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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Great Adventurers of Old Time Radio from Boise, Idaho.

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This is your host, Adam Graham. In a moment, we're

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going to bring you this week's episode of Counterspot. But

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first I want to encourage you. If you're enjoying the podcast,

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please follow us using your favorite podcast software, and today's

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program is brought to youmpart both financial support of our listeners.

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You can support the show on a one time basis

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at support dot Great Detectives dot net and become one

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of our ongoing Patreon supporters for as little as two

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dollars per month and just go to Patreon dot Great

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Detectives dot net. But now, from August eleventh, nineteen forty nine,

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here is the Case of the Murmured Millions.

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Speaker 2: That's a Cola p E P s I. That's your

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smartest Cola by That's a Cola presents counter Spying, David.

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Speaker 3: Hunting, Counterspy Washington Calling David Hunting.

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Speaker 2: Counterspy Hiding Counterspy Calling Washington.

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Speaker 4: United States Counts especially appointed to investigate.

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Speaker 5: And the enemies of our country well at home and abroad.

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Good night.

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Speaker 2: The Case of the Murmured Millions. Another Counterspy report to

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the American people brought to you weeks Tuesday and Thursday

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by that's a cola.

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Speaker 5: Pepsi cola hits the spot. Two full glasses.

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Speaker 2: That's right, you heard what they said. Two full glasses

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of sparkling Pepsi from one big twelve ounce bottle. You're

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getting an extra glassful. I want a delicious glass fall,

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the most refreshing, delightful cola that ever tickled your tape.

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You can't top Pepsi's tangy flavor. And that big, big

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bottle saves you money, goes twice as far. Pepsi's America

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is big, big favorite and America's biggest cola val you.

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So why take less when Pepsi is bet? Whenever you

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reach for refreshment? Remember, why take glass when Pepsi's bet?

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Speaker 5: And now to counters five? Hello?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Tony, what the same guy?

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Speaker 5: Boy? Is that little? Two? Time? And h are you.

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Speaker 2: Now downstairs in a line?

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Speaker 5: Is she on her way up?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 6: No, you don't have to tailor anymore. I got enough

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for a nice big bird.

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Speaker 2: Okay, ring off, I want to learn it.

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Speaker 5: So lucky I got that. I want to talk to

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you about me.

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Speaker 6: First, that I got something I want to give.

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Speaker 5: Gilt about time. I've been due.

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Speaker 2: You've been due for this for a long time.

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Speaker 6: Rocky, Okay, make a turk out of Rocky Lucky time

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and me for a two bit card man.

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Speaker 7: Oh stop it.

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Speaker 2: Rocky's got but I tell you, tell me nothing I

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know at all.

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Speaker 6: Nobody pulls them all over rock Side.

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Speaker 1: He's good.

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Speaker 6: This guy normal worth taking a beating for him. He's

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that good at playing around.

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Speaker 2: No, Roy, No, please please this business.

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Speaker 6: You know what I think of that kind of difference.

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Speaker 2: Listen, it's for you.

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Speaker 5: I did it. He wants to meet you, isn't me?

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That's good, that's freely good.

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Speaker 6: He wants to meet me, so he plays putsie?

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Speaker 5: What's my dog? Why don't they come up here? I

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get an address?

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Speaker 7: Oh no, Rocky, when you're listening, please no more.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I got time.

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Speaker 6: Fak your piece wants and good because and I'm gonna

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kick your tea set Oh listen.

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Speaker 5: He wants to see you. He's got a proposition.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna set up a date when you got

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off a.

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Speaker 5: Fairy tale DoD.

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Speaker 2: I look him up.

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Speaker 5: He's a car and man, a lone wolf. What does

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he want for me? He's got a deal. He needs

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your syndicure behind a big one. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: He wants me to bring you to him two o'clock

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this afternoon, a beach on the south shore.

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Speaker 5: Of Long Island. A beach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He don't want to take no chance on anybody.

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Speaker 6: Over here in oh sharp cookie huh all rocky rocky.

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Speaker 5: You believe me, don't you?

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Speaker 2: Maybe yes, maybe no, But we'll keep that date.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I like that beach ideas because at this saint level,

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DoD I'll see that you and the boyfriend go for

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a long swim one way.

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Speaker 5: That's in rocky down on the beach.

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Speaker 8: Plum's gentleman.

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Speaker 5: Hell do are they rocky? This is Jill Norman still

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rocky down? Hi, how do you do?

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Speaker 6: Well, let's hear your story, Norman, and it better be good.

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I think my habit of being drag fifteen miles from Nohood.

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Speaker 2: To talk to a guy. All right, mister dunn at Dorothy,

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would you mind taking a walk?

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Speaker 6: But well, that's part of my business at this level,

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And anything you tell me, I'll tell her anyway.

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Speaker 2: That's perfectly all right with me. I just don't want

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her to hear.

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Speaker 5: What we say. What consense does that make simple.

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Speaker 2: If anything should go wrong and we should be arrested,

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always a possibility you could testify.

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Speaker 5: Wait to what you heard, not what Rocky told you?

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Why doe you'll think that I will not at all,

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not at all.

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Speaker 2: I just don't like to take chances my character.

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Speaker 5: I'm getting in arrested. Go on, dot take a watch.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Norman start talking. Well first, you'd like

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to know a little bit about me, wouldn't.

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Speaker 6: No, I've been doing a little checking. William Norman alias

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Walter Nolan, con Man, swindler three to five years stretching

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the Harris built pen. You're at Cluton prison and strictly

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alone wolf in operation pretty complete.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Now what's the pitch? Five to ten million dollars

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a year. Let big pitch? You're interested. I got a

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catcher's midst that throw, and it's a refinement of the

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protection like it protection. I got out of that in

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a thirty.

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Speaker 9: That's too risky.

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Speaker 2: The cops and the good citizens get mad fast. This

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isn't risky. I don't like to take chances. That's why

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I met you out here on the beach. You can't

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wire the air and the sea.

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Speaker 5: Huge, What do you want from me.

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Speaker 2: I'm not forgetting. You got a rep as a lone wolf,

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and I'd keep it, except that now I need your organizations.

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Why you got men in most of the big cities

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in the country, haven't you do?

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Speaker 10: That's right.

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Speaker 6: Takes a big outfit to run a gambling operation, and

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they're tough enough to run any protection racket ever invented.

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Speaker 2: There will be no violence at all attached to this.

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I don't like force. You can make more with brains.

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Speaker 5: What do the boys do then? Wreck? What twenty million

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dollar corporation? One million? For that?

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Speaker 2: You need an army, not if.

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Speaker 5: You do it with words instead of violence. You're still interested.

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Speaker 2: And I always like to hear a guy talk in millions.

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What's the name of this outfit we're gonna wreck?

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Speaker 6: We in already could be if the set up as

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sure as you are of yourself.

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Speaker 2: It is the name of the outfit is the Double

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Circle Products Corporation. Oh, you just sit down and be comfortable,

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and I'll tell you how. Mister Blake, the president of

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Double Circle, You're going to help us turn a murmur

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in a minute? All right, mister Norman, You've got five

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minutes of my path. Make it brief into the point.

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I'm a busy man, all right, mister Blake. I'm here

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to sell you the services in my organization, Norman Associates

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public Relations.

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Speaker 5: You're five years too late.

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Speaker 2: I already have a public relations agency, right, mister Blake.

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If they go after the press, radio, medium's mass communication,

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I go directly to the people themselves.

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Speaker 5: That's not very clear.

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Speaker 2: Your product's going to practice every American home. Suppose the

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public should get the idea that Double Circle merchandise is inferior,

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what possibly dangerous, and start talking about it.

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Speaker 5: You could lose a lot of business. Nonsense.

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Speaker 2: There's not a thing wrong with Double Circle products, and

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there never will be. You've got nothing to say this

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to normal, and you've wasted enough of my time already.

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I'm satisfied with my present public relationship. I was afraid

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you'd say that, mister Blake. I'm sorry, because I offer

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my services only once.

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Speaker 5: I assure you that's been enough. Bestenomen.

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Speaker 2: I'd like you to remember that, mister Blake, just in

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case anything should happen to your concern. Hello Dorothy, no no,

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no last names please, But they tell our mutual friend

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to put our plan into operation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just as I outlined.

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Speaker 2: Subways, railroad stations, ferris wherever people gather.

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Speaker 8: That's right, I'll keep in touch with him. Goodbye.

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Speaker 2: These subways are getting more credit every day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, have you a wife any better? Tony worse? Mike

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hands old Bert listed. Huh. Doctor says it was that

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stuff she was.

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Speaker 2: Using made by the Double Circle company.

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Speaker 5: Oh bad, huh, Well you saw a tit her hand.

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Speaker 2: We'll never buy Double Circle again. I'm label. Did you

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hear that Double Circle IoT?

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Speaker 1: Some of that junk?

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Speaker 5: Like so about Jeff Worth.

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Speaker 2: A wife thought you were going to the theater with

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it as she can't.

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Speaker 6: He got some kind of metal poison and using that

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that Double Circle product.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw that company. Yeah, Artnick, and the stuff

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was made by Double Circle.

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Speaker 11: I heard it from the man who's white was poison.

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Speaker 2: Don't try to tell me double Circle.

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Speaker 1: I'm not.

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Speaker 5: Don youin't take my advice.

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Speaker 2: Donncle near that Double Circle stuff. It's pointed Double circle.

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Speaker 5: Sure it's good.

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Speaker 2: If you want to drop that quick.

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Speaker 7: I wouldn't buy Double Circle. And if they gave me

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the company.

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Speaker 2: You hear afore several Circle products they.

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Speaker 10: Are to be suit but sello manson if you want

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to drop that question.

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Speaker 7: I want to buy Double Circle the.

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Speaker 5: Bag speaking what it is.

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Speaker 11: More cancelations somewhere now the West Coast. Look, we've simply

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got to put more pressure on our salesman. I know,

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I know all about the rumors with sending up a

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we sent. We can to combat them, but we can't

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keep it up in the face of these cancelations.

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Speaker 5: Two more weeks and we'll be.

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Speaker 2: Forced to sell out.

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Speaker 3: From Federal Securities Commission to David Harding, Chief United States Counterfires,

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request preliminary investigation into failure of Double Circle Products Corporation

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stockholder's loss. Enormous evidence of malfeasons or fraud should be

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forwarded to US for prosecution.

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Speaker 2: Four months with the hearting, that's all of four months

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of the twenty million dollar business practically wiped out. We

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just have to sell with cancelations outnumbering orders by four

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to one. Alissa Blake, about those rumors about your products.

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Speaker 5: And not who they never worked through, and they're not

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through today. We know that, mister Blake. They couldn't be.

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Speaker 10: The federal trade laws protect consumers against the sale of

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anything harmful.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wish more people were aware of that. Mister Peters,

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or as mister Blake, rumors have to spring from some place.

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Speaker 5: Now, I have you any idea at all how they started?

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about that. Your competitors, mister Peter's free

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enterprise is a competitive system, but there are rules and ethics.

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Every one of my competitors offered to help me weather this,

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but it was no use. Well then what were you thinking,

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mister Blake?

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Speaker 5: Oh what's the use?

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Speaker 2: You can't arrest a rumor if it's criminal slander, and

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you can prove who started it.

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Speaker 5: You can prove. If I can't prove anything, but you

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suspect something, miss Blake, I do. Well, then we'd like

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to know those suspicions.

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Speaker 2: All right, mister Harding, I'll give you my suspicions in

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one name.

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Speaker 5: William Norman. Norman.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he runs an outsit called Norman Associates Public Relations.

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He predicted this might happen when he tried to sell

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me his.

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Speaker 5: Services or a profit.

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Speaker 2: And I'm very pointed profits because he underscored his predictions.

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Speaker 10: When the rumors started, did you try to get in

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touch with him?

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Speaker 2: Well, well, not at first, mister Peters, but later on

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I did. In fact, I offered to retain his services

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to see if that would stop the rumors.

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Speaker 5: But he wasn't for higher then was he?

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Speaker 2: How did you know, mister Hart, Well, it had been

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stupid if he had been. It's easy enough to start gossip,

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but almost impossible to stop it.

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Speaker 10: Suppose this Norman did stunt those rooms, jeeves, it'll be

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just as impossible to cove it.

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Speaker 5: One perhaps, perhaps none.

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Speaker 2: But before we jump through any conclusions, I don't want

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to know more about William Norman. Well, my secretary has

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his address and phone numbers. I get it, Peters, and

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put Norman's name through the words. I want to know

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everything about him, from the day he was born until

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the day you hand me.

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Speaker 5: Your report back to cobber spy in a moment.

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Speaker 2: But for Pepsi cola ten to spot two fold glasses, that's.

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Speaker 5: A lot lots more value, lot more deaths. I take

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less when Pepsi said.

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Speaker 2: More and more among fellows and girls, among mothers and dads.

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You hear that same and sensible question. Why take less

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when Pepsi is best? No budgets, no allowance ever had

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a better friend than tangy sparkling pepsicola. Because one dig

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twelve pepsi bottle gives you two delicious drinks. That's twice

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as much tangy taste, twice as much delicious pepsi to

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go just twice as far. That's why more and more

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families say, why take less when pepsi is bet? Yes,

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family is like yours and mine. Families all over America

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they're all saying, why take less when pepsi is bet?

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Pepsi coluth so delicious and this bottle makes two drinks?

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Is certainly the cola or the purchaser who thinks everybody's

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thinking pepsi doesn't compare it with the rest.

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Speaker 5: Sooma, smile and soomat finer Tas.

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Speaker 2: Petty said today, tomorrow, always get America's biggest cola. Val

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you take home a carton of six big, big pepsi bottles.

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Insist on pepsi at the store, and say pepsi at

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the fountain, Say pepsi at the sand, say pepsi whenever

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you reach for refreshment. Remember why take class when pepsis said?

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Speaker 5: Now back to counters.

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Speaker 2: Bill Norman, the immaculate racketeer has just put his proposition

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to another important businessman.

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Speaker 5: Mister Norman. It's simply no use.

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Speaker 2: This company is satisfied with its present public relations set up.

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It's funny, that's the same thing mister Blake said to me.

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Blake the Double Circle Corporation, you read about their failure

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and forced sale. I imagine, yes, I did. He might

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have forestalled all those nasty rumors if he'd employed the

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services of an alert public relations agency like mine. I'm

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not sure I like what you're saying. Why not saying anything?

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I'm just trying to sell you make your sales point

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a little clearer. I don't like talking business in offices.

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Speaker 5: Suppose we go for a drive. I have my car downstairs.

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Suppose I don't.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a free country. Do as you choose. Blake did, yes,

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I hope you don't have the same difficulties today. Wait

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a minute, I think I will go for that drive.

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Speaker 5: Wise decision. I want to see all your cards.

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Speaker 2: I'd be glad to show them to you, as long

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as there are no kibitzers around. Let's go, mister Sandford.

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All right, christer, noentleman, let's have your proposition. Not here,

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mister Sandford. I even't suspect my own car. Someone may

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have wired it. We just go for a little walk

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in this field by the road and then talk whatever

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you say.

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Speaker 5: What are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Just making sure you're not concealing anything?

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Speaker 5: What do you mean?

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Speaker 2: I once made a record on wittingly concealed microphone.

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Speaker 5: They played it in court.

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Speaker 2: Liked my voice so much they gave me a year's

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engagement in a penitentiary. I don't want a return date. No,

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you're becoming candid. I'll do even better. I'll become blunt.

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The rumors because the failure of the Double Circle Corporation,

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I started them and spread them. That's quite an admission,

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isn't it. Suppose I repeated it to the authorities.

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Speaker 5: We have no witnesses.

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Speaker 2: I'd simply deny it and the nsue you for slander

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and defamation of character. On top of which rumors about

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your products would start, and with what your company sells.

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Speaker 5: Think of the pleasant tales I could invent.

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Speaker 2: Just addressed up version of the protection record. Huh Well, put,

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mister Sandford, only you protect yourself against words instead of violence?

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Speaker 5: And how much would this cost the corporation?

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Speaker 2: One percent of your gross business?

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Speaker 5: Are you crazy?

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Speaker 2: We do nearly fifty million dollars a year. No, that's

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what makes one percent so reasonable from my kind of

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public relations? For million dollars, I can't say yes or no,

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just like that, you can't say no. But I'll give

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you time to figure out a way to say yes.

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Call me the first of the week. We'll go for

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another drive and complete our business there.

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Speaker 10: It is recording the report on William Norman, complete from

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the day of his birth September twelfth, nineteen eleven, up

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to and including yesterday when he called on Colton Samford

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of the Sanford Beauty Corporation, Sanford, any of our agents

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siesand Virgin No not said.

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Speaker 5: Well, then we will.

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Speaker 2: I want to find out what Norman said to him. Well, now,

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what about Norman's background?

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Speaker 10: We serve time in two state penitentiaries. It would have

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been more except his head good lawyers. He's been a

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confidence man from the age of twenty two, and suddenly

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he blossoms out into a public relations expert. Blake had

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a good foundation for his suspicions yes day, but he

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was right about proof. There's not a thing to connect

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Norman with the rumors that ruin double circle unlets.

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Speaker 5: We tried to trace them.

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Speaker 2: How impossible we'd be licked before we start. Besides, even

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if through some merrigo we did.

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Speaker 5: Trace them to Norman, it wouldn't prove a thing.

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Speaker 2: He'd just say he heard them somewhere else. Now, our

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00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,480
best bet is to start at the source. Interview Sandford,

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find out what Norman told him. Okay, Chief, but Norman

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would hardly admit to Sanford that he was the cause

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of Blake's bankrupts and or wrong Peters. If what we

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suspect is true, Norman had to admit it. What do

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you mean, Well, that's the flaw and any protection racket,

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the crook has to reveal himself to his victim in

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order to extort.

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Speaker 5: Money nobody'd pay off otherwise.

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Speaker 2: Now our job is to get Norman to reveal himself

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in the presence of a witness or a microphone well hidden,

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and mister Sandford is going to help us do just that.

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That's right for starting. You and mister Peters have reconstructed

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the whole picture. Norman definitely admitted he did the Blake

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admitted he boasted about it. But if you've got any

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idea about my testifying in court, forget it would be

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my word against his, and you couldn't convict him without

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supporting evidence. Well, if we got that supporting evidence, you'd testify,

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wouldn't you, mister Sandford.

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Speaker 5: With pleasure? But how are you going to get it?

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Speaker 2: I told you Norman won't talk with a third party around.

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I told you about he's searching me.

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Speaker 10: Norman sounds even smarter than his record indicates, perhaps.

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Speaker 5: Too smart, Peters.

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Speaker 2: Mister Sandford, you Saint Norman didn't start talking until you

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were well away from his car.

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Speaker 5: That's right.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't taking any chances on eavesdroppers.

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Speaker 5: When you meet him again, it's supposed to be the

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same setup, Yes, same Blake. Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The last time we drove around, he just seemed to

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00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:57,319
stop with the first convenient country field.

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Speaker 10: That gives us no chance at all to stakeout microphones, recorders.

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00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 5: Maybe we can do it another way.

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Speaker 2: Well, how, mister Harding, you want proof that will stand

394
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:07,599
up in court, The only way you'll get it is

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from Norman's only, right, mister Sandford, That's just where I

396
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:12,799
intend to get it. When are you supposed to meet

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him next two or three days?

398
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Speaker 5: I call him to set the.

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Speaker 2: Time, okay, make sure it's daylight and it's for the date. Peters,

400
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,720
call a meteorological bureau in Washington. Tell them to give

401
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:26,160
you as positive a forecast as they can on the

402
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,960
weather for the next three days. Now, mister Sandford, yes,

403
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you will meet Norman on the nicest day of the

404
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,720
three Well, what are you going to do, mister heart

405
00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:42,240
that's what you suggested convict Norman from his own lips.

406
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,160
You will certainly pick peculiar places to meet christ Norman.

407
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Speaker 5: What's wrong with the beach?

408
00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,039
Speaker 2: Pleasant breathe, it's nice surroundings. So you think of a

409
00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,160
better place to do business. You've got a pint if

410
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,000
we do business, do we?

411
00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 5: Look?

412
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 2: How do I know you're not just cashing in on

413
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,000
Blake's fans luck?

414
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 5: Maybe you had.

415
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,519
Speaker 2: Nothing to do with the rumors that ruined him. After all,

416
00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:16,599
a rumor campaign like that would take a lot of

417
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,759
men and money, a big organization. You're right, missus Anton,

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00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:23,279
and I've got an organization behind me, one of the

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biggest syndicates in the country, a syndicate of Rocky.

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Speaker 5: Done, Rocky Done. So you read the papers, Well.

421
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,279
Speaker 2: I give the word and in two hours his man

422
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,839
would be spreading rumors across the country about every product

423
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:36,200
you make.

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00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 5: Now do you pay off or do I give the word.

425
00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:43,680
I'd still like more proof. Okay, no, wait a minute,

426
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don't go. I don't like to waste my time.

427
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,519
Speaker 2: I know how rumors can spread. Every now and then,

428
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:54,480
from nowhere comes the rumor that some famous person is dead.

429
00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:59,400
So let's pick a name. Say Bert Plants, the baseball player.

430
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,039
He's in good Else, if I hear he's dead from

431
00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:10,640
some public source, then we can do business.

432
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 5: That's not bad, Missus Hanford.

433
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 2: In fact, it's good enough for me to file for future.

434
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 5: Use and it's a deal. Yeah, when you hear Plancy's dead,

435
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:21,599
call me.

436
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:35,759
Speaker 2: I'll come around to collect my first quarterly retainer, mister Norman,

437
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,279
Missus Colton Sandford, I just heard a rumor that Bert

438
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,240
Clancy died.

439
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 5: Funny, isn't it.

440
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 2: Incidentally, we've decided to retain your firm for public relations.

441
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,240
I'm if you'll drop around our conference room in about

442
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,720
an hour, our vice president of charge of personnel will

443
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,880
outline the company policies and of course give you your first

444
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:00,920
waterly retainers.

445
00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: Splendid?

446
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: Are they very interested in learning the company policy?

447
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 5: One hour?

448
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:07,279
Speaker 6: Then?

449
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:08,319
Speaker 5: Good?

450
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:21,599
Speaker 9: Mine right in here, mister Norman.

451
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, mister Sandford was called away.

452
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,839
Speaker 5: He left a note about the retainer.

453
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: I know, naturally, we'll pick it up in accounting. After

454
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:31,640
you've seen the orientation film, we like to show all

455
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,119
new executives. Well, let's step to it. Then, Oh, there's

456
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,279
mister Thurman here. Run the projector and interpret.

457
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,039
Speaker 5: Hello, how do you do it? Where shall we start?

458
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: Well, I'm expecting to Oh that must be the excuse

459
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:52,839
me come in after you, Rockie. I don't want to

460
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,559
know what mister Dunn, you know each other?

461
00:25:58,319 --> 00:25:58,519
Speaker 5: Well?

462
00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 2: He yes, yes, but I wasn't aware of that. Mister

463
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,920
Dunnan was connected with your company.

464
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 5: I thought he was connected.

465
00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:04,759
Speaker 2: With your fray.

466
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 5: What is this double?

467
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,319
Speaker 2: Don't you know who this guy is?

468
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,799
Speaker 5: Norman? I don't think I got the name. I didn't

469
00:26:09,799 --> 00:26:10,079
give it.

470
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: But it's Harding, David Hardy, the counterspies Norman, some kind

471
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,279
of attentship.

472
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 5: Quiet, mister Dunn.

473
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,559
Speaker 2: I'm sure mister Harding will explain the meaning of this

474
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:19,759
himself with pleasure.

475
00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 5: At first, I'd like you to look.

476
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: At the moving pictures, mister Norman Peter's will you turn

477
00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:24,880
off the lights and.

478
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:29,759
Speaker 5: Stay with Rocky Burman started the projector.

479
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:42,799
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, recognize yourself mister Norman has let's say, I

480
00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:44,240
photographed better than mister.

481
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:45,759
Speaker 10: Sandy, guy to hire Fucky.

482
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: I thought silent pictures were passing. I'm not always notice

483
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,759
this next shot, the way the camera zooms in for

484
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,680
a close up telephoto lens.

485
00:26:58,519 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 5: H huh, very interesting. Is there any point?

486
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: Definitely, mister no, I'm arresting you for extortion, criminal slander,

487
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,599
and whatever other counts we can dig up against you on.

488
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 5: The basis of this film. Yes, it's silent, mister Harny.

489
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: I was discussing legitimate business with mister Sandford when you

490
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:18,799
took them.

491
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 5: And if he says differently.

492
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,519
Speaker 2: The liar, the pictures say different. Do you notice how

493
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:25,839
mister Sandford kept moving around to keep your face toward

494
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,240
one of our cameras that had a purpose.

495
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:32,079
Speaker 5: I don't block easy, mister Harney. You don't have to.

496
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,039
I told you.

497
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,839
Speaker 2: Mister Thurman was the interpreter. What's Norman saying on the

498
00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:42,039
screen now, Thurman, I've got an organization behind me, one

499
00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:46,400
of the biggest syndicates in the country, the syndicate of Rocky.

500
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:48,519
Speaker 5: Don watch that's how we picked Rocky up.

501
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:53,039
Speaker 2: Smart guy hand Norman, you blabbering a little note form, soya,

502
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,880
you look to see if they all right for Rockey,

503
00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:01,079
Rocky always had a reputation or a quick trigger timber.

504
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,079
Look here, mister honey, why don't you give it up? Norman?

505
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,079
Mister Thurmon is a lip reador flip reader. Yes, and

506
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,400
he'll appear in court together with a dozen other expert

507
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,920
lip readers to testify.

508
00:28:09,519 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 5: To every word you said.

509
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:12,319
Speaker 10: On top of which we've gotten Rocky in as a

510
00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:14,640
pickup order on for his girlfriend not to run out.

511
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 5: Of kiss flip breader.

512
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,599
Speaker 2: That's right, Norman, Come on, Peters, let's get him to

513
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:21,079
the headquarters. Looks like that's the only way we'll convince

514
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:30,440
him this arrest is not a rumor, but a fact.

515
00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:38,960
When your friends drop him, be generous, but be thrifty too.

516
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,720
Serve plenty of delicious Petsicola. Pepsi's the twelve outs bottle

517
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,160
gives you not just one sparkling glass full, but two.

518
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:50,799
Get a carton of six, and serve twelve delicious drinks. Yes,

519
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,400
Pepsi is America's biggest cola value. You get twice the tang,

520
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,400
he taste, twice the refreshment, twice the pepsi. So why

521
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,640
take let's when Pepsi is that whenever you reach for refreshment,

522
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,119
remember put.

523
00:29:04,079 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 9: The cause, hit the fop the twofol classes.

524
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:11,119
Speaker 5: That's a lotta lass when Petty.

525
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday, same time, same station,

526
00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:18,960
two Counterspi with the next Tuesday for the exciting Counterspy

527
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:23,440
case of the Statue of death, the silky coated carrier

528
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:28,359
that outsmarted an electric eye, the gift of appreciation that

529
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,559
caused the death of an innocent woman, and the clicking

530
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,720
guardian that halted two international agents who carried.

531
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:38,119
Speaker 5: Molecules of murder.

532
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:41,759
Speaker 2: Be sure to be tuned in next Tuesday to the

533
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:55,359
case of the Statue of Death on Counterspive. Tonight's Counterspy program,

534
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,599
originated in New York, was directed by Winnim M Sweets

535
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,880
and featured Don McLaughlan and Mandel Kramer, with music by

536
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Rosa Reoll. Counterspy is a phillips h large production for

537
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,960
Pepsicola and Johnny Some Pepsi I's Cold Tonight.

538
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:34,319
Speaker 1: Welcome back. In many ways, mister Norman was really ahead

539
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:39,200
of his time because so much of what he was

540
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:44,400
doing in this episode feels very modern, except in a

541
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,240
low tech sort of way. In some ways it was

542
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:53,119
building upon something that we already knew about propaganda and

543
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:57,599
rumor during wartime, but he extends it to peacetime and

544
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,319
what he realizes, and this is the key point, is

545
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:08,359
that information and the ability to shape a narrative about

546
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,559
a business or about an entity is power, and with

547
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:17,200
that power you can do as much damage to a

548
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,960
business as if you were going around blowing up the factories.

549
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:24,759
And in many ways, these same sort of things he's

550
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,640
doing are things that we see today in the way

551
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:34,720
that information and misinformation is manipulated in all sorts of ways.

552
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 5: Today.

553
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: There are terms like astroturfing, where you try to create

554
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,839
the impression that there is this major feeling of the grassroots,

555
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,319
you know, just organic, this is what people are thinking, feeling,

556
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:58,559
believing about whatever. But really it's being manufactured and manipulated,

557
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,839
and certainly social media and now AI is allowing even

558
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,440
more of this.

559
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 5: But there's something a.

560
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,799
Speaker 1: Bit uncanny about this plot because it feels like such

561
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,400
a precursor to what we're dealing with so much in

562
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,480
our twenty first century life. On the other hand, what

563
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,680
he chooses to do with this revelation and just shows

564
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:31,920
some limits of imagination in trying to reinvent the protection racket.

565
00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:36,279
Modern people who do what mister Norman does don't do

566
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,279
that sort of thing, and there are many opportunities that

567
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:46,400
would be more fruitful. Fortunes are made and lost by

568
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,079
people shortening various stalks, and certainly if you are going

569
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,160
to start a misinformation campaign, there are some stalk trades

570
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,000
that you can make ahead of time that would make

571
00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:03,759
you quite wealthy. Or if you don't want to deal

572
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:07,920
with that sort of paper trail yourself, you can hire

573
00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:13,839
yourself out to damage people's reputation to competitors or to

574
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,559
speculators who want to do the stock speculation themselves, or

575
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,640
maybe take control of the company on the cheap by

576
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,519
driving down the stalk. And of course in the twenty

577
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:31,160
first century we've added all other sorts of ways to

578
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:34,599
make money from these sort of little bits of arbitrage,

579
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,039
such as the whole production market phenomenon, which obviously they

580
00:33:39,079 --> 00:33:41,559
didn't have a nineteen forty nine, but they had other

581
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,480
ways to exploit it, which I think does show like

582
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:50,039
the limits of imagination in reality, maybe a bit in

583
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,920
the writers, but certainly in mister Norman, who in nineteen

584
00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:59,680
forty nine hit on an idea that would become the

585
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:07,680
basis of so many fortunes, often obtained in dubious ways

586
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,239
that in many cases are quite hard to prove illegality.

587
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,880
But because he is a man of his time, the

588
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,239
best he can come up with is reinventing protection rackets

589
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440
with this and that tends to be a bit of

590
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,000
a weak spot in this plan, because protection rackets were

591
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:33,280
targeted towards a very different sort of victim. If you

592
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,960
were a victim of a protection racket, you were likely

593
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,039
a small shop owner. Oftentimes these were people who were

594
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:49,280
immigrants or others who might not be particularly favored with

595
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,800
those in authority, but regardless were not politically well connected,

596
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,320
which many of their tormentors were. So these people could

597
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,119
be easily scared into pain up they had reasons to

598
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:10,599
keep silent. Now you take that same business model and

599
00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:13,000
you decide, you know what, I'm going to try this

600
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:19,480
on well connected CEOs. Now, even though the heads of

601
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:24,880
corporations and large businesses were not, for the most part,

602
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,599
the major magnates that you'll see leading say the mag

603
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,960
seven or Fortune one hundred company, these were still generally

604
00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:38,400
people who had a lot of resources. They had lawyers,

605
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,920
pr departments, security departments, They could reach out to regulators,

606
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,360
They knew politicians, so you're not going to get the

607
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:55,159
same level of cooperation and submission. And you you listen

608
00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:59,840
to programs where somebody is beaten up and they have

609
00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:04,679
their store vandalized, and the detective or the police are

610
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,480
asking it as alum, I don't know anything, and they're

611
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:11,239
scared to share anything at all. They come to this

612
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,599
guy who got ruined by mister Norman and he's like, yeah,

613
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:18,599
I did have somebody come here. I think I know

614
00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:21,039
who's behind this, and here, let me go ahead. I'll

615
00:36:21,039 --> 00:36:25,159
get you his business card. But probably listeners were appreciative

616
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,920
that he just kind of went into the typical organized

617
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:33,079
crime sort of way of doing things, because that's what

618
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:37,239
you're kind of used to. Avid Harding was equipped to

619
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,400
deal with the mid century organized crime bosses, not the

620
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,079
master manipulators of the twenty first century. But that doesn't

621
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:50,280
mean that it was easy for Harding. I did like

622
00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:56,320
Norman's caution. I thought it was a very intelligent feature

623
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,960
along with his whole system, and it gave Harding something

624
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,360
to foil, which I think he did in a pretty

625
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,440
clever way by just thinking, Okay, what is this guy

626
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:11,559
not going to expect? Oh, it's not going to expect

627
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:18,159
that we can use the combination of a silent video

628
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,800
and a lip reader to catch this guy because he

629
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,440
was worried about what might be heard without understanding you know,

630
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:31,199
what could be seen. And I guess that is kind

631
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,760
of the defining characteristic of Norman as a villain is

632
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:43,079
he is exceptional at spotting some elements and coming up

633
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:47,440
with ideas that are ahead of his time and are

634
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,559
smarter than other criminals, but he misses some key details

635
00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:57,440
along the way, which ultimately leads to his undoing. Now

636
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:00,880
it's time to think our Patreon supporter today. Thank you

637
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:06,480
to RB, Patreon supporter since September twenty twenty four, currently

638
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:10,880
supporting the podcast at the super Scientist level of fifteen

639
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,079
dollars more per month.

640
00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:13,119
Speaker 5: Thanks so much for your.

641
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: Support, RB, and that will do it for today. If

642
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,159
you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite

643
00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:23,159
podcast software and be sure to rate and review the

644
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:26,880
podcast wherever you download it from. We'll be back next

645
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,079
Saturday with another episode of Counterspy, but join us back

646
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,239
here on the Great Detectives of Old Time Radio on

647
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,239
Monday for Saint, and then join us back here on

648
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:44,400
Tuesday on the Great Adventurers of Old Time Radio for Tarzan.

649
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:48,480
In the meantime, do send your comments to Box thirteen

650
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,840
Great Detectives dot net from Boise, Idaho. This is your host,

651
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,840
Adam Braham signing off.

652
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 3: Ye