1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hello, Federalist Radio Hour friends. It's your amiable host and 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,160 experience shipa Matt Kittle. You know I have the good 3 00:00:08,199 --> 00:00:11,199 fortune of talking to some of the most interesting people 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,960 thought leaders in politics and culture. Today. There's shining light 5 00:00:16,039 --> 00:00:19,199 on some very dark places in our government and fighting 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,879 for the foundational values of this republic, this last best 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,600 hope for liberty, and that's what we do every day 8 00:00:28,039 --> 00:00:32,200 at the Federalist. We can't do that without you. The 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,119 Federalist Foundation is a nonprofit and we depend entirely on 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:41,000 our listeners and readers, not corporations. 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I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at the 17 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,799 Federalist and your experienced SHRPA on today's quest for knowledge. 18 00:01:30,159 --> 00:01:32,840 As always, you can email the show at radio at 19 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:36,799 the Federalist dot com follow us on ex at FDR LST. 20 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:39,760 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 21 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,640 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 22 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:48,400 Our guest today is Brian Blaze, former Trump Advisor staffer 23 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:53,599 and president of the Paragon Health Institute. In a recent 24 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,519 Wall Street Journal op ed, Brian asserts Obamacare is a 25 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:04,799 mecca for fraud, So why are lawmakers, Republican lawmakers at that, 26 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,879 trying so desperately to keep it? Brian, thank you so 27 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,240 much for joining us in this edition of the Federalist 28 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:12,719 Radio Hour. 29 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: It is great to be here. Thanks for having me on. 30 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: Well, you have been a very busy, busy fella of late, 31 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:27,639 most recently this week testifying before the House Judiciary Committee 32 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:32,879 on fighting Obamacare subsidy fraud. And really, you know, that's 33 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,919 what this is all about. The Wall Street Journal op 34 00:02:36,159 --> 00:02:41,840 ed the GAO report of late that verifies everything you're 35 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,960 talking about. Is anyone listening? 36 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, I think the fact that I testified 37 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,120 in front of the Senate Finance Committee three weeks ago, 38 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:57,800 and that is the primary committee with jurisdiction over federal 39 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,479 health care programs, and going in front of the House 40 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:08,000 Judiciary Committee yesterday shows that there is an audience and 41 00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:11,719 that I think a lot of Republicans are rightfully concerned 42 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,280 about what has happened in Obamacare, both the broken promises 43 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,800 that have been well known. You know that people couldn't 44 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,680 keep their plans if they liked them, They lost their doctors. 45 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:27,199 You know. President Obama said premiums would go down twenty 46 00:03:27,199 --> 00:03:34,879 five hundred dollars, and premiums have escalated in Obamacare, and 47 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,120 most recently, and I know we'll get into it, the 48 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,159 fraud that has been exacerbated in the program because of 49 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,479 a bad policy in the Biden administration that expanded subsidies 50 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,240 to health insurance companies. So I think there is an audience. 51 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:57,199 I think that it's unclear whether these expanded subsidies will 52 00:03:57,199 --> 00:04:01,280 get extended, but it does look like they will not 53 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:07,719 get extended this session, and I think that means we 54 00:04:07,759 --> 00:04:12,879 are still fighting and have a reasonable chance at securing 55 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:14,599 a policy victory. 56 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: Here, and that, I guess is the ultimate question. There 57 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,439 are two tracks here. There's obviously what is good, ultimately 58 00:04:23,519 --> 00:04:29,360 good for the healthcare system for the people who use it. 59 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:33,720 I mean, that is the ultimate goal, but you don't 60 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,079 get there unless you control the narrative. And you know 61 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,560 that twenty twenty six, these midterms coming up, the left, 62 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:48,160 the Democratic Party will be using the Republicans in their 63 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:53,120 estimation refusal to help all of these people, that people 64 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,879 are going to be suffering and struggling because they will 65 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,800 no longer have these subsidies, and those awful Republicans held 66 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:08,319 out to kill this healthcare insurance, these healthcare insurance subsidies, 67 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:10,680 all of this sort of you know, the rhetoric is coming. 68 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:15,839 How do Republicans get the message out there, because that 69 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,319 has been the problem for some time with Republicans getting 70 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:23,439 the message out there is hey, we want a healthy 71 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:29,120 healthcare system. Obamacare in the subsidies are a cancer to that. 72 00:05:31,079 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's a good question. And I actually think 73 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:36,680 that the government shut down, and the Democrats shutting down 74 00:05:37,079 --> 00:05:42,399 the government because they felt like sending these massive subsidies 75 00:05:42,439 --> 00:05:46,319 directly to health insurance companies was a policy and political 76 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:50,439 priority for them. That has given an opportunity to educate 77 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,800 members of Congress Republicans on the underlying problems with Obamacare 78 00:05:56,399 --> 00:05:59,759 and also on a set of policy reforms that they 79 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,920 can tout that move us away from government control and 80 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,360 expand power. And control for patients. So let me just 81 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:12,519 go through a few points. One, the underlying subsidies in 82 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,319 Obamacare are permanent. They are a part of the twenty 83 00:06:16,439 --> 00:06:20,519 ten law. So if you go back to Obamacare, what 84 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,360 we are talking about is the individual market for health insurance, 85 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,720 so where people go who don't get a plan from 86 00:06:26,759 --> 00:06:31,240 their employer or who don't get covered through Medicare or Medicaid. 87 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,839 That law put in place regulations on what insurance had 88 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,560 to offer, made it much more expansive, and because those 89 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:45,720 regulations increased the price of insurance, it needed to include 90 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,319 a set of subsidies that would have the taxpayer picking 91 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:53,000 up a large portion of the premium for the enrollly. 92 00:06:53,519 --> 00:06:57,240 So in twenty fourteen, individual market premiums increased about fifty percent. 93 00:06:57,319 --> 00:07:03,120 That's the initial effect of the Obamacare regulations. In twenty fourteen, 94 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,639 the federal government paid about two thirds of the premium, 95 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,720 the enrollee paid about one third. The way that these 96 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:16,240 subsidies are structured is really deeply problematic. They limit the 97 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:20,480 amount that enrollly has to pay, so the enroller share 98 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:24,240 of the premium has been fixed, basically fixed over time. 99 00:07:24,639 --> 00:07:29,199 So his premiums in Obamacare have escalated, the taxpayer has 100 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,120 been the one who bears the full financial responsibility. So 101 00:07:34,199 --> 00:07:38,040 by twenty twenty, the taxpayer was picking up eighty percent 102 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:40,879 of the premium. The enrolly share had gone down to 103 00:07:40,959 --> 00:07:44,319 twenty now in twenty twenty one as part of the 104 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,000 pandemic efforts. And you know, one of the things that 105 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,480 came out of the pandemic was a massive expansion in government. 106 00:07:51,879 --> 00:07:55,399 And one way that they expanded government was by sending 107 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:01,600 additional subsidies to insurers, which replaced even a shrinking a 108 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:08,480 small enrollly share with more taxpayer dollars. So the enrollly 109 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,480 share of the premium over the last five years has 110 00:08:12,519 --> 00:08:15,920 been actually less than ten percent. So the issue going 111 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,720 next year is whether the enrolle will still pay just 112 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:22,519 ten percent of the premium or whether we will go 113 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:25,879 back to the enrollly paying twenty percent of the premium. 114 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,759 So the underlying subsidies remain very generous, they are in place. 115 00:08:31,079 --> 00:08:34,679 Democrats have confused the issue. They talk about all of 116 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:40,039 these subsidies expiring, when these underlying subsidies remain in place. 117 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,240 So I think for Republicans it is important to talk 118 00:08:45,279 --> 00:08:50,159 about how Obamacare is the problem Obamacare is what led 119 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,440 to escalating premiums and deductibles and led to inferior plan design. 120 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,600 Like most of these plans that are available in the 121 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:01,960 individual market, they do not cover the best hospitals and 122 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,360 doctors in regions. And what we do not want to do. 123 00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:10,960 The worst thing to do is to throw more taxpayer 124 00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:14,840 money at this system. That will lead to higher premiums 125 00:09:14,879 --> 00:09:20,480 and higher healthcare prices and give insurers more power to 126 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:25,440 set high rates for premiums, knowing that the federal taxpayer 127 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,480 is the one who is on the hook for the 128 00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:32,320 premium increase. Rather than doing that, we need to embrace 129 00:09:32,639 --> 00:09:37,879 market principles, expand consumer options and choice, and inject more 130 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,240 competition into the market. So that's why it's vital that 131 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,799 you know, Republicans and conservatives hold the line here and 132 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,840 defeat an expansion of these uh these what we're supposed 133 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,120 to be temporary COVID subsidy boosts, so that we can 134 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:01,639 actually have altern natives that move us in the direction 135 00:10:02,039 --> 00:10:04,360 of a freeer market healthcare system. 136 00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:07,919 Speaker 1: That's a good point. Do you think most Americans, middle 137 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:14,519 class Americans understand how inherently unfair this is. Wouldn't it 138 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,399 be nice I can tell you this is a middle 139 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,720 class American. It would be very nice if my share 140 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,559 of my healthcare insurance cost just ten percent, that would 141 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,879 be wonderful. That's not the reality for a lot of hardworking, 142 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:36,000 tax paying Americans. Not only are they paying more for 143 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,080 their health insurance, much more than the people who are 144 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,679 using Obamacare, they are paying for those people to use 145 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Obamacare in a greater and greater share all the time. 146 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: So that is an excellent point and it is one 147 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,919 that we are really starting to make. We did a 148 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:03,919 policy brief last month that looked at the differential in 149 00:11:04,919 --> 00:11:10,799 employer sponsor insurance and this Obamacare coverage in the exchanges. 150 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:14,960 So there's seven times more people that get coverage through 151 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,440 either their employer or an employer of someone in their 152 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,159 family than get covered in the individual market. So, in 153 00:11:23,159 --> 00:11:26,799 the individual market, we just said eighty to ninety percent 154 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,080 of that premium is paid by the federal taxpayer. In 155 00:11:30,159 --> 00:11:34,759 the employer market, one hundred percent of the premium is 156 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:40,000 paid by the employee. Now, there's often this misconception that 157 00:11:40,039 --> 00:11:43,600 the employer is paying a large portion of the premium, 158 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:46,919 and we use the term employer share of the premium, 159 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,600 but the employer share of the premium just represents a 160 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,240 worker's compensation that is in the form of health benefits. 161 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,159 If they didn't get the health benefit, they would have 162 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,679 higher weight. So the worker is paying the full cost 163 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,960 of their health insurance. Individuals on the exchanges are paying 164 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,360 ten to twenty percent of the cost. What that means 165 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,360 is that if you take an individual of the same income, 166 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,559 they get much more benefit now if their employer does 167 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,399 not offer them health insurance because they have access to 168 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,799 these very large subsidies on the exchanges. So you point 169 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:33,600 out that it's patently unfair to people with employer coverage 170 00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:37,000 because they are paying for their employer coverage and they 171 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,279 are financing the subsidies. It also leads to a situation 172 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,200 for employers where they have incentives to drop coverage. So 173 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:49,799 Obamacare has an employer mandate. It's a tax penalty on 174 00:12:49,879 --> 00:12:53,639 employers that don't offer health insurance, but it's only for 175 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360 employers that have fifty or more workers. What we have 176 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:02,840 seen is small employers dropping coverage and mass since twenty ten, 177 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,080 and dropping that has accelerated because of these Biden COVID 178 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,120 bonuses to the point where now only one out of 179 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:17,039 three employers. Small employers offer health coverage to their workers, 180 00:13:17,159 --> 00:13:21,039 and that means worst coverage in the individual market. It 181 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:26,080 also means escalating costs for taxpayers because of the growing 182 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:27,759 cost of Obamacare plants. 183 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: The Treasury just made a huge announcement regarding illegal immigrants. 184 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:38,080 The Watch doot own Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski 185 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,960 every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 186 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,519 the economy and how it affects your wallet. The Treasury 187 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,559 says illegal immigrants will be removed from the financial system completely. 188 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,440 If you can't get a job here and you can't 189 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,600 get benefits, you're not going to come. This should have 190 00:13:51,639 --> 00:13:54,279 been done years ago. Whether it's happening in DC or 191 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,240 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 192 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: Be informed. 193 00:13:56,919 --> 00:13:59,039 Speaker 3: Check out the watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 194 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,120 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 195 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,519 Speaker 1: Do you think that might have something to do with 196 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,159 this inflation that we're all concerned about? You know, obviously, 197 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,919 I mean you hit the nail on the head, you know. 198 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,080 The COVID era was the massive expansion of big government 199 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:27,320 and those decisions by the former president, or at least 200 00:14:27,399 --> 00:14:32,000 is auto pen and the Democrats who controlled Congress at 201 00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:37,240 the time, really did a number on the cost of things. 202 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:44,559 Healthcare is a big, big part of that. What's the 203 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,320 inflation cost here that we have borne over the last several. 204 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: Years another good question. The inflationary elements of these subsidies 205 00:14:55,639 --> 00:14:59,440 has been significant. It's actually one of the most inflationary 206 00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:03,360 parts of the American Rescue Plan Act, which President Obama 207 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:06,120 or President Biden signed in twenty twenty one, and then 208 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:09,000 the you know, the misnamed Inflation Reduction Act that he 209 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,759 signed in twenty twenty two. Again, the way that these 210 00:15:12,919 --> 00:15:17,080 subsidies work, they capped the and roll share so that 211 00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:20,279 the taxpayers picking up the full cost over time. So 212 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:28,240 that's inflationary. And what the Biden COVID bonuses did is 213 00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:31,120 lift the cap that had existed at four times the 214 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:35,399 poverty line. So original Obamacare had these subsidies, but they 215 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:40,240 didn't feel like upper income households needed the subsidies, so 216 00:15:40,279 --> 00:15:43,320 they put a cap in place for households above four 217 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,399 times the poverty line. The Democrats lifted that cap so 218 00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:50,799 allowed households, making you know, several hundred thousand dollars up 219 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:54,919 to actually over households, making over five hundred thousand dollars 220 00:15:55,039 --> 00:15:59,480 qualified now for subsidies to purchase Obamacare coverage, so that 221 00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:03,720 brought more people into the inflationary system. And what we've 222 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:08,039 seen is a lot of what these government COVID subsidies 223 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:14,279 have done is replace private spending with taxpayer spending, which 224 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:19,240 means higher federal deficits, higher debt, higher interest rates, and 225 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,399 higher inflation. So there has been bad sort of macro 226 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:29,399 economic outcomes from the misguided expanded subsidy policy as well. 227 00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:33,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, and those expanded subsidies, we've talked about this before. 228 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:39,360 The message that I hope is finally clear two Americans 229 00:16:39,799 --> 00:16:42,879 over the course of the shutdown is those subsidies cost 230 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,279 hundreds of billions of dollars. That's expanded subsidies to help 231 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:54,200 people supposedly during a pandemic. The pandemic was long over, 232 00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:58,879 and yet they continued that the American people continued to 233 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,080 pay out these subsidies to prop up this this miserable system. 234 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:08,359 And then Democrats said, well, we want to expand these subsidies, 235 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,079 we want to double down, we want to throw bad 236 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:19,480 money after bad and that really is what is what 237 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:25,039 was happening there. What would have happened if Republicans had 238 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:29,880 not held the line on the expansion of these I 239 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,039 should say the continuation of these subsidies, and built into 240 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:35,359 that would be the expansion of these subsidies. 241 00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so a couple of if the subsidies get expanded 242 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,519 or I guess if the expanded subsidies get extended, the 243 00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:52,960 budgetary cost every year of that is estimated to be 244 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,480 at least forty billion dollars. So you're adding forty billion 245 00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:02,079 dollars to the federal debt every year. You are also 246 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,519 exacerbating the incentive that exists for small employers to drop coverage, 247 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:13,519 so you will have continued exodus of people with employer 248 00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:22,279 plans into the exchanges. You will also worsen underlying healthcare 249 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,000 price inflation because if you subsidize insurers and you make 250 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:33,599 individuals less sensitive to the premium growth, that gives insures 251 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,319 more pricing power, and that means escalation of healthcare prices. 252 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:41,680 But I think the most galling thing is that it 253 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,680 would perpetuate massive fraud. 254 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: So the. 255 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: Expanded subsidies made coverage fully subsidized for people claiming income 256 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:57,200 between one and one and fifty percent of the federal 257 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,519 poverty line. And this was the message of my testimony yesterday. 258 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:02,279 And so I'll give you a bit of the backstory. 259 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:06,720 A year and a half ago, I testified before the 260 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:09,920 Texas State Senate and one of the senators asked me 261 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:15,880 about information that he was hearing that there was income 262 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,839 manipulation in order for people to qualify for more subsidies 263 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,480 than they were eligible for. And what I did was, 264 00:19:24,599 --> 00:19:26,960 you know, I explained the incentives and told them, yes, 265 00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:30,359 there are incentives to do that. That's because the subsidies 266 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,319 are advanced directly to the health insurance company. And if 267 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,119 the government advances too much more than the person was 268 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,640 actually entitled to, for the most part, the government just 269 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,799 writes that off. But I went back to my team 270 00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:45,839 and I was like, well, let's quantify this. How many 271 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:50,279 people are enrolled claiming this income versus how many people 272 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,000 actually have this income. And it turns out for this 273 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,440 year twenty twenty five, there are six point four million 274 00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:03,680 more or people that have claimed income in that category 275 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,480 than have income in that category. Now, how could how 276 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,759 could we have that much fraud? The reason is because 277 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:15,599 the insurance companies benefit from every enrollee, right, they get 278 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:20,359 a monthly check sent from the US Treasury directly to 279 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,119 them for the enrollees, and the insurance company will pay 280 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,319 brokers and agents that have enrolled these people a monthly 281 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,759 commission for every month that they're enrolled. So what that 282 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:38,319 did was create large incentives for fraud schemes. And so 283 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,279 you may have see you know, mainly there's there's there's 284 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,880 two types of ways people may have seen these. There 285 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:50,079 were social media like Facebook, TikTok. They had ads that 286 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,279 would advertise cash or free gift cards if people call 287 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,720 the number, and you may also have been driving down 288 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:02,039 the road and seeing free Obamacare plans number associated with that. Well, 289 00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:04,480 people would call that number and they would ask about 290 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,000 their free cash or cash. They would ask about their 291 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:12,480 gift card, and they would provide their information, their name, 292 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,640 their birth date, and their address. And they didn't get 293 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,400 signed up for a gift card, they didn't get a 294 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,119 cash reward. What they got was enrollment in a fully 295 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:30,279 subsidized Obamacare plan. So this happened all over the country. 296 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,079 On some parts of the country it was worse than others. Now, 297 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,319 what would you expect if you enroll a whole bunch 298 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,960 of people in health insurance that thought that they were 299 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,240 signing up for a cash gift card. You would expect 300 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:47,240 a lot of these people enrolled never use their health plan. 301 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:54,000 So the Biden administration failed to release information about people 302 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,720 that we call zero claim enrollies, so people had never 303 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,000 used their health plan. In August, the Trump administration really 304 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:04,000 least disinformation. And what did we find. We found a 305 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:08,319 massive increase in the number of individuals who never used 306 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,799 their health plan. So in twenty twenty one, there were 307 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:14,480 four million people enrolled at some point during the year 308 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:17,680 that never used their health plan. By twenty twenty four, 309 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,839 that was almost twelve million people. Wow, so that is 310 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,720 equal to thirty five percent of all Obamacare enrollees that 311 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,960 year and forty percent of enrollees and fully subsidized plants. 312 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,640 Now it's crazy. And if you look at a normal 313 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,480 private health there are some people that are healthy that 314 00:22:39,559 --> 00:22:43,119 don't go to the doctor during the year. Normally about 315 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,400 fifteen percent of people in a private health plan won't 316 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,279 have any medical claim during a year. So in Obamacare, 317 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:55,359 it's you know, two and a half times that in 318 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,640 twenty twenty four. So what we coined, we coined the 319 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,160 term phantom enrollment. So we think that there are. I mean, 320 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:07,559 I say, we're virtually certain that there are millions and 321 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,559 millions of people signed up in Obamacare plans. Again, the 322 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:14,480 government is sending insurance companies that check every month on 323 00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:17,640 their behalf, who have no idea that they're enrolled, who 324 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:23,759 are either fictional or have other types of coverage. But 325 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:26,759 it is, it's really a national scandal. And I'll say 326 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:31,920 one more thing about this before you have follow up questions. 327 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,039 I mean, the Government Accountability Office, they after Paragon, we 328 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,920 released our research paper, our first research paper on this 329 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000 A year and a half ago. Three committees of Congress 330 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,319 wrote to the Government Accountability Office and asked them to 331 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,680 do an investigation of the problem. Their investigation is ongoing, 332 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:55,799 but they release preliminary findings last week and two major things. 333 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,160 They created twenty four fake applications and they submitted them 334 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,519 to the exchange for enrollment. And I'm talking about some 335 00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:07,799 of these applications had erroneous information, some of them had 336 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:10,559 missing information. You want to know how many of the 337 00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:15,960 twenty four were approved for subsidized coverage. 338 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to say twenty. Given the extent of this. 339 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:27,839 Speaker 2: Higher twenty twenty almost all of them, ninety six percent 340 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,519 of the fake applications got through. Now, if you're approving 341 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:35,279 any fake applications, that's a sign of a problem. Maybe 342 00:24:35,319 --> 00:24:37,200 one you would say one or two or is an 343 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:40,880 error and you attribute to well, that's just normal government. 344 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,640 Government is going to make mistakes. But mistakes aren't the anomaly, 345 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,279 they are the rule. With the eligibility determinations in Obamacare. 346 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,960 So GEO testified the other stunning stat So people that 347 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,839 receive these advanced subsidies, they are required to file tax 348 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,440 returns because you need to reconcile the advanced subsidy that 349 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:05,759 goes to the health insuran with the amount that you 350 00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:11,240 were actually entitled to. One third of all advanced subsidies 351 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,359 were not reconciled for twenty twenty three. So the government 352 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,480 is literally, I mean, we're just sending money out the 353 00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:22,880 door to health insurers that is going directly into their 354 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:29,440 revenue and profits and not translating into any zero healthcare 355 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,720 services received by people enrolled. 356 00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: That is absolutely criminal, absolutely criminal. Our guest today is 357 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,440 Brian blay Is, former Trump advisor Stafford, president of the 358 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,880 Paragon Health Institute. We're talking about it is it's a 359 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,480 national scandal of fraud involved in Obamacare, and a lot 360 00:25:55,519 --> 00:25:58,279 of us saw this coming. Of course. I just think 361 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:05,920 that it is still stunning how much fraud there is 362 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,240 in this system. How culpable are the insurance companies in 363 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:14,079 all of this? And will anybody ever be held to account? 364 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: So the insurance companies, good question. They say, well, we're 365 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,240 not culpable at all. 366 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:20,559 Speaker 1: Right. 367 00:26:20,599 --> 00:26:25,319 Speaker 2: These eligibility determinations are made by the federal government and 368 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,880 they send us individuals and then you know they're enrolled 369 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,640 in a health insurance plan. And I think that is 370 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:38,440 a bunch of hogwash. The insurance companies know that many 371 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,880 of these enrollees for years now. I mean this problem really, 372 00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,039 I mean it started in twenty twenty two, it escalated 373 00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:50,279 in twenty twenty three, and it probably reached its pinnacle 374 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,519 in twenty twenty four. It's still uncertain exactly what's going 375 00:26:54,559 --> 00:27:00,640 on in twenty twenty five. Hopefully it's been minished to 376 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,279 some degree. But the insurance companies, they know that they 377 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:06,880 have massive numbers of minrolies that don't use any medical care, 378 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,680 and they know that they're getting They know when people 379 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,119 get enrolled from brokers, and if they see like individuals 380 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,680 getting enrolled from brokers that is like several times more 381 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,920 than what you get from a normal productivity from a broker. 382 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,920 I mean that is that should raise alarm bells. But 383 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,440 you know, if it did, then insurers have just ignored it, 384 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,759 and they have decided that it's very profitable for them 385 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,119 to just receive all of this money from the federal government, 386 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,920 and they would just rely on the fact that they 387 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,759 weren't the ones doing the eligibility determinations. But I think 388 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,480 they are culpable for this. They share a large part 389 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:55,720 of the blame. And I think that insurers should have 390 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:59,160 financial liability and the government should impose penalties on them 391 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:04,680 because this fraud is of such a magnitude that the 392 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,240 taxpayer should not be the one who bears the full 393 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:16,240 brunt of the cost. And insurers could have shut this down. 394 00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:20,440 They could have stopped on sending commissions to brokers where 395 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,799 they were highly suspicious that these applications that they were 396 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:26,279 receiving were fake and fraudulent, and they did not. 397 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, how much have members of 398 00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:37,440 Congress Bennett benefited from this fraudulent system? And I asked 399 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,880 that in context of some legislation pending, we'll see where 400 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,440 it goes that will stop you know, equities trading within 401 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:50,480 you know, members of Congress who have obviously they're privy 402 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:56,160 to information on the markets that the average American would 403 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,200 not be because of you know, their positions and their connections. Now, 404 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,359 a lot of these members of Congress, I believe, knew 405 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,680 that this was a huge stink and fraud, and they 406 00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:15,319 knew that it would put money in their pockets accordingly 407 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,839 with their investments and their campaigns. The insurers, of course, 408 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,680 were very happy about this, and so they also ritually 409 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:31,960 rewarded campaigns. Did this make members of Congress even more wealthy? 410 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: Well, I don't have any I haven't done any research, 411 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:39,119 and I don't have any data on that specific question. 412 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,720 But I can tell you that insurance companies have done 413 00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:47,720 an unprecedented amount of lobbying this year, and. 414 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: You know, they. 415 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:57,279 Speaker 2: Realize that unfortunately, because I believe in private health insurance, 416 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:01,640 that's not what we have in the US. I mean, 417 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,480 in an Obamacare market. Now, the insurers are getting eighty 418 00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:08,640 five percent of all of their revenue from the federal government. 419 00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:14,119 So their you know, their motive vation is not to 420 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:19,119 design plans that best meet the needs of individual consumers. 421 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:25,759 In the country. It's to appeal to the federal lawmakers 422 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:31,720 and lobby for additional federal subsidies and cash. And it 423 00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:36,799 is a terrible structure that we have where the incentives 424 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:43,079 for insurers are not to provide value for patients and consumers, 425 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:49,920 but to just appeal to members of Congress to maximize 426 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,440 the amount of money that they get from the from 427 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,920 the federal treasury. And I can tell you that the Democrats, 428 00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:00,359 I mean a lot of their rhetoric is very anti 429 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:04,079 insurer and they talk about, you know, Medicare for all 430 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,400 and the evil of private health insurance companies. But their 431 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:13,279 policy agenda is about just sending more money to health insurances. 432 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,440 And look of what they've they've proposed to vote on. 433 00:31:16,759 --> 00:31:21,079 They're just doing a clean extension of these subsidies. There's 434 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:24,880 not a single reform, there's not any proposals to address 435 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,319 any of the fraud or any of the abuse. It's 436 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,599 just to continue pouring additional taxpayer money on this already 437 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,680 over subsidized structure. 438 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's curious, where's Luigi Mengioni and all of this, 439 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:48,880 you know, the killer of the United Healthcare CEO. The 440 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,359 tragic as it is, his trial going on, of course, 441 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,200 and you know, he was seen by some on the 442 00:31:54,279 --> 00:31:56,680 left as a cult hero, you know, for taking on 443 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,400 the insurance. But of course he's accused of killing a 444 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,400 man in cold blood, but they, you know, an assassination 445 00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:06,799 culture on the left, they don't care much about that. 446 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,319 But it is interesting that you say that because Democrats 447 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:12,839 are propping up the thing that you know, he was 448 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,640 railing against, the thing that he allegedly committed violence over. 449 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,279 So I think it is rich and I mean that 450 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,640 in multiple different ways that the Democrats are telling you 451 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,119 they're fighting for the average America who's paying so much 452 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,279 in health care cost when they are absolutely benefiting from 453 00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:39,359 this destructive system. But I want to Democrats certainly are 454 00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:43,279 the issue and the problem. We've seen that, But I 455 00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:48,279 don't want to let you know, Republicans off the hook. 456 00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:51,359 Republicans who have talked about for years, we've got to 457 00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:54,160 get rid of Obamacare, We've got to change this system, 458 00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:59,400 we need to do something else. Very few have really 459 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,519 proposed something else. You have tried to help them. Where 460 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,519 are Republicans in this battle? And that's going to be 461 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:10,240 extremely important obviously as we get into the midterms. 462 00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:17,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, twenty twenty five has been a 463 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:21,000 pretty important year for health policy. And I give Republicans 464 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,039 credit for the Medicaid reforms. And I know we don't 465 00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:26,240 have time to get into this specificlar the Medicaid reforms, 466 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,759 but there were significant reforms to the Medicaid program that 467 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:35,000 were in the Budget Reconciliation Bill that were opposed by 468 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,920 the medical industrial complex. And the hospitals are very politically powerful, 469 00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:43,759 and unfortunately it's one of the it's like one of 470 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:49,119 probably the major problem in healthcare is hospital prices. And 471 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,440 hospital prices since the turn of the century have grown 472 00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:56,839 three times faster than general inflation, and a lot of 473 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,640 the reason is because of bad government policy that limits 474 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,640 choice and competition and scues the market to be more 475 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,320 hospital centric. But there were provisions in the One Big 476 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:17,000 Beautiful Bill that addressed a significant amount of corporate welfare 477 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,800 in the Medicaid program that led to just outrageously high 478 00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:24,159 prices going through insurers, so they got to cut two 479 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:29,840 hospital systems. I would say with the current debate, Republicans 480 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,360 need to get more comfortable with health care policy. It 481 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,119 has never been a strength of the party. And in 482 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:44,519 twenty seventeen, the efforts to reform the Affordable Care Act. 483 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,079 They it wasn't well done. I think there was a 484 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:54,199 large failure in the party. And then the takeaway from 485 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,039 many in the leadership of the party was, well, let's 486 00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:03,320 just ignore healthcare. Let's focus on other things that Republicans like, 487 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:10,360 like cutting taxes, deregulation energy production, and ignore health policy. 488 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,239 And that is just honestly. I founded Paragon Health Institute 489 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,840 because those of us who support free markets, we need 490 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,400 a health policy agenda. We can't retreat from what I 491 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,039 think is the most important domestic policy agenda. It's the 492 00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:31,039 largest part of family budgets. It's the only part of 493 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:33,679 the government budget that is increasing as a share of 494 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,840 the economy outside of interest payments on the debt. And 495 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,719 we need an agenda that is both visionary in terms 496 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:48,559 of where we want to go in maximizing free market principles, 497 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,000 but also how we can win contemporary policy battles that 498 00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:57,599 at least mean we're making marginal steps in the right 499 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:04,079 direction rather than retreating towards more government control. Today, you 500 00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:06,679 know that there's well, there's going to be a vote 501 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,840 in the Senate. The Democrats are focused on expanding Obamacare 502 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,960 subsidies and the proposal that the Senate Republicans are offerings 503 00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,400 has actually some pretty meaningful reforms. It would open up 504 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,960 the lowest cost Obamacare plan to more individuals. It would 505 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:31,320 address a flaw in Obamacare that would lower premiums for 506 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,039 the most common plan, and it would rather than funding 507 00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:41,159 health insurance companies, it would take some funding and send 508 00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:46,880 it to individual patients as hsas. Now. I think there's 509 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:50,760 could be improvements in this legislation, and I've written about 510 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,079 ways that it could be improved, but at least it 511 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:55,960 is a proposal that is moving us in the right 512 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,159 direction rather than towards more government. 513 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: It is the issue, I mean really, and it's all 514 00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:06,880 captured under affordability. And look at look at what is 515 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,360 look at what is happening in areas of this country. 516 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,000 I mean New York City. Uh maybe not surprisingly, but 517 00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:20,079 did elect a socialist for a mayor in Zorandani who 518 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,320 did very well at least politically talking about how expensive 519 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,559 things continue to be. The affordability question. Now he will 520 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:32,079 be a disaster because he's a Marxist, and like we 521 00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:34,840 saw the disaster coming with Obamacare, we can see that 522 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,320 for New York City. But that that shows you. Uh, 523 00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:42,719 It's not just New York City. People are really really 524 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,000 struggling with the affordability question because all of its basic 525 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:55,760 basic economics, all of their gains in their wages and 526 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,920 their salaries, are being swallowed up by the higher call 527 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:08,440 of things, particularly health insurance. So how do Republicans, conservatives 528 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,960 who really want to change the system and make it better, 529 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,199 how do they communicate that to the country, to the 530 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,280 voter in a midterm where if they do not hold 531 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:25,719 the House and perhaps the Senate, any movement for reform 532 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,440 is going to die. 533 00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:33,119 Speaker 2: So I think the way to communicate it is actually 534 00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:39,519 to wrap a traditional free market message in populism. I mean, 535 00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,719 the reason that we have such high health care prices 536 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,880 is because of the nexus and cronyism between big government 537 00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:53,960 and big industry. And I think we need to tie 538 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,239 those together and say the way to get out of 539 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,000 this mess that we are in is to go after 540 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,960 the cronyism and the corruption, and we should. I mean, 541 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:11,960 health insurance companies are not a popular entity now. Like 542 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,800 I said, I support private health insurance and think that 543 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:18,760 health insurance should be able to do a wonderful job 544 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:24,599 of aggregating premiums and then paying off risks and spreading 545 00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:28,079 the risk. That's what insurance does, but contemporary health insurance 546 00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:32,559 is so there's little resemblance to that. But I think 547 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:38,679 to go after the corruption the Minnesota medicaid fraud scheme, 548 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,679 like where they were paying parents so their kids could 549 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,079 be diagnosed with autism so that they could generate more 550 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,599 Medicaid funding to these facilities like that is it is 551 00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:58,360 so horrific that that happens, but that happens all over 552 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,920 the country. It is not just in minnesot It's because 553 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,239 of the terrible underlying incentives within these programs. And I 554 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,920 do think Republicans need to win the message on Obamacare 555 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:18,760 is why health insurance premiums have skyrocketed, and we can't 556 00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:25,559 you know, uh, just debate this one individual issue on 557 00:40:25,639 --> 00:40:29,199 the enhanced subsidies going away. We need to look more 558 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:34,440 holistically at the problems in Obamacare and greater government control 559 00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:42,159 and really I think attack the like I said, the nexus, 560 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,039 but big government and big industry. 561 00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:47,559 Speaker 1: Well, on that final question in our conversation today, do 562 00:40:47,639 --> 00:40:54,679 you think the Minnesota medicaid fraud scandal that is going on, 563 00:40:55,159 --> 00:41:01,840 Tim Governor Tim Wallas is you know, just very awkward 564 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:09,119 defense of himself and others, and the fact that we 565 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,320 have all of these blue state governors who refuse to 566 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,800 open up the books on how they handle this situation 567 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,239 or at least oversaw this situation. Do you think that 568 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:29,480 will ultimately be important to the move for reform? 569 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 2: I do, and I think so. Doctor Oz, who is 570 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,159 the head of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services 571 00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:42,360 and who I think has done an excellent job so far, 572 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,320 has really laid out a reform agenda and has taken 573 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,760 a variety of actions to protect taxpayer dollars and to 574 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,079 preserve these programs for the most vulnerable rather than to 575 00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:59,239 be siphoned off for fraudsters and grifters. They are going 576 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:07,159 to be all over this Minnesota situation, I really, and 577 00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:09,440 I think the Obamacare fraud that we've seen in the 578 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,360 GEO signing up ninety six percent of fictitious applicants, like 579 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,639 we need to go after government healthcare programs. They are 580 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:21,920 not working, they are wasting hundreds of billions of dollars annually. 581 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,239 And take these two very clear examples that I think 582 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,079 will resonate with the American people to make a very 583 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,039 populist compelling case against government corruption. 584 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,119 Speaker 1: Well, at the very least, I think we should be 585 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:38,639 changing the slogan of Obamacare, that is to say, if 586 00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:42,239 you hate your Obamacare, you have to keep your Obamacare. 587 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:49,360 That's basically where the system is today. And it is awful, 588 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,800 it is sad, and the word that keeps coming back 589 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:58,199 to me is criminal. And I hope there is accountability. 590 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,639 Thanks to my guest today, a Brian Blaze, former Trump 591 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,800 Advisor staffer and president of the Paragon Health Institute, you've 592 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,280 been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 593 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,400 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 594 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,480 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 595 00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:18,719 freedom and anxious for the fray. 596 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 2: I heard the fame voice reason, and then it faded away.