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<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're live. How does William Ramsey Welcome to William

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<v Speaker 1>Ramsey Investigates on today's show. I have a returning guest,

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<v Speaker 1>Professor Darryl L.

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<v Speaker 2>Boch.

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<v Speaker 1>We talked back in July twenty second, twenty twenty one

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<v Speaker 1>about a book he just published recently titled Cultural Intelligence,

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<v Speaker 1>Living for God in a Diverse, pluralistic World. But today

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk about a book, a second edition

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<v Speaker 1>that he published in twenty seventeen titled Jesus according to Scripture,

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<v Speaker 1>Restoring the Portrait from the Gospels, very detailed scholarly inquiry

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<v Speaker 1>into kind of early church and how the Gospels were

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<v Speaker 1>put together. But doctor Bach has earned recognition as a

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<v Speaker 1>Humboldt Scholar from Tubajin University in Germany and is the

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<v Speaker 1>author of over forty books, including well regarded commentaries on

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<v Speaker 1>Luke and Axe and studies of the historical Jesus, and

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<v Speaker 1>work in cultural engagement. As host of the Seminary's Table podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>he was President of the Evangelical Theological Society from two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand to two thousand and one, writes for the Christianity

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<v Speaker 1>Today's Places and Space series, and serves on the boards

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<v Speaker 1>of Wheaton College, Chosen People Ministries, the Institute for Global Engagement,

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<v Speaker 1>and Christians in Public Service. His articles appear in leading publications.

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<v Speaker 1>He's often an expert on the media in New Testament issues,

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<v Speaker 1>and doctor Bock has been a New York Times bestselling

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<v Speaker 1>author and non fiction and is Elder emeritus at Trinity

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<v Speaker 1>Fellowship Church in Dallas. And you can see kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a list of his books that I included in my

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<v Speaker 1>earlier interview with him in July. So I suggest people

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<v Speaker 1>go back and listen to again. That book is Cultural Intelligence,

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<v Speaker 1>but this one is Jesus according to Scripture, restoring the

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<v Speaker 1>portrait from the Gospel. So doctor Darryl L.

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<v Speaker 2>Bacher, there I am in good day.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, good day to you. Thanks for returning, and for

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<v Speaker 1>people who may not have caught the earlier interview that

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<v Speaker 1>we did, can you talk all about culture Intelligence and

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<v Speaker 1>also what led you conduct to write or re edit

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<v Speaker 1>this book Jesus according.

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<v Speaker 2>To script Yeah. Well, cultural Intelligence is a short theology

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<v Speaker 2>of cultural engagement, and it really makes the argument that

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<v Speaker 2>considered biblically, the way we have gone about cultural engagement

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<v Speaker 2>in the church is not properly biblically aligned. As a result,

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing as much damage as we are good in

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<v Speaker 2>the effort. And so it's an attempt to explain why

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<v Speaker 2>that is and to really correct a misdirection that we have,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly with regard to the tone of the way we

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<v Speaker 2>engage in the way in which we look at issues.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that book is about a year old, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's been out and I've literally been speaking around the

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<v Speaker 2>country on it in the last year. Jesus according to

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<v Speaker 2>Scripture was originally a bigger book, I believe it or not,

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<v Speaker 2>in that when we did the second edition, we split

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<v Speaker 2>it into two parts. Jesus according to Scripture, which works

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<v Speaker 2>through every gospel passage in all four Gospels in detail,

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<v Speaker 2>with an event, even if it's reed, being examined in

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<v Speaker 2>its gospel context each time it appears. And then the

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<v Speaker 2>second book is called Jesus God Man, which puts everything

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<v Speaker 2>that's in the Gospels together in one place and kind

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<v Speaker 2>of does a short here's the theological emphasies that come

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<v Speaker 2>out of the gospels when you work with them altogether.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to do two things. I'm trying, on the

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<v Speaker 2>one hand, to show what is consistent across the gospels,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet at the same time show is what is

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<v Speaker 2>distinct within them at the same time, because normally what

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<v Speaker 2>people do when they read the Gospels, particular, if they're

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<v Speaker 2>reading the same event between the gospels, they make what

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<v Speaker 2>I call gospels stew. They bring out the pot, they

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<v Speaker 2>pour a little bit of Matthew, a little bit of Mark,

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<v Speaker 2>and a little bit of Luke in its stir fry

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<v Speaker 2>and deliver. And part of the point that I'm trying

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<v Speaker 2>to make is that each story has its emphasis, and

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<v Speaker 2>appreciating that emphasis means that what the way Luke may

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<v Speaker 2>do it and the way Matthew or Mark may do

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<v Speaker 2>it may be different enough to appreciate what those differences

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<v Speaker 2>are at the same time. Now, in saying that, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not saying the difference is something that's in contradiction. But

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<v Speaker 2>they actually compliment one another in their portraits, and they

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<v Speaker 2>help to fill out who Jesus is. So I like

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<v Speaker 2>to make the analogy it's like listening to Jesus in

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<v Speaker 2>quadrophonic sound. Each speaker is doing its own thing with Jesus,

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<v Speaker 2>and the mixture also works. So that's that's the point

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<v Speaker 2>of the approach of the book.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And some people believe that if they're not telling

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<v Speaker 1>the same story. They're contradicting each other. So you see

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<v Speaker 1>that alternate kind of view of the early Gospels in

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<v Speaker 1>your introduction, I mean you actually talk about the four

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<v Speaker 1>corners of the Earth kind of like the four Gospels.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you describe to people what the Synoptic Gospels are,

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<v Speaker 1>how John is different, and where they're where they think

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<v Speaker 1>they came from.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, the Synoptic Gospels. Synoptic is actually made up

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<v Speaker 2>of two Greek words, one of which we recognize, the

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<v Speaker 2>word optic. I mean you go to an optometrist to

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<v Speaker 2>get your eyes looked at. So the word soon means together.

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<v Speaker 2>So these are gospels that can be seen together. They

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<v Speaker 2>fit together because they overlap so much. That's Matthew, Mark

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<v Speaker 2>and Luke. Matthew Mark and Luke are the Synoptic Gospels.

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<v Speaker 2>And when people say Synoptic Gospels, it's a shorthand for

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<v Speaker 2>not having go on and say, well, I'm talking about

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<v Speaker 2>Matthew Mark and Luke. John is viewed on its own.

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<v Speaker 2>And part of this has to do with the way

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<v Speaker 2>at least it's the argument of the book is that

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<v Speaker 2>the Synoptic Gospels tend to tell the story of Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>from the Earth up They start with categories that we're

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<v Speaker 2>mostly used to, with the virgin birth being a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of an exception, telling you something unusual is going on,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you watch it dawn on people who Jesus is.

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<v Speaker 2>Because the challenge of Jesus, of course, is these most

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<v Speaker 2>unique human being who's ever walked the earth. He is

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<v Speaker 2>one in a gazillion, and a gazillion's a big number.

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<v Speaker 2>My point is is that no one combines divinity and

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<v Speaker 2>humanity and this person like Jesus did, and so that

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<v Speaker 2>makes him completely exceptional in one sense. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>challenges of the church is how to communicate that to

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<v Speaker 2>somebody that Jesus is a human being different than the

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<v Speaker 2>human being has ever walked the earth. And then the

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<v Speaker 2>second John does it either way around. John just says

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<v Speaker 2>the synopsis from the Earth up, John is from Heaven down.

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<v Speaker 2>So John opens in the beginning was the Word, and

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<v Speaker 2>the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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<v Speaker 2>This is CNN. I mean from the very first verse,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what John's thesis point is and where he's

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<v Speaker 2>taking you. He doesn't develop it or hide it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>right there up front. And the other point of the

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<v Speaker 2>book is to argue that the Church is used to

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<v Speaker 2>the second version of the Jesus story, the John version

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<v Speaker 2>of Jesus story. We like John because John does all

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<v Speaker 2>our heavy lifting for us. But most people who come

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<v Speaker 2>to Jesus, in fact, everyone who comes to Jesus comes

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<v Speaker 2>to Jesus through the first means of the synoptics. We

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<v Speaker 2>all have to have who Jesus is explained to us

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<v Speaker 2>and his uniqueness explained us. No one is born gets

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<v Speaker 2>the swat of life and goes when when when Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>is the sac of person, the ontological trinity, When when

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<v Speaker 2>no one starts off with that understanding of Jesus, they

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<v Speaker 2>have to have someone explain the uniqueness of Jesus to them.

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<v Speaker 2>And part of the premise of the book is to

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<v Speaker 2>argue the church needs to learn how to retell the

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<v Speaker 2>story of Jesus in that first form, in that earth

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<v Speaker 2>up form, which actually connects with what people need when

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<v Speaker 2>they hear about Jesus. And we tend to do it

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<v Speaker 2>in that second form, in the Johanna in form. And

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<v Speaker 2>when we do that, we are asking, actually asking people

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<v Speaker 2>to leap over tall theological buildings in a single bound.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's probably not the best way to think

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<v Speaker 2>about how to present Jesus, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean you go into detail about the origins,

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<v Speaker 1>the orality, and the written stuff. You mentioned the name

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<v Speaker 1>I'd never heard of, poppy Us. Can you kind of

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<v Speaker 1>talk about how the genesis of the Gospels took place?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the news section in the second edition is about

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<v Speaker 2>all that. It's the stuff that people never think about

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<v Speaker 2>in asking how do we get the Gospels? Now? The

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<v Speaker 2>reason we don't tend not to think about it, if

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<v Speaker 2>we're conservative Christians is is that we tend to just

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<v Speaker 2>put it all under the idea of well, God inspired

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<v Speaker 2>the Word, so God is responsible for the production of

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<v Speaker 2>the Gospels. But there actually was a social, historical, cultural

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<v Speaker 2>environment in which the Gospels were nurtured, and we take

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty close look at that. So I'm looking at

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<v Speaker 2>things what I call minding the gap. There's a gap

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<v Speaker 2>between the time the events took place and the time

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<v Speaker 2>they were recorded in the Gospel about thirty to sixty

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<v Speaker 2>years thirty years generally speaking for the Synoptics, sixty years

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<v Speaker 2>for the Gospel of John. And then what skeptics do

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<v Speaker 2>as they say, look, we've got this sixty year gap

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<v Speaker 2>in which nothing's written down the stories are circulating orally,

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<v Speaker 2>they can be played with and what you end up

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<v Speaker 2>with is not necessarily what you had at the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>And so they exploit that gap. This is why I

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<v Speaker 2>call it minding the gap. And so we go through

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<v Speaker 2>a great detailed explanation of how orality worked, thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>issues tied to memory and the way memory has been studied,

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledging the fact that in most cases, when we have memory,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly from long ago, memory can leak. So how do

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<v Speaker 2>you deal with that. The way you remember things twenty

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<v Speaker 2>or thirty years down the road isn't necessarily the way

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<v Speaker 2>you would have remembered it at the time. That kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing, This has been studied, and we go through

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<v Speaker 2>those studies and wrestle with those questions, and we talk

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<v Speaker 2>about things like the Apostolic oversight of the Gospels and

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<v Speaker 2>the way the tradition was handled orally, the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>Jews had experience with handling oral things when they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to preserve memory, that kind of thing, and we go

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<v Speaker 2>through that space. So how does Papiis check in? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>he checks in because he tells us certain things about

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<v Speaker 2>the origins of the Gospel. Perhaps the most important thing

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<v Speaker 2>that he tells us is that Mark was very closely

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<v Speaker 2>tied to Peter. And because Mark is generally regarded by

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<v Speaker 2>scholars as the first Gospel written, the quality of the

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<v Speaker 2>tradition that we see encapsulated in Mark becomes very important

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<v Speaker 2>for thinking through the historical roots of the gospels and

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<v Speaker 2>where they come from. And Papius is very clear that

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<v Speaker 2>Mark wrote down his gospel having heard Peter's preaching, which

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<v Speaker 2>is important and so and it suggests the Apostolic roots

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<v Speaker 2>of the gospel tradition. Two of the Gospels are attributed

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<v Speaker 2>primarily to people who are Apostolic figures, Matthew and John.

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<v Speaker 2>Mark has this close relationship with Peter and is very

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<v Speaker 2>very aware of the early church tradition because he hung

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<v Speaker 2>out with all of them. So it's a very very

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<v Speaker 2>important set of features that we're talking about. And another

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<v Speaker 2>thing about the tradition that's important is the tradition stays honest.

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<v Speaker 2>And here's what I mean. For example, with the Gospel

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<v Speaker 2>of Mark. In the tradition, there's a very tight association

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<v Speaker 2>with Peter, and skeptics will like to argue that we

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<v Speaker 2>really don't know who the authors of the gospels are.

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<v Speaker 2>They just attributed names to them. That would raise their stature.

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<v Speaker 2>But if that's the case, the Gospel of Mark should

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<v Speaker 2>be called the Gospel of Peter. But it isn't. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if you had a choice between raising the statue of

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<v Speaker 2>a gospel whose authorship you supposedly don't know, and you

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<v Speaker 2>had a choice between attributing that gospel to Mark, about

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<v Speaker 2>whom we know now almost next to nothing besides the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that he wrote this gospel, we know where he

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<v Speaker 2>is from and that's about it. Or Peter, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>who kind of was one of the big boys in

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<v Speaker 2>the twelve the fault. This should have been called the

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<v Speaker 2>Gospel of Peter, but it wasn't. It was called the

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<v Speaker 2>Gospel of Mark because the tradition was careful about attributing

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<v Speaker 2>the authorship to whom the authorship belonged. And so that's

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<v Speaker 2>a very very important idea as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, at the very beginning, so you see that, and

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned that Luken prologue too, So all these things

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<v Speaker 1>are being verified. But the oral it's interesting that they

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<v Speaker 1>called the gospels the memoirs before they became the.

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<v Speaker 2>Gospels, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're talking like about these things as their memories,

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<v Speaker 1>the first memories, and that you're right in that tradition,

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<v Speaker 1>the Rabbinic tradition that came after, or even the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of Jewish tradition. The oral history and you talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the historiographical context of even the Greeks too, all were

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<v Speaker 1>very orally focused. Memory and stuff like that was much

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<v Speaker 1>different back then.

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<v Speaker 2>Than Yeah, you have to remember that. I mean, we've

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<v Speaker 2>been through at least two major technological innovation since the

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<v Speaker 2>time of the first century. The first was the creation

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<v Speaker 2>of the book. Well, actually I make it three. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, you have papyrus and the way you

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<v Speaker 2>wrote things down. I like to tease people that a

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<v Speaker 2>second century Bible church didn't operate the way the Bible

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<v Speaker 2>Church works today because no one was carrying a New

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<v Speaker 2>Testament in their back pocket. In the second century. It

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<v Speaker 2>was all done by scrolls and it was recorded, and

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<v Speaker 2>that represented the first shift from oral culture to a

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<v Speaker 2>written culture. And the belief of the ancients was you

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<v Speaker 2>were much better hearing the testimony of a live witness

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<v Speaker 2>orally than you were reading something written down. That's an

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<v Speaker 2>important idea. In fact, one of the reasons why the

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<v Speaker 2>Gospels take so long to be written is you still

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<v Speaker 2>had live witnesses to the events, and you didn't start

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<v Speaker 2>recording your gospel until people who had the direct experience

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<v Speaker 2>began to die off because youral culture couldn't apply anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there's that element of what's going on as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So all this is important in setting the background. The

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<v Speaker 2>Second Revolution, of course, was the book next to the pyrus,

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<v Speaker 2>next to the scroll, and then the Third Revolution is

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<v Speaker 2>of course our digital age today with ebooks and that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. Well, every one of those subsequent revolutions

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<v Speaker 2>is designed to I'm going to point a word here,

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<v Speaker 2>or somewhat point a word of context, fossilize a text, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The moment you put it on a scroll or put

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<v Speaker 2>it in a book or digitize it, the text becomes frozen, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Orality allows you to tell a story, develop it, elaborate

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<v Speaker 2>on it, etc. And it was the normal way people

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<v Speaker 2>passed on information in the ancient world because books were

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<v Speaker 2>not at all that common.

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<v Speaker 1>So I like it.

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<v Speaker 2>Whenever I lecture on this, I begin in the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>there was orality. You know that there weren't books. In

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, there were no books or very few, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was very expensive to do. So all of this

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<v Speaker 2>indicates some of the cultural dynamics that are work, that

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<v Speaker 2>are responsible production of our.

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<v Speaker 1>Gospels, right, I mean, And you can even use Christ

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<v Speaker 1>as an example of a very good memory, and you

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<v Speaker 1>actually say he probably repeated some of his stories in

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<v Speaker 1>different places, so his own memory was retelling these stories

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<v Speaker 1>and then passing through almost kind of seating that environment. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that we do in the book

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<v Speaker 2>is to walk people through thinking through this orality thing,

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<v Speaker 2>because the impression is you have the event and then

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<v Speaker 2>thirty to sixty years later they wrote it down. Well, no,

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<v Speaker 2>that isn't what's going on at all. These stories are

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<v Speaker 2>being repeated in churches, they're being told and retold, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>When I lecture on this, I tell the story of

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<v Speaker 2>how my grandkids, before they could ever read or write,

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<v Speaker 2>were big Star Wars fans, and they watched Star Wars

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<v Speaker 2>over and over and over again. They heard the story

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<v Speaker 2>over and over and over again. When my kids were little,

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<v Speaker 2>I used to read Bible stories to them and they

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<v Speaker 2>would hear the story over and over and over again

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<v Speaker 2>because they liked the story and they like to have

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<v Speaker 2>the story read to them at night. So when I

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<v Speaker 2>was a dad reading the story, I would say, sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>have fun because you know, reading the same story over

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<v Speaker 2>and over and over again, it's a parent is not

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<v Speaker 2>exactly an exercise in thrilling joy and stimulation. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're doing it because you love your kids. And I

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<v Speaker 2>would sometimes change the story to see if they were

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<v Speaker 2>with me. Well, the moment I did that, I got

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<v Speaker 2>a very consistent reaction, Daddy, that's not how the story goes.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't said Daddy, that's not how the story goes.

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<v Speaker 2>It was always often said, with some emotion, Daddy, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not how the story goes. And then they would even

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<v Speaker 2>take the next step and tell me how it goes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, because they had heard it so much. So

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<v Speaker 2>this idea of the way a reality functions, the repetition

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<v Speaker 2>of the stories, the repeating of what goes on, the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that you had multiple witnesses to these events who

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<v Speaker 2>were feeding into the tradition. All those things are at

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<v Speaker 2>work that make the tradition different than the simple impression

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<v Speaker 2>that you get, Oh, there was an event that happened

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<v Speaker 2>and someone sat down and remembered it thirty or sixty

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<v Speaker 2>years later.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And now you make an interesting point. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's in chapter three too, that the model of the

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<v Speaker 1>relationship between Christ and his disciples was formal, so they're

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<v Speaker 1>drinking in all that knowledge too, and I think it

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<v Speaker 1>was the scholar ger Hertzen said it was like a collegium,

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<v Speaker 1>or could have been a collegium. So they're intentionally listening,

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<v Speaker 1>like in a form or something like that classical knowledge,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're remembering and that gets passed on.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons you have the twelve is because

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<v Speaker 2>they are supposed to be instructed in what this instruction

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<v Speaker 2>about the kingdom is supposed to be about. And so

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<v Speaker 2>the whole point of the exercising part was that they

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<v Speaker 2>were to oversee this tradition that eventually came out of it,

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<v Speaker 2>which is why when Judas gets replaced in the first

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<v Speaker 2>chapter of Acts, you have someone who's been with us

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<v Speaker 2>from the very beginning. You're looking for someone who really

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<v Speaker 2>knows the whole story, who has, if I can put

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<v Speaker 2>it in sociological terms, who has institutional knowledge about what

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<v Speaker 2>it is that Jesus taught and in that context then

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<v Speaker 2>reassure about what's going on. And so the part of

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<v Speaker 2>the role of being an apostle was to be instructed

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<v Speaker 2>in this teaching and to have been with Jesus for

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<v Speaker 2>three years. There are two points I like to make

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<v Speaker 2>about this. First is to remember that we actually don't

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<v Speaker 2>have anything directly written to us by Jesus himself, so

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<v Speaker 2>everything's mediated that we receive. That's the first point. And

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<v Speaker 2>I actually was in a forum at the University of

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<v Speaker 2>Michigan with a professor talking about this historiographically with graduate students,

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<v Speaker 2>in which he was making this point, we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>anything directed from Jesus. How can we be sure that

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<v Speaker 2>what we have about Jesus is actually reflective of him?

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good question, it's a fair question. And so

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<v Speaker 2>so I turned to the to the to the seminar

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<v Speaker 2>discussion we were having. It just happened. He happened to

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<v Speaker 2>have twelve students in the room, and so I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you have these twelve students, most of them are taking

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<v Speaker 2>doctoral courses. They're going to be with you for three years.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think after those three years being with you

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<v Speaker 2>in class after class they can talk about what you

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<v Speaker 2>taught And just left the question there for them to ponder, So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, So that's that's the scenario that we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about people who are deeply, not just casually acquainted with Jesus,

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<v Speaker 2>the people who are deeply immersed in what it was

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing and saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, following him around, being with him daily. There's all

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<v Speaker 1>the sastratories through the gospels.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this wasn't This wasn't a nine to ten nine

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<v Speaker 2>o'clock to ten twenty five class on a Tuesday Thursday.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, this was this was life immersion that we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it's important too, because, at least in

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<v Speaker 1>my life, you just hear all of these criticisms and

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<v Speaker 1>context that these gospels came up out of nowhere, and

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<v Speaker 1>this book really refutes those over and over again with

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<v Speaker 1>so many examples of morality collegium. So it's really a

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<v Speaker 1>fantastic introduction. And then you kind of move through and

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<v Speaker 1>start talking. You've talked a little bit on the intro

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<v Speaker 1>about the gospels, but can you kind of just go

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<v Speaker 1>in in deeper before you kind of get into the

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<v Speaker 1>text of the gospels.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Sure. The main thing to realize is this earth

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<v Speaker 2>up versus heaven down picture that I'm trying to use,

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<v Speaker 2>and what you see in the Synoptic Gospels. You watch

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<v Speaker 2>it dawn on people who Jesus is, you know, so

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<v Speaker 2>he calms the winds and the waves. And how does

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<v Speaker 2>that passage close, Well, it closes by saying this who's

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<v Speaker 2>able to command the winds and the waves and they obey?

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<v Speaker 2>And I like to talk a lot about, at least

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<v Speaker 2>when I speak on this orally, I talk about what

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<v Speaker 2>are called cultural scripts. Cultural scripts are things that are

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<v Speaker 2>built into the understanding of the text because the person

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<v Speaker 2>writing and the person reading share the culture. So, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll give an example of a modern cultural script that

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<v Speaker 2>cowboys are going up to the frozen tundra to meet

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<v Speaker 2>the cheeseheads, to beat the cheeseheads. Okay, Now if I

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<v Speaker 2>ask thk you what that sentence is about, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>culturally aware, okay, then you will go. You just talked

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<v Speaker 2>to me about American football. The Dallas Cowboys went up

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<v Speaker 2>to Wisconsin to meet the Green Bay Packers, And I

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<v Speaker 2>know all that from that sentence, and yet the word

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<v Speaker 2>American football is nowhere in that sentence. Okay, So how

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<v Speaker 2>do you know that's about American football? You know that's

395
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<v Speaker 2>about American football because you're triangulating cultural clues, cultural scripts

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<v Speaker 2>that are embedded in the text that send that signal

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<v Speaker 2>to you. And so you're able in shorthand to say

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<v Speaker 2>what I summarized in about three or four sentences in

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<v Speaker 2>one sentence because of the cultural scripts that are embedded

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<v Speaker 2>in it in your understanding of them. Now, if I

401
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<v Speaker 2>gave that sentence to someone learning English in Saudi Arabia

402
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<v Speaker 2>and said, here's a perfectly good in English sentence and

403
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<v Speaker 2>here's a dictionary. Tell me what this sentence means, they

404
00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.839
<v Speaker 2>would have no clue, okay, unless they had some acquaintance

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<v Speaker 2>with American culture that I would look up all the

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<v Speaker 2>words and all the meanings and go, how in the

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<v Speaker 2>world does that sentence fit together? What in the world

408
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<v Speaker 2>is that? That's a bunch of gobblybook, you know, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>An example of the reverse experience would be Ian Botham

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<v Speaker 2>march to the crease to defend the ashes on behalf

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<v Speaker 2>of the Queen. Okay, that's a perfectly wonderful sentence about cricket.

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<v Speaker 2>The test match is at between Australia and England is

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<v Speaker 2>called the ashes. Ian Botham was the captain of the

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<v Speaker 2>English cricket team when I was doing doctoral work in Scotland.

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<v Speaker 2>That kind of thing, again, perfectly good English sentence, but

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<v Speaker 2>you have no clue what it is if you don't

417
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<v Speaker 2>share the culture and thus can recognize the cultural scripts

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<v Speaker 2>that are embedded within it. And my argument is the

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<v Speaker 2>Gospels work with cultural scripts, and if you don't understand

420
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 2>what's embedded in what's being said, you're going to miss

421
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.440
<v Speaker 2>some of what's being said. So let's go back to

422
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.960
<v Speaker 2>the example that I use. He's able to calm the

423
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.359
<v Speaker 2>winds and the waves and they obey it. Well, the

424
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:08.359
<v Speaker 2>cultural script in there is God's in control of the creation. Okay,

425
00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:11.519
<v Speaker 2>this wasn't a case of a miracle. This wasn't a

426
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.119
<v Speaker 2>case of Jesus praying to God and asking the winds

427
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.200
<v Speaker 2>to stop. This wasn't a case of Moses tapping a

428
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.079
<v Speaker 2>rock with an object and asking God to do, you know,

429
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.759
<v Speaker 2>to bring water from the rock. That is what's going

430
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Jesus speaks directly to the creation, and the creation responds,

431
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.640
<v Speaker 2>and so that triggers the question about who Jesus is.

432
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.319
<v Speaker 2>In another Gampo cultural script is the healing of the paralytic. Okay,

433
00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:37.400
<v Speaker 2>they dropped the guy who wants to walk in front

434
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.920
<v Speaker 2>of him. Jesus doesn't deal with his walking initially, he

435
00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.880
<v Speaker 2>deals with his spiritual condition. He says, your sins are forgiven.

436
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Now that's interesting because in one sense it's easy to

437
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.440
<v Speaker 2>say your sins of forgiven. William, I could look at

438
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:52.559
<v Speaker 2>you and say, you know, you look like a wonderful guy,

439
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.079
<v Speaker 2>but I'm really worried about what your soul's like. So

440
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to declare your sins forgiven. Now. Do you

441
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.839
<v Speaker 2>feel any better after I say that to you? No,

442
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.920
<v Speaker 2>because I don't have that authority. Okay, it's a nice

443
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:05.759
<v Speaker 2>thing to say, but it doesn't do anything for you.

444
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:10.519
<v Speaker 2>So Jesus says, Jesus says, your sins are forgiven. The

445
00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.000
<v Speaker 2>paralytics sitting there going, well, that isn't why I crash

446
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.240
<v Speaker 2>this party, that's not why I'm here. I want to walk. Meanwhile,

447
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.759
<v Speaker 2>the theologians in the room get what's going on. They

448
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:23.599
<v Speaker 2>get the script that's being evoked, because they go, no

449
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.799
<v Speaker 2>one can forgive sins but God alone. And so the

450
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.759
<v Speaker 2>gospel writers tell us the cultural script that's being evoked

451
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.839
<v Speaker 2>by what it is that Jesus is doing. And then

452
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:37.279
<v Speaker 2>what does Jesus say. What's easier to say your sins

453
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:39.279
<v Speaker 2>are forgiven? Or get up and walk? Which is actually

454
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>a trick question because in one sense it's easier to

455
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.640
<v Speaker 2>say your sins are forgiven because you can't see it. Okay,

456
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.559
<v Speaker 2>no one's seen forgiveness of sins. Okay, it isn't a

457
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.640
<v Speaker 2>part of the material world in the way that we

458
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.400
<v Speaker 2>think about it. Okay. But if I say to a

459
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.880
<v Speaker 2>paralytic get up and walk, it's showtime. Something's got to happen.

460
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 2>So what Jesus does is then he turns the guy

461
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:02.279
<v Speaker 2>and he says, in order that you might know that

462
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:04.720
<v Speaker 2>the son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,

463
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.640
<v Speaker 2>I say to you, get up and walk. He links

464
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.240
<v Speaker 2>something that you can't see to something that you can

465
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.279
<v Speaker 2>see to show his authority to do something that only

466
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.799
<v Speaker 2>God has the authority to do because of the cultural

467
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:21.039
<v Speaker 2>script in the passage, and all of a sudden, the

468
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Speaker 2>full force of what Jesus is doing comes forward. And

469
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.559
<v Speaker 2>these are little bricks in the chrystological wall to indicate

470
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.960
<v Speaker 2>to you the portrait of who Jesus is. And that's

471
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.319
<v Speaker 2>what that's how the Gospels work in many of their passages.

472
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 2>In many cases, they don't talk about who Jesus is.

473
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.839
<v Speaker 2>They show who Jesus is, and they show who Jesus

474
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.599
<v Speaker 2>is through these cultural scripts that are the commentary on

475
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:49.559
<v Speaker 2>what is going on.

476
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Right, and so those cultural scripts are the history of

477
00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Judaism and kind of the culture leading the.

478
00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:00.240
<v Speaker 2>World, the worldview and the understanding that they have in

479
00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:02.680
<v Speaker 2>the world, which that which is being accepted and played

480
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.079
<v Speaker 2>upon as Jesus is acting because he's he's you know,

481
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:11.279
<v Speaker 2>he's revealing actions and reflecting a theology that exists that's

482
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.480
<v Speaker 2>coming out of Judaism, right, fascinating.

483
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.279
<v Speaker 1>So you see that kind of revelation on the Synoptic

484
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.319
<v Speaker 1>Gospel slowly to the end. The inversion is John, what

485
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:25.039
<v Speaker 1>other kind of elements do you I mean you start off,

486
00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 1>do you want to go forward and tosk start in the

487
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:30.640
<v Speaker 1>context of your book like the birth of Jesus Jesus

488
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.359
<v Speaker 1>according to the Synoptists, or.

489
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what we did in the book. What we did

490
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in the book is to go through. Now, we did

491
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 2>something that the Gospels don't do. If I were if

492
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:43.039
<v Speaker 2>I were to read the book today, I'd still have

493
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 2>this choice, and that would be I could simply go

494
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.759
<v Speaker 2>through the gospels and sequence one after another and tell

495
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:50.599
<v Speaker 2>the stories, and I could have I could have structured

496
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:54.599
<v Speaker 2>it that way. So here, here's Mark, here's Matthew here's Mark,

497
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.559
<v Speaker 2>here's Luke, and here's Joan, and just go through the

498
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.720
<v Speaker 2>stories and sequence. And I could rearrange all the units

499
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:01.440
<v Speaker 2>that I have in the book and just do it

500
00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:03.880
<v Speaker 2>in the sequence that they come in in each gospel.

501
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:05.720
<v Speaker 2>I could have done it that way. Instead, what I

502
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:09.680
<v Speaker 2>did was to take the structure of what's called a synopsis.

503
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 2>A synopsis, and a synopsis is not making chronological judgments.

504
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just making literary sequential judgments about how the three

505
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.559
<v Speaker 2>gospels synoptic gospels relate to each other. And I went through.

506
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.160
<v Speaker 2>I went through the gospels in that sequence. So we

507
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:31.279
<v Speaker 2>started with the empacy material juxtaposed, you know, the sequencing

508
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.799
<v Speaker 2>that's likely between what's going on in Mark and what's

509
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:36.880
<v Speaker 2>going on in Luke. Then we went to Jesus's ministry

510
00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and John the Baptist, and then the Galilean section and

511
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the journey to Jerusalem, and went through those in supposed

512
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.720
<v Speaker 2>potential sequences for what's going on based on the literary

513
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.319
<v Speaker 2>structure of the various gospels. Then finally we come to Jerusalem.

514
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>We structured the Passion week accordingly et cetera, and we met,

515
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:59.000
<v Speaker 2>we meshed Matthew, Mark and Luke together, but always in

516
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.000
<v Speaker 2>a way. If the two gospels had a different placement

517
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.039
<v Speaker 2>for a story or told it in a slightly different way,

518
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.200
<v Speaker 2>that contribution of a particular gospel would be highlighted at

519
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.119
<v Speaker 2>least in one of those retellings. So I'm doing a

520
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff all at once, is the point here.

521
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 2>And the book in some ways isn't designed to be

522
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.599
<v Speaker 2>so much a book that you read through in sequence,

523
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.000
<v Speaker 2>although you can do that as a resource that you

524
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 2>use depending on where you are in the Gospels and

525
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:29.200
<v Speaker 2>what you want to know about it.

526
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.359
<v Speaker 1>Right, So then you can see those little variations in

527
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.200
<v Speaker 1>each sequence you have, and.

528
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>We've play a great deal of attention to those variations.

529
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.319
<v Speaker 2>We spend a lot of time thinking through why did

530
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.079
<v Speaker 2>Matthew say it this way and Mark say it that way?

531
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>That kind of thing, and to really detail that out.

532
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Do you have, like any specific examples of those variances

533
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.160
<v Speaker 1>in the synoptics that come to mind that you find

534
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:57.160
<v Speaker 1>the most interesting?

535
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, okay, so let's do one that's pretty famous

536
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:08.759
<v Speaker 2>when you have Jesus healing the centurion slave. Okay, in

537
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Matthew the centurion in Jesus have a direct conversation with

538
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:19.039
<v Speaker 2>each other. In Luke, the centurion in Jesus never talked

539
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>to each other face to face. It's all done through emissaries.

540
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.880
<v Speaker 2>How the world does that work? Okay? I mean that's

541
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 2>that's two very different portraits of what's going on. Well,

542
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a cultural script embedded in that text, which is

543
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:38.279
<v Speaker 2>that if I send someone in my name to represent

544
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:42.640
<v Speaker 2>me what's called a shaliah, then even though they're speaking,

545
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.160
<v Speaker 2>it's as good as my speaking. Okay, I'm being represented

546
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.039
<v Speaker 2>by them, much like the way we would say a

547
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:53.279
<v Speaker 2>press secretary represents the White House. Okay. So what you

548
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.920
<v Speaker 2>get in Matthew and Matthew tends to do this. He

549
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.400
<v Speaker 2>tends to simplify his stories and in some cases compact them.

550
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:04.279
<v Speaker 2>And so in this more compact version, Matthew is simply

551
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:06.920
<v Speaker 2>interested in the fact that the centurion in Jesus had

552
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:12.759
<v Speaker 2>a exchange of ideas, okay, and he leaves the emissaries

553
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.880
<v Speaker 2>out okay. In the Luke And version. One of the

554
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>important themes in Luke Ax is how how God has

555
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.759
<v Speaker 2>brought you in gentile together, and so we have we

556
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 2>have Jewish emissaries representing a gentile soldier. So that's an

557
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:33.000
<v Speaker 2>important detail to put together, and in putting that detail together,

558
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.799
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, Luke's able to make an additional

559
00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:38.519
<v Speaker 2>point besides what happened within the event, Oh, Jesus held

560
00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:42.160
<v Speaker 2>healed the centurion son, and the centurion had a faith

561
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>that was really unprecedented in Israel for the way he trusted,

562
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.960
<v Speaker 2>for how Jesus did this to and look at how

563
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Jews and Gentiles can get along, okay, And he can

564
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.079
<v Speaker 2>put that next to next to the portrait. So that's

565
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:00.240
<v Speaker 2>an example of a difference in which each author is doing,

566
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.960
<v Speaker 2>is trying to bring something to the portrait that the

567
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.400
<v Speaker 2>other author might not have noted.

568
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Was there anything in your research when the Synoptic or

569
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:13.839
<v Speaker 1>even the Gospels were made that they knew of the

570
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.599
<v Speaker 1>other stories? Did you ever get that? I didn't understand.

571
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.359
<v Speaker 1>But what I mean by that question is Matthew, Mark

572
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:23.799
<v Speaker 1>and Luke. Do you think that those variations are because

573
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 1>they saw this story and Mark and Luke made it different,

574
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:28.799
<v Speaker 1>Like my understanding of Luke is a little bit more

575
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:32.680
<v Speaker 1>of a personal account of the Lord than maybe the

576
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.240
<v Speaker 1>other ones were. Christ is interacting with people in more ways.

577
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Do you think those variations are intentional? Does that make sense?

578
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Well? The variations maybe just strictly a function of personality.

579
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:48.079
<v Speaker 2>But having said that, if you're asking generally speaking in

580
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:50.799
<v Speaker 2>New Testament, let's us get discussed. And it's been in

581
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:54.240
<v Speaker 2>and the history of this discussion is long and complex,

582
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.400
<v Speaker 2>but today most scholars think that Mark is the first

583
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:03.319
<v Speaker 2>Gospel that was written, and that Matthew and Luke knew Mark. Okay,

584
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:06.079
<v Speaker 2>then after that the discussion begins. Now, there is an

585
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.279
<v Speaker 2>older form of this that sees Matthew's being the first

586
00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>gospel and Mark coming at the end later on in

587
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:18.759
<v Speaker 2>one way or another. But my own view is is

588
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:20.799
<v Speaker 2>that Mark's likely to be the first gospel. Just look

589
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:24.720
<v Speaker 2>at the infancy material between Jesus, between Matthew and Luke,

590
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.640
<v Speaker 2>and there's very little overlap between those two. So it's

591
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.440
<v Speaker 2>hard for me to believe that if Luke knew Matthew,

592
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.799
<v Speaker 2>he wouldn't have had more of the Mathean infancy content

593
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.599
<v Speaker 2>in his own infancy story, okay, because you either have

594
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:41.720
<v Speaker 2>to believe that he knew it and made a choice

595
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.119
<v Speaker 2>not to mention any of that other fact that Jesus

596
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.319
<v Speaker 2>was born in Bethlehem and to totally ignore that, or

597
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 2>they wrote their stories separate from one another and they

598
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:54.839
<v Speaker 2>don't know each other, okay. And then what that does

599
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.960
<v Speaker 2>then is that there are about two hundred and twenty

600
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:02.680
<v Speaker 2>five verses of Jesus's teaching that lap uniquely between Matthew

601
00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:08.759
<v Speaker 2>and Luke, okay o. Those of that material, a quarter

602
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:14.440
<v Speaker 2>of it's almost verbatim, a quarter another significant percentage is

603
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:18.839
<v Speaker 2>paraphrastically agreed, and then there's a small percentage of it

604
00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:22.160
<v Speaker 2>where there's enough difference that people wonder whether that's part

605
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:26.519
<v Speaker 2>of the collection that Luke and Matthew shared. And so

606
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:31.279
<v Speaker 2>this shared teaching and it's mostly teaching. This shared teaching

607
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.759
<v Speaker 2>has been called by scholars ques for the German word

608
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.960
<v Speaker 2>quella for source. It's a teaching anthology that was circulating

609
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.319
<v Speaker 2>through the church, either in written form or in oral form.

610
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:45.799
<v Speaker 2>We don't know which, maybe even a mix because of

611
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:49.079
<v Speaker 2>the variations that we do see. And so most people

612
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 2>think that Matthew wrote aware of Mark and Q, and

613
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Luke wrote with an awareness of Mark and Q. And

614
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.480
<v Speaker 2>then Matthew had his own set of information that he

615
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:03.359
<v Speaker 2>uniquely had. Of course, as an apostle he could do that,

616
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and Luke had a set of information that he uniquely had.

617
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.400
<v Speaker 2>As a result, of his research, and thus you get

618
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>the differences between those three gospels with all them knowing Mark. Now,

619
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:18.440
<v Speaker 2>those who believe that Matthew be came first have a

620
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:20.840
<v Speaker 2>different way of putting that together. But I think that

621
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.599
<v Speaker 2>the more likely scenario is Mark was the first gospel,

622
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.159
<v Speaker 2>and we're dealing with with the tradition structures in the

623
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.280
<v Speaker 2>way I've just described.

624
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Really fascinating, I mean, it is It is remarkable that

625
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.840
<v Speaker 1>all that information was was being still bandied about. And

626
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.239
<v Speaker 1>I think there was a kind of a an issue

627
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.960
<v Speaker 1>as to why Paul's letters don't reflect so much of

628
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the God, Like why didn't he reference the gospels in detail?

629
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:49.679
<v Speaker 1>Can you talk about that?

630
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's because he doesn't reference to the

631
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:58.760
<v Speaker 2>gospel teaching gospels in detail. On fact, he only alludes clearly.

632
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.360
<v Speaker 2>He alludes clearly to an understanding that he knows what

633
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Jesus taught on divorce. In one Corinthians seven we have

634
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:10.760
<v Speaker 2>some indication of him being aware of Jesus's ethical teachings

635
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.760
<v Speaker 2>and some of the ethical sections of his epistles, particularly

636
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.079
<v Speaker 2>the latter part of Romans, But generally Paul didn't go

637
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.519
<v Speaker 2>around citing Jesus. Now part of The reason is because

638
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:25.719
<v Speaker 2>some of the issues that are being raised with regard

639
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.960
<v Speaker 2>to church practice and that kind of thing weren't issues

640
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 2>that Jesus directly addressed. So that's part of the reason

641
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.559
<v Speaker 2>why you don't see so much of Paul in there.

642
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:40.719
<v Speaker 2>What you do see is an emphasis on forgiveness of

643
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:45.119
<v Speaker 2>sins and the provision of the spirit as the driving

644
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.000
<v Speaker 2>force in faith for a person who responds to the Gospel.

645
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>That overlaps with the themes of the Gospels and the themes

646
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:58.079
<v Speaker 2>of Jesus's teaching. But Paul doesn't go about citing Jesus.

647
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Does He do it in part because because you know,

648
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:05.400
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't He wasn't a disciple in that sense. He

649
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't one of the Twelve. He didn't hang around with

650
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Jesus in his ministry, et cetera. So everything that he

651
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:15.960
<v Speaker 2>knows about Jesus he is absorbed after the fact. That's

652
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:18.599
<v Speaker 2>another element of what's going on between them. He's very

653
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.760
<v Speaker 2>aware of the theology that Jesus is teaching, but he

654
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:26.039
<v Speaker 2>tends not to cite Jesus as an authority because the issue,

655
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.800
<v Speaker 2>in one sense, once you get past the work of Jesus,

656
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.079
<v Speaker 2>is the message of Jesus, you know about what he

657
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.119
<v Speaker 2>has to say about God and salvation and man and

658
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.320
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing, and so I think you get

659
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.000
<v Speaker 2>some of that going on as well. So that's a

660
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:46.519
<v Speaker 2>whole series of reasons for why we don't get Jesus

661
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:48.400
<v Speaker 2>cited directly by Paul.

662
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.079
<v Speaker 1>And that may be why the Pauline letters are so

663
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.400
<v Speaker 1>potent in a way, because he's take he's the next

664
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 1>step beyond the apostles and of really early churches that

665
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean, even though he was in there, but his

666
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.039
<v Speaker 1>view is a much different kind of like you said,

667
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:03.679
<v Speaker 1>much different the.

668
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Old Well, he's at theologian putting the package together and

669
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.760
<v Speaker 2>explaining to someone and he has the benefit, which is

670
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.039
<v Speaker 2>something that we don't see in Jesus. This is another

671
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:14.360
<v Speaker 2>reason why the Gospels are a challenge for people to read,

672
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.320
<v Speaker 2>is that Paul's able to look back I call the

673
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 2>New Testament Epistles the NFL section of the Gossip of

674
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.000
<v Speaker 2>the New Testament. Upon further review, okay, Paul's able to

675
00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:30.760
<v Speaker 2>look back on the totality of jesus ministry, on the

676
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>reality of resurrection and ascension and says, here's what God

677
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.880
<v Speaker 2>was doing when Jesus in the midst of that he

678
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.119
<v Speaker 2>could talk about what was coming and what was ahead,

679
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.800
<v Speaker 2>but no one had experienced it yet, So you've got

680
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.719
<v Speaker 2>that difference in what's going on. So the epistles are

681
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:51.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of an upon for the review section of the

682
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.519
<v Speaker 2>New Testament. By the way, John's Gospel, to a certain extent,

683
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.840
<v Speaker 2>is the same thing John's Gospel. Not only he's written

684
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.920
<v Speaker 2>from heaven down, but it is done with a reflection

685
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 2>of the totality of Jesus ministry, very much in John's head,

686
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.079
<v Speaker 2>because you have a choice. When I tell a story

687
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.760
<v Speaker 2>about what someone has done in the past, I can

688
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:12.039
<v Speaker 2>tell it from the standpoint of this is how his

689
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.639
<v Speaker 2>experience while it was happening, with all the gaps in

690
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:18.920
<v Speaker 2>our knowledge that that represents, or I can tell it

691
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.480
<v Speaker 2>in light of the whole of what I know eventually happened.

692
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.320
<v Speaker 2>The synoptics are more of the first, and the John

693
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.559
<v Speaker 2>is more of the second. So John is upon the

694
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.519
<v Speaker 2>upon further review gospel, okay, just like the epistles are

695
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.159
<v Speaker 2>upon further ofview. Theology of the of the New Testament

696
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:37.840
<v Speaker 2>period of the Jesus ministry.

697
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.519
<v Speaker 1>Right, it is remarkable, and John is a little It

698
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.519
<v Speaker 1>is not only different stands alone. But I think some

699
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.039
<v Speaker 1>of the ideas of I've remember correctly like he integrated

700
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 1>almost kind of a some people have likened it to

701
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.039
<v Speaker 1>kind of like a Greek philosophy kind of of you

702
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.599
<v Speaker 1>do you hold that opinion? Or why is he so

703
00:38:56.679 --> 00:38:57.800
<v Speaker 1>different than the other three?

704
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, because he's more direct, He's he's communicating very directly

705
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and from the very beginning what he's doing. And he's

706
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 2>doing that with an awareness of what is all, what

707
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:14.239
<v Speaker 2>is all about, what's wrapped up theologically fully in what's

708
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 2>going on. He's less concerned to tell the story about

709
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:22.199
<v Speaker 2>how it dawns on people. Okay, He's more concerned to

710
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.159
<v Speaker 2>tell the story this is what they should see.

711
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, Professor, great conversation, really fascinating, and really I really

712
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:34.760
<v Speaker 1>enjoyed reading the book, particularly the intro. I got a

713
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of pieces of history put together for me. Do

714
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.559
<v Speaker 1>you have anything you'd like to add or anything I

715
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.559
<v Speaker 1>missed before we wrap up the discussion.

716
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, just enjoy reading the Gospels, and the better the

717
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.639
<v Speaker 2>more you understand how the Gospels work, and the more

718
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you keep your eyes on those cultural scripts which the

719
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.920
<v Speaker 2>book is working to point out as you move through

720
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.039
<v Speaker 2>the passages. The better you'll make sense out of what's

721
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:59.039
<v Speaker 2>going on the gospels. And this is the bonus, the

722
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.400
<v Speaker 2>more you will see how the gospels and the epistles

723
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.880
<v Speaker 2>actually fit together. Okay, because a lot of people say,

724
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.440
<v Speaker 2>I get the epistles, but I'm not sure I understand

725
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:13.119
<v Speaker 2>quite how the gospels work because the Gospels, the bulk

726
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.199
<v Speaker 2>of the Gospels, do it more inductively, and the epistles

727
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:20.400
<v Speaker 2>deliver the deductive results. And so we're so comfortable with

728
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:23.679
<v Speaker 2>the deductive results we sometimes miss how do we get there?

729
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:27.440
<v Speaker 2>If you understand how the gospels work, you can connect

730
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:29.400
<v Speaker 2>those dots. Gotcha?

731
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:32.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Great? And also you wanted to emphasize our earlier

732
00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:36.519
<v Speaker 1>discussion in your most recent book, Cultural Intelligence, Living for

733
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:39.079
<v Speaker 1>God in a diverse, pluralistic World. So I'll put the

734
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.400
<v Speaker 1>link to that most recent book in the show notes.

735
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:44.880
<v Speaker 1>And also people can go check out that discussion we

736
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:47.920
<v Speaker 1>had back in July, but also link to this book,

737
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:51.599
<v Speaker 1>really great book, Jesus according to Scripture, Restoring the Portrait

738
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:55.199
<v Speaker 1>from the Gospels, published twenty seventeen, second edition by doctor

739
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Darryl L. Boxel. Doctor Buck, thank you so much for.

740
00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:59.199
<v Speaker 2>Your time, my pleasure.

741
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:03.000
<v Speaker 1>As always, God bless take care right Stay there, Stay there,

742
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:04.159
<v Speaker 1>mm hmm