WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:01.520 Yo, What's up guys. 2 00:00:01.639 --> 00:00:05.400 Today's episode sponsored by Lucy Nicotine. It's one hundred percent 3 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:09.640 pure nicotine, always tobacco free. Lucy Breakers are nicotine patches 4 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:12.000 with an extra little surprise. Each pouch holds a cap 5 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.080 so they can't be broken and open to release extra 6 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.280 flavor and hydration. Set yourself up with a subscription and 7 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:20.839 have Lucy delivered straight to your door. I've been rocking 8 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:22.359 these for the last couple of weeks. They send us 9 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:27.440 a bunch and it's pretty dope. They I was screwing 10 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:30.320 around with the mango, but now I've gone to the espresso, 11 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:32.840 so I've been dabbling in a bunch of different flavors. 12 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:34.679 So right now I'm super hot on the Espresso one. 13 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:36.600 It's really tasty and delicious. 14 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:37.520 I'm a lightweight. 15 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:40.200 I use two percent. You can get hardcore. They have 16 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:42.759 a ton ton of different levels of nicotine. If you're 17 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:44.920 a more hardcore person, you can go for the higher ones. 18 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:48.840 I'm my sin I have a sensitive system. My mom 19 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.079 always to tell me that, So I go two percent. 20 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.600 And I rocket. 21 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.159 You know, Whenever I'm feeling a little stressed out or 22 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:58.000 whatever after a meal, something like that, I'll throw in 23 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.640 a little pouch and it's uh, it's freaking awesome. I 24 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:05.000 love Lucy. You would love Lucy too. Do us a favor. 25 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.920 Go to Lucy dot co slash house and use a 26 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.640 promo code house to get twenty percent off your first order. 27 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.239 Lucy has a thirty day refund policy if you change 28 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:15.480 your mind, so you can send it back. No sweat again, 29 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.159 that's Lucy dot Co. Use the code house to get 30 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.079 twenty percent off. And here comes to fine print. Lucy 31 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:25.640 products are only for adults of legal age and every 32 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.959 order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine 33 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.079 is an addictive chemical. Thanks guys. 34 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:35.319 If you sleep pot at night, you know just how 35 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.040 disruptive it can be, whether you're having trouble falling asleep, 36 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:39.680 you're waking up sweating in the middle of the night, 37 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.120 or all the above. That's where Ghostbed can help. As 38 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:45.879 the makers the coolest beds in the world. Ghostbed is 39 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:48.560 your go to for cooling mattresses, cooling pillows, and even 40 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.959 cooling betting from their senator ghost ice fabric the patent 41 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:55.359 technology that adjusts with your body temperature. Every ghost Bed 42 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.079 mattress is designed with cooling in mind, so whether you 43 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:00.959 want to plus your mattress, the cushions your shoulders and hips, 44 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.239 or a firmer option with exceptional support, your ghost bed 45 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.959 will keep you cool and comfortable all night long. When 46 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.240 you purchase a ghost Bed mattress, your comfort is guaranteed. 47 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.080 You can try out your mattress for a one hundred 48 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.879 and one night's risk free and make sure it's the 49 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.960 right fit for you. Plus, they offer free shipping and 50 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.000 most items ship within twenty four hours. If you're not 51 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:24.560 sure which ghost Bed is for you, check out their 52 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:27.240 mattress quiz. You'll answer a few questions and get your 53 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.240 personalized recommendation. Or reach out to their friendly team of 54 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:33.240 sleep experts for all the help you need. Even better, 55 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.879 Teamhouse listeners can get fifty percent off site wide for 56 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.560 a limited time. Just visit ghostbed dot com slash house 57 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.400 and use code house at checkout. Again, that's ghostbed dot 58 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.080 com slash house with code house at checkout to save 59 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.039 a whopping fifty percent off site wide. And if you're 60 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.120 not in the market for a mattress, check out their pillows. 61 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:57.520 They're betting they have all kinds of great stuff there. 62 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.840 So thanks to ghost bed and check them out. 63 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:09.800 Special Operations, Cobert SPI and. 64 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:18.560 The Team House with your host Jack Murphy and David bark. 65 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:23.280 Hey. 66 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:25.520 Welcome to episode three hundred and forty one of the 67 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:28.639 Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave and our guest 68 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:30.840 on today's show. We're very happy to have in studio 69 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.599 Frank Sobchak. He is a career Special Forces officer now retired, 70 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.719 and he's the author of Training for Victory. This was 71 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.280 a really great book. It has five case studies on 72 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:48.840 El Salvador, the Philippines, Columbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, examining our partner 73 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.879 force relationships and where do they go well, where do 74 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:54.120 they go wrong? And we'll get into all of that. 75 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:57.439 But Frank, thank you for joining us on the show. 76 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:00.199 Thanks thanks for having me. I really appreciated this up 77 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:00.759 over here. 78 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.560 So let's start off a little bit talking about you. 79 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:07.080 Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, 80 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:08.759 sort of how you grew up and how that took 81 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:10.080 you towards military service. 82 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.560 Yeah, so I did not come from a military family. 83 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:17.959 When actually I went to West Point, or I got 84 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.920 accepted west Point, my dad literally told me, why are 85 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:23.319 you going into the army? The armies for stupid people? 86 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.399 And schmucks and he. 87 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:26.639 Was not entirely wrong. 88 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.639 So so my dad the recent kind of I was 89 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.120 attracted in a military service, and my dad was drafted 90 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:37.920 for World War Two, but he served in. 91 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:38.680 The Panama Canal. 92 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.600 Both my dad and his brother were enlisted men. His 93 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.439 brother was in seven nine Infantry Division, kind of fought 94 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:52.240 his way across Europe Purple Heart CIB. Years later used 95 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.720 his CIB when I earned this. So it's very cool. 96 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.279 How I kind of got into it was my dad 97 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:08.240 was an orphan and he went from literally nothing, you know, 98 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.279 close on his back in a boys home to upper 99 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:18.680 middle class electrical engineer sixteen patents, kind of the American dream, right, 100 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.879 and you know, to me it was and he was 101 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.079 patriotic and he appreciated, I mean, he just appreciated what 102 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.360 America had done for him. And so to a degree, 103 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.920 it was paying back. It was an appreciation of what. 104 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:33.759 We have here. 105 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.839 And that's that's what drew me to military service. It 106 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.240 was it was definitely the black sheep for sure of 107 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:41.759 the family. 108 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.000 But you got accepted to West Point, So that's a 109 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:46.240 what year is this? 110 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:51.000 So it was I started in eighty eight, graduated. 111 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.000 In ninety two. Gotcha. 112 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:56.879 I actually went to enlisted as a reservist as a 113 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:01.680 combat engineer before because you know, we had no military 114 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.360 experience in our family. It's like no one to be like, hey, 115 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.959 what's it like other than my dad who's drafted and 116 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:07.399 is like. 117 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.600 It's horrible. I want to do it, you know. 118 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:14.319 So I did that kind of his little experiment to 119 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:15.560 kind of test the waters. 120 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.720 So how is West Point in the late nineteen eighties, 121 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:20.800 I mean, you. 122 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.720 Know, West Point sucks. It's you know, it's it's organized torture. 123 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:29.279 But it gives you, i mean great opportunities that you know, 124 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:35.639 you have experiences that I mean, you're so fortunate. I 125 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.959 did in exchange with the British Army, went to Sandhurst, 126 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:40.439 who went. 127 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:40.959 To the field. 128 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.079 You know, my second year spent two weeks of the 129 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.680 Britton Field. Things that you know, a lot of times 130 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.480 you might spend a career in the army, like or 131 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.360 a tour in the Army and just never have the 132 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:53.040 chance to do. 133 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:57.560 I mean, you know, the other thing is is the. 134 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.879 It and it's hard, but it really builds your the 135 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.399 camaraderie and the closeness of your classmates and your friends, 136 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.000 and you know, it's just lifelong friends that you know, 137 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:12.399 you know, you can always count on. 138 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.800 The last episode that we filmed earlier today. Actually, Lindsay 139 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:20.360 was the. 140 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.720 First captain I think is the very cool. 141 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:27.160 Yeah, like the fourth woman to ever have that position 142 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:28.040 at West Point. 143 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.480 Yeah, very cool. So she did pretty well for herself 144 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:30.920 over there. 145 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:33.240 Yeah. 146 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:34.160 I didn't do that well. 147 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.160 You were the guy that had to what it's the 148 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:39.720 when you get the merits, you have to like walk around. 149 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:40.800 The walk the area. 150 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.519 You walk the area when you get demerits or punishment. 151 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:46.319 I was not bad. 152 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.959 I mean I only had eight hours, so I kind 153 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:53.439 of kept my nose mostly clean, you know, matter truth 154 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:55.879 be told, I just didn't get caught most of the time. 155 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:02.199 But you know, it is so when you went to 156 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:02.800 West Point. 157 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.680 Before you went, did you have an idea of what 158 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:08.839 you wanted to do in the army and did. 159 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:14.160 That change or form while you were at West Point? Yeah? 160 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:16.560 This is uh, that's this is part of the unfortunate thing, 161 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.319 I think, coming from a non military family, not knowing 162 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.519 anything about really service other than what my dad and 163 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:30.959 my uncle had talked to me about, and you know, shocker, 164 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.360 the West Point experience is not like the experience in 165 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:35.519 the real army like nothing like it. 166 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.960 Yeah, and your your dad and was your uncle. 167 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:41.759 I mean, they experience the massive global war drafted probably 168 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:44.679 for like a year's period of time, a little bit 169 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:47.879 different than what you were experienced completely do from. 170 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:49.960 The you know, volunteer army. 171 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.879 So I went to West Point, wasn't really sure what I, 172 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.759 you know, was going to do. After graduating, I actually 173 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.639 went in military intelligence for the first four years and 174 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.679 found it was not a good fit for me. 175 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:05.919 And I was really kind of fortunate though. 176 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.519 One of my bosses, my company commander, it's one hundred 177 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.480 first infature guy. You know, this is back in the day. 178 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:15.240 There's a pre email, right, but they're sending notices through 179 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:16.679 you through division mail. 180 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.759 Like photocopies. And I had a photo. 181 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.679 Copy that I was looking at my desk and it was, 182 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:25.080 you know, try out for SF. And he looked at 183 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:28.159 me and he's like, I know you, Frank. He's like, 184 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.000 you're a good fit for it. And he's like, if 185 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:33.039 you don't do it, he'll regret it the rest of 186 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:33.519 your life. 187 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:36.759 And that's one of the best piece of advice I've ever. 188 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:42.000 Been given, and you know, went through made it. 189 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.600 You know, so you get to group then what is 190 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:47.399 it ninety. 191 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:47.919 Six or so? 192 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:49.519 No, I get to group ninety eight. 193 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:54.919 Okay, so you know stopovers, Ranger School, Q course, you 194 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:59.159 know Armor Advance Course, you know, kind of like the pathway. 195 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.720 The Armor Advanced Course, So you have to go through 196 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.360 that as like Captain's Career course. 197 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:03.399 Scre course gotrip. 198 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:09.559 Yeah, And at that point SF for officers was singing 199 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:12.519 the decent amount of guys there because of like the 200 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:16.039 FID mission, you know, Middle East, a lot of tanks, 201 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.759 a lot of mechnized warfare, So there was kind of 202 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.480 an emphasis on sending at least a good slew of 203 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:25.759 the guys who would go to fifth group to THEOS. 204 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.879 Yeah, very interesting. Cool, So you get to fifth group, tell. 205 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.879 Us about landing on a team now mid to late 206 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:37.840 nineteen nineties, what you guys were up to? 207 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.039 You know, there's no better job in the Army than 208 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:44.440 being anf team leader. Like, it's just not it's just 209 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:49.000 a at least I was very fortunate. I had a 210 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:55.879 good team. It was young, but still a couple enough 211 00:10:55.879 --> 00:11:00.279 experienced guys to you know, have strength there and. 212 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:02.559 They're hungry. 213 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.480 They wanted to deploy, they wanted to you know, go 214 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.440 out and do things. So I got a you know, 215 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:12.320 trip to Kosovo. During that time period, we did three 216 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:14.000 JTF six missions. 217 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.639 And then this is a lot on the border. 218 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.600 Yeah, this is all after the period where the Marine 219 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.159 shot the Mexican kid on the Mexican side of the 220 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:25.960 border and then they shot shut down the hide site 221 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.840 operations and effectively we're doing FID with. 222 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:29.919 Law enforcement agencies. 223 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:34.480 Okay, but it was also kind of a cost effective 224 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.159 because they would pay for our travel out there. 225 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.480 We would pay for our trucks to get out there, 226 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:42.840 and you're doing desert training basically. 227 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.000 Exactly right, piggyback, like two three weeks of desert training 228 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:49.399 out there, do just cool stuff, go out the Imperial 229 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:53.360 Sand Dunes, you know, National Park in California and driving 230 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.120 over three hundred foot dunes at night with nods. 231 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.200 I mean, it's just it's awesome. 232 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:05.159 You had the whole like ansabrego out there and yeah, yeah, yeah. 233 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.840 So and then Kosovo is interesting that you got that 234 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.399 trip because that was mostly like tenth group guys, right, yep. 235 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:13.320 They had a small contingent called the U A l 236 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.720 CE again a fid SFA mission where there's a combined 237 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:23.559 Amoradi and Jordanian soft presence, and so we were there 238 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.759 to be their advisors, to connect with the you know, 239 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:31.039 the AOB that was there as well as you know, 240 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.320 there was some early kind of rumblings of you know, 241 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.480 Islamic extremism was starting to pop up even then in 242 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:42.399 Kosovo that we were some of our guys were plugged into. 243 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.399 Yeah, the Iranian influence too Iranian. 244 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.159 There was more Cindy threat at least when I was there. 245 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.679 I mean I could have changed afterwards, but the threat 246 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:56.879 was more a Q or you know pre AQ or 247 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.879 you know, just Sydney extremists. 248 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.519 And so then where were you guys at when nine 249 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:06.399 to eleven happened? 250 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:11.000 Yeah, I was at Georgetown studying actually Arab studies. 251 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:13.080 I was doing like five and a half. 252 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:17.279 Hours Arabic a day as well as regular master's load. 253 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:19.759 I was going to go teach at West Point. 254 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:25.879 And yeah, I mean, you know, saw the Pentagon burning 255 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:30.320 from the hill at Georgetown and here a bass mover, 256 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.080 you know, sixteen flying over you know, US City, which 257 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:38.679 is you know, at that point, it was just unimaginable. 258 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.559 This is something that you. 259 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.759 Know, you knew the world had kind of forever changed 260 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:43.799 at that point. 261 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.720 And yeah, and what was the next stop for you 262 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:49.919 after Georgetown? 263 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:52.960 Yeah, I went to teach at West Point for two years, 264 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.840 and I went went to branch asked that. 265 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.759 I was like, hey, Bosky, get me in the fight. 266 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.960 You no like speak Arabic. I'm a you know two 267 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:06.159 plus two plus three at that point. Yeah, so really 268 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:07.720 like very. 269 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.440 Functional, and you know it's like, look, you know, maybe. 270 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.279 It's tragical reserve to have your chance. And I did 271 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:19.960 have my chance. So yeah, I taught at West Point 272 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.320 for two years teaching history. I got to do Best 273 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:27.240 Ranger during that time period too, and eleven Worth two 274 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:28.360 I say, did. 275 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:32.000 It twice and then back to fifth group. After that, 276 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:32.759 back to fifth group. 277 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:36.000 Yeah, yeah, I had a brava company. Five twenty I 278 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:40.320 took to Iraq just south of Moosol and Ninola Province, 279 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:48.399 so Hantra to Mahmour to Hamama Alil and then uh 280 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:54.559 Kayada also of a you know area that really went 281 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:59.600 from bizarre because it included past the green line into 282 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.679 you know, Kirstan all the way to the border up 283 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.879 to the southern elements of the Soul. 284 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.879 And so you're a company commander of this commander and 285 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.080 what was So you have six teams over there, I 286 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.279 have four teams, you fourteen. Yeah, this is what were 287 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:19.600 your company's partner forces at the time. 288 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:21.360 So the partner forces. 289 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:26.600 The at Aki military had basically collapsed in November of 290 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.000 I think it was November four and they hadn't really 291 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.799 been fully reconstituted. So we deployed, if I remember correctly, 292 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.679 in May, and it was like an off cycle where 293 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:42.440 they deployed a conglomerate of like third Group, nineteenth Group, 294 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:46.200 fifth Group under a fifth group battalion headquarters to like 295 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.759 try to get the at Aki army in Ninia kind 296 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.519 of back up the par and that was the core 297 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.320 of it. So we had everything from a battalion that 298 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.480 was mostly Shia that had stickers of look that so 299 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:04.519 other on their a k you know, buttstocks too, you 300 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:09.360 know Kurdish you know former Pesh America battalions that you go. 301 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.679 Into their area guys, Yeah, you know, I. 302 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.559 Think they were KDP actually on on the ones that 303 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.440 we were with with you know, the the Kurdish flag 304 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.879 as most the Iraqi flag, and you know they're well 305 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.399 organized arms rooms as most of the general chaos two 306 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:34.120 on the border a sunny former chick who everyone just referred. 307 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:43.080 To as you know, uh tony soprano sacks of money 308 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:44.919 down in the basement of the mosque. 309 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.159 Would not surprise me. They were quite crazy stories that 310 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:55.039 we'd hear. But and also he's kind of pretty thuggish. 311 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.879 So so how did how. 312 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.519 Did that deployment play out for you guys? 313 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.279 You know, it was you know, it's not a high adventure. 314 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:11.720 It's not like you know, Flujah Ramadi, you know, get 315 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:16.559 shot out occasionally, but nothing like, you know, not high drama, 316 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.960 so not in the thick of anything. Some of the teams, 317 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.160 you know, other companies kind of had more you know, 318 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.240 they're out at telef So it was kind of there's 319 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.039 operation that ran. 320 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.119 There was nuts back then. 321 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:38.440 Yeah, but you know, it was a it was a 322 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.440 mix because even by that point it was very clear 323 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:46.519 that the Iraqis were really liminating what we were, at 324 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.599 least with the regular army, what we could kind of 325 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.279 do and reach into their units and kind of control, 326 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.519 and you know, it'd be like, okay, you know, why 327 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:00.400 are we having the same platoon you know, rotate through 328 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.319 from different battalions. I thought we're supposed to partner with 329 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.480 one battalion for the whole six months. You know, we're 330 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:11.079 not like basic trainers where platform drill sergeants that the 331 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:13.160 guys come in, we trained them for a month and 332 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.240 they leave and then you're rotating your next unit in. 333 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.519 Like that's not you know, what we signed up for, 334 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.119 and that's not what we want you to do because 335 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:21.839 it's wornless. 336 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:22.079 Right. 337 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.480 But regardless of the complaining up the chain, you know, 338 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:28.680 nothing ever happened. 339 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.720 What was your you know, your you're fairly senior at 340 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:37.559 this point in time, and you know you have more 341 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.559 of a direct line to you know, command decisions and 342 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.640 things like that, yeah, than you know then a guy 343 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:48.039 on an eighteen for instance, what was your impression of 344 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.200 the US management of the war. 345 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.119 So that's a great question. 346 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.640 I distinctly remember when General Casey, who is the MNFI commander, 347 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.559 he flew up. We all went up, the most sold 348 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.680 the whole battalion, uh, you know, team sergeants, team leaders, 349 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.799 and team warrants and met with him as he briefed 350 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.640 on the campaign plan and kind of how we fit 351 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:14.599 into it. And at that point, the whole strategy was 352 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.440 basically transition, and it was that within like a year 353 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:20.799 or two we were going he shrunk down to like 354 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.680 two bases, and we were going to minimize contact with 355 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:29.920 the Atrocis because we were effectively creating antibodies. 356 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.920 Where you know, there were more. 357 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.119 We were creating more insurgents than we killed, just because 358 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.079 we were the Americans being there, right, And you know, 359 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:46.160 we sat through that brief. I remember another major and 360 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.160 I and afterwards we looked at each other and I 361 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.319 can't remember who it was. One of us said, we're 362 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:54.119 really going to lose this thing, aren't we. 363 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:57.759 And the other one of us said, yeah, we. 364 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.799 Are, because I mean, if you know, the just basic 365 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.359 precepts of counterinsurgency theory, like transition is particularly when the 366 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.200 Arakis aren't nowhere near ready and you know, this is 367 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.319 like a month or two into it, or we're like, 368 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.680 holy smokes, we got like ten years of work with 369 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:15.759 these guys to like get them to like where they 370 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.359 need to be, right, and they're telling us we're gonna 371 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:21.400 be transitioning in at four bases in like eighteen months, 372 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.000 and we're backing up and leaving, like that's not gonna. 373 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:26.319 Work, right? 374 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.559 Did you think that's because they were just like on 375 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.200 our side, just unseerious about the war or were they 376 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.480 really so deluded that they believed that this was a possibility. 377 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:38.960 So I think there's two factors going on. 378 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:43.039 Is I do think Casey and General Avizade, who was 379 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:45.200 the same comm commander at that point, I think they 380 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.400 actually both believed in kind of the antibody theory and 381 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.799 that we were creating more insurgents. 382 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:53.880 By just being there. 383 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:56.680 So I want to take a minute today to tell 384 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.559 you guys about the Perfect Gene. I've been wearing them 385 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.000 for a few weeks now and really enjoy them, and 386 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.880 I just want to share it with our audience. You know, 387 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.400 sometimes jeans have this problem where you know, you guys 388 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.079 all have seen these skinny genes that they like crush 389 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:13.480 your balls and you know it's just not comfortable to 390 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.359 wear or the other way around. Jeans are like too baggy. 391 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:18.400 You know, you have this sort of like diaper in 392 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.400 your ass area looks like. So there are these problems 393 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.440 that you know, different fits of different types of genes have, 394 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.359 and the Perfect Gene strives to fix that, both the 395 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:34.680 fit but also the mobility, the maneuverability. It has a 396 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.440 stretchy fabric, like they say, it's like yoga ready. But 397 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.000 you know, I would say it's athletics ready, you know, 398 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.799 moving furniture, doing things around the house. 399 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.240 You're not going to have that like super. 400 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.079 Tight, like constricted fit that you feel like you're not 401 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:51.240 gonna be able to move around in. 402 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:53.119 And there are over. 403 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.039 Four hundred thousand people out there wearing these jeans at 404 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:58.480 this point, so not all of them can be wrong. 405 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.200 I hope you guys will go and check them out. 406 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.519 So a few scenarios where you can wear these genes 407 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:08.680 and where they really come together, everything from you know, 408 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.640 doing yard work or doing things around your house, if 409 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:13.640 you have to move furniture around, or you have to 410 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.599 do handiwork. They're perfectly comfortable, but you can wear them, 411 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.160 you know, getting your man spread on on the subway 412 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.440 if that's your thing. So the Perfect Gene is great 413 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.720 for all kinds of different environments, whether it's doing handiwork 414 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.720 around the house or on the job, or athletics. And 415 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:32.759 we really hope you guys will go and check them out. 416 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.319 For a limited time, our listeners get fifteen percent off 417 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.599 their first order plus free shipping at the Perfect Gene 418 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.880 dot NYC or google the Perfect Gene and use the 419 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.759 code House fifteen for fifteen percent off. That's fifteen percent 420 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:51.119 off for new customers at the Perfect Gene dot NYC 421 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.680 with promo code house fifteen. After you purchase, they'll ask 422 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.160 you where you heard about them, Please support our show 423 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.279 and tell them we sent you. So fuck your takis 424 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.480 and get the Perfect Gene. 425 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:09.039 And there, you know, the prescription for that was like, Okay, 426 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.640 minimize presence, go to minimal footprint. And you know that 427 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:18.000 works if a you know you're now having you don't have. 428 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.319 A civil war to contend. 429 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.400 With, be the political and military side of the Iraqis 430 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:30.759 are capable of being transitioned to and see that if 431 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:35.519 you really have beaten back the insurgency to the point 432 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:38.759 where you don't have that kind of threat also, and 433 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:42.480 none of those were viable at that point. So it's 434 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:48.880 to me, it's it was madness. And I'll tell you so. 435 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.240 My last job in the army was one of the writers, 436 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.519 and then I took over the writing the operational history 437 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:02.480 of the Rock War and going into it, my like 438 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.440 core premise was like, no, these guys couldn't have believed that, 439 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:07.759 Like it's nuts to believe. 440 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.559 It, right, Like, and I sat. 441 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.839 Down and I think I had twenty seven hours with 442 00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:18.440 General Casey of like person in person interviews, eighteen hours 443 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.039 with General Sanchez who's the you know CJTF seven commander 444 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:29.400 from like four to six, and General Abizaide interview Jenn 445 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.039 Abozide also all sorts of others. 446 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.359 And they actually really believed it. 447 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.160 Wow, like I you know, it wasn't you know, and 448 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.960 going through the documents, they really believed it. And in 449 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.720 some ways, you know, afterwards they argue that how things 450 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.119 turned out proved them right in effact that they wanted 451 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:55.799 to transition because theoretically they didn't think it was ever 452 00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:02.960 possible in it ack. But yeah, I it's weird, I 453 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:06.079 think there. You know, my original premise was that there's 454 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.680 so much political pressure on them, you know, from the 455 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.799 Bush administration who just wanted to move on, as well 456 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.480 as from the title ten Army you know, the organized 457 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.400 train equip and other marines, other elements of the Joint 458 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.359 chiefs that were like whoa, like, we are. 459 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:24.880 Way over committed here. 460 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.240 We're going to lose transformation, We're going to lose all 461 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:31.079 these weapons systems that we want to use to focus 462 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.640 on the next you know, pure near peer competitor and 463 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.799 we want to get out of I Rock. I thought 464 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.039 that there was so much pressure on them from all 465 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.839 these sources that they just decided, okay, yeah, we gave 466 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:48.440 my best military advice and I moved on. But their 467 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:50.720 best military advice was that transition. 468 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.480 I'm curious because you know, I spent like three years 469 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.400 in and out of there a lot, and I used 470 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:00.799 to think about, like, what's going on because we see, 471 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.680 you know, when you do sixty day trips at a time, but. 472 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:09.400 You do three trips a year over you know, three years. 473 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.480 And you see you see the same thing over and 474 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:18.640 over again. I felt as though our government was too 475 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:23.480 hung up on the the concept of liberation, right, we 476 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:28.319 liberate these people from Saddam, and then it's done. Where 477 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.039 when you see past World War two, for instance, you 478 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.039 break it, you buy it. So we stayed in Germany, 479 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.519 we stayed in Japan until those countries were rebuilt, and 480 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:44.000 we didn't shy away from the word occupation where this 481 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:45.279 is like it was such a. 482 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:47.279 Nation building it's the other that we shot. 483 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.640 Yeah, it is such a like it was such a 484 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.960 politically sense. At no point in time did anybody ever 485 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:59.000 want to say we are we are occupying Iraq, and 486 00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:02.119 so we basically, like I said, we went in there 487 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.480 and we kicked it over and then we went okay, 488 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.559 you know, well we're here to facilitate, but we're not 489 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:08.200 doing it for you. 490 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.079 Yeah. 491 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.160 I mean there's there's a lot to unpacked there, and 492 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:13.480 I agree with you completely. 493 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.839 So like there was. 494 00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:20.319 It was crazy because like the Joint staffs, there are 495 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:24.920 these interviews like beforehand that they are like unquoted members 496 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.759 of the geos who wouldn't give their names, would say, hey, 497 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.599 I want to pike a post a big sign on 498 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.359 the pentagon that says we don't. 499 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:32.880 Do nation building. 500 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:36.920 And and it was a combination of the uniform services 501 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.240 but also the civilian defense leaders, you know, whether it 502 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.319 be Rumsfeld or others within the administration at that point 503 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:46.920 who who were allergic. 504 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.079 To it, like Somalia and things like that they'd seen in. 505 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:54.920 The past, completely Somalia, Kosovo, you know, the Yugoslavia, all 506 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:58.440 those they fought were a waste of resources. And I mean, 507 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.000 I think you can make a viable strategic argument on 508 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.880 the value or lack thereof of Kosovo or Balkans or Somalia. 509 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.319 And I think there are arguments that can be made 510 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:16.480 either way, but to then drag that into Okay, we're 511 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:24.000 gonna you know, topple Iraq, which is the traditional counterbalance 512 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.599 to Iran, which is our greatest threat in the region, 513 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:29.319 and then just leave. 514 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:34.880 Like seems sure there's a strategic. 515 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:38.519 Lack of foresight there. That is, that's you know, where 516 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:43.400 it's on criminal negligence. And and so there really was. 517 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:47.519 I mean, the they the many of the civilian leaders. 518 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:50.960 One of the civilian leaders actually had proposed that there 519 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:54.880 was one brigade, right, I need to remember the there's 520 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:59.359 intrinsic action or whatever they called it, the one brigade 521 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:04.880 on the collect you know, doing not peacekeeping but deterrence 522 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:09.599 in Kuwait. And the civilian leadership is like, we have 523 00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:14.119 a brigade there, we can launch now. And the military 524 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.480 leaders were like, wait, no, you need like, you know, 525 00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.079 four or five divisions, you know. And there's the famous 526 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:25.039 engagement where General Shinseki and then Secretary of White, Secretary 527 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:28.240 of the Army White who actually gave testimony before Congress 528 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.119 where they said, well, we would need several hundred thousand 529 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:35.119 soldiers to be able to properly, you know, do nation 530 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:39.160 building in Iraq. And I mean they got effectively, White 531 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:43.079 got fired over it, Shinseki got his career terminated early, 532 00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:47.640 he didn't get extended, Brunsfeldt. 533 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.400 Didn't go to his retirement. 534 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.720 So clearly, you know, lost off the Christmas or holiday cards. 535 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:58.160 And you know, they they thought that a single brigade 536 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.519 kind of like on the Afghan model with soft terminal 537 00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:07.240 guidance jay tax et cetera, precision guide munitions would be 538 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.319 able to topple Sadam. And there's also this bizarre notion 539 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.359 like he said that you know, like almost like the 540 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.599 liberation at Paris in World Ward two, that rather than 541 00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:20.880 you know, flowers are going to throw flaffels at us, right, 542 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.640 you know, like to thank us. I mean, and you 543 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.000 know obviously that was like totally like off. 544 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:26.680 It was insane. 545 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.240 But those are the notions that we kind of went 546 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.880 into it with, and it in some ways, I mean, 547 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.279 there are many. It was interesting because we also had 548 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:44.319 access to all of the detaining interviews with all these 549 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:45.400 insurgent leaders. 550 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.119 And there was also another I don't know if you 551 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:50.799 ever heard of Bill Naherr. He think he was a 552 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:51.640 SF guy. 553 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.359 He ended up going to j Sound, but one of 554 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:59.039 the projects he did was he went into Jordan in 555 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:05.960 the eleven to like thirteen time period and interviewed all 556 00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.599 these former Sunni insurgeon leaders. 557 00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:11.039 And so many of them, like it was like almost 558 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:12.359 the same comments. 559 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:18.119 They're like, yeah, you know, when you guys toppled Saddam, 560 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.880 you know, we we had hope, Like we were thinking, 561 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.359 like this is America. This is you know, the country 562 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.480 that you know put a man on the moon that 563 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.400 you know, blotted out the skies, or a Nazi Germany 564 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.039 with you know, bombers to like blotted out the sun. 565 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:33.799 There were so many but. 566 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.599 You guys couldn't even get gas to the gas stations 567 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.160 right in the third country with the most oil in 568 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.319 the world, right, like they just it just they're like, 569 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.000 you know, so we and I mean, you know, the 570 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.440 conspiracy theorist are so much throughout the Middle. 571 00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:53.240 East, so they're like, well they think it's intentional, like oh, 572 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:55.279 this is part of your plant, that's exactly right. 573 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.799 They're like, well, what is this is it intentional? Are 574 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:01.279 they trying to bring you know, the Persia over, you know, 575 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:01.759 which is. 576 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:05.359 The level of paranoid reaches the point to sometimes like 577 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:07.920 not even exaggerating, more like it'll rain outside and be 578 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:12.960 like see I ended that. And I think a lot 579 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.440 of it does come from like American movies, like our culture, 580 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:18.039 the way it projects into the. 581 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.319 Like because I remember talking to people. 582 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:22.160 And they'd be like, if you guys really wanted Asama 583 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.240 bin Laden dead, you just sent Bruce Willison kill. 584 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:24.720 Them and to be over. 585 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:28.839 Yeah, they there's death. They do believe the movies. They 586 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.799 believe that America has this omnipodence. 587 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.279 And we backflip over triple strand concertina wire and all 588 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.759 that good stuff, and you know. 589 00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.759 Just just the war plans in general, Like when when 590 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:45.000 we went in, I remember going through these bases, these 591 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:48.160 empty Iraqi bases that had been stripped of, you know, 592 00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.319 all the copper and and everything, and I was like, 593 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.559 where are the Iraqi forces? If we weren't fighting Iraq? Right, 594 00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:58.200 if we were, if we were, if we were getting 595 00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:02.599 rid of Saddam, why was there not a psyops company? 596 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:05.359 Why were they not dropping flyers over these bases telling 597 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:10.000 the Rocky Army, hey, put your weapons down, state, remain 598 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:14.559 in place. We're taking over your payroll. Like like, where 599 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.799 where did we come up with this idea of completely 600 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.359 obliterating every aspect of a country And then not taking 601 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:25.440 responsibility for building that country back up. 602 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.799 Yeah, And I mean there's so many just just crazy 603 00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.400 like when you you know, historically reviewed it, it's like 604 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:35.920 madness because there's no logic to it. 605 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.400 Yeah, and the. 606 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.039 You know, we're fortunate we actually got four hours to 607 00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:44.599 interview President Bush kind of talk to him. There are 608 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.960 three people who refused us to be interviewed Robby. One 609 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.720 of them was Rumsfeld, and so unfortunately we didn't get 610 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:59.480 his perspective. We got Bremer's perspective, we got Secretary Condo 611 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:04.519 Liza Rice, this perspective. So many different people, and the 612 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.960 core question of CPA Orders number one and two, which 613 00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:10.920 disbanded the Unarchy Army and then. 614 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:12.320 Outlawed the Bath Party. 615 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.679 It's gonna be one of the historical questions that I 616 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:18.880 think it's gonna probably take. 617 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:23.599 So I'll figure out the mild spoiler alert. And I 618 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.000 can't tell this story because it's not really my story 619 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.119 to tell. But Tim Winer knows a lot about how 620 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:34.199 that unfolded with Ian Bremer and the Debathification, and I 621 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:36.719 believe it's gonna be in his new book that's coming 622 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.639 out cool. And he told it to me, But it 623 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:40.519 was like over a drink in a bar. I don't 624 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:42.599 want to get ahead of his work that hasn't been 625 00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:44.920 published yet, but so stay tuned for that. 626 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.760 But it is an interesting subject. I would be curious. 627 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:53.000 I've thrown a lot of shade Bremer's way since, you know, 628 00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.159 since that time, and I would be very curious, And 629 00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.960 maybe I'm completely wrong, but I would be curious how 630 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.239 your interview with him went. 631 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.559 Yeah, so I was not in that interview with Bramerus okayself, 632 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.000 I did Bush a bunch of others. 633 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:12.320 Tell us about w I mean, I would be fascinating 634 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:13.719 here his perspectives. 635 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:15.880 So one of the things we did ask him about 636 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.960 that question, and you know, he said, look, I'm hands 637 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.559 off manager. I trust the people who are on the 638 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.280 ground more than the people in Washington, and I'm going 639 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:31.159 to let you know the people there call audibles and 640 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:33.559 when if they want to make a decision based on 641 00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:35.280 what they're seeing, I'm going to let them make the 642 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:36.599 decision based on what they're seeing. 643 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:40.280 So his core premise was that, Okay, it happened in 644 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:40.719 at Ock. 645 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:45.199 We it was kind of conflicting guidance and it wasn't 646 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:48.079 clear to us even from what we could because we 647 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:51.760 didn't have access to the National Security Council, the White 648 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:56.119 House all those kind of records, or we didn't you know, 649 00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:59.760 we've had sentcom, we had you know, MNFI C, JTF 650 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:03.760 seven and all those, but not any you know, not 651 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:09.559 the Joint Staff either. The there was a notion though 652 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:15.360 from some within the Defense Department that there's this perception 653 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:18.960 that the Bath Party equals the Nazi Party, and that 654 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:24.639 so to reinvigorate Iraq and renew Iraq, that it had 655 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:29.519 to be expunged, which is bizarre because it like totally 656 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.239 is not historically accurate, right, Like we it's more. 657 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:36.760 Like the CCP in a way or whatever. Right, it's 658 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.400 more a. 659 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:42.039 Yeah, and I mean we we employed Nazis, you know, 660 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:46.360 after the Nazi Party members in Germany and in our 661 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:52.079 space program after the war. Part of it is because 662 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:55.760 we wanted the trains to run time. And there's you know, 663 00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:00.760 there's there's a degree of there's you know, you know, 664 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.320 perfectness to it, but there's also a practicality to it, 665 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.960 like that there's you know, when they run. 666 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.079 Your public works, when they run everything. 667 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.480 Everything right, you know, to be about you know, if 668 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:14.639 you're not about party member, you're going to be a janitor, right, 669 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.239 It's it's just like you said, it's the CCP, you know, 670 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.960 the Communist Party. You know, like if you're not a member, 671 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:22.039 good luck. 672 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:26.079 So where do you think the disconnect came about? Because 673 00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:29.159 what President Bush was describing there is, on its face 674 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.079 of it, not really a bad thing. He's delegating decisions 675 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:34.000 down to guys who are on the ground and saying, 676 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.320 you have to address the terrain as you see it. 677 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.719 But nonetheless, you know, all these other problems we've been mentioning. 678 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:43.320 I mean, where did the thing did it start to 679 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.480 come a part at the geo level? That's the popular 680 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:48.920 answer perhaps, but maybe it's too obvious. 681 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.119 So the Bush interview is very interesting because you know, 682 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:56.000 in some ways, you know, politicians tell very little. 683 00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:57.119 You get very little out. 684 00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:59.239 Of the interviews because you're just not gonna they're not 685 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:02.159 gonna bear their soul, particularly someone that they've never met before, 686 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.239 who isn't from the same culture they are, you know, 687 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.360 and not you know, some geos. 688 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:10.719 Gave useless interviews. 689 00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:15.360 Others I had three geos breakdown like sobbing, like during 690 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.519 the interviews, like I had to stop the recording and. 691 00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:22.760 Could Yeah, I mean and so there's it's a mix, 692 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.840 you know. Bush. It was one of the most interesting 693 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:29.079 things was you could almost. 694 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:33.639 Tell by like his his body posture and how when 695 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.639 we started talking about Rumsfeld it changed a little bit 696 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:41.400 kind of from that jovial I mean, you know, I'm 697 00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:44.320 just gonna say, kind of goofballish almost like you know, 698 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:51.000 he's a fun guy, right, he's you know two, I 699 00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.519 almost detected a little bit of anger, you know, and 700 00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:54.519 just that reading the. 701 00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:57.280 Reading him. 702 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.360 So I think that particularly early on, there were a 703 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:04.440 lot of mistakes made because of. 704 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:06.760 Rumsfeld. 705 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.960 But I think in parallel. 706 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:15.360 At least my premise is that the uniformed services, the generals, 707 00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:20.440 the strategy of the transition strategy was completely wrong for 708 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:21.760 the time period. 709 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:27.719 And you know, if we'd done. 710 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.559 The surge three years earlier, the whole thing might have 711 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:32.880 turned out okay. 712 00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.119 But instead we. 713 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:40.159 You know, try the transition strategy while a civil war 714 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:42.159 basically a slow burns of wars. 715 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:46.079 Was the surgeon seven surges and seven, yeah, because there was. 716 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:49.639 A mini surgeon of four, right, I'm trying to remember, 717 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.119 but I know there was a major surgeon of the 718 00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:53.320 big surgeons sevenct. 719 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:53.559 Yeah. 720 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:56.679 So I want to come back to the Iraq War study. 721 00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.159 I mean there's a lot to talk about there, but 722 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.239 also I want to talk about the controversy. But uh, 723 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:06.719 continuing along your career, you spent some time as three operations, Yeah, as. 724 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.519 The S three for first Battalion and fifth Group. 725 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:12.320 And then legal at Tasha No. 726 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:16.599 So I went to a Legislative AFFAIRRIS for SOCOM, and so. 727 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:19.840 I actually like that job. That's up on the hill 728 00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:21.039 right it's the Congress. 729 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:25.119 So yeah, you are the liaison between SOCOM and Congress 730 00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:31.679 and you're doing everything from budgets to authorizations to your 731 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:37.679 like the travel guide for congressional members and staff when 732 00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:41.480 they're doing visits to the base codels and codels and 733 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:45.800 staff dells. And I ended up mostly on the Senate side, 734 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.320 mostly in the Arm Service Committee working with them, but 735 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:52.079 a little bit on appropriators too, And I mean I 736 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.719 like the job for a couple of reasons. You know, 737 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:59.119 one of the authorities that we ended up fighting and 738 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:02.639 protect thing was the Live Tissue Training Authority. 739 00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.079 There were there's a member PETA. 740 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.039 There was a movement to shut that down. 741 00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.119 There was a movement to shut it down in. 742 00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:15.440 It's either ten or eleven where Pete had gotten something 743 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.599 like forty seven members of Congress to sign onto a 744 00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:20.880 bill to terminate live tissue training. 745 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.559 They did end up they contracted out. Now it's like 746 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:25.920 kind of the workaround. 747 00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:27.159 Yeah yeah. 748 00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.800 So so then it was serious, and so we came 749 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:33.760 up with a strategy and you know, like I'm like, look, 750 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.400 let's bring wounded guys and like literally go into these 751 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.159 guys who are We're gonna play hardball and going to 752 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:45.119 the guys who signed onto this bill particularly find a constituent, 753 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:48.519 one of their constituents from their district who's wounded, who 754 00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:51.599 can say, look, I'm alive because of live tissue training, right, 755 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:55.239 And we literally had fifteen people on that bill take 756 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:56.480 their name off the bill. 757 00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:58.559 It's amazing so for people. 758 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.320 And so it collapsed and I was like, Okay, you 759 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:03.400 guys can come back in five years and try it again, 760 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.840 but we killed it. 761 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:08.119 For people who are watching who might not know what 762 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:10.880 we're talking about. Live tipshoe training is generally taking a 763 00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:14.960 goat or you know, some other farm animal, but and 764 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.599 pumping them full of ketamine so they don't feel anything, 765 00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:21.440 and then inflicting gunshot wounds or some sort of wound 766 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.639 on them so that the medics and other people, like 767 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:29.800 anybody really on a team can do actual live tissue training, 768 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:35.400 stabilizing life saving procedures, things like that, things that really 769 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:42.280 matter in the field in these traumatic environments. And it's 770 00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:47.760 really priceless training for people who get it. And so 771 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:55.320 Pete decided that, you know that it was cool, and. 772 00:42:56.599 --> 00:42:59.679 You guys managed to circumvent that. 773 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:01.039 We killed the bill. 774 00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:06.079 Yeah, and another occasion, there were two years when the 775 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:10.119 army and is bizarre like totally not understanding like how 776 00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:14.000 the system works. They came up they thought they had 777 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.000 this principal approach that, Okay, we're not going to try 778 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.880 for any ear marks or ads. We'm not gonna try 779 00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:20.880 for any correstional ads. 780 00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.480 No pork barrel politics. We're not gonna do any park 781 00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:24.440 barrel politics. 782 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.960 We're not going to submit a up list and unfinancid 783 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:32.639 requirements list. Man, I made like two hundred and fifty 784 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.960 million dollars a year for so Com. I got additional helicopters, 785 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:39.039 I got frees drive plasma, I got all sorts of 786 00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:43.719 I got you know, dog handling teams and uh, you know. 787 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.119 All sorts of like the seal got boats. 788 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:50.920 I mean we this cleared house those years because the 789 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.880 way the game is played on the hill is that 790 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.199 money's there, right, and it's gonna go to someone. 791 00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.199 Yeah, you have to fight for it, and you have. 792 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.480 To fight for it. The army takes themselves out of 793 00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:07.239 the competition. That money is still there for the taking, right, 794 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:09.719 and you have to make a good argument for it. 795 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.079 And that's why so calm has you up there, that's right, 796 00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:14.480 did you? 797 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.920 I imagine you learned quite a bit about that side 798 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.400 and how it interacts with the military, I mean, how 799 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.360 it works in general, but particularly how it works with 800 00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:23.960 the military. 801 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:27.079 Yeah, you see how poor you know, you see how 802 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:31.719 sausage is made, and I mean there's good and bad, 803 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:36.840 and you know, it's like anything, and many of the 804 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:41.079 members have no clue. Yeah, the members meaning like senators 805 00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.960 or members of the House representative. But there's staffs that 806 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:51.159 sometimes are like the you know, really good and decent 807 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.880 and smart and hard working people that really care, particularly 808 00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.000 on the Armed services committees. And there's a lot of 809 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:02.760 veterans on them too, and people who just really and 810 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:06.920 this is in the era before like partisan politics. I 811 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:10.079 mean it was seven to eleven, where like the people 812 00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:12.000 in the Armed Services Committee man. 813 00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:15.039 You know, they were trying. 814 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:19.440 To do what's right for us, for those in the fight. 815 00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.840 And I mean, you know, one of the funny, well 816 00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:26.639 ironic things is, you know where drones came from, the 817 00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.760 Predator and the Reaper was a Congressional ad. 818 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.280 The Air Force did not want to buy. 819 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:36.480 Them because you know, it's not a pointy O's fighter 820 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.199 pilot or a bomber pop right, So they totally opposed it. 821 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:47.239 It was a forced ad where a California house member 822 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.840 I believe, forced them to you know, support and buy 823 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:57.159 the original Predators from General Atomics. And the Air Force 824 00:45:57.159 --> 00:45:59.199 fought it every step of the way. 825 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:01.800 And they they're like, no, this is the way of 826 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:02.360 the future. 827 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:05.039 You're you, and you need an aircraft that can loiter 828 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:06.480 over your ground. 829 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.840 Guys for like hours. Right, Like I was in a. 830 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:12.400 Sorry, I was in a one meeting where I went 831 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:14.119 out to Vegas and was a. 832 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:15.400 Creach and. 833 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.199 It was a joint Air Force and SOCOM one and 834 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.559 so they're seeing our stuff and the Air Force's stuff. 835 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.400 And I literally had an Air Force two star where 836 00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:30.039 it's an appropriator and appropriators are like the gods of Congress. 837 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:35.199 A real appropriator, a member and this air Force general says, 838 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:42.039 the F twenty two is a coin aircraft, right, Like, 839 00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:44.519 I mean, it's got like fifteen minutes of playtime probably 840 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:46.639 or twenty minutes, and it's not like what two three 841 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.840 four bombs maybe max, no gun, nothing. 842 00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.159 And I literally laughed in front. 843 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.559 Of him, like I laughed in front of him, which 844 00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:56.920 is you know, I I. 845 00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:59.519 Was not invited to a future Air Force tripts. 846 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:01.920 I ended up mostly going with I found a guy 847 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.920 on the army side that would take me on your rips, 848 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.119 and you know then we had this discussion with him 849 00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:12.360 on you know how little value in F twenty two 850 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:16.559 is to guys in the fight, right, It's no value whatsoever. 851 00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:21.199 And it's a you know that was to me why 852 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.719 I enjoyed that job is because even if you doesn't 853 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.519 result in any change, it puts a seed there right 854 00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:34.320 where they started thinking about it, and you know, you 855 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:36.679 just never know what would may come come up it 856 00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:38.159 how how often? 857 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.239 Because obviously the person who pushed for the drones and 858 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.199 said this is the future warfare, I mean it. You know, 859 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:48.679 it's very possible that it was General Dynamics who like 860 00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:49.280 pitched it. 861 00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.360 And you could say that you know, you could say. 862 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:56.840 That you know that they were working commercial interests, but 863 00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:00.719 in that case they were one hundred correct. But then 864 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:05.679 you have somebody who says that this is a coin aircraft. Meanwhile, 865 00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.599 we see that since Vietnam they've tried to get rid 866 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:12.360 of the AC one thirty, which is a coin aircraft. 867 00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:14.280 Or do we want to go on a big rant 868 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.199 about the coin aircraft that we finally got the air 869 00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:21.400 tractor after all the gnashing of teeth about that. 870 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.039 All the willing and gnashing of teeth. 871 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:28.039 Yeah, I you know, I mean it's funny. I even 872 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:33.679 harkened back to a time period when we were there 873 00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.760 where I mean, Congress is like anything else, it's been 874 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.719 of human beings, sure, and there's the good, the bad, 875 00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:42.960 and the ugly right right then. And there are good people. 876 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:44.239 And what I try to do is I try to 877 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.440 find and work with the good people. There are other 878 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.800 people who even in our office. 879 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:54.239 Who would work with Frank Underwood would. 880 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.280 Work with people who were a little you know, not 881 00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.559 exactly where I would like to work with, but you 882 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.880 know they would. 883 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:05.000 They would still get things. 884 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:05.559 Done, you know. 885 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.159 But so we had a occasion where the Silicon Commander 886 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.800 wanted to buy a whole bunch of Uh. I think 887 00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:17.280 they're super Tocano aircraft made by Embryer, which is a 888 00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:19.199 Brazilian company and not a US company. 889 00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:21.320 And that's what SOCOM wanted to be. 890 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:26.159 The coin aircraft, great loiter prop, you know, a prop, 891 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:30.920 extended range, ship ton of stuff you can hang on it. 892 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:35.119 And uh, you know, it came down and if I 893 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:40.599 recall correctly, whether it was Beach or Cessna or both 894 00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:44.199 were up in arms and literally, you know, we had 895 00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:47.079 to bring I don't remember whether it's the deputy or 896 00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:52.159 the Vice down to like defend our position. And they're like, 897 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:56.280 you know, and and they're working through the members from 898 00:49:56.840 --> 00:49:58.519 wherever you know, Beach and. 899 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:02.199 Cesena are to which don and Seattle probably I think so. 900 00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:04.000 Yeah, I think one is in Kansas and the other. 901 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:09.760 Yeah, anyway, and uh, you know they're like a bio 902 00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.280 caracraft and so it comes like, no, it's got you know, 903 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.880 half the later time, half the you know payload. You know, 904 00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:21.039 we don't want it. And and I don't know if 905 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.599 we won that one. I think it ended up getting 906 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:27.119 fought out and extended out, and it just that's one 907 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:30.639 of those where Congress ends up posing it, you know, 908 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:31.400 I mean. 909 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.360 And you know, and yeah, it's tough because from a 910 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:42.000 military perspective, you're like, well that you know, congress person 911 00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:43.440 is is fucked up. 912 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:45.719 But sorry for the language. 913 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:52.239 But from a constituent perspective, that's right. They are right. 914 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.360 They're doing what they were elected to do. 915 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:57.920 That's absolutely right. And so you know, I mean, it's 916 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:00.239 it's to me. One of the things that I tried 917 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:04.039 to advise was, you know, it's like this first soft imperative, 918 00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:08.119 understand your operational environment, figure out how the game is played, 919 00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.599 and then play the game to win. And so what 920 00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:12.239 I would always try to do is I would try 921 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:17.880 to triangulate a visit or a u fur an unfinancial requirement, 922 00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:20.800 like something that we genuinely needed. 923 00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.079 And sometimes, I mean I would go to the you know, the. 924 00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:29.880 Guys I think he was an easy seven down at 925 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:36.000 you know, Delta, who was working stuff like freeze drive plasma, 926 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.119 and you know, like, hey, what do you guys need 927 00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:44.039 and it was approved to the chain of command, and 928 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:48.199 we would align that need with a visit to the 929 00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.039 district where it was made or where it would benefit. 930 00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.400 And that's what you kind of had to triangulate. You 931 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:58.480 know to like to try to get the treaties. 932 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:00.599 That was a big break through too, to get that 933 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:06.840 into the field. I and afterwards you had a garrison deployment. 934 00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:13.039 There were garrison deployment command. Yeah. Far from a deployment. Yeah. 935 00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:17.599 I you know, I competed for a tactical command. I 936 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.159 did not get a tactical command. And this is back 937 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:21.920 in the day where you like, the first time I 938 00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:24.280 actually only put tactical. I was like, no, I just 939 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:27.119 want a tactical command. And then I didn't get a command. 940 00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:31.760 The second year, They're like, look, if you only put 941 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:32.840 tactical again, you are. 942 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.360 Not going to get a battalion command. Like just read 943 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:37.320 the tea Lelyes buddy. 944 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:40.599 So okay, put in a garrison and then got the 945 00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:44.960 Natick Garrison in Massachusetts, which is the Soldier System Center testing. 946 00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:45.440 Yep. 947 00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:50.679 They do you know, uniform testing, they do fire retardant clothing, 948 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:53.239 they do mrs. 949 00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:55.519 All sorts of kind of cool. 950 00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:56.599 Okay. 951 00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:58.679 That kind of dovetailed with your time at Congress a 952 00:52:58.719 --> 00:52:59.119 little bit. 953 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:02.199 There was there was a small also so CAM detachment there. 954 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:03.360 Interesting. 955 00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:06.920 Yeah, Now are they working I mean so yes, I 956 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.199 think are they working with DARPA much and things like that, or. 957 00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:12.199 Is it it's all integrated. 958 00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:19.159 Yeah, you know, DARPA is is even more cutting edge. 959 00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:22.320 NATICK is more boots and uniforms. 960 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.679 Yeah, boot boots, uniforms, MRIs. There's actually a parachute detachment there. 961 00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:29.079 There's civilians who jump. 962 00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:32.199 There, who the. 963 00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:34.400 Steerable parachutes, you know, the ones with like the GPS 964 00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:38.440 hanger on it. They would fly the in Afghanistan that 965 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:41.440 came out and ate it too. So interesting are these 966 00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:45.880 small detaishments of you know, like thirty pound brain dudes 967 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:46.519 and dude ads. 968 00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:49.159 Yeah, yeah, just thinking about that the other day for 969 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:51.000 some reason. I don't know why I popped in there 970 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.920 that I heard about how like we actually have classified 971 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:55.119 parachute projects. 972 00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:56.639 It's like it's kind of cool. 973 00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:01.960 Yeah, not if you were the test jumper, of course, 974 00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:03.719 but otherwise it's pretty cool. 975 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.360 Yeah, uh okay. 976 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:09.760 And then how did you end up getting selected for 977 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.079 the Iraq War study? 978 00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:12.280 How did that come about? Yeah? 979 00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:15.000 So I was most likely thinking, hey, I'm going to 980 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.800 get out of the army. I didn't want to go 981 00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:20.519 to USA, soak or it's even worse to Installation Management Command, 982 00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.800 you know, like changing colors on slides and happy to glad. 983 00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:29.440 But at the last minute, my office mate from West 984 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:34.559 Point called and was like, hey, Jenna Odierno, who's the 985 00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:36.599 chief of Staff of the Army, was putting together a 986 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:39.679 team to write the official operational history of the Rock 987 00:54:39.719 --> 00:54:43.559 War for the Army and they need an eighteen series 988 00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:47.039 guy who is read on to you know, both sides 989 00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:51.480 because one of Odino's specified tasks because he's like, hey, 990 00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:55.320 I need to capture the soft story because of this 991 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:57.280 soft story is not told. 992 00:54:57.599 --> 00:54:59.360 We're not telling the story of the Iraq War. 993 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:03.679 And so they wanted an eighteen series of must fill 994 00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:07.239 eighteen series Alpha, eighteen Alpha plus. 995 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:10.440 They needed somebody who spoke real right Arabic. 996 00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.800 And you know, my friend knew me and he's like, hey, 997 00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:18.000 you want to do it, And I'm like sure, so. 998 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:18.559 Tell us about it. 999 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:20.960 Kind of like you mentioned a little bit before we 1000 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.800 started recording, like the research process and how it was 1001 00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:27.719 all digitized, but it was completely unorganized. 1002 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:31.000 Yeah, So I mean that was wow. 1003 00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:34.639 You know, we had such a great opportunity because we 1004 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:39.400 did both oral history interviews but also archival research and 1005 00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:44.880 our team did you know, thousands of hours of interviews 1006 00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:48.480 with everyone from President Bush down to you know, E 1007 00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:54.920 seven's in key positions. On the archival side, almost everything's digitized. 1008 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:58.199 And so we were fortunate in the General Odierno, who's 1009 00:55:58.239 --> 00:55:59.639 the chief staff of the time. 1010 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:01.480 Had worked with. 1011 00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:08.599 Scottie miller No, the sent Comm commander at the time. 1012 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:14.880 I'm drawing a buying for some reason Austin and they 1013 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:18.079 were tight, and so he called him and it was like, look, 1014 00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:21.159 can I'm putting it the other team to write the 1015 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.320 first kind of draft of history for this? Can I 1016 00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:26.159 send a team down? Will you give them access to 1017 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:30.039 all the Sentcom archives? And Austin is like, sure, whatever 1018 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:33.480 you want. And so we literally got access to all 1019 00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:37.960 of the archives at scent Com, all the archives at 1020 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:42.800 the Center Military History in DC, all the archives at 1021 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:47.519 Levenworth and at Carlisle. There's archives like all over the place. 1022 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:48.920 It's really weird. 1023 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:49.400 You know. 1024 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:53.360 Some of them like literally are the hard drives of 1025 00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:56.559 the multi National Force of Rock headquarters and we would 1026 00:56:56.599 --> 00:56:59.199 have to plug into it and you know there's like 1027 00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:03.440 we're terrible data on that one drive, not organized at all, 1028 00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:07.679 and there's everything on there from like porn to like dudes, 1029 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:08.199 you know. 1030 00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:10.800 iTunes, music to movies, to. 1031 00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:14.760 Photos of an accident and accidental discharge with a gate guard. 1032 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:17.599 You know, whatever, fob It. 1033 00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:21.280 Just madness, just like how much data is out there, 1034 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.719 and so it's just like sifting through all that trying 1035 00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:26.920 to find the needle in the haystack. 1036 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:30.039 That was. It was a process. 1037 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:35.079 How many years did it take to complete the study? 1038 00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:38.320 So I was on the study from twenty thirteen to 1039 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:39.320 twenty eighteen. 1040 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:44.519 And we were and I'm being a. 1041 00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.159 Little evasive here because it depends how you ask, it's 1042 00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:52.480 five years till it actually got published. We were forced 1043 00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:55.599 to change our publisher from the Center Military History, which 1044 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:59.360 does the official history, to the Tregetic Studies Institute at 1045 00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:02.400 the War College to Carlisle because that was an academic 1046 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:07.360 institution and we could be more controversial there. Interesting what 1047 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:12.119 had happened was Gen Odierno had retired and his guidance 1048 00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.199 was like, look, if you have to kill sacred cows, 1049 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:16.239 kill sacred cows. 1050 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.559 I don't care whose feelings get hurt. 1051 00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:22.079 We lost people. We made the same mistakes of the 1052 00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:26.719 Vietnam War. And you know, part of the reason we 1053 00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.920 made those same mistakes is we never really tried to 1054 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.679 learn from it. You know, we never really wrote or 1055 00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:35.559 never finished writing the history of the Vietnam War with 1056 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.760 the Army, and so we didn't have any institutional learning 1057 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:39.599 on it. 1058 00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:41.480 And so he's like, I want. 1059 00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:45.400 You to do it, and you hurt people's feelings, that's 1060 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.079 totally okay. 1061 00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:48.280 And so. 1062 00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:52.480 One of the reasons why I was shifted was that 1063 00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:59.559 commander's guidance, and you know, just delayed on forever because 1064 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:03.199 Channel Milly was appointed the Chief staff of the Army. 1065 00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:07.239 He the chief of public Affairs for the Army, and 1066 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.039 then Secretary to Esper, who's the Secretary of the Army, 1067 00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:17.880 all opposed publication because through three grounds one controversial, which. 1068 00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:19.960 You know, a lot of. 1069 00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:24.400 Army publications are as boring as a refrigerator repair manual. 1070 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:28.199 You know, they're just like, there's no controversy because they 1071 00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:29.280 don't want to hurt anyone's feeling. 1072 00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:31.920 It's like the same argument that was made against publishing 1073 00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:32.880 the Pentagon papers. 1074 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:39.440 That's exactly right. And so we we tried to do 1075 00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:42.760 our best to explain why we thought things went wrong, 1076 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:47.719 who made decisions, what their logic was behind those decisions, 1077 00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:52.119 and then you know, kind of let the cars fall 1078 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:55.960 where they may. And so it was controversial, there's no question, 1079 00:59:56.760 --> 01:00:03.760 and you know, like a couple examples. 1080 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:06.039 I'm just gonna be a blunt here. 1081 01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:08.920 One of the things that General Odierno told us was 1082 01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.159 he's like, look, we need to have a honest conversation 1083 01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:16.280 about what the Garden reserves brings to the fight. And 1084 01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:18.519 I mean, you know, the Army, there's this big talk 1085 01:00:18.639 --> 01:00:21.320 of the total force and everyone being equal. 1086 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.519 And it's bullshit, right. 1087 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:25.920 I mean, someone who trains forty or fifty days a 1088 01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:28.440 year just is not going to be the same as 1089 01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:30.239 someone who does it year round. 1090 01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:32.639 With the budgets that the active force. 1091 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.800 Has granted, the reserving guard are going to bring other 1092 01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:39.480 skill sets to the fight that are good and valuable, 1093 01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:43.760 but in terms of fighting, they're not equal. 1094 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.159 And you know, so. 1095 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:53.639 The Guard went crazy, like and there were people who 1096 01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:59.320 literally tried to One individual wrote to the Vice Chief 1097 01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:03.960 of Staff of the arm me making accusations about that 1098 01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.679 we used too much oral history interviews rather than archival, 1099 01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:11.960 which is not accurate, and you know, other accusations about 1100 01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:15.039 how controversial it was to try to get them to 1101 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:16.000 kill the project. 1102 01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:19.639 And so you know that was like the controversial is 1103 01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:20.440 who's one of it? 1104 01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:24.280 A second component of it was this weird notion where 1105 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.320 you know, in the army, at the general officer level, 1106 01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:30.760 there's this sense that we're supposed to be a pul right, 1107 01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:36.440 and that you know, you're not supposed to I'll take 1108 01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:40.719 a little yeah, I'll have a nice please, yeah, thank you. 1109 01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:49.920 And you know, there was this sense, that weird sense 1110 01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:53.000 where that we in the military were not theoretically supposed 1111 01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:55.639 to add any sort of political advice for political guidance, 1112 01:01:55.719 --> 01:01:57.679 right to to stay out. 1113 01:01:57.519 --> 01:01:59.880 Of it, Demitri, you just want to grab the check 1114 01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:00.800 trey out of the. 1115 01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:05.519 Sorry, go ahead, It's all good. 1116 01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:10.639 But so there was this sense where they believe that 1117 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:13.199 we should that the senior general shouldn't have been like 1118 01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:17.320 having a back and forth with the president or the 1119 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:21.440 secular defense on how the war should be conducted. Like 1120 01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.079 they thought that it was like, okay, they give us 1121 01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:26.719 guidance and then we translate that guidance and make it happen. 1122 01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:29.239 And these are generals who are like giving us this 1123 01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:32.480 like premise and it's like, no, that's not how it happened. 1124 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:35.239 There was like a back and forth, you know, like 1125 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.440 the senior commander would be like, you know, no, boss, 1126 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:39.920 I don't think that's a good idea. 1127 01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:41.440 I think maybe we should try this. 1128 01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:45.760 Instead, or you know, And so there was this weird 1129 01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:49.519 just a pushback that that came from like senior officers 1130 01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:54.199 giving their best military advice was they were allergic to it. 1131 01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:55.920 They were like, oh, like, we don't want to talk. 1132 01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:58.079 To you, do you. I'm out of curiosity. 1133 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.880 To me, I would take that as that as that 1134 01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:07.039 they want the failure of Iraq and Afghanistan, but they 1135 01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:10.880 want the failure of those wars to rest solely on 1136 01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:13.760 the president, like, hey, we were just following orders. They 1137 01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:16.599 want to pretend that they had no say in how 1138 01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:17.239 things went. 1139 01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:22.239 So you know, to me as a historian, it's it's 1140 01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:23.280 harder for me to speculate. 1141 01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:27.880 Sure, I'll speculate all day. Yeah, yeah, totally fair. 1142 01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:29.679 And it's totally fair to do that. 1143 01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:31.440 And there's a there's a public notion. 1144 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:34.559 I think all we've all espoused this at some point, 1145 01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.800 like you know, it's not the military's fault, it's the politicians. 1146 01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:40.960 But it's like, well, the military lost the war. We 1147 01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:42.719 have some responsibility. 1148 01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:47.559 We absolutely share in the responsibility, and I think really 1149 01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:52.000 in and Afghanistan, in many ways, we set the conditions 1150 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:55.280 for losing it, particularly early on when Bush was so 1151 01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:59.639 hands off. I mean Bush doesn't really grab the throttle 1152 01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:03.239 again until six o seven. Yeah, when he's like, holy smokes, 1153 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:04.800 this is a dumpster fire. 1154 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:07.480 Like you military people, get out of the way. 1155 01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:09.920 Like I'm going to tell you, you're gonna search, You're 1156 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.159 gonna send more people because and that came out about 1157 01:04:13.199 --> 01:04:16.639 as academics and other strategists for coming and seeing him 1158 01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.559 and providing other options, you know, and he's like, these 1159 01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:23.440 military people are given me totally opposite, like they still 1160 01:04:23.480 --> 01:04:24.920 want to transition and leave. 1161 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.239 I I honestly though, whether it was Bush or Obama 1162 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:33.760 or even Trump in the latter part, I think that 1163 01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:36.559 I believe they were all light too. I believe that 1164 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:41.199 none of them ever had a true situational awareness that 1165 01:04:41.239 --> 01:04:44.639 they were always they were always given like the good news. 1166 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:48.199 You know, it's you know, it's like a twenty year war, 1167 01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:51.440 one year at a time, that next year will. 1168 01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:53.280 Be the year we'll turn in a corner. Yeah that 1169 01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:56.519 yeah story, Yeah, that's the turning in a corner. 1170 01:04:56.559 --> 01:05:00.000 There certainly was a lot of that of a very 1171 01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:03.880 bad assessments of kind of where the enemy situation was, 1172 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:07.440 and in particular where the host nation forces were, where 1173 01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:10.760 their capabilities were, and a lot of that, frankly, was 1174 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.280 from the military side, and that it was self induced 1175 01:05:13.639 --> 01:05:16.239 because all the metrics we tried to pick that we 1176 01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:21.880 thought were effective were useless. Right, you know, we're trying 1177 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:24.719 to say, oh, well, you know, are these infangy battalions 1178 01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:25.360 fully manned? 1179 01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:27.280 Do they have all their equipment? 1180 01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:33.119 That means nothing, right, we were drinking the stats too, though, Yeah, yes, absolutely, 1181 01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:37.159 And the whole notion of you know, they weren't putting 1182 01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:38.679 the premise. 1183 01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:42.480 Of ghost soldiers or of you know, people not showing 1184 01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:44.840 up for duty, or the corruption that's going on right there. 1185 01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:46.760 None of that I don't think was. 1186 01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:51.079 At least we did not find any record of that 1187 01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:54.960 really making its way back on the Uttox side, I 1188 01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:59.599 will say. At the very end, though, there was a 1189 01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:04.400 friction in the Obama presidency where the military leaders were 1190 01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:08.599 actually saying like, wait a minute, the Iraqi army is 1191 01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:13.079 not ready really yes, positivity at the very end, and 1192 01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:16.400 we need not X number of soldiers to stay in Iraq, 1193 01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:22.039 we need why. And you know, the one of the 1194 01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:24.960 very interesting things about the very end of it was that, 1195 01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:32.320 particularly during that period, the military I think was presenting 1196 01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:36.400 a pretty accurate picture because they're reporting back of the corruption, 1197 01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:41.800 of the problems with the political system. When Malachi for 1198 01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:48.480 the twenty ten election, when he basically circumvented the democratic 1199 01:06:48.519 --> 01:06:55.000 process in Iraq, and the theater commander wrote back and 1200 01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:58.199 like it's in the records where basically said, yeah, Melanche 1201 01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:02.079 is running conducting a running who like quote end quote, 1202 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:06.159 and that yeah, the lowie who won the election, who 1203 01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:10.320 should be allowed to form a government first, is being 1204 01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:15.159 pushed into the corner and blocked from doing that, and 1205 01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:23.159 his supporters are being threatened, killed or hopped up charges 1206 01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:26.199 of oh they're a Baptist at one point, so they 1207 01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:30.639 can't be part of the system that prevented them from, 1208 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:35.280 you know, despite that they won forming a government. 1209 01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:40.199 Now, would you say at the very. 1210 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:44.800 End, like twenty ten, like before the som. 1211 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.480 Are right before we withdrew. 1212 01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:49.800 Yeah, so we went to twenty fourteen, but the twenty 1213 01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:53.280 eleven to twenty fourteen period was like a chapter out 1214 01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:57.719 of like you know, like thirty or something. The end, 1215 01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:00.719 our primary end is twenty eleven of it, because we've 1216 01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:03.639 o three to eleven was are that's where a heavy 1217 01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:03.960 lifting on. 1218 01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:09.559 So I guess what I'm curious about, and I don't 1219 01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:12.960 want you to speculate if you don't know. Do you 1220 01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:16.800 think do you feel as though the reporting got honest 1221 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:20.000 because they knew it was the end and they wanted 1222 01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:22.039 to say this shouldn't be the end? I like, I 1223 01:08:22.039 --> 01:08:29.079 don't want this on my record as whatever, or or 1224 01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:36.079 were they reporting in good faith regardless of whether it 1225 01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:36.439 was the end? 1226 01:08:38.279 --> 01:08:39.319 Yeah, I think I know what you're saying. 1227 01:08:39.319 --> 01:08:43.399 I think some of it is the individuals involved, right, 1228 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:45.920 There are different individuals just a higher. 1229 01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:48.840 Level of like integrity or whatever whatever. I think part 1230 01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:49.680 of that is the case. 1231 01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:52.239 Yeah, I think part of it is what you say. 1232 01:08:52.319 --> 01:08:55.920 I mean to me, I'm always multi causality. Sure, none 1233 01:08:55.920 --> 01:09:00.720 of us function by a single like right determinant. 1234 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:02.079 Right. There's a sort of things. 1235 01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:05.760 Right, and there's all sorts of calculus going on in 1236 01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:08.439 our brains that they're driving us to make a decision 1237 01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:10.000 one way or the other, right, And so I think 1238 01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:13.279 kind of both of those factors are really playing playing out. 1239 01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:15.119 Is is you have. 1240 01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:20.600 Individuals with more integrity at that they're involved in the process. 1241 01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:24.000 You have a sense of perhaps you know, like, hey, 1242 01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:28.000 I don't want to be left with the the albatross. Well, 1243 01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:31.399 I was gonna say burning bag of ship. Yeah, can 1244 01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:34.520 I say that you can't? Okay, you know, don't want 1245 01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:37.560 to be left with the albatross? Or you know that 1246 01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:41.439 they actually did realize like, hey, like this is going 1247 01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:47.359 to be a disaster and very interesting the actual final withdrawal, though, 1248 01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:52.039 like the go to zero decision under Obama, there are 1249 01:09:52.039 --> 01:09:57.079 only three individuals who actually supported the go to zero 1250 01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:01.760 and that was Vice President Biden and then the National 1251 01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:06.159 Security Advisor. Everyone else was unified that we should not 1252 01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:09.239 leave and that we should leave. Between five to eight thousand, 1253 01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:16.960 the Sentcom commander, the chairman, adjoint chiefs, the sector, the 1254 01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:21.119 CIA director, and the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton all 1255 01:10:21.159 --> 01:10:25.039 said we shouldn't leave, with Clinton actually making one of 1256 01:10:25.039 --> 01:10:28.199 the most powerful arguments, basically saying something to the extent 1257 01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:32.880 of like, you know, we've been in Germany and Korea 1258 01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:39.279 for you know, sixty seventy years, right, you know, we 1259 01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:46.199 lost five six thousand Americans in this fight, and hundreds 1260 01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:49.039 of thousands of our rockiser died. Are we really just 1261 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:55.039 going to leave? And yet we just left with kind 1262 01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:58.399 of unshocking results years later, you know. 1263 01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:01.279 And then tell us about the drama around the publication 1264 01:11:01.359 --> 01:11:01.600 of this. 1265 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.239 There was a third one, right, because yah. 1266 01:11:04.279 --> 01:11:06.720 So the third the third element of why it was 1267 01:11:07.119 --> 01:11:10.720 blocked from from publishing was the And it was interesting. 1268 01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:15.159 I mean, you know, being you know, once you get 1269 01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.279 to a certain point in the army, you spent enough 1270 01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:20.920 time around people, you have friends everywhere, right, And so 1271 01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.560 I had friends in the Vice chief's office, in the 1272 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:25.279 chief's office who had filter me back. 1273 01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:29.119 You know, it's like run of my own network, right, 1274 01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:31.880 and so like I think, you know, on a burner 1275 01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:32.800 phone like. 1276 01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:34.720 That is when it went down in the meeting, like 1277 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:38.640 you won't believe this. And so one of it was 1278 01:11:38.800 --> 01:11:43.800 that they basically were like, Okay, we want to forget 1279 01:11:43.840 --> 01:11:48.880 about coin and insurgency. We are pivoting to at that point, 1280 01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:51.880 I think it was called decisive Action, but basically large 1281 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:53.079 scale combat operation. 1282 01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:54.359 Let's go. Let's go. 1283 01:11:55.359 --> 01:12:00.960 We're pivoting to exactly what Vietnam, exactly what happened. 1284 01:12:01.079 --> 01:12:03.399 I don't want to hear about that coin shit no more. 1285 01:12:03.439 --> 01:12:07.319 Exactly and literally that you know, they're like I was 1286 01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:08.560 getting reacs for they like. 1287 01:12:08.479 --> 01:12:10.159 They said, this is what they said. 1288 01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:15.960 They said that this doesn't match with our public affairs messaging, 1289 01:12:16.279 --> 01:12:18.279 our messaging on the hill, and. 1290 01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:19.520 Our budget priorities. 1291 01:12:19.800 --> 01:12:21.880 So we don't want it's distracting, we don't want it 1292 01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:22.600 to be published. 1293 01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:25.920 Wow. Yeah, And so how did it finally come out? 1294 01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:28.119 So it finally came out in that we were we 1295 01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:33.640 were fortunate you know, usually your GS civilian GS employees or. 1296 01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:37.199 Not well respected. 1297 01:12:37.279 --> 01:12:40.760 Right, Yeah, there's this is you know, uh stereotype right 1298 01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:46.600 of your GS employee that never does anything. Well, there 1299 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.680 was a just fifteen who after we had been shifted 1300 01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:53.479 from the Center Military History to the Strating Studies Institute 1301 01:12:53.520 --> 01:12:59.119 at Carlisle, who he made a decision, you know, effectively, 1302 01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:03.439 you know, laterally to provide a draft copy to Michael Gordon, 1303 01:13:03.600 --> 01:13:05.840 who is the senior defense correspondent for the Wall Street Drip. 1304 01:13:07.199 --> 01:13:09.439 And he did it on the premise that and. 1305 01:13:09.399 --> 01:13:11.199 I mean this is just like this is the Army 1306 01:13:11.239 --> 01:13:16.640 in a nutshell, right, because it's like just public. 1307 01:13:16.319 --> 01:13:19.279 Affairs, just like negligence. Right. 1308 01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:22.359 He gives it to him on the premise that the 1309 01:13:22.560 --> 01:13:24.640 Army is going to get a good news story out 1310 01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:27.800 of it. Because the Army is a learning institution, We're 1311 01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:31.000 willing to be self critical, We're willing to like name 1312 01:13:31.199 --> 01:13:35.159 names and have controversial stuff published about us. We're willing to, like, 1313 01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:39.760 you know, semi crucify ourselves over the mistakes we've made. Right, 1314 01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:43.199 that's gonna be the good news story. And Gordon gets 1315 01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:46.359 all these scoops because all this stuff that's been declassified, 1316 01:13:46.399 --> 01:13:49.640 you know, we declassified thirty thousand pages of documents, We've 1317 01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:52.159 got all these interviews. He gets to sift throughout all 1318 01:13:52.199 --> 01:13:55.600 of that before anyone else. And so he's got all 1319 01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:59.479 these stories, all these scoops ready to drop, right, like 1320 01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:03.239 the story about bombing the Damascus he reported five the 1321 01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:08.960 idea that never came to fruition, and you know, it's it's. 1322 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:11.319 A bargain, right, you scratch my back, I scratch yours. 1323 01:14:11.399 --> 01:14:12.760 Is kind of the way the world works. 1324 01:14:13.279 --> 01:14:17.279 Well, because the Army isn't willing to publish it. You know, 1325 01:14:18.319 --> 01:14:20.880 Gordon's starting to get pissed. He's got it, and he's 1326 01:14:20.920 --> 01:14:23.479 being forced to sit on it. And it's not like 1327 01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:26.479 you know, the Leaf Chronicle outside Fort Campbell. 1328 01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.399 It's like the Wall Street Journal. And so finally he 1329 01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:30.880 gets so. 1330 01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:35.000 Frustrated that and this is what I was told, and 1331 01:14:35.039 --> 01:14:37.880 I believe this is accurate, that he sits down with 1332 01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:40.479 General Milly, who then is the chief staff of the Army, 1333 01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:44.399 and starts a recording and basically says, General Milly, why 1334 01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:47.159 are you blocking the publication of your own Iraq? 1335 01:14:47.279 --> 01:14:51.800 Wards ambushed him after, I mean, and. 1336 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:58.039 In his defense, he did it only after the Army 1337 01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.439 basically drug him for the. 1338 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:02.680 Fuck off every which way, ye for like a year, 1339 01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:05.079 year and a half. I don't think he needs any difference. 1340 01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:06.840 I mean, he totally did. 1341 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:09.600 I mean, and you know, he'd expended time and effort 1342 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:12.880 to write these stories ready to drop and and you know, 1343 01:15:13.199 --> 01:15:17.520 so the Army had opted in bad faith, and he 1344 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:23.600 called them on it, and immediately, of course, uh, you know, 1345 01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:26.000 he generally goes, oh, you know. 1346 01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:31.119 Sure, I'm publishing it. I'm gonna publish. 1347 01:15:30.319 --> 01:15:32.319 I'm going to write a forward to it, which I'd 1348 01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:34.840 had like emails from other people who had written like 1349 01:15:35.119 --> 01:15:38.119 General only will never write a ford to this. You know, 1350 01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:42.079 they were considering it actually at one point that several 1351 01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:44.439 the options were to put it on Sipper, which is 1352 01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:47.119 one of the things that Odierno has said, we will 1353 01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:49.359 never put this on Sipper because of it goes there, 1354 01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:52.680 it'll be like the Lost Arc of the Covenant at 1355 01:15:52.680 --> 01:15:55.319 the end of Indiana Jones will be hidden this month, 1356 01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:57.239 whereas where nobody'll. 1357 01:15:56.760 --> 01:15:58.359 Ever learn from it show real quick. 1358 01:15:59.439 --> 01:16:04.720 YAP is like the secret Internet of the classified classified 1359 01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:10.039 side of like government or at least the military Internet. 1360 01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:16.199 So basically, once you put it there, it's immediately classified information. 1361 01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:17.600 Then in order to. 1362 01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:19.880 Affoid it, you have to know it exists in order 1363 01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:21.000 to affoid it, so. 1364 01:16:20.960 --> 01:16:23.399 It basically goes to die disappears. 1365 01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:23.880 Yeah. 1366 01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:26.399 Yeah, and this is after we had already gone through 1367 01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:28.560 an office that you know, I didn't even know existed. 1368 01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:32.680 It was called the Defense Officer Publication Security Review. Yes, 1369 01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:37.880 so it had passed the Dopster review, and I mean, man, 1370 01:16:37.880 --> 01:16:39.760 they were so detailed that they actually one of the 1371 01:16:39.760 --> 01:16:44.319 photos that was like on the Centcom website had detainees 1372 01:16:44.359 --> 01:16:46.039 in it, and they actually caught They're like, oh, you 1373 01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:50.319 can't post photos of de dainees. Were like, okay, the 1374 01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:54.119 documents had already been declassified by sent COOM and like, 1375 01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:57.920 you know, they're stamped declassified by Sentcom, So we were clear. 1376 01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:01.000 So this is just like vindictiveness to put it right. 1377 01:17:02.680 --> 01:17:06.119 The other option was they were going to publish it 1378 01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:09.119 as an independent publication in that. 1379 01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:13.399 Like I guess newsletter or something like a high school newsletter. 1380 01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:15.840 Like we published it like you know above our mom's 1381 01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:18.760 garage on weekends right right, like doing it in her 1382 01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:23.439 part time, ither than being commissioned by the Amazon creates completely. 1383 01:17:23.800 --> 01:17:24.800 That was their other option. 1384 01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:29.479 Yeah, and so you know it was only because of 1385 01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:34.520 you know, Michael Gordon basically throwing down the gauntlet. 1386 01:17:34.159 --> 01:17:36.359 And so general Millie of course writes the forward and 1387 01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:37.359 gets up published. 1388 01:17:38.399 --> 01:17:40.600 What my phone blows up that day. 1389 01:17:40.600 --> 01:17:43.720 There's like it's like ten I'm the meeting I think 1390 01:17:43.720 --> 01:17:47.000 with my kids teacher or something. I come out of 1391 01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:50.159 it and there's like ten voicemails, like fifty emails like 1392 01:17:50.199 --> 01:17:50.680 I see. 1393 01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:52.079 When can you publish this? You know? 1394 01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:55.359 Well, yeah, I'm curious. What was the response when it 1395 01:17:55.439 --> 01:17:58.800 was published? I mean, not to use a term that 1396 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:01.479 is loaded for a round, but was a mission accomplished? 1397 01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:03.760 I mean, I mean, but seriously, I mean, did you 1398 01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:05.680 feel like, you know, you guys. 1399 01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:06.880 Did what you set out to do and that I 1400 01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:10.039 had an impact? So, I mean, I don't know, it's 1401 01:18:10.239 --> 01:18:12.079 who knows if it had an impact. 1402 01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:15.000 I mean, I think one of the challenges that I think, 1403 01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:18.359 other than for a lot of the g Y veterans. 1404 01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:21.840 I think the army has like turned the corner, and 1405 01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:23.960 I think they want to forget coin. And I think 1406 01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:26.720 a lot of counterinsurgency or insurgency, and I think a 1407 01:18:26.720 --> 01:18:30.880 lot of the American public wants to forget it. I 1408 01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:35.560 would say at the time it made, it made international 1409 01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:39.319 news and like because it was front page above the 1410 01:18:39.359 --> 01:18:42.640 full Wall Street Journal, like I was on NPR All 1411 01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:47.800 Things Considered, like West Coast, East Coast, CNN, you know, 1412 01:18:48.680 --> 01:18:54.479 like did multiple interviews over it. And the one like 1413 01:18:54.600 --> 01:18:58.319 bumper sticker, which this one was actually when I wrote 1414 01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:03.760 that everyone took out of it was that the only 1415 01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:07.199 winner of it, that Iran was the only winner. 1416 01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:10.359 Of the Iraq War. Yeah, for sure, that was the 1417 01:19:10.359 --> 01:19:11.720 bumper sticker that came out of it. 1418 01:19:11.800 --> 01:19:14.319 And that that was for I mean, you know, as 1419 01:19:14.359 --> 01:19:16.840 long as the new cycle alouts fifteen seconds of fame 1420 01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:20.840 or whatever, that that that that was the bumper sticker 1421 01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:21.319 that a lot of. 1422 01:19:21.319 --> 01:19:24.039 People both when you know, you go on and you 1423 01:19:24.119 --> 01:19:26.880 do these interviews like even here we do art of 1424 01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:29.199 viewers are two to three hours their long form, and 1425 01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:33.359 people get an opportunity to talk about things that normally 1426 01:19:33.399 --> 01:19:36.000 when they go on these other shows, it's like five 1427 01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:42.239 minutes sound and how do you condense a fifteen page report? 1428 01:19:42.600 --> 01:19:46.039 Like what do what do they? What were their burning questions? 1429 01:19:46.079 --> 01:19:51.079 What did they want to know? And depending on the outlet, 1430 01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:56.159 did they did they want they want to focus on 1431 01:19:56.159 --> 01:19:59.600 one part that supported something that they wanted to. 1432 01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:02.560 That became a lot of like, you know, almost the 1433 01:20:02.600 --> 01:20:07.319 self licking ice cream pone where different outlets would anchor 1434 01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:14.039 onto a certain premise or area or you know where 1435 01:20:14.039 --> 01:20:18.239 we lied to about wmd uh, you know, like you 1436 01:20:18.239 --> 01:20:21.119 know what was the you know, like, okay, we're we 1437 01:20:21.159 --> 01:20:24.640 looked at an operational level history, so we were not 1438 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:27.880 looking at the causes of the reasons for the war. 1439 01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:30.960 We in the military don't really get to make those policies. 1440 01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:34.439 We don't get to make those policy decisions. We get 1441 01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:36.439 told we're invading a rock, and then we provide our 1442 01:20:36.439 --> 01:20:39.439 best military advice and then we move on, right, and 1443 01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:42.720 then we start planning if if the civilian authorities say 1444 01:20:42.720 --> 01:20:45.359 that's cute, then we start to you know, put things 1445 01:20:45.399 --> 01:20:45.800 in motion. 1446 01:20:46.720 --> 01:20:49.000 And so it was it was. 1447 01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:51.880 Hard, and to be honest, I mean, I'm very thankful 1448 01:20:51.920 --> 01:20:54.439 that we're doing such a like long form because you 1449 01:20:54.479 --> 01:20:57.680 can really do deep dive into stuff, and it was. 1450 01:20:57.640 --> 01:20:58.960 It was hard to be able to. 1451 01:21:00.680 --> 01:21:04.399 You know, distill all that into such a short interview. 1452 01:21:07.119 --> 01:21:11.039 I was fortunate in that some people did center on 1453 01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:13.520 that bumper sticker and I. 1454 01:21:13.479 --> 01:21:14.960 Could talk about that. 1455 01:21:16.359 --> 01:21:20.640 Others would talk about the withdrawal, you know, like more 1456 01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:24.560 oriented against politically Obama and they had a you know, 1457 01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:28.560 extra grind. Others would focus on the decision to go 1458 01:21:28.600 --> 01:21:33.079 to war, the lack of preparation, the you know, the plant, 1459 01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:36.319 the invasion without a plan or a you know phase 1460 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:39.840 four post conflict plan quote unquote, which you know there's 1461 01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:43.520 lots of asterisks there, you know, again focused on kind 1462 01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:45.079 of astra grind against Bush. 1463 01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:47.359 So you know you. 1464 01:21:48.319 --> 01:21:54.199 Have have you ever read Leonard Wong's paper Lying to Ourselves? 1465 01:21:55.199 --> 01:22:00.239 I think I have, but I I I don't. You know, recall. 1466 01:22:01.680 --> 01:22:03.680 If I were to have a hot take about all this, 1467 01:22:03.840 --> 01:22:05.840 like that would kind of be mine about Iraq that 1468 01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:09.960 we g lied to ourselves and we institutionalized the line, right, 1469 01:22:10.039 --> 01:22:12.960 it became institutionalized that and accepted that you can send 1470 01:22:12.960 --> 01:22:16.399 false reports up to hire about the readiness of these 1471 01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:17.239 units and so on. 1472 01:22:17.359 --> 01:22:19.880 Well, and I mean not just rough, but Afghanistan too, 1473 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:23.680 And so you know, I'm curious because when did the 1474 01:22:23.960 --> 01:22:26.000 report finally get published and when did you start doing 1475 01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:33.560 the interviews? Twenty eighteen, so we were still in Afghanistan 1476 01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:39.359 and were people asking you based on what you learned 1477 01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:40.760 from Iraq. 1478 01:22:41.159 --> 01:22:43.119 Like applied to Afghanistan? 1479 01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:44.720 Yeah? How is it applied to Afghanistan? 1480 01:22:44.920 --> 01:22:46.199 Very few would even take that. 1481 01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:51.079 I mean I recall a couple questions along that line, 1482 01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:55.560 but most, you know, just exclusively focused on on. 1483 01:22:56.199 --> 01:23:00.720 And did anybody ever ask you how smart. 1484 01:23:00.439 --> 01:23:06.439 It was to attempt to overthrow Assad after what we 1485 01:23:06.680 --> 01:23:08.439 learned about Saddam? 1486 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:11.479 I don't think. I don't think Asad came up. 1487 01:23:12.720 --> 01:23:15.000 I don't remember the time frame, but you know, I 1488 01:23:15.000 --> 01:23:17.560 mean this is I mean, you know how things go 1489 01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:22.359 in our I mean it's like, yeah, the weeks and 1490 01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:23.640 then it's gone. 1491 01:23:23.960 --> 01:23:26.840 I mean like this is just nothing. It like falls 1492 01:23:26.840 --> 01:23:27.399 off the cliff. 1493 01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:30.279 All of this leads us into your book, Training for 1494 01:23:30.399 --> 01:23:32.239 Victory that I want to make sure we have plenty 1495 01:23:32.239 --> 01:23:35.680 of time to talk about here. Tell us first, to 1496 01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:38.319 kick it off, I mean, how did this book come about? 1497 01:23:38.359 --> 01:23:44.880 Was this your dissertation or yeah, yeah, so is my 1498 01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:48.960 dissertation and then to me, you know, it was kind 1499 01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:53.159 of came ou about because of the mystery and in 1500 01:23:53.600 --> 01:23:54.119 at all. 1501 01:23:55.680 --> 01:23:57.880 The whole the general effort. 1502 01:23:57.680 --> 01:24:00.279 To build the Iraqi Army is a train wreck. It's 1503 01:24:00.279 --> 01:24:03.920 a dumpster fire, it's you know, Churchillian, it's an epic 1504 01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:09.720 military disaster, except for the ice Off, the ICTF and 1505 01:24:09.760 --> 01:24:14.319 the commandos, and some describe the ice off is the 1506 01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:15.520 best thing we built in a rock. 1507 01:24:16.159 --> 01:24:18.399 And in fact, in twenty fourteen we kind of see 1508 01:24:18.439 --> 01:24:19.000 it play out. 1509 01:24:19.399 --> 01:24:24.439 We see the ice off fighting against that is isis 1510 01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:27.159 kind of every step of the way. Right they're at 1511 01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:31.920 the critical oil refinery at Beiji. They actually get surrounded 1512 01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:34.720 and they fight for a week, which. 1513 01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:36.840 You know, I mean, yeah, there's an epic battle over there. 1514 01:24:36.920 --> 01:24:40.199 Yeah, it's an epic battle, and it's it's a you know, 1515 01:24:40.279 --> 01:24:44.479 the the conventional wisdom, the conventional narrative, and much of 1516 01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:46.640 this story, which is true, is that the Iraqi Army 1517 01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:51.840 dissolves large almost. I mean, they're they're pockets, but the 1518 01:24:51.920 --> 01:24:56.920 ice off they're fighting and like fighting hard at you know, Beiji. 1519 01:24:57.000 --> 01:25:00.000 They get an opportunity to surrender. The ISIS says, hey, 1520 01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:03.520 look we'll let you you know, you can even keep 1521 01:25:03.520 --> 01:25:04.159 your weapons. 1522 01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:05.039 We'll let you go. 1523 01:25:05.479 --> 01:25:09.199 You know, you won't get slaughtered. You can fight another day. 1524 01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:10.920 We just want the crossroads to be able to move 1525 01:25:10.920 --> 01:25:14.359 on and what you live. And they all to pound 1526 01:25:14.439 --> 01:25:18.640 sand and kept fighting. And then on the way back, 1527 01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:22.560 you know, on the once things shifted and the counter offensive. 1528 01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:26.760 They're the head of almost every battle. Mostly they take 1529 01:25:26.800 --> 01:25:30.960 forty percent casualties and then keep fighting. And so to me, 1530 01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:35.359 it was like, what gives, right, what made this unit 1531 01:25:35.560 --> 01:25:41.760 different while all the rest of the rocky army mostly collapses? 1532 01:25:42.920 --> 01:25:44.800 And now it is like the riddle that I wanted 1533 01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:48.039 to solve. And you know, we see pockets of other 1534 01:25:48.079 --> 01:25:53.680 successful units too, and you know, the commandos are definitely 1535 01:25:53.720 --> 01:26:02.039 more successful than other General Afghan Army. And we see 1536 01:26:02.079 --> 01:26:05.119 other pockets as successful of the units built, whether it 1537 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:08.800 be in Colombia or El Salvador or the Philippines. 1538 01:26:09.840 --> 01:26:10.479 And I wanted to. 1539 01:26:10.479 --> 01:26:12.800 Look at, you know, what, what was it what made 1540 01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:17.920 those units successful while the rest of the efforts really 1541 01:26:17.960 --> 01:26:18.199 were not. 1542 01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:21.800 So let's start with your first case study. 1543 01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:25.119 Then El Salvador nineteen eighty one and nineteen ninety one. 1544 01:26:26.439 --> 01:26:29.720 This was really interesting. I mean there's a few things. 1545 01:26:29.760 --> 01:26:32.279 Obviously you'll key on them much better than I will. 1546 01:26:33.199 --> 01:26:34.880 But there are some unique aspects of it. 1547 01:26:34.960 --> 01:26:37.640 Communist insurgency in the context of the Cold War in 1548 01:26:37.680 --> 01:26:40.880 Central America, and Congress had a cap on how many 1549 01:26:40.960 --> 01:26:43.239 advisors were even allowed in country. It was like fifty 1550 01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:48.159 five fifty five, So a very light footprint, to say 1551 01:26:48.159 --> 01:26:51.520 the least. Not nothing comparable to Iraq or Afghanistan at all. 1552 01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:55.520 Yeah, what went right in El Salvador? What went right? 1553 01:26:55.640 --> 01:26:58.960 What went wrong? What were kind of your observations from that? 1554 01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:01.600 Yeah, So I think one of the big things that 1555 01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:05.000 went right in Al Salvador, that that is a theme 1556 01:27:05.119 --> 01:27:07.680 kind of across all five of the case studies, is 1557 01:27:07.840 --> 01:27:11.520 that in many cases you have the same advisors returning 1558 01:27:11.640 --> 01:27:14.399 rotation after rotation after rotation. 1559 01:27:15.239 --> 01:27:17.079 And it happened for a couple reasons. 1560 01:27:17.239 --> 01:27:19.960 And I mean, I was so fortunate to have like 1561 01:27:20.199 --> 01:27:23.239 just a bunch of s f legends from that time 1562 01:27:23.319 --> 01:27:27.079 period like talk to me like time and time again, 1563 01:27:27.439 --> 01:27:31.000 like tell me their stories and then give me documents 1564 01:27:31.039 --> 01:27:34.520 sometimes or give me, you know, diaries. 1565 01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:35.800 And stuff that I could still go through. 1566 01:27:37.840 --> 01:27:43.199 And you know, it happened because one, as one said, 1567 01:27:43.479 --> 01:27:46.039 it was the only war they had, you know, the 1568 01:27:46.039 --> 01:27:49.319 Cold War, you know, Vietnam had ended. 1569 01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:51.399 Those three seven three seven guys. 1570 01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:54.239 That's that was another component. 1571 01:27:55.359 --> 01:27:58.720 So the I mean, they're crazy stories of individuals who 1572 01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:05.479 literally because then Spanish was a hard requirement for NCOs 1573 01:28:05.520 --> 01:28:06.960 you had to be a two to two on the 1574 01:28:07.119 --> 01:28:09.680 language proficiency test, and for officers you had to be 1575 01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:12.439 a one to one. And if you didn't have that, 1576 01:28:12.720 --> 01:28:15.920 like you didn't pass go, like you didn't get on 1577 01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:17.039 the bus, they didn't. 1578 01:28:16.800 --> 01:28:17.399 Bring it down. 1579 01:28:17.840 --> 01:28:20.119 And so there are people wanted to go to this 1580 01:28:20.239 --> 01:28:23.439 mission so badly that they're literally in their spare time 1581 01:28:23.479 --> 01:28:27.680 teaching themselves Spanish, yeah, like and studying Spanish because they 1582 01:28:27.800 --> 01:28:31.840 know that that the Vietnam War you know ended you know, 1583 01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:36.119 like almost a decade before, and this is their chance 1584 01:28:36.720 --> 01:28:41.359 and their chance to lead indigenous forces in some ways 1585 01:28:41.640 --> 01:28:46.800 in combat because there are multiple occasions of units getting 1586 01:28:46.840 --> 01:28:52.680 overrun of you know, battles occurring, or helicopters, advisors getting 1587 01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:55.560 shot down on helicopters even though they're supposed to not 1588 01:28:55.600 --> 01:28:56.359 be in combat. 1589 01:28:56.439 --> 01:28:59.399 But I mean, you know, it's it's insurgency. There's no 1590 01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:00.800 front line. 1591 01:29:01.159 --> 01:29:06.439 It's funny when you think about you know, prior to 1592 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:10.399 the GAT, you know, after Vietnam when any combat action 1593 01:29:11.119 --> 01:29:14.000 was you know, you have Somalia, like Panama, like you 1594 01:29:14.000 --> 01:29:17.640 have these very short So the idea that guys go 1595 01:29:17.720 --> 01:29:21.680 through these hard ass selections and training processes and then 1596 01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:24.279 the chance to get in war in war, it's like 1597 01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:26.960 learning All I have to do is learn Spanish to 1598 01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:27.399 go to war. 1599 01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:30.880 That's I'm down for it. I'm down, I'm down. 1600 01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:33.680 I thought one of the interesting observations you had in 1601 01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:37.560 the book was about the difference between some of our 1602 01:29:37.920 --> 01:29:41.920 Latino American Special Forces members as opposed to some of 1603 01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:44.439 these like redneck dudes from Alabama, and that there were 1604 01:29:44.479 --> 01:29:47.920 actually some circumstances where the El Salvadorans, one of the 1605 01:29:47.960 --> 01:29:51.399 rednecks who speak with a redneck accent in Spanish because 1606 01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:54.359 they don't have like cultural assumptions about them. 1607 01:29:54.720 --> 01:29:58.159 Yeah, and you know, in some ways, one of the 1608 01:29:58.159 --> 01:30:01.680 things that surprised me was I kind assumed that language 1609 01:30:01.800 --> 01:30:04.239 was going to be a really important factor across all 1610 01:30:04.319 --> 01:30:08.880 the case studies, and granted, for Al Salvador and Colombia, 1611 01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:12.760 speaking Spanish was kind of a prerequisite and it was important. 1612 01:30:13.199 --> 01:30:15.239 But even in those case studies, you know, as you 1613 01:30:15.279 --> 01:30:19.079 point out, what was almost more important was that the 1614 01:30:19.159 --> 01:30:22.479 advisors had the right mindset to be a good advisor, 1615 01:30:23.039 --> 01:30:27.760 that they were patient, that they had you know, teaching skills. 1616 01:30:28.159 --> 01:30:31.000 Some people just can't teach right, they're just not cut 1617 01:30:31.000 --> 01:30:32.039 out to be an advisor. 1618 01:30:32.600 --> 01:30:36.720 And and these individuals they could build and maintain rapport. 1619 01:30:37.039 --> 01:30:39.800 And it was like those you know that West Virginia. 1620 01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:41.880 That guy was speaking you know, Spanish with the best 1621 01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:43.560 West Virginia, the southern accent. 1622 01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:47.600 You know that just is talks and can make friends 1623 01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:48.239 with anyone. 1624 01:30:48.920 --> 01:30:52.920 That some of the Al Salvador and officers just you 1625 01:30:52.960 --> 01:30:56.479 know stock too, like glue, because he built and maintained 1626 01:30:56.560 --> 01:31:00.399 rapport consistently, and in some cases that way what was 1627 01:31:00.439 --> 01:31:02.399 more important even in the language. 1628 01:31:03.439 --> 01:31:10.000 Another thing I've found is that like courage, like just 1629 01:31:10.079 --> 01:31:15.720 straight up courage that if they see you throwing yourself 1630 01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:21.520 out there for them, even though whether a person is 1631 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:24.439 doing it for them or just because they just are 1632 01:31:24.479 --> 01:31:26.119 in the in the heat, you know, in the throat 1633 01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:29.960 of the fight, that that means everything to them. 1634 01:31:31.159 --> 01:31:34.680 Yeah, that's another huge component. And in all Salva or 1635 01:31:34.680 --> 01:31:40.079 other proved particularly valuable because you know, there are occasions 1636 01:31:40.239 --> 01:31:45.840 in cases where multiple times where an Al salvad On 1637 01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:50.960 officer either crumbled or collapsed and couldn't like, you know, 1638 01:31:51.640 --> 01:31:55.840 people collapse in the fight. Some people do, and they'll 1639 01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:58.880 salve an officer turns an American and says, hey, you 1640 01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:01.840 take his place, And when the American goes there and 1641 01:32:01.920 --> 01:32:07.359 does that, man, that guy is golden, Like there's anything 1642 01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:10.319 he says after that point, and after that battle he's 1643 01:32:10.359 --> 01:32:11.039 getting listened to. 1644 01:32:11.239 --> 01:32:13.960 Yeah, and leading from the front becomes it's a whole 1645 01:32:14.039 --> 01:32:17.000 new world in another culture when they see in America 1646 01:32:17.359 --> 01:32:21.239 a you know, somebody who could sit back and tell 1647 01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:24.479 people what to do or advise the way they're told to. 1648 01:32:25.439 --> 01:32:29.880 But when they lead from the front, like those indigenous 1649 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:32.039 indigenous forces glom onto that. 1650 01:32:33.399 --> 01:32:38.239 So when you looked at it, El Salvador, do you 1651 01:32:38.279 --> 01:32:41.640 give our partner force relationships over there a passing grade? 1652 01:32:41.720 --> 01:32:43.439 I mean, how do you think that turned out? 1653 01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:46.680 So I think what's important El Salvador to kind of 1654 01:32:46.720 --> 01:32:52.640 look at is that is the US strategically at the 1655 01:32:52.640 --> 01:32:56.840 beginning of the war there they studied like, okay, what's 1656 01:32:56.880 --> 01:33:00.319 the situation? And the situation was really bad. It was 1657 01:33:00.319 --> 01:33:03.079 a ship show and it looked like the government was 1658 01:33:03.079 --> 01:33:07.520 going to fold. So US military comes up with three options, 1659 01:33:07.640 --> 01:33:11.359 like a win option, an offensive option, and then like 1660 01:33:11.920 --> 01:33:16.079 the lowest cost scenario of like hold the line, but 1661 01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:20.159 we prevent them from from losing. That was the option 1662 01:33:20.279 --> 01:33:22.520 that the Reagan administration shows was option. 1663 01:33:22.439 --> 01:33:26.199 Three, the least cost, you know. 1664 01:33:26.479 --> 01:33:32.039 And so the force we built, we built a force 1665 01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:40.319 to that specification. The the berries the battalions battalionis infantiria. 1666 01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:45.760 The reaction in media demente where there like immediate reaction 1667 01:33:45.880 --> 01:33:49.560 infantry battalions were they were okay. 1668 01:33:50.199 --> 01:33:52.920 And I think one of the best ways to describe it. 1669 01:33:52.760 --> 01:33:56.439 Is is there was like a discussion between two two 1670 01:33:56.479 --> 01:33:59.960 American advisors, one who'd been a Vietnam veteran and one 1671 01:34:00.039 --> 01:34:03.439 who wasn't, and the Vietnam veteran basically said. 1672 01:34:03.319 --> 01:34:06.439 Man, these L. Salvadoran guys, like if they had to 1673 01:34:06.479 --> 01:34:09.600 fight the viet Cong, they would be massacred. We lose 1674 01:34:09.600 --> 01:34:10.079 in a day. 1675 01:34:10.800 --> 01:34:12.680 But then the other guy, I looked at him and goes, look, 1676 01:34:13.079 --> 01:34:14.560 they don't have to fight the viet Cong. 1677 01:34:14.960 --> 01:34:17.079 They're not fighting the viet Cong. They're fighting other L. 1678 01:34:17.119 --> 01:34:17.920 Salad Orans. 1679 01:34:18.319 --> 01:34:22.039 And that's that's the only level that we have to 1680 01:34:22.079 --> 01:34:22.960 get them right. 1681 01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:24.880 Train them to do that one thing you want them 1682 01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:26.439 to train them do to that level. 1683 01:34:26.439 --> 01:34:29.880 And they successfully got them to that level, and they survived. 1684 01:34:30.359 --> 01:34:33.600 And at the end of the conflict, the one of 1685 01:34:33.640 --> 01:34:38.319 the fml EN leaders during the peace Box the Chibultepec Accords, 1686 01:34:39.520 --> 01:34:43.039 he walked over to the head of the US mill group, 1687 01:34:43.079 --> 01:34:45.960 the advisor group, kind of poked him in the chest 1688 01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:48.880 and said, you know what, if not for your advisors, 1689 01:34:49.119 --> 01:34:50.199 we would have won this war. 1690 01:34:52.680 --> 01:34:55.279 The second case study in your book, the Light Reaction 1691 01:34:55.399 --> 01:34:57.600 Regiment in the Philippines, the LRR. 1692 01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:02.760 So now totally different context, just after nine to eleven. 1693 01:35:04.319 --> 01:35:08.960 We obviously have a long relationship with the Philippines. The complicated, 1694 01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:13.800 too complicated, a little colonial a little bit. You go 1695 01:35:13.840 --> 01:35:16.600 to their museums, they have like paintings of them shooting 1696 01:35:16.640 --> 01:35:19.520 cannons at us and stuff. It's okay, we get it. 1697 01:35:21.760 --> 01:35:25.159 The motto for the Light Reaction Regiment, the Shooters of Death, 1698 01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:29.359 actually came from the unit that killed the senior American 1699 01:35:29.560 --> 01:35:31.560 during the American War. 1700 01:35:31.640 --> 01:35:34.720 Yes, there's a little weird, like you said, exactly. 1701 01:35:35.439 --> 01:35:37.600 I mean, some people don't realize we developed the forty 1702 01:35:37.600 --> 01:35:40.720 five caliber round for the Filipinos because they were so 1703 01:35:40.840 --> 01:35:45.279 crazy and combat So post nine to eleven, right after 1704 01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:48.399 nine to eleven, we have this relationship with the Philippines. 1705 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:51.920 There's an Islamic insurgency in the south, there is a 1706 01:35:51.960 --> 01:35:57.159 communist insurgency in the north, and then we have missionaries 1707 01:35:57.199 --> 01:35:59.800 being held hostis that feels like it was the bigger 1708 01:36:00.119 --> 01:36:01.319 it is bybe. 1709 01:36:01.439 --> 01:36:05.640 That was, So it actually starts before Sevenmber eleventh a 1710 01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:13.319 little bit in that the you know, the US, there 1711 01:36:13.319 --> 01:36:17.000 have been this period where we drifted apart, right, and 1712 01:36:17.319 --> 01:36:19.880 so military leaders on both sides we're kind of looking 1713 01:36:19.960 --> 01:36:22.680 for a way to get us back together because they, 1714 01:36:23.079 --> 01:36:27.279 you know, the divorce was we never met anyone else, right, 1715 01:36:27.439 --> 01:36:29.720 we want to We're like that, we'll give it another shot. 1716 01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:31.800 So both military leaders on. 1717 01:36:31.760 --> 01:36:35.439 Both sides want to try to get the situation to 1718 01:36:35.439 --> 01:36:39.800 to to start again, to like reignite things, and particularly 1719 01:36:39.840 --> 01:36:42.439 after the I don't know if you remember the I 1720 01:36:42.520 --> 01:36:46.079 think I'm pronouncing this correctly, the Boyghinka plot where they 1721 01:36:46.079 --> 01:36:47.319 were going to bomb. 1722 01:36:47.039 --> 01:36:50.359 Something like twelve or a dozen. 1723 01:36:50.159 --> 01:36:54.119 Or somewhere in that range airc airliners, civilian airliners at 1724 01:36:54.159 --> 01:36:57.560 the same time period, including possibly I think they're going 1725 01:36:57.600 --> 01:36:59.520 to try to target the Pope also at the same 1726 01:36:59.560 --> 01:37:04.159 time period, and this is pre September eleventh, that originated 1727 01:37:04.359 --> 01:37:08.520 in the Philippines, that plot, and so the Philippines comes 1728 01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:11.359 to us in there as a former First Group officer 1729 01:37:11.640 --> 01:37:14.479 who is now as part of the Defense attache there 1730 01:37:14.920 --> 01:37:20.479 in the Mill Group, Joe Felter, Yes, yep, who were like, hey, 1731 01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:24.439 this sounds like a great opportunity. We'll stand you up 1732 01:37:24.479 --> 01:37:28.560 a national level counter terrorism force and you know that 1733 01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:31.079 that'll be a kind of way that we can kind 1734 01:37:31.079 --> 01:37:35.479 of re flower this relationship that is, you know, kind 1735 01:37:35.520 --> 01:37:41.000 of sat fallow for a while. And you know, then 1736 01:37:41.079 --> 01:37:44.840 September eleventh happens, and then the Burnhams and the other hostages, 1737 01:37:45.560 --> 01:37:48.479 and after those two it goes from. 1738 01:37:48.279 --> 01:37:51.760 Being like an idea to do it, and. 1739 01:37:51.720 --> 01:37:54.039 Not only I think the idea is that it started 1740 01:37:54.079 --> 01:37:58.079 even a little bit before. But what happens is all 1741 01:37:58.239 --> 01:38:02.000 the guat funds and firts and troops, i mean money 1742 01:38:02.000 --> 01:38:03.199 comes start flying out of that. 1743 01:38:03.359 --> 01:38:04.439 You know it was terrorism. 1744 01:38:04.520 --> 01:38:08.199 So there you go, it's a combination not only terrorism, 1745 01:38:08.399 --> 01:38:10.439 but you know, as Americans, we have this thing after 1746 01:38:10.479 --> 01:38:13.520 the running a hostage crisis of if you an Americans 1747 01:38:13.560 --> 01:38:17.359 sell the hostages. It's like Rome, We're coming for you. Right, 1748 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:21.720 So money starts, you know, falling out of the sky 1749 01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:25.680 for it, as well as additional forces being deployed for it, 1750 01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:28.800 and it goes actually from being a single company. The 1751 01:38:29.159 --> 01:38:32.279 original plan was to create a company that over time 1752 01:38:32.279 --> 01:38:33.239 but becomes a regiment. 1753 01:38:34.920 --> 01:38:37.199 Yeah. It went from an l r C to l 1754 01:38:37.319 --> 01:38:38.560 r B to l r R. 1755 01:38:38.800 --> 01:38:39.000 Yeah. 1756 01:38:40.159 --> 01:38:42.520 So it's it's it's a long term effort and it 1757 01:38:42.560 --> 01:38:46.399 is is the Burnhams, it is the ties to September eleventh. 1758 01:38:46.720 --> 01:38:52.840 It's the terrorism, the uh you know, and associated groups 1759 01:38:53.680 --> 01:38:57.960 that results in you know, hey, this that spark becomes 1760 01:38:58.000 --> 01:38:58.600 a fire. 1761 01:38:59.520 --> 01:39:01.720 So talk to us about the partner relationship. 1762 01:39:01.760 --> 01:39:05.119 There first Special Forces group in the lead, I think 1763 01:39:05.119 --> 01:39:07.199 the guys from Okinawa, right, Yeah. 1764 01:39:07.479 --> 01:39:10.399 I was similar to three seven, yeah right, because it's 1765 01:39:10.439 --> 01:39:13.920 the Ford deployed battalion and during the Cold War three 1766 01:39:14.039 --> 01:39:15.640 seven was in Panama. 1767 01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:17.840 So it made it a lot easier for them. 1768 01:39:17.680 --> 01:39:21.520 To deploy that and consistently deploy it because that's the 1769 01:39:21.520 --> 01:39:25.560 theater commander's force, right, and the theater commander he doesn't 1770 01:39:25.600 --> 01:39:28.439 have to go to the Joint staff to get that 1771 01:39:28.479 --> 01:39:29.199 force deployed. 1772 01:39:29.640 --> 01:39:31.680 It's just you make them go. 1773 01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:35.960 And so there were some parallels actually to Al Saladar 1774 01:39:36.159 --> 01:39:40.800 where and they were also fortunate because the First Group leadership, 1775 01:39:40.880 --> 01:39:45.279 for its part, saw consistency is important in returning the 1776 01:39:45.279 --> 01:39:48.680 same advisors to work with the l r R or 1777 01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:50.039 l RC or whatever it was. 1778 01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:51.000 At that point. 1779 01:39:52.640 --> 01:39:55.239 They saw it as important. They saw it as you know, 1780 01:39:55.239 --> 01:39:57.279 they tried to. They actually had names for them, and 1781 01:39:57.319 --> 01:40:02.600 they called it u Sorry I'm drawing a blank here 1782 01:40:02.640 --> 01:40:07.279 for a second. They called them as individuals that basically 1783 01:40:07.319 --> 01:40:11.600 would return. They made a strong effort to try to 1784 01:40:11.640 --> 01:40:16.239 redeploy the same individuals to the mission. And you saw 1785 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:20.479 parallels with Al Salvador where individuals would go five six, 1786 01:40:20.640 --> 01:40:24.199 seven rotations working with the l r R, l r C. 1787 01:40:25.720 --> 01:40:27.840 And that's easy to do in countries where people can 1788 01:40:27.880 --> 01:40:28.760 have second families. 1789 01:40:32.359 --> 01:40:36.000 I'm a Fifth Group guy, so that's not a Western 1790 01:40:36.079 --> 01:40:40.199 Union checks the First Group going back and forth, Seventh. 1791 01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:45.119 Empire, the parallels, but that yeah, yeah, but that, but 1792 01:40:45.199 --> 01:40:47.800 that is I think vitally important that. 1793 01:40:49.760 --> 01:40:53.000 One, you know, you build that rapport because you're there. 1794 01:40:53.359 --> 01:40:57.880 It's not just a rotation of you know, Americans coming through. 1795 01:40:58.319 --> 01:41:01.760 Everybody trying to imprint their idea of how things should 1796 01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:02.840 be done right. 1797 01:41:02.880 --> 01:41:03.840 It's the same people. 1798 01:41:04.560 --> 01:41:08.159 There's that trust that's built, it's the consistency that's built. 1799 01:41:09.520 --> 01:41:09.760 You know. 1800 01:41:10.279 --> 01:41:12.319 Yeah, it was in that I finally remembered the word 1801 01:41:12.359 --> 01:41:14.439 that I was looking for is they called them repeat 1802 01:41:14.439 --> 01:41:18.279 offenders or OAFP alumni. And so there was a command 1803 01:41:18.319 --> 01:41:21.840 effort also to like return the same people. 1804 01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:24.479 They recognized its values, that. 1805 01:41:24.800 --> 01:41:30.399 Individuals they would build rapport with leaders and that that 1806 01:41:30.760 --> 01:41:33.199 it made a difference in the quality of the unit. 1807 01:41:33.439 --> 01:41:37.720 There's this one great story of an E seven who 1808 01:41:37.720 --> 01:41:39.640 are actually I think he was an E eight at 1809 01:41:39.640 --> 01:41:44.119 that point, but at the very initial stand up of 1810 01:41:44.319 --> 01:41:48.119 the Light Reaction Company, at this very inception, you know, 1811 01:41:48.840 --> 01:41:51.640 Paycom you have specific command wants to like put together 1812 01:41:51.720 --> 01:41:54.079 a big dog and pony show with all the senior 1813 01:41:54.159 --> 01:41:57.920 leadership with the Armed Forces the Philippines. Of course, the 1814 01:41:57.960 --> 01:42:01.600 four star admiral from pay Com is going to be there, 1815 01:42:02.359 --> 01:42:08.279 and so uh sock pack the US Special Operations specific 1816 01:42:10.640 --> 01:42:13.319 on their list of individuals they're bringing, they have a 1817 01:42:13.840 --> 01:42:17.479 E eight on the list, and pay Com is like, 1818 01:42:17.640 --> 01:42:19.920 why are you bringing an eight? You know, like the 1819 01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:22.399 least ranking person other than that is like a lieutenant 1820 01:42:22.479 --> 01:42:25.640 colonel or maybe a you know, a major, and they're like, 1821 01:42:25.680 --> 01:42:29.159 you know, coffee makers, you're bringing an eight why is that? 1822 01:42:29.479 --> 01:42:30.920 And they like tried to kill. 1823 01:42:30.800 --> 01:42:34.520 Him from going on to this, you know, this planning 1824 01:42:34.560 --> 01:42:39.079 session to create the Light Reaction Company. UH sock Pack 1825 01:42:39.279 --> 01:42:44.680 held its ground, and you know, the master sergeant arrives 1826 01:42:45.439 --> 01:42:50.439 and when the senior Philippine military officers arrived there, you know, 1827 01:42:50.840 --> 01:42:54.000 their chief of staff at their army equivalent, walks in. 1828 01:42:54.399 --> 01:42:58.920 He sees this master sergeant and literally bypasses everyone else 1829 01:42:58.960 --> 01:43:01.760 in the receiving line, gives him a giant bar a hug, 1830 01:43:01.880 --> 01:43:05.159 starts talking to him about his family. And it's because 1831 01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:09.960 this individual had worked so many times in the Philippines that, 1832 01:43:10.399 --> 01:43:12.560 like you know, the old premise of a roll decks. 1833 01:43:12.560 --> 01:43:17.079 He knew everyone in the senior leadership like everyone, and 1834 01:43:17.159 --> 01:43:20.399 they had been like lieutenants when he had first deployed 1835 01:43:20.720 --> 01:43:23.560 as an East six over his joining year career. And 1836 01:43:23.600 --> 01:43:26.479 now he is you know, the you know, the commander 1837 01:43:26.479 --> 01:43:30.359 of the army. And it was when they're you know, 1838 01:43:30.439 --> 01:43:33.039 building the you know, starting to have the planning conference, 1839 01:43:33.079 --> 01:43:35.760 it's like, oh, fust start adn't know now I want 1840 01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:38.199 to listen to what the master sergeant has to say. 1841 01:43:38.800 --> 01:43:41.760 One more reason why SF doesn't always go so well. 1842 01:43:41.840 --> 01:43:44.359 It doesn't always land well with. 1843 01:43:44.479 --> 01:43:46.359 The conventional army. 1844 01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:47.119 Yeah. 1845 01:43:47.279 --> 01:43:50.600 Yeah, I had a great occasion. Can I give you 1846 01:43:50.640 --> 01:43:52.720 one of my stories from a trip out weft y. 1847 01:43:53.159 --> 01:43:58.159 So we were training at Naval Station El Centro, which 1848 01:43:58.159 --> 01:44:00.119 is a Navy base, and you know, the Navy is 1849 01:44:00.199 --> 01:44:03.760 really big on their ranks, and so you know, I'm 1850 01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:07.199 we're taking a day off for eating a third you know, 1851 01:44:07.319 --> 01:44:09.960 dying hall, and I'm eating in I guess whatever. 1852 01:44:09.960 --> 01:44:12.239 It's the Chiefs section, the chiefs. 1853 01:44:12.560 --> 01:44:14.439 Yeah, so the Navy. 1854 01:44:14.239 --> 01:44:18.359 Has the enlisted mess, the chief's mess, and the officers mess, 1855 01:44:18.399 --> 01:44:21.359 like they have three different Yes you do. 1856 01:44:21.920 --> 01:44:24.600 And I'm there, you know, with my guys, right and 1857 01:44:24.720 --> 01:44:30.199 so uh and so one of the chiefs notices me 1858 01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:32.880 and comes over. He's like, heyce Or, I think you're 1859 01:44:32.920 --> 01:44:35.199 in the wrong area. And I'm like, hey man, I'm 1860 01:44:35.199 --> 01:44:37.840 with my guys. Like I'm gonna be with my guys. 1861 01:44:37.920 --> 01:44:40.039 I'm not going to go eat somewhere else period, Like 1862 01:44:40.079 --> 01:44:40.720 that's not happening. 1863 01:44:40.880 --> 01:44:43.239 This is with your team. Yeah, this is my team. Yeah. 1864 01:44:44.760 --> 01:44:46.800 And of course one of my guys. One of east 1865 01:44:46.840 --> 01:44:49.880 up is like, hey, Frank, we have passed the assault. 1866 01:44:50.319 --> 01:44:52.760 Watching his head kind of explode that. 1867 01:44:52.920 --> 01:44:54.840 You know, my guys called me by my first name, 1868 01:44:54.960 --> 01:44:58.279 is like, anyways, the Navy is the. 1869 01:44:58.279 --> 01:45:01.039 Closest thing to a few system I think we have 1870 01:45:01.359 --> 01:45:04.000 in America in the sense of because on a ship 1871 01:45:04.039 --> 01:45:06.960 it is very segregated in terms of rank. 1872 01:45:07.119 --> 01:45:10.239 So yeah, yeah, anyway, so yeah, you hit that. 1873 01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:12.800 I apologize for that little story there, but it's I 1874 01:45:12.840 --> 01:45:17.279 think it's reflective of how sometimes soft we can rub people. 1875 01:45:17.439 --> 01:45:19.680 Yeah yeah, yeah. 1876 01:45:19.840 --> 01:45:23.000 So that l r R as it gets stand up 1877 01:45:23.239 --> 01:45:28.680 in its evolution versus what it was maybe initially designed to. 1878 01:45:28.600 --> 01:45:31.279 Do, versus what it became and what it began to do. 1879 01:45:31.960 --> 01:45:34.119 How did you kind of chart that out? 1880 01:45:34.319 --> 01:45:38.199 Yeah, so, you know, and again all these cases, I 1881 01:45:38.279 --> 01:45:42.520 was so fortunate to have so many SF guys, you know, 1882 01:45:42.600 --> 01:45:46.600 and then also host nation individuals talk to me and 1883 01:45:47.119 --> 01:45:50.199 tell me their stories, and you. 1884 01:45:50.159 --> 01:45:52.279 Know, it was one of the challenge. 1885 01:45:52.279 --> 01:45:57.239 There were challenges in particular in the Philippines because the 1886 01:45:57.359 --> 01:46:02.119 Light Reaction Regiment. Soon after it was formed, while it 1887 01:46:02.159 --> 01:46:05.920 was still a company, there. 1888 01:46:05.880 --> 01:46:06.199 Was a. 1889 01:46:08.479 --> 01:46:11.560 Coup plot the oak Wood The oak Wood plot against 1890 01:46:11.760 --> 01:46:17.039 the president. The President Arroyo and some of the leadership 1891 01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:20.560 of the Light Reaction Company were involved in the plot. 1892 01:46:20.680 --> 01:46:23.680 They always get a little kooi over there. Yeah, it 1893 01:46:23.760 --> 01:46:26.239 happens all the time where it gets very interesting. There's 1894 01:46:26.279 --> 01:46:27.199 a lot of ins and outs. 1895 01:46:27.239 --> 01:46:29.920 Like I was at Fort Meg Say say once, and 1896 01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:33.199 I was having just hanging out with a major their 1897 01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:37.560 version of SOCOM and we're just sitting there bullshit and 1898 01:46:37.600 --> 01:46:39.319 I think, like drinking a coke or something like that, 1899 01:46:39.359 --> 01:46:41.239 and he just like kind of as a blue tells 1900 01:46:41.279 --> 01:46:43.279 me like, yeah, I got some trouble because I was 1901 01:46:43.279 --> 01:46:44.439 involved in a coup plot. 1902 01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:46.600 You know, my unit never. 1903 01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:49.399 Moved because of some miscommunications, so I didn't get in 1904 01:46:49.600 --> 01:46:52.560 as much trouble as the other guys did. Uh, So 1905 01:46:52.680 --> 01:46:54.560 you know, they just kind of hid me out over here. 1906 01:46:54.600 --> 01:46:57.119 And now it's kind of okay, and I'm just like, wow, Okay, 1907 01:46:57.119 --> 01:46:59.920 this is a different kind of military here. 1908 01:47:00.560 --> 01:47:06.680 Yeah, I feel like Thomas Jefferson would approve a little rebellion. 1909 01:47:08.319 --> 01:47:11.760 Sometimes those those coups happened for or attempts happened for 1910 01:47:11.800 --> 01:47:12.479 different reasons. 1911 01:47:12.520 --> 01:47:13.680 But sometimes there's a lot of. 1912 01:47:13.600 --> 01:47:16.359 You have to understand, Like amongst the soldiers like if 1913 01:47:16.359 --> 01:47:20.199 their officers are like stealing their food for example. Oh yeah, 1914 01:47:20.239 --> 01:47:24.039 that lends units towards these sorts of attempts. 1915 01:47:24.279 --> 01:47:25.439 Yeah oh yeah. 1916 01:47:26.079 --> 01:47:31.319 Yeah, so that that created some real initial frictions that 1917 01:47:32.520 --> 01:47:37.079 hurt the unit's progress initially. And this is before you know, 1918 01:47:37.159 --> 01:47:39.680 the make say say it became become of the headquarters 1919 01:47:39.680 --> 01:47:43.039 of the Philippine equivalent of SoCon. They didn't have a 1920 01:47:43.039 --> 01:47:47.439 soft headquarters and so when the unit is first stood up, arguably. 1921 01:47:47.039 --> 01:47:50.239 They didn't until a few years ago. Right, yeah, that's right. 1922 01:47:51.119 --> 01:47:54.920 So it took years before they really had a soft headquarters. 1923 01:47:54.960 --> 01:47:58.000 So they experienced kind of some of the same challenges 1924 01:47:58.039 --> 01:48:01.880 that we experienced in the US when soft didn't have 1925 01:48:02.159 --> 01:48:06.359 apparent headquarters looking have for us, they're used improperly, they're 1926 01:48:06.439 --> 01:48:11.399 used for you know, uh, you know, personal protection detail. 1927 01:48:11.520 --> 01:48:15.199 They still were they they brought in a whole l 1928 01:48:15.319 --> 01:48:16.720 r C just to protect them. 1929 01:48:16.840 --> 01:48:17.159 Wow. 1930 01:48:17.319 --> 01:48:19.399 Yeah. But but you know, and the thing is is 1931 01:48:19.560 --> 01:48:22.199 like what President and if even if it was just 1932 01:48:22.239 --> 01:48:25.640 a couple of people, like that's what you can prove, right, 1933 01:48:25.920 --> 01:48:30.239 and what president wants their Tier one unit right there 1934 01:48:30.319 --> 01:48:33.880 there crack guys to be like. 1935 01:48:36.319 --> 01:48:39.079 Are they against me? Yeah? 1936 01:48:39.199 --> 01:48:41.359 And that's that's really what caused a lot of the 1937 01:48:41.399 --> 01:48:47.359 problems is that accommodation there. They the conventional forces used 1938 01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:51.880 them like like an hammer anvil approach, just not like 1939 01:48:51.960 --> 01:48:56.960 infantry operations, like an infantry like you know anyway you know, 1940 01:48:57.000 --> 01:49:00.239 a movement to contact basically like battle jill too, right, 1941 01:49:00.600 --> 01:49:03.640 and like there's to use a small. 1942 01:49:03.439 --> 01:49:05.840 Elite soft force like that is just madness. 1943 01:49:05.920 --> 01:49:11.239 Yeah, So there's a lot of challenge early on, and 1944 01:49:11.319 --> 01:49:16.119 it wasn't until battles later on where you know, in 1945 01:49:16.279 --> 01:49:21.279 Samboanga and where they were kind of thrown into the 1946 01:49:21.319 --> 01:49:24.479 situation because the situation was so dire and there were 1947 01:49:24.720 --> 01:49:28.680 hostages that were taken. So they needed you know that 1948 01:49:28.760 --> 01:49:32.560 kind of national counter terrorism capability due to hostage rescue missions. 1949 01:49:33.039 --> 01:49:34.319 And they get thrown into the. 1950 01:49:34.199 --> 01:49:39.159 Fight and they are it's a mixed you know kind of. 1951 01:49:39.159 --> 01:49:42.159 Results between you know, two critical battles that they have, 1952 01:49:42.800 --> 01:49:47.079 but they after some initial kind of missteps, they you know, 1953 01:49:47.239 --> 01:49:48.600 generally are. 1954 01:49:48.520 --> 01:49:50.720 Successful and they are able to. 1955 01:49:52.319 --> 01:49:56.920 Rescue you know, dozens of hostages successfully, which is I 1956 01:49:56.960 --> 01:50:01.159 mean you know that was Ted Yamas. 1957 01:50:01.560 --> 01:50:05.239 Yeah right, yes, man, that is the coolest dude ever. Please, yes, 1958 01:50:05.319 --> 01:50:06.920 you get to have a mirror with that guy. He's 1959 01:50:07.039 --> 01:50:11.039 such a cool guy and he's very low key, very humble, 1960 01:50:11.359 --> 01:50:13.039 and you wouldn't know it from talking to him. But 1961 01:50:13.159 --> 01:50:15.000 like later on I met some of the guys who 1962 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:17.560 were like his lieutenants at the time for the Zambo 1963 01:50:17.640 --> 01:50:20.840 siege and they're like, yeah, that dude was like went 1964 01:50:20.960 --> 01:50:21.720 right into the battle. 1965 01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:24.199 Was like, we're taking our o arp by force. 1966 01:50:24.239 --> 01:50:26.159 We're putting our ops in right there in that abandoned 1967 01:50:26.199 --> 01:50:28.159 school in the middle of the city. Let's go take 1968 01:50:28.199 --> 01:50:30.319 it and just start like running ops out of it. 1969 01:50:30.399 --> 01:50:33.399 He was like that was nuts, and like I had 1970 01:50:33.399 --> 01:50:35.600 to like fight this battle, but at the same time, 1971 01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:39.279 like try to stop my colonel from getting shot in 1972 01:50:39.319 --> 01:50:41.760 the because he was leading that from out front. 1973 01:50:41.800 --> 01:50:44.600 He was he was out there getting it done. Nice. Yeah, 1974 01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:46.119 ted Yamas is a really cool guy. 1975 01:50:46.239 --> 01:50:46.920 Yeah. 1976 01:50:46.960 --> 01:50:51.520 They are really fortunate that they have a bunch of 1977 01:50:51.600 --> 01:50:56.720 really good leaders, particularly during the battle Zamblanga and other 1978 01:50:57.000 --> 01:51:01.319 conflicts in that that time period that there's there's success 1979 01:51:01.359 --> 01:51:03.079 some of their sniper shots there. 1980 01:51:03.720 --> 01:51:05.920 Yeah yeah, yeah, uh. 1981 01:51:06.239 --> 01:51:09.399 And I think it's Zambo and also Morrow week Yeah uh, 1982 01:51:09.680 --> 01:51:12.199 the l r R snipers like did God's work. 1983 01:51:12.279 --> 01:51:16.279 They did. Yeah, they you know, they if. 1984 01:51:16.159 --> 01:51:19.920 I recall correctly, like one day they wiped out like 1985 01:51:20.039 --> 01:51:24.039 half of the senior leadership of the Papsilon's organization. 1986 01:51:24.199 --> 01:51:25.960 I think they smoked HVT number one. 1987 01:51:26.039 --> 01:51:29.119 They did, they got number one also, and you know, 1988 01:51:29.159 --> 01:51:32.640 it just it created a situation where it enabled the 1989 01:51:32.680 --> 01:51:34.760 rest of the conventionals to do the job, to be 1990 01:51:34.840 --> 01:51:36.279 able to really do the job. 1991 01:51:36.279 --> 01:51:37.640 Which is I mean, that's what's soft. 1992 01:51:38.359 --> 01:51:42.399 We're an enabler for the conventional forces in some in 1993 01:51:42.800 --> 01:51:46.560 most missions, and the conventional type. 1994 01:51:46.720 --> 01:51:46.960 Yeah. 1995 01:51:47.000 --> 01:51:53.560 Sorry, so so yeah, you know, they're they're pretty successful 1996 01:51:53.640 --> 01:51:57.880 in the Philippines despite the early challenges from the oak Wood. 1997 01:51:57.640 --> 01:52:01.640 Plot and uh, lessons learn from our partnership with the 1998 01:52:01.840 --> 01:52:04.800 l r R. What are the big takeaways? Yeah, you know, 1999 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:09.079 in some ways they're parallel with some of them from 2000 01:52:09.399 --> 01:52:15.000 El Salvare. That consistency is absolutely critical, and that those 2001 01:52:15.159 --> 01:52:19.520 interpersonal relationships, you know, I mean in America, sometimes we're 2002 01:52:19.640 --> 01:52:24.159 so fixated on just the job at hand that we 2003 01:52:24.279 --> 01:52:28.399 forget how important interpersonal relationships are and the rest of 2004 01:52:28.439 --> 01:52:33.760 the world those relationships are everything. And so having you 2005 01:52:33.800 --> 01:52:40.560 know those oif OFP alumni or you know, individuals who 2006 01:52:40.640 --> 01:52:43.520 come back mission after mission after mission. That those pay 2007 01:52:43.640 --> 01:52:48.600 huge dividends because they can kind of short yep their continuity. 2008 01:52:48.800 --> 01:52:51.520 They help the unit train better because it's not the 2009 01:52:51.760 --> 01:52:55.000 every year fighting to war twenty years one year at 2010 01:52:55.039 --> 01:52:58.760 a time, it's the same individuals coming back and in 2011 01:52:58.760 --> 01:52:59.680 some cases it's. 2012 01:52:59.479 --> 01:53:00.039 Back to that. 2013 01:53:00.199 --> 01:53:04.920 Yeah, so that has a huge impact. The Philippines also 2014 01:53:04.960 --> 01:53:10.119 is another case where language was interesting in that you know, 2015 01:53:10.279 --> 01:53:14.079 again were we spend SF spends about fifty million dollars 2016 01:53:14.119 --> 01:53:17.680 a year on language training. There's this whole premise that 2017 01:53:17.960 --> 01:53:19.840 you know, you can't be effective if you don't speak 2018 01:53:19.840 --> 01:53:22.520 the most nation language. And at least in the case 2019 01:53:22.560 --> 01:53:25.199 of building you know, a battalion size unit like the 2020 01:53:25.279 --> 01:53:30.279 light Reaction regiment or regimental size that it. 2021 01:53:30.279 --> 01:53:31.560 Didn't matter as much. 2022 01:53:31.880 --> 01:53:36.600 And there are multiple occasions where individuals would start speaking 2023 01:53:36.840 --> 01:53:40.640 in Filipino or Tagalog or whatever of the hundreds of 2024 01:53:40.640 --> 01:53:44.520 local dialects there are, and they either had situations where 2025 01:53:44.760 --> 01:53:47.479 half the individuals were like, I don't speak that dialect, 2026 01:53:47.479 --> 01:53:50.439 I have no idea what you're saying, or they're like, 2027 01:53:51.199 --> 01:53:53.720 you know, like almost like the scene from Inglorious Bastards 2028 01:53:53.880 --> 01:53:57.880 where it's like, do you Americans speak any language other 2029 01:53:57.920 --> 01:54:01.800 than English, you know, where it's like my English is 2030 01:54:01.840 --> 01:54:05.439 better than your to golle, So can you please speak 2031 01:54:05.439 --> 01:54:06.479 in English? 2032 01:54:07.000 --> 01:54:08.319 We'll understand you better. 2033 01:54:10.319 --> 01:54:12.960 One thing that I mean is not in your book, 2034 01:54:13.000 --> 01:54:16.159 I don't think. But I've been told that the main 2035 01:54:16.199 --> 01:54:19.319 partner force for the LRR in recent years has transitioned 2036 01:54:19.359 --> 01:54:23.920 from American Special Forces to Australian sas interesting and I 2037 01:54:23.960 --> 01:54:26.199 don't know if you have any thoughts about you know, 2038 01:54:28.159 --> 01:54:30.479 the partner force is actually kind of changing hands from 2039 01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:32.600 one Western soft unit to another. 2040 01:54:33.119 --> 01:54:35.319 And what that means if anything. 2041 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:43.319 Yeah, I mean, so relationships do matter, and in some 2042 01:54:43.439 --> 01:54:46.640 cases it is you know, if their relationship is deep enough, 2043 01:54:47.239 --> 01:54:49.079 you can go a couple of years and. 2044 01:54:49.039 --> 01:54:49.840 Pick it back up. 2045 01:54:50.239 --> 01:54:53.000 But if that relationship is allowed to kind of like 2046 01:54:53.199 --> 01:54:56.479 evolve to the point where no one knows anyone in the. 2047 01:54:56.479 --> 01:54:59.439 Leadership, again, it's starting over again. You're starting over. 2048 01:55:01.840 --> 01:55:05.079 You know, I did not work with the Australian sas, 2049 01:55:05.079 --> 01:55:08.399 so I you know, it's difficult for me to know 2050 01:55:08.479 --> 01:55:10.359 how good they're fit. 2051 01:55:11.279 --> 01:55:13.479 You know, advisory skills are. 2052 01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:16.039 So. 2053 01:55:17.680 --> 01:55:20.439 I mean, you know it's interesting. 2054 01:55:20.520 --> 01:55:23.119 We you know, as a nation, we keep talking about 2055 01:55:23.479 --> 01:55:26.279 wanting to shift our focus to the Pacific, but we 2056 01:55:26.359 --> 01:55:32.239 keep getting drugged back into sentcom time after time. I 2057 01:55:32.239 --> 01:55:36.079 would kind of premise that, you know, particularly given the 2058 01:55:36.079 --> 01:55:40.399 Philippines position, you know, with regards to China and the 2059 01:55:40.920 --> 01:55:45.199 conflicts and frictions that already exist between them, we would 2060 01:55:45.239 --> 01:55:49.760 be well served to maintain a strong relationships with them. 2061 01:55:50.000 --> 01:55:57.239 Yeah, let's jump into Colombia. Columbia twenty two to twenty sixteen. 2062 01:55:57.319 --> 01:56:01.399 So again, now we're in South coom totally different fight, 2063 01:56:01.600 --> 01:56:02.560 totally different terrain. 2064 01:56:02.760 --> 01:56:04.960 Jungle Mountainous are still. 2065 01:56:04.720 --> 01:56:08.520 Down there with their second families there, so there's there's 2066 01:56:07.319 --> 01:56:11.760 some similarity. 2067 01:56:11.880 --> 01:56:16.960 And fighting narco terrorism at this time with FARC. You know. 2068 01:56:17.000 --> 01:56:20.079 I recall when we had Frankie on the show asking 2069 01:56:20.119 --> 01:56:23.239 him about about this. This subject came up, like why 2070 01:56:23.279 --> 01:56:26.840 did Colombia work when so many of our other partnerships didn't, 2071 01:56:27.239 --> 01:56:30.079 And the Colombian officer told them something like, well, we're 2072 01:56:30.079 --> 01:56:32.880 closer to you, and we're much closer, have much more 2073 01:56:32.920 --> 01:56:35.159 in common culturally, and that was that's it. 2074 01:56:35.560 --> 01:56:38.439 Yeah, I mean, I think that's there's I think there's 2075 01:56:38.439 --> 01:56:41.079 a component of that, but I think there are other 2076 01:56:41.199 --> 01:56:47.239 factors and I think the So the Colombians. 2077 01:56:46.720 --> 01:56:49.560 Went through a period where. 2078 01:56:51.600 --> 01:56:56.760 You know, President and Simpler his his presidency was racked 2079 01:56:56.800 --> 01:57:00.199 with corruption to the point where the US and I 2080 01:57:00.239 --> 01:57:05.359 believe this is under Clinton, literally shuts off AID and 2081 01:57:05.600 --> 01:57:08.600 there is so much corruption that we can't and I mean, 2082 01:57:08.640 --> 01:57:11.640 you know, we're in the drug war, right, and this 2083 01:57:11.680 --> 01:57:13.560 is like the greatest place where the drug war is 2084 01:57:13.560 --> 01:57:18.880 coming from. And yet we actually went hardcore and said, hey, yeah, 2085 01:57:19.079 --> 01:57:22.720 no more candy from you, because you guys are so corrupt. 2086 01:57:23.039 --> 01:57:26.680 We are shutting off the money spigot, right, And that 2087 01:57:26.720 --> 01:57:32.119 created a lot of things impacts within Colombia because after Sampler, 2088 01:57:32.640 --> 01:57:39.920 the next president who basically pushed forth planned Columbia cleaned house. 2089 01:57:41.520 --> 01:57:44.439 Ob Yeah, and I believe it was Adibam. 2090 01:57:44.520 --> 01:57:53.119 I apologize, my little deaf dump details right now. I apologize. 2091 01:57:53.199 --> 01:57:58.680 He basically cleans house, takes off almost all the three 2092 01:57:58.720 --> 01:58:02.239 and four stards in the army, reappoints individuals who are 2093 01:58:03.039 --> 01:58:07.159 you know, upstanding, not corrupt, who want to win, who 2094 01:58:07.239 --> 01:58:10.359 are capable, and then they in turn appoint a whole 2095 01:58:10.399 --> 01:58:14.359 series of individuals below them who are also capable. And 2096 01:58:14.399 --> 01:58:16.840 so it's like this entire virtuous cycle where it's like 2097 01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:20.800 cascading levels where everyone is appointing, like cleaning under them 2098 01:58:21.039 --> 01:58:23.079 and appointing new individuals under them. 2099 01:58:23.560 --> 01:58:27.239 That has a huge impact because all those. 2100 01:58:27.239 --> 01:58:29.199 New Colombian officers who come in. 2101 01:58:29.119 --> 01:58:32.800 A lot of them have trained in US programs and 2102 01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:35.760 they are really capable, and so they come in with 2103 01:58:35.800 --> 01:58:41.000 a totally different perspective and they want to win. And 2104 01:58:41.399 --> 01:58:45.399 so when you know, we start working to partner with them, 2105 01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:47.840 there are some of the old hands. 2106 01:58:47.920 --> 01:58:50.359 I mean, it's we should point out too in that 2107 01:58:50.439 --> 01:58:53.199 regard that our relationship with Columbia also goes back to 2108 01:58:53.239 --> 01:58:55.439 like what the Korean War I think is. 2109 01:58:55.840 --> 01:58:59.079 Yeah, and the one of the units, the Alan a 2110 01:58:59.159 --> 01:59:05.199 group of ascilland Lencero Lancero group is formed after the 2111 01:59:05.199 --> 01:59:10.159 the Lancero's. The Lancero's is kind of a Colombian version 2112 01:59:10.199 --> 01:59:14.199 of Ranger School, but you know, without the safety restrictions, 2113 01:59:14.279 --> 01:59:15.880 without any safety restrictions. 2114 01:59:15.920 --> 01:59:19.279 And I think, I mean, I, you know, been in 2115 01:59:19.319 --> 01:59:20.159 the Ranger School. 2116 01:59:19.880 --> 01:59:23.119 But didn't go to Lancero, but my friends who have been, 2117 01:59:23.399 --> 01:59:25.119 is like, it's harder the Ranger school. 2118 01:59:25.479 --> 01:59:30.800 Yeah, Like and you do combat patrols, like real combat patrol. Yeah, 2119 01:59:30.880 --> 01:59:34.880 your graduation as a Colombian. Nothing else but the Colombians. 2120 01:59:34.920 --> 01:59:36.520 Yes, I know a seventh Group guy that went to 2121 01:59:36.560 --> 01:59:38.880 Lanceero and like his ranger buddy. 2122 01:59:38.560 --> 01:59:44.479 Got smoked on patrol. Wow. Wow, it was a Colombian officer. 2123 01:59:45.560 --> 01:59:45.920 Yeah. 2124 01:59:46.159 --> 01:59:48.920 And so you know, Lancero School was something that the 2125 01:59:49.000 --> 01:59:52.399 US actually started in the fifties. They came to from like, hey, 2126 01:59:52.439 --> 01:59:54.520 we'd like a ranger school type course. 2127 01:59:55.279 --> 01:59:55.720 And so. 2128 01:59:57.199 --> 02:00:00.119 I think the second advisor who is standing a the 2129 02:00:00.199 --> 02:00:04.680 Lancero program actually ended up being the southcom commander in 2130 02:00:04.720 --> 02:00:06.439 the eighties in El Salvador. 2131 02:00:06.479 --> 02:00:07.960 And there's these all weird. 2132 02:00:07.680 --> 02:00:11.439 Connections where like a bunch of the individuals who are 2133 02:00:11.520 --> 02:00:16.479 really junior advisors in El Salvador are now like group 2134 02:00:16.560 --> 02:00:22.880 sergeant majors or like group commanders or you know, SoC 2135 02:00:23.159 --> 02:00:25.880 South commanders. They're all senior leaders and this they have 2136 02:00:25.960 --> 02:00:29.520 this experience from Al Salvador, and they're kind of trying 2137 02:00:29.520 --> 02:00:35.399 to compare the you know, the different situations. But you know, 2138 02:00:36.159 --> 02:00:40.760 the relationship is strong. The Colombians really want to they 2139 02:00:40.760 --> 02:00:42.960 want to succeed, and they kind of want to please 2140 02:00:43.000 --> 02:00:43.720 the Americans. 2141 02:00:44.000 --> 02:00:44.880 So there is this. 2142 02:00:44.880 --> 02:00:49.720 Really good relationship where they when we ask them to 2143 02:00:49.760 --> 02:00:52.880 do something unless it's like really stupid. 2144 02:00:53.600 --> 02:00:53.800 You know. 2145 02:00:53.840 --> 02:00:56.760 It's not like in Afghanistan or Iraq where there's a 2146 02:00:56.800 --> 02:00:59.920 lot of foot dragging. Like the Colombians were like, okay. 2147 02:01:00.800 --> 02:01:03.239 The Colombian people, I sense, are also like kind of 2148 02:01:03.279 --> 02:01:04.359 sick of FARC at this point. 2149 02:01:04.479 --> 02:01:05.640 They're sick of the FARC. 2150 02:01:05.760 --> 02:01:09.239 Yeah, and it's been you know, they've been at war 2151 02:01:09.279 --> 02:01:13.880 for decades, yes, like fifty years, and so it's it's 2152 02:01:13.920 --> 02:01:18.279 not just you know that there's pressure from the US 2153 02:01:18.720 --> 02:01:22.720 that convinces you know, that go when it goes from 2154 02:01:22.800 --> 02:01:26.800 Saint Pler to Oriba. But there's also the Columbian electorate 2155 02:01:26.960 --> 02:01:29.600 is like, look, we've had it, you know, and they 2156 02:01:30.479 --> 02:01:33.319 I believe they doubled like the percentage GP going to 2157 02:01:35.640 --> 02:01:41.760 the to the defense to military. They supported transition from 2158 02:01:41.760 --> 02:01:45.159 a draft to a professional army, all these like series 2159 02:01:45.199 --> 02:01:50.479 of reforms that you know, improved their military capabilities domestically 2160 02:01:50.479 --> 02:01:52.119 that they took on themselves. 2161 02:01:53.479 --> 02:01:57.840 So from the Colombian soft perspective and the US Special 2162 02:01:57.880 --> 02:02:01.199 Forces partnership, same question, I mean, what went right? 2163 02:02:01.239 --> 02:02:04.680 What went wrong there? Yeah? I mean the Colombian soft. 2164 02:02:04.399 --> 02:02:08.279 Is literally the. 2165 02:02:07.079 --> 02:02:11.000 The poster child of like the best example of a 2166 02:02:11.039 --> 02:02:14.720 soft result. I think we could hope for they they 2167 02:02:14.840 --> 02:02:18.960 you know, Columbia goes from exporting coca to a country 2168 02:02:18.960 --> 02:02:22.399 that's exporting security forces assistance where they're literally doing FID 2169 02:02:22.439 --> 02:02:27.319 missions throughout southcom and like they're working so closely they're 2170 02:02:27.359 --> 02:02:29.840 with us, Like they're like, Hey, we're going to go 2171 02:02:29.960 --> 02:02:33.119 to I don't know, I don't know that, I can't 2172 02:02:33.119 --> 02:02:36.520 remember the nation, but Trinidad or two Barbados, and we're 2173 02:02:36.520 --> 02:02:37.560 going to do a FID mission there. 2174 02:02:37.680 --> 02:02:39.560 What would you like us to train them on? 2175 02:02:40.680 --> 02:02:43.359 And that's literally working yourself out of a job, literally 2176 02:02:43.399 --> 02:02:45.199 working yourself out of a job, not only in the 2177 02:02:45.239 --> 02:02:46.960 country but across the theater. 2178 02:02:47.239 --> 02:02:51.119 Yeah, right, which which is you know, which is a 2179 02:02:51.159 --> 02:02:53.560 testament to what you accomplished there? 2180 02:02:53.600 --> 02:02:53.880 I think. 2181 02:02:54.039 --> 02:02:54.279 Yeah. 2182 02:02:54.359 --> 02:02:57.039 And the long term, you know, playing Columbia and all that, 2183 02:02:57.159 --> 02:02:59.319 I mean, there's some long term you know thinking that 2184 02:02:59.359 --> 02:03:00.439 went into that for. 2185 02:03:00.359 --> 02:03:04.399 Sure, and the you know, a lot of the successes 2186 02:03:04.479 --> 02:03:10.560 there is that there is consistency and that there's actually 2187 02:03:10.560 --> 02:03:13.399 more consistency on the Colombian side than there is on 2188 02:03:13.439 --> 02:03:14.239 the American side. 2189 02:03:14.319 --> 02:03:15.399 Right the. 2190 02:03:17.239 --> 02:03:20.119 In the mission in Columbia, they're their challenges because you know, 2191 02:03:20.159 --> 02:03:23.359 I mean, it's in the middle of the Gyt and 2192 02:03:23.359 --> 02:03:27.560 and there are these demands in Afghanistan, their demands in 2193 02:03:27.760 --> 02:03:30.560 at Ac. There's you know, everyone's getting pulled every which way. 2194 02:03:30.640 --> 02:03:32.680 That was a big thing in Colombia at that time, 2195 02:03:32.800 --> 02:03:35.159 with like all the like willing spirit and everything like that. 2196 02:03:35.199 --> 02:03:37.359 They're kind of having to compete for resources. 2197 02:03:37.600 --> 02:03:40.640 Yeah, and you know it's one of the individuals said, 2198 02:03:40.680 --> 02:03:45.239 you know, we're we're supporting theater, and so you know, 2199 02:03:45.439 --> 02:03:47.359 we would get what we got and we just had 2200 02:03:47.399 --> 02:03:50.279 to live with it, and that they were just fortunate 2201 02:03:50.279 --> 02:03:53.880 that the Colombian partners were so dedicated and that in 2202 02:03:53.920 --> 02:03:58.079 particular those soft units, unlike most of the other soft units, 2203 02:03:58.119 --> 02:03:59.920 you know, it became like ours. 2204 02:04:00.399 --> 02:04:01.159 They created a. 2205 02:04:01.600 --> 02:04:05.479 So calm, a use of sock, a national you know force, 2206 02:04:06.279 --> 02:04:10.239 and individuals would spend twenty year careers in that. Yeah, 2207 02:04:11.520 --> 02:04:16.800 and so those relationships would just help tremendously as well 2208 02:04:16.840 --> 02:04:21.079 as the Colombians, you know, not resisting reform. 2209 02:04:21.359 --> 02:04:21.520 Right. 2210 02:04:21.920 --> 02:04:23.359 You know, when we would. 2211 02:04:23.079 --> 02:04:27.439 Suggest something, the colombiansoud be like okay, sure, like unless 2212 02:04:27.439 --> 02:04:29.760 it was stupid, and even if it was stupid, sometimes 2213 02:04:29.800 --> 02:04:31.760 they would do it to like placate us, right, but 2214 02:04:31.800 --> 02:04:34.399 then not like follow. 2215 02:04:34.119 --> 02:04:34.880 Through the whole way. 2216 02:04:35.880 --> 02:04:39.800 We were really blessed to have great partners in Colombia and. 2217 02:04:39.800 --> 02:04:44.960 So fark collapsed, that conflict is over. But I mean, 2218 02:04:44.960 --> 02:04:47.159 correct me if I'm wrong. My impression of it is 2219 02:04:47.159 --> 02:04:49.920 that a lot of the drug violence got pushed into Ecuador, 2220 02:04:50.439 --> 02:04:53.840 and we have a lot of Ecuadorian mostly illegal immigrants 2221 02:04:53.840 --> 02:04:56.439 here in the city. I understand, like they're here because 2222 02:04:56.439 --> 02:04:58.439 of the violence and the poverty. 2223 02:04:58.039 --> 02:05:00.560 In their country. I mean, what do you think about that? 2224 02:05:00.880 --> 02:05:04.359 About that that like there's always these insurgent elements in 2225 02:05:04.560 --> 02:05:06.760 South America, and like, are we ever going to be 2226 02:05:06.760 --> 02:05:09.119 able to really as long as there's an American demand 2227 02:05:09.119 --> 02:05:10.760 for drugs, are we really going to be able to 2228 02:05:10.960 --> 02:05:11.359 end that? 2229 02:05:11.880 --> 02:05:12.560 Yeah? 2230 02:05:12.640 --> 02:05:15.359 I mean, you know, it goes back to the movie Traffic, 2231 02:05:15.880 --> 02:05:17.960 and then you know the movie Traffic, one of the 2232 02:05:18.279 --> 02:05:23.359 guys who's turned against the narco traffickers, you know, is 2233 02:05:23.439 --> 02:05:26.800 talking with one of the individuals that's guarding him and says, look, 2234 02:05:27.479 --> 02:05:29.439 you guys are never going to win this because you're 2235 02:05:29.439 --> 02:05:32.079 fighting this war on both sides. Yeah, you're you know, 2236 02:05:32.479 --> 02:05:35.560 you're fighting by it because you want to get there's 2237 02:05:35.600 --> 02:05:39.039 such a demand for drugs that you're fighting you know, 2238 02:05:39.600 --> 02:05:41.880 to get the drugs, so you fight the drug war there, 2239 02:05:41.880 --> 02:05:44.079 but you're fighting the drug war by getting it shipped 2240 02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:47.159 to you. So you're never gonna win until you resolve 2241 02:05:47.199 --> 02:05:48.119 that challenge and. 2242 02:05:48.600 --> 02:05:51.760 Fight the war on drugs and drugs won. Yeah, that's 2243 02:05:51.840 --> 02:05:58.039 a man especially, you know. I mean, you know, it's 2244 02:05:58.079 --> 02:06:03.880 it's just a huge it's it's the Gordian not right, No, 2245 02:06:04.000 --> 02:06:06.840 I mean it's I mean, but you deal with it. 2246 02:06:07.079 --> 02:06:08.640 I mean, I think you deal with the way you 2247 02:06:08.680 --> 02:06:11.800 deal with prohibition or anything else. You legalize it and 2248 02:06:11.840 --> 02:06:15.600 tax the hell out of it. You know, Once you 2249 02:06:15.680 --> 02:06:17.920 do that and give it legitimacy. 2250 02:06:19.119 --> 02:06:21.319 It kills It kills the black market, It. 2251 02:06:21.359 --> 02:06:26.239 Kills one course of action. I mean, I I don't know. 2252 02:06:26.479 --> 02:06:31.279 I you know, drugs is unfortunately not my uh you 2253 02:06:31.319 --> 02:06:34.199 know that the drug war is not my kind of specialty. 2254 02:06:34.399 --> 02:06:37.760 Yeah, so I don't well, I don't advocate. 2255 02:06:37.800 --> 02:06:40.439 I think I think drugs are horrible, you know, like 2256 02:06:40.560 --> 02:06:43.600 most drugs or a lot of drugs are horrible and 2257 02:06:44.239 --> 02:06:46.439 destroy people in families and communities. 2258 02:06:46.760 --> 02:06:50.720 However, he's always going to be demand if there's. 2259 02:06:50.560 --> 02:06:55.760 The demand, like you know, war on drugs, like before 2260 02:06:55.800 --> 02:06:57.800 the gy, like the war on drugs was where all 2261 02:06:57.800 --> 02:07:01.479 the money went to, right, It's just it's everybody wanted 2262 02:07:01.520 --> 02:07:02.520 to be part of that. 2263 02:07:02.520 --> 02:07:04.520 That's why I did JTS six mission, Yeah, because there 2264 02:07:04.520 --> 02:07:06.479 was tons of money there and then get our vehicles 2265 02:07:06.479 --> 02:07:09.399 out to the West train for Yeah. 2266 02:07:09.399 --> 02:07:11.079 Everybody makes fun of the Coast Guard, but the Coast 2267 02:07:11.079 --> 02:07:13.600 Guard was stacking bodies because they wore on drugs time. 2268 02:07:14.000 --> 02:07:14.199 You know. 2269 02:07:14.439 --> 02:07:18.479 So it's one of those things of you know, do 2270 02:07:18.560 --> 02:07:22.680 you keep sort of with the self flagellation saying this 2271 02:07:22.880 --> 02:07:26.720 is the moral course or deal with the practicality of it. 2272 02:07:27.199 --> 02:07:28.560 I don't know what the right answer is. 2273 02:07:28.640 --> 02:07:33.319 But yeah, so as we come to a RAQ, I'm 2274 02:07:33.319 --> 02:07:34.800 not going to harp on it too much. We talked 2275 02:07:34.800 --> 02:07:39.119 a lot about Iraq, but just through the soft perspective 2276 02:07:39.239 --> 02:07:42.000 and the partnerships with the i CTF. 2277 02:07:41.680 --> 02:07:46.960 And the commando. Yeah, just talk to us about how 2278 02:07:47.000 --> 02:07:48.199 that partnership played out. 2279 02:07:48.560 --> 02:07:52.319 Yeah, And it was similar to the others in that 2280 02:07:53.319 --> 02:07:59.000 everyone recognized that relationships matter, and the same individuals kept 2281 02:07:59.000 --> 02:08:03.159 coming back time after time after time to the point where, 2282 02:08:03.560 --> 02:08:06.600 particularly with the ice off, they got to a point 2283 02:08:06.600 --> 02:08:11.600 where one unit would deploy, the next unit would be 2284 02:08:11.640 --> 02:08:14.479 in garrison and then they would flip lump and it 2285 02:08:14.520 --> 02:08:19.079 would be just you know, one punch after another for 2286 02:08:19.159 --> 02:08:21.239 almost like two or three years. So the first two 2287 02:08:21.279 --> 02:08:23.960 or three years were just two units, and then they 2288 02:08:23.960 --> 02:08:25.800 got to the point where they're starting to hit burnout. 2289 02:08:26.199 --> 02:08:29.800 So they're like, okay, well we'll do three punches where 2290 02:08:30.359 --> 02:08:34.399 we'll do one two and then another unit. Every other 2291 02:08:34.520 --> 02:08:38.319 rotation will bring somebody else in. But even then that 2292 02:08:38.560 --> 02:08:41.199 was you know, like one in four rotations it ended 2293 02:08:41.239 --> 02:08:41.760 up being. 2294 02:08:42.399 --> 02:08:46.359 So there's huge just consistency. 2295 02:08:45.720 --> 02:08:49.359 Where even while they're in garrison they're using WhatsApp or 2296 02:08:49.359 --> 02:08:54.239 whatever to communicate you know, too forward and find where 2297 02:08:54.319 --> 02:08:56.359 what the unit is doing, where it's at, what its 2298 02:08:56.359 --> 02:09:00.199 skill levels at, and so that they're in touch with 2299 02:09:00.319 --> 02:09:03.199 that they can return and pick right back up where 2300 02:09:03.239 --> 02:09:04.319 they were last time. 2301 02:09:04.760 --> 02:09:07.319 There's I mean, there's there's ownership of the unit. Yeah, 2302 02:09:07.319 --> 02:09:10.239 they acted as the paymasters for the unit. They came 2303 02:09:10.319 --> 02:09:11.760 up with the to and the like. 2304 02:09:12.000 --> 02:09:15.159 The Americans really were running those units at that time. 2305 02:09:16.239 --> 02:09:19.279 One of the themes really kind of across many of 2306 02:09:19.319 --> 02:09:23.520 the case studies was that in some cases the US 2307 02:09:23.560 --> 02:09:26.960 has a reluctance to in almost are you know, our 2308 02:09:27.039 --> 02:09:31.199 like liberalism from like a Jeffersonian like liberalism right ideal 2309 02:09:31.760 --> 02:09:35.079 that like we we don't want to be a colonialist 2310 02:09:35.159 --> 02:09:36.319 and like run things. 2311 02:09:37.239 --> 02:09:41.319 But a theme kind of became was that there's sometimes 2312 02:09:41.359 --> 02:09:42.680 that you have to step back. 2313 02:09:42.920 --> 02:09:45.840 It's the responsible thing to do, the responsible thing to do, 2314 02:09:46.079 --> 02:09:50.399 and not from a colonial perspective, but just to prevent corruption, 2315 02:09:50.920 --> 02:09:53.600 to enforce standards. 2316 02:09:52.960 --> 02:09:54.479 To take care of the soldiers, to take care of. 2317 02:09:54.479 --> 02:09:57.720 The soldiers, and and if you do that at the 2318 02:09:57.800 --> 02:10:02.079 beginning and then you trans position, they can be more 2319 02:10:02.119 --> 02:10:05.840 successful than if you didn't do it at all. And 2320 02:10:06.159 --> 02:10:11.319 for example, in the ice off, you know, the US 2321 02:10:11.560 --> 02:10:15.359 held a selection and if the guy didn't pass selection, 2322 02:10:15.840 --> 02:10:18.159 they didn't go to the ice off. And it was 2323 02:10:18.159 --> 02:10:21.560 a real selection. It wasn't like everyone passes. You know, 2324 02:10:21.680 --> 02:10:24.640 they're taking off half to a third of the individuals. 2325 02:10:25.239 --> 02:10:29.079 They selected the leadership also, which is really the most important. 2326 02:10:30.039 --> 02:10:34.159 You know, father Jel Barawi, who is the you know, 2327 02:10:34.279 --> 02:10:39.920 second brigade commander, really won't be a kind of core 2328 02:10:40.000 --> 02:10:44.640 driving force of the iesoft who you know, not perfect, 2329 02:10:44.760 --> 02:10:47.880 but he was brave. You know, it was like the 2330 02:10:47.880 --> 02:10:52.359 individual in the Philippines. You know that you're talking about 2331 02:10:52.399 --> 02:10:54.880 he was brave, he was a dynamic leader. 2332 02:10:55.079 --> 02:10:56.039 He led from the front. 2333 02:10:56.119 --> 02:10:57.000 He's a Kurdish dude. 2334 02:10:57.159 --> 02:11:02.119 He was a Kurdish dude, and he you know, in Iraq. 2335 02:11:02.199 --> 02:11:05.159 He was a little corrupt, but he wasn't really badly right, right, 2336 02:11:06.079 --> 02:11:09.439 And so it was enough where because we had picked 2337 02:11:09.479 --> 02:11:13.079 these people who we knew were going to be decent leaders, 2338 02:11:13.119 --> 02:11:14.319 the unit was successful. 2339 02:11:14.560 --> 02:11:17.000 It was also interesting how you point out how it 2340 02:11:17.039 --> 02:11:21.079 was like mandated that the demographics of the unit represent 2341 02:11:21.119 --> 02:11:24.960 the ethnicity you know, percentages you know, across Iraq. 2342 02:11:25.479 --> 02:11:27.119 So there's like what six different. 2343 02:11:26.800 --> 02:11:30.039 Groups of Yeah, that was another thing that they really 2344 02:11:30.600 --> 02:11:33.720 mandated again and it wasn't the iraqis that, you know, 2345 02:11:33.800 --> 02:11:38.359 it was like, okay, from squad level to battalion level, 2346 02:11:39.520 --> 02:11:42.239 you know, everything is going to represent Rock's demo demographics. 2347 02:11:42.239 --> 02:11:46.199 They're going to be roughly twenty percent Kords, roughly you know, 2348 02:11:46.239 --> 02:11:50.239 twenty percent Sydney, and then roughly sixty percent you know, 2349 02:11:50.520 --> 02:11:54.239 Shia and then handful of other minorities to comment and 2350 02:11:54.239 --> 02:11:54.640 it like. 2351 02:11:54.560 --> 02:11:57.279 Gave them the reputation over time, right that they're not 2352 02:11:58.239 --> 02:12:01.319 like a partisan force of like Sun He's going after 2353 02:12:01.359 --> 02:12:02.520 Shias or vice versa. 2354 02:12:02.640 --> 02:12:04.279 That they are a national force. 2355 02:12:04.439 --> 02:12:09.199 It became a national force, and individuals within the unit, 2356 02:12:09.960 --> 02:12:12.479 you know, interviewing them, they'd be like, yeah, you know, 2357 02:12:12.560 --> 02:12:14.279 at first, it was really hard for me to like 2358 02:12:14.439 --> 02:12:18.079 trust like the dude, the sun dude that I thought 2359 02:12:18.119 --> 02:12:19.560 was like you know, and we thought they were like 2360 02:12:19.600 --> 02:12:22.119 al kaeda. You know, I've been raised to think Sunnis 2361 02:12:22.119 --> 02:12:24.159 were gonna murder us, and the Suniors. 2362 02:12:23.840 --> 02:12:25.800 Are like, I've been raised, you know that you know 2363 02:12:25.840 --> 02:12:26.720 all a Shio were. 2364 02:12:26.560 --> 02:12:30.000 Apostates and that they were devil worshipers, you know, and 2365 02:12:30.119 --> 02:12:34.399 but you know, you fight alongside of them for months 2366 02:12:34.439 --> 02:12:37.000 at a time and you kind of realize, like, this 2367 02:12:37.079 --> 02:12:42.159 guy saved my life more than once, and like it 2368 02:12:42.239 --> 02:12:45.079 builds these bonds or the unit become the national unit. 2369 02:12:45.560 --> 02:12:47.479 Was that that quote in your book where they did 2370 02:12:47.479 --> 02:12:49.920 some op that had all this political fallout and the 2371 02:12:49.960 --> 02:12:52.439 Iraqi was like, yeah, we don't care about that. 2372 02:12:52.479 --> 02:12:56.319 We worked for President Bush. Yeah, there was, I think 2373 02:12:56.359 --> 02:12:57.359 it was I can't remember. 2374 02:12:57.439 --> 02:12:59.520 There was six or seven is the tenth reup rotation 2375 02:13:00.199 --> 02:13:02.680 and it was a hit on a mosque where in 2376 02:13:02.680 --> 02:13:06.319 one of these typical cases the insurgents, I think it 2377 02:13:06.399 --> 02:13:11.319 was a sodrest as a Shia mosque, I believe where afterwards, 2378 02:13:11.880 --> 02:13:16.920 you know, they re arranged in the bodies, they take 2379 02:13:16.960 --> 02:13:19.880 all the weapons away, they shoot a couple of civilians 2380 02:13:19.920 --> 02:13:22.800 and women and children in the streets, drag their bodies in, 2381 02:13:22.920 --> 02:13:25.479 and all the Americans have mastered all these people at prayer, 2382 02:13:25.600 --> 02:13:27.399 you know, they put out prayer rugs and everything, so 2383 02:13:27.439 --> 02:13:31.319 it looks like fortunately they had also had a combat 2384 02:13:31.920 --> 02:13:35.279 cameraman on that mission, so it like on the US side. 2385 02:13:35.079 --> 02:13:36.199 It helped us for a little bit. 2386 02:13:36.800 --> 02:13:39.359 But on the Iraqi side, the Iraqis were like, and 2387 02:13:39.399 --> 02:13:43.479 this is one of those examples of where at some point, 2388 02:13:43.680 --> 02:13:48.720 you know, you can't play nice when the host nation 2389 02:13:48.920 --> 02:13:52.279 is being corrupt and incompetent, you have to step in. 2390 02:13:53.439 --> 02:13:57.399 And you know, we stepped in enough that you know, 2391 02:13:57.479 --> 02:14:01.199 like you had said, we were paying the Iraqi Is 2392 02:14:01.239 --> 02:14:04.359 like directly to make sure that the soldiers that the 2393 02:14:04.359 --> 02:14:08.720 commander wasn't right stealing money, like the American soldiers were 2394 02:14:08.760 --> 02:14:12.279 paying them to make sure that there there's no corruption, 2395 02:14:12.359 --> 02:14:13.239 that they were getting paid. 2396 02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:15.800 And they're like, man, like I'm getting paid. 2397 02:14:16.159 --> 02:14:20.279 My chow is good because nobody's skimming money off the 2398 02:14:20.359 --> 02:14:24.079 chow fund. Like I'm getting fed you know, my family's 2399 02:14:24.119 --> 02:14:26.520 here on base too, because they are worried that, you 2400 02:14:26.560 --> 02:14:29.079 know that if my family was off base, they'd get killed. 2401 02:14:29.399 --> 02:14:31.119 So I'm willing to. 2402 02:14:31.079 --> 02:14:34.359 Fight because we've arranged all these things to be successful. 2403 02:14:34.680 --> 02:14:38.680 And then over time you slowly start stepping back and 2404 02:14:38.720 --> 02:14:41.399 then you get to a point where they're actually standing. 2405 02:14:41.079 --> 02:14:41.479 On their own. 2406 02:14:42.199 --> 02:14:44.880 But in this case, it turned out Malachi ended up 2407 02:14:44.960 --> 02:14:48.760 using them for his own political purposes and that really 2408 02:14:48.920 --> 02:14:50.279 ruined the unit's reputation. 2409 02:14:50.640 --> 02:14:53.319 It did for a while for you know, a couple 2410 02:14:53.359 --> 02:14:53.880 of years. 2411 02:14:54.119 --> 02:15:00.319 Melachi, who really helped, in my opinion, is one of 2412 02:15:00.359 --> 02:15:04.640 these central causes of the second what I would call 2413 02:15:04.720 --> 02:15:08.039 the second Idaki Civil War. This is the civil war 2414 02:15:08.079 --> 02:15:12.319 that not from like six to nine. It's really from 2415 02:15:12.359 --> 02:15:20.000 about you know, twelve to you know, ISIS is really 2416 02:15:20.039 --> 02:15:24.359 part of it because everyone buys into ISIS because they're like, 2417 02:15:24.880 --> 02:15:27.000 you know, yeah, fuck this guy, fuck this guy. 2418 02:15:27.079 --> 02:15:29.319 And you know, the Shia. 2419 02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:34.119 Malichi was literally going down the list of the sons 2420 02:15:34.119 --> 02:15:38.399 of Iraq of you know, the Sahua individuals and arresting 2421 02:15:38.439 --> 02:15:41.840 them off their list because you know, he's like, oh, well, 2422 02:15:42.199 --> 02:15:50.119 you know they're al Kada, and because you know, when 2423 02:15:50.159 --> 02:15:56.920 Malachi came in, he he flooded the ice off with 2424 02:15:57.239 --> 02:16:00.960 more Shia candidates and it was it's this weird dynamic 2425 02:16:01.039 --> 02:16:04.479 where the unit would push back a little bit, but 2426 02:16:04.560 --> 02:16:07.239 they couldn't push back completely because if they did, then 2427 02:16:07.239 --> 02:16:10.279 they'd get fired, right, So it's this weird dynamic where 2428 02:16:10.279 --> 02:16:11.920 they're trying to pick what is the amount that I 2429 02:16:11.920 --> 02:16:14.119 can push back without and they've been you know, some 2430 02:16:14.279 --> 02:16:19.560 jail somewhere, and eventually, you know, they it comes to 2431 02:16:19.600 --> 02:16:22.560 the point where the ICEO off is being used to 2432 02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:26.560 like arrest political opponents for a couple of years while 2433 02:16:26.600 --> 02:16:32.559 Malachi's in power, and they get this reputation as Fedaene Malachi, 2434 02:16:34.239 --> 02:16:39.559 which is you know, like fadin is like fighters, guirrill, fighters, resistors, 2435 02:16:40.600 --> 02:16:46.639 and the Fedaine were originally Saddam's fadeen and so they 2436 02:16:46.639 --> 02:16:50.879 had this reputation. But then like when the whole twenty 2437 02:16:50.920 --> 02:16:55.440 fourteen dash isis blew up and they saved the nation 2438 02:16:56.600 --> 02:17:00.760 and Maliki got punted out, you know, find and some 2439 02:17:00.840 --> 02:17:03.000 of that was the US stepping in and saying like, look, 2440 02:17:03.639 --> 02:17:05.840 you're gone, man, We're not going to support. 2441 02:17:05.399 --> 02:17:10.360 You being you know, the PM anymore. When as soon 2442 02:17:10.360 --> 02:17:13.920 as he's gone. The I saw many of those. 2443 02:17:14.159 --> 02:17:18.120 Cultural habits that they had been trained with, they defaulted 2444 02:17:18.159 --> 02:17:22.280 back to them. They expunged a bunch of the incompetency officers, 2445 02:17:22.680 --> 02:17:25.879 they brought back in a more balance, and so like 2446 02:17:26.079 --> 02:17:28.559 by like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, when they're starting to 2447 02:17:28.600 --> 02:17:31.200 do assessments again of like, okay, well what is the 2448 02:17:31.239 --> 02:17:35.159 breakdown now, it's almost back to like, you know, the 2449 02:17:35.440 --> 02:17:38.719 two thousand. What's no, that's awesome, it's almost back to 2450 02:17:39.000 --> 02:17:40.319 the same democratic I. 2451 02:17:41.079 --> 02:17:44.239 Want to ask you because so I wrote in this 2452 02:17:44.319 --> 02:17:47.760 book the whole chapter about the SIF, and we haven't 2453 02:17:47.760 --> 02:17:51.840 really mentioned them in this discussion thus far. But you mentioned, 2454 02:17:51.879 --> 02:17:54.760 for instance that IOF continued to fight while the rest 2455 02:17:54.799 --> 02:17:56.719 of the Iraqi Army basically dissolved. 2456 02:17:57.639 --> 02:17:59.639 The SIF was involved in training the LRR. 2457 02:18:00.360 --> 02:18:04.319 Yeah, they were down in Columbia training their hostage rescue 2458 02:18:04.479 --> 02:18:08.479 you know, national asset down there. What do you think 2459 02:18:08.479 --> 02:18:11.280 about the SIF being kind of disbanded and turned into 2460 02:18:11.360 --> 02:18:15.360 a different sort of capability, Like, I mean, I'm just curious, 2461 02:18:15.399 --> 02:18:18.120 you know, based on your research and your experience as 2462 02:18:18.120 --> 02:18:19.559 an s F officer, like, was. 2463 02:18:19.559 --> 02:18:22.079 That the right decision was that a bad decision. Did 2464 02:18:22.120 --> 02:18:24.520 the SIF have a lot of value added that we've lost? 2465 02:18:24.639 --> 02:18:26.040 I mean, what do you think about that? So? 2466 02:18:26.680 --> 02:18:28.879 You know, so I had a lot of friends in 2467 02:18:29.200 --> 02:18:31.440 A one to five because obviously you know I was 2468 02:18:31.719 --> 02:18:34.399 right downstairs, and even when I was a team leader, 2469 02:18:34.440 --> 02:18:38.319 there are two stairs downstairs, right so Joe Canella, Rick 2470 02:18:38.399 --> 02:18:43.639 Frazier and all these you know, great dudes, Dean Franks 2471 02:18:44.719 --> 02:18:48.040 who who ran A one five and. 2472 02:18:48.120 --> 02:18:49.479 Ran a great organization. 2473 02:18:52.319 --> 02:18:56.159 I think disbanding the SITH you you lose a really 2474 02:18:56.600 --> 02:19:01.920 good capability. But the challenge, I think is that and 2475 02:19:01.959 --> 02:19:05.280 this may be controversial, and it may piss off some 2476 02:19:05.360 --> 02:19:07.639 of the old A one to five or other stiff guys. 2477 02:19:09.120 --> 02:19:12.360 The the SIFT probably was never going to be used 2478 02:19:12.360 --> 02:19:15.760 for traditional for its intended function right right, to be 2479 02:19:15.879 --> 02:19:18.399 a backup to the US National Mission Force to do 2480 02:19:18.440 --> 02:19:21.600 hostage rescue when they weren't available. The chances of them 2481 02:19:21.600 --> 02:19:25.680 doing that mission is highly unlikely. But what they were 2482 02:19:26.079 --> 02:19:31.639 amazing at was building these National Mission Forces doing ct FED, 2483 02:19:32.120 --> 02:19:35.920 exactly doing ct FIT And if you look at it, 2484 02:19:36.040 --> 02:19:39.520 you know, time after time, the CIS fingerprints are all 2485 02:19:39.559 --> 02:19:43.600 over these high end units that are successful and successful 2486 02:19:43.639 --> 02:19:47.559 at being host nation national mission forces capable of doing 2487 02:19:47.600 --> 02:19:50.920 hostage rescue missions like the RUT Like Reaction Regiment does, 2488 02:19:51.440 --> 02:19:53.360 like the IESOFT. 2489 02:19:52.840 --> 02:19:53.639 Does on occasion. 2490 02:19:55.280 --> 02:20:00.000 You know, these the skills that they had, they rarely 2491 02:20:00.159 --> 02:20:04.000 actually use them other than transferring them to host nation forces. 2492 02:20:04.120 --> 02:20:05.680 Right, and that's what they're really good at. 2493 02:20:06.399 --> 02:20:11.159 Out of curiosity, you know, you mentioned like ICEOFT and 2494 02:20:12.120 --> 02:20:16.639 this massive battle with Daisha isis you know, we talk 2495 02:20:16.719 --> 02:20:19.719 about Alsavador and Colombia and these units. 2496 02:20:19.879 --> 02:20:24.319 What is it about? 2497 02:20:25.360 --> 02:20:28.959 Because it's one thing for them to behave and perform 2498 02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:32.280 in a certain way when American advisors are. 2499 02:20:32.159 --> 02:20:38.600 Attached, right, very true, but you're talking about the advisors 2500 02:20:38.639 --> 02:20:43.600 have left YEA, and these units sometimes not necessarily with 2501 02:20:43.639 --> 02:20:47.760 like Columbia, but maybe with you know, the ice offt In. 2502 02:20:47.799 --> 02:20:52.120 Spite of cultural norms, in spite of what happens with 2503 02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:55.000 the rest of the military, in spite of they still 2504 02:20:55.360 --> 02:20:58.879 maintain I want to say sort of that American is 2505 02:20:58.959 --> 02:21:02.879 spree accor right, They still culture. They still like have 2506 02:21:03.040 --> 02:21:06.120 that that culture that that binds them together and and 2507 02:21:06.280 --> 02:21:08.840 gives them a sense of right and wrong and and. 2508 02:21:09.440 --> 02:21:13.280 Sense of mission. Right, what what is it? How is 2509 02:21:13.479 --> 02:21:18.479 that passed on. How is that germinated and and fostered, 2510 02:21:18.879 --> 02:21:19.319 and then. 2511 02:21:19.280 --> 02:21:24.520 Even when Americans leave, these units are still an echo 2512 02:21:24.840 --> 02:21:27.079 of those American ideals. 2513 02:21:27.559 --> 02:21:30.040 I think it's in some ways it's a transference of culture. 2514 02:21:31.000 --> 02:21:35.319 And how it happens. I think there's there's a couple factors. 2515 02:21:35.879 --> 02:21:40.639 One is that there's a long term partnership. And it's 2516 02:21:40.680 --> 02:21:43.200 not like particularly what we did with a lot of Iraqi, 2517 02:21:43.239 --> 02:21:46.760 Africa African units, where we would show up, we work 2518 02:21:46.799 --> 02:21:49.239 with them for six months and then they'd be trained 2519 02:21:49.639 --> 02:21:52.799 right and they wouldn't need advisors. Again, you don't pass 2520 02:21:52.879 --> 02:21:56.760 culture on in six months like you know, that's that's 2521 02:21:56.799 --> 02:21:58.319 a decade or more. 2522 02:21:59.600 --> 02:22:00.200 Project. 2523 02:22:00.799 --> 02:22:04.399 So that's one component of it is it's a long term, consistent, 2524 02:22:05.479 --> 02:22:06.719 you know connections. 2525 02:22:07.399 --> 02:22:10.879 Second is leadership matters most. 2526 02:22:11.520 --> 02:22:16.680 And helping pick the right host nation leadership, either directly 2527 02:22:17.440 --> 02:22:22.360 as we did in the ICEOFT or indirectly as we 2528 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:26.680 maybe help nudge things along or helped individual's. 2529 02:22:26.200 --> 02:22:28.360 Careers or whatever. 2530 02:22:29.000 --> 02:22:33.239 That makes a huge impact because you know, those individuals 2531 02:22:33.280 --> 02:22:36.840 then pass on that culture to the units, and rather 2532 02:22:36.920 --> 02:22:39.479 than a corrupt culture, they're passing on a culture that 2533 02:22:39.559 --> 02:22:43.120 we have selected that we think is closer to ours, 2534 02:22:43.159 --> 02:22:46.360 I think, and not culture meaning like American culture, but 2535 02:22:46.479 --> 02:22:52.920 just like viable military cultural norms of the warrior ethos. 2536 02:22:53.000 --> 02:22:57.959 How you get promoted, How you get promoted, professionalism, you know, 2537 02:22:58.360 --> 02:23:03.719 proper civil multi relations or spect lack of corruption, you know, 2538 02:23:03.920 --> 02:23:06.000 taking care of your soldiers, leading. 2539 02:23:05.760 --> 02:23:07.280 From the front, all that stuff. 2540 02:23:10.600 --> 02:23:11.680 You kind of have leadership. 2541 02:23:11.719 --> 02:23:12.799 You've got to kick the right leaders. 2542 02:23:12.879 --> 02:23:17.760 So outside of you know, special forces and you know 2543 02:23:18.920 --> 02:23:21.680 anybody else who's doing you know, FID seals when they 2544 02:23:21.799 --> 02:23:23.159 you know, when the money is, you know, when they 2545 02:23:23.159 --> 02:23:24.079 want the money or whatever. 2546 02:23:24.399 --> 02:23:26.879 But don't get me started. 2547 02:23:27.600 --> 02:23:32.120 But outside of you know, special forces going in and 2548 02:23:32.159 --> 02:23:36.639 teaching these commando skills, has the army overlooked the idea 2549 02:23:36.920 --> 02:23:42.799 of senior leaders, whether senior enlisted or senior or not 2550 02:23:42.959 --> 02:23:49.360 senior officers, but senior enlisted and officers creating that sort 2551 02:23:49.440 --> 02:23:54.159 of FID capability from a leadership point of view, with 2552 02:23:54.159 --> 02:23:59.719 with like the Iraqi Army or with armies with trying 2553 02:23:59.760 --> 02:24:03.639 to teach that culture at the top so that it 2554 02:24:03.680 --> 02:24:04.440 filters down. 2555 02:24:05.440 --> 02:24:05.959 Yeah. 2556 02:24:06.000 --> 02:24:11.399 So there is one quote from the Iraq War study 2557 02:24:11.440 --> 02:24:14.760 that really stood out to me, and it went something 2558 02:24:14.799 --> 02:24:17.840 along the lines of in Iraq. 2559 02:24:19.319 --> 02:24:21.399 You know, we had all of the. 2560 02:24:21.319 --> 02:24:25.920 Guns and money to influence the Iraqi military, its creation, 2561 02:24:26.239 --> 02:24:31.360 it's leadership, it's ethos, and we used neither. And for 2562 02:24:31.399 --> 02:24:34.879 some weird reason, you know, like the money troth kept 2563 02:24:34.879 --> 02:24:41.040 going mostly right, and the weapons troth kept going in 2564 02:24:41.079 --> 02:24:47.440 that we very rarely really threw down and said no, like, 2565 02:24:48.280 --> 02:24:51.799 this guy is a sectarian thug and he's not going 2566 02:24:51.879 --> 02:24:56.159 to be He should not be leading any units whatsoever. 2567 02:24:56.360 --> 02:24:56.600 Right. 2568 02:24:57.959 --> 02:25:00.920 I mean, I could even give you a personal account 2569 02:25:01.120 --> 02:25:02.479 of my time there. 2570 02:25:03.120 --> 02:25:07.840 Where the one. 2571 02:25:06.959 --> 02:25:11.479 Uh Tony Soprano, the Sikh. 2572 02:25:11.520 --> 02:25:15.120 At Mamour, the shake of Shakespeare. Yeah, who, I don't. 2573 02:25:14.920 --> 02:25:17.239 Know what happened to him. Actually he posts you know 2574 02:25:17.399 --> 02:25:22.559 twenty fourteen the previous unit that had worked with him. 2575 02:25:24.159 --> 02:25:26.879 I mean, in a on a positive note, you know, 2576 02:25:26.920 --> 02:25:29.520 he is Tony Soprano. He's a thug, so he fights. 2577 02:25:30.200 --> 02:25:35.280 But he was horribly corrupt, right, and skimmed huge amounts 2578 02:25:35.280 --> 02:25:36.319 from his soldiers. 2579 02:25:36.879 --> 02:25:40.799 He was and he was a thug to the point of. 2580 02:25:42.360 --> 02:25:47.360 Dangerous to the civilian population, and to the point where. 2581 02:25:49.680 --> 02:25:55.680 You know, he had hooked ratchet straps up to. 2582 02:25:57.239 --> 02:26:02.360 A Iraqi insurgent that they had captured, who was still 2583 02:26:02.399 --> 02:26:05.680 alive and then drug him behind. This is rotation before 2584 02:26:05.760 --> 02:26:13.559 us drug him behind till he died. You know, I 2585 02:26:13.639 --> 02:26:16.760 tried to get him replaced because I was like, this 2586 02:26:16.799 --> 02:26:19.200 guy is we do not want to work with this guy. 2587 02:26:19.239 --> 02:26:23.799 And are the team leader, the team sergeant, the whole 2588 02:26:23.840 --> 02:26:26.040 team is like, this dude is bad. 2589 02:26:26.200 --> 02:26:27.760 We do not want to work with this guy. We 2590 02:26:27.799 --> 02:26:28.799 need to find someone else. 2591 02:26:29.600 --> 02:26:33.920 And so we'd even worked through and all this so 2592 02:26:34.000 --> 02:26:36.639 much had happened before, in like that November four period, 2593 02:26:36.959 --> 02:26:38.959 or he had fought, he'd been one of the few 2594 02:26:39.040 --> 02:26:42.719 that fought that they'd kind of gotten Stockholm syndrome. With 2595 02:26:42.799 --> 02:26:49.280 me and so my team I representing them, I put 2596 02:26:49.280 --> 02:26:51.280 together the packet to try to get rid of this guy. 2597 02:26:51.959 --> 02:26:55.559 We even had the point where we had talked to 2598 02:26:55.600 --> 02:26:58.159 this guy buttering him up, you know, like a man. 2599 02:26:58.200 --> 02:27:00.799 You are so brave, you're so awesome, and we've heard 2600 02:27:00.799 --> 02:27:03.440 these stories about you dragon, you know, the dude behind 2601 02:27:03.680 --> 02:27:04.799 We heard there were photos. 2602 02:27:05.159 --> 02:27:08.280 You know, do you have photos? Oh? Yes, I have photos. 2603 02:27:08.360 --> 02:27:09.799 Here, let me show you. 2604 02:27:09.799 --> 02:27:13.399 You know, I mean there's photos, like have copies of those. 2605 02:27:13.440 --> 02:27:15.479 Whould love to show them to our friends, you know, 2606 02:27:15.559 --> 02:27:18.120 And so we literally had photos of him doing this. 2607 02:27:18.639 --> 02:27:22.639 So did you try to do this through the laky bedding? 2608 02:27:23.959 --> 02:27:25.360 No, I just tried to do it through the regular 2609 02:27:25.440 --> 02:27:29.079 chain of command. So like company command, our team leader 2610 02:27:29.239 --> 02:27:33.319 to company commander, tiling commander goes up somewhere to the ethos. 2611 02:27:34.760 --> 02:27:37.360 Conventional guys get very angry at the soft guy goes 2612 02:27:37.440 --> 02:27:39.200 up to the death star, goes up to the death. 2613 02:27:39.079 --> 02:27:42.520 Star somewhere, and then it comes pouring back down of Hey, Frank, 2614 02:27:42.559 --> 02:27:45.479 what are you doing there pissing off the conventional guys. 2615 02:27:45.479 --> 02:27:48.200 You're working with the artillery guys. 2616 02:27:48.600 --> 02:27:50.040 And I mean it was even to the point where 2617 02:27:50.280 --> 02:27:53.440 when with the photo that we had gotten from the 2618 02:27:53.479 --> 02:27:57.079 team guys from the rotation before us, I actually posted 2619 02:27:57.120 --> 02:27:59.680 that next to you know, the infamous photo of the 2620 02:28:00.200 --> 02:28:04.040 and there is definitely a backstory to the Vietnam you 2621 02:28:04.079 --> 02:28:05.479 know where he's executing the prisoner. 2622 02:28:05.559 --> 02:28:05.959 Oh yeah. 2623 02:28:06.159 --> 02:28:09.559 But my point was the political impact of that right 2624 02:28:09.600 --> 02:28:12.520 on the war. I was like, what happens when this 2625 02:28:12.600 --> 02:28:13.040 comes out? 2626 02:28:13.760 --> 02:28:14.000 Right? 2627 02:28:14.120 --> 02:28:17.360 Totally fair port And and my battalion commander, totally, to 2628 02:28:17.479 --> 02:28:22.120 his great credit, he absolutely supported me. He's like, Frank, 2629 02:28:22.200 --> 02:28:24.680 you're totally right. I am going to support you. I'm 2630 02:28:24.719 --> 02:28:27.360 going to support your team. He took the fight up 2631 02:28:27.399 --> 02:28:31.000 somewhere into the ethos and came back like, no, dude's 2632 02:28:31.000 --> 02:28:34.559 going to stay in with If I recall correctly, kind 2633 02:28:34.600 --> 02:28:37.920 of the it was basically that they kind of become 2634 02:28:37.920 --> 02:28:40.719 almost like Stockholm syndrome that they've been through this, Like 2635 02:28:41.000 --> 02:28:45.000 November four was a really really bad time, like they're 2636 02:28:45.040 --> 02:28:45.799 dropping jade down. 2637 02:28:45.959 --> 02:28:49.079 Like the word the word that always gets used to 2638 02:28:50.440 --> 02:28:52.639 avoid or excuse why you. 2639 02:28:52.639 --> 02:28:56.159 Can't do the right thing is equities have equities, which 2640 02:28:56.200 --> 02:28:56.920 is so weird. 2641 02:28:57.719 --> 02:29:02.360 Which is so weird because in other countries, when it's 2642 02:29:02.559 --> 02:29:07.479 a soft, pure mission, they'll be like, like they'll come 2643 02:29:07.520 --> 02:29:11.440 down on you guys for the smallest human rights human 2644 02:29:11.479 --> 02:29:14.840 rights violation that the guys that you didn't even go 2645 02:29:14.920 --> 02:29:16.520 out with commit. 2646 02:29:16.840 --> 02:29:21.120 Oh yeah, it's crazy, absolutely absolutely, And you know, so 2647 02:29:21.399 --> 02:29:27.440 it was just like, well, let's uh, you know, I 2648 02:29:27.440 --> 02:29:28.639 don't want to keep all night. 2649 02:29:28.719 --> 02:29:30.440 No, it's okay, this is a great conversation. 2650 02:29:31.319 --> 02:29:32.799 Thank you for so deep into it. 2651 02:29:33.559 --> 02:29:35.479 I'm just trying to, you know, make sure that we 2652 02:29:35.799 --> 02:29:36.639 we cover it all. 2653 02:29:37.079 --> 02:29:40.200 So the last case study in your book, Afghanistan, again 2654 02:29:40.639 --> 02:29:45.959 widely different culture terrain, the auspices under which were there 2655 02:29:46.040 --> 02:29:50.040 very different. And also the auspices under which we stood 2656 02:29:50.120 --> 02:29:54.680 up the Afghan Special Operations capability was quite different than Iraq, 2657 02:29:55.040 --> 02:29:59.319 very different. Start talking to us about the KANDACT commandos, 2658 02:29:59.360 --> 02:30:02.520 how that comes about and how that partner relationship develops. 2659 02:30:03.040 --> 02:30:03.639 Yeah, so it. 2660 02:30:03.600 --> 02:30:08.280 Comes about unlike at Ack where the ICEOFT with the 2661 02:30:08.280 --> 02:30:13.280 commandos and the ICTF, you know, the invasion, it's. 2662 02:30:14.920 --> 02:30:17.559 Seven eight months after the invasion. 2663 02:30:17.440 --> 02:30:22.879 That the the the initial seeds of the ICEOFT are 2664 02:30:23.479 --> 02:30:28.479 being started to be created. In Afghanistan, it's like four 2665 02:30:28.639 --> 02:30:33.200 years after and after the the you know that the 2666 02:30:33.239 --> 02:30:37.120 Taliban had been kicked out of power and couple and 2667 02:30:37.200 --> 02:30:40.680 by that point, the whole premise of like host nation 2668 02:30:40.840 --> 02:30:43.360 sovereignty and that they're like there are things we can 2669 02:30:43.600 --> 02:30:46.920 and can't do, you know, as Americans, and this is 2670 02:30:46.959 --> 02:30:49.600 their you know kind of area, and this is our area, 2671 02:30:50.200 --> 02:30:52.479 so like we're not going to overstep our bounds because 2672 02:30:52.479 --> 02:30:57.319 this is their host nation sovereignty had developed and so 2673 02:30:57.879 --> 02:31:01.840 it became very difficult to kind of like really push 2674 02:31:02.040 --> 02:31:07.000 or force things. And so unlike with the ice OFF, 2675 02:31:07.280 --> 02:31:12.360 with the Afghan commandos, when they have a selection, almost everyone. 2676 02:31:12.040 --> 02:31:15.520 Passes you know, their. 2677 02:31:17.360 --> 02:31:21.639 Little ability to select leaders for it. They don't have 2678 02:31:21.680 --> 02:31:24.479 the ability to kind of command it. And battle pay 2679 02:31:24.600 --> 02:31:27.639 is different. Their pay is more than the rest of 2680 02:31:27.360 --> 02:31:31.520 the army, but they're not generally like doing it out 2681 02:31:31.559 --> 02:31:35.479 like the situation in Iraq where you literally the paymaster 2682 02:31:35.600 --> 02:31:38.159 is an American at the beginning to kind of like 2683 02:31:38.360 --> 02:31:41.239 treat teach them almost the right way to do it, 2684 02:31:41.280 --> 02:31:42.760 and then transition. 2685 02:31:44.120 --> 02:31:46.239 By the time you know it starts. 2686 02:31:45.840 --> 02:31:50.159 Well, you know, quarter of the war is over almost already, 2687 02:31:50.200 --> 02:31:52.239 or you know, twenty percent of the war is over already, 2688 02:31:52.479 --> 02:31:56.239 and so it really limits our ability to make changes 2689 02:31:56.280 --> 02:31:59.520 within the unit to kind of like a lot, you know, 2690 02:32:00.799 --> 02:32:05.879 force the unit to be created in our image. At 2691 02:32:05.879 --> 02:32:09.559 the same time, there are challenges on the US side 2692 02:32:09.840 --> 02:32:15.559 with consistency in that one of the you know, Afghan 2693 02:32:15.600 --> 02:32:21.440 guys advisors SF guys described it as we were chasing 2694 02:32:21.479 --> 02:32:25.040 bright and shiny objects where even on the soft side 2695 02:32:25.079 --> 02:32:28.639 we basically replicated the conventional side, where you know, as 2696 02:32:28.639 --> 02:32:33.520 you said, we're fighting one year wars twenty of them 2697 02:32:34.520 --> 02:32:38.200 and every two years. On the soft side, we have 2698 02:32:38.319 --> 02:32:42.719 this weird change on our partner force where we go 2699 02:32:42.760 --> 02:32:46.479 from the commandos to the Afghan National Army special forces, 2700 02:32:47.079 --> 02:32:51.000 to the police force, to the Afghan local police, to 2701 02:32:51.280 --> 02:32:55.159 the village stability operations, you know, and it keeps change. 2702 02:32:55.159 --> 02:32:58.479 When you look at the like Afghanistan, just look at 2703 02:32:58.520 --> 02:33:02.079 like the Afghanistan Special and Paramilitary and on all these 2704 02:33:02.079 --> 02:33:05.280 like weird SAPs and stuff. My impression of it is 2705 02:33:05.280 --> 02:33:07.399 that it's about ten times more confusing than. 2706 02:33:07.280 --> 02:33:09.879 What we did in South Vietnam. Yes, which is a 2707 02:33:09.920 --> 02:33:13.159 little confusing, Yes, which is very confusing in itself, But. 2708 02:33:13.159 --> 02:33:15.840 The stuff in Afghanistan is like, it's mind boggling. 2709 02:33:16.000 --> 02:33:16.719 It's crazy. 2710 02:33:16.920 --> 02:33:19.840 Yeah, Like there's no unity of effort because we keep 2711 02:33:19.920 --> 02:33:22.680 changing things. It's like it's like someone with ADHD is 2712 02:33:22.680 --> 02:33:23.360 like in charge. 2713 02:33:23.520 --> 02:33:25.200 Like, no, that's that's a good point. That's why I 2714 02:33:25.239 --> 02:33:26.959 think about like that. It's nuts. 2715 02:33:27.959 --> 02:33:30.559 But where where was that coming from? Was that coming 2716 02:33:30.680 --> 02:33:35.159 from theater the like the theater commander. Was that coming 2717 02:33:35.239 --> 02:33:40.319 from the theater soft commanders? Because obviously No. E seven 2718 02:33:40.440 --> 02:33:41.399 is making that decision? 2719 02:33:41.479 --> 02:33:44.239 No way, right, these sevens are picking pulling their hair 2720 02:33:44.280 --> 02:33:46.479 out right, They can't believe how stupid the decisions are. 2721 02:33:49.239 --> 02:33:54.680 The the general sense was that in many cases it 2722 02:33:54.760 --> 02:33:58.520 came from either the group that was rotating as the 2723 02:33:58.600 --> 02:34:05.840 jujitsta had or as the theater soft headquarters as you know, 2724 02:34:05.840 --> 02:34:08.399 as the point when a theater soft headquarters was stood 2725 02:34:08.479 --> 02:34:14.520 up over the group headquarters that those because it was 2726 02:34:14.680 --> 02:34:19.000 weird in many ways. It's almost like weird, there's a 2727 02:34:19.040 --> 02:34:22.639 two year time period is done, and now we've got 2728 02:34:22.639 --> 02:34:23.879 a new partner for us. 2729 02:34:26.079 --> 02:34:27.120 Wonder what the. 2730 02:34:27.079 --> 02:34:32.000 Correlation is there, you know, meaning basically that somebody's command tenure, 2731 02:34:32.840 --> 02:34:35.920 they've now rotated out, somebody else rotates. 2732 02:34:35.559 --> 02:34:37.799 In, and they got to leave their mark on it. 2733 02:34:37.920 --> 02:34:39.799 They want to leave their mark. They've got a new pet. 2734 02:34:39.719 --> 02:34:42.559 Rock, do you you know? 2735 02:34:42.600 --> 02:34:47.360 We talked a little bit about GAT veterans contempt for 2736 02:34:47.440 --> 02:34:52.680 general officers and why that is. Do you feel as 2737 02:34:52.680 --> 02:34:57.000 though there's an argument it's kind of impractical because of 2738 02:34:57.079 --> 02:35:00.239 how you know that they gain rankers eff, but do 2739 02:35:00.239 --> 02:35:05.120 you feel there is an argument for when you start 2740 02:35:05.159 --> 02:35:08.959 a war, it's your war until it's over. 2741 02:35:10.360 --> 02:35:15.760 That was actually one of our challenging conclusions in the 2742 02:35:15.760 --> 02:35:21.600 Iraq War study in that you know, there war two veterans, 2743 02:35:22.000 --> 02:35:25.440 that it was the war from the beginning to end. 2744 02:35:26.239 --> 02:35:29.159 The challenge with that is the all volunteer force, right 2745 02:35:29.840 --> 02:35:31.920 and I mean there are ways that you can kind 2746 02:35:31.959 --> 02:35:35.399 of perhaps get away or get around it where if 2747 02:35:35.440 --> 02:35:37.959 you actually return the same units to the same theater. 2748 02:35:38.520 --> 02:35:41.440 I mean, we did this bizarre stuff in Afghanistean. We 2749 02:35:41.479 --> 02:35:44.319 did the same thing in soft where their NCOs were 2750 02:35:44.360 --> 02:35:48.440 like it was insane, Like I requested to go back 2751 02:35:48.479 --> 02:35:51.959 to the same commando KANDAC and I never did, like 2752 02:35:53.719 --> 02:35:56.239 you know, but the conventional Force was just as bad 2753 02:35:56.319 --> 02:35:59.520 or even worse, where they didn't return the same division 2754 02:36:00.159 --> 02:36:02.760 to the same theater. They put a division that had 2755 02:36:03.159 --> 02:36:05.200 you know, been to Afghanistan, they throw it into a 2756 02:36:05.280 --> 02:36:08.760 rock and they're relearning everything from scratch. 2757 02:36:08.440 --> 02:36:09.680 Because this is totally different environment. 2758 02:36:09.760 --> 02:36:14.360 What about on a geo level to say, hey, if 2759 02:36:14.440 --> 02:36:17.239 you want ownership of this war, you have ownership of 2760 02:36:17.239 --> 02:36:21.000 this war and it's all on you. Yeah, like you 2761 02:36:21.040 --> 02:36:23.680 don't get out, you don't get out after two years 2762 02:36:23.840 --> 02:36:27.280 and say, well they just failed to carry on my vision. 2763 02:36:28.559 --> 02:36:29.040 Yeah. 2764 02:36:29.760 --> 02:36:35.840 General Casey actually commanded from June oh four until I 2765 02:36:35.879 --> 02:36:41.079 think it was like February of seven. And you know, 2766 02:36:41.440 --> 02:36:43.559 it's a pretty long tenure. It's not a year tenure, 2767 02:36:43.600 --> 02:36:44.959 it's I think it's three hund years. 2768 02:36:45.000 --> 02:36:50.600 Yeah, yeah, and The challenge was is he was one 2769 02:36:50.639 --> 02:36:54.520 of the ones who was pushing the transition strategy, and 2770 02:36:54.760 --> 02:36:55.120 I think he. 2771 02:36:55.159 --> 02:36:57.600 Really was a true believer. But I mean I went 2772 02:36:57.600 --> 02:36:58.520 in like thinking like. 2773 02:36:58.479 --> 02:37:01.159 Oh this, When I interview these guys, they're going to 2774 02:37:01.239 --> 02:37:04.879 be like, yeah, uh, you know. I gave my best 2775 02:37:04.879 --> 02:37:07.399 military advice and then the politicians told me to do 2776 02:37:07.440 --> 02:37:09.040 it and I saluted and drove on. 2777 02:37:09.680 --> 02:37:09.799 No. 2778 02:37:09.959 --> 02:37:11.319 They were like, this is. 2779 02:37:11.319 --> 02:37:11.959 The right idea. 2780 02:37:12.079 --> 02:37:13.600 We should have done this all along, We should have 2781 02:37:13.680 --> 02:37:16.280 just totally left. And it proved me right, you know 2782 02:37:16.319 --> 02:37:18.639 that the wrecking army collapsed and I was like, wow, 2783 02:37:19.360 --> 02:37:20.079 oh so much. 2784 02:37:20.799 --> 02:37:25.040 Yeah. So the flip side of that, the challenge is 2785 02:37:25.120 --> 02:37:29.000 if you get the right geo right, great. 2786 02:37:29.719 --> 02:37:33.079 If you don't get the right geo, you are totally screwed. 2787 02:37:33.639 --> 02:37:36.079 And one of the challenges, to be very honest, I 2788 02:37:36.120 --> 02:37:41.520 think in civil military relations and post volunteer army is 2789 02:37:42.479 --> 02:37:43.600 we don't fire a lot. 2790 02:37:43.440 --> 02:37:46.399 Of generals, right, we don't fire enough generals. We don't 2791 02:37:46.399 --> 02:37:48.760 fire we almost fire no jump right right. 2792 02:37:48.959 --> 02:37:52.719 We have this sort of like cultural inclination towards like 2793 02:37:52.920 --> 02:37:56.200 worship of this like unique singular individual who's going to 2794 02:37:56.280 --> 02:37:57.559 save us with his brilliance. 2795 02:37:58.600 --> 02:37:59.479 That's not really how. 2796 02:37:59.479 --> 02:38:03.440 It we're Yeah, I think in some ways it's also 2797 02:38:03.680 --> 02:38:09.079 worse when your senior civilian leaders believe it, believe it, 2798 02:38:09.159 --> 02:38:13.239 but also have little or no military experience, like when 2799 02:38:13.280 --> 02:38:16.040 they've never served, or if they've been you know, their 2800 02:38:16.120 --> 02:38:21.040 National Guard for what six months or whatever or zero 2801 02:38:21.440 --> 02:38:27.520 like zero. It takes a really strong person like an 2802 02:38:27.600 --> 02:38:31.280 FDR or a Lincoln to be like, hey, McClellan, guess 2803 02:38:31.280 --> 02:38:34.159 what you're fired next, commander. I mean, think about like 2804 02:38:34.159 --> 02:38:35.680 the number of senior commanders who went through in the 2805 02:38:35.680 --> 02:38:36.360 Civil War. 2806 02:38:36.440 --> 02:38:38.239 Until we found a good one. 2807 02:38:39.239 --> 02:38:40.159 So that's the model. 2808 02:38:40.440 --> 02:38:45.000 Sorry, the Kandak commandos, I mean, despite our very many 2809 02:38:45.040 --> 02:38:49.760 failings in Afghanistan, it's interesting again that it seems that 2810 02:38:50.000 --> 02:38:55.840 SF essentially accomplished their job, and even as Afghanistan was collapsing, 2811 02:38:56.280 --> 02:38:59.639 the commandos fought until their logistics lines. 2812 02:38:59.440 --> 02:39:01.799 Just crapped out out on them completely. And that's a. 2813 02:39:01.760 --> 02:39:04.840 Military failure, you know, to be clear, the military logistics 2814 02:39:04.840 --> 02:39:07.840 failed to get them the fuel, the ammunition, water, whatever 2815 02:39:08.479 --> 02:39:09.040 they needed. 2816 02:39:09.840 --> 02:39:12.520 But they did fight. Yeah, they did fight. 2817 02:39:12.600 --> 02:39:16.799 In many cases, they're what's happening or sending notes to 2818 02:39:16.879 --> 02:39:21.079 their posting on Facebook I need AMMO. I need fuel. 2819 02:39:21.319 --> 02:39:24.040 I'm willing to fight. Somebody get me ammo. Like this 2820 02:39:24.319 --> 02:39:27.440 crazy stuff like social media, right, like Twitter, Like I'm 2821 02:39:27.440 --> 02:39:29.000 at this location, send me AMMO. 2822 02:39:29.120 --> 02:39:31.879 I'll fight. We'll fight for AMO, right. 2823 02:39:32.239 --> 02:39:37.799 You know, uh where they did fight, and you know, 2824 02:39:38.559 --> 02:39:40.520 in many cases some of them were executed. 2825 02:39:40.559 --> 02:39:41.319 You know, they they. 2826 02:39:41.239 --> 02:39:44.440 Fought till they ran an ammunition and then the Taliban. 2827 02:39:44.120 --> 02:39:46.479 Executed every single one of them to like prove a point. 2828 02:39:47.639 --> 02:39:51.920 And I mean, despite our frictions and our challenges and 2829 02:39:51.959 --> 02:39:55.920 our mistakes, you know, we still ended up with a 2830 02:39:55.959 --> 02:39:56.719 partner for us. 2831 02:39:56.680 --> 02:40:00.000 That performed far better than the rest of the after military. 2832 02:40:00.639 --> 02:40:03.760 And the irony is that this is not a small force, right, 2833 02:40:04.040 --> 02:40:05.440 It's a division sized force. 2834 02:40:05.479 --> 02:40:06.760 There's like sixteen. 2835 02:40:06.440 --> 02:40:08.879 Thousand people in the Commandos by the time it's done, 2836 02:40:09.120 --> 02:40:09.920 so it's huge. 2837 02:40:09.959 --> 02:40:11.079 It's not this small force. 2838 02:40:11.120 --> 02:40:13.479 It's said it's like a fifth of the overall ANA. 2839 02:40:13.719 --> 02:40:16.479 Yeah, it's like a fifty overall ANA. But they're doing 2840 02:40:16.559 --> 02:40:19.680 like seventy percent of the fighting. They're larger than like 2841 02:40:19.840 --> 02:40:25.680 six NATO countries militaries like the commandos. So it's a 2842 02:40:25.680 --> 02:40:30.760 big force, but rit large. There was enough time and 2843 02:40:30.879 --> 02:40:34.680 impact even though it was with different individuals to create 2844 02:40:34.840 --> 02:40:41.479 enough of a culture that they fought. 2845 02:40:41.840 --> 02:40:46.360 So any final thoughts about the book before we move on. 2846 02:40:48.120 --> 02:40:50.479 I mean, I know there's a lot in here, you know. 2847 02:40:51.079 --> 02:40:53.280 I guess the biggest thing I would just say is, 2848 02:40:53.360 --> 02:40:57.200 you know, thanks to all of like the SSEF guys 2849 02:40:57.799 --> 02:41:02.000 and host nation forces and everyone, they just like poured 2850 02:41:02.040 --> 02:41:06.959 out their you know, life stories and sometimes there are 2851 02:41:06.959 --> 02:41:08.920 worse days that they of their life. 2852 02:41:09.040 --> 02:41:11.760 Yeah, you know that spent time with me. 2853 02:41:11.959 --> 02:41:14.239 I mean, time is our most precious resource, and they 2854 02:41:14.559 --> 02:41:17.079 spent a lot of time with me. And so I'm 2855 02:41:17.120 --> 02:41:19.639 just super thankful that so many people gave me so 2856 02:41:19.719 --> 02:41:23.360 much time and to let me and let me tell 2857 02:41:23.920 --> 02:41:28.280 their stories. Because there is some fucking amazing stories out there. 2858 02:41:29.799 --> 02:41:32.479 So Training for Victory it's available now. You guys can 2859 02:41:32.520 --> 02:41:35.000 go out and find it on Amazon or wherever books 2860 02:41:35.000 --> 02:41:38.680 are sold. Tell us about life after the book. What 2861 02:41:38.920 --> 02:41:40.040 are you up to nowadays? 2862 02:41:41.040 --> 02:41:41.479 Yeah? 2863 02:41:41.600 --> 02:41:46.040 So, so I am kind of a gig. 2864 02:41:45.799 --> 02:41:47.040 Economy for education. 2865 02:41:47.879 --> 02:41:53.120 So I do in the chair of a regular Warfare 2866 02:41:53.159 --> 02:41:57.440 studies at the Modern War Institute West Point, which means 2867 02:41:57.559 --> 02:42:02.559 I research and write. I'm fortunate I do everything from 2868 02:42:02.680 --> 02:42:08.760 insurgency to uh, you know, security, force assistance kind of 2869 02:42:08.799 --> 02:42:09.680 everything in between. 2870 02:42:10.600 --> 02:42:11.280 So it's fun. 2871 02:42:12.639 --> 02:42:15.799 To be very honest, I would far prefer to teach, 2872 02:42:17.200 --> 02:42:20.159 and this is gonna sound maybe a little weird, but 2873 02:42:20.159 --> 02:42:24.239 I would almost rather teach like civilians, like undergrads, like 2874 02:42:24.600 --> 02:42:32.760 particularly RTC kids, than military because man, they are so 2875 02:42:32.760 --> 02:42:35.639 so like I teach as an adjunct at Tufts University. 2876 02:42:35.959 --> 02:42:38.200 I teach a class called War Film and Politics, which 2877 02:42:38.280 --> 02:42:40.879 uses war films to kind of help understand the military 2878 02:42:40.920 --> 02:42:44.760 ethos and to understand how politics is inserted into films 2879 02:42:44.799 --> 02:42:48.559 we watch. I've taught a couple other courses there. I'm 2880 02:42:48.600 --> 02:42:51.840 also teaching a class in civil Military Relations the master's level. 2881 02:42:52.239 --> 02:42:54.440 They are in the fall, and. 2882 02:42:54.319 --> 02:42:57.719 I taught other classes like the class and Intelligence and Technology. 2883 02:42:58.079 --> 02:43:00.920 Taught that at JASOW. I thought it right in university. 2884 02:43:01.000 --> 02:43:07.319 It Urtzelia in Israel, so you know, I get around 2885 02:43:07.520 --> 02:43:11.079 kind of whatever is available to me. I much prefer 2886 02:43:11.319 --> 02:43:16.159 kind of a more stable kind of like particularly civilian. 2887 02:43:16.200 --> 02:43:23.879 It would be my dream opportunity, but it's it's challenging. 2888 02:43:25.399 --> 02:43:26.799 It's challenging being. 2889 02:43:26.680 --> 02:43:31.360 Fifty five because people look at you differently, particularly in 2890 02:43:31.360 --> 02:43:32.600 the academic world. 2891 02:43:33.680 --> 02:43:34.760 In the academic world. 2892 02:43:34.879 --> 02:43:36.639 Aren't you supposed to be like a seventy year old 2893 02:43:36.639 --> 02:43:39.200 professor that you just stay there forever and collect the 2894 02:43:39.479 --> 02:43:40.879 collect the paycheck. 2895 02:43:40.479 --> 02:43:41.479 Until they kick you out. 2896 02:43:41.799 --> 02:43:45.639 Yeah, is the most accurate thing about the latest Indiana 2897 02:43:45.719 --> 02:43:49.120 Jones movie with the Harrison Ford playing that still the 2898 02:43:49.159 --> 02:43:53.719 professor is still teaching, putting the transparencies up on the projector. 2899 02:43:53.239 --> 02:43:57.360 Like yeah, yeah. 2900 02:43:57.760 --> 02:44:01.799 So you know, getting into it late is hard because 2901 02:44:02.840 --> 02:44:05.600 in many cases they see it as publisher paris, you know, 2902 02:44:05.639 --> 02:44:09.120 as we were talking about before, and they want you 2903 02:44:09.200 --> 02:44:13.920 to publish a lot, in research a lot, and it's. 2904 02:44:13.760 --> 02:44:14.719 Almost like a timeline. 2905 02:44:14.760 --> 02:44:17.600 They're like, oh, well, you got twenty years left maybe 2906 02:44:18.440 --> 02:44:21.520 if that fifteen, whereas if we hire somebody who's thirty, 2907 02:44:21.760 --> 02:44:22.440 we can kind. 2908 02:44:22.280 --> 02:44:25.280 Of mold them in our image or are in our image. 2909 02:44:25.559 --> 02:44:28.520 And we have a lot. 2910 02:44:28.399 --> 02:44:31.200 More years of research and et cetera. 2911 02:44:32.079 --> 02:44:34.280 Yeah, what the crap? I wrote this fifteen hundred page 2912 02:44:34.280 --> 02:44:34.920 I RACK report. 2913 02:44:34.959 --> 02:44:35.440 What do you want? 2914 02:44:36.600 --> 02:44:37.079 Yeah? 2915 02:44:37.520 --> 02:44:38.840 There is also. 2916 02:44:40.120 --> 02:44:43.559 I think there is in some cases, some universities are 2917 02:44:43.639 --> 02:44:49.319 very most very friendly. You know, when I got my 2918 02:44:49.399 --> 02:44:54.440 PhD at Fletcher's School, Long Diplomacey at Tufts University, Medford Massachusetts. 2919 02:44:55.000 --> 02:44:57.879 When I was going there to like try to decide 2920 02:44:57.920 --> 02:45:00.840 where I was going to pick for my program, got 2921 02:45:00.840 --> 02:45:03.200 any elevator to go up to do an interview, and 2922 02:45:03.280 --> 02:45:04.639 there's like a flyer like. 2923 02:45:04.840 --> 02:45:08.520 Kind of celebrate the Marine Corps birthday. And I was like, Wow, 2924 02:45:08.680 --> 02:45:09.600 this place is like. 2925 02:45:10.399 --> 02:45:13.479 Pretty military friendly that they're like, you know, come out 2926 02:45:13.559 --> 02:45:16.120 cake for the Marine Corps birthday and they're celebrating it, right, 2927 02:45:16.479 --> 02:45:17.879 And so it was a really good fit for me 2928 02:45:17.959 --> 02:45:21.440 because they're like pretty military friendly. But there are other 2929 02:45:21.520 --> 02:45:25.799 institutions out there that are not very multi friendly that 2930 02:45:26.280 --> 02:45:30.799 you know, look at you like, you know, you're some 2931 02:45:30.840 --> 02:45:34.959 sort of barbarian, right chromagnon. 2932 02:45:34.399 --> 02:45:37.959 Yeah, you were over there killing brown people from Uncle Sam. Yeah, 2933 02:45:38.040 --> 02:45:38.959 and which is. 2934 02:45:40.639 --> 02:45:44.879 Who misunderstanding of what we were doing? Yeah, total misunderstanding 2935 02:45:44.879 --> 02:45:48.000 of what our ethos is. Yeah, total misunderstanding is like 2936 02:45:48.120 --> 02:45:49.879 why many of us joined the military. 2937 02:45:50.079 --> 02:45:53.159 It's I think, I mean, if you're twenty two in 2938 02:45:53.239 --> 02:45:56.159 saying that, okay, if you're like forty in saying that, 2939 02:45:56.200 --> 02:45:58.120 it's an intentional misunderstanding, Like. 2940 02:45:58.120 --> 02:46:03.639 It's you, right, you haven't interacted with many military. 2941 02:46:03.399 --> 02:46:07.040 Intentionally, like you have no intellectual curiosity whatsoever. 2942 02:46:07.239 --> 02:46:12.760 Yes, Yeah, and and there there are some schools. 2943 02:46:12.360 --> 02:46:17.040 That have that problem. Yeah, I'm this is yeah, so 2944 02:46:17.280 --> 02:46:22.239 I uh, I'm on a kind of a hiring freeze 2945 02:46:22.280 --> 02:46:26.319 at another position, so really excited about it. I'm really 2946 02:46:26.319 --> 02:46:29.399 looking forward to potentially start there. It looks like it 2947 02:46:29.440 --> 02:46:36.079 will happen, but hard to tell, so, you know, but 2948 02:46:37.319 --> 02:46:41.000 you know, anything could happen. I mean, it's it's a 2949 02:46:41.079 --> 02:46:42.840 very dynamic environment these days. 2950 02:46:43.000 --> 02:46:49.239 Is you know, uh putting the screws to the college. 2951 02:46:49.879 --> 02:46:54.840 Yeah, I mean, you know, uh, within government and outside government, 2952 02:46:54.879 --> 02:46:59.559 it's a very dynamic environment. And you know, the entire 2953 02:46:59.559 --> 02:47:04.280 eCos some education ecosystem, whether it's within the military system, 2954 02:47:04.319 --> 02:47:10.319 teaching a military schools, or whether it's at a civilian school, 2955 02:47:10.680 --> 02:47:12.239 there's government dollars. 2956 02:47:12.360 --> 02:47:14.079 You're going to have a party member in your office 2957 02:47:14.120 --> 02:47:17.799 pretty soon supervising making sure you're doing the right thing. 2958 02:47:18.639 --> 02:47:22.479 So there's there's so much government dollars involved that. 2959 02:47:24.200 --> 02:47:25.799 We're in a very dynamic. 2960 02:47:27.399 --> 02:47:31.120 And I'm kind of waiting on, you know, something, to 2961 02:47:31.200 --> 02:47:32.520 see how it turns out. 2962 02:47:32.600 --> 02:47:34.920 Outside of academy. I mean, you are. 2963 02:47:37.440 --> 02:47:43.959 Arguably one of the leading experts on like what happened, 2964 02:47:44.559 --> 02:47:49.280 what went wrong in Iraq. You know, your book shows that, 2965 02:47:50.040 --> 02:47:53.120 you know, I mean, before before a book like this, 2966 02:47:53.280 --> 02:47:54.799 I mean, what did we have, we had learning to 2967 02:47:54.840 --> 02:47:57.520 eat soup with a knife, like we there were very 2968 02:47:57.559 --> 02:48:05.120 few resources on conventional warfare. Yeah, but now we we have. 2969 02:48:05.399 --> 02:48:11.719 You know, you're like, you're generating new documents, historical documents. 2970 02:48:12.760 --> 02:48:13.159 On that. 2971 02:48:13.440 --> 02:48:17.360 Outside of academia, are there places in the government, in 2972 02:48:17.360 --> 02:48:21.280 the military where anybody's saying, look, we need to retake 2973 02:48:21.719 --> 02:48:24.559 Not only do we need to retain the knowledge, but 2974 02:48:24.799 --> 02:48:28.479 we need somebody with the ability to look back and 2975 02:48:28.520 --> 02:48:31.959 when we're making these military decisions, give us a historical 2976 02:48:32.040 --> 02:48:33.840 perspective as to how. 2977 02:48:33.719 --> 02:48:36.440 This might go. Because if they had had. 2978 02:48:36.399 --> 02:48:42.920 Anybody from Vietnam, from Vietnam, they or look at Yugoslavia. 2979 02:48:42.959 --> 02:48:46.440 Obviously that wasn't a military dissolution. Tito just decided to die. 2980 02:48:46.719 --> 02:48:50.440 But we saw what happened, and they would have gone, well, 2981 02:48:50.600 --> 02:48:52.360 you know, this happened in Yugoslavia. 2982 02:48:52.680 --> 02:48:56.879 Maybe take maybe taking Saddam Ow isn't the best idea. 2983 02:48:58.840 --> 02:49:01.239 He'sphically he's a shithead. 2984 02:49:01.200 --> 02:49:05.520 But he's a stable shit It's there's this interesting thing 2985 02:49:06.840 --> 02:49:09.360 where the politics are happening right in the moment. My 2986 02:49:09.479 --> 02:49:11.559 sense is that like they don't want to know what 2987 02:49:11.600 --> 02:49:15.159 the history is, like, that's not something they're even interested 2988 02:49:15.200 --> 02:49:18.719 in because they've made a decision, right, and so now well. 2989 02:49:18.600 --> 02:49:24.920 It's it's like there's there's some information coming out of 2990 02:49:24.920 --> 02:49:28.399 Syria right now, but not a lot about you know, 2991 02:49:29.120 --> 02:49:31.440 sort of the ethnic cleansing of Christians and alay. 2992 02:49:31.639 --> 02:49:33.200 You know, it's like. 2993 02:49:35.440 --> 02:49:39.719 Nobody nobody saw, nobody thought that if we get rid 2994 02:49:39.719 --> 02:49:43.479 of a sad that things might go sideways and they'll 2995 02:49:43.520 --> 02:49:46.520 be taken over by a extremist regime. 2996 02:49:46.760 --> 02:49:48.319 Nobody nobody thought that. 2997 02:49:50.360 --> 02:49:54.360 Yeah, so I think there are two To me, there 2998 02:49:54.399 --> 02:49:55.479 are two factors at play. 2999 02:49:56.120 --> 02:49:59.600 One is, you know, the. 3000 02:49:59.000 --> 02:50:05.879 Old adage that success has a thousand fathers and you know, 3001 02:50:06.000 --> 02:50:10.760 defeat has none, right, and taking that a step further is, 3002 02:50:11.559 --> 02:50:13.760 you know, when you lose or you don't do well, 3003 02:50:13.879 --> 02:50:17.799 you try to want to forget about it, right, And 3004 02:50:17.799 --> 02:50:20.239 and I think that's played out and it's playing out 3005 02:50:20.319 --> 02:50:23.719 kind of in Iraq and Afghanistan and probably even dark experienced. 3006 02:50:23.319 --> 02:50:29.559 At Syria, et cetera. Where we I mean. 3007 02:50:29.479 --> 02:50:33.079 You look at on the army is you know where 3008 02:50:33.120 --> 02:50:36.319 we gravitate, you know, you look at the last two 3009 02:50:36.399 --> 02:50:37.440 uniforms that we've had. 3010 02:50:37.440 --> 02:50:40.000 We wear it's the World War Two and the Civil 3011 02:50:40.000 --> 02:50:40.680 War uniform. 3012 02:50:41.120 --> 02:50:46.200 Both wars that were clear cut like good guys, bad guys, 3013 02:50:46.440 --> 02:50:50.040 you know, both wars that were massive, you know, moving 3014 02:50:50.440 --> 02:50:56.840 not divisions but cors and armies, right, and you know, 3015 02:50:57.040 --> 02:51:02.680 conflicts that were very kind of straightforward, and we, frankly, 3016 02:51:02.799 --> 02:51:06.879 we won pretty much. The second dynamic. I think that's 3017 02:51:06.920 --> 02:51:09.159 kind of going on a little bit is. 3018 02:51:10.719 --> 02:51:11.520 Being an American. 3019 02:51:12.440 --> 02:51:15.159 And one of the most beautiful things about an American 3020 02:51:15.200 --> 02:51:18.399 that I think is good that we are very different 3021 02:51:18.440 --> 02:51:20.479 than so many other countries of the world, is we 3022 02:51:20.520 --> 02:51:24.680 are always forward looking. We are always looking for the future. 3023 02:51:24.959 --> 02:51:27.479 What is next, what is the next big thing? Howming 3024 02:51:27.520 --> 02:51:30.719 to change the future. We are so focused on the future, 3025 02:51:30.920 --> 02:51:33.000 and it's great and I think it creates our national 3026 02:51:33.040 --> 02:51:35.920 culture to being a very successful culture, to being a 3027 02:51:35.959 --> 02:51:40.120 culture that is just wants to change, to move forward, 3028 02:51:40.520 --> 02:51:41.920 to improve things. 3029 02:51:42.760 --> 02:51:45.559 But on the flip side of that, we don't know. 3030 02:51:45.600 --> 02:51:49.280 History, like we're really bad at history. 3031 02:51:49.680 --> 02:51:52.959 And you know, teaching history at West Point for two years, 3032 02:51:55.440 --> 02:51:58.479 there is among thingers where we would you know, keep 3033 02:51:58.719 --> 02:52:03.040 records of essay responses of you know, the most shocking 3034 02:52:03.079 --> 02:52:06.959 responses that future second lieutenants that have two historical questions 3035 02:52:07.399 --> 02:52:08.079 of you. 3036 02:52:08.000 --> 02:52:12.040 Know, our high school education system is following a. 3037 02:52:11.959 --> 02:52:15.319 Bit short, yes, of the the lack of success of 3038 02:52:15.319 --> 02:52:17.319 our high school education system. 3039 02:52:17.360 --> 02:52:20.079 And again at a top university. 3040 02:52:19.600 --> 02:52:22.120 Right right, these are Ivy League kids basically equivalent. 3041 02:52:22.159 --> 02:52:25.840 Yeah, okay, So Frank, tell us where people can go 3042 02:52:25.920 --> 02:52:27.639 to find you on the interwebs. 3043 02:52:29.159 --> 02:52:30.040 What's the poise to go? 3044 02:52:30.319 --> 02:52:37.719 Yeah, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, interwebs. I mean, 3045 02:52:37.799 --> 02:52:43.920 and you know, I I publish Small Wars Journal. I publish. 3046 02:52:44.120 --> 02:52:46.959 I mean, if you if you go to my LinkedIn, 3047 02:52:47.000 --> 02:52:50.200 you'll see all my publications. That's probably the best place 3048 02:52:50.239 --> 02:52:52.360 because that's this where I kind of that's the. 3049 02:52:53.040 --> 02:52:54.680 And I write a lot. I write a lot. 3050 02:52:55.319 --> 02:52:58.440 I write for the Miriam Institute, which is a Israeli 3051 02:52:58.479 --> 02:53:01.559 American kind of thing tank. And so I've written a 3052 02:53:01.600 --> 02:53:07.879 lot about the you know, Palestinian Israeli Iranian conflict, multidirectional 3053 02:53:09.360 --> 02:53:13.600 both October seventh, pre October seventh and post October seventh. 3054 02:53:14.760 --> 02:53:18.280 You know, I've written for One on the Rocks, written 3055 02:53:18.319 --> 02:53:24.360 for Jerusalem's Tribute Tribune. I'm pretty good amount of shorter pieces. 3056 02:53:24.399 --> 02:53:27.639 If you're interested and you know something you can finish 3057 02:53:27.680 --> 02:53:29.399 in five ten minutes. 3058 02:53:29.840 --> 02:53:31.840 And we will have a link to that in the 3059 02:53:31.879 --> 02:53:34.440 description for this podcast for folks that'll want to go 3060 02:53:34.520 --> 02:53:38.799 check it out. Frank, we covered a huge array of 3061 02:53:38.840 --> 02:53:41.479 topics in this interview, and I'm sorry if I kept 3062 02:53:41.520 --> 02:53:41.680 you a. 3063 02:53:41.680 --> 02:53:43.479 Little late, but I mean it was for taking so 3064 02:53:43.520 --> 02:53:43.879 much time. 3065 02:53:43.959 --> 02:53:46.040 Yeah, it was very good, and I mean this is 3066 02:53:46.159 --> 02:53:48.319 very important information that I hope people will take some 3067 02:53:48.319 --> 02:53:51.680 time to reflect on before we get going tonight. I mean, 3068 02:53:51.719 --> 02:53:53.600 is there anything else that you want to talk about 3069 02:53:53.600 --> 02:53:55.680 that I didn't ask that you'd really like to shine 3070 02:53:55.680 --> 02:53:56.159 a light on. 3071 02:53:56.360 --> 02:53:58.959 No, I mean, thank you so much for being so 3072 02:53:59.000 --> 02:54:00.000 patient taking time. 3073 02:54:00.440 --> 02:54:02.639 We appreciate it. Talk too much. No, not at all. 3074 02:54:04.120 --> 02:54:07.639 Nobody, no guest ever has to come on the show 3075 02:54:07.959 --> 02:54:12.239 and apologize to us because I and and like Jack's 3076 02:54:12.280 --> 02:54:15.879 being very like Magnanums by saying I'm sorry I kept 3077 02:54:15.879 --> 02:54:16.200 you so. 3078 02:54:16.200 --> 02:54:20.559 Long when we all know, we all know why you're 3079 02:54:20.600 --> 02:54:23.120 here so long. Thank you. 3080 02:54:23.440 --> 02:54:25.639 Yeah, well, no, really, they're Legit was a lot of 3081 02:54:25.719 --> 02:54:27.719 content to cover in the book, and I'm glad that 3082 02:54:27.760 --> 02:54:28.840 we were able to get to it. 3083 02:54:28.920 --> 02:54:31.399 So thanks for joining us. Thanks coming out. 3084 02:54:31.440 --> 02:54:34.280 I really appreciate you hosting me, and especially with such 3085 02:54:34.280 --> 02:54:37.799 an awesome you know, channel and podcast. 3086 02:54:37.360 --> 02:54:39.799 And check it out. Training for Victory is the book. 3087 02:54:40.479 --> 02:54:43.399 I actually finished reading it this morning. I read the 3088 02:54:43.440 --> 02:54:45.559 first three chapters when it first came out, and then 3089 02:54:45.559 --> 02:54:46.840 when you were coming on the show, I was like, oh, 3090 02:54:46.879 --> 02:54:48.000 I got to really finish it now. 3091 02:54:49.639 --> 02:54:51.280 I really enjoyed it. I hope you guys will go 3092 02:54:51.319 --> 02:54:51.879 and check it out. 3093 02:54:51.959 --> 02:54:54.280 It's out now, find it on Amazon or Barnes and 3094 02:54:54.319 --> 02:54:55.120 Noble or wherever. 3095 02:54:56.719 --> 02:55:00.959 Oh d do we have any questions? Good point, I 3096 02:55:00.959 --> 02:55:01.920 almost forgot about that. 3097 02:55:04.719 --> 02:55:04.920 Yeah. 3098 02:55:09.399 --> 02:55:15.120 From m corbin, uh, coin from my city dumbass point 3099 02:55:15.159 --> 02:55:17.440 of view seems to work best when done with a 3100 02:55:17.479 --> 02:55:21.239 long term, more multi generational goal in mind. How important 3101 02:55:21.239 --> 02:55:24.319 are women in achieving coin goals in that respect? 3102 02:55:25.760 --> 02:55:28.159 So multi generational I think is critical. 3103 02:55:29.200 --> 02:55:31.600 That is really the outlook that you have to take 3104 02:55:31.600 --> 02:55:34.879 from it and one of the biggest challenges. 3105 02:55:34.879 --> 02:55:35.639 I think we talked. 3106 02:55:35.639 --> 02:55:37.520 I don't remember it was before the interview or after, 3107 02:55:37.920 --> 02:55:41.159 but you know there's this premise that like it was 3108 02:55:41.239 --> 02:55:43.040 just over the horizon, the next year was. 3109 02:55:43.000 --> 02:55:44.000 All going to be over right. 3110 02:55:44.399 --> 02:55:46.680 I think the second part of the question was women 3111 02:55:46.760 --> 02:55:47.799 how important are women in it? 3112 02:55:48.200 --> 02:55:51.959 So, I think women are a really important factor. 3113 02:55:51.600 --> 02:55:56.399 In it, if you and so there's a challenge, there's 3114 02:55:56.399 --> 02:56:03.159 there's there's a balance, right, certain cultures do not appreciate 3115 02:56:03.239 --> 02:56:07.680 women and do not value them like we do in 3116 02:56:07.719 --> 02:56:13.520 the United States. Well, okay, maybe I'm that's maybe. 3117 02:56:13.319 --> 02:56:15.799 A little harsh, but I think I'm just gonna say it. 3118 02:56:15.920 --> 02:56:16.399 Yeah. 3119 02:56:16.520 --> 02:56:20.159 I the challenges is pushing. 3120 02:56:21.440 --> 02:56:23.680 You don't want to push too hard, too fast, but 3121 02:56:23.719 --> 02:56:26.200 you also don't want to push too slow because there's 3122 02:56:26.200 --> 02:56:31.280 a tremendous value there in you know, of the population 3123 02:56:31.920 --> 02:56:36.719 that could be producing economically, they could be producing new ideas. 3124 02:56:37.639 --> 02:56:41.520 It is out of the workforce, you're automatically stemy. 3125 02:56:41.680 --> 02:56:45.159 The Afghans had like the was female tactical unit. 3126 02:56:45.120 --> 02:56:49.719 And the cstet for the Yeah. 3127 02:56:50.200 --> 02:56:53.680 And you point out in the book the ICTF used 3128 02:56:53.719 --> 02:56:54.719 women for reki. 3129 02:56:54.920 --> 02:57:01.520 Yeah, you know, for just say for because I'm trying 3130 02:57:01.520 --> 02:57:03.799 to forget the best way to say this. For you know, 3131 02:57:04.000 --> 02:57:14.200 human intelligence, oftentimes women make superb sources sources. Yeah, and 3132 02:57:14.440 --> 02:57:19.079 you know, and and there is tremendous value there. And 3133 02:57:19.159 --> 02:57:22.440 I think particularly on the human intelligence side, if that 3134 02:57:22.520 --> 02:57:28.479 has overlooked it it's you know, a huge resource that 3135 02:57:28.600 --> 02:57:30.479 is being not tapped. 3136 02:57:30.159 --> 02:57:32.959 Well in a lot of times, you know, and whether 3137 02:57:33.040 --> 02:57:35.520 it's in a Latin American country where you know, the 3138 02:57:35.559 --> 02:57:40.280 women are free to speak, but you know, are tired 3139 02:57:40.280 --> 02:57:43.319 of losing their sons or tired of the bullshit, or 3140 02:57:43.600 --> 02:57:47.200 you know, you go to Afghanistan where you know, the 3141 02:57:47.280 --> 02:57:53.479 FAT and CST teams or even a medcap or a 3142 02:57:53.520 --> 02:57:58.280 PRT or whatever, where all them guys are like, I'm 3143 02:57:58.280 --> 02:58:01.559 not saying ship and the women are like, yeah, they 3144 02:58:01.600 --> 02:58:03.719 built a well and then these motherfuckers came in and 3145 02:58:03.719 --> 02:58:05.440 blew up the well. And now I have to walk, 3146 02:58:05.799 --> 02:58:08.440 you know, two clicks. You know, I have to walk 3147 02:58:08.479 --> 02:58:10.559 to the river to get the water. Yeah, I want 3148 02:58:10.600 --> 02:58:14.399 to tell you who blew up the well? Right to 3149 02:58:14.440 --> 02:58:17.639 be able to leverage that and and have you know 3150 02:58:17.840 --> 02:58:24.399 US or or indigenous intelligence or information gatherers even if 3151 02:58:24.399 --> 02:58:28.000 they're not like intelligence, but being able to interact with 3152 02:58:28.040 --> 02:58:28.559 those women. 3153 02:58:29.040 --> 02:58:34.000 Yeah, it's like it's a massive advantage. Yeah, advantage. Yeah. 3154 02:58:34.079 --> 02:58:35.719 There's one last thing I wanted to throw is that 3155 02:58:35.879 --> 02:58:42.319 is oftentimes when women are more included in the defense forces, 3156 02:58:43.079 --> 02:58:48.760 there's a statistical correlation with less corruption. And you know, 3157 02:58:50.600 --> 02:58:54.079 whether it's that, you know, they're the outsiders, and so 3158 02:58:54.200 --> 02:58:57.479 by being outsiders they're more willing to kind of call 3159 02:58:57.520 --> 02:59:01.760 out stuff and willing to be both whistleblowers or whatever. 3160 02:59:02.280 --> 02:59:07.760 But there is a correlation there in that in organizations 3161 02:59:08.000 --> 02:59:11.600 and armies that have women in the services, the corruption 3162 02:59:11.719 --> 02:59:12.879 often is less. 3163 02:59:13.360 --> 02:59:14.760 I wonder if that is. 3164 02:59:15.120 --> 02:59:17.479 I wonder if the corruption is less because there are 3165 02:59:17.479 --> 02:59:20.479 women who will call it out, or if a culture 3166 02:59:20.479 --> 02:59:25.600 that is progressive enough to have women is just a 3167 02:59:25.879 --> 02:59:29.040 less corrupt culture by nature, don't I don't know'd be curious. 3168 02:59:29.200 --> 02:59:31.559 That's a valid point. Yeah, that's a valid point. It's 3169 02:59:31.680 --> 02:59:33.799 the causation versus correlation. 3170 02:59:34.079 --> 02:59:36.559 Yeah, you know the questions. 3171 02:59:37.799 --> 02:59:40.799 From what Ryan p Training for Victor was a pretty 3172 02:59:40.799 --> 02:59:44.000 informative read. I learned a lot, particularly about about the 3173 02:59:44.040 --> 02:59:47.840 Afghans and Iraqis and their advisors. However, I kind of 3174 02:59:47.879 --> 02:59:50.799 wondered why an uncritical take was given to the Colombians. 3175 02:59:51.399 --> 02:59:52.639 Can we get an explanation? 3176 02:59:54.600 --> 03:00:03.280 So, I don't know, uh, uncritical, uncritical? Yeah, I think, 3177 03:00:03.319 --> 03:00:07.280 I mean my perception of the Colombians and I okay, 3178 03:00:07.319 --> 03:00:09.639 so I'm gonna back up when I went into this. 3179 03:00:10.879 --> 03:00:12.239 If I was gonna rank. 3180 03:00:12.159 --> 03:00:17.760 Order the most successful units. Before I started my research, 3181 03:00:18.200 --> 03:00:19.959 I thought it was going to be I saw off 3182 03:00:20.840 --> 03:00:25.920 Afghan commandos, LRR, Colombians Alsalvadar. 3183 03:00:26.680 --> 03:00:29.840 Like my perception, not having worked. 3184 03:00:29.600 --> 03:00:35.040 In Latin America and perhaps you know, just the stereotype, 3185 03:00:35.280 --> 03:00:37.680 you know, I thought, oh, there's gonna be a mass corruption, 3186 03:00:37.920 --> 03:00:45.319 et cetera. Man Like everyone I talked to like everyone, 3187 03:00:45.360 --> 03:00:48.200 and I talked to civilians. I talked to people in 3188 03:00:48.239 --> 03:00:52.040 the intelligence community. I talked to a journalist. I talked 3189 03:00:52.079 --> 03:00:56.360 to host Nation. I talked to everyone from you know, 3190 03:00:56.799 --> 03:01:02.799 East seven to lieutenant general and every rank in between. 3191 03:01:02.879 --> 03:01:06.360 I talked to State Department people. I talked to army 3192 03:01:06.399 --> 03:01:09.280 people who were not soft but who are in the 3193 03:01:09.319 --> 03:01:14.399 embassy in you know, the attach or the advisory group, 3194 03:01:15.520 --> 03:01:19.719 and like across the board, it was this is the 3195 03:01:19.760 --> 03:01:24.760 best partner for us, and so if it comes across 3196 03:01:25.040 --> 03:01:28.000 perhaps is the least critical. I think that's just a 3197 03:01:28.040 --> 03:01:32.280 reflection of mostly of the research of and frankly my 3198 03:01:32.399 --> 03:01:36.280 surprise that I had a ranked fourth initially and they 3199 03:01:36.319 --> 03:01:42.639 came out the best. If anything, you know, you know, 3200 03:01:42.799 --> 03:01:47.360 a critical comment about the Colombians was, or let me 3201 03:01:47.399 --> 03:01:51.719 rephrase that, a way to understand perhaps why Training for 3202 03:01:51.799 --> 03:01:55.719 Victory isn't critical of the Colombians is if you look 3203 03:01:55.760 --> 03:01:59.520 at the time periods that is involved, it is after 3204 03:01:59.600 --> 03:02:04.040 the sam Blur presidency, and that is a big turning point. 3205 03:02:04.600 --> 03:02:05.280 Like Colombia in. 3206 03:02:05.280 --> 03:02:09.520 The nineties is a mess, it's a disaster. Everyone is 3207 03:02:09.559 --> 03:02:11.680 predicting it's going to be a failed state, or that 3208 03:02:11.879 --> 03:02:15.040 large tracts of the country are going to be overrun 3209 03:02:15.040 --> 03:02:16.760 by the farc. The fark is going to run parts 3210 03:02:16.760 --> 03:02:18.840 of the country. They've become their own already did. Like 3211 03:02:18.920 --> 03:02:25.840 Theomous stated in Atomis though Farklandia completely that there were there. 3212 03:02:25.639 --> 03:02:26.639 Were more. 3213 03:02:27.920 --> 03:02:33.879 Kidnappings and murders in Colombia than in Afghanistan in the 3214 03:02:33.959 --> 03:02:36.479 late nineties. It was like the number one per capita 3215 03:02:36.520 --> 03:02:40.959 in the world. It was a disaster. Yeah, the training 3216 03:02:41.000 --> 03:02:43.000 for Victory comes. 3217 03:02:44.639 --> 03:02:45.719 After that period. 3218 03:02:46.040 --> 03:02:53.280 Partially, I start after the Sampler has ended, because the 3219 03:02:53.600 --> 03:02:57.639 Bokoa and Aglan don't start getting really stood up until 3220 03:02:57.959 --> 03:02:59.200 post September eleventh. 3221 03:03:00.319 --> 03:03:07.479 Do you who made that content, Brian p So if 3222 03:03:07.559 --> 03:03:10.799 Ryan Ryan, if you're still watching right now, just throw 3223 03:03:10.879 --> 03:03:13.920 up in the chatter and the thing like if you 3224 03:03:14.120 --> 03:03:17.120 had criticisms of it, I'd be curious. 3225 03:03:18.200 --> 03:03:20.000 Obviously you saw it as as uncritical. 3226 03:03:20.079 --> 03:03:24.079 I'd be curious what criticisms you may have expected that 3227 03:03:24.200 --> 03:03:25.520 didn't didn't land. 3228 03:03:27.840 --> 03:03:29.639 All right, we got one more from Matt. 3229 03:03:29.719 --> 03:03:32.719 Gu what's the best advice you've received? 3230 03:03:32.760 --> 03:03:34.239 And thank you for your time? 3231 03:03:35.719 --> 03:03:39.920 Best advice I ever received? Yep, great question. 3232 03:03:42.920 --> 03:03:46.559 I mean the best advice I ever received was from 3233 03:03:46.600 --> 03:03:49.760 Captain Cunliffe, who is my company commander and who told 3234 03:03:49.799 --> 03:03:51.520 me to try out for us out. 3235 03:03:52.079 --> 03:03:53.920 I mean that was the best advice. 3236 03:03:53.600 --> 03:03:56.639 I ever received because and he you know, he said, look, 3237 03:03:56.799 --> 03:03:59.239 if you know you, if you don't do it, you'll 3238 03:03:59.280 --> 03:04:00.479 regret at the rest of life. 3239 03:04:00.920 --> 03:04:04.280 And there are certain things that kind of turning. 3240 03:04:03.959 --> 03:04:08.840 Points in your life where you know, I didn't come 3241 03:04:08.879 --> 03:04:11.239 from a military family. I certainly didn't come from a 3242 03:04:11.600 --> 03:04:15.120 you know, a software elite family. You know, my dad 3243 03:04:15.159 --> 03:04:20.719 was an orphan. You got to jump into deep end, 3244 03:04:21.639 --> 03:04:27.159 and you know, having the right mentor or right person 3245 03:04:27.319 --> 03:04:29.879 at the right time in your life to help push 3246 03:04:29.920 --> 03:04:33.319 you a little bit off or to tell you, like, hey, jump, 3247 03:04:33.360 --> 03:04:38.239 it's gonna be okay, that taking that jump is okay. 3248 03:04:40.159 --> 03:04:44.200 Do you had were you aware of a SF prior 3249 03:04:44.280 --> 03:04:46.079 to him? Saying that. 3250 03:04:46.200 --> 03:04:48.239 I mean, I was aware of it, but I you know, 3251 03:04:48.280 --> 03:04:50.440 I was not one of these guys that was like 3252 03:04:50.680 --> 03:04:53.159 at west Point like I'm going SF you know, like 3253 03:04:53.200 --> 03:04:55.239 I was in the Infangy Tactics Club and so like 3254 03:04:55.280 --> 03:04:59.639 I spent my spring breaks like overseas training with form 3255 03:04:59.680 --> 03:05:03.920 military like the Brits. Mostly I spent my weekends in 3256 03:05:03.959 --> 03:05:07.319 the field doing cool you know patrols basically pre ranger 3257 03:05:07.399 --> 03:05:09.280 almost like patrols, but without getting hazed. 3258 03:05:09.319 --> 03:05:10.159 It was like it was fun. 3259 03:05:11.959 --> 03:05:14.159 It's just like you know, doing training all the time 3260 03:05:14.200 --> 03:05:17.680 with Amlo and anyway. 3261 03:05:17.719 --> 03:05:21.639 But yeah, so it's you think, I'm sure. 3262 03:05:22.040 --> 03:05:24.280 I was just gonna say it wasn't like something that 3263 03:05:24.319 --> 03:05:26.159 I knew that I was going think that you. 3264 03:05:26.159 --> 03:05:28.680 Ever would have it had he not said do it. 3265 03:05:31.280 --> 03:05:34.200 I gotta tell you, I don't know's I mean, like 3266 03:05:34.479 --> 03:05:37.079 the fate, it's it's on my mind. But if we 3267 03:05:37.159 --> 03:05:37.559 just did it. 3268 03:05:37.559 --> 03:05:41.479 But when we interviewed Lindsay earlier today and she went 3269 03:05:41.520 --> 03:05:45.959 and assessed for one hundred and sixtieth because her commander 3270 03:05:46.040 --> 03:05:48.559 told her you'll never be a little Bird pilot, there's 3271 03:05:48.600 --> 03:05:50.600 no way you'll ever get selected, and she was like, 3272 03:05:50.760 --> 03:05:53.600 I'll fucking show you. And it's just it's interesting how 3273 03:05:53.680 --> 03:05:56.559 like different people need to hear different things at different 3274 03:05:56.559 --> 03:05:57.520 periods of their life. 3275 03:05:57.680 --> 03:06:01.879 Right, So I will add one of the other company commanders. 3276 03:06:02.040 --> 03:06:06.719 I overheard him talking to another commander saying, a sub 3277 03:06:06.799 --> 03:06:07.520 check is never going to. 3278 03:06:07.559 --> 03:06:16.000 Make it, like you so so yeah, so I had that. 3279 03:06:16.040 --> 03:06:19.360 I had actually on both kind of both poles, right, 3280 03:06:19.520 --> 03:06:22.600 going around ye, but pushing me kind of like magnetically 3281 03:06:22.879 --> 03:06:28.040 like pushing pull right. But to answer the question, I 3282 03:06:28.079 --> 03:06:31.280 don't know, and I I've become kind of more of 3283 03:06:31.319 --> 03:06:35.680 a believer in like fate and like just like shit 3284 03:06:35.799 --> 03:06:40.520 kind of happens like without almost like there's gravity in 3285 03:06:40.559 --> 03:06:44.879 our lives and we get pulled certain ways, just people 3286 03:06:44.879 --> 03:06:48.479 in our lives, you know, whether they're connections from previous 3287 03:06:48.520 --> 03:06:54.399 lives or or what or if if that, you know, 3288 03:06:54.440 --> 03:06:57.600 I think back to it, like if that flyer, if 3289 03:06:57.600 --> 03:07:03.319 it got lost in the mail, right, like right, if 3290 03:07:03.719 --> 03:07:07.200 Captain Cunliff hadn't been there looking over me when I 3291 03:07:07.280 --> 03:07:10.799 was his XO was looking at it and he hadn't remarked, 3292 03:07:11.920 --> 03:07:14.159 I don't know. I might had I might have gotten 3293 03:07:14.159 --> 03:07:18.399 out of the army at the six year mark. I 3294 03:07:18.440 --> 03:07:20.319 probably would have because I was not happy. 3295 03:07:20.719 --> 03:07:24.600 Yeah, fascinating. Yeah did Ryan Pire respond? 3296 03:07:25.239 --> 03:07:29.719 Okay, So I think that's about a wrap for tonight, Frank, 3297 03:07:30.239 --> 03:07:33.600 at least until you write your next book publisher perish. 3298 03:07:33.360 --> 03:07:33.559 Yeah. 3299 03:07:33.600 --> 03:07:40.440 You know, we'll see you here again sometime, I hope. Yeah. 3300 03:07:40.479 --> 03:07:42.360 So then, thank you for joining us. Thanks for Yeah, 3301 03:07:42.360 --> 03:07:43.200 we really appreciate it. 3302 03:07:43.239 --> 03:07:44.639 I really appreciate you having me. 3303 03:07:44.760 --> 03:07:45.360 Thank you so much. 3304 03:07:45.440 --> 03:07:48.280 Yeah, you're welcome anytime, man, and we'll see all of 3305 03:07:48.319 --> 03:07:49.440 you guys out there next time. 3306 03:07:49.520 --> 03:07:51.680 Thanks for joining us. Hey, guys, it's Jack. 3307 03:07:51.760 --> 03:07:53.120 I just want to talk to you for a moment 3308 03:07:53.159 --> 03:07:55.360 about how you can support the show. If you've been 3309 03:07:55.399 --> 03:07:57.840 watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a 3310 03:07:57.879 --> 03:08:00.319 little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, 3311 03:08:00.799 --> 03:08:03.879 you can check out our Patreon It is patreon dot 3312 03:08:03.920 --> 03:08:08.040 com slash the Teamhouse, and for five dollars a month, 3313 03:08:08.120 --> 03:08:10.719 you can get access to all of these episodes of 3314 03:08:10.760 --> 03:08:14.879 The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes with our affiliated 3315 03:08:14.920 --> 03:08:19.479 podcast eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy. That 3316 03:08:19.559 --> 03:08:22.360 one you will also get all of those episodes ad free, 3317 03:08:23.000 --> 03:08:26.200 and you support the channel and the show, and we 3318 03:08:26.280 --> 03:08:30.280 really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has 3319 03:08:30.280 --> 03:08:35.000 helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our 3320 03:08:35.040 --> 03:08:38.280 early years, and you are what continues to help this 3321 03:08:38.360 --> 03:08:42.440 thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of 3322 03:08:42.479 --> 03:08:43.600 YouTube advertising. 3323 03:08:43.840 --> 03:08:45.639 So we really appreciate all of you guys. 3324 03:08:46.520 --> 03:08:48.159 There's going to be a link down in the description 3325 03:08:48.280 --> 03:08:51.760 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 3326 03:08:51.799 --> 03:08:54.600 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 3327 03:08:54.639 --> 03:08:57.000 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise, 3328 03:08:57.040 --> 03:09:00.600 we got stickers and we also have patches, and I 3329 03:09:00.600 --> 03:09:03.559 should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten 3330 03:09:03.600 --> 03:09:05.920 dollars a month, we will mail you this patch as well, 3331 03:09:07.360 --> 03:09:10.760 so we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale 3332 03:09:10.799 --> 03:09:14.399 on the merch shop and additionally, they got t shirts 3333 03:09:14.479 --> 03:09:19.200 up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all 3334 03:09:19.200 --> 03:09:21.959 that good stuff, So please go and check them out 3335 03:09:22.000 --> 03:09:22.879 and support the show. 3336 03:09:23.479 --> 03:09:46.799 We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you,