1
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: So it's so insane.

2
00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:11,959
Speaker 2: Bunker bunker, bunker.

3
00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:15,719
Speaker 3: Knocker.

4
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 4: I got married.

5
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 5: I got married to a funko who.

6
00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:36,120
Speaker 3: We got wedded.

7
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,879
Speaker 5: Come joint in the subway, he shot, I.

8
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,519
Speaker 3: Am married, I'm married to my func.

9
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 5: But do we get joined? Co write a sooner subway

10
00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,359
he shot.

11
00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:03,920
Speaker 4: It's as and biscuits and linerals. They come to to

12
00:02:04,680 --> 00:03:31,039
my whole life a spit watch other two. We have

13
00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:38,759
successfully cocked our block. We have successfully pretended to burn sage,

14
00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:44,000
which actually if you pretend to burn sage, it only

15
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:51,159
banishes pretend bad spirits. Happy Christmas everyone, Eve on the

16
00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:55,400
real Christmas, not the fake Pope Christmas, not fake Papal Christmas.

17
00:03:55,439 --> 00:03:56,520
It's the real Christmas.

18
00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 3: Eve.

19
00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:01,840
Speaker 4: Hope you got good presence if you did it, not

20
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,680
my problem. Also, you can support my stream via what

21
00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:09,319
are called super chats, which are done through stream Labs.

22
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,000
Stream Labs is the link that's pinned the top of

23
00:04:12,039 --> 00:04:15,000
the chat. You can also find that link at all

24
00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:19,439
times in the show description. Show description has all the

25
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,720
links that help you help me to help you through

26
00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:27,959
supporting the show through all the varied and a sundry

27
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:36,439
ways to support the show. Welcome, everybody, shout out, got

28
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,480
a few super chats to read from the last time

29
00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:45,480
that I did not get to I meant to make

30
00:04:45,519 --> 00:04:48,040
a coffee and I didn't get to it. Yet. My

31
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,079
allergies are going crazy as usual, since I left a

32
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,399
thirty two degrees scenario and came to a seventy five

33
00:04:56,439 --> 00:05:01,079
degrees scenario. And when it's seventy five degrees, it means

34
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,160
that pollen boys on the attack. Jayder three dollars is

35
00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:07,879
the fake Jenner. You should watch the movie Death Dream

36
00:05:07,959 --> 00:05:10,879
nineteen seventy four. It's the best vampire movie. It's a

37
00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:14,680
mind controlled Vietnam that who Comes Home type of deal.

38
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,199
The same to the Mad Black Christmas. I think I

39
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,480
read that last time Dead Don't end your stream, it's

40
00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:24,360
the best stream ever. New Year celebration. Jamie is reading

41
00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:29,680
her book? Who reading whose book? Vane three dollars. What's

42
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,920
the best kind of Bitcoin stories? Probably Lederer? Harry Sapounds

43
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,600
ten dollars. Happy New Year, Jay, God bless your family.

44
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,240
Carlo Phelps three dollars. Christ is born Say John Evangelist's

45
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:52,120
Orthodox Mission recently found a property for a permanent mission

46
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:58,560
location in Mesa, Arizona. I mean Mesa, Arizona. I'm not

47
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,720
a grifter, but I love Orthodox community, so spread this

48
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,240
word everywhere we would need. We need help raising money.

49
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,160
Carlisle Phelps, Okay, well how do we? I guess people

50
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,319
just look for that online Orthodox Mission, Saint John the

51
00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,160
Evangelist Orthodox Mission, and Mason Arizona. So I don't have

52
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,120
any links to support it, but thank you. If you

53
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,759
would like to support them, go find their their links.

54
00:06:21,759 --> 00:06:24,879
I guess google it. Haiti's undead ten dollars. I just

55
00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:30,000
ordered my first commissioned yakoub icon. I must pay homage

56
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,839
to my creator. Thank you for the recommendations. You're welcome.

57
00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:37,360
Zalmoxi's fifty dollars. He's we hadn't even started yet, and

58
00:06:37,399 --> 00:06:42,199
we're already we're already retiring from all this bank Geeddy

59
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,199
Green that's coming in. Thank you so much, Zalmoxis. Have

60
00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:48,680
you talked about the history of liturgy and how it

61
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,040
informs the Biblical canon? No, you often talk about this.

62
00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:54,759
I saw a video where you mentioned literagy. Saint Mark.

63
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,120
Do you have any book recommendations of the history of liturgy? Yeah,

64
00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,079
I would read the Williams and Install book on the

65
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,279
History of the Temple and Synagogue. Liturgy as it influences

66
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,360
the Orthodox Church, and I would read Hugh Wybruce book

67
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:19,079
The Byzantine Liturgy and Why. Bruce book is particularly impactful

68
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,560
because it was written by an Anglican who supports a

69
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,240
lot of the contentious perhaps ideas of the Orthodox Church.

70
00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:34,920
MKG ten dollars, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. Thank you.

71
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,120
You mentioned a while back the Orthodox Study Bible had

72
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:44,600
in your in my opinion, five to seven mistakes. Do

73
00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:46,879
you have a go to place to refer for those now?

74
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,399
I mean it's just things I've noticed over I don't

75
00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:53,240
know ten years of using Orthodox Study Bible. I mean

76
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,800
not bragging, but I mean I've worn mine out. I

77
00:07:56,839 --> 00:07:59,319
don't have a list of places where I thought it

78
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:05,120
was a mistake. Do you think it will be changed

79
00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:08,079
or fixed? I don't think anything will be changed because

80
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,360
I think that people that wrote the notes, whoever they are,

81
00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:17,319
we're writing, you know, their best informed theological opinions. Cayden

82
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,399
Scrugs three dollars three dollar. I was baptizing the Orthodox

83
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,839
Church my Wifeishoryay. Thanks to you. Hey, glad to hear that.

84
00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:28,079
Cayden Scrugs BMX ten dollars. Christ is born thank you,

85
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,959
thank you, BMX, Merry Christmas everybody, and a little bit

86
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:38,080
of an update on me personally. I challenge myself to

87
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,679
be more loving. This is gonna be the year twenty

88
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,919
twenty five is gonna be the year of love. So

89
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,279
let's remind ourselves what is love. Love is patient and kind.

90
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,399
It does not envy, It does not parade itself, is

91
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,240
not puffed up, doesn't behave rudely, does not seek its own,

92
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,080
isn't provoked, doesn't think evil, does not rejoice in iniquity,

93
00:08:56,159 --> 00:08:58,120
rejoices in the truth, bears all things, believes all things,

94
00:08:58,159 --> 00:09:01,159
hopes all things, and there's all things, never feels. If

95
00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:04,360
there's prophecies, they will be fulfilled. Is what it means

96
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,679
by fail. If there are tongues, they will cease languages,

97
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,559
knowing languages and not going to matter. They ask Caton,

98
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,840
having knowledge not going to matter, And they ask Caton.

99
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,000
We know and prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes,

100
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,480
that which is in part will pass away. For now

101
00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:26,519
we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face,

102
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,000
abide in faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these

103
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,440
is love. So notice that love is not divorced from

104
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,320
what's true. It rejoices in what's true. Love should be patient,

105
00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:46,159
should be kind. But it is not the an affectation

106
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,799
or some front that you put up. You have to

107
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,600
actually genuinely be these things in your heart. And nobody

108
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,600
can actually be those things in their heart without divine grace.

109
00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:01,519
So these are not purely human works that you can achieve.

110
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,519
You must achieve these through the grace of God. And

111
00:10:06,519 --> 00:10:12,639
I must force myself to balance out joking around, debating,

112
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,879
and so forth, dealing with many, many unruly ridiculous persons.

113
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,559
And I'm going to strive this year, in twenty twenty five,

114
00:10:21,799 --> 00:10:26,039
to try to be balanced in all those ways. So

115
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,440
that's my challenge to me. Nobody told me I needed

116
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,799
to do this. Nobody said you better repent on your

117
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,759
live stream. I do not think that love excludes ribbing

118
00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:41,559
people joking around, but I'm going to try to be

119
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,159
better at that. So that's my New Year's resolution. Also,

120
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,600
my other resolution was to not play any video games

121
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,960
for one year, except for maybe Mario Karba Jamie on

122
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,440
a feast day. That's about it. So I was trying

123
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,799
to think of pleasures to give up. I guess video

124
00:10:59,799 --> 00:11:03,120
games are a kind of a pleasure. But I don't

125
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,720
even really play that many video games. But I didn't

126
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:12,120
want video games to get in the way. So this

127
00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:14,840
is not like me telling you, oh, I'm so pious

128
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,600
because I am fasting publicly from video games and I

129
00:11:17,639 --> 00:11:20,279
want you all to know how pious I am. No, No,

130
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,080
this is not This is just for U New Year's resolution.

131
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,799
So it's not even anything particularly religious. Now I'm not

132
00:11:27,799 --> 00:11:29,799
gonna see. That's what I'm saying. I gotta balance out

133
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:35,679
love with roasting. How can you still roast people and

134
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,679
make jokes? Which I don't know if you guys saw

135
00:11:38,799 --> 00:11:42,000
my Twitter profile, but I am yes officially working with

136
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,000
Sam Hide on his new TV show, his new twenty

137
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,279
twenty five of Us Sam Hide Show, and I might

138
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,399
have had a hand in some previous, already produced content.

139
00:11:53,159 --> 00:11:55,159
So yeah, we gotta we gotta figure out how to

140
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,840
balance all this. We gotta walk the tightrope. We gotta

141
00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:07,600
steer between and Cherubidus Skilla and scrill X and Kareem

142
00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:10,679
abdulji Bar. We gotta steer between squill X and Kareem

143
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,879
of those of Bar, just like the Greek who was

144
00:12:14,919 --> 00:12:20,039
it Odysseus or whoever did going on and travels. He

145
00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:24,240
was traveling. We're gonna open it up. Enough of my yapping.

146
00:12:25,399 --> 00:12:26,840
I'm gonna have to have a little bit of meat

147
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:34,080
tonight because anytime we travel, we drive for ten freaking

148
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,440
hours to get back to Florida, messes up my stomach.

149
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:45,759
So welcome tonight. The topics are, you've got it, all

150
00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:49,720
the ones that we always do that are listed. Glad

151
00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:51,639
to see a lot of people saying I'm reading Saint

152
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:57,559
John Damascus's writings. That's great. I had a guy calling

153
00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,320
the other night and said that he had read on

154
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:04,480
the Orthodox face. Glad to hear that. It's the first

155
00:13:04,519 --> 00:13:10,799
systematic theology. It's a classic, really good bust down a

156
00:13:10,879 --> 00:13:13,480
jubilee one dollar. How much do you like your watch?

157
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,679
Actually tired of this watch. But the thing is, I

158
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,759
don't want to buy a new watch because if I

159
00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:21,919
was to buy a new Movado, which, by the way,

160
00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:25,279
secret you can get those at the outlet. So you

161
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:30,080
get a designer watch, get at the outlet, dog and

162
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,799
you pay like way less. You didn't know that. But

163
00:13:36,039 --> 00:13:39,320
any money that I would allocate to a new Movada watch,

164
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,519
I bought this one in twenty eighteen. I would rather

165
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,600
have in bitcoin, So it makes no sense to buy

166
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,039
a stupid watch. So do I like this watch? It's

167
00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:50,519
pretty cool. I've had it for about six years. But

168
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,559
did you know a lot of people don't know this,

169
00:13:55,639 --> 00:13:58,000
but people that buy like watches, there's not this watch.

170
00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:02,159
This is just a silly watch, but it's just a

171
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:09,240
mid grade watch. Watches are actually ways to store value,

172
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,039
so not everybody that's buying a watch is buying it.

173
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,919
I'm not talking about this. I'm not like if somebody

174
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,120
bought a Rolex, because they store value. So wealthy people

175
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,320
don't just buy things to be ostentatious for no reason.

176
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,000
Maybe some of them do, but sometimes people invest I'm

177
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,320
not talking about me. I'm talking somebody bought up rolex.

178
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,840
It's an investment, but that was before bitcoin. So everything

179
00:14:34,879 --> 00:14:38,879
that you might try to do with a Rolex or

180
00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:43,080
whatever as an investment is dumb because you should have

181
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,000
bought bitcoin instead of a stupid watch. So anyway, yes,

182
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,720
I like this watch, but it's already like old. So

183
00:14:52,240 --> 00:15:05,080
welcome everybody, camp Cam Pomson. There's Orthodoxy condemned Freemasonry because

184
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,679
I know there's a patriarch who was one and that

185
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,519
bothers me. You're gonna find freemasons potentially in any church.

186
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:14,799
So if you're looking for us some perfect church that

187
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,240
doesn't have evil people in it, you're never gonna find one.

188
00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:22,279
As a Catholic, I know that church condemns it. Yes,

189
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,440
there are many statements. If you go to orthodox info

190
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:29,039
dot com and type in freemasonry, you'll find many condemnations

191
00:15:29,039 --> 00:15:33,039
of freemasonry by the Orthodox Church. Atheist de vehterant ten dollars.

192
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,120
Thank you, jam My girlfriend and I are catechumens. We're

193
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,120
nine months. I hope you don't mean you're nine months

194
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,039
old because that'd be really word if for typing. We

195
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,919
come from a Baptist background. That's good here, dude, Can

196
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,840
you summarize the difference between pneumatology for those who don't

197
00:15:51,879 --> 00:15:55,279
know that's the doctor of the Holy Spirit, between Protestant

198
00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:01,240
and Orthodox. Well, simply put, Artisans for the most part

199
00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,799
kind of just default to the Roman Catholic position. So

200
00:16:05,039 --> 00:16:08,440
they're gonna just have I mean not because it's Roman Catholic,

201
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,399
but they just kind of default to the I guess

202
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:13,399
what you could say is the Augustinian position. So Calvin

203
00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:17,879
and Luther, they were very Augustinian. They just defaulted to

204
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,879
that position. Most Anglicans have been very Augustinian, So the

205
00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:26,480
ethos of the Protestant world has always been the Augustinian

206
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:32,720
view of the double eternal procession of the Phillyoquay. The

207
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:37,919
best book probably would be to read something like Edwards

208
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:43,840
Kashinsky's book Philly Oakuay History of the Doctrine. We did

209
00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:46,120
a podcast on that that actually just posted to the

210
00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:49,080
podcast feed a couple of days ago. We did a

211
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,840
two or three hour podcast on that, maybe five years ago.

212
00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:54,559
So I would say that's a good one to get

213
00:16:54,559 --> 00:16:59,440
an overview. If you want to read more of the

214
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:04,359
Orthodox position, the two best would be Saint Photius's Mystagogy

215
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:11,039
and Gregory Palamas's book Appedictic Treatise on the Holy Spirit.

216
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,240
If you were to read those three books, and of

217
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,240
course there are more things that you could and should

218
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,079
read on that topic. That's not the exhaustive list, but

219
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,799
if you were to read those you would have a

220
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:32,200
very good idea of the specifics of the departure day.

221
00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:35,000
JI are one dollars. This is the fake me. I

222
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,200
was at a bookstore. I was buying books, books for Christmas,

223
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,480
and I saw tons of autobiographies people like Bush, Obama, Clinton,

224
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:47,319
Boris Johnson. Are all memoirs like good like David Rockefellers,

225
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,480
or are they all full of bs like a celebrity.

226
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,839
I would imagine most of those are bs waste of time,

227
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,119
celebrity things that they're all ghost written anway, they don't

228
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,680
write their own. They don't write those. You think Bill

229
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,680
Clintons is going to write to a six hundred page book,

230
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,119
I wouldn't waste my time. I mean, really, the only

231
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,119
the biographs I have that are relevant that I've cited

232
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:16,240
are John Roberts's biography of Cecil Rhads is good. I

233
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,960
would probably get if there's like good biographies of the Ralph,

234
00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:25,799
the Ralph Child's, those would probably be worth it. Calidrin

235
00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:30,960
Horowitz's Rockefeller's biography is very relevant. I admits everything in there,

236
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,920
and it's official biography. So but autobiographies, I mean, I

237
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,960
don't I can't imagine like the typical political people like

238
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,119
a Obama, Clinton and those sound terrible. But John C.

239
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,599
Lilly's autobiography is pretty revealing. He meets all kinds of

240
00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:51,319
stuff in there, So I guess it just depends on

241
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:57,640
the person. But typically those like Obama Clinton, like the

242
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,559
president level, those are all going to be whitewashed propaganda.

243
00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:04,279
Shout out to everybody in the chat. Well, I saw

244
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,079
Tristan here and then I saw FDA here and they

245
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,680
just left so kind of depressed. Now my friends just leave.

246
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,839
When I do a live stream, they leave me. I

247
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:23,319
guess I gotta just give up. They just leave. What

248
00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:25,480
would you do if I just cried live on live

249
00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:28,119
stream right now? Just what if I just started crying

250
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,279
NonStop for like an hour? What would y'all do? This

251
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,200
is the new me, though, this is the new loving me.

252
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,200
Way too mean, so mean, I'm not I'm still not

253
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,720
exactly sure what I did. What that was mean? I mean,

254
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,839
I don't know. Its fat jokes against it, borrow is

255
00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:46,200
that What counts is that it's the only thing I

256
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,279
can think of. It comes up.

257
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:49,559
Speaker 3: Mmm.

258
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 4: But I'm sure that I have done things wrong. For sure.

259
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:58,599
We could we all, so we could all be more loving.

260
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,079
I need to lean into love. I'm gonna be a

261
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,400
love slag, wen, That's all I'm trying to say. I'm

262
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,319
gonna lean into being loving. I just it just makes

263
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,880
me mad that everyone thinks that love, love and being

264
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,440
loving is just acting kind of gay, you know.

265
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like it's just talking like this. And and

266
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,119
if you talk like this and you're solved and you're

267
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,640
non threatening, it also makes you really spiritual. I'm really

268
00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:33,039
spiritual because I talk like this and I'm loving, and

269
00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:34,240
I pray all the time.

270
00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 4: But no, I'm not talking about I ain't talking about

271
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:40,839
crying on stream. I ain't talking about none of that.

272
00:20:43,559 --> 00:20:47,119
Well essays on Theologian Philosophy on Kindle. No, sorry, mine

273
00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:50,319
says for ten dollars. I didn't make that book. I

274
00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:54,200
don't even know who made the book, and I couldn't

275
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,640
get it pulled down, so I just decided to sell it.

276
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,799
So I don't know anything about it. I've never made

277
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,240
a put a book on Kindle. I think I still

278
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,079
turn call it what is on Kindle, but I have

279
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,200
a publisher for that, so he does all that. I

280
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,440
don't want to think about it. Welcome, everybody, appreciate it.

281
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,759
It's time to open it up. Now here's the challenge,

282
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,920
because as soon as I say I'm gonna try to

283
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,799
be more loving, people think they're gonna confuse that with

284
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,440
being nice. I don't know if I'm gonna be nice.

285
00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,599
I don't know about that. So I don't think you're

286
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,759
gonna weasele your way in here and bully me around. No, son,

287
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,880
no sir, Because this is a challenge for me to

288
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:45,759
balance out my good natured ribbing with being loving. I'll

289
00:21:45,759 --> 00:21:51,680
being nice. You're gonna get guaranteed love. You're not gonna

290
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,680
get any guaranteed nice. That's how That's how we roll

291
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960
around here all right now, the way it works, as

292
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,599
you guys know, if it's been or new here, we

293
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,160
got only ninety seven, we had over two hundred. We

294
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,240
had like almost three hundred the other day. Is it

295
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,200
because it's a Monday night. I don't know what's going on,

296
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,799
but you request to speak. I'm talking about on Twitter,

297
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,000
on YouTube. We're doing good. We always get We're already

298
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,720
close to one thousand. We're on YouTube. Shout out what's up?

299
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,200
By changing my jokes? Hell, no, I just told you

300
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,279
I'm not. None of the good natured ribbing is going away,

301
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,599
None of the impressions are going away. I don't exactly

302
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,200
know what's going away, that's the thing. But I want

303
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:49,799
to be more loving, just without changing anything. Jokes on you,

304
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,039
y'all thought I was gonna turn into some dumb hippie

305
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:55,519
psych I'm gonna be meaner than ever in twenty twenty five.

306
00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:58,400
I'm just kidding. I'm gonna be more loving, but without

307
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,599
changing any of my existing ways. So that's the challenge,

308
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,759
That's what I'm saying, man, that's the challenge part. All right,

309
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,279
enough of this nonsense. People are getting frustrated with the

310
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:14,720
apping and the pontificating in the hot air, the bloviating

311
00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,960
real Calie Prepper. Did Lord Valdimore get replaced? That's the

312
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,720
funniest conspiracy I've seen this last week. But I did

313
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,000
that Lord Baltimore changed like he's wearing a He's a

314
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,359
CIA clone? Yes, Alex is a CIA clone. Brother Fresh?

315
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,160
That sounds like a like a rat name from the Ages,

316
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,720
Brother Fresh, Dougie Fresh? What's that man.

317
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 3: As Brother Fresh? Here?

318
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,079
Speaker 6: I didn't forget to unmute hey man, it's unrelated to

319
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,119
the topic, but I just wanted to ask, Like I

320
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,480
was watching Fish Dank and Sam mentioned.

321
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: That you guys are going to have like a podcast

322
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,319
or something. Is that true?

323
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 7: Like, are you going to have a separate podcast or

324
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:01,400
is that just like a gaslight?

325
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 4: Did you not look at my Twitter? Profile, it says

326
00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:07,720
writer for the sam Hidro.

327
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: Oh damn, okay, that's cool, right, excited for that? Man,

328
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:13,319
I have a good one, all right.

329
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 4: Thank you appreciate it. Yeah, Like I said, I might

330
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,119
have had had had a hand in the p O

331
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,000
T y the party. How did I have a hand

332
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,599
in the party? What's the party?

333
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 3: You say?

334
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 4: The party? No, the party? What's the party? Post of

335
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:34,319
the year. I'm talking about sam Hi's post of the year, son,

336
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:37,720
or might have had had a hand in that? How

337
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:42,720
is that? I will leave you to speculate and think

338
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:50,960
on that, son Jose. The way that the way it

339
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:53,640
works is your question to speak. You come up, you

340
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:54,720
unmute yourself. What's up?

341
00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: Man?

342
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:56,279
Speaker 8: Oh?

343
00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 4: Hey, Jay?

344
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,599
Speaker 3: What's going on? Had a quick question for you?

345
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,519
Speaker 9: Also, Merry Christmas Eve to all the Christians that celebrate.

346
00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 4: On the seventh, the true Orthodox Christmas.

347
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 3: The true old calendar Christians now.

348
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 4: The only calendar Christmas.

349
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:15,279
Speaker 3: Okay, so kind of to the chase.

350
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 9: So, I was reading through the Old Testament, and I'm

351
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,480
just getting through the New Testament. But in many parts

352
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,920
in the Old Testament, through the Theophanes, there's many mentions

353
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,319
of God and his hands doing this and his face

354
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,079
being turned.

355
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 3: I think that was in Isaiah or Daniel and seeing

356
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,240
the face.

357
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 9: Of the Lord in those kinds you're familiar with those, Yeah.

358
00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:44,359
And in the so I'm reading through the Orthodox Study Bible,

359
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,799
and in the Orthodox Study Bible it says that these

360
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:52,759
are instances of the preincarnate person of the Son of God,

361
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,759
Jesus Christ. So I wanted to know, like it just

362
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:00,799
mentions in the Study Bible, that is to mystery. It's

363
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:04,680
a holy mystery. But how can this be the actual face?

364
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,359
Is it the face in a figurative sense, or is

365
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,640
it the actual face of the incarnate Jesus Christ just

366
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,839
in a pre incarnate form. So it would be the

367
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,000
actual person that came two thousand years ago, but in

368
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:18,039
a form that didn't come to the earth yet.

369
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

370
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:24,519
Speaker 4: It is the actual energetic manifestation of the second person

371
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:27,559
of the Godhead in time and space, known as the

372
00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:33,039
Angel of the Lord, who is Jesus Christ.

373
00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 9: Obviously it can't be a created face. But my question

374
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:42,119
is just this, when I see the word face, it's

375
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,200
not a created.

376
00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 3: Face, so it can't be.

377
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 9: But is this the person of Jesus Christ that came

378
00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:50,359
just in a pre incarnate form. So it is the

379
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,160
body in the walking Jesus Christ, but just in a

380
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,440
pre incarnate form.

381
00:26:54,839 --> 00:26:58,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is some form of God that was able

382
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,799
to manifest, just like the cloud, just like the fire,

383
00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:05,200
just like you know any of these other theophanies in

384
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,640
the Old Testament. In fact, in Leviticus nine, the theophany

385
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,599
of the cloud is called the glory of God. So yes,

386
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,440
they are all energetic theophanic manifestations in time and space,

387
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,720
and they really do show us the second person of

388
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,920
the God had so in Jesus himself, and the Gospel

389
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,680
of John says, I was the one talking to Moses

390
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,680
face to face on mal Zimmer.

391
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: And this is all to say that it must be Jesus.

392
00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 9: Because, as he says in the New Testament, nobody has

393
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,880
feed nobody has seen the Father absolutely, so it has

394
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,359
to be him, and it can't be, for example.

395
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: The Spirit.

396
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:45,799
Speaker 4: I guess right, well, Jesus says to the Pharisees in

397
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,640
John five, six, seven, eight nine, when they keep debating,

398
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,000
he says, no one sees the Father at any time,

399
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,680
But he argues that Moses saw God face to face,

400
00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:58,720
and if no one sees the Father, Jesus saying Moses

401
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,960
saw me face to face. Is in that very chapter

402
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,759
he says, if you believe Moses, you would believe in me,

403
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,279
because he wrote about me and Paul and said. Grinthians

404
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:10,599
three says that when Moses went up on the mountain

405
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,160
and when he was transfigured, excuse me, when Moses was deified,

406
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,799
when he came down from the mountain, he was seeing

407
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,279
Christ face to face on Montsima. Adam is made in

408
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,799
the garden of Eden after the image of Jesus. Jesus say,

409
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:28,559
is the second person that God had, The age of

410
00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:31,880
the Lord of the Logos, is the form of God.

411
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:35,480
He's called this all throughout the Old Testament. If you

412
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:37,160
watch my I did a three hour the off in

413
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,119
his video, and I did an older one that's another

414
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,759
three hours. He's called the glory of God, the face

415
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,799
of God, the image of God, hands of God, all

416
00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:52,119
those things referred to the second person, the Son. Okay,

417
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,799
all right, thank you, And how is it possible you

418
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,759
write to also have mentioned that there's an element of

419
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:00,359
mystery because and this is what really I think futes

420
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,559
all of the Tomistic type positions on this. If you

421
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:08,799
read Philippians too, it's famously known as the canosis passage.

422
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,440
Canosis means the in dwelling or see me, the outpouring

423
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:16,160
or this self emptying, And what that means is that

424
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,960
when the second person of the Godhead took on human nature,

425
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,920
he will fully chose not to actualize or to do

426
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:26,680
all of his powers. So he willfully stepped into time

427
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,559
and space and limited himself quote unquote to be in

428
00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:33,279
the form of a man and so forth. So that's

429
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:36,839
a great mystery, yes, but Philippians too makes it very

430
00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:40,599
clear that that's exactly what although being equal to the Father,

431
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,279
he actually entered into this limited state. And that means

432
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,160
that the Roman Catholic or the Tomistic type positions which

433
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:51,960
reduced God to pure act, what actually that would actually

434
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,200
be impossible if God was identical to pure act.

435
00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 9: Right, I'm yet to get there, but do you have

436
00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:03,359
time for one more question. It's just on the Coptic

437
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:10,160
interpretation of Christology. So I understand there's a there's a

438
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,640
misunderstanding on their part. Well, I guess from the Eastern

439
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,400
Christian lens that they understand Christ to have both the

440
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,359
divine and human nature, but they create I guess a

441
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,400
third category out of that and that becomes a new

442
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,680
thing in Christ, whereas the Eastern Orthodox say that that

443
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,880
the person of Jesus is both the divine nature and

444
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,400
the human nature working as one, but they don't create

445
00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:41,759
a new category for that like the like the cops do.

446
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:44,599
Speaker 3: Maybe I didn't explain that correct, but.

447
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 4: Well it's halfway correct. So you're right that we argue

448
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:52,680
that their position leads to and is a tertium quid.

449
00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:55,720
That's a new third thing, is what the phrase tertiam

450
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:58,519
quid means. It means that it's not fully human, not

451
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:02,720
fully divine. It's not the Orthodox position of a hypostatic

452
00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:05,279
union of the two that retains the properties. It's a

453
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,240
new third thing. And part of the reason that they

454
00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:10,839
have that confusion, I also think is a lack of

455
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,240
clarity on the essence energy distinction. Because the way that

456
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,240
the reunion is a real deification of the human nature

457
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:20,440
is through the uncreated energies of the Sun deifying the

458
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,759
human nature that he assumed. They typically are somewhat confused

459
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,160
on the energy's doctrine, and so they think that if

460
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,680
we say there's a continued distinction between the natures after

461
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,839
the union, that that's a separation and division, and there's

462
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,799
not a real deification of Christ human nature when the

463
00:31:36,839 --> 00:31:40,559
six Ecumenical Council stresses how he was deified and goes

464
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:43,480
into the doctrine of the energies. Saint John Damascus in

465
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,559
Book three of the Only Orthodox Faith, chapter fifteen, talks

466
00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:50,160
about the essence sentergy, distinction and christology and how Christ

467
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,000
transmitted to his human nature the uncreated energies that deify it.

468
00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:59,680
But strictly speaking, the hypostasis is not a product of

469
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,799
the carnation. Hypostasis is the ground of the incarnation because

470
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:06,799
it's the second hypostasis of the Godhead who took on

471
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:12,480
human nature, and the hypostasis as product view is actually

472
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,920
condemned at the Fifth Council. So there's a lot of

473
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,960
different things and nuances going on and what we're talking about,

474
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,119
but ultimately you're correct that we believe that their position

475
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,880
is inconsistent. It leads to a tertiam quid. And we

476
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,599
also believe that even though the natures are distinct after

477
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,839
the union, there is a real deification of the human

478
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:31,599
nature of Christ.

479
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,119
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, that's all I got. Thank you.

480
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,319
Speaker 4: We've been doing a series on this too. I don't

481
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:39,519
know if you have you seen the series.

482
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:42,759
Speaker 3: What's the name of the series?

483
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 4: Oriental Orthodoxy refuted, I.

484
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: Must have seen it.

485
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:50,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's just one of those things where you know

486
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,720
where I look it up online after, you know, taking

487
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,799
a look at some of these clips, and it's just

488
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:57,440
hard to get a conceptual understanding.

489
00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm just too a low IQ, but no, this

490
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:02,720
is so we're doing a long term series. We've only

491
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,880
done two of them and they're like three hours each,

492
00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:10,279
So I would say start with our series and watch

493
00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:12,960
the first two. We'll be doing the third one soon.

494
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,440
The only reason we haven't is that Kai got married,

495
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,880
so he's on his honeymoon. Good for him.

496
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: But I'll kick it out when it comes out.

497
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 4: Then, well, are part one and two are already out?

498
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,160
So you go to my channel and type in Oriental

499
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,599
Orthodoxy refuted, you'll see part one and part two. But

500
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,039
thank you great questions, Civic Crisis. What's up? And by

501
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:36,279
the way, if you want books, you can request come

502
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:37,839
back in. I'll tell you what books you want to get.

503
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,319
But we also mentioned the books in the series.

504
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:44,839
Speaker 3: For me to go ahead.

505
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:45,599
Speaker 4: Sure, what's up?

506
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: Mean? Hey, what's up? I got like a few things

507
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:49,519
to bring up.

508
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:55,039
Speaker 10: Okay, now, for one, like, I'll just say you are

509
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,119
very knowledgeable, and we probably I'll just say for certain

510
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,240
we agree on a lot of things, even a lot

511
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,039
of things that I've learned from you over the you know,

512
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,320
past year or two or three or whatever, And so

513
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,599
I do appreciate.

514
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: All these spaces you do and whatnot.

515
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,199
Speaker 10: But so with people who are less educated so much

516
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,079
but still have like a strong faith and stuff, you know,

517
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:25,400
and education to the basics and whatnot. But you wouldn't

518
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,079
would you wouldn't necessarily say that like like those people

519
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,800
are less like lesser?

520
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: Would you?

521
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: Everyone is lesser than me? Is the easiest way I

522
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:37,360
would put it.

523
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 3: Fair.

524
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,599
Speaker 4: I'm just kidding, what do you mean lesser?

525
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,119
Speaker 10: No, just like their faith could still be accepted with

526
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,800
the same grace, right.

527
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know the parameters of people's individual status.

528
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,320
I don't, and we don't really judge that typically speaking. Yeah,

529
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,360
but I think what we do is we U go

530
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,360
buy people's public profession and we tell people if we

531
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,719
think that's wrong, that's that's wrong. So but I can't

532
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,400
hider and say you're going to hell, buddy, Like I

533
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:12,719
don't I.

534
00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 10: Know that, No, problem anyway, we'll move past that anyway.

535
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:20,920
So I am Protestant anyway, and you know, I like

536
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,400
to join more of.

537
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: Your spaces in the future. I think we've talked in

538
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:24,800
the past a.

539
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 10: Little bit, but so so again I'll reiterate that we

540
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,079
agree on a lot of things, right, I think you would.

541
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,480
You'd probably agree on that too, like such as like

542
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:38,599
many things I could name that we would agree on.

543
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 3: Like I just said, I agree.

544
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 10: With most of the things that you say as well,

545
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:45,639
so we can like acknowledge that, yeah, it's just.

546
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 3: Or you would accept a prize in saying that.

547
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, But agreeing is not the criteria. Like the

548
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,320
the way Orthodox Christianity works is it's holistic. So for example,

549
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,559
I can't be like, I'm seventy five percent Worthox, but

550
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,760
like thirty you know, twenty five percent of their doctions

551
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,800
that they teach I reject. It doesn't work like that.

552
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,159
It's a holistic package. So you can't be consistently like

553
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,679
I'm thirty percent Orthodox, but I'm seventy percent Protestant. There's

554
00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:16,519
no graded scale. It's it's a packaged deal.

555
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, of course, yeah, I get your points there, But

556
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,079
generally we agree in the Trinity, we agree in like

557
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:23,159
several different things.

558
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 4: Well I don't think we do. So no, we don't

559
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,320
even agree on the Trinity. So I mean I think

560
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,679
that you intend, as a Protestant as most like a

561
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,480
Roman Catholic to profess and believe in the Trinity. But

562
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,880
Protestants do not actually believe in the Orthodox doction the Trinity.

563
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 10: See, that would be something I'd like to dive into more.

564
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,559
But first let's just uh, you know, accept that response

565
00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:48,400
you gave and whatnot, and how we'll just stand on that.

566
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,599
So yeah, and that's you know, giving respect to that

567
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:56,400
we do have things, even though you may think they're different,

568
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:02,920
I think generally or similar. So one thing I wanted

569
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,000
to bring up actually, and this is kind of why

570
00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:09,760
I rose the hand here. I wanted to just kind

571
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,000
of find out what you what your perspective is on

572
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:19,920
how and also let me first state for clarification, like Protestant.

573
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 3: Is very wide ranging kind of demographic.

574
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 10: Me I'm more of like a Nordic type ancestry, just

575
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,519
so you understand, but anyway, it and I am American

576
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:37,719
right for over one hundred plus years.

577
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,559
Speaker 3: Of this type of years.

578
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 10: Well, my ancestry dates back to that type of Nordic

579
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,880
Christianity and they immigrated here.

580
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: One hundred plus years ago.

581
00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 4: Is what do you mean.

582
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Lutheran. So you know, I'm and I'm

583
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:55,679
also willing to accept the faults in that.

584
00:37:56,159 --> 00:38:03,079
Speaker 10: But anyway, it does appear with modern data that you know,

585
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:08,480
not only Catholics and Orthodox. And just to also clarify,

586
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:11,519
and you mentioned this too, like Oriental Orthodox Eastern Orthodox.

587
00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:13,519
There's a difference there, and you've been kind of posting

588
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:13,840
about that.

589
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: Is that correct? That's great?

590
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 10: Actually kind of interested in hearing more about that later.

591
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,559
But so it does appear with this data I've been reviewing.

592
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,599
This isn't a gotcha or anything. Just want to get

593
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:35,960
your honest feedback. These kind of demographics of faith Jewish, Catholic, Orthodox,

594
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,400
Black Protestant, they tend to be, you know, at least

595
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,320
fifty to one hundred plus percent more gay accepting than

596
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,639
like white Evangelical Christians.

597
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,039
Speaker 3: Kind of what's your view on that.

598
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:55,679
Speaker 4: I don't think the Orthodox Church is accepting them gay

599
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,039
at all. In fact, I mean you noticed the Orthodox

600
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:00,679
countries are famously not gay. That's why they targeted by

601
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:01,960
NATO in the State Department.

602
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd be correct in that, but I mean in

603
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,360
the US.

604
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 4: No, I think that the Roman Catholic Church has notoriously,

605
00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:15,960
according to some accounts, seventy gay Norvusordier priests. Most of

606
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,960
the Protestant churches are pro gay, so that's all well known.

607
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely Again, I think you're correct about that.

608
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 10: But the specifically the white even those are kind of

609
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,840
non Evangelical Protestants. But if you look at the Evangelical Protestants,

610
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,119
it's different. It's you know, way less accepting of that

611
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,159
gay marriagerect So what's the point, Well, it's just it

612
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,920
does you know, looking specifically at the data, I'd be

613
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,679
have to share it in the in the Purple Pale

614
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:46,519
down there, but you know, it does say that Orthodox

615
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:50,679
are fifty percent more accepting of gay than these white events.

616
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,519
Speaker 4: I would have to do well comparing that with like

617
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:58,159
Eastern European countries, uh in Russia, that would have to

618
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:02,280
do with the Americanists and fluence rather than the Orthodox position.

619
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 10: You know, that'd be fair, but then the same influence

620
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,880
would it would also be you know, onto the white

621
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,960
Evangelical presence, but they tended to resist that or whatnot.

622
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 4: That's funny because the Evangelicals were the Protestants one hundred

623
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,400
years ago, which eventually cucked to that stuff within time.

624
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,840
And I think that if you look at the looking

625
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,880
at your data here, if you look at the tendency

626
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,760
of Protestant well, excuse evangelical seminaries, they cook over time too.

627
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,280
In fact, Southern Babasiological Seminary just started pushing critical race

628
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,159
theory and hired three or four different CRT professors. So

629
00:40:44,199 --> 00:40:46,119
I don't understand what this is supposed to prove. You

630
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:50,039
think you're going to prove some theological position by tallying

631
00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:52,519
up how much gaye and how much percentage of gay?

632
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 10: There is no The data exists without me analyzing it.

633
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 4: It's just that what is it supposed to know? That's

634
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,920
not true because you're bringing the data for a reason.

635
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,320
So what's the purpose of the data?

636
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,079
Speaker 3: Well, it does exist without me analyzing it.

637
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 4: That is true, maybe not in your point of bringing

638
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:10,599
it is what.

639
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 3: You know?

640
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,679
Speaker 10: Just that this is the what appears to be the

641
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,920
objective reality, which.

642
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 3: Is that you know?

643
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 10: This is the question I get when I ask this

644
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:24,639
is what what's my point?

645
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: But I think that that misses the point of the data.

646
00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: Okay, so you come from a whole you come from

647
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:36,320
a Lutheran background. What's the Lutheran position on all that stuff?

648
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: Reject gay marriage?

649
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 4: No, that's absolutely not true. I'm not talking about Missouri sid,

650
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,480
I'm talking about the mainline Lutherans, you.

651
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,079
Speaker 10: Know, And that would get to a specific specificity of

652
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:54,639
like what my denomination is. I will tell you my

653
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,199
denomination rejects gay marriage.

654
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,559
Speaker 4: So well, you started by saying that you're a hundred

655
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:06,400
year proud you know, lu Nordic immigrant, and the mainline

656
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,559
Lutheran Church caved decades ago to the things that you're

657
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:10,320
trying to champion.

658
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,519
Speaker 10: Here the main line one did I'm not exactly I

659
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:16,119
don't follow that one. And I did acknowledge the faults

660
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:19,880
that there are faults and willing to totally acknowledge.

661
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 4: And so by that, by that argument, you should become

662
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,679
some sort of like independent fundamentalist Baptist. If that's the

663
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,400
one that I'm not a Baptist, I said, if this

664
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:32,480
is what shows us the true Church, then you should

665
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,280
be a Baptist because whatever. So we're going to go

666
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,199
about what the largest number of people in a denomination

667
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,119
that rejects the gay marriages of the true Church No, it's.

668
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 10: Just that you can see the followers of the churches

669
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,320
and see what they believe in, and you can see

670
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,840
that there are some serious issues.

671
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 4: So we only judge it by and so we judge

672
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,159
it by America's numbers. Is that right?

673
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 3: Well, we are in America, and we're in America.

674
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 4: What does any of us have to deal with what's

675
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:02,960
true or false?

676
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,159
Speaker 10: Well, we believe this is another thing back to what

677
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:11,840
we also agree on. We believe that gay marriage is wrong, correct,

678
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,719
and that's that's a truth. Now we can look at

679
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,960
some of the peers that we have within these designated

680
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,199
demographics of faith and we can see some serious issues there.

681
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,280
So that's kind of what I'm kind of raising attention

682
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,840
to and maybe get your feedback on that.

683
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just don't think that the numbers of various

684
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,800
percentages and denominations in America approves or disproves anything.

685
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:37,119
Speaker 10: Well, I'm not trying to disprove, like you know, on

686
00:43:37,159 --> 00:43:41,119
a macro level of an entire religious belief, but just

687
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:41,960
looking you.

688
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 4: Know more, is it. Let me ask you a question,

689
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:49,239
is it possible for a cult Islam to be anti homosexual?

690
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,039
Speaker 3: Well, I think anything is possible with God's.

691
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,639
Speaker 4: Okay, are Muslims anti on the on paper?

692
00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 10: That's pretty uh, you know, that's generally I would say no.

693
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,199
Speaker 4: No, Sunni Islam is officially anti homosexual and anti gay marriage.

694
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,239
So what are you talking.

695
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 10: About, Well, you're generally yeah, yeah, you may be correct

696
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,360
in that, but are that would.

697
00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:18,639
Speaker 3: Be you know, wrong right now.

698
00:44:18,639 --> 00:44:21,039
Speaker 4: I didn't say they all are. I'm talking about numbers

699
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:27,000
and percentages of the professing Sunni majorities of Islam on

700
00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:29,840
paper or anti gay marriage. So what does it have

701
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,599
to do with what's true or false?

702
00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: Well, that would be one thing that they have correct then.

703
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 4: For those that believe that, right, and so all of

704
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,960
what you've argued gets you nowhere.

705
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,159
Speaker 3: All right, that's fair.

706
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 10: But my point is that I'm not trying to, you know,

707
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,039
make this macro argument.

708
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 4: I'm trying to make what's your point micro what's a

709
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,239
micro argument about the point of the debate today is

710
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,639
what's true and false? So your micro argument is kind

711
00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:57,440
of irrelevant.

712
00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 10: Okay, well, thanks for having me up anyway, but just

713
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,039
you know, conclude with like, my point of bringing this

714
00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:06,280
up is I just wanted to hear your feedback on

715
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,320
for example, you know, more specifically, with what you are

716
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,119
you know your peers? It's it does say here fifty

717
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:17,760
four percent of Orthodox Christians believe in same sex marriage,

718
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,800
So that would be an issue for you, I would think.

719
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:25,159
Speaker 4: And so by that logic is long. By that logic

720
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,400
is lom. It's true because Islam on paper has almost

721
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,639
a billion people or more than a billion, who are

722
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,440
professing to be anti gay marriage. So there you go.

723
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,800
Good job, that's a fallacy. So good job with your fallacy.

724
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:43,199
Any other arguments, Yeah.

725
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 3: I don't see how that's a fallacy, just.

726
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,679
Speaker 4: Pointing out as data, but because the data doesn't prove anything,

727
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,280
and there might be tons of factors as to why

728
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,960
that's the case. And I use the Muslim example to

729
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:59,639
show that your argument doesn't prove anything. Okay, so why

730
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:03,039
should so hold on? So why should we believe Lutheranism?

731
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:06,360
Because what I notice is it looks like you're going

732
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,519
through data to try to find some weird other way

733
00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:14,159
to say that perhaps Orthodox Christianity is not true and

734
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:18,480
your flavor of Lutheranism and white Evangelicalism is when that

735
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,920
doesn't make any sense if the mainline Lutherans all capitulated.

736
00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 10: Yeah, fair point, And I totally understand what you're saying,

737
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,039
but I don't have that view that I'm trying to

738
00:46:32,119 --> 00:46:33,840
disprove all these other.

739
00:46:33,679 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 4: Things because so you brought an argument that doesn't prove

740
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:37,079
anything to a debate.

741
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:41,159
Speaker 10: Yeah, fair, I mean I did join just now last second,

742
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:42,840
so I do apologize for that if it's a.

743
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: Little off, tokay. So do you have any other arguments

744
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,400
as to why Orthodox Christianity is not true in your position?

745
00:46:48,519 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 3: Is? Well?

746
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 10: Like I said, I actually am interested in our hearing

747
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,280
more about that. And you know, I've learned a lot

748
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,719
from you about different things, and so a lot of

749
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:58,760
things I think we would agree on.

750
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 3: Actually, let's go back to the first thing.

751
00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:02,199
Speaker 10: If you don't mind real quick about how why you

752
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,159
believe that our view of the Trinity is different than

753
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:06,719
each other here?

754
00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 4: Well, simply put, the Orthodox Church has for over a

755
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:14,920
thousand years explicitly rejected the Phillyoquay, and every major Protestant group,

756
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,039
whether Protestant, whether Lutheran or Anglican, or Calvin, believes the Philly.

757
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,639
Speaker 10: Oquay, so specifically the phillyoaquay.

758
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,039
Speaker 3: And I mean, if you don't mind, I would actually

759
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:28,559
ask you, do.

760
00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 4: You know kind of Luther and Calvin and all of

761
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,239
the Classical Reformation tradition, affirms the Augustinian.

762
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 7: I want to show off something that we're all proud of.

763
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:45,239
I've got a browser here. This is Jay Dyers, much vaunted,

764
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,599
much sought after philosophy one oh one. Now he just

765
00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:51,880
got this page up. We are just testing it out.

766
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,079
You guys are some of the first people in the

767
00:47:53,079 --> 00:47:55,800
world to see it. I want to say, for my part,

768
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,159
it's not philosophy want oh one. I think this is

769
00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:02,599
a miss mistitling. I really think is as like philosophy unleashed,

770
00:48:03,199 --> 00:48:05,639
because a philosophy want on one course, they give you

771
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,079
kind of some useless information that you can't make sense of.

772
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:12,360
Jay actually lays out, over twelve weeks, dozens and dozens

773
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,440
of hours put into just the presentation of this, let alone,

774
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,719
the hundreds and thousands of hours of research that it

775
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,440
takes to have a coherent evolution and history of the

776
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,559
origins of philosophy, the uses of philosophy, the different ways

777
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:27,440
to look at it over time, and how that has

778
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:30,679
been brought about to what we have today, which is

779
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,039
almost an absence of philosophy on the objective, logic and

780
00:48:35,119 --> 00:48:39,159
reason side, in an overabundance of woke philosophy that is

781
00:48:39,199 --> 00:48:41,559
irrational and is made up day by day as people

782
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:44,039
are like I think we should bring racism back, and

783
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:46,880
then here's a justification, and then it gets wokeified and

784
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,960
spread out, and then all of a sudden you have

785
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,159
a bunch of communist socialist ideas where you become the

786
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:54,639
property in action. You need to be able to stand

787
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:57,760
on your own ground. It helps to have a foundation

788
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,000
in philosophy because it's a method defined when you get

789
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,719
down to it. Philosophy is there because you love truth

790
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,920
enough to go and learn how to find it, because

791
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,480
it's valuable. So if you're interested in things like that.

792
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,079
There is the landing page. We'll link it up in

793
00:49:12,079 --> 00:49:14,719
the notes. It is a longer once, so we'll get

794
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,239
a shorter URL for this. I'm sure Jay has a

795
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,280
link on his page. I just wanted to show it off.

796
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:20,920
Now you know what exists, you can go look for

797
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,840
it and see why this is not your father's philosophy. Right,

798
00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:28,599
So well done. I'm proud of everyone who helped to

799
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,320
produce and edit the course, and of course Jay did

800
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,320
a flawless job in presenting the course over those twelve weeks,

801
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,760
and he's a juggernaut. He's another guy just like John Bush,

802
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,079
in action all the time, doing something productive, like very

803
00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:44,920
little wasted time in his week, those one hundred and

804
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,440
sixty eight hours of being harnessed very well.

805
00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 4: Eternal double hypostatic procession of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox

806
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,440
Church famously for a thousand plus years, rejects that there

807
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,039
is a double eternal hypsit procession. The Father is the

808
00:49:59,039 --> 00:50:02,840
sole cause in the trinity, and you cannot give causation

809
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,800
to the Son because it's a unique hypostatic property that

810
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:06,679
picks out the Father.

811
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,079
Speaker 3: And why would you think that I disagreed with that?

812
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 4: Did you not hear what I said?

813
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:14,679
Speaker 3: Well?

814
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 4: I did.

815
00:50:15,039 --> 00:50:17,559
Speaker 10: It just tended to not be in plain enough English

816
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:19,800
for me to accept it on.

817
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,199
Speaker 4: First because all a Protestant professing Christians believe in the

818
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,239
Augustinian doctrine of the phillyoq waight ninety nine point nine percent,

819
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:29,400
and it's the Lutheran tradition to agree with that.

820
00:50:32,119 --> 00:50:34,559
Speaker 10: All right, Is there anything that you would suggest that

821
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:37,760
I review to better understand what you're The point you're

822
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,320
making is because I'm just not getting it.

823
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, we did a talk. You can find the podcast

824
00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:45,000
on my channel. It's called a Philly Oku Way history

825
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,960
of a doctrinal controversy. That's a good place to start.

826
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,480
And it's me Father deacin Annius and our buddy Lewis.

827
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,199
So I appreciate your comments.

828
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: If you don't mind, just what is the root of it?

829
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,519
Speaker 4: You know, what is the root of the Phillyoaks doctrine?

830
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:02,159
Speaker 3: The difference.

831
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,199
Speaker 4: Well, we would argue that Philioque messes up the trinity.

832
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,039
It creates an imbalance because you get a diad where

833
00:51:11,079 --> 00:51:14,920
you have this principle of this power that two persons share,

834
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,559
which is the property that picks out the father. The

835
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:24,079
father can't give his unique personal property to the son,

836
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:27,760
namely to be cause. So that's a diad. You would

837
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,480
have a subordination of the Holy Spirit because the Holy

838
00:51:30,519 --> 00:51:33,320
Spirit doesn't have the power to cause a person.

839
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 10: Oh well, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is subordinate.

840
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 4: If he doesn't have the power to cause a person,

841
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,679
then it's a power that he lacks that the father

842
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,440
and the son share, so you subordinate him.

843
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 3: Hum. Yeah, that's interesting, And again I think that gets.

844
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 10: Into what a lot of people don't actually hear when

845
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,239
they're growing up in Christianity. They like this is something

846
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,320
that is more of a compla type of thing.

847
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 4: Well, it's not just the Philly okay. I mean there's

848
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,159
a whole bunch of other things that Orthodox believe that

849
00:52:06,159 --> 00:52:11,559
obviously Protestants don't. So I mean, there's the doctrine deification,

850
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,440
there's the doctrine of you know, the reality necessity of

851
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,480
the sacraments, which Lutherans do believe professing to they at

852
00:52:19,559 --> 00:52:22,239
least profess to believe the necessity the sacraments, but we

853
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,960
don't believe in a justification by faith alone, which Lutherans

854
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,800
believe in. Luther was pretty strict on the doctrine predestination.

855
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,199
I don't know what your specific Lutheran group believes on predestination.

856
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:38,039
The Orthodox Church does not believe the Augustinian position of predestination.

857
00:52:38,119 --> 00:52:41,239
So there's plenty of things that could be listed. The

858
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,559
distinct We believe in the necessity of tradition, so we

859
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:46,800
don't believe in solar scripture. I mean, there's all kinds

860
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:47,159
of things.

861
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,639
Speaker 3: M Okay, yep, that's great.

862
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 10: So two things in response, If you want to move on,

863
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:56,039
that's cool. We'll just get these two things in response

864
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,119
real quick. But I feel like this is a conversation

865
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:01,280
that you know, obviously there's more research than you've done

866
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,920
my part to understand fully what these differences are.

867
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 3: I understand some what you're saying. But so the two

868
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,239
things i'd say is, like, you know, the thing is.

869
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 10: In my faith, I would be willing to accept that

870
00:53:15,639 --> 00:53:19,039
your faith is accurate, you know, as well as my own.

871
00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 3: Right, that's like a difference there, I think that we have.

872
00:53:22,679 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 4: That's another fallacy.

873
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,079
Speaker 10: So that's okay, you know, if you say that, that's

874
00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:33,599
fine with me. So the second thing is just totally separate.

875
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,559
Speaker 4: I mean, Luther says, if you teach works, you had

876
00:53:36,559 --> 00:53:39,159
to teach a different gospel, and he believed understand that.

877
00:53:40,639 --> 00:53:43,320
So I mean you don't believe that.

878
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 10: They're both important, right, go ahead, Yeah, I mean faith

879
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:49,960
and works are both important.

880
00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 3: Right.

881
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 4: Again, that's not the point Luther. Maybe you don't believe

882
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,119
what Luther's taught on this, I don't know, But I

883
00:53:59,119 --> 00:54:01,599
mean if for him it was a question of a

884
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:04,920
different gospel. So Paul says, you teach different gospel, you're cursed.

885
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,360
So you can talk like an ecumenist and make it

886
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,159
sound like your positions better because you accept me, but

887
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,599
my positions worse because I don't accept you. But that's

888
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,119
a fallacy, has nothing to do with which positions were false.

889
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,559
Speaker 10: That's, you know, a good point, but it's not what

890
00:54:18,599 --> 00:54:20,679
I was saying. Actually, I don't believe one is lesser

891
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:21,440
or whatnot.

892
00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 4: So but yeah, that's inconsistent because the traditional Lutheran Reformation

893
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,559
position is that my position is a false gospel. So

894
00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:31,519
which one is it?

895
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's that argument that.

896
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 10: You know, in the context of the times, things can

897
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,400
be said that are but that's not really my point.

898
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,599
Speaker 3: Okay, but you would understand that too, at the context

899
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:45,480
of the times or whatever.

900
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:46,199
Speaker 4: Okay, go ahead.

901
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 10: So anyway, I think we had a good discussion on

902
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:51,960
that for now. But let me just ask you a

903
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:59,840
totally separate questions. Do you partake in drinking?

904
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 3: Now? Call?

905
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 4: I do not.

906
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 8: That.

907
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,119
Speaker 4: What does that have to do with anything?

908
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 10: Just a personal curiosity, I guess anyway. But hey, Jay,

909
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,119
you know, it's been great talking to you. Happy New

910
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:12,239
Year to you, man, and I appreciate it always hearing

911
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:13,880
your spaces and being able to contribute.

912
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,679
Speaker 3: I think one thing we can acknowledge.

913
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:19,039
Speaker 10: Is in this data, I did share the number one

914
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,800
uh faction of acceptance to.

915
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:24,119
Speaker 4: All of this.

916
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 3: You know Satanism are the Satanists one?

917
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 10: So I mean, if you maybe closing thoughts on that,

918
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:37,119
we have these atheists, pagan Satanists and like LGBT movement

919
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,719
groups that are like becoming a massive religious base.

920
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 4: So what what what? What's the point of the alcohol course?

921
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,039
I don't understand. Where? Why what's the relevance of that?

922
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 3: Oh?

923
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:55,599
Speaker 4: Hold on it? The wrong button?

924
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 11: Here?

925
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,679
Speaker 4: My computers I can wear Are you there?

926
00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:02,519
Speaker 10: Yeah, I wouldn't have judged you either way you answered,

927
00:56:02,559 --> 00:56:04,559
I was just generally curious.

928
00:56:05,119 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 4: But why nobody's I don't care. It's just I've never

929
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,559
been asked that on his face. I'm just curious.

930
00:56:10,639 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 3: Why. Oh, perhaps on that one, you know, that unique

931
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,480
question there, but totally irrelevant. Man, don't worry about it.

932
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: Thanks, man, appreciate it.

933
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 8: Rachel, Hey, sorry if I sound bad, I'm kind of sick.

934
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,800
But I just wanted to quickly jump in and say

935
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,440
that mister fed guy there who was bringing up the

936
00:56:35,519 --> 00:56:39,320
gay stats made a very simplayer in reading those statistics,

937
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,400
which you kind of guessed and sussed out, which.

938
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 3: Is that when you look at the data he was

939
00:56:44,519 --> 00:56:46,559
referring to. I googled it found it right away.

940
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,079
Speaker 8: It even the data itself in the report says it's

941
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:55,559
basically just a reflection of the actual culture at large.

942
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:59,480
So yeah, So if you look at Greece, the Orthodox

943
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,440
there are more accepting of gay stuff or as. If

944
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,320
you look at Russia or Eastern Europe, they're not. If

945
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,679
you look at the Middle Eastern Orthodox.

946
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 3: Areas, they're not.

947
00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 8: And that the numbers in the United States are exactly

948
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,840
on par with the general population's acceptance of homosexuality.

949
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 4: So that makes sense. I mean, basically, wherever NATO goes

950
00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:28,599
is where you get get all this skittles. So but

951
00:57:28,719 --> 00:57:31,440
I thank him for bringing all his discussion that these

952
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,800
are different arguments not used to this type of bringing

953
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,559
the stats. I don't mind it. I'm not really sure

954
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,679
how it relates to which positions are true, but it

955
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,639
is relevant, I guess, to bring up the cultural influences

956
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:51,800
of the face absolutely. Now I'm looking for people that disagree.

957
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,880
So I don't have a problem with people asking to

958
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,320
speak for Q and A, which is totally fine. As

959
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,960
you can tell, you've gotten the new loving Jay who

960
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,920
was biting his lip to be patient the entire time.

961
00:58:04,639 --> 00:58:07,519
And I would like for people who disagreed to come

962
00:58:07,559 --> 00:58:11,159
to the front of the line. So I don't have

963
00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:13,559
a problem with the Q and A, but it always

964
00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:15,000
ends up being Q and A, which is fine. But

965
00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:18,840
I'm looking for the real challenge, which is can I

966
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:26,960
refrain from being mean while I debate? So let's see,

967
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,760
all right, we'll go to you guys raising your hand.

968
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,760
So next up is Nick? What's up? Nick?

969
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:41,199
Speaker 3: How can you hear me?

970
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 4: I kind of hear it. Go by the way, impressions

971
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,159
is not mean. I'm still going to personate people. It's

972
00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:47,440
not mean.

973
00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:51,239
Speaker 3: It's okay, it's okay. Anyway, I just have a question.

974
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 6: So I will be arguing from a more like skeptic

975
00:58:54,559 --> 00:58:55,920
I guess alien position.

976
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 3: You would call it alien?

977
00:58:59,079 --> 00:59:05,079
Speaker 6: Like an alien? No, like a and like what like Arien,

978
00:59:05,159 --> 00:59:09,159
you know, like you know, the stuff doing with the

979
00:59:09,239 --> 00:59:10,199
trinity and stuff.

980
00:59:12,159 --> 00:59:15,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, ok, yeah.

981
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 6: So basically you like to bring up this like transcendental

982
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,079
argument right to when when arguing with atheists and stuff,

983
00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:26,679
and so basically it's it brings up the necessity of

984
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:32,079
grounding like transcendental objects like reason itself. So basically you

985
00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:38,960
cannot reason without grounding reason itself. So so that's that's

986
00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:41,000
like a good argument, and I thought about it, But

987
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,519
still I don't see how the necessity of grounding reason

988
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:50,239
would imply a utrinity, right, because all this implies is

989
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,400
the necessity itself. But you can kind of you can

990
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:56,199
kind of solve this by platonism, right, so you can

991
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:57,280
kind of ground that and.

992
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:04,559
Speaker 4: Work Platonism has fundamental problems which make Platonism impossible. But

993
01:00:04,599 --> 01:00:06,360
what does this have to do with arianism? I thought

994
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,840
you were talking about arianism.

995
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,599
Speaker 6: No, yeah, I just I just don't see how the

996
01:00:12,679 --> 01:00:16,000
trinity comes in, right, So from the transal argument and

997
01:00:16,079 --> 01:00:18,599
why it is necessary as a whole, like in the

998
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:21,920
theology because you know, Orthodox Christians they said the things

999
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,239
to fully as to other Christians as well. I don't

1000
01:00:25,239 --> 01:00:27,639
see how that is necessary in the same way as

1001
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,679
the transcendental argument makes you know, reasoning grounding reasoning.

1002
01:00:32,039 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 4: I mean I've addressed time, addressed, I have addressed tons

1003
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:43,280
of times. Just posted on my audio feed the response

1004
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,840
to it's called Universals Conceptualism and response to doctor ed

1005
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,760
Faser and I talk about how the argument is not

1006
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:57,280
just for grounding theoretical you know, logical entities or whatever.

1007
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,599
It's it's actually an argument for an entire worldview. So

1008
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:06,440
the metaphysics that are required to have language, universals, categories,

1009
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,800
et cetera, requires a specific type of world and universe,

1010
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,679
namely one in which there is a creator. There's telos

1011
01:01:15,079 --> 01:01:20,920
tellos teleology, there's causation, there's morals, there's absolutes, there's external world.

1012
01:01:21,519 --> 01:01:23,960
All those things are part of the argument because it's

1013
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:28,000
a specific worldview and a specific metaphysic, and that requires

1014
01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:32,000
the Christian Trinity. And Platonism doesn't work because Platonism is

1015
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,719
reduced as to a monad. Platonism doesn't explain how the

1016
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,360
realm of the forums relates to this world. There's a

1017
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:44,000
dialectical tension between being in becoming. Platonism givesupremacy to the

1018
01:01:44,079 --> 01:01:47,159
one over the many. We don't have any explanation as

1019
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:49,840
to why there's many and not just a one. I mean,

1020
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,239
there's all kinds of serious problems in Platonism.

1021
01:01:54,079 --> 01:01:56,519
Speaker 6: I can see what they're saying, and I can sort

1022
01:01:56,559 --> 01:01:58,760
of see your reasoning here, But at the end of

1023
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,199
the day, like I would have to basically accept because

1024
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:04,239
that is not an argument. That's just you directing me

1025
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,760
to read more about this stuff. So would you kindly

1026
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,920
provide me, you know, if some sort of a guide

1027
01:02:10,039 --> 01:02:15,320
into like understanding this pillological position better, Like how would

1028
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,719
I actually go from the transcendental arguments to actually, you.

1029
01:02:19,679 --> 01:02:25,239
Speaker 4: Know, transcendental categories that make knowledge possible do not exist

1030
01:02:25,239 --> 01:02:28,320
in a vacuum or independent of one another. They all

1031
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,320
kind of go together. So think of all the transcendental

1032
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,559
categories in a big ball, and that they interrelate and

1033
01:02:33,639 --> 01:02:38,039
necessitate one another. And that type of a worldview requires

1034
01:02:38,599 --> 01:02:42,559
a world like the Christian position posits about God's creation,

1035
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:49,840
man's moral duties, providence, regularity over time, regular nature, identity

1036
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:55,920
over time. That specific worldview resolves all those problems like

1037
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:57,960
the one in the Many as an example. And so

1038
01:02:58,039 --> 01:03:01,519
the argument is that trans category is presuppose a certain

1039
01:03:01,559 --> 01:03:04,000
type of deity to ground all of those transmital categories,

1040
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:05,559
namely the trinitarian Christian God.

1041
01:03:08,119 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 6: All right, but you don't see any other possibilities because obviously.

1042
01:03:12,719 --> 01:03:15,719
Speaker 4: It's a holistic. It's a holistic argument, and so the

1043
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,719
other possibilities are not going to have the Christian trinitarian

1044
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,000
theistic position. They're going to have other positions that at

1045
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,679
a fundamental level, if you use, for example, change the

1046
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,199
deity that you're trying to use to ground the system

1047
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,679
like Platonism. You can't ground it in Platonism because Platonism

1048
01:03:31,719 --> 01:03:33,719
doesn't tell you how there's any similarity to the realm

1049
01:03:33,719 --> 01:03:36,360
of the forms to this realm, so you could do

1050
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:36,960
no grounding.

1051
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,559
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you for your response, I guess

1052
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:43,159
thank you.

1053
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,079
Speaker 4: Yeah. You can check out that video where we went

1054
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:48,519
into more detail. And I also did one called top

1055
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,800
ten arguments against the transcendental argument, which covers how it

1056
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,800
relates to Trinity, and I also recently put it up

1057
01:03:55,840 --> 01:04:00,519
on my podcast feed, the one about phaser. Can somebody

1058
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,280
raise your hand? If you disagree, you go to headlline

1059
01:04:04,159 --> 01:04:06,679
bye way. I appreciate your question, It's just that one's

1060
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:10,400
a really long, involved kind of response because I'm not

1061
01:04:10,519 --> 01:04:12,440
knocking you that you seem like you're on the run

1062
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:20,480
at the right track here lot thigh. So anybody who

1063
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,400
disagrees you got a headline, request to speak, and I

1064
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:25,079
give you microphone, then you on mute. What's up?

1065
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 3: Hi?

1066
01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:31,079
Speaker 12: So I'm not a Christian, but right now I believe

1067
01:04:31,159 --> 01:04:34,760
that both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have strong arguments.

1068
01:04:35,159 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 3: But right now I mean more.

1069
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 12: Toward Catholicism, because I don't know how to reshoot doctrinal

1070
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,000
development and the unity that he does.

1071
01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:47,239
Speaker 3: And the what unity?

1072
01:04:49,199 --> 01:04:52,079
Speaker 4: What do you mean? The how to refute unity? What

1073
01:04:52,079 --> 01:04:52,599
does that mean?

1074
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 13: No?

1075
01:04:53,639 --> 01:04:56,639
Speaker 12: Like that the church is one I knew that, and

1076
01:04:56,719 --> 01:05:00,719
the first millionaim there was autophalis churches, But I don't

1077
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,159
think that it was the best model.

1078
01:05:02,559 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 3: Like why couldn't it evolve?

1079
01:05:04,599 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 4: I mean it was not the First of all, it

1080
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,559
doesn't make any sense because an ecumenical council is what

1081
01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:13,039
grants autocephally. So you're basically saying that ecumenical councils error

1082
01:05:13,079 --> 01:05:14,679
if you don't believe in all cephalist churches.

1083
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,159
Speaker 12: No, I'm just saying, why couldn't it evolve to a

1084
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:19,920
bitter system?

1085
01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 3: Like right now?

1086
01:05:23,079 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 4: Well, first and foremost, there is no reason to believe

1087
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,599
in the evolution of doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church itself

1088
01:05:29,679 --> 01:05:33,199
has condemned the evolution of doctrine. An evolution of doctrine

1089
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,880
is a two edged sword, because if it can evolve

1090
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,440
to be a papacy, then it can evolve to be

1091
01:05:39,639 --> 01:05:42,239
liberal or something else. So it's a stupid position to

1092
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,079
think that doctrine evolves over time. And nobody in the

1093
01:05:45,119 --> 01:05:48,400
first thousand years of Christianity teaches that doctrine evolves over time.

1094
01:05:48,719 --> 01:05:53,719
So again to say that autocephalus existence church, the existence

1095
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:57,920
of motocephalist churches is itself a problem. Is you calling

1096
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,360
in to question the Council of Emphasis which granted it,

1097
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,760
which means that the council's error, which means that you

1098
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,039
don't believe in the Christianity the first thousand years.

1099
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 12: But couldn't you say that the trinity or anation was also, No.

1100
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 4: You cannot. No, this is a stupid argument. I'm not

1101
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:16,320
trying to call used to it. It's just a dumb

1102
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:22,400
argument because the council that confirmed the Iconodualism, the Seven

1103
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,800
Ecamenical Council, says it is not a development. It is

1104
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,760
an ancient Apostolic tradition based on the theology of the

1105
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:34,800
Hebrews and their icons and imagery and Sacramentalist principles. So no,

1106
01:06:35,079 --> 01:06:37,880
you can't again to say that, as for example, Eric

1107
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,000
Ibar does, is to reject the Seven Ecamentical Council. So

1108
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:45,199
once again, you do not believe the actual theological teaching

1109
01:06:45,239 --> 01:06:48,320
of the councils. The papal system is what you're arguing

1110
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,719
for in essentially rejecting the first size. So the other words,

1111
01:06:50,719 --> 01:06:54,639
the very argument is rejecting the theology the seven Ecamical councils.

1112
01:06:57,639 --> 01:07:02,039
Speaker 12: I think you're arguing because of a Patundy and a

1113
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:07,159
Lamenta Lue, right, correct, But doesn't these documents say more

1114
01:07:07,199 --> 01:07:10,400
about modern errors than just development.

1115
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what I said was it's a two edged sword.

1116
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:19,719
So because those documents condemned the liberal evolution of doctrine,

1117
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,840
it doesn't matter because the very principle is there that

1118
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,039
there is no evolution of doctrine. Supposedly, that's why Vatican

1119
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:29,480
one and statist cognitium argue that Vatican One was not

1120
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:31,800
an innovation or development, but it was there from the

1121
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:35,199
earliest days and that everybody believed it. So that's another

1122
01:07:35,239 --> 01:07:39,239
contradiction that the Church can have evolution of doctrine that

1123
01:07:39,599 --> 01:07:42,840
vindicates Vatican One, but also that there wasn't an evolution

1124
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:44,920
of doctrine. Everybody believe Vatican One. So it's a two

1125
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,639
faced contradictory position that Rome is always putting out, which

1126
01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:51,679
allows for all the confusion and people to justify all

1127
01:07:51,719 --> 01:07:55,320
the nonsense. No, I mean, and people even say I

1128
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,599
mean the whole reason there's a novasorto with all this

1129
01:07:57,719 --> 01:08:00,400
madness is because it evolves in your church. So what

1130
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:01,159
are you talking about?

1131
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I just want to clarify something.

1132
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:11,079
Speaker 12: So the Catholics think that the same papacy was un destroyed,

1133
01:08:11,159 --> 01:08:13,119
like when Jesus gave the keys to put it was

1134
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:14,840
like the same as.

1135
01:08:14,719 --> 01:08:15,199
Speaker 3: It is now.

1136
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 4: Vatican Ones, Vatican Ones Posture Attornis, and Satis cognitum argue

1137
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:28,319
that the Vatican One ideas are there from the earliest days,

1138
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:32,880
believed by all without question. But because there's problems for

1139
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:37,359
that view, other Roman Catholics, like Cardinal Newman, say will

1140
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:42,079
prove it with doctrinal development or evolution of doctrine. And

1141
01:08:42,119 --> 01:08:44,319
all I'm trying to tell you is that when Vatican

1142
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:48,119
One says that it's there from the beginning, but also

1143
01:08:48,199 --> 01:08:51,399
it condemns doctrinal development, as other theologians of the Roman

1144
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,399
Cello Church say there's doctrinal development, then you get Vatican

1145
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:59,439
two as the development of Vatican One. So development, I'm

1146
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,960
just telling you that once you adopt development, there's nothing

1147
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:05,079
that promises that it develops in a conservative way. It

1148
01:09:05,079 --> 01:09:09,359
can develop into a liberal way. And that's exactly what Vatican.

1149
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:16,039
Speaker 12: Two is, yes, but doesn't the liberal liberal development is

1150
01:09:16,119 --> 01:09:19,800
in the category of the modern errors that limitably condemns.

1151
01:09:20,279 --> 01:09:24,319
Speaker 4: Then you're rejecting Vatican two, which is the liberal development.

1152
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,319
Speaker 12: But like the Immaculate Conception or the assumption is not.

1153
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,359
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter because if development is admitted, there's nothing

1154
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:34,520
that guarantees that it's not going to develop in the

1155
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:38,520
liberal tradition. And I'm proving that by pointing to Vatican two,

1156
01:09:39,039 --> 01:09:41,800
which is dogma, which developed in the liberal way.

1157
01:09:43,239 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 3: Can you say, what are these liberal thing that Vatican

1158
01:09:49,039 --> 01:09:49,800
two says?

1159
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:53,600
Speaker 4: How about praying with Muslims together because Muslims worship the

1160
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:54,720
same godd as Christians.

1161
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 12: M I mean, yes, it can be liberal, but why

1162
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,560
could we just interpreted as a nice gisture like to

1163
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,479
make people more So.

1164
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 4: This is the problem. So in the first thousand years,

1165
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:17,119
it's condemned and you're excommunicated as a prelate to pray

1166
01:10:17,359 --> 01:10:22,199
in sects or synagogues with other groups. Post Vatican two,

1167
01:10:22,279 --> 01:10:24,560
it's the work of the Holy Spirit. That's a contradiction.

1168
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,760
So that's the problem with development. Development develops into Vatican

1169
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,399
to Abu Dhabi Faith Center, where we're all worshiping the

1170
01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:34,279
same God together, and you can't do it because it's condemned.

1171
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,560
It's a contradiction. How do you call crusades against Muslims?

1172
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,960
But now you can go pray in the moss towards Mecca,

1173
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:42,079
as both popes, the past two popes have done.

1174
01:10:42,319 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 12: They will say, like a content Domino, they will say

1175
01:10:46,039 --> 01:10:49,359
that it was atended only on that period and not forever.

1176
01:10:50,359 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 4: This is why you're I'm not trying. I'm really having

1177
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:55,000
a really hard time not being mean here because you

1178
01:10:55,159 --> 01:11:01,560
just admitted that dogmas condemn the dogmas don't develop in

1179
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,560
a liberal way, and then you just told me the

1180
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:06,199
cantat Domino is for that period and not for forever.

1181
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:07,960
You don't see that as a contradiction.

1182
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:15,199
Speaker 12: Yeah, I see your point. I see your point. Yeah,

1183
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:17,840
that's all for me. Thank you for answering my questions.

1184
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, great questions. Yeah. And I'm not trying to be rude.

1185
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:26,840
I'm just really see you're of love, man, See you're

1186
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:32,439
of love, dude, chilling out fair questions. I understand. I've

1187
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,520
been where you're at. I had to work through the

1188
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,439
calg Orthodox issue for many, many, many years. So it's

1189
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:49,640
all good, dude, the man cave. I don't understand how

1190
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,880
that we get up to sixteen hundred. Is it something

1191
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,159
to do with YouTube? I don't get it, like it

1192
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:56,359
gets out. We got up to sixteen hundred, which is

1193
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:02,399
one of my highest live stream audiences numbers wise. I

1194
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:07,159
think one time we had two thousand. Maybe Crucible dumped

1195
01:12:07,199 --> 01:12:10,720
into into here. I'm not sure, but I noticed, like

1196
01:12:11,039 --> 01:12:14,920
it's the wildest fluctuations that I see on my control screen.

1197
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:17,560
It goes from nine hundred to sixteen hundred, to nine

1198
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:21,039
hundred to sixteen hundred to nine hundred to thirteen hundred's

1199
01:12:21,399 --> 01:12:24,079
are are there really five six hundred people just dipping

1200
01:12:24,159 --> 01:12:26,920
out within like two seconds? I don't know who knows

1201
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:35,199
what's going on. I'm mute, man, what's up? I was

1202
01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:36,720
about to eat a ginger chew, but I was like

1203
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:38,439
that ginger she's been sitting there for like two months.

1204
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:40,439
I don't think I'm gonna eat that. What's up? Man,

1205
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,960
I'm mute. You raise your hand. You don't want to talk,

1206
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:44,680
man cave, I'm mute.

1207
01:12:45,199 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, I didn't even know I was muted.

1208
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,159
Speaker 13: I was actually chatting with you, but you didn't hear

1209
01:12:50,159 --> 01:12:50,960
anything I was saying.

1210
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,159
Speaker 4: Well that's why I always say I'm mute.

1211
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:55,039
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1212
01:12:55,319 --> 01:12:59,239
Speaker 13: No, So I've been listening to the channel for a

1213
01:12:59,319 --> 01:13:01,720
little while and you know, just to spice you know,

1214
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,600
some some things up, just to give some of my background.

1215
01:13:05,399 --> 01:13:08,880
I'm an atheist and I just, uh, you know, I

1216
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:13,159
grew up in the church, and there are, in my opinion,

1217
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:15,159
you know, very reasonable.

1218
01:13:16,319 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 3: Steps that I took to arrive where I'm at.

1219
01:13:19,039 --> 01:13:20,560
Speaker 11: So, you know, I think, you.

1220
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 3: Know, I love conversations.

1221
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,239
Speaker 13: I'm not a big debate person, but I have had

1222
01:13:25,319 --> 01:13:27,479
interesting conversations with Christians.

1223
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 3: I was in church for New Years.

1224
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,279
Speaker 13: So I'm not coming for a place where I think

1225
01:13:31,319 --> 01:13:33,800
that Christians are bad people or anything of that nature.

1226
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,359
Speaker 3: I will maybe propose some of you know, a couple.

1227
01:13:39,039 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 13: Of reasons why I ended up where I am, and

1228
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,239
I wanted to maybe get your viewpoint. I don't I

1229
01:13:44,279 --> 01:13:46,479
don't think that will agree, but I think it may

1230
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:51,479
you know, lead to some interesting conversation. Right, So I'll

1231
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,800
just get yeah, I'll just get right to the point.

1232
01:13:54,199 --> 01:13:56,800
So one of one of the you know, things that

1233
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,640
I started to think about, you know, when I was

1234
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,000
really studying the word, and I'm telling you I studied

1235
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:07,880
it was just the thought that God is perfect? Do

1236
01:14:08,239 --> 01:14:10,079
you do you believe that God is perfect?

1237
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:11,119
Speaker 4: Yes?

1238
01:14:12,119 --> 01:14:17,079
Speaker 13: Okay, so like everything God does is perfect?

1239
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right?

1240
01:14:19,279 --> 01:14:24,520
Speaker 13: So for me, you know, I'm reading the Bible and

1241
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:30,079
God was perfect in the Old Testament too, right, So

1242
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:36,479
why what part of that perfection included drowning babies.

1243
01:14:36,159 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 10: During the flood?

1244
01:14:37,159 --> 01:14:41,279
Speaker 13: Like God's omni present, so he's like everywhere, he's like

1245
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:42,720
watching babies drown.

1246
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:48,760
Speaker 4: Well, God has the authority over life and death. So

1247
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,720
if you're going to say that's wrong, Like, on what

1248
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:53,239
basis is it wrong.

1249
01:14:54,159 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 13: Because babies are drowning, Like drowning is a horrible way

1250
01:14:58,520 --> 01:14:59,359
to die.

1251
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 4: But the universe is a cold, meaningless series of determined

1252
01:15:04,359 --> 01:15:09,199
causal effects, causal chains, Like, what's what's wrong with it?

1253
01:15:09,319 --> 01:15:12,159
Speaker 13: Because you know we have things like natural disasters?

1254
01:15:12,279 --> 01:15:13,520
Speaker 3: Right, we have earthquakes.

1255
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, If your view is true,

1256
01:15:16,159 --> 01:15:17,840
why is it wrong? Or what does it mean for

1257
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:19,680
someone to be wrong? Why is that bad?

1258
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 13: Because if I was perfect, I'd figure out.

1259
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 3: It another way.

1260
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 4: No, but I'm saying, if there is no God, what's

1261
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:28,880
the basis for saying anything is wrong?

1262
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 13: Again, like the premise that you're you know, asserting that

1263
01:15:36,119 --> 01:15:41,239
the hasc tod an objective morality view, we as human

1264
01:15:41,319 --> 01:15:43,920
beings are trying to figure this thing out.

1265
01:15:44,239 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 4: Okay, so the so if there's not an objective morality,

1266
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:47,720
then that's I'm.

1267
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 13: Just if I could, I would take like ten seconds.

1268
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,079
So like century after century, right, I think we get

1269
01:15:53,119 --> 01:15:55,760
a lot of things wrong. But if you look at

1270
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:58,439
how we treat each other to day versus a hundred

1271
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:02,159
years ago, twenty years ago, thousand years ago, I think

1272
01:16:02,199 --> 01:16:04,000
we're gradually getting things.

1273
01:16:04,319 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 4: Okay, so we're better than we used to be. What's

1274
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:08,359
the benchmark for what's better?

1275
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 13: Just general happiness, general health?

1276
01:16:14,279 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 4: Why does any of that matter? We're just meaningless cogs

1277
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,960
and a determined machine universe. What does happiness even mean?

1278
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,520
Speaker 13: Because in your view, I'm asking your view, Yeah, I'm

1279
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:29,399
telling I'm telling you because in your view, no, because

1280
01:16:29,399 --> 01:16:31,079
you feel like God gives us a purpose.

1281
01:16:31,159 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 4: Right, Well, there's also the principle I'm making a more

1282
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,920
philosophical point about teleology, and I'm saying that if the

1283
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,680
universe has no purpose, there's no purposiveness, then there's not

1284
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,720
actually anything that's all actions are equalized, they just are.

1285
01:16:46,119 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 13: So I disagree because I feel like we all can

1286
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,039
give our lives purpose and.

1287
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're a meaningless being in a meaningless universe,

1288
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:02,479
and so your petty little to oral subjective purpose doesn't

1289
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:06,199
mean anything ultimately. I mean, you can call my No,

1290
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:08,720
I mean is that your Is that consistent with the position?

1291
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:12,079
Speaker 3: I mean, you're you're calling my time that I spent.

1292
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,039
Speaker 13: With my family over the holidays and the joy that

1293
01:17:14,079 --> 01:17:16,720
we had and the presence that I made and took.

1294
01:17:17,079 --> 01:17:19,399
Speaker 4: In the big picture? Is that not true that in

1295
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,439
the big picture, in your position, it's beingless.

1296
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,119
Speaker 13: It's it's I and my family had an amazing.

1297
01:17:26,159 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 4: This is all subjective. These are emotional appeals. That's a fallacy.

1298
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,079
Speaker 3: It's well, it's to you.

1299
01:17:32,119 --> 01:17:34,399
Speaker 4: But my argument, no, it's not to me. You don't

1300
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:37,159
so you don't think there's a fallacies that's all subjective.

1301
01:17:37,239 --> 01:17:39,159
Speaker 3: I think I think that us as human.

1302
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,560
Speaker 4: Beings are fallacy subjective. I think that So you're just

1303
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,920
you're not here to preach, dude. Can you debate or not?

1304
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:47,600
Speaker 3: No, I'm telling you.

1305
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,159
Speaker 4: Can you you're telling me. I'm asking you if if

1306
01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:53,479
fallacies and the laws of logic or subjective.

1307
01:17:55,319 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 13: It depends on the argument. There are this argument and

1308
01:17:58,079 --> 01:17:59,359
the objective arguments.

1309
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 4: Well, we're talking about what we're talking about, that's what

1310
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:04,920
I'm referring to. Obviously.

1311
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,359
Speaker 13: Yeah, I think there's an objective right or wrong between me.

1312
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 4: So you made an emotional appeal bringing up your family

1313
01:18:11,119 --> 01:18:14,600
at the holidays, and I'm saying that that's a fallacy,

1314
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,159
and you're saying that that's my opinion. So there's not fallacies.

1315
01:18:18,399 --> 01:18:21,159
Speaker 3: I'll conclude my magin my argument is.

1316
01:18:21,279 --> 01:18:23,119
Speaker 4: You didn't make an argument, you made a fallacy.

1317
01:18:23,239 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 3: I will, I will.

1318
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:25,319
Speaker 4: I'm going to come now, hold on, I want to

1319
01:18:25,359 --> 01:18:28,039
before you go on, I need to know if fallacies

1320
01:18:28,119 --> 01:18:32,600
exist or if they're subjective. Yes, okay, So there's laws

1321
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:33,640
of logic? What are those?

1322
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:36,199
Speaker 3: Well, if I can, So.

1323
01:18:36,119 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 4: You're not going to address the questions. You're not. You can't.

1324
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,279
You're not here to preach. What are there laws of

1325
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:40,880
logic or not?

1326
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:42,119
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1327
01:18:42,359 --> 01:18:44,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay? And where are those? What are those in

1328
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:45,600
a meaningless universe?

1329
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 13: If they're a verifiable truths and falsities and that we

1330
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,079
can test, those are very good gauges.

1331
01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:56,319
Speaker 4: Okay, how do you test a law of logic?

1332
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 14: Again?

1333
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,199
Speaker 13: Are we talking about morality or other things as science?

1334
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 4: Okay? So you don't even know what you're talking about.

1335
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,920
You're not even you don't even know, You're like not

1336
01:19:08,039 --> 01:19:10,520
even in the game. I'm talking about the laws of

1337
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,600
logic and what they are and where they are and

1338
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:17,840
how they're justified because you said they do exist.

1339
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:19,600
Speaker 13: Okay, where you give an example, because I had a

1340
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,760
very simple point I was just trying to close off.

1341
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:22,359
Speaker 3: With in ten seconds.

1342
01:19:22,359 --> 01:19:24,159
Speaker 4: Well, you made a fallacy and I called out the

1343
01:19:24,199 --> 01:19:26,760
fallacy of an emotional appeal when you started saying that,

1344
01:19:27,159 --> 01:19:29,600
how dare you say that my time with my family

1345
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:31,800
doesn't have any meaning? And I'm saying, that's an emotional appeal,

1346
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,359
it's relevant to you today, and you're saying that's why

1347
01:19:34,359 --> 01:19:36,960
I said, well, what a minute. You said that's subjective,

1348
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,600
and I said, no, an emotional appeal is a fallacy,

1349
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,600
it's not subjective. That's why I'm asking you if laws

1350
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,840
of logic are real or subjective? And you said they're real,

1351
01:19:46,159 --> 01:19:47,880
And now I'm asking you how they're real?

1352
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 3: What are they?

1353
01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 4: Where are they? What's the justification for believing those things

1354
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:51,840
in an atheist universe?

1355
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:56,560
Speaker 13: Well, again, like I said, I will grant you that

1356
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:57,760
there are laws of logic.

1357
01:19:57,960 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 3: I'm I'm not well for questioned?

1358
01:20:00,119 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 4: So what are they? How are they? Where are they?

1359
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,560
What's the justification for those in eight?

1360
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:07,399
Speaker 13: Can you tell me some examples of the laws and

1361
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:08,840
logic so I can follow what you're saying.

1362
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:10,399
Speaker 4: There's a point, all right, So like, if you're going

1363
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:12,720
to come debate, maybe you should have known about those

1364
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,479
things before you debate. That's not being mean. If you

1365
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:18,279
come to debate and you don't know what a law

1366
01:20:18,319 --> 01:20:21,640
of logic is, you're not ready to debate, that's not

1367
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:25,880
me being mean. If you disagree, raise your hand and

1368
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:31,279
I'll bring you to the head of the line. Who disagrees? Okay, Monitor?

1369
01:20:31,359 --> 01:20:31,680
What's up?

1370
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 3: Dude?

1371
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 10: Hey, okay, yep, I don't disagree, but can I have

1372
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:42,239
a question?

1373
01:20:42,319 --> 01:20:43,920
Speaker 4: Can I ask why did you come to that now?

1374
01:20:44,079 --> 01:20:46,840
Because I asked people specifically to come to the headline

1375
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:50,319
if they disagree, and so you like metal? What's up?

1376
01:20:54,079 --> 01:20:56,119
See now we're back to fifteen hundred live. I don't

1377
01:20:56,199 --> 01:20:59,920
understand what's a dog?

1378
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 3: Hello?

1379
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:03,119
Speaker 4: Yes, sir?

1380
01:21:04,359 --> 01:21:07,640
Speaker 15: Oh hey, sorry you said Monitor? I was just I

1381
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,000
didn't I didn't hear it was a metal ass foreword

1382
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:11,479
the wrong thing.

1383
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Oh you're.

1384
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 15: Good, Thanks for letting me on. I've been trying to

1385
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:16,680
get on for a while.

1386
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 11: You know, I try to be pretty proficient.

1387
01:21:22,199 --> 01:21:26,159
Speaker 15: In my philosophical thinking, but for the most part, I

1388
01:21:26,159 --> 01:21:27,319
guess I'm pretty adept in it.

1389
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:29,520
Speaker 11: So forgive me ahead.

1390
01:21:29,279 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 4: Of time, your adapt or, inapt.

1391
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:34,600
Speaker 3: Or excuse me, okay, what I mean?

1392
01:21:36,399 --> 01:21:37,199
Speaker 11: Okay.

1393
01:21:37,319 --> 01:21:41,199
Speaker 15: So I've been attending an Orthodox parish for the past

1394
01:21:41,199 --> 01:21:42,000
four years.

1395
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:46,319
Speaker 11: In southern California, and I grew up Baptist.

1396
01:21:46,359 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 15: I went to an Evangelical university, Biola.

1397
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:49,760
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've heard of it.

1398
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 4: It's pretty well known.

1399
01:21:52,279 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 15: But I'm really trying to get to the point where

1400
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:59,760
I recently have kind of stopped attending because I really,

1401
01:22:00,039 --> 01:22:03,479
m hmm. There's just some some qualms I've had that

1402
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,199
I just can't get my Protestant mind around.

1403
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,119
Speaker 11: Mainly in particular, I guess.

1404
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 15: The the final authority that Scripture has.

1405
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:17,039
Speaker 16: And.

1406
01:22:21,159 --> 01:22:24,199
Speaker 15: I guess most people I talked to at my parish

1407
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:32,960
they would hold tradition and the the traditions of the

1408
01:22:33,039 --> 01:22:39,800
Church essentially as a safeguard for the interpretation of Scripture.

1409
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:42,720
Speaker 11: Do you see it as such as well?

1410
01:22:43,279 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 4: I would say that'd be one element of tradition, sure

1411
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,600
would be one that would be one function of it.

1412
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:54,640
Speaker 15: Sure, Okay, I guess really it's my main My main

1413
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:59,359
qualm with it is ecumenical counsels are infallible in an

1414
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:07,399
orthodoxy point. And I don't really see how they are infallible.

1415
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,399
Speaker 11: Because ultimately, if they go outside the.

1416
01:23:12,319 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 15: Bounds of scripture, then shouldn't they be held to Okay.

1417
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, they don't go outside the bounds

1418
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,520
of scripture, And in fact, in every ecumenical council they

1419
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:28,000
cite as the first level of authority divine revelation, particularly scripture,

1420
01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:31,199
so scriptures almost always put first, and then they'll list

1421
01:23:31,319 --> 01:23:34,359
arguments from tradition and church fathers, and then arguments from logic,

1422
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:37,479
so there's always usually kind of a tear system going

1423
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:40,560
on there. But the idea that they would go outside

1424
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,520
of or contradict, we would say, I mean, you can

1425
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:44,920
go to divine revelation. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit

1426
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:47,319
would guide the church, so the idea that the church

1427
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:52,319
universally could error really invalidates the promise of Christ that

1428
01:23:52,359 --> 01:23:54,000
he would lead them and guide them into whole truth,

1429
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:56,760
and that there's one holy Catholic Apostolic Church, or that

1430
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:58,960
there's one Lord, one face, one baptism. As Paul says,

1431
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:03,560
like the entire universal Church can fail, then the gates

1432
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:07,079
of Hell prevail against the Church. So maybe the mistake

1433
01:24:07,359 --> 01:24:11,960
is your interpretation of what you think is going outside

1434
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:16,640
the bounds of scripture, whether versus whether they really did totally.

1435
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:19,560
Speaker 11: And that's ultimately what I've had to come to terms with.

1436
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 4: So what's an example of what's an example of an

1437
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,039
ecumenical council that went outside the buses war?

1438
01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 11: Well, I wouldn't.

1439
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:30,560
Speaker 15: I mean, I guess maybe the triumph of orthodoxy in

1440
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:34,840
terms of icon veneration being re implemented.

1441
01:24:34,319 --> 01:24:37,399
Speaker 11: Back in to the churches of practice.

1442
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 4: Right, So how would that be going out saw the

1443
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,359
bounds of scripture when you find out throughout all the

1444
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:43,560
throughout all the Old Testament that God tells you to

1445
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:45,640
venerate things like the arc of the Covenant.

1446
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:47,199
Speaker 11: Totally.

1447
01:24:47,279 --> 01:24:51,640
Speaker 15: And I understand that that typeological argument, but it really

1448
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,319
doesn't quite hit home with me and my own heart,

1449
01:24:56,119 --> 01:24:59,159
and I really wish I could get to the point

1450
01:24:59,159 --> 01:25:03,439
where it does. Ultimately, you know, I don't see it happening.

1451
01:25:04,039 --> 01:25:04,520
Speaker 3: I mean I do.

1452
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 15: I watched countless hours, read you know, countless pages of books,

1453
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,119
and ultimately I feel like you can't really trace it back.

1454
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 11: To the first century.

1455
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:21,520
Speaker 4: Ultimately, did they have the eu Christ in the first century?

1456
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,840
They did, Yes, sir, okay, was that revered.

1457
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:28,399
Speaker 15: More than it is now in Protestant circles?

1458
01:25:28,399 --> 01:25:33,239
Speaker 4: I would say, yes, hold on, was that I'm just well.

1459
01:25:33,279 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 11: I just mean, like it's it's revered.

1460
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,039
Speaker 15: Then, it's revered now. But I would say it has

1461
01:25:39,119 --> 01:25:43,079
more of a it has more of a relaxed view

1462
01:25:43,239 --> 01:25:44,239
nowadays than it did.

1463
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 4: You know, like, no, no, I'm not talking about Protestants today.

1464
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,399
I'm just asking you if they revered, if they revered

1465
01:25:50,399 --> 01:25:52,439
the Eucharist and believed in the real presence of the

1466
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:54,920
first century? Is that not a created thing? Is that idolatry?

1467
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,600
Would Wouldn't that violate the point you're making about the

1468
01:25:57,640 --> 01:25:58,319
seventh the Council.

1469
01:26:00,279 --> 01:26:01,279
Speaker 11: I guess it would. Yes.

1470
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:06,159
Speaker 4: So in Joshua seven it says Joshua torres close and

1471
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:08,399
fell in the arc, fell in on the earth on

1472
01:26:08,439 --> 01:26:10,039
his face before the ark of the Lord him and

1473
01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:12,560
all the elder elders of Israel. So they're prostrating before

1474
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:13,840
the arc. Is idolatry?

1475
01:26:16,119 --> 01:26:19,800
Speaker 11: No, I don't think it is. But also the presence

1476
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:20,640
of God was.

1477
01:26:22,079 --> 01:26:24,560
Speaker 15: In the ark at that moment, so you don't believe

1478
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:25,840
it is in the Eucharist.

1479
01:26:26,319 --> 01:26:28,399
Speaker 4: So, but he's not president in the liturgy. I don't

1480
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,039
understand is he president in the bodies of the Saints

1481
01:26:31,119 --> 01:26:36,359
or not he is? So where's the problem?

1482
01:26:37,159 --> 01:26:39,159
Speaker 11: I guess the problem for me is.

1483
01:26:41,319 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 15: I understand the logic to get to the point where

1484
01:26:46,119 --> 01:26:50,640
you know the prototype when when you when you venerate

1485
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:54,680
the prototype, you're you're venerating Christ. Right, Ultimately I understand that,

1486
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:58,279
But as a practice, I don't see it happening in

1487
01:26:58,319 --> 01:27:01,640
the first century archaeologically or historically.

1488
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 4: Where's the Protestant Canada scripture in the first century?

1489
01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 15: That That's another thing I've been thinking about, truly, is

1490
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,199
I don't really I understand the argument that, well, where

1491
01:27:16,239 --> 01:27:17,640
did you get the Canada Scripture?

1492
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 4: No, no, I didn't say that. I'm not going to the

1493
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:24,039
canon argument. I'm specifically saying the argument presupposes that there

1494
01:27:24,039 --> 01:27:27,279
would be some written proof or evidence of that in

1495
01:27:27,319 --> 01:27:31,319
the first century, And I'm saying that Protestants themselves believe

1496
01:27:31,479 --> 01:27:34,800
multiple doctrines that are not explicitly written in the first

1497
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,159
century documents or texts. For example, where in the first

1498
01:27:38,159 --> 01:27:40,079
century is the Protestant or the second century of the

1499
01:27:40,079 --> 01:27:41,119
Protestant Canada Scripture.

1500
01:27:43,159 --> 01:27:46,640
Speaker 11: I think the Canada Scripture was already pretty well established.

1501
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's totally not true. Where did you get that idea?

1502
01:27:50,199 --> 01:27:52,880
We name a church father in the first, second, or

1503
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,000
third century that lists the Protestant candascripture?

1504
01:27:56,279 --> 01:27:58,039
Speaker 11: Do they need to lift it if they already.

1505
01:27:58,039 --> 01:28:00,279
Speaker 4: You're just said that, Where was the evidence it's in

1506
01:28:00,319 --> 01:28:03,920
the first few centuries or the first century for icon veneration?

1507
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:06,840
Speaker 11: Well, right, right, okay, I see, I see your thing.

1508
01:28:08,399 --> 01:28:11,520
Speaker 4: Okay, name a Protestant, Name a church father in the

1509
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:17,640
first three centuries that has a Protestant cannon scripture, that.

1510
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 11: Has a canon of scripture?

1511
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:23,279
Speaker 4: I mean, you have no that has the Protestant canon

1512
01:28:23,319 --> 01:28:24,960
of scripture? Are you having a hard time? I'm not

1513
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:26,399
trying to be mean, but like, it's not a hard

1514
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:30,720
Can you name a church father for the third time

1515
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:33,760
in the first three centuries that lists the Protestant canon

1516
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:34,319
of scripture?

1517
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 3: What do you mean by product?

1518
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,760
Speaker 4: I mean, have you actually read this stuff? I'm not

1519
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:44,560
trying to be rude, but it's like, I don't you've

1520
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,000
been You've been attending an Orthodox church for four years

1521
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,960
and you they're not familiar with any of those. That

1522
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:50,479
doesn't make.

1523
01:28:50,359 --> 01:28:51,119
Speaker 3: Any sense, I am.

1524
01:28:51,159 --> 01:28:54,439
Speaker 15: But what I'm saying is the Canada Scripture by the

1525
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:56,720
time it was established.

1526
01:28:57,359 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 4: When do you think that? When do you think that was?

1527
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:03,239
Speaker 11: Third century?

1528
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:05,640
Speaker 3: Four? Yeah? Third century?

1529
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:07,640
Speaker 4: By who? What do you? I don't know what are

1530
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:08,279
you talking about?

1531
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 3: Who?

1532
01:29:09,039 --> 01:29:11,359
Speaker 4: Who listed the Protestant canon district? You don't know that

1533
01:29:11,399 --> 01:29:13,159
the Protestants of a different canon.

1534
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:16,359
Speaker 15: Each Yeah, each father had roughly a different canon, but

1535
01:29:16,359 --> 01:29:18,359
there were some that were there were books that were

1536
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:19,119
always maintained.

1537
01:29:20,279 --> 01:29:23,520
Speaker 4: And so what church father in the first three centuries

1538
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:27,199
maintained the Protestant list of books name one?

1539
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:30,960
Speaker 11: I guess there is none.

1540
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:36,880
Speaker 4: Correct, So you're requiring for orthodox a position that a

1541
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:41,239
Protestant doesn't hold to themselves. So that's a double standard

1542
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:46,920
because there are many things that even Protestants believe that

1543
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:50,520
were not written as a dispute or a issue in

1544
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:52,520
the first, second or even third century.

1545
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:55,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, like justification by faith alone, essentially is.

1546
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:56,760
Speaker 3: Would be one of them.

1547
01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:00,399
Speaker 4: Well that if you believe, if you read ELSI graph

1548
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:04,800
wasn't believed by anybody in the first fifteen hundred years.

1549
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,000
I'm not trying to be really but I don't actually

1550
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,960
think you have. I don't actually think you've looked into

1551
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,079
these issues, and I don't act. How have you attended

1552
01:30:13,159 --> 01:30:15,079
North X Church for four years and this is where

1553
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:16,720
you're at? It just doesn't make any sense.

1554
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:23,279
Speaker 15: Well that's why I'm not christ made in essentially it

1555
01:30:23,359 --> 01:30:26,840
is because I just really, ultimately, I'm not trying to

1556
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,199
say that you guys aren't Christians or you're wrong about.

1557
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:32,680
Speaker 4: These things, but you don't. You don't exemplify much knowledge

1558
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,279
about these topics at all. So what were you doing

1559
01:30:36,319 --> 01:30:36,520
this for?

1560
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:36,640
Speaker 17: You?

1561
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:38,199
Speaker 4: Did you go like once every four years?

1562
01:30:38,279 --> 01:30:38,359
Speaker 3: Like?

1563
01:30:39,359 --> 01:30:40,239
Speaker 11: No, I go every week?

1564
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 4: Okay? An I mean does the priest not know anything?

1565
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:47,119
Like he's just not good at katechisas or what?

1566
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:49,640
Speaker 11: No, No, they're absolutely great.

1567
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:50,319
Speaker 3: Kiss.

1568
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:56,079
Speaker 15: I What I'm ultimately trying to get at is I

1569
01:30:56,199 --> 01:31:00,800
do not I ultimately think that I don't understand how

1570
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:04,039
scripture isn't held to a higher authority than the tradition

1571
01:31:04,399 --> 01:31:05,239
of the church.

1572
01:31:05,319 --> 01:31:07,199
Speaker 4: But do you understand that when you walk into the liturgy,

1573
01:31:07,239 --> 01:31:09,479
the whole thing is scripture? So what do you? I mean,

1574
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:11,359
the readings are all scripture, So what are.

1575
01:31:11,279 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 3: You talking about?

1576
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:12,840
Speaker 11: I love the liturgy?

1577
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 4: Well, that you're you're introducing a false divide between the

1578
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:21,000
two things. So where do you understand that the Bible

1579
01:31:21,039 --> 01:31:23,479
comes out the Bible comes out of the liturgy. Did

1580
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:24,359
you even know that.

1581
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 15: The Bible comes out of the liturgy or it's made

1582
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:29,359
alive in the liturgyes?

1583
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 4: No, it's literally determined to be what it is from

1584
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,039
the liturgy.

1585
01:31:36,159 --> 01:31:38,720
Speaker 15: Wouldn't that and wouldn't that imply that the liturgy is

1586
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:39,640
prior to.

1587
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 4: Well, what does Paul say in First Timothy? That's the

1588
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:45,239
pillar and ground of truth.

1589
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:47,319
Speaker 3: The church?

1590
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 4: Right? Does he say the books the scrolls? No? Okay,

1591
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,359
So the Church produces the Bible and determines what goes

1592
01:31:57,399 --> 01:31:59,479
into it. And part of the way the Church determined

1593
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:03,439
that was the electionaries. Electionaries are daily readings. The daily

1594
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,520
readings had a huge role on the Church fathers over

1595
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:09,479
the centuries, deciding by the time of Trollo and the

1596
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,000
sixth and Seventh Council as to what would be included

1597
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:16,840
in the canonicals list of scriptures. That canonical list of scriptures, universally,

1598
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:20,239
except for Saint Jerome, included the Dutero canon, which the

1599
01:32:20,279 --> 01:32:21,560
Protestants rejected.

1600
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:25,920
Speaker 11: Correct, they do reject the Deudio canon.

1601
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,399
Speaker 4: Okay, so you're saying, come about the premiacy of scripture,

1602
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:30,399
and you're going you want to go to a group

1603
01:32:30,399 --> 01:32:32,119
that doesn't even have all the scriptures.

1604
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:35,880
Speaker 15: Well, when I think about it, and when I think

1605
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:38,960
about it, logically, they had the book before they had

1606
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:42,680
the services. The books came before the liturgy.

1607
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 4: No, that's not true. Totally wrong. Again, you don't know

1608
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:48,479
what you're talking about. If you read Williams and Anstall

1609
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:51,800
book on the history of the formation of Christian liturgical

1610
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:55,239
worship out of the synagogue and temple system, and even

1611
01:32:55,239 --> 01:32:57,199
if you read a Protestant like Hugh Weybrew in his

1612
01:32:57,239 --> 01:33:01,520
book The Byzantine Liturgy, the liturgy predates and precedes the

1613
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:05,960
the canonical list of scriptures. So you're absolutely wrong.

1614
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 11: Maybe then it might predate the canon list.

1615
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:12,800
Speaker 4: How are you going to have solo scripturia without a canon?

1616
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:20,279
Speaker 15: Well, there was already established scripture before.

1617
01:33:20,119 --> 01:33:23,439
Speaker 4: You're missing a point. It doesn't matter. I understand that

1618
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:26,479
certain churches might have had Paul's Letters or this or

1619
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:29,800
that gospel, but for sola scriptura to be true, you

1620
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:33,000
need the entire Protestant sixty six Books of the Bible,

1621
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:36,600
and even James White in his recent debate with Trent Horne,

1622
01:33:36,640 --> 01:33:39,880
admitted that no, the Church of the first several centuries

1623
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:42,319
did not operate on a sol scripture of principle because

1624
01:33:42,319 --> 01:33:44,960
they did not have the entirety of the Bible. Do

1625
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:47,319
you understand you can't have solos?

1626
01:33:48,319 --> 01:33:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1627
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:50,680
Speaker 4: Okay, Well then that refutes your previous point.

1628
01:33:52,119 --> 01:33:54,319
Speaker 11: I'm not even saying that all you need is scripture.

1629
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:56,640
I don't even hold to is. So I don't even hold.

1630
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,199
Speaker 4: I believe the Orderdrox Church does believe in premuscret that

1631
01:33:59,199 --> 01:34:00,840
the scripture is is primary.

1632
01:34:02,119 --> 01:34:09,800
Speaker 11: Okay, okay, okay, yeah, okay. Can we move on and

1633
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:10,720
can ask you one more question?

1634
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:12,279
Speaker 18: Okay?

1635
01:34:13,319 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 15: So the Orthodox view of hell, I know that there

1636
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:21,199
are a lot of differing views on it, because I

1637
01:34:21,199 --> 01:34:24,479
mean to say ultimately what the afterlife is going to

1638
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:25,560
be like ultimately.

1639
01:34:26,159 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 3: But one of the.

1640
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:30,279
Speaker 15: Main proponents of what I've heard coming from my own

1641
01:34:30,279 --> 01:34:35,479
parish personally, is that you know, the wicked and the

1642
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:40,600
righteouster are all raised, We're all going to get new bodies.

1643
01:34:41,279 --> 01:34:43,199
Some are made for destruction and some are made for

1644
01:34:44,279 --> 01:34:48,560
eternal life with Christ right and the same river of

1645
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:51,840
life that flows from the throne is like fire to

1646
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:53,239
you know what I'm trying to say.

1647
01:34:53,279 --> 01:34:56,600
Speaker 11: You know I'm getting at You've heard this? Is that

1648
01:34:57,279 --> 01:35:00,319
is that view held mainly because.

1649
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:09,640
Speaker 15: I guess, logically speaking, God, God's presence cannot inhabit or

1650
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:15,840
God cannot sustain I guess a place of existence for

1651
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:21,840
us in the afterlife where his presence is not so

1652
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:24,319
he can't create Hell, where he can't create Hell.

1653
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 11: And sustain its existence. If his presence is not there.

1654
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:32,119
Speaker 15: And if you're going to believe that Hell is the

1655
01:35:32,119 --> 01:35:35,560
absence of God's presence, then how can Hell be sustained?

1656
01:35:36,159 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 4: I mean it's not ultimately determined by a question revolving

1657
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:42,800
around divine on the presence. It's more so a question

1658
01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:47,199
revolving around Christology and the idea that Jesus assumed universal

1659
01:35:47,279 --> 01:35:49,920
human nature, and that's why all men are resurrected. So

1660
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:53,479
all men are resurrected regardless of whether they're wicked or righteous,

1661
01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:58,159
according to Paul and verse Crinian's fifteen. And as Christology develops,

1662
01:35:58,680 --> 01:36:00,880
don't mean developed in the Roman sense. I just mean

1663
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:03,880
that the specification of what the Apostolic faith is, and

1664
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:09,920
the councils as that specification develops over time, what gets

1665
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:14,439
worked out theologically is also the effect of Christology and

1666
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:19,960
a cosmic scope on the esketon. And so Saint Maximus

1667
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:22,279
is a key figure in that. If you read any

1668
01:36:22,319 --> 01:36:24,479
of the works on Maximus, like the Little Blue Book

1669
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:29,840
that SBS puts out, there's a whole section on recapitulation

1670
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:31,359
and if you read it.

1671
01:36:31,319 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 11: Here Nasty Christ.

1672
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. So Aaron As also talks about recapitulation and against heresy.

1673
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:42,920
So this is the idea that Christ recapitulates everything that

1674
01:36:43,119 --> 01:36:46,880
Adam lost, and Adam's sin didn't just affect him personally

1675
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:48,520
or his own physical body or his progen and it

1676
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:51,720
affected the entire universe. So there's a cosmic scope. Because

1677
01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:54,000
man was a steward of all creation, Christ becomes the

1678
01:36:54,039 --> 01:36:56,960
new steward of all creation. Thus the scope of the

1679
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:00,560
effect is just as universal as Adams fall. And so

1680
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:04,279
that's a big part of where the Orthodox doctrine of

1681
01:37:04,359 --> 01:37:08,359
river fire being the light of river, of life, water

1682
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:11,159
life and all that. That's where all that comes. It's

1683
01:37:11,199 --> 01:37:13,800
basically more so crystal logical than it is anything to

1684
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:16,279
do with whether or not God is omnipresent.

1685
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:19,520
Speaker 11: Okay, Okay, that that's a nice clarification.

1686
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:24,039
Speaker 4: Sure, Okay, yeah, a new time man. I appreciate you

1687
01:37:24,079 --> 01:37:26,119
coming on, and I'm sorry if I got a little

1688
01:37:26,199 --> 01:37:30,399
uh testy there. It's just the the thing with the

1689
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:32,279
canon is a is a is a thing. I harp

1690
01:37:32,359 --> 01:37:33,720
on a lot. It's just kind of a pet peeve

1691
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:36,560
of mine. So I'm not being rude to you. I'm

1692
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:39,359
always I'm looking for people who disagree. If you say

1693
01:37:39,359 --> 01:37:41,279
you're disagreeing and you don't disagree, I'm just gonna be

1694
01:37:41,399 --> 01:37:43,399
gonna be You're not gonna answer your question because it

1695
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:46,920
gets annoying when people lie and say that they disagree

1696
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:49,640
just to get to the line. Rick, what's up dude?

1697
01:37:51,399 --> 01:37:56,479
Hey Jamie, Jamie, could you make me a double shot

1698
01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:00,520
of Xpresso what's that slick?

1699
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:02,279
Speaker 3: Rick? Hey? What's up? Jay?

1700
01:38:02,319 --> 01:38:03,159
Speaker 11: How you doing, sir.

1701
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:04,920
Speaker 4: Good?

1702
01:38:05,079 --> 01:38:08,399
Speaker 3: Can you hear me? All right? All right?

1703
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:09,199
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1704
01:38:09,239 --> 01:38:09,920
Speaker 3: My issue?

1705
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:11,840
Speaker 18: Well, yesterday I was listening to one of your I

1706
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:16,800
guess little whatever this is called, and I heard you

1707
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:18,880
say that if you're not a member of the orthodized.

1708
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 4: Trop all on, just one second to the guy in

1709
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:24,840
the chat over here on YouTube, not you, Jimmy and.

1710
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:28,680
Speaker 19: The Chad Mode is your ultimate natural pre workout designed

1711
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:32,239
to take your performance to the next level. Chad Mode

1712
01:38:32,279 --> 01:38:36,119
is for natty beast alphas only. Whether you're hitting the gym,

1713
01:38:36,399 --> 01:38:40,880
invading a favella, conquering a small village, gambling, burning the

1714
01:38:40,920 --> 01:38:45,399
midnight oil, mogging on your coworkers, or getting banned from Facebook,

1715
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:48,880
chad Mode gives you the competitive edge you need. It's

1716
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,199
as simple as mixing one or two scoops of our

1717
01:38:51,239 --> 01:38:55,119
fine powder into water or juice. Providing you with a delicious,

1718
01:38:55,319 --> 01:38:59,239
energizing beverage featuring a burst of sweet organic fruit flavor.

1719
01:39:00,119 --> 01:39:03,119
Chad Mode will give you the extra edge you desperately crave.

1720
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:09,359
Chad Mode stands out from the crowd by excluding artificial flavors, preservatives, sweeteners,

1721
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:13,960
and dyes. We've even avoided so called natural flavors, ensuring

1722
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:17,720
a clean and effective formula. Only soy boys and Beta's guzzle,

1723
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:22,199
blue dye and sucralose, further tanking their already low testosterone levels.

1724
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:26,000
Chad Mode is made in America. Unlike your common TikTok

1725
01:39:26,079 --> 01:39:29,560
peasants pre workout powder, it does not contain Chinese lab

1726
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:33,199
made caffeine and artificial sweeteners that soyboys so often crave.

1727
01:39:34,039 --> 01:39:37,000
Experience the pure goodness of chad Mode with Blue Magic

1728
01:39:37,039 --> 01:39:42,279
registered trademark organic blue Spirillina extract, organic lemon cherry and

1729
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:47,359
organic maple crystals. Forget synthetic caffeine. Embrace the natural power

1730
01:39:47,399 --> 01:39:50,920
of organic green coffee bean extract. Each dose of chad

1731
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:53,079
Mode mirrors the caffeine kick of a cup and a

1732
01:39:53,119 --> 01:39:57,880
half of coffee, delivering a surge of energy alongside essential vitamins, minerals,

1733
01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:01,640
amino acids, and herbal extracts. Chad Mode will allow you

1734
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:04,600
to fire your boss and mog on anyone who opposes you.

1735
01:40:05,319 --> 01:40:08,159
Chad Mode will give you a dominant and aggressive edge,

1736
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:11,119
like a lion hunting a gazelle, where the gazelle is

1737
01:40:11,159 --> 01:40:14,920
a TikTok Jim zoomer, macro guzzling sucralose on the daily

1738
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:19,359
edging to TNF videos. Whether you're seeking a high potency,

1739
01:40:19,520 --> 01:40:22,239
junk free pre workout or a better way to kickstart

1740
01:40:22,279 --> 01:40:25,640
your day, chad Mode has you covered. It's not just

1741
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:29,199
for men. Chad Mode is a solution for anyone ready

1742
01:40:29,199 --> 01:40:33,000
to conquer their fitness and life goals, dominate their coworkers,

1743
01:40:33,279 --> 01:40:37,079
and aggressively gamble their life savings. Don't miss out secure

1744
01:40:37,079 --> 01:40:39,880
your supply of chad Mode on TikTok Shop with a

1745
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:45,119
limited time, massive discount. Elevate your workouts and supercharge your days.

1746
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,800
Chad Mode not for your average Jim bro zoomer who

1747
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:51,840
guzzles synthetic blue dyes on the daily. Buy on the

1748
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:55,359
TikTok shop now with a massive discount provided by TikTok

1749
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:58,359
for a very limited time. Buy now while this is

1750
01:40:58,399 --> 01:41:02,159
still available. Mode has been flying off the shelves because

1751
01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:05,520
it's the first of its kind, certified for Alpha or

1752
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:08,880
Sigma males only. Do not buy if you are a beta.

1753
01:41:09,239 --> 01:41:10,880
We will refund your money.

1754
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:13,119
Speaker 4: Chat if you want to. Instead of spamming, you have

1755
01:41:13,159 --> 01:41:15,840
to come to debate. So you're welcome to come and

1756
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:19,439
chat Jimmy. But to just spam the chat, you're just

1757
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:22,119
gonna get booted. So go ahead, man, what's upright?

1758
01:41:22,199 --> 01:41:22,600
Speaker 3: No problem?

1759
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:23,439
Speaker 11: Yeah? I just heard that.

1760
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:25,640
Speaker 18: I think that if you're not an adherent to the

1761
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,760
tenets of the Orthodox Faith, that you know you're going

1762
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:29,039
to hell.

1763
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:31,199
Speaker 4: I heard you say that.

1764
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:35,720
Speaker 11: Okay, so what what are your parameters? And I'm not

1765
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:37,359
asking a question, this is not Q and A.

1766
01:41:37,439 --> 01:41:39,039
Speaker 18: But I'm sure I'll be able to find something in

1767
01:41:39,079 --> 01:41:42,279
your response, that won't give me an opportunity to argue

1768
01:41:42,319 --> 01:41:45,520
against what you believe. But in terms of your parameters

1769
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:49,359
for sociology, what is essential for salvation according to the

1770
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:52,119
Orthodox Faith? According to your understanding, which I'm sure you're

1771
01:41:52,159 --> 01:41:55,079
understanding is limited. I doubt you have in your mind

1772
01:41:55,119 --> 01:41:59,880
the entire you know, canon of understanding from all the synods.

1773
01:42:00,079 --> 01:42:05,039
But according to your limited understanding, what is necessary for salvation?

1774
01:42:05,239 --> 01:42:06,520
Soteriologically speaking?

1775
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:08,920
Speaker 4: Do you have an understanding of all the synods?

1776
01:42:09,760 --> 01:42:11,960
Speaker 3: No? I don't, okay, and I think no one does.

1777
01:42:12,279 --> 01:42:13,439
Speaker 11: That's going to be part.

1778
01:42:13,199 --> 01:42:15,520
Speaker 18: Of the logic which I understand you hold is pre

1779
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:19,640
eminent in terms of understanding your faith above other things. So,

1780
01:42:20,119 --> 01:42:22,199
but let's just ask the question, if you don't mind,

1781
01:42:22,239 --> 01:42:25,359
if you can answer it, what is essential for salvation?

1782
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:29,560
Speaker 4: Well, for example, there's not a one size fits all

1783
01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:32,720
because we would say, as Orthodox that say, a retarded

1784
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:36,079
person or a child who doesn't have any advanced level

1785
01:42:36,079 --> 01:42:39,640
of understanding can be saved. Right, So the Orthodox Church

1786
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,439
we baptize children then slow people as well, so they

1787
01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:47,319
can be baptized and saved without extensive amounts of knowledge.

1788
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:50,000
I think Jesus says, you know to who much is given,

1789
01:42:50,039 --> 01:42:53,199
much is required. So in those cases I would say

1790
01:42:53,359 --> 01:42:56,840
that's why. Ultimately, on an individual basis, as Orthodox we

1791
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:00,920
say that we leave that up to God. But for

1792
01:43:01,039 --> 01:43:03,760
what we go by in terms of public profession, you

1793
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:06,720
do have to be joined to the mystical Body of Christ,

1794
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,479
which I do believe. The parameters are that that's identical

1795
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:12,800
to the Orthodox Church. But that's not hold on, that's

1796
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:17,560
not like necessarily limited to some building or some space.

1797
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:21,039
In other words, let's say a Muslim dude, let me

1798
01:43:21,039 --> 01:43:23,439
finish it, I'll let you talk. So let's say a

1799
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:26,760
Muslim dude like lives in Saudi Arabia, doesn't anything about Christianity,

1800
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:29,800
and he starts listening on the internet to Orthodox stuff.

1801
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:32,439
And let's say he gets down and prays and accepts

1802
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:34,439
Jesus something like that, but he has no access to

1803
01:43:35,159 --> 01:43:37,560
baptism or something like that, and then he dies that night.

1804
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:40,720
Could he be said? Absolutely? And the thief on the

1805
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:43,680
Cross is an example of that. So it really depends

1806
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:48,039
on that's extra normative. I think God has the ability

1807
01:43:48,079 --> 01:43:50,800
to through extra normative means, like the guy the thief

1808
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:52,920
on the Cross, to join people to the mystical body

1809
01:43:53,279 --> 01:43:55,680
but I do also affirm that the Orthodox Church is

1810
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:56,760
the mystical body of Christ.

1811
01:43:57,840 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 18: Okay, And when you say a mystical body of Christ,

1812
01:44:00,199 --> 01:44:01,199
what does that mean.

1813
01:44:03,199 --> 01:44:04,680
Speaker 3: That? Well, because the.

1814
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:06,520
Speaker 18: Mystical definition that kind of just.

1815
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:08,079
Speaker 11: For me that throws me off.

1816
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:10,520
Speaker 4: Like that's just that the ald term. It doesn't it

1817
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:12,520
doesn't ever to do with a mystical definition. It just

1818
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:16,680
means that the extension of the incarnation is the Church.

1819
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:19,840
It is the visible, institutional Orthodox Church, which is the

1820
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:23,079
continuation of His body. Say that same much, let me finish.

1821
01:44:23,119 --> 01:44:26,720
According to Paul first Corinthians twelve, when he talks about

1822
01:44:26,960 --> 01:44:30,439
the church at Corinthie says, you are Christ's body, eyes, hands, feet,

1823
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:34,000
et cetera. We believe that we really are through baptism,

1824
01:44:34,119 --> 01:44:35,600
the extension of the incarnation.

1825
01:44:36,159 --> 01:44:38,720
Speaker 18: Yeah, with the contextually, what he was actually talking about

1826
01:44:38,720 --> 01:44:41,800
in one Corinthians twelve was to not elevate one part

1827
01:44:41,840 --> 01:44:44,920
of the body over another, that the entire body was essential.

1828
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:48,079
So I would cite you as being incorrect there on

1829
01:44:48,159 --> 01:44:50,760
your contextualization of that scripture and ulizing it for the

1830
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:51,760
mystic body of Christ.

1831
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:55,199
Speaker 4: So you're a gnostic who doesn't believe in the incarnation

1832
01:44:55,239 --> 01:44:55,800
that's what you're saying.

1833
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 18: Now, I believe in the incarnation that what I said,

1834
01:44:57,960 --> 01:45:00,000
and you're you're setting up a straw man right there.

1835
01:45:00,359 --> 01:45:02,800
Speaker 4: Well, no, your your exidesis tells me that your position

1836
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:04,680
is what Protestant? Are you Protestant?

1837
01:45:05,319 --> 01:45:08,000
Speaker 18: I no, I'm actually pre Protestant. I would be like Brien,

1838
01:45:08,239 --> 01:45:09,720
you know what, because.

1839
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:11,279
Speaker 4: Heretic?

1840
01:45:11,399 --> 01:45:13,159
Speaker 3: Okay, no, I'm not a heretic.

1841
01:45:13,199 --> 01:45:15,520
Speaker 4: But there is no such thing as a Brian church

1842
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:17,199
doesn't Here's the.

1843
01:45:17,159 --> 01:45:18,720
Speaker 18: Thing, this is, this is what I'm trying to say.

1844
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:21,560
I'm trying to say that the first century church you're

1845
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:26,560
you're not that you're a you're from what I'm not.

1846
01:45:26,479 --> 01:45:29,359
Speaker 4: That that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as

1847
01:45:30,039 --> 01:45:32,079
you have. You're not that there is no boer in church.

1848
01:45:32,119 --> 01:45:32,680
You made it up.

1849
01:45:33,119 --> 01:45:34,600
Speaker 11: Let me make it. Let me make another point.

1850
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:37,159
Speaker 18: See Rachel laughing. You know I sense that there is

1851
01:45:37,199 --> 01:45:38,479
a lack of the fruit of this.

1852
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:40,640
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, here we go. Yeah, well you should be

1853
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:42,960
thought of because you're ridiculous.

1854
01:45:43,399 --> 01:45:44,319
Speaker 11: Okay, Well here's the thing.

1855
01:45:44,399 --> 01:45:45,119
Speaker 3: All right, here's the thing.

1856
01:45:45,439 --> 01:45:47,520
Speaker 18: See that type of comment, when you go into the

1857
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:50,880
ad homin and attacks, you basically rendered any of.

1858
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:54,800
Speaker 4: Your because nobody should listen to you, because nobody believes

1859
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:59,359
in a delusion on this channel. What I said, because

1860
01:45:59,359 --> 01:46:01,760
nobody is gonna listen to somebody who believes that they're

1861
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:05,159
reinventing a first century church. That means you're in delusion.

1862
01:46:05,359 --> 01:46:08,159
So we're not gonna argue with you. You're a waste of time,

1863
01:46:08,199 --> 01:46:11,239
You're a delusion. That was not mean, that was correct.

1864
01:46:12,359 --> 01:46:14,319
So notice how nice I was to that guy, answering

1865
01:46:14,319 --> 01:46:16,439
his questions, and then he comes with this total quackery.

1866
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:21,640
Who's next? You have to raise your hand and we

1867
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:25,720
will go to you. I want to hear actual arguments.

1868
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:28,359
I'm not gonna hear you yapping at me about the

1869
01:46:28,399 --> 01:46:33,119
exegesis one Grindians twelve. How's that going to prove the

1870
01:46:33,119 --> 01:46:37,000
Barean Church? You misinterpreted French Criadian's twin. I'm a member

1871
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:40,039
of the original Brian Church. There is no original Brian

1872
01:46:40,159 --> 01:46:47,399
Church doesn't exist. You're in a cult. Okay, Alex, you

1873
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:49,079
are disagreeing. What's up?

1874
01:46:49,119 --> 01:46:49,279
Speaker 3: Man?

1875
01:46:50,279 --> 01:46:52,720
Speaker 4: Oh, we got a philanthropists playboy, he's a mac daddy.

1876
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:54,640
He's gonna set us straight.

1877
01:46:55,800 --> 01:47:00,239
Speaker 20: Yo, No, no, no, I have So I came across

1878
01:47:01,039 --> 01:47:05,079
an argument from the Muslims I've never heard of before,

1879
01:47:05,119 --> 01:47:06,760
and I'm curious your take on it.

1880
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:11,279
Speaker 3: His argument is because Christ, can you hear me?

1881
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 4: Yep?

1882
01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 3: Okay?

1883
01:47:12,840 --> 01:47:16,159
Speaker 21: Because Christ took on a fully human nature and he

1884
01:47:16,239 --> 01:47:19,640
has that in eternity right, he's bound to it for eternity,

1885
01:47:21,359 --> 01:47:25,520
he says. He said, how is that not idolatry because

1886
01:47:26,439 --> 01:47:28,199
you can't separate the person from the nature.

1887
01:47:31,279 --> 01:47:35,239
Speaker 4: Well, Saint Cyril addressed this objection. It's an objection that

1888
01:47:35,319 --> 01:47:38,600
the story has had. And Cyril's answer is that the

1889
01:47:39,279 --> 01:47:42,039
we're not worshiping the humanity for the sake of humanity.

1890
01:47:42,079 --> 01:47:46,359
We worship the one Christ hypostatically united to the human

1891
01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:49,000
nature that he took on. So it's the body of

1892
01:47:49,079 --> 01:47:51,359
the god Man. We're not worshiping his body.

1893
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:54,359
Speaker 3: Okay.

1894
01:47:54,439 --> 01:47:56,800
Speaker 20: So I said something very similar to that, and he

1895
01:47:57,000 --> 01:47:59,680
kept on reiterating that because it's a property that the

1896
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:03,560
person has and we claim to worship Christ as a whole.

1897
01:48:04,039 --> 01:48:05,680
Speaker 3: He couldn't seem to get past that.

1898
01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:09,560
Speaker 20: I was thinking that it was probably just him having

1899
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,680
a lack of person in nature distinction is that?

1900
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:14,439
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that's part of it, But also,

1901
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:18,479
like the point of the hypeset of union is that

1902
01:48:19,279 --> 01:48:23,720
the whole Christ is what's worshiped, not parts. And that's

1903
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:26,600
what ephesis reiterates against the stories, because the story says,

1904
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:31,239
if you worship the humanity, you're worshiping a man and

1905
01:48:31,279 --> 01:48:34,439
you're an idolator. And so the response is that there

1906
01:48:34,520 --> 01:48:37,479
is no dividing of the worship that we direct to Christ.

1907
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:39,760
The worship that we direct to Christ is to the

1908
01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:43,960
divine person in his human nature, so that the subject is

1909
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,439
fully divine from all eternity. The second person that God

1910
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,560
had and that nature that he assumed, which is deified,

1911
01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:53,640
is also now taken up into his possession, and it

1912
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:56,720
has become his own. And so because it is his own,

1913
01:48:57,119 --> 01:48:59,199
we worship it as the body of the God Man

1914
01:48:59,239 --> 01:49:01,800
and not a body, right.

1915
01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:03,520
Speaker 3: And because he took it on, it wouldn't be.

1916
01:49:03,520 --> 01:49:07,920
Speaker 4: Idolatry that And also Muslims are really in no better

1917
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:10,960
position because they can't figure out if they worship and

1918
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:15,920
if there's an eternal Qur'an next to a lot as well.

1919
01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:18,279
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, exactly, all right, that was it. I appreciate it.

1920
01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:23,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, good question. I mean, the anathemas of ethicis if

1921
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:27,800
you read through them, they're actually that's funny, because that's

1922
01:49:28,039 --> 01:49:31,880
I wonder if Nestorius, I mean, if you read even

1923
01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:36,199
today's academics, they'll point out that Islam was influenced by

1924
01:49:37,279 --> 01:49:39,960
Arianism and Astorianism and the Talmud and so forth and

1925
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:43,239
so on. So I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't

1926
01:49:43,279 --> 01:49:47,680
a connection between Nestorius's argumentation and what you hear Muslims

1927
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:52,199
make Ea Christian Ea, what's up?

1928
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 3: Hello, m.

1929
01:50:00,640 --> 01:50:05,319
Speaker 16: Oh hi, thanks for having me on. So my question

1930
01:50:05,399 --> 01:50:11,359
actually follows from that. It's somewhat similar. So I don't

1931
01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:18,680
quite understand the difference between the Eastern Orthodox position and

1932
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:25,119
Oriental or copted and regards to Christ's nature.

1933
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:28,079
Speaker 4: Okay, well that's a question, and I don't mind the question.

1934
01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:31,000
But we're doing an ongoing series about that that you

1935
01:50:31,039 --> 01:50:33,520
can watch on my channel. This is for people who

1936
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:35,760
disagree today, so you can go to my channel and

1937
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:38,800
watch part one in part two of Oriental Orthodoxy Refuted,

1938
01:50:39,159 --> 01:50:42,000
where we spend about six hours addressing that topic, and

1939
01:50:42,039 --> 01:50:45,520
we have many, many more installments coming. So I'm looking

1940
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:47,600
for people who disagrees, So raise your hand in the

1941
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,479
chat if you disagree. If you're coming with a Q

1942
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:53,439
and a I'm just I'm not going to answer the questions.

1943
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:58,640
So let's see. Next up is Alex.

1944
01:51:03,199 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 3: You know what's up? Jay?

1945
01:51:04,319 --> 01:51:08,640
Speaker 14: Hey, Okay, I'm probably going to disagree with you on

1946
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:10,359
one question, but can I just get this off my

1947
01:51:10,399 --> 01:51:11,840
head first?

1948
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:12,520
Speaker 3: I don't know if you.

1949
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:15,359
Speaker 14: Saw Charlie Kirk talking to Michael Noles.

1950
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 4: I heard they had a debate. I've not seen it.

1951
01:51:18,159 --> 01:51:19,399
Speaker 11: Yeah, he was making a point.

1952
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:22,399
Speaker 14: He made it against Catholics, but would follow for you two,

1953
01:51:22,560 --> 01:51:26,119
how we take Maccabee's but the Jews don't.

1954
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:29,800
Speaker 3: So why, Well, Jews don't.

1955
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:31,640
Speaker 4: Just Jews don't believe the New Testament.

1956
01:51:31,720 --> 01:51:34,399
Speaker 3: So what That's what I said. But so yeah, so

1957
01:51:34,439 --> 01:51:35,479
that's just a stupid argument.

1958
01:51:35,560 --> 01:51:38,359
Speaker 4: It is a stupid And also, the Apostles site and

1959
01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:42,720
utilize uh dider canonical texts quite often. The subtuo agent

1960
01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:46,560
which the Apostles usually used, included the dider Ken.

1961
01:51:49,199 --> 01:51:54,479
Speaker 14: Okay, nice, second, I want to know your take. I'm

1962
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,479
sure you've deep dived the Fatima.

1963
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 3: Case. Like the miracle. You believe that was a real miracle.

1964
01:52:03,119 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 4: I do not know.

1965
01:52:06,119 --> 01:52:06,279
Speaker 3: Why.

1966
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:09,600
Speaker 4: Even if it was a miracle, it wouldn't have anything

1967
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,079
to do with whether or not we should follow it.

1968
01:52:12,119 --> 01:52:14,319
I mean, what does Jesus say about signs and wonders?

1969
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:19,439
Wicked adulterous generation seeks signs and wonders. Every religion proclaims

1970
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:21,840
signs and wonders. Are you familiar with Mary's so called

1971
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:22,880
apparition at Zaytun?

1972
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:25,840
Speaker 3: No, I haven't heard that one.

1973
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:28,960
Speaker 4: So if you look up the Zytoon apparition in Egypt,

1974
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:33,079
this is the most famous recent apparition. Thousands of Egyptians

1975
01:52:33,119 --> 01:52:37,199
saw supposedly the Virgin Marya appear over a Coptic church

1976
01:52:37,279 --> 01:52:41,479
in Egypt and Zytune does that prove Coptic Christianity truth?

1977
01:52:44,079 --> 01:52:47,600
Probably not know right, So Mary and apparitions cannot be

1978
01:52:48,359 --> 01:52:51,399
the thing that proves the true Church. I do believe

1979
01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:54,920
that the true Church will have miracles and things like this,

1980
01:52:55,079 --> 01:52:58,159
that's definitely they will accompany the true faith. But you

1981
01:52:58,239 --> 01:53:01,760
can't make those signs in one there's the thing that

1982
01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:05,800
proves the true faith because every group claims and has

1983
01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:12,359
these theories and operation claims. Also, my specific theory on

1984
01:53:14,159 --> 01:53:16,760
that is that I wrote an essay on this maybe

1985
01:53:16,800 --> 01:53:18,399
ten years ago. If you go to my website, type

1986
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:22,399
mbattament will come up. My theory is that this was

1987
01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:24,840
part of the geopolitics of the time that they were

1988
01:53:24,840 --> 01:53:30,079
looking to and were already prepping for World War One,

1989
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:32,520
and so they were looking for this enemy that they

1990
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:38,159
wanted to really hype up. Also, the West exported, particularly

1991
01:53:39,119 --> 01:53:43,960
certain groups and people exported Marxism in Bolshevism to Russia.

1992
01:53:44,039 --> 01:53:48,760
And Mary curiously doesn't mention that. Mary seems to say

1993
01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:52,239
the things that literally the Anglo American establishment said and

1994
01:53:52,279 --> 01:53:55,000
wanted to be the case. So I do not believe

1995
01:53:55,239 --> 01:53:58,560
that Mary was working with the banking elite to try

1996
01:53:58,600 --> 01:54:00,880
to destroy Sorry.

1997
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:06,920
Speaker 14: Right, but then those girls, like when the main miracle happened, right,

1998
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:09,600
there's like fifty thousand people or something that saw it.

1999
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:12,199
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, I mean there's around that many at Zaytun Egypt.

2000
01:54:12,239 --> 01:54:13,760
Speaker 3: So I don't know what I'm saying.

2001
01:54:13,760 --> 01:54:17,279
Speaker 14: The girls had like six encounters before that main one.

2002
01:54:18,199 --> 01:54:20,079
Speaker 3: Doesn't that add a little more validity to it?

2003
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:24,359
Speaker 4: Well, I mean there were there were there were very

2004
01:54:24,399 --> 01:54:27,600
famous fake news stories even prior to this. Look up

2005
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:32,840
the Great Moon hoax in the eighteen seventies or eighties.

2006
01:54:33,279 --> 01:54:38,800
So because there's some news footage or a newspaper claim

2007
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:43,039
out of Portugal, I mean one hundred years plus years ago. Look,

2008
01:54:43,079 --> 01:54:45,119
how is that proof that? I mean says, who, how

2009
01:54:45,119 --> 01:54:45,680
do we know that?

2010
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:51,119
Speaker 14: No, I'm just I'm just saying they talked about before

2011
01:54:51,199 --> 01:54:54,039
the actual big event happened. They were saying a big

2012
01:54:54,079 --> 01:54:56,319
events can happen. That's why people were waiting there.

2013
01:54:56,680 --> 01:54:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's exactly what would happen if you're going

2014
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:00,279
to stage an event like that. Have you looked into

2015
01:55:00,279 --> 01:55:02,680
the CIA's history of staging these kinds of events.

2016
01:55:04,920 --> 01:55:07,159
Speaker 3: See this where we're going to disagree.

2017
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:10,920
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you can believe or not believe whatever

2018
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:13,640
you want. You're saying the CIA doesn't stage religious events.

2019
01:55:13,800 --> 01:55:16,960
Speaker 14: No, I mean, well, I haven't heard actually anything about

2020
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:20,479
religious events, but I know CIA is fucked up, right.

2021
01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:23,520
Speaker 4: So I covered Michael Graziano's book, which is right over

2022
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:25,119
on the sheltered a whole talk on it where the

2023
01:55:25,159 --> 01:55:28,920
CIA was discussing staging the Second Coming under Ed Lansdale.

2024
01:55:29,439 --> 01:55:38,039
During the Cold War, CIA famously staged the Chupacabra vampire

2025
01:55:38,159 --> 01:55:45,119
stuff in the Philippines to in this situation, the Hook Rebellion.

2026
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:50,079
They staged religious miracles there. They've staged stuff in Latin

2027
01:55:50,119 --> 01:55:53,920
South America to promote Catholicism. So they actually have a

2028
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:58,319
well documented from academic text history of staging these kinds

2029
01:55:58,319 --> 01:56:00,000
of religious apparition events.

2030
01:56:01,159 --> 01:56:02,199
Speaker 3: So what do you think then.

2031
01:56:02,359 --> 01:56:05,119
Speaker 4: By the way, I'm not saying that the CIA stage Fatima.

2032
01:56:05,159 --> 01:56:07,279
There was no CIA at the times. Also, some idiots

2033
01:56:07,319 --> 01:56:09,840
gonna say I'm saying I'm not saying that, but I'm

2034
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:14,479
saying that there have been a known large scale religious

2035
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:18,880
forgeries and frauds that have existed for centuries and millennia.

2036
01:56:19,760 --> 01:56:22,000
It is not without it is not outside of the

2037
01:56:22,039 --> 01:56:25,520
pale of in my view, the Western establishment, even at

2038
01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:28,560
the time of Fatima, to stage that type of an event.

2039
01:56:29,239 --> 01:56:32,159
Which again, is there a direct proof of staging. No,

2040
01:56:32,239 --> 01:56:36,119
but there is a pattern of intelligence stagency staging going

2041
01:56:36,159 --> 01:56:39,399
back earlier than the CIA, into the OSS, into the Inquiry,

2042
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:44,960
so it is possible. In fact, even tradcat Michael Jones

2043
01:56:45,239 --> 01:56:48,479
believes that Megi Gore is a CIA sigh up that

2044
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:51,439
they stage. So I just go one step further. If

2045
01:56:51,439 --> 01:56:53,319
Megia Gory can be staged by the CIA for the

2046
01:56:53,359 --> 01:56:57,760
Cold War, as Emichael Jones emits, so can Fatima for

2047
01:56:58,239 --> 01:56:59,960
the West pre World War One?

2048
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,560
Speaker 14: Okay, I see that just another kind of on topic here,

2049
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:09,039
So then would like when Paul talks about testing the spirits,

2050
01:57:09,119 --> 01:57:12,840
could it then could they then fake a religious experience

2051
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:16,920
that like aligns with the spirit, So we really wouldn't

2052
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:20,439
be able to tell like like at all.

2053
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:23,239
Speaker 4: We'll take magic Gory for example. I mean, if magic

2054
01:57:23,239 --> 01:57:27,720
Gorey is a fraud, then that has duped millions and

2055
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:31,640
millions of Roman Catholics and you know Pilgrims, and so

2056
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:33,920
what do you, like, what do you mean by aligning

2057
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:35,640
with the spirit? I understand, Like I'm.

2058
01:57:35,479 --> 01:57:39,720
Speaker 14: Saying like like false lights, like for example, like muhammad Cave,

2059
01:57:40,079 --> 01:57:42,680
Like if false lights come, we're told to test the

2060
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:45,359
spirits to make sure they're actually from God, not like

2061
01:57:45,439 --> 01:57:47,560
a devil of light or something.

2062
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:50,199
Speaker 4: We don't even know that this was actually some miraculous event.

2063
01:57:50,239 --> 01:57:52,520
It could be completely whole, wholesale staged.

2064
01:57:53,199 --> 01:57:56,319
Speaker 14: No, I'm just saying hype like off Fatima, Now, like

2065
01:57:56,640 --> 01:57:59,239
could we ever know then like if they can stage

2066
01:57:59,279 --> 01:58:03,479
the event to line up with what the spirit would hypothetically, Well.

2067
01:58:03,319 --> 01:58:05,439
Speaker 4: This is what I'm saying, is that the New Testament

2068
01:58:05,439 --> 01:58:08,960
I think, tells us not to go by signs and wonders.

2069
01:58:09,039 --> 01:58:13,880
The stricture is you go by the prior revelation, and

2070
01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:17,319
that's what judges any future so called revelation, for example,

2071
01:58:17,359 --> 01:58:22,039
Deuteronomy thirteen, Deuteronomy eighteen, and Galatians one, which Galatians is

2072
01:58:22,079 --> 01:58:26,439
actually following in consort with Deuteronomy thirteen and eighteen about

2073
01:58:26,439 --> 01:58:29,880
the principle of how you judge so called profits, miracles, signs,

2074
01:58:29,880 --> 01:58:33,359
and wonders is whether they line up with previous revelation.

2075
01:58:33,479 --> 01:58:36,039
That's the test. So I'm not sure what you're talking

2076
01:58:36,079 --> 01:58:39,800
about with how how could they do you? What do

2077
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:40,079
you mean?

2078
01:58:41,239 --> 01:58:43,960
Speaker 14: Like, I'm just like if a spirit comes to you,

2079
01:58:44,319 --> 01:58:47,399
unless I'm misinterpreting it, like I say, like a light

2080
01:58:48,239 --> 01:58:53,960
light comes to you posing as an angel something right, right, right,

2081
01:58:54,000 --> 01:58:55,720
You're supposed to test that spirit?

2082
01:58:56,159 --> 01:58:57,640
Speaker 4: How although how do you do that?

2083
01:58:59,239 --> 01:59:02,239
Speaker 14: Maybe like ask stuff that would line up with the gospel.

2084
01:59:02,279 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, well, that's what I'm saying. So

2085
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:08,720
we already have in Deuterami thirteen, deuteronymy eighteen, and Galatians

2086
01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:11,520
one the answer to the very question that you're raising,

2087
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:15,560
which is, if there arises among you a prophet, a

2088
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:19,359
dreamer of dreams, signs, and wonders, and it does not

2089
01:59:19,479 --> 01:59:22,479
come to pass, then you know that they're lying, and

2090
01:59:22,520 --> 01:59:25,279
you don't follow whatever they're telling you to do because

2091
01:59:25,319 --> 01:59:28,079
the Lord is testing you. The same type of statement

2092
01:59:28,119 --> 01:59:30,880
is stated in Douronmy eighteen. And then when Paul says

2093
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:35,079
in Galatians one, you do not go after any sign

2094
01:59:35,159 --> 01:59:37,800
or wonder, angel or whatever, because Satan can appear as

2095
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:41,880
an angel light, right, So signs and wonders are secondary too. Revelation,

2096
01:59:42,039 --> 01:59:45,000
is what I'm trying to say. So that's the test

2097
01:59:45,079 --> 01:59:47,560
that we have. That's how you discern the spirits. As

2098
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:52,239
Paul later says, And in my view, Fatama, for example,

2099
01:59:54,359 --> 01:59:56,960
where was this conversion of Russia to the Immaculate Heart.

2100
01:59:57,000 --> 02:00:00,600
Now they'll say, oh, well, the pope didn't do this, right, Well,

2101
02:00:00,600 --> 02:00:07,119
the Pope has supposedly consecrated Russia multiple times and Russia

2102
02:00:07,159 --> 02:00:11,800
has not converted to Papism. So the whole mythos of

2103
02:00:11,800 --> 02:00:17,079
Fatima is literally all directed towards papal geopolitical power. It's

2104
02:00:17,119 --> 02:00:19,960
all about whether Russia, which just happens to be the

2105
02:00:20,079 --> 02:00:23,479
enemy of the Angle American establishment. Particularly at that point

2106
02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:26,359
if you read quickly, even quickly, he's not talking about Fatima,

2107
02:00:26,439 --> 02:00:28,920
but he's talking about the geopolitical power structure. At that

2108
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:31,840
time World War One, right, the two enemies of the

2109
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:35,359
West are Austro Hungarian Empire and Russia. So it just

2110
02:00:35,479 --> 02:00:38,239
does not make sense to me that Mary is going

2111
02:00:38,279 --> 02:00:41,640
to promise all this stuff, talk about all this stuff,

2112
02:00:42,319 --> 02:00:46,520
and all of what Fatima is about is papalism and

2113
02:00:46,600 --> 02:00:50,239
Roman Catholic specific doctrines like the Immaculate Conception and all

2114
02:00:50,239 --> 02:00:50,720
this stuff.

2115
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:56,000
Speaker 14: So what's the because I'm just kind of looking into Fatima, Now,

2116
02:00:56,039 --> 02:00:58,079
what's the third secret?

2117
02:00:58,359 --> 02:01:00,560
Speaker 4: Well, this is another I would argue, this is another

2118
02:01:00,920 --> 02:01:05,359
reason why it's bogus, because you can spend the next

2119
02:01:05,359 --> 02:01:08,199
twenty years going down the rabbit hole of the trad

2120
02:01:08,239 --> 02:01:13,119
cat madness of the third secret, where who knows it's

2121
02:01:13,119 --> 02:01:16,479
anybody's guest because supposedly it was hidden and the popes

2122
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:19,560
didn't want to reveal it publicly, and then supposedly under

2123
02:01:20,079 --> 02:01:22,399
John Paul the Second, it was red but it was nothing,

2124
02:01:22,439 --> 02:01:24,359
but the trad cats say, jump all the Second covered

2125
02:01:24,359 --> 02:01:26,239
it up because he wasn't a real trad and they

2126
02:01:26,279 --> 02:01:28,920
switched out the Sister Lucia, and it's a clone, and

2127
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,560
it's a fake Sister Lucia. It's a never ending rabbit

2128
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:34,239
hole that is absolutely worthless.

2129
02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:37,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that seems I know. I was trying to

2130
02:01:37,199 --> 02:01:38,479
go and it was just too deep.

2131
02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:41,720
Speaker 4: Apart, you'll never get anything. So trust me, I was

2132
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:44,439
in the tradcat world, wandering in this hall of mirrors

2133
02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:47,880
and smoking mirrors for I don't know ten years. And

2134
02:01:49,239 --> 02:01:53,119
by the way, has everyone forgotten remember when what four

2135
02:01:53,199 --> 02:01:56,359
years ago Lofton and everybody they were making videos that

2136
02:01:56,560 --> 02:01:59,439
remember Roman called world was going crazy that Francis is

2137
02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:04,520
concert creating Russia to the Immaculate Heart finally, finally, And

2138
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:08,199
I did multiple videos on this because I said, guess what,

2139
02:02:08,760 --> 02:02:12,760
nothing will happen. Now, let's take note of this because

2140
02:02:12,840 --> 02:02:14,439
I'm going to make what I think is a really

2141
02:02:14,479 --> 02:02:17,680
strong argument here and I'll let you talk to you

2142
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:21,439
in Alex here. So let's go to Fatima on my channel,

2143
02:02:21,479 --> 02:02:25,960
and we're going to look at this video when Francis

2144
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:33,600
was supposedly finally consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart right here.

2145
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:38,760
This one his favorite YouTuber. So this was two years ago,

2146
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:44,840
March twenty twenty, so almost three years ago, March twenty

2147
02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:47,319
twenty two. By the way, most of this podcast, if

2148
02:02:47,359 --> 02:02:48,880
you want to go out and review it, I'm covering

2149
02:02:49,039 --> 02:02:51,920
my article that I wrote a long time ago about

2150
02:02:51,920 --> 02:02:57,159
Fatima and Syops. So all the Romancounts are going crazy

2151
02:02:57,159 --> 02:02:59,239
because at this time they were saying Francis was about

2152
02:02:59,279 --> 02:03:02,720
to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart. Finally Russia was

2153
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:06,039
going to become Roman Catholic, and we all sat around

2154
02:03:06,079 --> 02:03:09,840
laughing because we'd pointed out, guess what, nothing's going to happen.

2155
02:03:10,439 --> 02:03:13,520
And it doesn't matter whether he is or isn't consecrating

2156
02:03:13,560 --> 02:03:15,600
Rushi to the Emacular Heart. This was supposed to have

2157
02:03:15,640 --> 02:03:18,680
been done back at the time, and there's like ten

2158
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:20,800
different times when the Roman Catholics said, well, he didn't

2159
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:22,119
really do it, but he's really going to do it

2160
02:03:22,159 --> 02:03:26,000
next time. This scam has been going on since Fatima,

2161
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:29,119
and why can't if first of all, why can't he

2162
02:03:29,239 --> 02:03:31,960
just do it? Like if you're a Roman Catholic and

2163
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:35,479
you believe this stuff, all the Pope has to do

2164
02:03:35,560 --> 02:03:38,399
is just come out and do the consecration supposedly the

2165
02:03:38,399 --> 02:03:41,680
way Mary said to do it. But there's this weird

2166
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:44,560
loophole where, well, but he didn't exactly do it technically

2167
02:03:44,600 --> 02:03:46,279
the way Mary really told him to do it. So

2168
02:03:46,319 --> 02:03:49,039
it's a never ending. It's almost like Harold Camping, who

2169
02:03:49,079 --> 02:03:52,800
was that Protestant goofball that died not too long ago,

2170
02:03:53,279 --> 02:03:56,279
who that evangelical end times guy was always predicting the

2171
02:03:56,359 --> 02:03:58,279
end of the world, and then every time it wouldn't happen,

2172
02:03:58,279 --> 02:04:00,399
he would say, oh, I got my calculations, but I

2173
02:04:00,399 --> 02:04:02,560
got it right this time. So literally we would get

2174
02:04:02,600 --> 02:04:05,039
it wrong like every few years and just alter the

2175
02:04:05,039 --> 02:04:06,359
thing and say, well, I got it wrong, but I'll

2176
02:04:06,359 --> 02:04:08,199
get it wrong. I'll get it right next time. What

2177
02:04:08,359 --> 02:04:12,279
does Deuteronomy actually say when the thing doesn't come to pass,

2178
02:04:13,239 --> 02:04:17,000
you know, not to listen to them. Well, guess what.

2179
02:04:17,119 --> 02:04:19,840
How many times have we been told that the Immaculate

2180
02:04:19,840 --> 02:04:21,800
Heart of Marry is going to be uh, you know

2181
02:04:21,920 --> 02:04:24,600
what Russia converts to and they're going to return to

2182
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:27,920
the Holy Father And this has never happened. Therefore I

2183
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:31,319
don't have to listen to the pope and Ptoma.

2184
02:04:33,319 --> 02:04:37,000
Speaker 14: That makes sense, I mean, yeah, so the couple things

2185
02:04:37,039 --> 02:04:39,640
came true though, right, like the World War two prediction

2186
02:04:40,239 --> 02:04:40,479
or no?

2187
02:04:41,119 --> 02:04:45,079
Speaker 4: Well, I mean so so what so we were even

2188
02:04:45,119 --> 02:04:47,680
if that were the case and it wasn't staged. So

2189
02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:52,279
what it's it's like a sixty thirty percent. So you

2190
02:04:52,560 --> 02:04:54,800
so what three out of three, out of one, out

2191
02:04:54,800 --> 02:04:58,319
of three, two out of three. I mean this says.

2192
02:04:58,520 --> 02:05:01,159
This says that you got to be like one hundred percent,

2193
02:05:01,279 --> 02:05:04,800
Like you don't get like a sixty percent prophecy, you know,

2194
02:05:06,399 --> 02:05:10,239
a good try, you know, certificate of good merit. You

2195
02:05:10,239 --> 02:05:12,359
were almost a one hundred percent profit, but you're only

2196
02:05:12,359 --> 02:05:14,960
about a sixty percent profit. So anyway, thank you for

2197
02:05:15,000 --> 02:05:18,880
your questions. I appreciate it. But those are my theories

2198
02:05:18,880 --> 02:05:23,079
on Fatima. I don't hinge everything on Fatima. If somebody

2199
02:05:23,119 --> 02:05:25,479
has a different there's different people. Some people in Orthodox Church.

2200
02:05:25,479 --> 02:05:28,600
I actually think Fatima is an Orthodox thing. I don't

2201
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:30,840
know where you would ever get that, but some people

2202
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:34,279
think that it seems obvious to me when you read

2203
02:05:34,359 --> 02:05:38,720
through Fatima. It's completely one hundred percent committed to weird

2204
02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:41,199
Roman Catholic doctrines like the Immaculate Heart of Mary and

2205
02:05:41,199 --> 02:05:49,239
all this stuff, So dude, what's up. I think it's

2206
02:05:49,279 --> 02:05:52,000
also one of the last resorts like for people who

2207
02:05:52,000 --> 02:05:54,159
are really doubting Rome and all this, like they just

2208
02:05:54,279 --> 02:05:56,800
run to the Mary and apparition stuff like, well, I

2209
02:05:56,840 --> 02:05:59,279
don't know, it all seems like it doesn't make sense

2210
02:05:59,319 --> 02:06:02,279
and for ancest is contradicted. Well, but you know what, Mary,

2211
02:06:02,600 --> 02:06:04,600
I don't know. It's like the last sort of like

2212
02:06:05,239 --> 02:06:07,479
bastion thing. But to me, it's just like really weak.

2213
02:06:10,359 --> 02:06:14,600
What's up, dude, don't you hey, Jamie, could you make

2214
02:06:14,640 --> 02:06:19,359
another one? This was really weak. I know it's the

2215
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:25,680
it's not your fault, it's the faulty machine here. Yeah,

2216
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:27,920
I mean so you ran I thought he wanted to debate.

2217
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:33,319
He ran away. No, he's back. The dude on mute.

2218
02:06:34,439 --> 02:06:36,239
We got the big Lebowski, we got the dude.

2219
02:06:36,600 --> 02:06:37,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, love that.

2220
02:06:38,479 --> 02:06:42,079
Speaker 17: It just was kind of freaking out, like, uh, I

2221
02:06:42,079 --> 02:06:46,079
don't know what was all right? Uh first off, kind

2222
02:06:46,119 --> 02:06:51,840
of conspiratorial mindset here. Uh. I guess we'll just thank

2223
02:06:52,079 --> 02:06:56,600
Alex Jones for that one. And uh uh you know,

2224
02:06:57,600 --> 02:07:00,359
I guess the first thing I would disagree with would be,

2225
02:07:00,520 --> 02:07:04,640
uh the perpetual virgin thing. Not that I really not

2226
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:06,720
that I don't want to. I don't want to put

2227
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:09,079
too much stake in this because I really I don't.

2228
02:07:09,399 --> 02:07:11,920
I don't really have a dog in this fight. But

2229
02:07:13,039 --> 02:07:16,760
like in in the Bible specifically, when I think there's

2230
02:07:16,800 --> 02:07:20,920
a few passage maybe there's like one passage in Matthew

2231
02:07:20,960 --> 02:07:24,479
and then another passage in Mark, but it references to uh,

2232
02:07:25,079 --> 02:07:28,920
you know, his brothers and I think maybe even his sisters.

2233
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:31,960
So I think that's kind of the content.

2234
02:07:33,920 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 3: It's there for me.

2235
02:07:36,199 --> 02:07:39,439
Speaker 17: Are you contestants disagree with the Catholics and Orthodox?

2236
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:43,279
Speaker 4: I know, we know, but uh, the word can mean

2237
02:07:43,479 --> 02:07:46,800
just relative, distent relatives and cousins, so it doesn't it

2238
02:07:46,840 --> 02:07:50,159
does not necessitate a biological brother.

2239
02:07:51,399 --> 02:07:53,760
Speaker 17: And I think that was kind of the the baseline

2240
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:56,399
for Martin Luther to Uh.

2241
02:07:57,119 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 4: No, that's false. Did Martin Luther believed in the perpetual

2242
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:01,680
virginity as did Calvin? So that's Falseome?

2243
02:08:02,199 --> 02:08:05,319
Speaker 17: Well, no, no, no, no, I was I was stating,

2244
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:10,439
you know, the agreeance with that from your standpoint, he

2245
02:08:10,479 --> 02:08:12,439
did believe in a perpetual version.

2246
02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:13,000
Speaker 4: Correct.

2247
02:08:13,319 --> 02:08:17,239
Speaker 17: Uh you know that wasn't really a Protestant belief until

2248
02:08:17,239 --> 02:08:18,279
further down the line.

2249
02:08:18,399 --> 02:08:19,399
Speaker 4: Correct.

2250
02:08:20,399 --> 02:08:25,840
Speaker 17: So yeah, Now I got another disagreement here.

2251
02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:28,640
Speaker 3: Kind of having to do with the whole Uh. I

2252
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:30,439
noticed that first off?

2253
02:08:31,159 --> 02:08:34,039
Speaker 17: Maybe a segue here, I'd like to reiterate that, you know,

2254
02:08:34,239 --> 02:08:37,880
Martin Luther, I don't think he really had any ill blood.

2255
02:08:39,239 --> 02:08:42,319
I think he Actually, I'm not one hundred percent on this,

2256
02:08:42,399 --> 02:08:46,680
but I do believe he tried to do some reunifications

2257
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:49,960
and restructuring with the Catholic Church. I don't know if

2258
02:08:50,000 --> 02:08:54,640
that was pre him being excommunicated or not. And then

2259
02:08:54,680 --> 02:08:57,439
I also believe in his later days, and I could

2260
02:08:57,479 --> 02:09:00,399
be wrong, but I thought he tried some sort of

2261
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:03,520
reunification with the Eastern Orthodox as well.

2262
02:09:04,239 --> 02:09:06,520
Speaker 4: I mean he wrote some letters and there was some contact,

2263
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:09,439
but there was not any attempts to have reunification. I

2264
02:09:09,439 --> 02:09:12,239
mean later Luthor. I've read a lot of Luther. I

2265
02:09:12,279 --> 02:09:13,800
went through a phase when I was a Protestant. I

2266
02:09:13,840 --> 02:09:17,039
read about six or seven of Luther's books. There was

2267
02:09:17,039 --> 02:09:19,239
a there was a period where he kind of reached out.

2268
02:09:19,359 --> 02:09:22,920
But later Luther gets really sort of adamant about things

2269
02:09:23,039 --> 02:09:28,199
like Solofide, and he was not interested in Orthodox position

2270
02:09:28,239 --> 02:09:31,239
because they didn't they weren't. They weren't interested in Solofide.

2271
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,239
Speaker 3: Right, and so on.

2272
02:09:38,319 --> 02:09:44,600
Speaker 17: That big separation from the Catholicism is stim some other disagreements,

2273
02:09:44,680 --> 02:09:48,560
like purgatory. Obviously I don't believe in purgatory.

2274
02:09:49,039 --> 02:09:51,520
Speaker 4: Well there were the doors. Doesn't believe in purgatory.

2275
02:09:51,119 --> 02:09:54,800
Speaker 17: So, oh, that's right, Okay, Yeah, So when I was

2276
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:59,039
briefed on the two different other sects when I went

2277
02:09:59,119 --> 02:10:02,840
through a confirmation or whatever, and I'm not very devout anymore,

2278
02:10:02,880 --> 02:10:06,039
but I still read a lot and long story short,

2279
02:10:06,119 --> 02:10:09,359
when we were talking about him, I remember very little,

2280
02:10:09,399 --> 02:10:13,560
but it was more or less described as the.

2281
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:14,399
Speaker 3: Lesser of the two evils.

2282
02:10:14,479 --> 02:10:19,920
Speaker 17: Between the initial start of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox,

2283
02:10:20,039 --> 02:10:20,880
the Great Schism.

2284
02:10:20,960 --> 02:10:22,359
Speaker 3: We briefly touched.

2285
02:10:22,079 --> 02:10:27,159
Speaker 17: All of that, and so, like, I guess I forgot that.

2286
02:10:27,479 --> 02:10:32,439
So what about prayers to the dead? Is that a

2287
02:10:32,479 --> 02:10:33,439
thing for the Orthodox?

2288
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:36,560
Speaker 4: I thought the Saints, so we don't believe that they're dead.

2289
02:10:36,600 --> 02:10:38,760
We believe they're alive to God. And if you read

2290
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:42,439
Revelation five through nine, John season to heaven on the

2291
02:10:42,479 --> 02:10:45,680
Lord's Day. So he's in the liturgical worship, he's officiating

2292
02:10:45,760 --> 02:10:49,079
the altar, and he interacts with the Saints the angels

2293
02:10:49,079 --> 02:10:54,279
in heaven, and they're doing the prayers in heaven for

2294
02:10:54,479 --> 02:10:56,840
the church on earth. So it's community of saints. It's

2295
02:10:56,840 --> 02:10:58,199
not talking to the dead.

2296
02:11:00,079 --> 02:11:03,720
Speaker 3: I guess I was maybe I got that mixed up.

2297
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:06,319
Speaker 17: I thought I thought the talking to the saints thing

2298
02:11:06,520 --> 02:11:10,640
was a praying to the saints to be the mediator

2299
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:11,119
or whatever.

2300
02:11:11,159 --> 02:11:11,720
Speaker 16: I thought that was.

2301
02:11:13,479 --> 02:11:15,760
Speaker 4: Called communion of saints and it's the idea that the

2302
02:11:15,800 --> 02:11:17,079
Saints intercede for us.

2303
02:11:18,199 --> 02:11:21,359
Speaker 17: Okay, Yeah, No, I thought there was specific like prayers

2304
02:11:21,399 --> 02:11:25,079
to purify the dead or whatever in the Orthodoxy tradition.

2305
02:11:25,359 --> 02:11:27,119
Speaker 3: I thought the Catholics did that too.

2306
02:11:28,000 --> 02:11:30,920
Speaker 4: I'm not. I mean, we pray for the dead, is

2307
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:31,680
that you're talking about?

2308
02:11:33,119 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2309
02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:37,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, the people who are newly deceased are prayed for

2310
02:11:37,239 --> 02:11:42,359
in the liturgy. Correct. That is an Orthodox and Catholic practice.

2311
02:11:42,600 --> 02:11:46,239
It's in the Book of Maccabis too. It's a noble

2312
02:11:46,279 --> 02:11:46,840
thing to pray.

2313
02:11:46,720 --> 02:11:49,359
Speaker 17: For the dead, Okay, and the meaning that's why the

2314
02:11:49,760 --> 02:11:53,000
you know, the Protestants, don't you know, follow that. You know,

2315
02:11:53,319 --> 02:11:56,439
I understand that Luther didn't really kick it to the

2316
02:11:56,520 --> 02:12:01,000
curb as far as all those additional looks. However, he

2317
02:12:01,039 --> 02:12:04,479
did when he did his translation or whatever.

2318
02:12:05,159 --> 02:12:09,039
Speaker 4: I know he did explicitly later he later explicitly said

2319
02:12:09,039 --> 02:12:11,880
that he does not like those books because they afford

2320
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:15,760
the Catholics proof for their doctrines. So appreciate your questions. Man,

2321
02:12:15,760 --> 02:12:18,000
We're going to move on. Look for people who disagree.

2322
02:12:18,279 --> 02:12:21,239
If you have an argument. If you'd like to pose

2323
02:12:21,319 --> 02:12:24,840
an argument against me, if you'd like to raise an issue,

2324
02:12:24,880 --> 02:12:26,520
you can have a floor. You can argue for as

2325
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:29,600
long as you like. Raise your hand. If you are

2326
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:32,319
in the quay. We've got eleven people waiting, so let

2327
02:12:32,319 --> 02:12:34,199
me know. If you disagree, you go to the headline

2328
02:12:35,239 --> 02:12:49,119
and I will go to you first. So, Joshua, what's up, dude?

2329
02:12:52,760 --> 02:12:53,199
What's up?

2330
02:12:55,279 --> 02:12:55,560
Speaker 3: Okay?

2331
02:12:55,840 --> 02:13:02,880
Speaker 22: So kind of argument and a question, But how do

2332
02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:11,680
you have a personal being in procession? So you know,

2333
02:13:11,760 --> 02:13:18,279
the sun is begotten, but the Holy Spirit proceeds. But

2334
02:13:18,439 --> 02:13:23,159
they're both personal beings. And as far as I understand,

2335
02:13:24,479 --> 02:13:28,960
the procession is something like a breath from God.

2336
02:13:30,039 --> 02:13:33,640
Speaker 4: So no breath is just one of the biblical analogies

2337
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:37,079
for the person of the Holy Spirit. It's not intended

2338
02:13:37,119 --> 02:13:43,720
to define his procession. Procession is the particular personal property

2339
02:13:43,720 --> 02:13:48,279
that picks out the Holy Spirit. So what's the question?

2340
02:13:50,279 --> 02:13:51,680
Speaker 3: So wouldn't that make.

2341
02:13:53,119 --> 02:13:59,279
Speaker 22: Wouldn't that make the sun and the Spirit, you know, indifferentiable?

2342
02:13:59,319 --> 02:14:02,920
Speaker 3: You cann't really tell them apart. No.

2343
02:14:03,039 --> 02:14:06,880
Speaker 4: In fact, the Unomians raised this question to Basil, and

2344
02:14:06,920 --> 02:14:10,960
Basil says that that there's a distinction between generation and procession.

2345
02:14:11,039 --> 02:14:13,880
We know exactly what that distinction is. We do not know.

2346
02:14:14,359 --> 02:14:16,399
So there's a lot of elements that we're not told

2347
02:14:16,399 --> 02:14:18,800
in Divine revelation about the person of the Holy Spirit.

2348
02:14:19,319 --> 02:14:21,600
And Gregoro Nuts I think is Gregory nat Sanzos says

2349
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:24,119
that in the Escaton the Holy Spirit will be more

2350
02:14:24,399 --> 02:14:29,159
known than he is in our era. So no, so

2351
02:14:29,199 --> 02:14:30,840
there's a lot more to this question. It's not a

2352
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:37,159
question of somehow Philioque would give a character to the Spirit.

2353
02:14:37,239 --> 02:14:40,359
I've never understood this argument. I'm not trying to knock you.

2354
02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:43,880
It's a common Roman, Catholic and Protestant argument. I literally

2355
02:14:43,920 --> 02:14:45,800
have no idea what this argument is supposed to prove.

2356
02:14:45,880 --> 02:14:45,920
Speaker 3: It.

2357
02:14:46,199 --> 02:14:48,640
Speaker 4: I think it stems from the idea that the only

2358
02:14:48,640 --> 02:14:51,399
way to distinguish persons is relations of opposition or something

2359
02:14:51,439 --> 02:14:55,000
like that, or you know, one comes from the Father,

2360
02:14:55,199 --> 02:14:56,920
the other one can only be distinguished if he comes

2361
02:14:56,920 --> 02:14:59,520
from two. I mean, this is totally stupid if you

2362
02:14:59,560 --> 02:15:02,760
think about in terms of theological augmentation, because it's a

2363
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:06,000
subordination of the Holy Spirit to try to distinguish him

2364
02:15:06,359 --> 02:15:09,840
by not having something that the first two people possess.

2365
02:15:09,600 --> 02:15:12,960
It's that stupid, and in fact it's the very argumentation

2366
02:15:13,199 --> 02:15:17,079
of the Cappadocians against the subordinationists of their time. Because

2367
02:15:17,079 --> 02:15:20,239
the subordinations of their time, we're arguing that you can

2368
02:15:20,279 --> 02:15:24,159
have these different levels in God as if well, there's

2369
02:15:24,199 --> 02:15:26,960
these powers that this one has that this one lacks,

2370
02:15:27,359 --> 02:15:30,119
this one has this power of being this and the

2371
02:15:30,199 --> 02:15:32,439
Father and the Son together could do this. I mean,

2372
02:15:32,479 --> 02:15:35,800
it's an extension of the argumentation of the heretics to

2373
02:15:35,960 --> 02:15:39,199
argue that the Holy Spirit precedes by will, or that

2374
02:15:39,279 --> 02:15:41,239
he proceeds from the Father and the Son as a

2375
02:15:41,279 --> 02:15:45,399
single principle. There's no power or attribute that two people

2376
02:15:45,439 --> 02:15:48,640
in the Trinity share that one lacks. All the philioque

2377
02:15:48,800 --> 02:15:52,199
ugmentation is premised on that very point, So that subordinates

2378
02:15:52,239 --> 02:15:55,199
the Spirit he lacks the power of causing a person.

2379
02:16:00,199 --> 02:16:04,279
Speaker 22: The procession from the son, I mean, we would say

2380
02:16:04,279 --> 02:16:07,000
the procession from the Son to the Spirit is not.

2381
02:16:09,399 --> 02:16:10,640
Speaker 3: It's not exactly the.

2382
02:16:10,560 --> 02:16:16,159
Speaker 22: Same procession as from the Father through the Son.

2383
02:16:16,520 --> 02:16:19,800
Speaker 4: Well, that's even worse because that means that there's partition

2384
02:16:19,960 --> 02:16:23,960
in God because the Father contributes something to the Spirit

2385
02:16:24,039 --> 02:16:29,039
that the son, that the Father doesn't contribute something that

2386
02:16:29,079 --> 02:16:33,479
the Son does. So what the Father spir rates fifty

2387
02:16:33,479 --> 02:16:36,360
percent the Holy Spirit and the Son spirates another fifty percent.

2388
02:16:36,399 --> 02:16:39,399
That's again, that's stupid because there's no partitions in God.

2389
02:16:41,799 --> 02:16:46,079
Speaker 22: Well, it would it would all all the procession would

2390
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:48,920
come through the Son the Spirit.

2391
02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:51,799
Speaker 4: Okay, does the Father generate a son whole and entire?

2392
02:16:55,120 --> 02:16:55,440
Speaker 3: Yes?

2393
02:16:55,680 --> 02:16:58,319
Speaker 4: Right, So when the Father spirrates a spirit, is he

2394
02:16:58,399 --> 02:17:04,280
not whole an entire? Yeah? Correct, Then there's nothing that

2395
02:17:04,319 --> 02:17:10,479
the Sun could contribute to the existential existence of the Spirit. Yeah,

2396
02:17:11,159 --> 02:17:17,479
I mean it, well than that refutes Philqui. That's from

2397
02:17:17,639 --> 02:17:18,760
that's an argument from them.

2398
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:20,799
Speaker 3: That's at the very end of my.

2399
02:17:22,079 --> 02:17:25,040
Speaker 4: That's from the mystic Gadia. I'm literally just repeating mister

2400
02:17:25,079 --> 02:17:25,959
Gauji arguments.

2401
02:17:27,879 --> 02:17:34,159
Speaker 3: So you said that in a.

2402
02:17:34,120 --> 02:17:37,639
Speaker 22: Particular saints said that in the future we would know more.

2403
02:17:37,719 --> 02:17:38,399
Speaker 3: Is that what you said?

2404
02:17:38,600 --> 02:17:41,639
Speaker 4: I believe it's Gregory, not Sanjus who says that the

2405
02:17:42,479 --> 02:17:43,520
it might be one of the it's one of the

2406
02:17:43,559 --> 02:17:46,719
Cappa Docians. It's either Nissa or not Sws. But in

2407
02:17:46,760 --> 02:17:50,680
the asketon, more of the personal character of the Holy

2408
02:17:50,760 --> 02:17:57,719
Spirit would be revealed in the asketon because in this dispensation,

2409
02:17:57,920 --> 02:18:02,399
this era before the Esketon, we have limited ideas and

2410
02:18:02,479 --> 02:18:04,639
details about the person of the Holy Spirit. In the

2411
02:18:04,680 --> 02:18:07,879
New Testament and in Church history we have several I'm

2412
02:18:07,879 --> 02:18:10,799
not saying there's no details. Jesus tells us many things

2413
02:18:10,840 --> 02:18:15,000
about the comforter. He sanctifies, he reveals truth, he points

2414
02:18:15,040 --> 02:18:17,200
people to the Son. The Son then points people to

2415
02:18:17,239 --> 02:18:19,280
the Father, et cetera. So it's not that we don't

2416
02:18:19,319 --> 02:18:22,079
know anything. It's just that the Cavedasians point out that

2417
02:18:22,479 --> 02:18:24,760
we are not told as much about the Holy Spirit

2418
02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:27,760
as we are told about the Sun, and they speculate

2419
02:18:27,799 --> 02:18:29,920
that in the Esketon more would be known about the

2420
02:18:29,920 --> 02:18:36,559
Holy Spirit. It was the escaton, the eternal state.

2421
02:18:40,120 --> 02:18:44,840
Speaker 3: So you're saying in the afterlife will know more.

2422
02:18:46,760 --> 02:18:49,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, as the text from Paul says that I see

2423
02:18:49,799 --> 02:18:54,040
through a glass darkly, but then I will know fully.

2424
02:18:54,719 --> 02:18:59,040
Speaker 22: Okay, all right, yeah, those no.

2425
02:18:59,000 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 4: Those are fair questions, Shay, fair questions on that though.

2426
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:06,639
Those are actually common objections from people in the West

2427
02:19:06,799 --> 02:19:10,440
to the Orthodox doctrine of the procession. But if you

2428
02:19:10,520 --> 02:19:16,760
read mystagogy and then appudect to treatise by Sangraa Palamas

2429
02:19:16,840 --> 02:19:20,520
is really it's actually just building on the mystagogy, and

2430
02:19:20,559 --> 02:19:23,520
it takes the arguments to another level. So most of

2431
02:19:23,559 --> 02:19:26,479
the arguments that are in the mystagogy are one solid,

2432
02:19:26,520 --> 02:19:31,920
they're still they still hold up. But Palamas takes Aristotelian

2433
02:19:32,000 --> 02:19:36,000
logic and applies that to all the arguments that Photius

2434
02:19:36,000 --> 02:19:41,799
makes and just kind of makes the next level. Muge

2435
02:19:41,920 --> 02:19:55,799
Taba Ahmed, Hey.

2436
02:19:55,879 --> 02:19:56,440
Speaker 11: Can you hear me?

2437
02:19:56,760 --> 02:20:03,120
Speaker 23: Yeah, yeah, hey there, Jay, I recognized you from one

2438
02:20:03,159 --> 02:20:06,799
of the debates that you had. But uh, but Jake,

2439
02:20:07,280 --> 02:20:13,600
I met a physician and Daniel Hakika Chu. Yeah, nothing

2440
02:20:13,639 --> 02:20:18,719
specific about those debates, but I was curious, you know,

2441
02:20:18,840 --> 02:20:22,319
from an overview standpoint, what are some of the theological

2442
02:20:22,399 --> 02:20:27,239
differences between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic and the

2443
02:20:27,280 --> 02:20:28,200
Catholic Church.

2444
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:32,319
Speaker 3: So I was just interested, maybe in your words, what

2445
02:20:32,479 --> 02:20:35,959
what are some of those key differences. And and one other.

2446
02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:40,920
Speaker 23: Question I had in Islam, the Virgin, the Virgin Mother Mary,

2447
02:20:41,079 --> 02:20:46,000
may peace be upon her. Uh, she had no husband. Uh,

2448
02:20:46,079 --> 02:20:51,399
she had no physical husband. So I don't know, maybe

2449
02:20:51,520 --> 02:20:54,799
I read it wrong or seen it in videos that

2450
02:20:55,200 --> 02:20:57,319
she did in fact have a husband.

2451
02:20:56,920 --> 02:20:58,680
Speaker 3: In some Christian traditions.

2452
02:20:58,719 --> 02:21:01,399
Speaker 23: So maybe if you can speak supply to that, if

2453
02:21:01,399 --> 02:21:02,280
that's true.

2454
02:21:02,799 --> 02:21:06,159
Speaker 4: Well, I mean in the Orthodox and Catholic churches. Mary

2455
02:21:06,280 --> 02:21:09,000
was betrothed, she was not married in the sense of

2456
02:21:09,799 --> 02:21:15,120
any sexual relations, so we believe she remained a virgin.

2457
02:21:16,120 --> 02:21:21,440
Catholics believe that as well. Many Protestants used to believe that,

2458
02:21:22,000 --> 02:21:23,760
but there are Protestants are all over the place, so

2459
02:21:23,920 --> 02:21:27,719
there's maybe some groups that believe that something else happened.

2460
02:21:27,719 --> 02:21:31,520
I mean, many Protonants believe that she had relations with Joseph,

2461
02:21:31,559 --> 02:21:32,799
but we do not believe that she