WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:05.960 It's Night Side with Dan Ray WBZ Constance Radio. 2 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.039 Thank you Dan Harkins. You know, on Nightside, one of 3 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:11.439 the things we like to try to do is make 4 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:17.600 people think. I don't especially care what you think, meaning 5 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:22.199 whether you like that candidate or don't like that candidate, 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:26.039 or favor this issue or oppose that issue, It doesn't 7 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.239 matter to me. I just want people who think and 8 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:33.159 whatever the conclusion comes, whatever conclusion you come to, hopefully 9 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:35.719 it comes to some thought. So that's what we talk about. 10 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:37.920 I'm the voice of reason and I want people to think. 11 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.719 And this next guest, I think is going to make 12 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:45.640 all of us think quite a bit. Massachusetts as a 13 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.640 state has a lot of natural resources. We have a 14 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:56.320 lot of economic resources, great universities, great colleges, pretty good 15 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.520 road system, we have MBTA, we have a major airport, 16 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:06.159 but we have various industries. We have you know, the 17 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.280 beauty of Cape Corn in the summertime, the beauty of 18 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:12.560 the Berkshires and the fall and winter, and we have 19 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:14.959 so much going for us in this state of six 20 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.879 point seven million people. But we are in a state 21 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.239 that is in big trouble. That's big trouble with a 22 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.439 capital B and a Capital t and to talk about 23 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:32.200 that is my next guest, Aiden Enwright. Aiden works with 24 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:37.439 the Pioneer Institute, which is a think tank here in Massachusetts, 25 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:44.840 and he has just written a very interesting study about 26 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:50.040 the Massachusetts the amount of out migration that is occurring 27 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:54.920 in Massachusetts and the implications thereof. So let me first 28 00:01:54.959 --> 00:02:00.680 of all, welcome Aiden, Aiden Enwright, first time here night side. 29 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:04.079 Thanks very much for joining us tonight. Whenever we think 30 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.640 about a think tank, we think about, oh boy, this 31 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:10.240 must be something that's very difficult to comprehend, but it's 32 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.039 really not, and this is an amazing report that has 33 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.560 just been released. First of all, explain to us what 34 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:21.240 the phrase out migration means. We're not talking about like 35 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:25.599 the migration of the swallows to Capistrano or the migration 36 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:28.560 of the sharks away from the cape heading south once 37 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.240 the water starts to cool up, you know, get really 38 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:35.319 cold out there. What's what's economic out migration mean? 39 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:41.960 Yeah, good evening. 40 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:43.840 I thought for a moment we had lost it before 41 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:49.000 we started there, and I'm sorry, go ahead, welcome, I'm. 42 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.439 Sorry about that. So when we talk about out migration, 43 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.840 we're talking about residents picking up their roots and leaving 44 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.120 the state, And there's obviously a lot of reasons that 45 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.039 someone might do that. And like you said, Master'stts is 46 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:05.000 a great state for a lot of different reasons. We 47 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.960 have great jobs, we have a lot of economic opportunities, 48 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:13.360 we have the Berkshires, wonderful natural resources. But there are 49 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:16.639 also a lot of issues that are affecting everyday people. 50 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.039 The cost of living here, the cost of housing, taxes 51 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:26.280 that are pushing people out of the state, and they're 52 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:29.840 deciding to locate elsewhere that's more affordable. 53 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.439 So this what attracted you that you've done a study 54 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:36.919 on this? What it? There must have been something that 55 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:40.960 attracted you to this study and and and said to yourself, well, 56 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.000 well let me see that if I can prove or 57 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.879 disprove this thesis. 58 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:51.759 Yeah, I think we got a little of. 59 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:52.520 A delay here. 60 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:54.159 Do you want to hit it right now? 61 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:59.360 Let me ask you, there seems to be a delay here. 62 00:03:58.240 --> 00:03:59.960 You want to hit I'm just not myself. 63 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.039 You're just on your cell phone, Okay, no problem, I'm just. 64 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:04.280 On my. 65 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:12.919 Go ahead, apologies about that. So I think the issue 66 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:17.959 is that really attracted me to this and to the 67 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:22.279 pioneer in researching this is that a lot of people 68 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.000 across the state are kind of feeling the cost pressures, 69 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.319 and we wanted to see to what extent people were 70 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:34.759 making decisions about leaving Massachusetts as a result of those. 71 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:37.600 So I think everybody understands that we're having a bit 72 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:42.560 of a housing crunch. Housing is very unaffordable. You know, 73 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.920 the median rent for a two venter apartment in Greater 74 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:52.120 Boston is thirty two hundred dollars a month. It's the 75 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:56.000 you know, single family homes are difficult to buy because 76 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.879 there's so expensive. There's a lot of taxes. Master's is 77 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.759 very uncompetitive with other states in our tax rates, and 78 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.160 we want to know that it's a very difficult decision 79 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.920 for people, for someone to uproot themselves and leave, and 80 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.199 we want to know to what extent these factors are 81 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:19.720 pushing people out and not attracting other people back in. 82 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.319 Okay, some of the high tax states around the country. 83 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:27.040 We think of New York, California, and Hawaii and you 84 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:30.920 mentioned them in your report. They have a drain of people. 85 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.439 We have a drain of people. We do not have 86 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:37.519 large families anymore, with five or six kids. That's a 87 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:42.680 rare exception. So we actually at a time when we 88 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:47.839 should be increasing population, although we are, we have had 89 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.439 an influx of people coming to the state recently from 90 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:53.279 across the border and from Texas and places like that. 91 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:56.079 Bottom line is, we are not growing as a state, 92 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.160 and we haven't been growing as a state compared to 93 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:00.759 other states for a long time. And the reason I 94 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.199 know that is when I started in this business a 95 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.920 long time ago, we used to have sixteen members of 96 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.959 the House of Representatives. We're now down to nine. Because 97 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.040 of course that's all based on population around the country. 98 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:20.120 But what you found was that thousands of people are 99 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:24.759 leaving Massachusetts, people who have established themselves. And the thing 100 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:28.319 that's most frightening is that, based upon the graphs and 101 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:32.319 charts that I've seen of the people who were leaving 102 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.399 Massachusetts who left in twenty twenty two, more than fifty 103 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:41.240 percent of those people who left Massachusetts were high earners, 104 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.959 meaning they were making over two hundred thousand dollars two 105 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.959 hundred thousand dollars or more a year. And when you 106 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.759 add in the people who were making between one hundred 107 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.560 and two hundred thousand dollars, which is also a high earner, 108 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:58.639 you can add another twenty five percent. So in in fact, 109 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:03.839 about eighty percent of the of the people who have 110 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:09.319 left Massachusetts in that year twenty twenty two, eighty percent 111 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.120 of them are making upwards of over one hundred thousand dollars. 112 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:19.639 That's an incredible drain of income and ultimately tax revenue. 113 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:27.839 Right, yeah, exactly, And that's amounted to about seventy one 114 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.240 thousand people more people leaving the state than coming in. 115 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:37.480 Since from twenty twenty to twenty twenty two, likely something 116 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:42.120 around the lines of five hundred million dollars of tax revenue. 117 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.959 That has left eleven billion dollars in total income those 118 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.319 tax filers have brought with them to other states when 119 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.120 they left. That's a significant loss for the state. 120 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:54.800 Okay, we're going to drill down on some of the 121 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.959 costs of some of the reasons that the people are leaving. 122 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:02.079 And look that there's a bunch of reasons that maybe 123 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:04.160 some people decide they want to leave for the weather. Well, 124 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.800 we can't change the weather. But the tax structure and 125 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:12.120 all of that in Massachusetts compared to other states is important. 126 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:15.399 We'll talk about that. My guest is with us. He's 127 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.759 with the Pioneer Institute. Aiden En Wright. Are you are 128 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.519 you I assume you're an economist state correct, Yes. 129 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.040 I'm an economic research associate, so economist by training. 130 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:32.080 Okay, excellent. We'll take a very quick break here at nightside. 131 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.600 If you'd like to join the conversation and talk about 132 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:38.399 maybe your decision to leave a state or your decision 133 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:40.759 to stay in a state, feel free. I think it's 134 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.600 something we need to think about here in Massachusetts because 135 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.600 most of us think about our own set of circumstances, 136 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.279 and either we're happy with our own set of circumstances 137 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:54.039 or unhappy or somewhere in the middle. But we're surrounded 138 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.720 by people who are some doing better than us, some 139 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:01.000 doing worse than us. All so, now a bunch of 140 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.480 people who are very successful and also young. We're talking 141 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.519 about people in their twenties and thirties who have decided 142 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.879 Massachusetts is not quite their cup of tea. If you'd 143 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.879 like to add your voice to the conversation, all you 144 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.080 gotta do is dial six one, seven, two, five, four 145 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:20.279 ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten 146 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:25.000 thirty back with Aiden en Wright. This this research study 147 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:30.120 is available from Pioneer Institute. UH It's It's It's It's 148 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.120 good read it's it's a sad story, but it's a 149 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:35.480 good read. Back on Nightside Rent after a couple of 150 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:36.360 brief messages. 151 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.799 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 152 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:46.879 to night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. 153 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:49.159 With me is aiden Enwright. He's with the Pioneer Institute 154 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:56.559 and he has an author uh an article entitled mass 155 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:02.759 out Migration Massachusetts out Migration, Outfit of Wealth and Residents continues. 156 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.320 This is a white paper. It is available by going 157 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:10.039 to Pioneer Institute dot org. You can read it for yourself. 158 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:15.360 But I just think that when you listen and well, 159 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:17.159 when you just read, let me read a little bit 160 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:21.320 of this. Out migration from Massachusetts has been increasing consistently 161 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.960 over the last decade, but since the beginning of the 162 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:28.200 COVID nineteen pandemic in twenty twenty, out migration has surged. 163 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:32.440 From twenty twelve to twenty nineteen, Massachusetts lost ten billion 164 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:38.240 dollars in net adjusted gross income agi from emigrating taxpayers. 165 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:42.080 In just three years. From twenty twenty to twenty twenty two, 166 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:46.440 the state lost an even greater amount ten point six billion, 167 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.480 So it's accelerating. The state lost three point nine billion 168 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:55.320 in adjusted gross income in twenty twenty two alone. Over 169 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.840 twenty twelve to twenty twenty two period, total AGI loss 170 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:05.000 increased fourfold. And to make this wave of outer state 171 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:10.960 migration even a greater concern, it is concentrated among wealthier 172 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.840 tax filers with at least two hundred thousand dollars a 173 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:17.919 yearly income and residents aged twenty six to thirty four. 174 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:23.320 This is a trend, and the sub trend is fighting. 175 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.559 This is not older people in their sixties, seventies, and 176 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.919 eighties deciding to DeCamp to Florida so they can beat 177 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.840 the common health on the estate tax provisions that exist 178 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.559 here in Massachusetts. Is when you started on this and 179 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.039 you didn't have these numbers. This sounds to me like 180 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:47.759 this is a critical problem that no one, no one 181 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.639 in the comonwalth of Massachusetts is currently addressing. How right? 182 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:53.240 How wrong am I on that point? 183 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:02.000 Yeah, it's kind of staggering these trends. You know, Massachusetts 184 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.799 has been using people to a certain extent for many years. 185 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.919 New Hampshire, for example, one out of every four residents 186 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.200 of New Hampshire were originally born in Massachusetts. That's how 187 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.679 many people we've lost in New Hampshire. But the huge 188 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.159 surge in the last couple of years is like something 189 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:25.039 that we haven't seen before, and there's not really a 190 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.639 lot that's been going on to address it. The legislature 191 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.279 has tried a couple of different solutions, but just not 192 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.919 to the extent that's necessary to exact to you know, 193 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.279 kind of stem this tide of people leaving the state. 194 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.639 Well, we just on a ballot initiative in twenty twenty 195 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:49.120 two approved the so called millionaires tax, so that now 196 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:53.000 people who are earning over a million dollars, instead of 197 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:57.279 paying five with the flag graduated state income tax, they're 198 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:00.960 now charged nine percent on anything over a million dollars. 199 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.799 And people who make that sort of money, they're not dumb, 200 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.639 and they're not going to stick around in Massachusetts and 201 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:14.320 pay really the equivalent about if someone makes a professional athlete, 202 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:18.440 for example, who makes thirty million dollars, they're going to 203 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:24.080 pay approximately ten million dollars, well, not ten million, ten 204 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:29.080 percent of that thirty million dollars, three million dollars in 205 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.679 state taxes in Massachusetts playing for the Red Sox, the Bruins, 206 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.960 the Patriots, or the Celtics if they played in Florida, 207 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:41.720 or in Texas or in Tennessee, that money would not 208 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.879 go to the state because or they don't have they 209 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.279 don't have the equivalent of state income taxes there. And 210 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.360 by the way, that is going to cost our professional 211 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.559 sports teams. And it's already been raised by some of 212 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.559 the professional sports agents. And I know most people could 213 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.879 care less about the the athlete who make you know, 214 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:05.799 mega millions of dollars. But we've always prided ourselves on 215 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:10.519 having you know, great competitive teams, and we're going to 216 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.399 be losing a lot of these athletes when it comes 217 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.879 time for contract renewals on this Why wouldn't athletes stay 218 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:21.519 in Massachusetts play for Massachusetts team knowing that essentially ten 219 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.039 percent of their salary is going to go out the 220 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.879 window before they even get it. Explain that one to 221 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:27.879 my audience. 222 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:31.799 Yeah, exactly. 223 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:34.720 That's something that a lot of people in the sports 224 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:39.000 scene have raised, something that Phil Policheck has mentioned recently 225 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.200 that it's been harder to kind of attract star athletes 226 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.600 into Massachusetts because of the additional tax. And there's also 227 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:53.279 been there are certified public accountants in Massachusetts and they've 228 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:57.360 recently been surveying a lot of their high income clients, 229 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:02.240 and sixty four percent of them said that the surtax 230 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.200 alone is a reason that they're considering leaving the state. 231 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:10.200 And it's not just the surtax. A lot of states, 232 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.159 more than half of the states in the country, don't 233 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:16.039 have an estate tax attacks on someone's home after they 234 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:21.720 die and other wealth Massachusetts does, and it has one 235 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.960 of the lowest thresholds in the country. We also have 236 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.799 a short term capital gains tax. Most states align their 237 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:34.480 capital gains tax at the same level for short term 238 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.679 and long term. We also have other business taxes that 239 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:42.159 disportunately affect high income people here, and so it's kind 240 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:45.919 of a confluence of factors, and it just doesn't make 241 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.399 economic sense to stay here or to locate here, especially 242 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:51.519 if you're like an athlete. 243 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.720 Yeah, and I think that we have a lot of 244 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.919 politicians who look at the wealthy people in Massachusetts as 245 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.200 cash cows, and and in that group, obviously you have 246 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.679 a lot of professional athletes who earn their money here. 247 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:10.159 So therefore they are caught in that in that dilemma. 248 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.679 But when they have a choice to play for another 249 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.480 team in another another state that is much more tax friendly, 250 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.759 they're going to relocate. It's it's as simple as that. 251 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:22.960 My guest is Aiden, and right, Aiden, we have a 252 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.240 whole bunch of phone calls here and I want to 253 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.759 get to all of them. Mike, Matt Sorgia, and we'll 254 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:33.360 start with Kathleen. You can ask questions, you can make comments. Uh, 255 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.919 let's start the conversation part of our interview with Aiden 256 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.080 and Wright of the Pioneer Institute right after the news 257 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:42.639 at the bottom of the hour. My name is Dan 258 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.320 Ray and this is Nightside, and we're trying to make 259 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.720 you think. Okay, that's all we're trying to do. You 260 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:54.840 may come to the absolute different conclusion than Aidan and 261 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.559 I probably would come to. But as long as you 262 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.600 think and get and get to that conclusion, I'm We'll 263 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:01.759 be back on Nightside after this. 264 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.920 You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w z 265 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:08.559 Boston's news radio. 266 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.799 Britdie takes some phone calls. My guest is Aiden Enright. 267 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:19.720 He has produced a very thoughtful paper for the Pioneer Institute, 268 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.039 which you can read yourself at Pioneer Institute dot org. 269 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:28.599 It is just it's entitled mass Out Migration Paper. It 270 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.440 is a frightening look into the last twelve or so 271 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.119 years in this commonwealth under the leadership of both Republican 272 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.440 and Democratic governors. By the way, it doesn't really matter 273 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:45.680 if the legislature itself is a way to the left 274 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:52.680 politically in Massachusetts. And at this point, people, particularly young 275 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.440 people according to this report, meaning in the ages of 276 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.279 twenty six to thirty four, who are making over two 277 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.559 hundred thousand dollars a leaving this eight and that does 278 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:04.599 not argue well for the future. So let's go first 279 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.720 off to New Jersey where Kathleen awaits. Hey, Kathleen, welcome 280 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:10.480 to Night Side. Thanks for calling in. You're all with 281 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:11.200 Aiden En Wright. 282 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:13.759 Hi, Dan, can you hear me? 283 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.599 I can hear you just perfectly. I don't know have 284 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:19.759 I ever had the pleasure of you calling this show 285 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:20.799 from Jersey before? 286 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.599 Yes, I have a house in Massachusetts and I also 287 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.200 have one down in South Jersey, and tonight I'm driving 288 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:29.799 down to the South Jersey home. 289 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.920 All right, Well, welcome, welcome. I'm delighted that you're joining 290 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.480 us and you've got Aiden En Wright's full attention. What's 291 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:36.440 your comment or question? 292 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.240 Yes, so I'm curious to know. I think I've seen 293 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:43.720 it from experience. I'm older than that twenty eight and 294 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:44.759 thirty four. 295 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.480 Age groups aren't well lately, and I. 296 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:51.079 Know, h serious place to be that young again. But 297 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.359 I've noticed a lot of the twenty age to thirty 298 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.759 four year old, especially in that income bracket, are working 299 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:03.799 for certain intersties like high tech pharmaceuticals, and those companies 300 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.759 are relocating out of mass for a number of reasons. 301 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.920 And I've noticed that they're like moving, especially Texas, Arizona, 302 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:17.039 parts of the Midwest. Could that be why we have 303 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.839 this influx of people in that gage group migrating out 304 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:23.119 stands well, let's. 305 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:27.799 See, is this a function of individual choices or a 306 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.720 company decisions to relocate that's Kathleen's question, or a combination thereof, 307 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:34.559 and which is which is a heavier factor? 308 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:37.880 Yeah, I think it's I think it's some kind of 309 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.920 combination of the two. Obviously, there are certain businesses relocating 310 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:45.440 to states that have lower taxes corporate taxes and other 311 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.519 kinds of things, and where jobs are, that's where people 312 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.440 are going to locate to. You also kind of have 313 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.279 this rise of remote work. There's a lot of fully 314 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.400 remote workers in Massachusetts or even people who are working 315 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:04.160 for companies that are located here have additional freedom, especially 316 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:09.680 those younger people, to relocate to more cost effective states 317 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:14.839 where they can have a Massachusetts income but live somewhere 318 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.640 where that income goes a lot further. So I think 319 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.119 for a lot of people it's kind of a no 320 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:21.079 brainer decision. 321 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:23.759 But a lot of those people, if they're working for 322 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.799 Massachusetts companies, even though they're living in Florida or Arizona, 323 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.400 they're paying state taxes to Massachusetts. If that money is 324 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.839 earned and paid by Massachusetts. 325 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:38.240 Corporation, yeah, they would be paying some state taxes, but 326 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:43.160 any of their other contributions, and if they're bringing some 327 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:47.119 other kind of business with them, or the money that 328 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.519 they're spending in their local communities and other things like that, 329 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:51.480 that's leading the state. 330 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.160 Okay, Kathleen, that's a really good question. You got to 331 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:56.680 follow up. 332 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.480 Yeah, I wondered then if this age group between twenty 333 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.279 eight and thirty four, let's be honest, that's usually a 334 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.680 child bearing age or a you know, child making age, 335 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:16.079 then are they not enrolling their children in Massachusetts schools? 336 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.240 For instance, in a lot of cities and sounds like 337 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:21.160 I live at my home in Kingsboro, we're building a 338 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:24.559 very large middle school to accommodate the number of children 339 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.319 that they're projecting to go into the middle school. So 340 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.440 now I've seen around me all these different communities building 341 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:36.599 no middle schools, elementary schools, high schools, projecting these children 342 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.880 and now there's going to be dropped in the population. 343 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:43.839 So then what impact does that have on the rate payers? 344 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:47.480 Stay behind dan because these schools have been built. 345 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:49.319 Now it's not going to get better. 346 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:54.160 Go ahead, No, certainly. 347 00:21:54.640 --> 00:22:00.160 You know, the child age population in Massachusetts as largely decreasing. 348 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.160 A lot of people are deciding to go to different 349 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:06.880 states because if you're going to buy a single family 350 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:08.559 home or something like that and you want to raise 351 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.279 a family, it's a lot more affordable elsewhere, and so 352 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.640 the people who are here for making those types of 353 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.640 investments are going to shoulder more of that burden and 354 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:18.359 that's not there. 355 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.680 And there's also a lot of parents in Massachusetts who 356 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.400 are now homeschooling kids as well, So that's a factor 357 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:28.200 in terms of dwindling a public school population. Kathleen, I 358 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:30.319 loved your questions, and I thank you for being such 359 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.160 a loyal nightside listener. How's the signal coming in in 360 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:34.279 your car down in Jersey. 361 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.079 I'm actually coming in pretty good consider and I'm going 362 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.759 through thirty five to forty mile an hour on Wednesday, 363 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.240 but at least I'm not getting to know. 364 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.839 Okay, great, We'll have safe travels and we'll be here 365 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.599 till midnight for you to keep your company. 366 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.279 Okay, all right, thank you. 367 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:51.160 I appreciate it. 368 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:51.559 Thank you. 369 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:53.920 It's a great topic and I appreciate the time. 370 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.880 Thanks, Kathleen, appreciate your call. Let's keep rolling here. Going 371 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:02.440 to go next to a sword jump who is in Mansfield, Massachusetts, 372 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.319 a little closer to home. So what's You're welcome? How 373 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.599 are you? 374 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:05.720 Hey? 375 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:06.920 Dan? How's it going tonight? 376 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.480 It's going great, going great, Sogia. You're on with aiden En? Right, 377 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:11.640 what's your comment of question? 378 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:12.920 Yeah? 379 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:15.440 Really quick, Aiden, I was able to find the piece, 380 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.599 so it's definitely an interesting piece and I want to 381 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:21.319 read it when I get a chance. But you know, Dan, 382 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.200 I'm obviously a big Boston sports fan and wanted to 383 00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:28.400 kind of attack it from the sports perspective. And you know, 384 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:32.359 I don't know if you can really compare like the 385 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.200 California tax situation to Massachusetts, but like for example. 386 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:44.440 California, California is even worse than Massachusetts. But but, but Florida, Texas. 387 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.920 There are a bunch of states where professional sports teams 388 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.960 in you know, various leagues exist if it's a choice, 389 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.400 if taxes, taxes in California, that's why a lot of 390 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.839 people are leaving California. They're losing population out there. They're 391 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.680 faster than Massachusets on a per capita basis, right, And you. 392 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:05.960 Know, as a big Celtics fan, you know, we're very 393 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.240 fortunate that JB and JT locked up those massive kind 394 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:17.279 of extensions. But they've actually done kind of some calculations 395 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:21.880 on that the take home of these big contracts, Like 396 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:25.119 you're lucky if you take even fifty percent home. And 397 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.359 you know, it's getting to a point where, like the 398 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:31.079 Patriots are coming up on a big off season, so 399 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.720 you hope that you're able to get the big guys. Obviously, 400 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:38.359 the Red Sox right now are in the Wan Soto situation, 401 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:40.759