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Start having the 45 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:59.719 most fun ever at chumbuck Casino dot com. 46 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.760 Over to Nemary Lost Your Conditions eighting plus. 47 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.719 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 48 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:26.199 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 50 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.919 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 51 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.199 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 52 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:47.800 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. 53 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:53.800 During World War Two, Lithuanian collaborator Sylvestris greek Shell had 54 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.080 been plucked from a Nazi death camp and sent on 55 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.960 colvert missions by his Allied handlers. Now, during the Cold War, 56 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:06.840 he'd been redeployed as Steve Griggs, a nondescript American husband 57 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.800 and father of four, serving stateside as a cook in 58 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:13.840 the U. S. Army, though still doing back black bag 59 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:18.159 jobs on the side. This dangerous, volatile man was consumed 60 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:22.400 by an insatiable appetite for sadistic violence and psychological torture, 61 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.520 and now his obsessions involved his own children. Our story 62 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:33.280 begins just as Griggs and his lovely wife Diane placed 63 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:37.919 Diane and Stephen in a secret multi generational program from experimentation, 64 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.319 study and training with psychedelic enhancement. With each episode the 65 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.360 brave boy and his clever sister survive, we come to 66 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.919 appreciate how they've managed to prevail, and, like Hansel and Gretel, 67 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:54.280 emerge from this matrix of horror, triumphant and transformed. Sondra 68 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.479 London has published Confessions of serial Killers and research some 69 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.280 of the most depraved criminal minds of our time. After 70 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:04.240 twenty four years of studying the real life monsters in 71 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:08.159 cages where Murder Road comes to a dead end, Sondra 72 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.360 declares that nothing in the true crime genre compares to 73 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.560 this vivid and intimate account of surviving mortal terror at 74 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.720 the hands of the undetectable serial killer Silvetrist. The book 75 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.639 they were featuring this evening is Good Little Soldiers, a 76 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.000 Memoir of true Horror, with my special guest, journalist and author, 77 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.439 Sondra London. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 78 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:36.600 much for agreeing to this interview. Sondra London, Well, hello. 79 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:40.199 Dan, how are you? I always admired your podcast and 80 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:41.839 I'm proud to participate. 81 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.399 Thank you very much. It's been a couple of years 82 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.040 since we spoke and it's my pleasure to have you 83 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.759 on the program with this incredible book, Good Little Soldiers. 84 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:55.360 We don't want to get off base because we only 85 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.759 have an hour to explain this very, very complicated and 86 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:05.000 incredible case. Suffice to say, let's just say how you 87 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.959 came to be in a position to write Good Little Soldiers. 88 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:09.839 Tell us about that. 89 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.839 Okay, I'll try to cut to the chase, and we'll 90 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:19.680 already start with me having been exposed to a serial 91 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:24.279 killer myself at a young age and written a couple 92 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:28.319 of books on that, and we'll pick up where I 93 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.680 was under contract with the filmmaker to research mind control 94 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:37.839 and went to a symposium and that's where I met 95 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:44.279 Stephen Griggs, and Steven sent me a box of research 96 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:49.680 that he had done on his case. And this is 97 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:55.519 how I learned about the whole case Stephen. I dealt 98 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:59.600 with Stephen for three years before he felt that he'd 99 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.079 me enough to allow me to be introduced to his 100 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:09.839 sister Diane. And then it was Diane's voice and Diane's 101 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:16.439 experience in Diane's character that really drew me. I didn't 102 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:20.000 work on the book right away, but that story just 103 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:23.879 haunted me and I kept coming back to it, and 104 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.399 all in all, it took thirteen years from the time 105 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.480 I met Steven until I was able to really complete 106 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:33.279 this project. 107 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.079 What's interesting about this book and so unique is that, 108 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.040 as you say, you're the author of books that are 109 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:48.600 incredible for rays into the minds of serial killers, and 110 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:51.800 that has been established, that research and all that work 111 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:54.959 that you have done. What is it about this case 112 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.560 in particular that's much different than, as you explain, say, 113 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.800 a true crime story. What is the difference between this 114 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.680 memoir and a traditional true crime story. 115 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.120 Okay, First of all, a big, big difference is the 116 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.120 point of view, because I had concentrated on bringing out 117 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.480 the point of view of the killer before, and in 118 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:22.079 this case it's the voice of the victim, an intimate witness, 119 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:28.720 the killer's daughter, and so it's that particular experience is 120 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.839 quite different. The other important aspect of the difference is 121 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.279 the very idea of true crime. And since we're here 122 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:39.959 on a true murder show, I better go into that. 123 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.240 My understanding of true crime has come to be that 124 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.800 this is a marketing term, and that a true crime 125 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.839 book relies upon headlines to do the publicity for it, 126 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:55.879 and it relies upon going through the court process to 127 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:02.600 vet and validate information the book is going to include. So, 128 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:05.079 in other words, ripped from the headline is the key 129 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:12.000 to true crime. And since our perpetrator here was never indicted, 130 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.639 never convicted, and went his entire life as what I 131 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.160 call the undetectable serial killer, then we didn't have the 132 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:25.439 advantage of those court records. We didn't have the publicity 133 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:31.199 that's generated by you know, a nationwide man hunting the nicknames, 134 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.840 you know, like the nightstalk or all of this is 135 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:41.000 a marketing category that true crime sits under. But I 136 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.000 did not want this voice to be lost, even though 137 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:51.000 it could not meet that firewall, and so I declared 138 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:56.639 it its own genre of true horror, because that goes 139 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:02.240 to the horror of knowing an experience, feeling an experience, 140 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:04.600 having an experience, and then when you go to try 141 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:07.080 to tell about it, you're met with this belief. And 142 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.279 that is a big part of the narrative of the book, 143 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:15.000 is these kids telling and telling and telling, and in 144 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:20.000 detail exactly how the consequence is unreal from telling these 145 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.200 unwonted tales. 146 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:29.559 Now you start again, We're gonna do the voice of Diane, 147 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:34.159 and she knows herself as Annie, so we can call 148 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.840 her Diana, we can call her Annie. But did you 149 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:40.360 talk about just right from the beginning taking us right 150 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.559 inside to the going to the fort. So tell us 151 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.960 how old Diane or Annie is at that time, and 152 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:52.279 then describe this experience as you do in the very 153 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.759 beginning of her going to this for an examination at 154 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.879 the fort, and tell us what the fort is, and 155 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:00.440 tell us a little bit more both this. 156 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:04.559 Diane and her brother Steve and her children of a 157 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:09.120 soldier and they live on base, and so they live 158 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:14.120 in housing on the grounds of Fort Devons And Diane 159 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:16.960 was six and her brother was nine at the time 160 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:22.039 when our book starts, and her dad and her mom 161 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:27.799 take them down to the office at the fort to 162 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.080 actually go through a gate and go on to the 163 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.759 fort itself, and then they go to a clinic and 164 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:40.679 they actually sign Diane and her brother into a experimental 165 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:45.600 secret program for what they called the best in the bride, 166 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:51.000 and they were chosen to be in this program. During 167 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:54.720 that scene, the father tries to promote the fact that 168 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.320 he has these other kids and maybe they'd like them too, 169 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.919 and then no, they said they were not qualified, just 170 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:07.200 Stephen and Diane were. And so that goings on where 171 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:13.360 they were taken down to the clinic for a period. 172 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.960 There it was every day, and the clinic was a 173 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:21.879 clinic above ground, but then they had a spiral hall 174 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:28.879 that gradually would go down to below and at that 175 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:33.240 point they called it the lab, and that's where a 176 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.799 lot of this special training was going on. Now we've 177 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.159 heard I didn't I didn't want this book to come 178 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.919 out until people knew what mind Control and mk Ultra 179 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.519 was because I have so much to tell and I 180 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.159 can't just go on and on. I have to fit 181 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.720 it into one book. So I wanted people to know. 182 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:56.000 But now it's become diluted because people say mk ultra 183 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.679 about everything, including Beyonce and jay Z, you know, and 184 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:03.919 that's gone far afield from the real thing. But you know, 185 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.759 the program was only funded in nineteen sixty one, and 186 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:11.960 Diane and Stephen were already in the lab at that point. 187 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:16.360 But that mk Ultra was not the first program number one, 188 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:22.679 and not the first government funded hypnosis and LSD treatment 189 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.240 of children. This is already going on for three years 190 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.039 on the record at the date that Diane and Stephen 191 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:32.639 entered into that program. 192 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.600 Now you talk about what would be the potential advantage. 193 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.679 I mean, it seems altruistic that the parents would want 194 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.480 to have do whatever patriotic thing they could do. 195 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:45.440 He is busy. 196 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:50.159 Oh yeah, there was money, but the money it actually 197 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.360 actually everyone clearly stated that that money was going into 198 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.120 a fund for the children when they got older. But 199 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.080 the father is such a psychopathy, willfully misconstrued that, and 200 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.879 he had all he thought was money, and by that 201 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.919 he meant money for him now and eventually that his 202 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.840 terrible character was the big reason why the kids were 203 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.120 bumped out of the program. Is he went down there 204 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.080 and tried to shake them down wanting the money, and 205 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.720 he stole equipment from the lab. When he was allowed 206 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.159 to bring them deliver them to the lab in the 207 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:33.879 morning and walk in with them. He stole equipment and 208 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.000 got caught at it. So you know, I mean, don't 209 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.360 get the idea that some kind of big genius mind 210 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:47.600 control murderer, some kind of intelligent person, you know, someone 211 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:51.159 with ethics. This is just a real jerk in every way. 212 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:57.039 Now you talk about right away at a very very 213 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.240 very young age. And maybe he could tell us how 214 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.480 old Steve is in comparison to Diane ars Old. There 215 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.320 are two pardon me. 216 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:07.080 Sorry, three years older. 217 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.240 And there's two other daughters as well, right, and so 218 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.840 you talk about that right away. Diane and Steven are 219 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:23.399 witnessed to dad's incredible psychopathic behavior, but soon that turns 220 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:28.879 into more of again he uses the children as a 221 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:31.120 ruse to do the things that he wants to do. 222 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:34.200 What are the children, right from the very beginning of 223 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.600 this book, what do they witness in terms of behavior. 224 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.919 From their say, sadistic murders? And they were not like 225 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.720 you know the book, and they did run into the 226 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.960 so called serial killer experts at the FBI would try 227 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:52.360 to browbeat them with their theories. You know, the book 228 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:57.279 is that serial killers have a compulsion and then they 229 00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:59.720 reenact their fantasy over and over and they leave a 230 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.200 city natural. All that is a bunch of TV fiction 231 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.120 makes a good you know, fiction plot. But this guy 232 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:10.679 right here, regardless of other serial killers, this guy right 233 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.799 here was all over the map. He did every kind 234 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:17.600 of murder and I really didn't. I only included some 235 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.840 in this book that kind of maintained a kind of 236 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.559 a continuity of a story that get there were a 237 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:28.159 lot more so. You had the sadistic murders of a 238 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:34.720 long drawn out courtship and torture of young girls. You 239 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:42.799 had the rape and murder of a little black boy, 240 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:49.559 uh in a very sadistic scenario in which he involved 241 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:57.840 Diane and Steve. And then you had these almost reckless, 242 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.039 careless type murders. You know, there were five dead bodies 243 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.720 of soldiers. We don't know how they died, but you'd 244 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:06.960 get the children out of bed and make them go 245 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.879 with him while he took those bodies out of where 246 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:16.159 he had them and transported them somewhere else and committed 247 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:20.399 a necrophilic rape upon one of those dead soldiers' bodies. 248 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.320 So you really, I mean, hmm. You'd like to think 249 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:29.320 that there was a pattern or something, but the scope 250 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:34.320 of these guys activities was much further than I could 251 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:35.960 include in any one. 252 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:40.879 Book you talk about it. At the same time, the 253 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.000 fort where they were where the testing was done on 254 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:47.639 Stephen and because they didn't want. 255 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.759 To it was a lot of training. Now there was testing, 256 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:56.720 but they were undergoing military grade training. 257 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:03.720 And to what end? What was the purpose of this training? 258 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.279 Why were they selected and what was the purpose of 259 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:06.839 their training? 260 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.559 Well, we can only reverse engineer that, and we know 261 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.519 that overall the goal of the mk Ultra funding was 262 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:20.559 to create super soldiers, to militarize the mind so that 263 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.359 somehow or another, people could more effectively be compelled to 264 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:30.119 kill on command. And really that was part of the 265 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:36.039 dramatic development in the book where that became the crucial 266 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:41.400 question revolving around Diane's participation. But I can tell you 267 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:45.680 I have interviewed, oh my goodness, over a dozen other 268 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.400 people that were involved in these programs documented. I have 269 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:56.400 the transcripts, and this scene was re enacted well every time, really, 270 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.640 because it always comes down to them. In other words, 271 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:07.480 the idea is will you kill? And the hypnotic procedure 272 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:12.319 is to break the personality to set up a scenario 273 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:20.519 where the hypnotized altar believes that their conditions are being met. 274 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:23.440 In other words, if you get them to agree that 275 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:27.319 they would kill to protect their mother, they could be 276 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.680 hypnotically persuaded that this person they're being pointed at is 277 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.759 trying to kill their mother. So that's a simple explanation 278 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.440 of what everything always came down to. But along the 279 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.279 way you got to realize along the way a lot 280 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.200 of these this was not just pure clean medical or anything. 281 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.440 It was crazy people down in there. And they did 282 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:54.400 a lot of really sick and crazy things at really 283 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.839 no point. And I'll point to Louis Jolian West, who 284 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.400 was of the premier mind controlled experimental doctors and prestent 285 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:09.920 of the United States American Psychiatric Association. He handled Jack Luby, 286 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.640 he handled Patty Hurst and so forth. And what did 287 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:20.319 he do. He dosed an elephant with enough LSD to 288 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:25.000 kill him. Within five minutes, the elephant was in seizures, 289 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.119 and within an hour the elephant was dead. Now what 290 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.599 was the point of that. I suppose you could say, well, 291 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.200 we need to know how much LSD it takes to 292 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.480 kill an elephant, right, But that's how you had the 293 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 ideal under which the terms were granted to do this 294 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:50.200 research in this training. But then you had just anybody 295 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:55.519 in there that had real perverted in stadistic leanings. Now 296 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:58.039 that said, I need to get right in here and 297 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:01.000 say that this is not the nature of dying in 298 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:05.960 and Steven experienced. They were not treated sadistically, they were 299 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.119 given acid, they were put under stress. But the horror 300 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.079 stories that I've heard, like the Sleeping Room and many 301 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.039 of the other stories, and I do list of books 302 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.720 at the end of my book that people. 303 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:21.200 Can refer to. 304 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.960 You know, it was quite a lot of horrors, but 305 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.680 in the case of these two dying in to this 306 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:32.240 day very grateful for what she became from going through that. 307 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:39.880 Now, just for those that again this there are skeptics 308 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.720 of this, but it was very interesting the collaboration or 309 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:50.720 the the the consistency between Steven's account and Diane's account. 310 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:56.720 When you first started this, was there any have those 311 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.079 stories mesh so. 312 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.559 That you okay, he was that they aren't really that consistent. 313 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.319 And Stephen was three years older than Diane, so he 314 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.599 was over in Germany and he saw a lot of 315 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.200 stuff in Germany that he's able to describe. But what 316 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.880 Diane saw unexperienced in Germany remains kind of dream like 317 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:21.319 when she describes it. And also the two of them 318 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.119 were not were rarely together in the in the lab 319 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.680 that most of the work that was done was kind 320 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.319 of on a one on one thing with the kids 321 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:39.319 being worked in with worked on with equipment, and she 322 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.720 only saw Stephen in passing at the lab and when 323 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:51.480 they were large experiences like a group hypnosis. And also Stephen, 324 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.880 Stephen had has a different way of seeing things. He's 325 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:59.680 very he never dissociated in his life. Uh, he's very 326 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:05.480 like an engineer, like a boy. He's an all boy. 327 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.359 He's like an engineer and very practical, reorganized. He had 328 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:13.559 a mission even as a little boy to get to 329 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.480 stop his father, and he compiled evidence, and he compiled 330 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:23.400 dossier's and Diane was reluctantly dragged into all this. And 331 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:30.960 Diane is very imaginative, is dissociative. So even though they 332 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.799 could both be in the same scene, they would experience 333 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:39.759 it differently. When their father tried to kill Diane, she 334 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:45.519 manifested a spiritual being that comforted to her. Of course 335 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:46.319 Stephen did not. 336 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:54.519 Let's talk about some of the events that Diane and 337 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:59.880 Steven witnessed and then later were reported to various authorities 338 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:06.279 and we're disbelieved. Let's talk about one particular case. Well, 339 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.200 let's talk about some of the first cases where they 340 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.640 notice a stench in the home and then they're as 341 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.960 curious and inquisitive children that didn't trust their father already 342 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.880 at that point, What did they see and experience and 343 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:21.720 then what is the mother's reaction. 344 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.160 Yeah, the mother is a real curious character. And there's 345 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.759 always got to be one in the mix that performs 346 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:32.319 those functions that the mother is very important in the 347 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:36.480 whole overall dynamic. So Dad's away for the time being, 348 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.759 He's just not there, and so the rest of them 349 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.839 are there and they, you know, they just think, oh, 350 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.079 it's under the house, must be a cat. And so 351 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:51.079 Mom and Diane and the others stand outside. The said 352 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:53.960 get under there, Steve, and you go go get it. 353 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:58.240 And so Stephen crawls under the air. He's the only boy, 354 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:02.240 you know, and so they gags. He comes out. Oh no, 355 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:04.519 He said, did you get it? And he said no, 356 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:08.039 he said it's not a cat. And he said, hello, 357 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.119 what do you mean? He said, it's a woman. He said, 358 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:13.400 how do you know? He said, I touched her leg 359 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:15.359 and it was shaved. 360 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.599 So the mother is incredulous, but. 361 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:25.799 Well, they said they had to get that thing out 362 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:26.119 of there. 363 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.519 So eventually Dad. 364 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.279 Came home and then he had to get it out. 365 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:33.599 And everybody was put into this. In other words, Mom 366 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:38.160 always had an alternative version. You just had a dream, 367 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.519 you read it in a book to encourage anything, to 368 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.119 deflect the idea that this is something that actually happened 369 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.440 to you. Then the other part of that dynamic was 370 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:54.039 that he had her blackmails. And for example, he had 371 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:59.160 insurance policies on all those children, and anytime she would 372 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:03.279 talk about, oh they're how broke they were, she would 373 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:05.759 leave her. Any it caused any trouble at all, he 374 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.880 would literally pull them out and brandish them in her 375 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.559 face and say, well, I guess it's time to cash 376 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:13.319 in one of these policies. 377 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:16.039 Yeah. 378 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.480 The oh she she And she was so broadly and 379 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:27.880 assuming that subservient role to the dominant male, that she 380 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:32.680 had no confidence in her ability to survive as an 381 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:39.519 independent person. She was convinced that that how would I live? 382 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.559 And all she knew how to do was be his woman, 383 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.680 and the children would bag her to weave and everything. 384 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.319 And the great deal of the books had interactions between 385 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:52.519 the children and what they would say, what she would say, 386 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.759 will work out the details of that exactly portray that 387 00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.920 personality for you, And you would see the woman can 388 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.480 and again covering up for the father and brushing all 389 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.599 the children and getting desperate saying just shut up, just 390 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:15.279 shut up until it goes up, until she died and 391 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.680 he remained living there with her. 392 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.200 Wait the lucky land slots. You can get lucky just 393 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:24.519 about anywhere. 394 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.880 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 395 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.759 weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up here 396 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.799 a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. 397 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.319 It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I 398 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.720 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 399 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:39.119 and start getting lucky. 400 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.599 Pay for free at lucky landslipes dot com. Are you 401 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:46.400