WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:09.400 Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:12.880 are you fav It's so like say subscribe and raid 3 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:20.000 it five starck s and me rights on yesterday and 4 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:27.359 listening a watchem always keep its watching and now your 5 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:31.640 hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay, Hey, Bobs, how 6 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:32.159 you doing man? 7 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:34.840 Good good? Gotta good night's sleep last night, or I 8 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.920 should say a good day's sleep todays. Decided to go 9 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.679 to bit to about Ultra five this morning. 10 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.280 But in the trailer, in the trailer, that's right, my friends, 11 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:46.039 all our listeners out there, Bobo is here in my home, 12 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.479 sitting not two feet from me, right now, next to me, 13 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.119 huddled around this microphone doing the podcast. Bobo said he 14 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:55.640 would be here at four o'clock today because we had 15 00:00:55.719 --> 00:01:00.920 a podcast scheduled for five pm, and again overdoing it, 16 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:03.439 just going the extra mile. He shows up at four 17 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:06.000 am at the house, so he wasn't an hour early 18 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.000 for the podcast. He was thirteen hours early for the podcast, 19 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:12.400 which I think more than makes up for every other 20 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.200 time you were late to this podcast. 21 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:16.799 I'm on the plus side. I can show up an 22 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:18.439 hour late for like a couple of weeks. 23 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.560 Yeah, exactly, So like every time you're a half hour late, 24 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:24.040 we just put that thirty minutes into a bucket or something, 25 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:27.000 and then he shows up thirteen hours early for the 26 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.560 next podcast, and that takes away all his debt. So 27 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.040 I think we're even now, Or do I owe you 28 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:34.760 or do you get to be late a few times now? 29 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:37.879 Well? You only it's because we let those guys sleep 30 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.959 in the trailer. Someone stayed one of the cushions on 31 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:44.079 the cop set, so I got to replace all the cushions. 32 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:45.719 It's match, so it's going to cost you a pretty 33 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:46.319 penny for that. 34 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.000 You'll be very surprised that. I really don't think anyone 35 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:51.239 has ever slept in there since you have last time, 36 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.959 So those stains are yours my friend Gerhart there, I 37 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.840 don't think, so I don't know whil it's ever been 38 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.040 to the house. I don't think Ken stayed here, but 39 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:03.040 I don't. I don't think Lyle has I don't remember 40 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.680 Ken being in there, but he was alone, so I 41 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.759 don't know. Anyways, Yeah, that's another anyway. Ye, Bobo's right 42 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.680 here next to me. Rumor is the when Bobo leaves 43 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.960 after a few days or weeks or whenever that happens. 44 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.280 His trailer may not be here as well. So we 45 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.599 will see about that. Because like I don't know Bobo. 46 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.960 I talk to a lot of people about the podcast. 47 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:24.800 You know, they come in the shop, they talk to me. 48 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.400 They always ask, so, is Bobo's trailer still in your barn? 49 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:31.240 They literally always ask that. So I think that the 50 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:34.000 trailers like we should make like maybe big gonna be 51 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:35.879 on shirts with the trailer in it or something. 52 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:36.840 It's a sweet trailer. 53 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.840 It is a sweet trailer. It is a sweet trailer, absolutely, 54 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:44.199 So the end of an era, possibly, we'll see. I'll 55 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:46.479 believe that. I'll believe it when I see it. Honestly, 56 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:47.960 I'll believe it when I don't see it in the 57 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:48.759 bar in the barn. 58 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.560 Yeah close, putting in a pretty sweet Uh have a 59 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:57.960 full casting room now, I guess like you're building back 60 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:58.400 in there. 61 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:00.599 That's right, that's right. We're gonna frame up the inside 62 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.360 of the outbuilding to some degree, have a place for 63 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.759 the cast to go. I have like a little laboratory. 64 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:08.919 I would say laboratory, but laboratory sounds so much cooler. 65 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.080 So the we're gonna go with that. So, yeah, we 66 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.080 will see man, we will see. But anyway, so it's 67 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:16.759 a pleasure to have Bobo in the house, as it 68 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.680 always is, and it's also a pleasure to have today's 69 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:20.680 guest with us. 70 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:22.199 I've bet waiting for this one. 71 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.400 Yeah, it's a little something for everybody to learn a 72 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.759 little bit from, so hopefully learn a lot. Yeah, and 73 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.879 of course, since you're sitting right next to me, Bobo, 74 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:31.639 I think there's gonna be a fun Patreon. It's gonna 75 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:33.479 be a fun member episode that we're going to record 76 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.479 right after this as well. We have a lot to 77 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:37.439 talk about. I've been in the field a lot. There's 78 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:39.120 been a lot of empty days with nothing going on, 79 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:41.879 but a few really fantastic days and hopefully I can 80 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:43.159 take you up the hill and show you those sort 81 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:45.560 of things the next couple of days. Here, listeners, if 82 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.639 you're not a member and you want to be, well, actually, 83 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:50.840 if you're listening, you probably do want to be a member. 84 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:52.919 But what you want to do is you go to 85 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.319 the show that the link in the show notes below here. 86 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.000 Pratt Froyes puts our links next to the episode here. 87 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:00.560 But what you get if you be I'm a member 88 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.960 of Bigfoot and beyond is. You get this episode right 89 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.439 now with zero commercial breaks, because nobody likes commercials. No 90 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.520 one likes being sold stuff. But you also get an 91 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:12.759 extra hour of content every single week of Bobo and 92 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:14.919 I and usually Matt Preuit's right there with us too, 93 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.040 because it's kind of a fun conversation with another voice 94 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.480 added there. So if you are interested, yeah, very well 95 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:24.279 educated voice. Matt, You're a very very well educated person. 96 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.399 So congratulations on that. We appreciate your help, not only 97 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.079 in editing the stupid things Bobo and I say out, 98 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.240 but also the additions. I bet, I bet Matt edits 99 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.240 a lot less of himself. He does us at all. No, 100 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.319 you wouldn't have to. He says it perfect the first time. 101 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:42.079 All right, Well, anyway, you get the gess Man, If 102 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.279 you want to hear more from Matt Pruit and Me 103 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.399 and Bobo here, you can be a member. You can 104 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.160 extra hour of content pretty much every single week. Sometimes 105 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:52.199 it's forty five minutes, but it's usually at least an hour, 106 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.560 sometimes an hour and a half. We kind of we 107 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:56.920 give you everything we can. You also get an occasional 108 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.120 video or cool pictures and all that other stuff that 109 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.519 you can find on the Patreon of our members. So 110 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:05.680 I don't know. It's five bucks a month. It seems 111 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:07.600 pretty cheap to me. I mean, that's a beer without 112 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.800 a tip when you think about it. And if you 113 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.160 pay five bucks a month you get four hours of 114 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:16.360 content plus often pictures and occasional video and no commercials. 115 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.240 Seems worth it to me. I mean, and mind you, 116 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:21.040 I don't listen to any podcasts, so I'm not actually 117 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.439 a member. But Bobo who does listen to a lot 118 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.160 of podcasts. Bobo's actually a member of his own po podcast. 119 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:29.040 Just so you can listen to the final product without 120 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:29.920 a commercial, right. 121 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:31.720 I still listen to the commercials too. 122 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:33.040 Do you listen to the commercials too? 123 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.480 Why to see what they think of me? 124 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.439 The commercials. Yeah, commercials don't think anything of you. 125 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:40.720 Oh that's algorithm? What you say? 126 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.240 Oh that kind of thing? What kind of commercials do 127 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:43.759 you get? 128 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.439 Weird ones? I bet you told me about that. I 129 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:53.000 was like, yeah, these advertisers are think are really strange 130 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.680 to listen to this podcast. I was like, no, it's 131 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:00.879 just you. I'm like that's great. A lot of counseling ones. 132 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.759 Yeah, fantastic. Well, anyway, yeah, if you want to hear 133 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.480 more of this, become a member click that link in 134 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.319 the show notes below, or you can go to Bigfoot 135 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.720 and Beyond podcasts dot com and then hit that membership button. 136 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.199 That'll tell you more than you need to know. All right, 137 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:20.920 I'm pretty excited about the guests today. I met the guest. 138 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.240 I don't know how I got to ask him. I 139 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:23.720 don't even know how long. I've known him for, maybe 140 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.959 six months or more, maybe a year. I have no idea, 141 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:28.240 but I think that we all have a lot to 142 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.079 learn from this gentleman. So, without much else to say, 143 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:32.839 which is rare for me, why don't we bring our 144 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.360 guests on. This is David Zigan. He is a cop, 145 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:38.439 he is an expert in ballistics. He's an expert in 146 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.600 dramatic glyphics, which is directly related to our field. And 147 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:44.680 he also has kind of a fledgling YouTube channel doing 148 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.560 his best to teach the bigfoot community about ways to 149 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.319 gather evidence and just how to do things right frankly, 150 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:54.399 and it's called Bigfoot Forensics on YouTube. So David, thank 151 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.000 you very much for coming on Bigfoot and Beyond with 152 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.879 these nerds here whoa sorry bobs. A lot of don't 153 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:06.199 listen in well, I really appreciate it. So, David, first 154 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:07.600 of all, how long have I known you? 155 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:07.800 What? 156 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:08.600 What six months? A year? 157 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:08.839 Is that? 158 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:09.920 Is that more or less correct? 159 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.199 I think it's somewhere around six months. I think you're 160 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:12.800 right about that. 161 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.600 Time is very elastic in my old age. 162 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.439 You know, I'm feeling that I'm old too. 163 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.560 Now from my side of the fence, David reached out 164 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.759 to me at the very beginning, because I think more 165 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.160 or less I'm paraphrasing. This isn't a direct quote, but 166 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.160 you said, I'm not so sure soundsquatches are real, but 167 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.680 I think they might be, and I'm hoping that you'll 168 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.160 give me something that convinces me. Was that basically the 169 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:37.839 intent when you first reached out to me. 170 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:43.399 I think that was really close. What initially transpired was 171 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:48.079 I was looking for dermatoglyphics and looking for dermal ridges, 172 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.759 anything that I could find that had to do with Bigfoot, 173 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.600 and I had been reaching out to a lot of 174 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.920 people trying to get that information and nobody was really responding. 175 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:00.319 But you responded, and you initially asked me what I 176 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.399 was planning on doing with it, and what were my 177 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:08.319 plans for it? And Basically what happened was you were 178 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:12.720 nice enough to respond, and what I was hoping to 179 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:15.639 do was start doing some real research on the subject. 180 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.040 And I was hoping that along the way something would 181 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:23.040 come across my desk that I couldn't disprove, you know, 182 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:25.199 something that because I can't be out in the field 183 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.079 like you guys, but I am in the lab a lot, 184 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.240 and if I can have something come across my desk 185 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.759 that makes me just go wow, I can't explain this. 186 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.039 That's what I would ultimately love to have, but it's 187 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:38.399 kind of transformed into something else since then. 188 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:41.440 No, Now I got to ask, you're a lab kind 189 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.639 of character. You said just said that you're not out 190 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:45.399 in the field very much. I know you have been, 191 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:46.919 and we'll get to that in a little while. But 192 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.519 what sort of items, what sort of evidence, and what 193 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.600 sort of things in general do you do? You look 194 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.879 at that because your testimony puts people in jail, So 195 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.639 what sort of things do you specialize in and what 196 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.559 did you think you can bring to the bigfoot field. 197 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.200 So originally I start off as a police I started 198 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.559 off as a police officer, just like everyone else. I 199 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.799 spent a long time on the street on the road, 200 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.360 I primarily worked night shifts. I ended up moving into 201 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.240 being a detective, where I ended up being a polygraph 202 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:23.279 examiner for a number of years, but that was just 203 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.320 kind of like alongside my regular detective duties. Then I 204 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:30.919 came to my current agency that I'm at now, and 205 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.600 I moved into what they call it, it's crimes against persons, 206 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:39.360 but it sounds less than what it is. It's major crimes. 207 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:43.240 It's armed robberies, homicides, things like that. And after a 208 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.000 while I got kind of burnt out on that a 209 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.000 little bit, and I was able to move into a 210 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:54.799 position within the CSI unit, and I found my home immediately. 211 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.360 I couldn't believe that they would pay me to study 212 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.679 to do these kinds of things, and now that's all 213 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.759 I do, even in my spare time, so much so 214 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.600 that now I'm creating a channel trying to help teach 215 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:08.360 about it. But during the initial phases, I got to 216 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.519 go to the National Forensic Academy sometimes called the Body 217 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:13.000 Farm in Oakridge, Tennessee. 218 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.879 Oh yeah, yeah, there's some really wonderful videos out of there, 219 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:16.480 I might say. 220 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.679 Yeah, So I got to a ten there and a 221 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.559 little later on, right before COVID. I got to be 222 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:24.639 an adjunct instructor where I got to go up and 223 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:30.960 help teach about fingerprints and fingerprint processing, and I basically 224 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:36.240 have just really embraced the fingerprint and the dermal ridge realm, 225 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:40.639 and I've become an expert witness in my field. I 226 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:45.279 help teach fingerprints, I actually verify fingerprints for a lot 227 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.600 of the surrounding agencies and basically mentor some of them. 228 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:52.840 So I am a certified latent fingerprint examiner, certified crime 229 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:57.639 scene tech along with being trained in shooting, incident reconstruction, 230 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:01.679 and blood state and pattern analysis. I was hoping that 231 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:07.960 after looking at different pieces of evidence online that I 232 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:12.240 could help kind of bring some proper ways to collect that. 233 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:14.840 I mean, it all started when I was looking at 234 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:19.799 Bigfoot impressions and I was looking for those dermal ridges, 235 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.440 looking for the inside of those prints, but I kept 236 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.240 finding out that they were either taken improperly, too far away, 237 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:32.080 no scale. And I started thinking, what if I'm looking 238 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:36.360 at a true life Bigfoot footprint right now? But I 239 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.639 have to just swipe away and keep looking because there's 240 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.000 nothing I can do about that. And then you know 241 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.279 the next step was, well, maybe I could help teach 242 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.200 this and shed some light on how to document this 243 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.279 properly in case somedays somebody actually does do it. 244 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:51.919 Yeah, because you teach cops on a regular basis how 245 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.200 to do their jobs right in your areas of expertise, 246 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.960 why not the Bigfoot community because it is sorely needed. 247 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:01.159 I don't know everything, but not even close, and I'm 248 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.799 always looking for some guidance how to do things properly 249 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:05.759 because we're just kind of in the darken a lot 250 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:06.080 of ways. 251 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:06.240 You know. 252 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.000 We can look online at various websites or buy various books, 253 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.200 but there's nothing like having a teacher or a mentor 254 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:12.840 right there. 255 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:15.320 And you've been kind of that to me since I 256 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:19.000 started this. I know, I've tried to get in touch 257 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.559 with you a couple of times about some frustrations I've had. 258 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.240 You've fought me down. Things move at a different pace 259 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.720 in different worlds, and people have different ideas, and I've 260 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:29.960 been appreciative, of course. 261 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.039 Oh yeah, I'm happy to help, of course. And then 262 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.360 I don't know how many times you tried to contact 263 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:36.559 me before I got back, because I'm always hesitant to 264 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:40.519 give too much too soon, because there's a lot of 265 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.080 people out in the big Foot community that use whatever 266 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.120 they can get for their own agendas and that sort 267 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:46.879 of thing. So I'm very pleased that I took a 268 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.000 chance on you, though, because I think the first one 269 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:51.919 of the first things I did was I gave you 270 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.320 photographs of one of the casts. I don't remember which 271 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.679 one it was, maybe as a handprint from Missouri, maybe 272 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.960 it was something else. Oh no, no, it was the 273 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.279 It was the Corn Creek cast from the Tom Shay 274 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:03.879 collection Corn Creek. 275 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.519 And you did send me the palm I mean or 276 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:08.200 the hand. 277 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:12.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and now and both of those cases 278 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.679 there are some concerns whether those were introduced dramaticallypics or 279 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.840 they were there on the foot or the hand in 280 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:22.240 each case. But can you speak to the difference between 281 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.840 from your from the from your side, you know, from 282 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:31.240 from analyzing photographs and then analyzing the cast itself. Tell 283 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.159 us about the differences between those two when you're presented 284 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.440 with evidence, our photographs enough or do you need the cast? 285 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:38.679 You know where I'm going with this. 286 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:44.720 Yes, So I remember very clearly, especially on the hand one, 287 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:47.320 because you ended up making a cast for that or 288 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:51.039 a reproduction and sending it to me because I initially 289 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.960 worked off the photographs and you kept telling me, I 290 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.799 think there's something that you're not seeing, and you were. 291 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:02.039 You were absolutely right, and I wasn't aware that I 292 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.399 wasn't seeing it properly. And part of it was because 293 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.039 in my world when we do crime scene reconstructions, or 294 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:14.000 my partner at my agency, we BO, we worked with 295 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:17.559 some prosecutors in our county where we helped look at 296 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:21.080 some crime scenes to see if they were documented correctly, 297 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.519 so to say, and we will basically do reconstructions from 298 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:29.080 the photographs and the crime scene reports. So it wasn't 299 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.799 anything new to be working from the photographs. But what 300 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.559 I didn't take into account was being able to hold 301 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:38.120 it and manipulate it in my hands. 302 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:38.360 You know. 303 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.759 I'm used to working with photographs that are showing rooms 304 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.799 where we can see things differently, but being able to 305 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.559 hold that cast change my whole perspective once I got it. 306 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:50.799 Yeah, I guess it jumps from two D to three 307 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:52.840 D when you can hold it, so that's a lot 308 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:53.399 more info. 309 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:57.720 Yeah, And I think if you know, especially with the 310 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:01.240 three D technology that's going on now, that would be 311 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:03.919 beneficial in sending things just to you know, like working 312 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.720 from photographs would be great, and then the three D 313 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.159 model so you could spin it around and kind of 314 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:11.879 just kind of see what you were originally talking about, 315 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.200 would be fantastic as well. That might cut back on 316 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.600 the reproductions of casts and postage. 317 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.720 Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. 318 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:32.960 We'll be right back after these messages. So right now, 319 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.919 since we have you know, a number of years listening 320 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.200 to us, and I'd say probably the majority of them 321 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.000 are considered themselves bigfooters or researchers in some sort of way, 322 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:42.519 what are some of the things that we can look 323 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:46.480 to do as far as dramatic glyphics go on casts? 324 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.879 Are there any things that, like, say, for example, there's 325 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.120 a footprint in the ground in the mud, and it's 326 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.519 a fine mud, maybe some silts, and there's a chance 327 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.080 that we can maybe record some dramatic glyphics. What would 328 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.120 you recommend we do, as feel researchers looking at a 329 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:06.639 beautiful cast in the ground to preserve those dramaticglyphics in 330 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.519 any way possible. And I'm thinking, like I'm looking at 331 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.320 the cast, I haven't even thought about casting it yet. 332 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:14.960 What are the steps that we should do to make 333 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.080 sure we don't lose any information out of that footprint 334 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.639 if it has a possibility of dramaticlypics. 335 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:25.480 Okay, so I recently I posted a different Someone recently 336 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.799 told me that it was kind of funny. They asked 337 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.240 me if I had ever photographed something in the ground 338 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.399 that was hard to see, and of answers, of course, 339 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.279 is yes. So I see a lot of people trying 340 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:42.320 to do the right thing and they're taking you know, 341 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.399 putting the camera parallel to the ground. You know, that's 342 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.440 one of the first steps is we don't need any 343 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.200 side shots with the camera, but we definitely need the scale, 344 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.919 and we need the pictures of the footprint, and those 345 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.399 those first close up photographs the footprint they need to 346 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:06.240 fill up the entire frame of the photograph. And you know, 347 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.759 people are telling me, you know, well, we don't have 348 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.480 a DSLR camera like you do things like that. But 349 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:13.799 I'm here to tell you. We were kind of playing 350 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:15.680 around the other day and we decided to do a 351 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.799 whole scene using just our phones, and it came out wonderfully. 352 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:24.480 It was absolutely wonderful. So phones nowadays are fantastic, especially 353 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.359 with that three D stuff that you like scan averse 354 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.240 that we've been using as well. But that first picture 355 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.799 looking over the top, that's very important. But I think 356 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:39.319 what people are forgetting is the lighting. If you can 357 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.759 carry some type of flashlight or something like that, what 358 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.599 we do is if the sun is too much in 359 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.559 the way, we'll actually put a umbrella to create some shade, 360 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.920 and we'll either use the flash from the camera detached 361 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:59.319 from the camera itself to create side lighting to make 362 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.359 the shadows than those ridges, or we'll use flashlights. My 363 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.359 favorite is some of these mechanic work lights that you 364 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:09.640 can unfold and it has like a long line of 365 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:13.519 LEDs and we just set it down on the side 366 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.519 of the footprint and it shoots lights straight across it. 367 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.599 Anything that's sticking up from the ground. It creates a shadow. 368 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.599 And then we do that in multiple shots moving around 369 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.319 the print, because if you create a shadow, you could 370 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.119 accidentally cast a shadow over something important, so we do 371 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.400 it in multiple shots. 372 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.640 So move the light from photograph to photograph. 373 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.720 In the same photograph, like when we have the camera 374 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.799 over that one impression, we'll move the light from the 375 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.759 side to the front, to the other side to the back, 376 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:49.480 so we're getting different angles of those shadows, right. 377 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.720 Then take a picture for each position of the light. 378 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.480 For each position, each position, And you have to do 379 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:57.079 that because if you do it and you get too 380 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.680 long of a shadow, it could cover something up and 381 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.559 you don't want that. So and I think the other 382 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.039 thing is on the ones that you suspect that may 383 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.640 have dermal ridges, we'll take it a step further and 384 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:17.319 we'll actually grid that footprint off into sections, and we'll 385 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.440 make sure the scale is in each photograph, but we'll 386 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.559 actually zoom in and get even closer to the point 387 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:25.240 where you may not even be able to tell it's 388 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.759 a footprint. But I just have like the upper corner 389 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.559 of the footprint, and we'll do that all the way around, 390 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.799 you know, because a further way the camera is. You know, 391 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.799 people want to zoom and look at the details, but 392 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.640 if you zoom in and you're too far away, all 393 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.599 that does is pixel it. So we have to just 394 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.240 keep getting closer and closer and closer. And we've even 395 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.599 done fingerprints with our phones. So I tried to tell 396 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:48.599 an examiner the other day and they were like, my 397 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:50.880 camera's not working, and they're very upset, and I was 398 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.720 like here, here's your phone, let me show you. And 399 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:54.920 we did the whole thing with the side lighting and 400 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:55.759 it was amazing. 401 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:58.319