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You'll prot have they where by 23 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:04.439 lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. 24 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:18.519 Host, You are now listening to True Murder, The most 25 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.959 Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that 26 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:28.239 have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK 27 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:32.959 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:37.239 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.680 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:52.840 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 31 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:55.640 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 32 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.280 History and the authors that have written about them. Chelsea 33 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:02.959 King was a popular high school senior, an outstanding achiever 34 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.799 determined to make a difference. Fourteen year old Amber Dubois 35 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.800 loved books and poured her heart into the animals she 36 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:14.439 cared for. Treasured by their families and friends, both girls 37 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.159 disappeared in San Diego County, just eight miles and one 38 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:22.360 year apart. The community's desperate search led authorities to John 39 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:26.400 Albert Gardner, the third, a brutal predator hiding in Playing 40 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:33.039 Sight Now. Pulitzer nominated author Kitlyn Rother delivers an incisive, 41 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:37.919 heartbreaking true crime thriller that touches our deepest fears. The 42 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.840 book that we are featuring this evening is Lost Girls 43 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.759 by my special guest journalist and author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome 44 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:47.759 back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to 45 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.400 this interview. Caitlyn Rother, Thank it for having me on again. 46 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:55.639 Thank you very much for coming back on. This is 47 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:00.879 a very very interesting case and again very much a 48 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:05.240 true crime, very heartbreaking, but still a fascinating story for 49 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:09.039 those listening now. You start off your book and you 50 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:12.319 dedicate a fair amount of your book, and I understand why, 51 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.919 and true crime fans will as well. The subject of 52 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:20.319 this book is John Gardner. Take us way back, Take 53 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:25.360 us back to the very beginning. His formulas of years, 54 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:32.520 his parents describe his early life. Take us back, please, Well, 55 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:33.319 I think. 56 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:37.520 His history actually starts before he's even born. In my mind, 57 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.400 his mother was very a big part of this story 58 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:47.759 because I believe that they had such a complicated and 59 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.840 codependent relationship that the fact that she grew up in 60 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.120 a very dysfunctional family and became the matriarch of this 61 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:01.759 whole family really kind of a foundation for him to be, 62 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.919 you know, coming into this world and also been growing 63 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:09.560 up in this very dysfunctional family which extended far past 64 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.360 his mother but also onto his father's side as well. 65 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:17.759 And basically what we have here is a whole world 66 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:24.399 of molestation and rape and mental illness and addiction, geographical 67 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:30.240 and financial instability. It's just abuse and it just was 68 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.600 not a not a great family to be born into. 69 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:36.879 And when John Gardner was born, you know, he had 70 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:41.720 problems in the womb even before he came into this world, 71 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.720 so you know, it was clear that, you know, looking back, 72 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.680 there was something wrong. He was born, he was colleguy, 73 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.680 he had all kinds of problems. He was immediately a 74 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:57.439 hyperactive child and you know, went to nursery school and 75 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.279 ended up biting a little girl and they wanted him 76 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:03.160 to be drugged. His mom didn't want to drug him 77 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.639 because he was only three, and she you know, had 78 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.439 to end up drugging him with Riddlin because he was 79 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:14.720 diagnosed with ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and it just 80 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:19.120 got worse from there. So his father was also you know, 81 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.639 physically abusive to him, as when he was ten months old, 82 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.199 he beat him, you know, while the mom was at 83 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.720 the store, came home, found her baby, you know, covered 84 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.519 in bruises and she stormed out, and you know, it 85 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:36.879 just was not good. Father was a drunk and he 86 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:39.680 ended up using drugs, and you know, the mother ended 87 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:45.000 up leaving him. But it was you know, he didn't 88 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.920 like the John Gardner was not happy with you know, 89 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.959 going through the divorce. He had a lot of problems. 90 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:55.839 He was very troubled. He had a problem with self hate. 91 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:58.199 Even at age six, he was talking about how much 92 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.040 he hated himself. His parents were going through divorce. He 93 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:03.879 tried to he was threatening to commit suicide and jump 94 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.920 off an apartment building at age nine. So, I mean, 95 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.959 it was clear from the very beginning that this guy 96 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:15.959 was really really troubled, and his mother, really, I felt, 97 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.120 you know, did it a lot of whatever she could. 98 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.480 She was a psychiatric nurse, and she tried to get 99 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:25.040 him medicated. She you know, took him to get hospitalized 100 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.959 three times at ages nine and ten, and she tried 101 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.560 to do the best she could do. But you know, 102 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.360 there was only so much you can do when you 103 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.040 have a kid like that. So anyway, he grew up. 104 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:40.839 He developed bipolar disorder as a teenager. He tried, you know, 105 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:46.040 a multitude of medications and soon he got too big. 106 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:48.000 You know, to force him to take the medication, and 107 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:51.079 he didn't like taking him, as many people with bipolar disorder, 108 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:56.079 you know, don't. But he also had pretty serious side effects, 109 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:58.720 so you know, he actually had to be hospitalized from 110 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:00.639 some of these side effects. It wasn't a small thing 111 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:02.600 that he didn't want to take them like many bipolar 112 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:04.759 patients say, oh, I don't want it lose to high. 113 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.959 It wasn't really that. It was really more serious, but 114 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:08.959 he doesn't want to take him anymore, and it just 115 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:09.800 got worse from there. 116 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.800 Well we're shot for another hour just on that. So 117 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.279 what were his side effects from the medication? 118 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:21.040 You know, he ended up having just you know, like 119 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:24.600 I think he had some liver problems and when you know, 120 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:27.639 even even recently when he tried to take some medication 121 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.279 right before he killed Chelsea, he was getting manic episodes 122 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:33.720 and pacing around and he wasn't able to sleep. And 123 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.720 you know, sometimes when you have a mixture of disorders 124 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:39.800 the way that he did, you know, you take different 125 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.199 things and you're going to have an odd reaction to 126 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.600 them where something may work for one person if you 127 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.199 have you know, your bipolar and your hyperactive. You know, 128 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.480 I'm guessing that you're going to have a mix of reactions. 129 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:55.439 You know that maybe someone who only has one of 130 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:57.639 those problems might not have. So I think it was 131 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:02.279 probably also tricky to give him the right medication. And ironically, 132 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.920 when I went to go visit him in prison, he 133 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.959 told me he finally was on a medication that worked 134 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:12.319 for him and he finally feels, you know, okay again. 135 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:13.720 So that's really sad. 136 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:21.199 Yeah, a bit too late, right, Yeah, So you're talking 137 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:25.240 about his mother, a psychiatric nurse and really in denial, 138 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.079 you know, probably till still to this day according to 139 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:35.519 your book, But us more about pardon denial about what, well, 140 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.360 just denial about his guilts or what he was capable of, 141 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:41.440 or that he might need the medication. I mean, I 142 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.879 explained a little bit more about how she enabled, and 143 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.879 a little bit more about what you thought she'd want 144 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:48.000 to be. 145 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.200 I want to be careful about terms like denial and 146 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.480 enabling because that would imply that that's my opinion. So 147 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.840 I actually have really tried not to express an opinion 148 00:08:57.840 --> 00:08:59.799 about what I think about his mom. I know there's 149 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:01.799 some people like quote in the book who feel that 150 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.440 she was an enabler, and in denial, and I just 151 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:07.519 want to be careful to just stay at the front 152 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:11.159 that this is not my opinion. I'm not going to 153 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.200 talk about what my opinion is in terms of that 154 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:17.360 because this is such an inflammatory subject in this particular case, 155 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.240 I just kind of want the book to speak for itself. 156 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.960 But what I feel is that there, you know, she 157 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.519 did a lot of whatever she could do, and there 158 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:27.039 are many people who blamed her for this whole thing, 159 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:28.960 And that's part of the reason why I wanted choice 160 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:30.960 book was to really get in there and see what 161 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.000 did she do, what could she have done? What did 162 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.000 she know? What didn't she know? She claims she didn't 163 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.960 think he was capable of it. So I'm not sure, 164 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.799 to be honest, whether you can say she was in 165 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:48.240 denial completely, although you know because he told her, for example, 166 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.759 you know he didn't molest in this molest this thirteen 167 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.840 year old girl in two thousand when he went to 168 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:57.919 prison the first time, and most of the family believed him, 169 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.200 So it wasn't just her, it was the whole family, 170 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:03.679 you could say, was in denial because they believed him 171 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.000 and they saw a whole other side to him, that 172 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.919 he was this nurturing and protective guy, and yes, he 173 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.279 was troubled, but they didn't think he was capable of it, 174 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.240 and they had to find out that there was DNA 175 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:18.639 on these panties that were Chelsea's before they finally were 176 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:21.759 able to accept that this is who he was. And 177 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.000 I think that that's because his mother was raped and 178 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.840 molested and she was a victim too, and she couldn't 179 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.720 bring herself to see her son as doing the same 180 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.960 things that were done to her. And so yes, I mean, 181 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:38.879 I guess you can call that denial. I'm just saying 182 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:40.440 I don't. I just don't. I just want to be 183 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.519 careful with the terminology. 184 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.720 Right, No, I know what you're saying. Enabling is also 185 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.200 like I don't want to. I'm glad you made that 186 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.320 clarification because I don't want in any way to say 187 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.799 that you know, cause and effect what she did or 188 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:53.519 didn't do. 189 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.600 Right. I never believe she is an enabler. There's no 190 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:02.039 doubt about that, including some of the homoticide detectives I interviewed. 191 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:08.279 So wow, okay, So now in two thousand, of course, 192 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:12.120 you just mentioned that he is arrested and convicted for 193 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:15.960 assault and sent to prison. Now, before this you know, 194 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.840 because we've square of gloss over a certain area here 195 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.360 of adolescence, you coin him as a convicted sex offender, 196 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.639 and in two thousand he is convicted. But tell us 197 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:33.080 if there is any according to your research, any predilection 198 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.200 or if he is inclined towards some kind of sexual 199 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.799 offense before this two thousand, Is there any indication what 200 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.080 his a barant sexual desires might be before he is 201 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:45.320 actually arrested in two thousand. 202 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.799 Yeah. One of the things about bipolar disorder, which I 203 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.519 actually learned during the research of this book, is, you know, 204 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.679 one of the one of the manifestations is a pretty 205 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:02.039 strong sexual appetite. And when he was with one of 206 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.600 the girlfriends that I interviewed for the book, she told 207 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.279 me that his nickname was energizer Bunny because he, you know, 208 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.039 would just go and go and go. And I'm not 209 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.200 trying to shut everybody out, but I mean, he really 210 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:16.919 did have an appetite for that. And she said it 211 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.720 was ironic that he was actually very inclined to try 212 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.720 to please her, and that's she that's part of the 213 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.159 reason why she had a hard time believing this, because 214 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.879 she didn't see him as the kind of person who 215 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.399 would ever rape someone, because that's not who he was 216 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.519 to her. However, he did cheat on her, and he 217 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.480 cheated on her. They broke up, and they got back together, 218 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.559 and he cheated on her again. He later told his 219 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.120 aunt that he had cheated on his girlfriend. I don't 220 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.039 know that I believe this, but supposedly eighty times, so 221 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.879 he definitely cheated. He seemed to have no boundaries, you know, 222 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.799 when it came to having a girlfriend and going and 223 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.440 messing around on the side. When he had the second girlfriend, 224 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.759 that's when this incident happened with his thirteen year old neighbor. 225 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.240 Now he to this day this is another thing that's ironic. 226 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:11.799 He has, you know, acknowledged and admitted to in court 227 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.159 raping and killing two teenage girls. Yet to this day, 228 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:19.039 he still denies molesting this thirteen year old neighbor because 229 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:21.960 I think it's somehow in his mind if he can rationalize, 230 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.399 you know, that he was sent to prison for a 231 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.600 wrongly you know, wrongly convicted the first time around. He 232 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:30.960 wouldn't be where he is today because this ruined his 233 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.399 whole life. So he's got this whole victim pathology and 234 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.840 so you know, yeah, he definitely had some problems here 235 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.000 with sexually. And he told me, he said, you know, 236 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.639 I hit her in the head. I wanted to kill her, 237 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.159 but I stopped myself. And so he's willing to admit 238 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.320 that to me, But he refused to admit that he 239 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.279 stuck his hand down her pants and molested this thirteen 240 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.759 year old girl. I said, well, so she ran across 241 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:00.600 the street with her zipper down with one shoe. What 242 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.399 about that? He goes, well that, you know, we're just 243 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.720 going to have to agree to disagree. So twisted, kind 244 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:08.240 of twisted. 245 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:16.360 Yeah, so speechless hump, Yeah, So there's no So it 246 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:21.000 looks like he has a normal heterosexual a sex drive 247 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:23.639 and he's dealing with adults. At least that's what it 248 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.879 looks like. And you say bipolar. He has this increased 249 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.960 sexual appetite, or at least a very very healthy sexual appetite. 250 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.840 So when do more criminal? 251 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:33.559 When? 252 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.960 When does he have at least the first reported incident 253 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:41.080 or brush with police. Tell us what age and what 254 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:42.879 that incident might be. 255 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:45.799 Well, the first time he ran into police was when 256 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.080 he was trespassing at the high school when he went 257 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.360 to see his girlfriend. He used to like to sing 258 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.840 with the choir as well, and so he came back 259 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.440 and the security guard told him, you know, he can't 260 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.639 be here. You don't go to school here anymore, and 261 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:00.840 he just kept coming back. So that was first brush 262 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:05.159 with the police, and then this thing with the molestation 263 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.159 and assault of his neighbor was the second. The second 264 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:09.279 thing that was in two thousand. 265 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:14.799 In two thousand, now he goes to prison in Corkoram, 266 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:21.480 California State California State Prison, that's where he is aundon. Yeah, he. 267 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:25.879 Was in a couple different prisons the first time because 268 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.039 he had a mental breakdown. And this is one of 269 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:32.039 the things that I learned during my research. His mother 270 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:34.679 gave me access to his mental health records from prison, 271 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.799 which I could not get actually from the prison system, 272 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.159 even with a letter signed by Gardner to release it 273 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.480 to me. But basically, he had a breakdown in while 274 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:49.639 he was in prison, basically threatening to kill the guards 275 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.440 and the judge that put him there and everyone else 276 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.120 who you know, because he was wrongly convicted blah blah blah. 277 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.000 So you know, that's pretty significant that he was not 278 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.759 designated as a sexually violent predator when he was released. 279 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.039 He was he was designated as a low risk offender 280 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.559 while he was in prison, he was obviously dangerous. So 281 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.840 that's one of the main things I want people to 282 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.039 see that is wrong with our system here in California. 283 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.759 The way these people are evaluated when they leave. They 284 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:26.039 clearly screwed that up because they're you know, if you're 285 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.600 designated as a sexually violent predator as he was, as 286 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:35.080 I think he should have been based on those threats, 287 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.799 you know, he would have been sent someplace else for treatment. 288 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.799 And you know, it's possible to just keep somebody there, 289 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.720 you know, indefinitely, but it costs one hundred and eighty 290 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:46.840 thousand dollars a year, so they don't just do that 291 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.960 to anybody because's too expensive. So these people are dangerous, 292 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:55.720 they're getting released and they're on the street. And you know, 293 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.600 he wasn't medicated. So while he was not medicated, he 294 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.200 would end having, you know, episodes like that where he 295 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.359 would get violent, He would have no impulse control and 296 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.759 he would get very angry and he couldn't control his anger. 297 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.400 But what if he were not to take his medication anyway, 298 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.160 not liking the side effects, like you say, if if 299 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:20.240 he had actual physical detrimental effects. 300 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.599 Yeah, while there was probably I don't know what else. 301 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.240 He had a really bad anger problem and he always did. 302 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:27.440 That was something that goes that went back to when 303 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:28.240 he was a teenager. 304 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.240 I think, right, yeah, you said he did. 305 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:32.759 He always had a Hello. 306 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:34.519 It is a Ryan and I was on a flight 307 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.759 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 308 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.279 slot games on Chumba Casino dot com. 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So I mean, he had 336 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:55.359 a whole mix of symptoms that are not exactly specific 337 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:56.519 to being bipolar. 338 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.680 You talked about addiction and running in a family and 339 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.079 for a couple of generations did what addiction did he 340 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:06.519 have or have? 341 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.720 Right? So, in addition to not being medicated for his 342 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.160 being bipolar, he also a great, great thing to do 343 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:20.480 was drinking alcohol to excess, and he was dating this 344 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:24.599 woman who was a math user, so he decided to 345 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.240 try to start you know, see what that was like 346 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.759 and then he starts using that more and more often, 347 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.000 and even he admitted to me why that was not 348 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.200 a good idea. You know, that's unfet I mean, even 349 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.200 when you're not mentally ill or really dangerous stroke, what 350 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.799 it does to people makes people violent and act crazy. 351 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.559 So when you're already you know, imbalanced like that and 352 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:48.000 you're you're drinking, he drank what sixteen beers the night 353 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.400 before he killed amber So and he was you know, 354 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.720 using drugs. It was just crazy amounts of stuff. I mean, 355 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:00.000 he was really did everything to excess. 356 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.960 Now what's interesting too for some people. I mean I 357 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.079 don't think everyone understands that there's about parole, but tell 358 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.759 us a little bit. And he was sentenced in two thousand, 359 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.720 but he was parole five years later, and you talk 360 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.680 about some of the course again you have issues with 361 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:21.400 or at least you're reporting on, you know, the facts 362 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:26.720 surrounding this. Basically that there was There are strict parole 363 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.279 conditions that paroles have to adhere to, and if they don't, 364 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.519 they can violate that parole. So tell us how on 365 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.319 earth he even got parole? Why would they thought he 366 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.000 would be you know, he'd be a good candidate for 367 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:44.000 parole and then what are some of the conditions that 368 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.400 they would be. They would he would be applied to 369 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.480 John Gardner once he was released. 370 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.119 Well, he had a five year I think he had 371 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:54.920 a five year term and he got out, so that's normal. 372 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:57.799 But what I was saying before was, you know, you're 373 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:03.319 evaluated before you're released a mental health professional and by 374 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:08.640 the prison people, you know, And basically there was a disagreement. 375 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.880 You know that the corrections people said, you know, he 376 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.559 needed to be treated and the mental health people said 377 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.039 he didn't. Well, clearly there was a mix up because 378 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.839 he had that breakdown where he was threatening to kill people. 379 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:22.960 And I think that was a major mistake on the 380 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.839 state's part, and that's that's something where he should have 381 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.400 been sent someplace else, but he wasn't. So he was 382 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.640 designated a low risk offender. So somebody who's threatened to 383 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.480 kill people being designated as a low risk offender to 384 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.480 me is yet another problem. He was given a GPS 385 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.359 bracelet to wear, but not until you know, a couple 386 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:50.000 of years later, and so you know, he was violated. 387 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:55.400 I'm sorry he was arrested or cited and arrested for 388 00:21:55.519 --> 00:22:01.200 smoking marijuana and so that to me probably you know, 389 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.720 and people that I spoke with were wondering, well, why 390 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.720 didn't he get violated for that? Well, he was arrested, 391 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.839 something happened. I tried calling the parole officer to get 392 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.119 an answer from that, but you know, nobody wants to answer. 393 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.680 Now that two girls are dead, nobody wants to you know, 394 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.160 be responsible for that. So it was the choice so 395 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.559 that somebody made, probably the parole officer, to not officially 396 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.519 quote unquote violate him. So and what I was told is, well, 397 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:29.920 you know, the prisons are crowded, and this was not 398 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.720 a violent offense. This was not a rape. This had 399 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.359 nothing to do with being any molesting any girls. And 400 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.359 so you know they're busy now freeing people from prison 401 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.400