Speaker 1: Now one of your pudding.
Speaker 2: I got a string going on here, something just because
Speaker 2: my dog. Something killed your dog. My dog.
Speaker 1: We're flying through the air over the tree. I don't
Speaker 1: know how it did it, Okay, damn, I'm really confused.
Speaker 2: All I saw was my dog coming over the fence
Speaker 2: and he was dead. And once you hit the.
Speaker 3: Ground like, I didn't see any cars.
Speaker 2: All I saw was my dog coming over the fence.
Speaker 2: Sat what are you putting? We got some wonder or
Speaker 2: something crawling around out here? Did you see what it was?
Speaker 3: Or was it was?
Speaker 2: Standing enough? I'm out here looking through the window now
Speaker 2: and I don't see anything. I don't want to go outside.
Speaker 2: Jesus quice, you better Hello, hit the boddy out here,
Speaker 2: quinn on out there.
Speaker 1: I thought of a bit just about taking forty nine.
Speaker 2: I don't know easy ann ount there. Yeah, I'm buking right.
Speaker 1: Hey, all right, folks on, welcome our guest to the show.
Speaker 1: It is Richard HadAM, screenwriter and podcast extraordinary. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show, sir.
Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going? Man?
Speaker 1: I am good. It is so good to have you
Speaker 1: on the show. We met back in September up at
Speaker 1: the Mothman Festival in Point Pleasant, West Virginia. It was
Speaker 1: great to see you and your lovely wife there. You
Speaker 1: were a featured speaker at that event, and we came through,
Speaker 1: bought a couple of things from you, and got to
Speaker 1: hang out with you lo and behold, here you are
Speaker 1: about a month later on the show. It is great
Speaker 1: to have you here. So let's jump right into it.
Speaker 1: I was unaware that was your first time attending that
Speaker 1: festival in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, so I think.
Speaker 2: We should start there.
Speaker 1: How did that come about and how did you end
Speaker 1: up there at the same time we were there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was definitely my first time. In fact, I'm
Speaker 2: looking at the date right now, it was a month
Speaker 2: ago today and it feels like it was ten years
Speaker 2: ago already, doesn't It definitely does, Okay, So here's how
Speaker 2: it happened, I think, and really this shouldn't be in question.
Speaker 2: It was only six months ago when this whole thing started.
Speaker 2: But I was on a podcast called High Strangeness and
Speaker 2: Steve Ward is one of the hosts. And Steve Ward
Speaker 2: is a guy who I believe lived in Illinois and
Speaker 2: then moved to Point Pleasant because of his interest in
Speaker 2: the area and in the Mothman legend. He's quite schooled
Speaker 2: up on the history of that and John Keel and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, so he reached out to me. I
Speaker 2: did his podcast and it was in and around the
Speaker 2: time I did that podcast, either on the podcast or
Speaker 2: the next day or something, he was like, Hey, I'm
Speaker 2: right here in Point Pleasant. I work with Jeff Walmsley,
Speaker 2: who runs and created the Mothman Museum and he also
Speaker 2: created the Mothman Festival. Do you want me to get
Speaker 2: in touch with him and maybe you show up as
Speaker 2: a guest in September. And it was the first time
Speaker 2: that anyone from the festival itself had reached out. And
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, yeah, definitely. And I'd always
Speaker 2: wanted to go. It had always been floating out there,
Speaker 2: but because of school schedules and kids going back to
Speaker 2: school in September and usually I'm working on a TV show,
Speaker 2: September is a busy month. It just never seemed to
Speaker 2: work out or be a super convenient time. But not
Speaker 2: currently working on a TV show, and my youngest son
Speaker 2: just graduated high school, so suddenly it was like, wait,
Speaker 2: a second, September is totally fine. So on the spot,
Speaker 2: I was like yes, I'll do it. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to commit six months ahead of time. And then I
Speaker 2: creeped into my wife's office and said, Honey, is it
Speaker 2: okay if we go to the Mothman Festival in September?
Speaker 2: And she's yes, it is, so yay, let's do it.
Speaker 2: And then we immediately set up a whole like we're
Speaker 2: going there, let's do some live shows of the podcast.
Speaker 2: So we made this whole plan. But yes, that is
Speaker 2: how I ended up for the first time ever at
Speaker 2: the Mothmad Festival.
Speaker 1: I find that strange because people who may not be
Speaker 1: familiar with you and know your backstory. You wrote the
Speaker 1: screenplay for the Mothman Prophecies back in the late nineties
Speaker 1: early two thousands, So I guess the first question here
Speaker 1: for me in relation to that is what initially drew
Speaker 1: you to that story of Mothman. Was it the mystery?
Speaker 1: Was it the folklore, or was it the psychological tension
Speaker 1: between belief and disbelief? What was it that drew you
Speaker 1: to that story? That was the impetus for you to
Speaker 1: write the screenplay?
Speaker 2: It was all of that. Everything you just said played
Speaker 2: a role. I think the book was probably one of
Speaker 2: the first books I ever read that dealt with the supernatural,
Speaker 2: where the person writing the book suddenly becomes central to
Speaker 2: the events that are happening. I don't think I'd never
Speaker 2: read anything like that. It's like when I was really
Speaker 2: young and I read the Amityville Horror, that was like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's about these people, but the author was the author,
Speaker 2: and the people were the people. And usually when you
Speaker 2: read books like this, Guy Lyon Playfair's book This House
Speaker 2: Is Haunted, which is about the Enfield Poltergeist, he was there.
Speaker 2: He was in the house as things were happening, but
Speaker 2: the point of view of the book was very much
Speaker 2: I'm writing about I am observing the things that are happening,
Speaker 2: and I'm just trying to report on them. What was
Speaker 2: so interesting about John Keel's book was how real the
Speaker 2: parent Noia became because it was as he was investigating
Speaker 2: it really did that. He started getting weird phone calls,
Speaker 2: and then other people would come to him and say, oh,
Speaker 2: I got your call last night. I'm sorry I wasn't
Speaker 2: able to call you back. I never called you, so
Speaker 2: weird things start happening to him. And not only that,
Speaker 2: but he starts doing things like as he's observing lights
Speaker 2: that are appearing above the Ohio River. He's taking his
Speaker 2: flashlight and he starts flashing Morse code up into the sky,
Speaker 2: just to not really fuck with the UFOs, but to
Speaker 2: just see what happens, and the lights would flash back,
Speaker 2: and so he began interacting with the phenomenon, and then
Speaker 2: the phenomenon began interacting with him more and more, to
Speaker 2: the point where he really did feel like he was
Speaker 2: going crazy, which I just thought was because for me
Speaker 2: that was like, this is the story of a person
Speaker 2: interacting with the supernatural to the nth degree. It's really
Speaker 2: having an effect on his life. And I found that
Speaker 2: so fascinating. I was like, Okay, this is a main
Speaker 2: character for a movie, and this is a worthwhile journey
Speaker 2: to go on because it's dangerous, and it's dangerous psychologically
Speaker 2: and emotionally. Not just ooh, it's dangerous because I'm going
Speaker 2: to go suddenly see Bigfoot or fight Mothman or something
Speaker 2: like that. It's no. When you go down these roads
Speaker 2: and you look in the darkness, it really does look back.
Speaker 2: And that's so much about what the Mothmant prophecies is about.
Speaker 2: And that was to me the most interesting part. So
Speaker 2: once I became that hooked, it was just a matter
Speaker 2: of Okay, I want to do this, and I just
Speaker 2: got to figure out how to make it a story
Speaker 2: that anyone else on earth will understand.
Speaker 1: One question that stuck out to me after watching the
Speaker 1: film myself multiple times is it is such a balance
Speaker 1: between fact and fiction. It's a balance between being respectful
Speaker 1: of what happened there the Silver Bridge collapse, forty six
Speaker 1: people I think it was perished during that horrible event.
Speaker 1: While you were writing the screenplay, how did you approach
Speaker 1: that balance of the fact and the fiction and being
Speaker 1: respectful of the people that still lived in this area
Speaker 1: at the time after this bridge collapse and the people
Speaker 1: who perished there.
Speaker 2: It happened in two parts. There's an episode of my
Speaker 2: podcast where I talk a little bit about what the
Speaker 2: experience was like in the early stages of trying to
Speaker 2: write the screenplay, and I was having a real hard
Speaker 2: time getting into it and finding my way. The first
Speaker 2: thing I had to get past was I was so
Speaker 2: enamored with John Keel, and I had gotten personally in
Speaker 2: touch with him during the process of securing the rights
Speaker 2: and purchasing an option on the book. This is back
Speaker 2: in ninety six ninety seven, so we were mailing letters
Speaker 2: back and forth. There wasn't even email, not that John
Speaker 2: Keel was using, and we were literally handwriting letters to
Speaker 2: each other, and we would talk on the phone. And
Speaker 2: I was so enamored with him and so impressed with
Speaker 2: him and with his philosophies, which I thought were so
Speaker 2: fascinating and weren't really well known, at least as far
Speaker 2: as I knew at the time. No one was talking
Speaker 2: about John Keel, so I really wanted to get his
Speaker 2: ideas out there. So weirdly, the first hurdle I had
Speaker 2: to get over was there's no way for me to
Speaker 2: tell his story. He's still alive, he lived his story,
Speaker 2: and if I'm trying to get every moment of his
Speaker 2: investigation in the movie in chronological order, I'm dead. It's impossible.
Speaker 2: There's just too much. So I had to give myself
Speaker 2: permission to back off from that and just go, okay,
Speaker 2: just tell the emotional experience. The thing that was interesting
Speaker 2: to me beyond all the things that happened in the book,
Speaker 2: which are fascinating, but what was most fascinating to me
Speaker 2: was his emotional journey. So I'm like that's all I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do. I'm just going to boil it down to
Speaker 2: that and really focus on that, which meant I lost
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the book. I'm like, I can't be
Speaker 2: doing Men in Black. I can't do every single thing
Speaker 2: that happens to him. It's just got to be about
Speaker 2: a guy, and it can't be him. The character can't
Speaker 2: be called John Keel. It's just got to be a
Speaker 2: guy who goes to Point Pleasant there's some strange things happening,
Speaker 2: and then those things begin to focus on him, and
Speaker 2: that's it. And it's got to resonate emotionally. So he's
Speaker 2: got to be in a very emotionally vulnerable and open
Speaker 2: place when he goes, so that this isn't just a
Speaker 2: story for a book or a newspaper. It's got to
Speaker 2: mean something to him. And then for that to be real,
Speaker 2: it's okay, then he's just experienced a because that's when
Speaker 2: you know, all the great movies and all the great
Speaker 2: stories are you know about someone you know in the
Speaker 2: aftermath of a death of a family member or a spouse,
Speaker 2: they go on a spiritual journey because that's when those
Speaker 2: questions are ever present. And then once I was doing that,
Speaker 2: I realized, then this really isn't going to be a
Speaker 2: docudrama about what happened in Point Pleasant. It's not going
Speaker 2: to take place in the sixties. It's going to take
Speaker 2: place at that point modern day, which was late nineties,
Speaker 2: early two thousands, And it's not going to be Drawn
Speaker 2: Keel and it's John Keel was never married, but this
Speaker 2: character is. And then once I realized I was using
Speaker 2: it as a jumping off point, but I wasn't going
Speaker 2: to try to be faithful to all the events. I
Speaker 2: realized that the more I changed it, the better it was,
Speaker 2: because I would make it more and more clear that
Speaker 2: I was not trying to tell the specific story of
Speaker 2: that collapse. Even though it was Point Pleasant and it
Speaker 2: was the Silver Bridge and all that stuff, all those
Speaker 2: things are the same. I purposely didn't make it forty
Speaker 2: six people. I purposely didn't make it happen on December fifteenth.
Speaker 2: It was on Christmas Eve. I was trying to change
Speaker 2: enough obvious things that I hoped that anyone who lived
Speaker 2: there and lived through the tragedy would not feel that, Oh,
Speaker 2: here's a movie purporting to tell the true story, and
Speaker 2: they're getting everything wrong. It was like, it's based on
Speaker 2: a true story, but this is not a docudrama. And
Speaker 2: so I was like trying to keep things at arms
Speaker 2: distance in terms of actual facts, actual names, and focus
Speaker 2: more on just the emotions that he was experiencing. And
Speaker 2: I just keep it like that. And so in that way,
Speaker 2: I felt a little estranged from point pleasant, like I
Speaker 2: didn't go there to do research because I'm like, that
Speaker 2: would be disingenuous, because I'm not honestly trying to talk
Speaker 2: to the people and tell their story. That's another kind
Speaker 2: of writing that other people have done and will do,
Speaker 2: and so I should keep my distance. And I think
Speaker 2: emotionally I felt that way for a long time. And
Speaker 2: it's been twenty eight years since I wrote it, in
Speaker 2: twenty something years since the movie came out, and since
Speaker 2: no one has really said that movie ruined our town
Speaker 2: and that movie was a disgrace and hurt people, and
Speaker 2: no one said that. No one certainly said that to me,
Speaker 2: And in fact, what it seemed like was that in
Speaker 2: some weird way, maybe it helped because now there's a
Speaker 2: festival in a museum and people are stopping by to
Speaker 2: get their pictures taken near the statue and they're spending
Speaker 2: money in the town, which they should, and so maybe
Speaker 2: it was a good thing, and I felt like maybe
Speaker 2: it was safe to go back.
Speaker 1: The film's tone is certainly haunting, yet deeply human. How
Speaker 1: did you approach creating that fear through the atmosphere rather
Speaker 1: than the overt horror. I'm a huge horror fan. We've
Speaker 1: been going back and watching the Terrifier movies, some of
Speaker 1: the most gory movies in history. Danny, who you met
Speaker 1: up in West Virginia, actually went yesterday to a haunted
Speaker 1: house here about an hour and a half away and
Speaker 1: met David who plays Art the Clown, and had some
Speaker 1: great times with him. But it is overtly over the
Speaker 1: top overkill. He is the king of overkill. Yet you
Speaker 1: found some way in this screenplay, in my opinion, to
Speaker 1: do a brilliant job of creating this haunting atmosphere. It
Speaker 1: was very scary, but there wasn't this overt horror. How
Speaker 1: did you approach that in the screenplay and how do
Speaker 1: you think that played out through?
Speaker 2: What played out.
Speaker 1: On the screen And stay tuned for more sasquatch out
Speaker 1: to see We'll be right back after these messages.
Speaker 2: It was by focusing on what I found fascinating and
Speaker 2: disturbing in the book because in the book there is
Speaker 2: no overt horror. There really aren't those beats, and a
Speaker 2: lot of true supernatural books, in fact, most there aren't
Speaker 2: a lot of overt horror beats. Horror is a very
Speaker 2: specific genre, both in print and on screen, and it
Speaker 2: does certain things, and certain things need to happen. There
Speaker 2: are jump scares, and often there is actual physical threat
Speaker 2: and actual physical deaths. Look everything from The Exorcist to Halloween,
Speaker 2: there are people dying. And while people died in Point Pleasant,
Speaker 2: they weren't being murdered. They weren't being killed. They died
Speaker 2: in a horrible accident of infrastructure. There wasn't some creature
Speaker 2: mothman wasn't murdering anyone. So to put that on it
Speaker 2: would be, in my opinion, to make it less interesting.
Speaker 2: What was interesting and compelling to me was this growing
Speaker 2: sense of mystery and dread and this human need to
Speaker 2: find a reason for it and find an answer for it,
Speaker 2: and how those answers in real life never come. That
Speaker 2: just is not a part of people who go through
Speaker 2: alien abductions. Very few of them are settled with that
Speaker 2: and go oh, yes, I'm being abducted by aliens, and
Speaker 2: I totally understand why, and I'm totally good with it.
Speaker 2: And often the people who are like that, what you're
Speaker 2: seeing in that attitude is an attempt. It's adaptive. It's
Speaker 2: trying to make something that is hugely destabilizing not as destabilizing,
Speaker 2: so that life can go on. But these are destabilizing events.
Speaker 2: That was the whole point of the Mothmann prophecies, that
Speaker 2: was the whole point of John Keele's stories. That when
Speaker 2: you really get into this stuff and you're looking at
Speaker 2: it with clear eyes and you're soberly approaching it looking
Speaker 2: for an answer, that's when you're most at risk, because
Speaker 2: that is what the phenomenon will not ever serve. There's
Speaker 2: a trickster element. It will lie, it will baffle you,
Speaker 2: it will lead you down dead ends. It's never going
Speaker 2: to just simply give you the answer. So all those
Speaker 2: ideas were what I found fascinating, But it also made
Speaker 2: the movie a hard sell because a lot of people
Speaker 2: read it expecting it to build into that. There were
Speaker 2: studio executives who were like, well, we love the first
Speaker 2: part of it, it's really interesting, but then at the
Speaker 2: end I think we got to have him fight Mothman
Speaker 2: on the bridge, and I'm like, I totally get that.
Speaker 2: I know why you're saying that, because there is that
Speaker 2: kind of movie. You want that, but that's not what
Speaker 2: this is. So or make what this is or don't.
Speaker 2: And then luckily the studio Lakeshore that eventually bought it
Speaker 2: and the director Mark Pellington who eventually directed it, both
Speaker 2: agreed with my vision. They were like, this is not
Speaker 2: a horror movie. This is a supernatural drama. This is
Speaker 2: more like the sixth sense. It's eerie, it's scary, it's emotional,
Speaker 2: but it isn't horror.
Speaker 1: You've mentioned John Keel multiple times and how he really
Speaker 1: became the quote unquote main character in this story because
Speaker 1: of some of the experiences that he was having, and
Speaker 1: even said so eloquently earlier, when you stare into the darkness,
Speaker 1: it tends to stare back when you get into this phenomena,
Speaker 1: whether it be Mothman, whether it be UFOs, even Bigfoot research.
Speaker 1: To some degree, I have found that with the thousand
Speaker 1: plus people I've interviewed for this show and conferences and
Speaker 1: festivals where I speak and travel, there seems to be
Speaker 1: this theme. Where as you said, you stare into the darkness,
Speaker 1: it stares back at you, and you seem to open
Speaker 1: yourself up to experiences. So were there any experiences that
Speaker 1: you had supernatural or otherwise, or maybe even coincidences that
Speaker 1: occurred when you started getting into writing the screenplay, or
Speaker 1: maybe even while they were filming the film that made
Speaker 1: you question reality a little bit more, maybe than you
Speaker 1: did when you started the process.
Speaker 2: You know, the honest answer is no. John Keel told
Speaker 2: me personally, I got ready for the crazies, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean. Now You're taking sort of the
Speaker 2: baton from my hand. You will be the person associated
Speaker 2: with furthering the myth and the story of the moth
Speaker 2: Man and carrying it further into the world, and how
Speaker 2: people are going to come to you and all the
Speaker 2: crazies are going to come out of the woodwork, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh God, I hope not. And to be honest,
Speaker 2: they really haven't, thank god, not in any bad way,
Speaker 2: just but the good way, Like you know, meeting you
Speaker 2: with the AMA Festival the appropriate amount of crazy I
Speaker 2: like to think, so yeah, But at that time in
Speaker 2: my life I was very interested and for years After that,
Speaker 2: I was like, I've really got to begin a serious
Speaker 2: investigation of my own, even if it justin balls, staying
Speaker 2: at a haunted hotel for the weekend, or putting a
Speaker 2: cassette in a tape recorder before I go to bed
Speaker 2: at night and leaving it downstairs and seeing what happens.
Speaker 2: But I never did. For some reason, I never moved
Speaker 2: in that direction. And then years went by, and about
Speaker 2: ten years ago I was on the writing staff of
Speaker 2: a television show and there was a woman who was
Speaker 2: a little bit older than me. And as weeks went
Speaker 2: by and we talked more and more, it became clear
Speaker 2: that she was someone who was very woo if you will,
Speaker 2: and then knew a lot about that stuff and had
Speaker 2: experiences of her own. And yet she also seemed to
Speaker 2: emanate wisdom and piece in other words, did not seem
Speaker 2: crazy or chaotic. And around that time I picked up
Speaker 2: a used copy of Robert Monroe's book about a pow
Speaker 2: to have an out of body experience, and I was like,
Speaker 2: now I'm feeling like solid and secure enough. Maybe I
Speaker 2: could from that solid standpoint experiment a little bit and
Speaker 2: just like literally see if I can go into the
Speaker 2: room next door and see what's on the desk. I
Speaker 2: just want to prove to myself it can be done.
Speaker 2: And I started reading the book. Now this is the
Speaker 2: story I was telling her because it was happening at
Speaker 2: that time, and I said, I started reading the book
Speaker 2: and then for some reason I stopped and I just felt, Nah,
Speaker 2: this is not right for me. And she was nodding
Speaker 2: and smiling the whole time, and she said to me,
Speaker 2: she said, yeah, I don't think that's what your journey
Speaker 2: is about this time through. I said, oh, what do
Speaker 2: you mean, And she's I just get the feeling that
Speaker 2: for you this time through, it's about really being inside
Speaker 2: your physical body and really connecting to that and connecting
Speaker 2: to the ground and really being in the physical world.
Speaker 2: And so many lights flashed at that moment. For me,
Speaker 2: I'm like, God, I've had therapists who have said that
Speaker 2: my whole physical experience of being alive has been that
Speaker 2: about trying to reconcile the life of the mind with
Speaker 2: just being physically present in the moment, trying to become
Speaker 2: just more physically adept from being a kid who could
Speaker 2: never play a sport than to being an adult who
Speaker 2: I could barely screw in a light bulb, much less
Speaker 2: do any form of house repair. And it's like slowly
Speaker 2: like learning. Okay, maybe I'll learn how to work out.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll get a bike, learn how to bike ride.
Speaker 2: And even when I'm riding my bike, my wife is like, focus,
Speaker 2: don't go up in your head. You're going to get killed.
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, and I've been in thankfully never a
Speaker 2: serious accident, but I've fallen off my bike a dozen times,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going up and down hills. This does
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood because us, hey, there was a parrot.
Speaker 2: Then I get distracted and then I'm on the ground,
Speaker 2: so it's okay, I need to be careful anyway. So
Speaker 2: it's a long way of saying no, and I no
Speaker 2: longer seek those experiences out. I now understand that, look,
Speaker 2: if something supernatural happens, okay. But in terms of me
Speaker 2: seeking those experiences out, I think I'm okay where I am.
Speaker 1: I totally get that I am on the complete opposite
Speaker 1: side of that spectrum. I've had so many weird things
Speaker 1: happen to me. But I get that there are people
Speaker 1: that are journeying through life, and there are other things
Speaker 1: that you need to learn, and I totally believe in
Speaker 1: that stuff. Let me ask you this is a more
Speaker 1: current question. If you were to revisit the Mothman Prophecies today,
Speaker 1: in a social media era where folklore almost instantaneously, do
Speaker 1: you think you might look at the story and approach
Speaker 1: it a little bit differently today versus twenty eight years
Speaker 1: ago when you wrote this.
Speaker 2: The only way to approach it differently now would be
Speaker 2: to do the opposite of what I did before. And
Speaker 2: so it was only maybe five or six years ago
Speaker 2: that I started thinking. We're in a very different media
Speaker 2: landscape now, where there's cable and streaming and there are
Speaker 2: shows that feel like just really long movies, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I wonder if now you could do a more straightforward
Speaker 2: adaptation of the book. You would still have to impose
Speaker 2: more story and character relationship, but maybe you could get
Speaker 2: all those things and you could do it in that
Speaker 2: time period, and you could have Mary Higher and you
Speaker 2: could have Linda Scarberry, and you could have Woodrow Derrenberger,
Speaker 2: and you could actually have those people play a role
Speaker 2: in the movie and then make it a little bit
Speaker 2: more true to life, because I'm like, just the costumes
Speaker 2: and the set decoration alone would be amazing, and then
Speaker 2: playing into all those events that people who now have
Speaker 2: read the book, and there's so many more people now
Speaker 2: who have read the book since the movie came out,
Speaker 2: that it's oh now for them, they'll be like, Oh,
Speaker 2: there's that scene and there's that moment, and I thought,
Speaker 2: maybe you could do it that way, and the thoughts
Speaker 2: winning and out of my mind. I never really sat down,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately six seven, eight years ago would have been
Speaker 2: a good time. Now, probably with the entertainment landscape the
Speaker 2: way it is, I think that'd be a really hard sell, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: because I think it would still be entertaining. But I
Speaker 2: think just the way studios are approaching what they actually
Speaker 2: do and make and the way they do it, I
Speaker 2: think it'd be a really billion to one shot now
Speaker 2: that would be a thing that could get made.
Speaker 1: I want to shift gears a little bit because this
Speaker 1: is primarily a Sasquatch bigfoot encounter show. So I want
Speaker 1: to ask you this because I used to think when
Speaker 1: I started looking into this, I was a police officer
Speaker 1: for many years. I've got to see the evidence to
Speaker 1: believe anything. So I'm very skeptical, mostly of people more
Speaker 1: so than the phenomena. If I'm being honest, I used
Speaker 1: to think that people who had weird experiences like strange
Speaker 1: lights and maybe even seeing craft and having bigfoot or
Speaker 1: other cryptid activity was completely separate. I just separated the
Speaker 1: two put them into boxes that I could check off.
Speaker 1: But I found talking to so many people and doing
Speaker 1: so many interviews over the years, all of this stuff
Speaker 1: seems to be connected in some way. I guess the
Speaker 1: question for you is, do you think it's possible that
Speaker 1: the phenomena of something like mothman and Bigfoot could be
Speaker 1: somehow connected, whether it be symbolically, energetically, and it's representing
Speaker 1: something deeper in the collective unconsciousness that may be out
Speaker 1: there in the zeitgeist. How do you feel about the
Speaker 1: possibility of these phenomena being connected in some way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you call it ghost bigfoot. And it's
Speaker 2: funny because when I grew up. Now you're quite a
Speaker 2: bit younger than I am. But I was growing up
Speaker 2: in the late sixties early seventies and watching in Search
Speaker 2: of and seeing movies Legend of Boggie Creek and The
Speaker 2: Very Sun, Classic International Pictures, all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 2: and then, of course the Patterson Gimlin film, everything was
Speaker 2: leaning toward physical flesh and blood Bigfoot. That's how I
Speaker 2: understood Bigfoot. In fact, I've been rereading You'll know this
Speaker 2: the minute I hold it up, but I've been rereading
Speaker 2: this Don Hunter Renee, a Hinden book, and everything about
Speaker 2: this book there is not a mention of a portal.
Speaker 2: There is not a mention of a UFO. There is
Speaker 2: not a mention of an ultra terrestrial. This book is
Speaker 2: We're hunting an animal, and so that's how I grew
Speaker 2: up with that same feeling. It's like Bigfoot is an
Speaker 2: animal in the woods. UFOs are crafts from other planets,
Speaker 2: filled with creatures that bleed blood and breathe air and
Speaker 2: land and talk to us and shake our hands. And
Speaker 2: then ghosts are ghosts. That's separate, that's dead people. That's
Speaker 2: a whole different thing. And I don't feel that way anymore.
Speaker 2: I do feel that it is all connected. It is
Speaker 2: all connected in the sense that our brains are not
Speaker 2: radio dishes that are just these big open things that
Speaker 2: just take in signals from everywhere. I feel now that
Speaker 2: our brains are these locked down turtle shell filters that
Speaker 2: are blocking so much out so that we can focus
Speaker 2: on just being alive and getting through whatever this human
Speaker 2: journey is. But some people can open their shell a
Speaker 2: little bit, and those are your psychics, and those are
Speaker 2: the people who've had near death experiences, and whether they
Speaker 2: like it or not, people who have alien encounters. These
Speaker 2: are people who are taking in a little bit more
Speaker 2: than we are. Mediums, people who have precognitive dreams. They're
Speaker 2: getting a little more. And all of those things, bigfoot,
Speaker 2: UFOs and mothman, I think exist in a way that
Speaker 2: is sometimes physical. So it seems very tempting to go, oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh, look there are tracks, or my eyes got
Speaker 2: burned by looking at something. My eyes had to get
Speaker 2: burned by something. The Cleague conjunctividis I've got there was
Speaker 2: a light somewhere, and not a normal one, because most
Speaker 2: lights I look at throughout my life don't burn my eyes.
Speaker 2: So what happened? All of those things, they're a little
Speaker 2: bit physical, a little bit not physical. Something's out in
Speaker 2: the woods throwing rocks at us. Something is out in
Speaker 2: the woods. It's making those weird calls. Something is in
Speaker 2: the woods hitting a tree with a stick. We're hearing
Speaker 2: it that's physical, and.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for more sasquat chatta see. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back after these messages.
Speaker 2: But his Bigfoot always there? Is he there right now?
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily think so. I think Bigfoot's there when
Speaker 2: he or she wants to be there or is placed
Speaker 2: there and then not there. And same thing with Mothman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many different sightings that are happening now
Speaker 1: around the Chicago area. I've interviewed people like Lon Strickler
Speaker 1: on the show in the past, who does a deep
Speaker 1: dive into winged tominoids, not necessarily Mothman in particular, but
Speaker 1: just winged hominoids in general. When it comes to cryptids,
Speaker 1: and I think there are people that are clearly seeing
Speaker 1: something physical, but I think they may become and going
Speaker 1: out of our reality in some way, shape, form, or fashion.
Speaker 1: I can't even believe I'm saying this. I used to
Speaker 1: not even be open to that possibility, and now people
Speaker 1: have told me, the longer you stay in this, the
Speaker 1: longer you do what I do, the more you seem
Speaker 1: to move towards that wu or that high strangeness. Because frankly,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's the only thing that makes sense. Let me
Speaker 1: ask you this, as a writer, if you were to
Speaker 1: write a film or a series about Bigfoot, what angle
Speaker 1: would you take?
Speaker 2: Would you go the horror.
Speaker 1: Route, the mystery route, would you have more empathy? Would
Speaker 1: it be something completely different? And I guess the second
Speaker 1: part of that question is, given your background of storytelling,
Speaker 1: how would you approach that from the human side of
Speaker 1: a Bigfoot encounter? Would there be fear, awe, revelation? How
Speaker 1: would you approach that? In general? If you were going
Speaker 1: to sit down and write a screenplay and do a
Speaker 1: movie about Bigfoot today, that one.
Speaker 2: Is really hard. And there was a period of time
Speaker 2: this is pream off man, when obviously I was interested
Speaker 2: in Bigfoot, and I was like, God, there's got to
Speaker 2: be a way to tell that story. And when I
Speaker 2: would approach it, it was always like instantly takes the
Speaker 2: form of Okay, there's a person, a guy becomes obsessed
Speaker 2: with the idea of Bigfoot, goes on the hunt for Bigfoot,
Speaker 2: goes through hardship. So then what's the end of this story?
Speaker 2: What is the payoff? What's the thing? Is it that
Speaker 2: you never find the thing you're looking for? Is it
Speaker 2: that you do find the thing you're looking for and
Speaker 2: both answers seemed unsatisfactory to me because it felt like
Speaker 2: the person doesn't find it, then the whole movie is
Speaker 2: just one long tease, and then if he does find it,
Speaker 2: there's something disappointing there too. It's oh, so it's just
Speaker 2: there's Bigfoot and he's not going to kill it. No
Speaker 2: one wants a movie where a guy's tying the corpse
Speaker 2: of Bigfoot onto the hood of his car. So would
Speaker 2: they just look at each each other in the woods
Speaker 2: and then Bigfoot waves and walks away. I don't like
Speaker 2: that either, and that's usually where the thinking would stop.
Speaker 2: But that was because everything I'd grown up with was
Speaker 2: flesh and blood, paws and claws, Bigfoot. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: until the Mothman Prophecies and reading that book that it
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is about something where the author
Speaker 2: himself is this isn't fully physical, like something else is
Speaker 2: going on here. I'm not walking around and looking for
Speaker 2: Mothman scat. He's not doing that. He's having a whole
Speaker 2: other experience, which weirdly made more sense to me. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's interesting. You can do it both ways, So I
Speaker 2: think it'd be really tough I don't know how to
Speaker 2: do the Bigfoot movie in any straight way. Is there
Speaker 2: a way to do it as a character comedy. Is
Speaker 2: there a way to do it as a metaphor for
Speaker 2: something else? Maybe? Is there a way to make it supernatural? Bigfoot?
Speaker 2: Probably now you could. I think you could still make
Speaker 2: a horror movie about Bigfoot, for sure, and then you
Speaker 2: could probably also make a supernatural drama where you're able
Speaker 2: to understand that Bigfoot is a spirit of the woods.
Speaker 2: It's been there, it's still there, it will always be there,
Speaker 2: but never one hundred percent physically. And I think people
Speaker 2: could watch that nowadays and it wouldn't strike them as foolish.
Speaker 2: It would actually strike them as more realistic.
Speaker 1: As someone who wrote a fictional story about Bigfoot. Last year,
Speaker 1: my second book came out, Born Wild Code's Odyssey, Volume one.
Speaker 1: I tried my best to make the characters relatable.
Speaker 2: In that book.
Speaker 1: I wanted people to feel as much as possible what
Speaker 1: was happening to the Sasquatch characters.
Speaker 2: In this book. I wanted them to feel empathy.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, as an author who's
Speaker 1: written a screenplay in the past, what role do you
Speaker 1: think empathy plays in the paranormal storytelling, not just for experiences,
Speaker 1: but the phenomena itself.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting because I haven't had the pleasure of
Speaker 2: reading your book yet, but what I was picking up
Speaker 2: from what you said was that the bigfoot sasquatch characters
Speaker 2: are characters you're not just in the point of view
Speaker 2: of the hunter, as it were, but also the creature itself. Look,
Speaker 2: you and I saw this a month ago. The degree
Speaker 2: to which people identify with these cryptids. It does not
Speaker 2: surprise me at all that these are often people who
Speaker 2: feel like they're outsiders in our culture, and for them
Speaker 2: to identify with these other creatures, these other beings whose
Speaker 2: legitimacy and even reality is questioned by the larger society.
Speaker 2: I get that metaphor completely. So the notion that you
Speaker 2: could write and actually see a cryptid as something that
Speaker 2: you could empathize and sympathize with, I totally get that,
Speaker 2: and I think it makes sense. Well, what's hard about
Speaker 2: it is to fully step into the creature's point of view,
Speaker 2: because the creatures are so unknowable that to step into
Speaker 2: their point of view it's a little tough. Like as
Speaker 2: a writer, I would be like I don't know what
Speaker 2: that point of view is. You would have to make
Speaker 2: a pretty big leap, and it can be done to
Speaker 2: then go, okay, here's how Now I'm going to be
Speaker 2: actually in that character and say this is how Bigfoot
Speaker 2: feels in this moment, and this is how Mothman feels
Speaker 2: in this moment, and this is their point of view
Speaker 2: on what's happening. That is a big leap, and it
Speaker 2: might be such a big leap you might be crossing genres,
Speaker 2: which by the way, everyone does now sound like a
Speaker 2: thousand year old man at this point. But you've got
Speaker 2: to really know what you're doing. And I would say,
Speaker 2: if you're going to take that step, which maybe you did,
Speaker 2: I've got to read your book, but you've really got
Speaker 2: to do it. Then you just got to really jump
Speaker 2: in with both feet, as it were both big feet,
Speaker 2: and go, okay, now we're in Bigfoot's point of view.
Speaker 2: Now we're going to get his thoughts or her thoughts.
Speaker 1: We're going to have to send you a copy of
Speaker 1: the book for sure, so you can read.
Speaker 2: It, but you got to sign it. Got to be signed.
Speaker 1: I'll definitely do that. When you look at stories like
Speaker 1: the Mothman Bigfoot, UFO encounters. Do you think that they're
Speaker 1: teaching us more about the world or do you think
Speaker 1: they're teaching us more about ourselves.
Speaker 2: You're talking about the TV shows, these sort of investigative
Speaker 2: TV shows, if.
Speaker 1: You're looking at the cryptids themselves, Mothman, Bigfoot, So people
Speaker 1: who have those types of encounters, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: Look, anytime someone has one of these experiences, if you
Speaker 2: listen and take it seriously, yeah, you're learning more about
Speaker 2: the human experience and what it is to be alive
Speaker 2: on planet Earth. And as long as you're not the
Speaker 2: most reductionist materialist debunker who relegates all of this to
Speaker 2: mental aberration, misidentification, attention seeking, all of that, but if
Speaker 2: you can really just say sometimes people do legitimately have
Speaker 2: these transcendent experiences that they struggle with, Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: it's teaching us about what it is to be human.
Speaker 2: And those are so close in the mathmat prophecies, the
Speaker 2: notion of having a supernatural experience you can't explain, and
Speaker 2: also having just a fairly common life experience, which is
Speaker 2: I suddenly experienced a terrible tragedy and lost someone I love.
Speaker 2: Those two are very close, and once you're in one place,
Speaker 2: it's not that hard to step into the next place,
Speaker 2: because now you're asking those questions of what does our
Speaker 2: life mean? And when people die, are they truly gone
Speaker 2: in every possible sense or is it only in the
Speaker 2: physical sense? And can you ever get across that chasm?
Speaker 2: And if you do, and if something comes back, what
Speaker 2: is it that's coming back? Is it your dead loved one,
Speaker 2: or sometimes is it something else that's masquerading.
Speaker 1: I definitely want to get into your podcast Richard Hadam's
Speaker 1: paranormal Bookshelf. We're going to save that for last, but
Speaker 1: one last question before we get there. If you could
Speaker 1: sit down and have a conversation with any experiencer, whether
Speaker 1: it be John Keel, whether it be Albert Ossman, whether
Speaker 1: it be Patterson Gimlin, anybody who's had an experience with
Speaker 1: one of these cryptids, one or more of these cryptids,
Speaker 1: or even a modern experiencer, what's the one question that
Speaker 1: you would want to ask that person.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's such a great question. I will
Speaker 2: tell you that I have been thinking about that question
Speaker 2: in terms of someone else, in terms of Whitley Screeber. Okay,
Speaker 2: so an experiencer, but not necessarily with a cryptid nestsily
Speaker 2: because when we were at the Mothman Festival, I met
Speaker 2: Linda Sigmund, who was right across from where I was sitting,
Speaker 2: and she witnessed Mofman. She's a living witness. When I
Speaker 2: meet something like that, I just want to hear the story.
Speaker 2: But with a guy like Whitley Streeber, who has devoted
Speaker 2: the second half of his life to repeatedly being open
Speaker 2: to interacting with some non human intelligence, my questions always
Speaker 2: boiled down to do you feel you have even just
Speaker 2: intellectually gained something from them, not necessarily from the experience,
Speaker 2: because I think the answer that I would get would
Speaker 2: be Whitley Streeber would say, yes, I've gained something. I've
Speaker 2: gained an understanding that the world is not completely material,
Speaker 2: and that our place in the cosmos is different than
Speaker 2: we thought it was, and all that stuff. And I
Speaker 2: get that, But I am weirdly curious if he feels
Speaker 2: that he has gotten something solid. I will say that
Speaker 2: there was one occasion where in my telepathic communications with
Speaker 2: these beings, they told me something that came true, or
Speaker 2: they told me something that assured me that a dead
Speaker 2: relative or loved one was in communication with me in
Speaker 2: a way that I solidly believe rather than just there
Speaker 2: is more. Do they ever palaver with us on a
Speaker 2: more human level? My guess is the answer is no,
Speaker 2: because that's not what they do.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about Richard Adams's paranormal Bookshelf. It's
Speaker 1: such a grounded yet curious show. What's your philosophy on
Speaker 1: exploring the paranormal? Do you approach it with skepticism open
Speaker 1: mindedness or are you more about the storytelling aspect of it?
Speaker 1: How do you get into the paranormal when you're doing
Speaker 1: this on the show, when you're going through these books?
Speaker 1: And I guess the second part of that question would be,
Speaker 1: is there a book or an author that you featured
Speaker 1: on the podcast thus far that has profoundly shifted your
Speaker 1: views on maybe what's real and what's not?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, yes to all of that. By
Speaker 2: the way, Yes I am skeptical, Yes I am open,
Speaker 2: and yes I'm interested in the creative aspect of all
Speaker 2: of it. Early on, there were people who listened to
Speaker 2: I don't know the first season or halfway through the
Speaker 2: first season, and then there are comments. Are the reactions
Speaker 2: were I'm out because you talked about this stuff as
Speaker 2: if it's all true, or basically you're not being skeptical enough,
Speaker 2: like some of us need actual proof. And my response
Speaker 2: to that is that's not what I'm doing. The podcast
Speaker 2: isn't about me talking about a subject and then saying
Speaker 2: and here's the proof, and here's why I think it's real,
Speaker 2: and you should think it's real too. There are books
Speaker 2: that I've talked about on podcast where I'm like, this
Speaker 2: is fake. I'm not vouching for the phenomenon. I might
Speaker 2: be vouching for the book or the experience of reading
Speaker 2: the book, but I'm not saying that I believe in
Speaker 2: the thing that happened in the book. And there are
Speaker 2: others that where I say, yeah, I am advocating. If
Speaker 2: I had to say, i'd say, yes, I believe this
Speaker 2: person's story. Most of them are just things that we
Speaker 2: reflect on. Look, what you and I are doing right
Speaker 2: now is the way I like to think about the supernatural.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure you've had guests on that are much
Speaker 2: more in a way, like bigfoot materialists. I'm sure you've
Speaker 2: had people on who are like, I went into the
Speaker 2: woods and here's my evidence, and here's why I believe
Speaker 2: we're this close. There's that conversation, and the equivalent conversation
Speaker 2: on the UFO side is people who only want to
Speaker 2: talk about Louis Elizondo, the Pentagon Disclosure, congressional hearings, and whistleblowers,
Speaker 2: and there's that conversation. But my thing is, I'm not
Speaker 2: on the hunt for a physical answer because I don't
Speaker 2: think I'm going to get one in this life. So
Speaker 2: I'm more interested in the way certain books have made
Speaker 2: me feel. I did an episode about reading a book
Speaker 2: about near death experiences, but it was about bad near
Speaker 2: death experiences where people came back thinking, Oh no, what
Speaker 2: happens after you die is really bad. There is life
Speaker 2: after death, but it's not going to be good. That
Speaker 2: book had a huge effect on me. That book really
Speaker 2: deeply upset me for a long time. And there are
Speaker 2: other books that have had these sort of emotional impacts
Speaker 2: on me. But that's the fun part is each one
Speaker 2: of these books is like talking to a person and
Speaker 2: hearing their story and then reacting to it. I covered
Speaker 2: a book about the Amityville Horror which was written by
Speaker 2: a parapsychologist, and it was a two hundred page screed
Speaker 2: about how it was fake and no one was listeningstening
Speaker 2: to him, and they made the movie without consulting him.
Speaker 2: Elizabeth and Lorraine Warren made money off of it, and
Speaker 2: they shouldn't have. It's the most beautiful, entertaining, wonderful book,
Speaker 2: which I actually believe he was correct, but it's filled
Speaker 2: with such righteous indignation that only a parapsychologist or theater
Speaker 2: critic can really summon. His voice comes through so clearly
Speaker 2: and so endearingly, and I'm so glad that I think
Speaker 2: when the dust settles, people will go, oh, this guy's correct,
Speaker 2: And frankly, the only reason he doesn't get more credit
Speaker 2: is because he is also a parapsychologist. Apparently the only
Speaker 2: people who can debunk Amityville have to be debunkers. When
Speaker 2: someone who actually believes that there are real haunted houses
Speaker 2: out there that we should be studying and not Amityville,
Speaker 2: that's the guy they don't listen to. But I think
Speaker 2: they should.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for more sasquat Yodasy will be right back
Speaker 1: after these messages.
Speaker 2: Anyway. The podcast that I do typically tells a story
Speaker 2: of a book that I have read, and usually what
Speaker 2: was going on in my life while I was reading
Speaker 2: that book, and how those two things interweave. That is
Speaker 2: fun and challenging, But for me, that's the fun of it.
Speaker 2: The fun is sitting around with your friends and your
Speaker 2: colleagues like you and I and having these conversations because
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be having them if they didn't stir something
Speaker 2: in our souls, and if they didn't touch something essential
Speaker 2: in each one of us that lives in a place
Speaker 2: of questioning, that lives in a place of eternal childhood,
Speaker 2: and is sitting by a fire and looking out the
Speaker 2: window and feeling that weird, cozy thrill of what's outside.
Speaker 2: I don't really want it to press up against the window,
Speaker 2: but I do want to think about it and wonder
Speaker 2: about it and hear the stories about it. And that's
Speaker 2: what keeps me going, And that is what, to me,
Speaker 2: is the most interesting thing about what it is we
Speaker 2: talk about when we talk about sasquatch.
Speaker 1: Which brings me to my last question, which is, what
Speaker 1: do you think it is about the pair of normal
Speaker 1: and these cryptids that continues to fascinate human beings across
Speaker 1: generations and all cultures.
Speaker 2: It's the ultimate question, what happens after we die. And
Speaker 2: it seems strange that Bigfoot would play into that, but
Speaker 2: of course Bigfoot does, because any mystery plays into that. Look.
Speaker 2: When I went to USC Film School, one of the
Speaker 2: things I learned is that no story is about the story.
Speaker 2: It's how do I say this, it's the story behind
Speaker 2: the story. In other words, when you're writing a murder mystery,
Speaker 2: what you're really writing about is the mystery of death itself.
Speaker 2: And the reason that we can always be interested and
Speaker 2: will always be in in a murder mystery story automatically
Speaker 2: is because, in a weird way, what it's doing is
Speaker 2: it's introducing a character that is imposing logic and meaning
Speaker 2: on an event that we all struggle with because we're
Speaker 2: all going to die. But when a detective of any
Speaker 2: stripe can come in and at least solve the physical
Speaker 2: aspect of what happened, because that is being presented as
Speaker 2: a mystery, it touches upon the greater question, which is
Speaker 2: why do we die? In what happens next? And that
Speaker 2: is obviously of pervasive interest to us because that's the
Speaker 2: journey we are all on. Any mystery, whether it's the
Speaker 2: Lockness Monster or Sasquatch or UFOs or ghosts, all of
Speaker 2: them brush up against the big unknown, and it allows
Speaker 2: us to ask those questions in a way where we
Speaker 2: can actually form questions and hope to get answers. And
Speaker 2: then it's just up to how badly do you actually
Speaker 2: want physical answers and how deeply do you believe you're
Speaker 2: ever going to actually get physical answers. Look, you and
Speaker 2: I know that if you go back to the late
Speaker 2: sixties and you ask any of those guys Tom Slick
Speaker 2: or Reneeda Hinden or Don Hundra, any of those guys
Speaker 2: and Grover Krantz of the Big Ones, Peter Burn, if
Speaker 2: you said in twenty twenty five, will we have the
Speaker 2: answer to Bigfoot? They would all have said yes. Not
Speaker 2: one of them could have imagined that humanity would go
Speaker 2: another fifty five sixty years and we wouldn't have something.
Speaker 2: But we don't. Not really, we have a lot more
Speaker 2: of the same stuff we've always had. What does that
Speaker 2: say about our ability to finally ultimately so the question
Speaker 2: of Sasquatch And for some people that's okay, Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: where we're going to be. Some things are going to
Speaker 2: be a mystery, and it's just going to be that
Speaker 2: thing we have to gnaw on, talk about and turn
Speaker 2: over in our minds as we go through whatever. This
Speaker 2: experience of life actually is.
Speaker 1: Very well, said my friend Richard Hadams Paranormal Bookshelf. Tell
Speaker 1: everybody where they can find it and what they can
Speaker 1: expect when they go and check out the show.
Speaker 2: You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts, and
Speaker 2: what you can expect to hear is a lot more
Speaker 2: of what you've just heard all this kind of talk.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what the podcast is by telling you
Speaker 2: what people tell me it is, and the people who
Speaker 2: really enjoy it say, I love this podcast because you're
Speaker 2: telling a story. It's a real story. You're talking about
Speaker 2: subjects we like, but you're talking about your life in
Speaker 2: a very honest and revealing and vulnerable way that brings
Speaker 2: me instantly back to events in my own life, the
Speaker 2: goods stuff, the bad stuff, the hard stuff, and it
Speaker 2: makes me feel less alone along the way. If I'm crying,
Speaker 2: I'm also laughing a lot, and that's good too.
Speaker 1: It is an amazing show. You guys, go check it out.
Speaker 1: I'll make it easy for you. There's a link right
Speaker 1: here in the show notes. All you have to do
Speaker 1: is click it, go over and show Richard some love,
Speaker 1: listen to it, download it, turn on auto downloads. Richard
Speaker 1: had them thank you so much for coming on the
Speaker 1: show and giving us your time.
Speaker 2: I've had a blast talking to you anytime. Man. I
Speaker 2: loved it.
Speaker 1: They say, you don't gotta go home, but you can't stay.
Speaker 1: I want Step trying this job, that chid everything.
Speaker 3: Call me right back, crying back, joy.
Speaker 2: For me, enjoy staying right there.
Speaker 3: Call it right away and still stay Step. Still dossssstsstsstusss