 3: That's a tough one.
Speaker 2: Roland. You're going to go to Neil in Watertown. Neil,
Speaker 2: You're next on Nightsager, right ahead.
Speaker 8: I have two questions, and since we're short on time,
Speaker 8: maybe you could just say yes or no. Regarding my memory,
Speaker 8: I remember that he wouldn't say I'm a liberal. He
Speaker 8: just he was afraid maybe and I'm maybe afraid to
Speaker 8: say politically. And then the last week he said, yes,
Speaker 8: I'm a liberal in the sense of Harry Truman, and
Speaker 8: he surged a little bit because of that. And just
Speaker 8: I remember at the time liberal all of a sudden
Speaker 8: became a dirty ward or something that this.
Speaker 2: Was during the Reagan presidency that he was running and
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan was a very popular president. I don't ever
Speaker 2: remember him, but I think Neil's recollection might be better.
Speaker 2: I don't remember him refusing to identify as a liberal.
Speaker 2: I don't think that would be the sort of game
Speaker 2: he would play. Scott Well, yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean mentioned that. He's when I asked him, who
Speaker 3: is he running against Reagan? Or Bush said I was
Speaker 3: running against Reagan. So I thought it was very interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean he's never shied away from being liberal. No,
Speaker 3: absolutely not. I mean you know, when when you think
Speaker 3: Michael Decacus, you think of the liberal.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 8: But did let Water apologized what he did to the caucus?
Speaker 3: Did I mentioned that? Yeah? I mentioned that he got
Speaker 3: sick and then on his literally on his death that
Speaker 3: he called up Governor Dacacus and he apologized.
Speaker 2: What did he apologize for.
Speaker 8: The dirty tricks?
Speaker 3: Just Willie Orton basically that, yeah, yeah, absolutely, just all
Speaker 3: of that, you know, just the way things went played out.
Speaker 3: And again, the Caucus has no ill feeling toward at Water.
Speaker 2: What does that make true? And that makes me respect Adwater?
Speaker 2: I was unaware of that. That makes me respect Adwater
Speaker 2: a little bit, but because back in those days, I mean,
Speaker 2: dirty tricks were were part of the business. I remember
Speaker 2: when Nixon was running, I think it was in sixty eight.
Speaker 2: His campaign slogan was Nixon's the One. And there was
Speaker 2: a guy named Dick Tuck who was the ultimate dirty trickster.
Speaker 2: He got about fifty pregnant women, most of whom, if
Speaker 2: not all, were black, to parade around the convention Center
Speaker 2: in Miami. They were all like seven, eight, nine months
Speaker 2: pregnant with Nixon's the one sides.
Speaker 3: Yes, thanks very all right, thanks.
Speaker 2: Thanks Neil, appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Good good night.
Speaker 2: I got to get two more in here for you
Speaker 2: at least.
Speaker 3: Okay, I just asked the governor if the Atwater had been,
Speaker 3: you know, running your campaign, and then he finished my sentence,
Speaker 3: what I have won? He said, Probably.
Speaker 2: I would have expected for him to say I wouldn't
Speaker 2: want I wouldn't have wanted him to be running. But
Speaker 2: that's okay, Jackie Dorchester, Jack, next time you're in, Jack,
Speaker 2: you're you're on with my guest, Scott K. Kerman.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Jack, Okay.
Speaker 9: Well, first off, I'm hoping you'll get tacked to the
Speaker 9: Perkins School. So you can put this on on boys.
Speaker 2: Well, they can pull it down. They just have to
Speaker 2: go to Nightside and demand and that's available for everyone,
Speaker 2: and anyone at the Perkins School that's interested can pull
Speaker 2: it down. Sometime tomorrow we.
Speaker 9: Put it on. Putting on talking books, you know that's
Speaker 9: up to you. I knew Mike the Cactus from when
Speaker 9: he ran uh for Little Tetor governor under Kevin White,
Speaker 9: which led to us running for governor and yep four
Speaker 9: and that worked on all his campaigns.
Speaker 2: Well, good, appreciate it. Appreciate you taking the time to call.
Speaker 2: Do you have a question for Scott Jack? We only
Speaker 2: have about a in it left.
Speaker 9: Yeah. Well, like I said, I'm just hoping it would say, uh.
Speaker 2: Okay, we got that, we got that noted, and may
Speaker 2: I hope you can turn this into a talking book
Speaker 2: I think is what Jack is suggesting. Thanks to Thank
Speaker 2: you very much, Jack, appreciate it. I'm gonna get David
Speaker 2: from Jamaica plane in. David, I can give you like
Speaker 2: twenty seconds, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I was just curious if Ducacas passed.
Speaker 1: That rubicon of you called him honest.
Speaker 3: I believe he was just more truthful. Is there a
Speaker 3: distinction between the two.
Speaker 2: I think that your answer go ahead, Okay, I think
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think both fine. And you know it's funny,
Speaker 3: he said. You know, Scott, I'm not the last honest politician.
Speaker 3: I said. It's a metaphor, but it feels like it.
Speaker 2: Okay. I think we're done here. We're almost out of time,
Speaker 2: right okay, Uh, Scott. People can get this book The
Speaker 2: Duke on Amazon. Thank you so much. I got to run.
Speaker 2: We're out of time. Thank you very much. We ran
Speaker 2: it up to the last minute. All dogs, all cats,
Speaker 2: all pets go to heaven. That's why Pal Charlie Rails,
Speaker 2: who passed fifteen years ago in Fiby. That's why your
Speaker 2: pets are a past. They love you and you love them.
Speaker 2: You'll see them again, see again tomorrow. Night everyone, Thanks
Speaker 2: Gott Kerman. The Duke on Amazon dot com. Good night everyone,