Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys
Speaker 1: are you fav It's so like say subscribe and raid
Speaker 1: it five starck s and me rights on yesterday and
Speaker 1: listening a watchem always keep its watching and now your
Speaker 1: hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay, Hey, Bobs, how
Speaker 1: you doing man?
Speaker 2: Good good? Gotta good night's sleep last night, or I
Speaker 2: should say a good day's sleep todays. Decided to go
Speaker 2: to bit to about Ultra five this morning.
Speaker 1: But in the trailer, in the trailer, that's right, my friends,
Speaker 1: all our listeners out there, Bobo is here in my home,
Speaker 1: sitting not two feet from me, right now, next to me,
Speaker 1: huddled around this microphone doing the podcast. Bobo said he
Speaker 1: would be here at four o'clock today because we had
Speaker 1: a podcast scheduled for five pm, and again overdoing it,
Speaker 1: just going the extra mile. He shows up at four
Speaker 1: am at the house, so he wasn't an hour early
Speaker 1: for the podcast. He was thirteen hours early for the podcast,
Speaker 1: which I think more than makes up for every other
Speaker 1: time you were late to this podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm on the plus side. I can show up an
Speaker 2: hour late for like a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So like every time you're a half hour late,
Speaker 1: we just put that thirty minutes into a bucket or something,
Speaker 1: and then he shows up thirteen hours early for the
Speaker 1: next podcast, and that takes away all his debt. So
Speaker 1: I think we're even now, Or do I owe you
Speaker 1: or do you get to be late a few times now?
Speaker 2: Well? You only it's because we let those guys sleep
Speaker 2: in the trailer. Someone stayed one of the cushions on
Speaker 2: the cop set, so I got to replace all the cushions.
Speaker 2: It's match, so it's going to cost you a pretty
Speaker 2: penny for that.
Speaker 1: You'll be very surprised that. I really don't think anyone
Speaker 1: has ever slept in there since you have last time,
Speaker 1: So those stains are yours my friend Gerhart there, I
Speaker 1: don't think, so I don't know whil it's ever been
Speaker 1: to the house. I don't think Ken stayed here, but
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think Lyle has I don't remember
Speaker 1: Ken being in there, but he was alone, so I
Speaker 1: don't know. Anyways, Yeah, that's another anyway. Ye, Bobo's right
Speaker 1: here next to me. Rumor is the when Bobo leaves
Speaker 1: after a few days or weeks or whenever that happens.
Speaker 1: His trailer may not be here as well. So we
Speaker 1: will see about that. Because like I don't know Bobo.
Speaker 1: I talk to a lot of people about the podcast.
Speaker 1: You know, they come in the shop, they talk to me.
Speaker 1: They always ask, so, is Bobo's trailer still in your barn?
Speaker 1: They literally always ask that. So I think that the
Speaker 1: trailers like we should make like maybe big gonna be
Speaker 1: on shirts with the trailer in it or something.
Speaker 2: It's a sweet trailer.
Speaker 1: It is a sweet trailer. It is a sweet trailer, absolutely,
Speaker 1: So the end of an era, possibly, we'll see. I'll
Speaker 1: believe that. I'll believe it when I see it. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'll believe it when I don't see it in the
Speaker 1: bar in the barn.
Speaker 2: Yeah close, putting in a pretty sweet Uh have a
Speaker 2: full casting room now, I guess like you're building back
Speaker 2: in there.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. We're gonna frame up the inside
Speaker 1: of the outbuilding to some degree, have a place for
Speaker 1: the cast to go. I have like a little laboratory.
Speaker 1: I would say laboratory, but laboratory sounds so much cooler.
Speaker 1: So the we're gonna go with that. So, yeah, we
Speaker 1: will see man, we will see. But anyway, so it's
Speaker 1: a pleasure to have Bobo in the house, as it
Speaker 1: always is, and it's also a pleasure to have today's
Speaker 1: guest with us.
Speaker 2: I've bet waiting for this one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little something for everybody to learn a
Speaker 1: little bit from, so hopefully learn a lot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: of course, since you're sitting right next to me, Bobo,
Speaker 1: I think there's gonna be a fun Patreon. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be a fun member episode that we're going to record
Speaker 1: right after this as well. We have a lot to
Speaker 1: talk about. I've been in the field a lot. There's
Speaker 1: been a lot of empty days with nothing going on,
Speaker 1: but a few really fantastic days and hopefully I can
Speaker 1: take you up the hill and show you those sort
Speaker 1: of things the next couple of days. Here, listeners, if
Speaker 1: you're not a member and you want to be, well, actually,
Speaker 1: if you're listening, you probably do want to be a member.
Speaker 1: But what you want to do is you go to
Speaker 1: the show that the link in the show notes below here.
Speaker 1: Pratt Froyes puts our links next to the episode here.
Speaker 1: But what you get if you be I'm a member
Speaker 1: of Bigfoot and beyond is. You get this episode right
Speaker 1: now with zero commercial breaks, because nobody likes commercials. No
Speaker 1: one likes being sold stuff. But you also get an
Speaker 1: extra hour of content every single week of Bobo and
Speaker 1: I and usually Matt Preuit's right there with us too,
Speaker 1: because it's kind of a fun conversation with another voice
Speaker 1: added there. So if you are interested, yeah, very well
Speaker 1: educated voice. Matt, You're a very very well educated person.
Speaker 1: So congratulations on that. We appreciate your help, not only
Speaker 1: in editing the stupid things Bobo and I say out,
Speaker 1: but also the additions. I bet, I bet Matt edits
Speaker 1: a lot less of himself. He does us at all. No,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have to. He says it perfect the first time.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, anyway, you get the gess Man, If
Speaker 1: you want to hear more from Matt Pruit and Me
Speaker 1: and Bobo here, you can be a member. You can
Speaker 1: extra hour of content pretty much every single week. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's forty five minutes, but it's usually at least an hour,
Speaker 1: sometimes an hour and a half. We kind of we
Speaker 1: give you everything we can. You also get an occasional
Speaker 1: video or cool pictures and all that other stuff that
Speaker 1: you can find on the Patreon of our members. So
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's five bucks a month. It seems
Speaker 1: pretty cheap to me. I mean, that's a beer without
Speaker 1: a tip when you think about it. And if you
Speaker 1: pay five bucks a month you get four hours of
Speaker 1: content plus often pictures and occasional video and no commercials.
Speaker 1: Seems worth it to me. I mean, and mind you,
Speaker 1: I don't listen to any podcasts, so I'm not actually
Speaker 1: a member. But Bobo who does listen to a lot
Speaker 1: of podcasts. Bobo's actually a member of his own po podcast.
Speaker 1: Just so you can listen to the final product without
Speaker 1: a commercial, right.
Speaker 2: I still listen to the commercials too.
Speaker 1: Do you listen to the commercials too?
Speaker 2: Why to see what they think of me?
Speaker 1: The commercials. Yeah, commercials don't think anything of you.
Speaker 2: Oh that's algorithm? What you say?
Speaker 1: Oh that kind of thing? What kind of commercials do
Speaker 1: you get?
Speaker 2: Weird ones? I bet you told me about that. I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, these advertisers are think are really strange
Speaker 2: to listen to this podcast. I was like, no, it's
Speaker 2: just you. I'm like that's great. A lot of counseling ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic. Well, anyway, yeah, if you want to hear
Speaker 1: more of this, become a member click that link in
Speaker 1: the show notes below, or you can go to Bigfoot
Speaker 1: and Beyond podcasts dot com and then hit that membership button.
Speaker 1: That'll tell you more than you need to know. All right,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited about the guests today. I met the guest.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I got to ask him. I
Speaker 1: don't even know how long. I've known him for, maybe
Speaker 1: six months or more, maybe a year. I have no idea,
Speaker 1: but I think that we all have a lot to
Speaker 1: learn from this gentleman. So, without much else to say,
Speaker 1: which is rare for me, why don't we bring our
Speaker 1: guests on. This is David Zigan. He is a cop,
Speaker 1: he is an expert in ballistics. He's an expert in
Speaker 1: dramatic glyphics, which is directly related to our field. And
Speaker 1: he also has kind of a fledgling YouTube channel doing
Speaker 1: his best to teach the bigfoot community about ways to
Speaker 1: gather evidence and just how to do things right frankly,
Speaker 1: and it's called Bigfoot Forensics on YouTube. So David, thank
Speaker 1: you very much for coming on Bigfoot and Beyond with
Speaker 1: these nerds here whoa sorry bobs. A lot of don't
Speaker 1: listen in well, I really appreciate it. So, David, first
Speaker 1: of all, how long have I known you?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: What six months? A year?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that more or less correct?
Speaker 3: I think it's somewhere around six months. I think you're
Speaker 3: right about that.
Speaker 1: Time is very elastic in my old age.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm feeling that I'm old too.
Speaker 1: Now from my side of the fence, David reached out
Speaker 1: to me at the very beginning, because I think more
Speaker 1: or less I'm paraphrasing. This isn't a direct quote, but
Speaker 1: you said, I'm not so sure soundsquatches are real, but
Speaker 1: I think they might be, and I'm hoping that you'll
Speaker 1: give me something that convinces me. Was that basically the
Speaker 1: intent when you first reached out to me.
Speaker 3: I think that was really close. What initially transpired was
Speaker 3: I was looking for dermatoglyphics and looking for dermal ridges,
Speaker 3: anything that I could find that had to do with Bigfoot,
Speaker 3: and I had been reaching out to a lot of
Speaker 3: people trying to get that information and nobody was really responding.
Speaker 3: But you responded, and you initially asked me what I
Speaker 3: was planning on doing with it, and what were my
Speaker 3: plans for it? And Basically what happened was you were
Speaker 3: nice enough to respond, and what I was hoping to
Speaker 3: do was start doing some real research on the subject.
Speaker 3: And I was hoping that along the way something would
Speaker 3: come across my desk that I couldn't disprove, you know,
Speaker 3: something that because I can't be out in the field
Speaker 3: like you guys, but I am in the lab a lot,
Speaker 3: and if I can have something come across my desk
Speaker 3: that makes me just go wow, I can't explain this.
Speaker 3: That's what I would ultimately love to have, but it's
Speaker 3: kind of transformed into something else since then.
Speaker 1: No, Now I got to ask, you're a lab kind
Speaker 1: of character. You said just said that you're not out
Speaker 1: in the field very much. I know you have been,
Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in a little while. But
Speaker 1: what sort of items, what sort of evidence, and what
Speaker 1: sort of things in general do you do? You look
Speaker 1: at that because your testimony puts people in jail, So
Speaker 1: what sort of things do you specialize in and what
Speaker 1: did you think you can bring to the bigfoot field.
Speaker 3: So originally I start off as a police I started
Speaker 3: off as a police officer, just like everyone else. I
Speaker 3: spent a long time on the street on the road,
Speaker 3: I primarily worked night shifts. I ended up moving into
Speaker 3: being a detective, where I ended up being a polygraph
Speaker 3: examiner for a number of years, but that was just
Speaker 3: kind of like alongside my regular detective duties. Then I
Speaker 3: came to my current agency that I'm at now, and
Speaker 3: I moved into what they call it, it's crimes against persons,
Speaker 3: but it sounds less than what it is. It's major crimes.
Speaker 3: It's armed robberies, homicides, things like that. And after a
Speaker 3: while I got kind of burnt out on that a
Speaker 3: little bit, and I was able to move into a
Speaker 3: position within the CSI unit, and I found my home immediately.
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe that they would pay me to study
Speaker 3: to do these kinds of things, and now that's all
Speaker 3: I do, even in my spare time, so much so
Speaker 3: that now I'm creating a channel trying to help teach
Speaker 3: about it. But during the initial phases, I got to
Speaker 3: go to the National Forensic Academy sometimes called the Body
Speaker 3: Farm in Oakridge, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, there's some really wonderful videos out of there,
Speaker 1: I might say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I got to a ten there and a
Speaker 3: little later on, right before COVID. I got to be
Speaker 3: an adjunct instructor where I got to go up and
Speaker 3: help teach about fingerprints and fingerprint processing, and I basically
Speaker 3: have just really embraced the fingerprint and the dermal ridge realm,
Speaker 3: and I've become an expert witness in my field. I
Speaker 3: help teach fingerprints, I actually verify fingerprints for a lot
Speaker 3: of the surrounding agencies and basically mentor some of them.
Speaker 3: So I am a certified latent fingerprint examiner, certified crime
Speaker 3: scene tech along with being trained in shooting, incident reconstruction,
Speaker 3: and blood state and pattern analysis. I was hoping that
Speaker 3: after looking at different pieces of evidence online that I
Speaker 3: could help kind of bring some proper ways to collect that.
Speaker 3: I mean, it all started when I was looking at
Speaker 3: Bigfoot impressions and I was looking for those dermal ridges,
Speaker 3: looking for the inside of those prints, but I kept
Speaker 3: finding out that they were either taken improperly, too far away,
Speaker 3: no scale. And I started thinking, what if I'm looking
Speaker 3: at a true life Bigfoot footprint right now? But I
Speaker 3: have to just swipe away and keep looking because there's
Speaker 3: nothing I can do about that. And then you know
Speaker 3: the next step was, well, maybe I could help teach
Speaker 3: this and shed some light on how to document this
Speaker 3: properly in case somedays somebody actually does do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you teach cops on a regular basis how
Speaker 1: to do their jobs right in your areas of expertise,
Speaker 1: why not the Bigfoot community because it is sorely needed.
Speaker 1: I don't know everything, but not even close, and I'm
Speaker 1: always looking for some guidance how to do things properly
Speaker 1: because we're just kind of in the darken a lot
Speaker 1: of ways.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: We can look online at various websites or buy various books,
Speaker 1: but there's nothing like having a teacher or a mentor
Speaker 1: right there.
Speaker 3: And you've been kind of that to me since I
Speaker 3: started this. I know, I've tried to get in touch
Speaker 3: with you a couple of times about some frustrations I've had.
Speaker 3: You've fought me down. Things move at a different pace
Speaker 3: in different worlds, and people have different ideas, and I've
Speaker 3: been appreciative, of course.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm happy to help, of course. And then
Speaker 1: I don't know how many times you tried to contact
Speaker 1: me before I got back, because I'm always hesitant to
Speaker 1: give too much too soon, because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people out in the big Foot community that use whatever
Speaker 1: they can get for their own agendas and that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. So I'm very pleased that I took a
Speaker 1: chance on you, though, because I think the first one
Speaker 1: of the first things I did was I gave you
Speaker 1: photographs of one of the casts. I don't remember which
Speaker 1: one it was, maybe as a handprint from Missouri, maybe
Speaker 1: it was something else. Oh no, no, it was the
Speaker 1: It was the Corn Creek cast from the Tom Shay
Speaker 1: collection Corn Creek.
Speaker 3: And you did send me the palm I mean or
Speaker 3: the hand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and now and both of those cases
Speaker 1: there are some concerns whether those were introduced dramaticallypics or
Speaker 1: they were there on the foot or the hand in
Speaker 1: each case. But can you speak to the difference between
Speaker 1: from your from the from your side, you know, from
Speaker 1: from analyzing photographs and then analyzing the cast itself. Tell
Speaker 1: us about the differences between those two when you're presented
Speaker 1: with evidence, our photographs enough or do you need the cast?
Speaker 1: You know where I'm going with this.
Speaker 3: Yes, So I remember very clearly, especially on the hand one,
Speaker 3: because you ended up making a cast for that or
Speaker 3: a reproduction and sending it to me because I initially
Speaker 3: worked off the photographs and you kept telling me, I
Speaker 3: think there's something that you're not seeing, and you were.
Speaker 3: You were absolutely right, and I wasn't aware that I
Speaker 3: wasn't seeing it properly. And part of it was because
Speaker 3: in my world when we do crime scene reconstructions, or
Speaker 3: my partner at my agency, we BO, we worked with
Speaker 3: some prosecutors in our county where we helped look at
Speaker 3: some crime scenes to see if they were documented correctly,
Speaker 3: so to say, and we will basically do reconstructions from
Speaker 3: the photographs and the crime scene reports. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: anything new to be working from the photographs. But what
Speaker 3: I didn't take into account was being able to hold
Speaker 3: it and manipulate it in my hands.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I'm used to working with photographs that are showing rooms
Speaker 3: where we can see things differently, but being able to
Speaker 3: hold that cast change my whole perspective once I got it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it jumps from two D to three
Speaker 2: D when you can hold it, so that's a lot
Speaker 2: more info.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think if you know, especially with the
Speaker 3: three D technology that's going on now, that would be
Speaker 3: beneficial in sending things just to you know, like working
Speaker 3: from photographs would be great, and then the three D
Speaker 3: model so you could spin it around and kind of
Speaker 3: just kind of see what you were originally talking about,
Speaker 3: would be fantastic as well. That might cut back on
Speaker 3: the reproductions of casts and postage.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after these messages. So right now,
Speaker 1: since we have you know, a number of years listening
Speaker 1: to us, and I'd say probably the majority of them
Speaker 1: are considered themselves bigfooters or researchers in some sort of way,
Speaker 1: what are some of the things that we can look
Speaker 1: to do as far as dramatic glyphics go on casts?
Speaker 1: Are there any things that, like, say, for example, there's
Speaker 1: a footprint in the ground in the mud, and it's
Speaker 1: a fine mud, maybe some silts, and there's a chance
Speaker 1: that we can maybe record some dramatic glyphics. What would
Speaker 1: you recommend we do, as feel researchers looking at a
Speaker 1: beautiful cast in the ground to preserve those dramaticglyphics in
Speaker 1: any way possible. And I'm thinking, like I'm looking at
Speaker 1: the cast, I haven't even thought about casting it yet.
Speaker 1: What are the steps that we should do to make
Speaker 1: sure we don't lose any information out of that footprint
Speaker 1: if it has a possibility of dramaticlypics.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I recently I posted a different Someone recently
Speaker 3: told me that it was kind of funny. They asked
Speaker 3: me if I had ever photographed something in the ground
Speaker 3: that was hard to see, and of answers, of course,
Speaker 3: is yes. So I see a lot of people trying
Speaker 3: to do the right thing and they're taking you know,
Speaker 3: putting the camera parallel to the ground. You know, that's
Speaker 3: one of the first steps is we don't need any
Speaker 3: side shots with the camera, but we definitely need the scale,
Speaker 3: and we need the pictures of the footprint, and those
Speaker 3: those first close up photographs the footprint they need to
Speaker 3: fill up the entire frame of the photograph. And you know,
Speaker 3: people are telling me, you know, well, we don't have
Speaker 3: a DSLR camera like you do things like that. But
Speaker 3: I'm here to tell you. We were kind of playing
Speaker 3: around the other day and we decided to do a
Speaker 3: whole scene using just our phones, and it came out wonderfully.
Speaker 3: It was absolutely wonderful. So phones nowadays are fantastic, especially
Speaker 3: with that three D stuff that you like scan averse
Speaker 3: that we've been using as well. But that first picture
Speaker 3: looking over the top, that's very important. But I think
Speaker 3: what people are forgetting is the lighting. If you can
Speaker 3: carry some type of flashlight or something like that, what
Speaker 3: we do is if the sun is too much in
Speaker 3: the way, we'll actually put a umbrella to create some shade,
Speaker 3: and we'll either use the flash from the camera detached
Speaker 3: from the camera itself to create side lighting to make
Speaker 3: the shadows than those ridges, or we'll use flashlights. My
Speaker 3: favorite is some of these mechanic work lights that you
Speaker 3: can unfold and it has like a long line of
Speaker 3: LEDs and we just set it down on the side
Speaker 3: of the footprint and it shoots lights straight across it.
Speaker 3: Anything that's sticking up from the ground. It creates a shadow.
Speaker 3: And then we do that in multiple shots moving around
Speaker 3: the print, because if you create a shadow, you could
Speaker 3: accidentally cast a shadow over something important, so we do
Speaker 3: it in multiple shots.
Speaker 1: So move the light from photograph to photograph.
Speaker 3: In the same photograph, like when we have the camera
Speaker 3: over that one impression, we'll move the light from the
Speaker 3: side to the front, to the other side to the back,
Speaker 3: so we're getting different angles of those shadows, right.
Speaker 1: Then take a picture for each position of the light.
Speaker 3: For each position, each position, And you have to do
Speaker 3: that because if you do it and you get too
Speaker 3: long of a shadow, it could cover something up and
Speaker 3: you don't want that. So and I think the other
Speaker 3: thing is on the ones that you suspect that may
Speaker 3: have dermal ridges, we'll take it a step further and
Speaker 3: we'll actually grid that footprint off into sections, and we'll
Speaker 3: make sure the scale is in each photograph, but we'll
Speaker 3: actually zoom in and get even closer to the point
Speaker 3: where you may not even be able to tell it's
Speaker 3: a footprint. But I just have like the upper corner
Speaker 3: of the footprint, and we'll do that all the way around,
Speaker 3: you know, because a further way the camera is. You know,
Speaker 3: people want to zoom and look at the details, but
Speaker 3: if you zoom in and you're too far away, all
Speaker 3: that does is pixel it. So we have to just
Speaker 3: keep getting closer and closer and closer. And we've even
Speaker 3: done fingerprints with our phones. So I tried to tell
Speaker 3: an examiner the other day and they were like, my
Speaker 3: camera's not working, and they're very upset, and I was
Speaker 3: like here, here's your phone, let me show you. And
Speaker 3: we did the whole thing with the side lighting and
Speaker 3: it was amazing.
Speaker 1: What would be the next step I want to take
Speaker 1: this from I'm looking at a print in the ground
Speaker 1: to I have it in somebody's hand. What would be
Speaker 1: the next step?
Speaker 3: After we've photographed it thoroughly, if it lends itself to
Speaker 3: you know, it has a lot of details in it,
Speaker 3: We're now going to start trying to use some of
Speaker 3: our three D scanning technology. And honestly, that's also going
Speaker 3: to depend on the severity of the case. Right we
Speaker 3: don't have the time to do it for everything, but
Speaker 3: if we can, we're playing with it right now, trying
Speaker 3: to incorporate it. But the next step is casting, just
Speaker 3: like everybody else. And I'm not saying photographs take the
Speaker 3: place of casting. Basically they go hand in hand. Some
Speaker 3: of the photographs will get stuff the cast doesn't. Sometimes
Speaker 3: the cast get stuff the photographs doesn't don't, and you
Speaker 3: have to use both. But once you have the cast. Honestly,
Speaker 3: once we have the cast in our hands, we're going
Speaker 3: to send it to a footwear examiner. We're not actually
Speaker 3: going to clean it. We're gonna send it dirt and
Speaker 3: all to the examiner. And the reasoning behind that is,
Speaker 3: you know those casts, they pick up twigs and grass
Speaker 3: and stones, and as they pick apart and takes those
Speaker 3: things off, they document where these twigs and stones were.
Speaker 3: That way, when they get to it, they can say, Okay,
Speaker 3: that weird impression inside the inside the cast isn't from
Speaker 3: the thing that made the impression, but it was from
Speaker 3: an artifact.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, so you basically compare the cast to the photographs itself,
Speaker 1: and I suppose in some ways there needs to be
Speaker 1: not that it would be probably any doubt, but a
Speaker 1: correlation like oh yeah, I see that rock in the picture.
Speaker 1: I see that rock in the cast. And then on
Speaker 1: top of that kind of separating what's actually an artifact
Speaker 1: from the foot and what's just noise from the ground, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean you have to be able to show
Speaker 3: that that cast came from that impression. And that's another
Speaker 3: reason why those photographs are so important. It kind of
Speaker 3: shows chain of custody of where that cast came from.
Speaker 3: And I think that was an issue with something I've
Speaker 3: seen before where I was sent to a blurry photograph
Speaker 3: saying this cast came from here, but that was the
Speaker 3: only photograph, and that makes it kind of difficult to say, hey, yes,
Speaker 3: this cast actually came from there, right right, I'm just
Speaker 3: going to add one more thing about photographing the casts.
Speaker 3: I think it only should be oblique lighting. I don't
Speaker 3: know where this thing started about putting fingerprint powder and
Speaker 3: trying to lift the fingerprints or dermal ridges off the
Speaker 3: cast with tape. You don't really want to destroy the
Speaker 3: evidence anymore unless you're going to be able to like
Speaker 3: thoroughly clean it. I don't know. We've never really like
Speaker 3: did stuff like that where we never would. I think
Speaker 3: if we were going to do something like that, we
Speaker 3: would use something like Acutrans, which is like a microsill.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Speaker 1: No, I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3: All right, So Acutrans is a forensic company. It's basically
Speaker 3: nothing more than the dental bite registration material that the
Speaker 3: dentists use. It basically has two things, kind of like
Speaker 3: two little two's. You squirt it and mixes together. It
Speaker 3: comes out and makes like a rubbery mold kind of thing.
Speaker 3: We use it for tool impressions things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, I know, I'm probably
Speaker 1: exposing myself as the elementary school teacher at heart. But
Speaker 1: you're talking about basically Plato, like a fancy Plato.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it hardens, It hardens like a plastic But yeah,
Speaker 3: but you won't be able to really manipulate it once
Speaker 3: it's dried. You can, you can bend it, but it's
Speaker 3: not going to deform anymore. So you could do that
Speaker 3: to put it over top and then mess with it,
Speaker 3: but we wouldn't keep messing with the cast for worry
Speaker 3: of hurting it anymore. The original piece or the last
Speaker 3: piece of evidence that you have.
Speaker 1: Okay, very good, Now you know the sas Quest dramatoglyphic
Speaker 1: thing is basically all that came to light with the
Speaker 1: Paul Freeman stuff from the nineteen eighty two cast from
Speaker 1: the Elk Wallow. And the first and the first person
Speaker 1: to look at it, and certainly the strongest advocate of
Speaker 1: these particular or ridges and whatnot was doctor Grover Krantz.
Speaker 1: Have you had a chance to read doctor Grover Krantz's
Speaker 1: book yet and his comments on the dramaticglyphics?
Speaker 3: No, I do have his book, it's right behind me.
Speaker 3: But I have not read it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The short time that I've been in it is basically
Speaker 3: since I contacted you. And I've been lucky and I've
Speaker 3: made a lot of contacts, but I also have a
Speaker 3: lot of books, and it's getting hard to keep up.
Speaker 3: I'm trying, I will say, if we're not going to
Speaker 3: go into the Onion Mountain cast, are we we can?
Speaker 1: We can? I just actually I watched your video the
Speaker 1: other day on it. I thought it was excellent. I
Speaker 1: thought it was excellent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. I'm not trying to make anybody mad.
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just trying
Speaker 3: to take a solid approach to it and offer my opinion.
Speaker 1: And well, that's what we're talking about science here though.
Speaker 1: This is we're trying to introduce science to this subject
Speaker 1: that has shrouded in mythology and like, I don't know
Speaker 1: what's the word, like spook ism, you know, like where
Speaker 1: people move on they have ridiculous things that they believe
Speaker 1: and they move forward with that because they believe it
Speaker 1: with no evidence to support it. Right, We're trying to
Speaker 1: introduce this the rules of evidence to this particular game.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody should be so emotionally attached to
Speaker 1: their evidence that when somebody with qualifications refutes it that
Speaker 1: they get but hurt about it and crawl away or
Speaker 1: get angry about it. I think that there's plenty of
Speaker 1: room for people to disagree and have, you know, adults
Speaker 1: and coherent conversations about things and come to some conclusion.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been wrong lots of time. I've been
Speaker 1: very publicly wrong lots of times about things that I've
Speaker 1: said about Bigfoot. But man, that's the nature of the game.
Speaker 1: If you're talking about Bigfoot out loud, you're probably going
Speaker 1: to say some things that aren't true eventually on accidents,
Speaker 1: even if you're doing your best to tell the truth
Speaker 1: all the time. You know, it's just one of those things.
Speaker 1: And so, like, I agree with you, I don't think
Speaker 1: that the Onion Mountain track does show dramaticglypics. I did
Speaker 1: it first because I took somebody else's word for it.
Speaker 1: But at the time time, because we kind of give
Speaker 1: away our power in some ways when we go to
Speaker 1: people who know more than us, and I think that's
Speaker 1: an appropriate thing. Like I would always refer to you
Speaker 1: because you live in a world of dramaticglyphics, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I would have to give that to
Speaker 1: you because you know so much more about it than
Speaker 1: I ever will. And I think that's appropriate. We can't
Speaker 1: know everything about everything, right. I have great misgivings about
Speaker 1: calling the Rinklefoot impressions as having dramatical ethics. I think
Speaker 1: those are water striations because I found similar markings on
Speaker 1: my cement floor in my garage. And there's another cast
Speaker 1: actually from the nineteen eighty two Grays Harbor events that
Speaker 1: I actually uncovered myself. I was like hidden, nobody knew
Speaker 1: about it until probably twenty twelve or something like that.
Speaker 1: Turns out a woman up in Elma, Washington and had
Speaker 1: this cast in her garage that her husband casts at
Speaker 1: the same day as the Hereford casts. All these other
Speaker 1: casts were taken. They show the same casting artifacts as
Speaker 1: the Onion Mountain cast. So, and certainly those are not
Speaker 1: dramatic elypics. I think there's lots of room for disagreement.
Speaker 1: But and of course then you get into the things
Speaker 1: that are clearly dramaticlyphics, clearly dramaticlyphics, But then there are
Speaker 1: still questions were they introduced afterwards? Because humans have a
Speaker 1: very bad habit of touching things that they're interested in.
Speaker 1: Are they from the sasquatch? And there' there's so many
Speaker 1: questions that are left unanswered and so far. I mean,
Speaker 1: Jimmy chilcut I think was very brave by sticking his
Speaker 1: neck out like that. I disagree with a couple of
Speaker 1: his conclusions, but that doesn't take away anything from his
Speaker 1: expertise in my opinion. And I'm glad you're in the
Speaker 1: game now, I guess is kind of what I'm saying
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. But we have a
Speaker 1: lot to learn about sasquatch dramaticlyphics. And one of the
Speaker 1: first things that I want to ask about the sasquatch
Speaker 1: dramaticallyphics or any ape dramaticlyphics is and you may or
Speaker 1: may not know this, I don't know, do they come
Speaker 1: in different sizes? And like, for example, if I look
Speaker 1: at or even human human dramaticlyphics, are they more or
Speaker 1: less generally uniform in spacing and that sort of stuff?
Speaker 1: And how does that differ in the other ape species?
Speaker 1: All right, So the answer is, yeah, they do vary
Speaker 1: within humans or within species.
Speaker 3: Within humans and species not so much. I think the
Speaker 3: only real studies that I've seen within humans is comparing
Speaker 3: like adult males to adult males and adult females to
Speaker 3: adult females. And basically, the female friction ridges are there
Speaker 3: going to be more dense, They're going to have more
Speaker 3: of them closer together, and they're going to be a
Speaker 3: little thinner, you know, in diameter cross and the males
Speaker 3: are going to be larger now definitely children as you go,
Speaker 3: of course, they're going to be smaller now. Chill Cut
Speaker 3: was nice enough to send me some texts with some
Speaker 3: pictures of different types, and I think I had a
Speaker 3: couple monkeys and orangutan and a gorilla of fingers, And
Speaker 3: while there was no scale in the in the photographs,
Speaker 3: it was readily apparent that they were of different sizes
Speaker 3: and even spacing. I found it pretty interesting in that
Speaker 3: one of the smaller monkeys actually had very wide ridges.
Speaker 3: I expected it to be smaller, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: body goes smaller, ridges go smaller. I expected that to happen,
Speaker 3: but it didn't appear as though it did. But that
Speaker 3: also could be a perspective issue with the with the picture,
Speaker 3: since there was no scale. But I think when I
Speaker 3: look at some of the bottom of gorilla feet and
Speaker 3: I see the crazy amount of ridge flow there and
Speaker 3: it looks so similar to ours. But they're also, you know,
Speaker 3: about the same size. I have never seen a gorilla foot,
Speaker 3: but I'm talking about as in like height wise, but
Speaker 3: I would say definitely that they vary in size, and
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be surprised if something that was eight nine
Speaker 3: feet tall that those ridges weren't wider, I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 3: But I also am going to reserve it or seeing
Speaker 3: the variances between the monkeys and the gorillas and the
Speaker 3: chimpanzees and so on, that I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 3: it wasn't stilled our size.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the derms that I've seen on the Freeman cast
Speaker 1: do seem to be about the same as human size,
Speaker 1: and I've never you know, I don't know how to
Speaker 1: measure anything quite that small personally, but they don't to
Speaker 1: my eye, at least, they don't look dramatically different in
Speaker 1: any that's in any way. And that could be because
Speaker 1: Fraeman touched some prints. We know that Paul did that
Speaker 1: at some point. We know that in the very very
Speaker 1: first time he cast prints in June of nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1: He definitely touched the footprint in the ground because there
Speaker 1: are there are finger marks. And again, I mean lots
Speaker 1: of people do this. You can see the same features
Speaker 1: and the one cast from peter Burn, there's evidence of
Speaker 1: touching the footprint for Bob Titmas. A lot of people
Speaker 1: have touched stuff in the ground when they look at it.
Speaker 1: That's just what humans do, of course, So we don't
Speaker 1: know if that was introduced or not, mister Freeman or not.
Speaker 3: That was something that you introduced to me that I
Speaker 3: never even considered when we were talking when I was
Speaker 3: first looking at one of those casts, and you reminded
Speaker 3: me that when somebody comes across something that looks so
Speaker 3: crazy that their first instinct is to reach in and
Speaker 3: touch it. And I'm like, whoa, you know, my brain
Speaker 3: is in a different world, you know, for law enforcement.
Speaker 3: And then it totally made sense, and I was like, okay,
Speaker 3: let me rethink, you know, because my brain was going
Speaker 3: straight to someone maybe fabricating something versus accidental or unintentional.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 1: Will be right back after these messages. Yeah, I know
Speaker 1: whether people have recommended things to you, but ignore them.
Speaker 1: Read doctor Krantz's book. I'm kidding, of course, like listen
Speaker 1: to everybody, but doctor Krantz's book is a fantastic first step.
Speaker 1: There's actually when you're someone like you whose expertise is dramaticglyphics,
Speaker 1: because he's the first guy that really advocated for it,
Speaker 1: and he felt at the time that the dramatoglyphic evidence
Speaker 1: was strong enough that perhaps those can be accepted as
Speaker 1: the holotype of the species. In other words, can we
Speaker 1: prove the species with the dramatoglyphics to avoid killing one.
Speaker 1: That was his intent that he was saying, well, this
Speaker 1: can't be fake. And he brought it to various experts,
Speaker 1: and some of these experts you may even know, because
Speaker 1: he does name some of some of them in the book.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what their names were, of course, but
Speaker 1: you might have heard of these things being in your
Speaker 1: specialized field he was. That was his intent to try
Speaker 1: to prove the species without killing one, even though he
Speaker 1: was more than happy to kill one too. He's very
Speaker 1: very well known for that. Do you think that dramatoglyphic
Speaker 1: evidence could rise to that level.
Speaker 3: I think the problem that we have no matter what,
Speaker 3: when we're looking at friction ridges or dermal ridges within
Speaker 3: those footprints that we find or on a cast, is
Speaker 3: we may be able to definitively say yes, these are
Speaker 3: dermal ridges, and the depositor actually put those there. I
Speaker 3: think the problem is it's not a controlled sample, like
Speaker 3: no one, you know, actually observed a big foot stepping
Speaker 3: into that spot and leaving those those dermal ridges within
Speaker 3: that footprint. I think if you were to hand me
Speaker 3: a fifteen you know, sixteen foot cast and there were
Speaker 3: clear dermal ridges running from end to end, I think
Speaker 3: we may have something there.
Speaker 1: Fifteen foot you mean inch cast?
Speaker 3: I assume fifteen inch fifteen inch, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a sixty foot bigfoot. Yeah, unbelievable.
Speaker 3: I think you know, it's going to have to be
Speaker 3: something large, because if it falls within the human realm,
Speaker 3: you know, the human size, then that's easily just dismissed.
Speaker 3: But you give me something that no one's ever seen
Speaker 3: in the middle of nowhere, I think a lot of
Speaker 3: people still aren't going to accept it. But someone like
Speaker 3: me may be able to look at those friction ridges
Speaker 3: and say, listen, that went in with the original impression
Speaker 3: and in the ground. I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 3: I don't know anything else, but those went in with
Speaker 3: the impression into the ground and they weren't introduced later
Speaker 3: that can be done.
Speaker 1: That brings up an interesting question, at least to my mind.
Speaker 1: And this is something that Jimmy Chilcut was advocating for.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's true, but maybe you do.
Speaker 1: Maybe you don't know yet, but this is definitely something
Speaker 1: that you probably can figure out. Do Different species of apes,
Speaker 1: including humans, have different ridge flow patterns. So if you
Speaker 1: look at a blank canvas and you have enough dramaticlythics,
Speaker 1: can you tell if it came from an orangutan? Can
Speaker 1: you tell if it came from bonobo? Could you tell something? Oh,
Speaker 1: this is an unknown species because this is a ridge
Speaker 1: pattern that I've never seen before. Or are they all
Speaker 1: more or less the same? Because, as you so astutely
Speaker 1: pointed out in your fantastic video about the Onion Mountain cast,
Speaker 1: dramaticlythics are perpendicular to the direction of growth and a foot,
Speaker 1: and therefore your feet all grow the same, and so
Speaker 1: the ridge flu patterns are more or less the same.
Speaker 3: It would begin with having those known, those exemplar samples,
Speaker 3: So I would, honestly, I would have to have a
Speaker 3: series of bonobo footprints right to be able to compare
Speaker 3: to them.
Speaker 1: Could you have a bonobo foot?
Speaker 3: If you had one, you could say there is a possibility,
Speaker 3: because even on the bottom of my foot versus the
Speaker 3: bottom of my partner's foot at work, he has a
Speaker 3: loop pattern that goes right across the center, and mine
Speaker 3: all goes straight across. So you can still have a
Speaker 3: few variances here and there, but generally speaking, they're all
Speaker 3: going to be about the same because all of our
Speaker 3: human feet grow the same way. You're right, but I
Speaker 3: would I'm speaking out a turn when I'm saying I
Speaker 3: have not seen enough of the bottom of any of
Speaker 3: the monkey's feet or eight feet to be able to
Speaker 3: tell you what's a consistent known I would guess that
Speaker 3: they pretty much since they're pretty much forming the same
Speaker 3: way throughout their species. You know, remember when I was
Speaker 3: talking about developmental stability. If all their feet are basically
Speaker 3: growing the same way, then I'm expecting for all those
Speaker 3: friction ridges to grow the same way with just a
Speaker 3: few tiny variances. That makes them individual.
Speaker 1: Are you aware of a company called Skeletons Unlimited or
Speaker 1: Bones Clones. They're two different companies. They cross license some stuff,
Speaker 1: so they have a lot of the same catalog. Are
Speaker 1: you familiar with that company at all or either one
Speaker 1: of them? Rather? I am, I am okay. Are you
Speaker 1: aware that they make life casts of the feet and
Speaker 1: the hands of the great apes?
Speaker 3: Yes, I just can't afford it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, And I bought an orangutan life casts
Speaker 1: from them for display at the North American Bigfoot Center.
Speaker 1: It went on a display with the orangu Dang, which
Speaker 1: is a large biped that that it's reported to live
Speaker 1: in western Sumatra, and they, unlike a sasquatch, they have
Speaker 1: a big toe that is abducted, which means off to
Speaker 1: the side like a thumb. And yeah, yeah, it's very
Speaker 1: very interesting. And people have argued, no, that's just an
Speaker 1: orangutan on the ground, But so I put an orangutan foot,
Speaker 1: actual life casts of an orangutan foot on the same
Speaker 1: display as the Orangu Dang casts that I managed to
Speaker 1: obtain and clearly showing that they are not the same
Speaker 1: at all. But I guess the point is that the
Speaker 1: orangutan foot life cast you can see the dramaticalytics plane
Speaker 1: as they That might be an interesting avenue and it's
Speaker 1: probably tax deductible for you to go ahead and and
Speaker 1: purchase the whole slew of hand and foot im pressure
Speaker 1: or life casts from this company. I actually have hand
Speaker 1: casts from all the great ape species humans and bonobos
Speaker 1: and chimps and orangutans and gorillas and sasquatches in another
Speaker 1: display at the North American big Foot Center to show
Speaker 1: their similarities and differences, and they to show the dramaticallypics
Speaker 1: on the on the hands. So I mean it's hard
Speaker 1: to get actual ape hands because all ape species are
Speaker 1: endangered at this moment except for humans too. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're in danger for ourselves.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, you hear what I'm saying. You smell.
Speaker 1: You're smelling when I'm stepping in. I think that might
Speaker 1: be a good way for you to to increase your
Speaker 1: breadth of study into the non human primates.
Speaker 3: I don't know what kind of money you think the
Speaker 3: police pay me.
Speaker 1: Man, I'm a big footer, I'm a big fetter. You
Speaker 1: got to be making more than me.
Speaker 2: Put it on the police budget.
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go you.
Speaker 2: Know, you know what, Well, speaking of like hand prints
Speaker 2: and stuff for your purposes, wouldn't it be better to
Speaker 2: have like the glass on windows and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: or the side of ability that's that's a lot better
Speaker 2: to get their baticle things off a hand than trying
Speaker 2: to get a print like was bending down on a
Speaker 2: water hole or something like that.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, absolutely, I would love to get my hands
Speaker 3: on some of that stuff. That's our bread and butter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because clip after we had the guests in Ohio,
Speaker 2: I've been wanting to talk to you since that. That
Speaker 2: was a couple months ago. He said that you can
Speaker 2: prove that those were made by a human.
Speaker 3: I can prove that the hand impressions that are in
Speaker 3: those dusty areas like the table and the grill that's shown,
Speaker 3: those hands were actually set down in the dust and
Speaker 3: wiggled back and forth to make the impression. And that's
Speaker 3: something that I wouldn't think that a bigfoot walking by
Speaker 3: and accidentally touching something which stand there and press their
Speaker 3: hand and wiggle it back and forth, it almost looks
Speaker 3: like it's intentionally made to make the impression.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was least impressed with that part. But
Speaker 2: the prints on the glass on the vehicle. Those are
Speaker 2: the ones I found, like the baby gorilla armed comparison and
Speaker 2: all that. I found that pretty compelling. Like I mean,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen a lot of Bigfoot researchers that take
Speaker 2: those final detailed photos because she's like a professional photographer.
Speaker 3: So I've looked at those very carefully, and almost all
Speaker 3: of those impressions that are on the glass, especially on
Speaker 3: the car, those were pressed straight down and lifted straight up.
Speaker 3: Well some of them were. There are some fingerprints that
Speaker 3: they show that I don't think that they realize that
Speaker 3: they're actually inverted. And they go up underneath that little
Speaker 3: rubber strip that's at the top part of the window
Speaker 3: of the glass of the driver's side door. And the
Speaker 3: only way that that could have been deposited is if
Speaker 3: that window was down and a hand from inside the
Speaker 3: car deposited those fingerprints and then the window was rolled
Speaker 3: back up. Those cannot have been deposited unless the window
Speaker 3: was down and then rolled back up again, and then
Speaker 3: they are also inverted. So more than likely that's from
Speaker 3: somebody having the door open with the window down and
Speaker 3: they're reached up and grabbed the glass and you know,
Speaker 3: like you go to pull your door shut, but you
Speaker 3: grab the glass. That's exactly what it looked like. Then
Speaker 3: there's another one that she says, it looks like a.
Speaker 1: Juvenile gorilla elbow.
Speaker 3: Oh, not that one. It was a juvenile footprint that
Speaker 3: was on the on the glass as well. And she
Speaker 3: does a comparison of a like a monkey foot or
Speaker 3: a gorilla foot and put some side by side. But
Speaker 3: it's actually the right side of the writer's palm of
Speaker 3: a hand. It's it's it's not a foot. I was
Speaker 3: able to easily identify that and just move on the arm.
Speaker 3: I can't tell you it's definitely an arm, but I
Speaker 3: can't tell you where it came from. There's not enough
Speaker 3: identifying characteristics on it to say what made But it
Speaker 3: is an arm. But my problem is is once I
Speaker 3: start to see a bunch of red flags, and it's
Speaker 3: one red flag after another after or another, I mean,
Speaker 3: I could be very well. I could very well be wrong,
Speaker 3: but not wrong about the impressions. I won't be clear
Speaker 3: about that, but I could be wrong about the entire situation.
Speaker 3: I don't want to say anybody's faking anything, but they
Speaker 3: could be misinterpreting some of the stuff that's happening. And
Speaker 3: that's what I think is happening. I think maybe some
Speaker 3: stuff happened on her property and in looking for other evidence,
Speaker 3: may have found some that she's just misinterpreting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think she's a hoaxer at all. I
Speaker 2: mean misinterpretation would my mind, would be the most logical
Speaker 2: if you can show that, yeah, this is indeed not
Speaker 2: deposited by a bigfoot.
Speaker 1: So now that we're talking about impressions on or not impressions,
Speaker 1: that's the freight word. But mars I guess on glass
Speaker 1: and whatnot. You know, I do hear a lot of
Speaker 1: bigfooters claiming to have, you know, a handprint on the
Speaker 1: back of their car, or an arm print on top
Speaker 1: of the hood, and these sorts of things. What is
Speaker 1: the correct way to deal to really get the most
Speaker 1: to deal with that kind of evidence and also get
Speaker 1: the most out of that evidence, because clearly there would
Speaker 1: be sebum on it, which of course is the goo
Speaker 1: that coats our body, you know, and there might be
Speaker 1: DNA in there. Is it just a matter of collecting
Speaker 1: the pattern itself? I doing a fingerprint lift of some sort.
Speaker 1: What would like you do if you went and camping
Speaker 1: at one of your spots and then you found a
Speaker 1: big old handprint on the side of your car. What
Speaker 1: would you do to collect that evidence and get the
Speaker 1: most out of it.
Speaker 3: So the very first thing that I would do is
Speaker 3: I would put some type of scale or fix some
Speaker 3: type of scale on the window next to that impression.
Speaker 3: And the reason that I'm going to do that first
Speaker 3: is because I'm going to take a series of like
Speaker 3: three hundred and sixty degree photographs to show where my
Speaker 3: vehicle is, you know, put it in a context where's
Speaker 3: my car? And it also shows from a distance where
Speaker 3: by that impression is. You can see the sticker or
Speaker 3: their scale hanging there, so now you know where it is.
Speaker 3: So when I do my closer up photographs, you don't think, well,
Speaker 3: and I can't even tell where that is, you know,
Speaker 3: that seems to be a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Context, That's actually something I don't really think about as
Speaker 1: much as I should, the context of the situation. I
Speaker 1: always zero in on, say the footprint or the thing
Speaker 1: of interest, and I rarely show the context and take
Speaker 1: a bunch of pictures like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easy to get tunnel vision because you get
Speaker 3: excited and you're like, oh my gosh, there's my evidence.
Speaker 3: I got to get it. I'm going to take pictures
Speaker 3: of it. But you do need to take those three
Speaker 3: hundred and sixties placing it where it's at, because everyone's
Speaker 3: going to say, well, where was this And if you
Speaker 3: take a shot behind the car and it's behind a kmart,
Speaker 3: now you have a problem, right, But if you're doing
Speaker 3: three sixty and you're out in the middle of nowhere,
Speaker 3: it may lend some more credibility. But so I would
Speaker 3: do that, and then i'd come in and do those pictures,
Speaker 3: just like I did with the footprint earlier. With the
Speaker 3: side lighting, with the sidelighting, that's all you need. If
Speaker 3: you can see it with your eyes without having put
Speaker 3: powder on it, then you can hit side lighting on
Speaker 3: it and it's going to make it pop. I think
Speaker 3: the biggest mistake people make is trying to angle their
Speaker 3: camera to get the right image because they can't see
Speaker 3: it and they're using the glare to try to see it.
Speaker 3: What they should be doing is keeping that camera parallel
Speaker 3: to the surface and using your own lighting from the
Speaker 3: sides to make it pop. And a little trick. If
Speaker 3: you have clear glass and you're having trouble putting it
Speaker 3: making it show up. You can put something dark on
Speaker 3: the other side of the glass. We carry like black
Speaker 3: sheets of paper, black fingerprint cards, and we'll actually tape
Speaker 3: it to the other side of the glass so it
Speaker 3: can offer some contracts.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after these messages.
Speaker 3: So after the photographing, the next thing that we would
Speaker 3: do is we would look to see if there's an
Speaker 3: area that may lend itself for swabbing for DNA. So
Speaker 3: basically a spot that's not going to have our good
Speaker 3: dermal ridges, you know, maybe just some smears or something.
Speaker 3: So we've already documented it with the camera. Now we
Speaker 3: can touch the stuff that doesn't matter. So now I
Speaker 3: can take my swabs of the stuff that doesn't have
Speaker 3: my dermal ridges and I'll tell you now, you know,
Speaker 3: it used to be we we fingerprint powder everything now still,
Speaker 3: but we mainly work from photographs on fingerprints, so scale
Speaker 3: with photographs, that's pretty much it. But if you want
Speaker 3: to take it with you, now it's time to break
Speaker 3: out the fingerprint powder or something else. You know, a
Speaker 3: lot of people I have a partner who has a
Speaker 3: YouTube channel to The Science Detective, and he just did
Speaker 3: an episode where they used makeup the process for fingerprints.
Speaker 1: We did that actually on a face smudge from Texas.
Speaker 1: I was at a conference and the people had who
Speaker 1: had multiple sasquatch encounters on their property, they found a
Speaker 1: big face smug at about like six and a half
Speaker 1: or so feet above the ground on their one glass
Speaker 1: when they close all the curtains every single night because
Speaker 1: the bigfoot they saw on their property freaked them out.
Speaker 1: And the only one on in their entire house that
Speaker 1: hasn't been blocked off was the front door, and they
Speaker 1: found a big face smudge higher than any taller than
Speaker 1: anybody else in the house, you know, like above anybody
Speaker 1: else's level. And I went to the Texas conference in
Speaker 1: Jefferson by Craig wool Heater's conference a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and the witnesses were there and they actually removed the
Speaker 1: door and brought it to us.
Speaker 3: I was laughing because I was just thinking, we've done
Speaker 3: the same thing where we've gone. It looks too fragile,
Speaker 3: we're taking the door.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really nice of them to do. And
Speaker 1: Shelley coming to Montana, and I got to work, and
Speaker 1: of course I heard that they were doing this when
Speaker 1: I was already en route to the airport, you know,
Speaker 1: so I couldn't bring my fingerprint kit that I have
Speaker 1: at home or anything like that, And so I was
Speaker 1: texting back and forth with Shelley and she actually used,
Speaker 1: like I makeup of some sort and crunched up even further,
Speaker 1: made a very very fine black powder, and we use
Speaker 1: that in lieu of the graphite powder that we would
Speaker 1: normally use for a fingerprint lift. And we pulled the
Speaker 1: facelift and it's actually in the museum right now too,
Speaker 1: So that's kind of a neat thing that we have
Speaker 1: on display.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you understand the process, you can get creative
Speaker 3: with your materials. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, improvising, right, improvising so always. I'm a jazz musician
Speaker 1: after all.
Speaker 2: So still do they still recommend doing that like heating
Speaker 2: up super glue and like putting like a little tart
Speaker 2: type thing over the glass or whatever the print's on,
Speaker 2: and then letting the super glue heat up like boil,
Speaker 2: and that cloud that comes off it will make a
Speaker 2: perfect it'll cover the print perfect for show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we still use super glue fuming inside the lab.
Speaker 3: We don't do it out in the field so much.
Speaker 3: We pretty much use black black fingerprint powder out in
Speaker 3: the field if we're gonna go for fingerprints. But we
Speaker 3: make the distinction when we're out on is it something
Speaker 3: we can take with us to the lab. If it's
Speaker 3: something we can take with us, then it's going to
Speaker 3: be super glued. We're not going to put fingerprint powder
Speaker 3: on it. Fingerprint powder is more destructive, right, But yeah,
Speaker 3: we're gonna use We use super glue every other day.
Speaker 3: I was just doing it today.
Speaker 2: Where did you learn this? Did you go to like
Speaker 2: the chronicle the FBI school for this or did you
Speaker 2: learn from like a distuot apartment or how did you
Speaker 2: learn all this?
Speaker 3: So it's it started off just learning how to, you know,
Speaker 3: use my fingerprint brush and powder. When I was on
Speaker 3: the street, we were required to try to lift fingerprints
Speaker 3: off of certain crimes. But when I went to the
Speaker 3: crime scene unit. We actually have a large training facility
Speaker 3: here in Georgia called the Georgia Public Safety Training Center,
Speaker 3: and we were required to basically take all these classes,
Speaker 3: you know, so we could get certifications and things like that.
Speaker 3: And then I went to the three and a half
Speaker 3: months at the National Forensic Academy, you know, to even
Speaker 3: up my game even more. And then it became about
Speaker 3: I became addicted to fingerprints and how to get them
Speaker 3: off of difficult surfaces. And that's pretty much what I
Speaker 3: do now is read and study how to do that.
Speaker 3: It became a what can I do to get off
Speaker 3: of this? What can I do to get it off
Speaker 3: of this? And me and my partner we became really
Speaker 3: good at it. But his area is bloodstain and minus
Speaker 3: fingerprints and fingerprint processing, and we actually got so good
Speaker 3: at what we do that we're now consulting for different
Speaker 3: different agencies and different counties. We're working cold cases for
Speaker 3: other counties, so we got pretty well known in our area.
Speaker 3: But it's it's a love, honestly. And I've had some
Speaker 3: really challenging things of trying to get fingerprints off of
Speaker 3: and unfortunately I figured out one only to find out
Speaker 3: that we use the last of the product that they
Speaker 3: don't make anymore, So that that was an interesting one.
Speaker 2: What do they teach you about casting? Do they give
Speaker 2: to give you any tricks about casting like footprints? Like
Speaker 2: what kind of medium do you use like do they
Speaker 2: use plaster pressure or dental stone? Like what do they
Speaker 2: give you any any pointers?
Speaker 3: So we use we use dental stone, you know, different
Speaker 3: kinds we've we've played with different kinds. Unfortunately we don't
Speaker 3: have snow here, so we don't get to play with that.
Speaker 3: I've only read about it and studied it, not I've
Speaker 3: not been able to actually do it in practice. But
Speaker 3: really and truly, what you have to do is you
Speaker 3: can't just carry it around with you and decide to
Speaker 3: do it on that you know that one time that
Speaker 3: it matters, you have to practice. You have to practice.
Speaker 3: And where I get a lot of my practice is
Speaker 3: is when I'm teaching it, and not just teaching other csis.
Speaker 3: But we have like Citizens Police Academy, we have teenage
Speaker 3: Citizens Police Academy and we'll make casts, pull fingerprints and
Speaker 3: you know, the more you teach, more you talk about it,
Speaker 3: the better you get. But as far as the casting goes,
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that I like to
Speaker 3: do is I still like to put that metal frame
Speaker 3: around my cast. And I know a lot of people
Speaker 3: don't like to do it, but I like to do
Speaker 3: it because it helps show the depth you know how
Speaker 3: deep the the impression was in the ground. And you
Speaker 3: know a lot of people they just pour the material
Speaker 3: straight in, which you really shouldn't do pouring it straight
Speaker 3: in because that can damage you know, if there's any
Speaker 3: you know, dermal ridges or anything like that, that weight
Speaker 3: to that hitting it right off the bat can damage
Speaker 3: some of that.
Speaker 2: So what do you do?
Speaker 3: You pour it from the side you find the high
Speaker 3: ground or believe it or not. If you're pouring it
Speaker 3: from the side, right on the edge, the weights coming
Speaker 3: out of that bag, coming from the side will help
Speaker 3: push it in. And once you get that first little
Speaker 3: bit into that section that it fell over the edge on,
Speaker 3: then you can start pouring in from right there and
Speaker 3: let it fill up. But you always start from the
Speaker 3: outside and let it go kind of pour in. You
Speaker 3: don't just pour it straight into the cat into the impression.
Speaker 2: What about really like muddy ground? Do you guys around
Speaker 2: rock salt or anything like that.
Speaker 3: I'd never used salt or anything like that. I did
Speaker 3: watch a guy try to use a straw and suck
Speaker 3: the water out because it started raining and he was
Speaker 3: dead set on getting that impression. He ended up getting it,
Speaker 3: But he built stuff put an umbrella around it. I
Speaker 3: think it just became a I'm not giving up, you know,
Speaker 3: it's not going to beat me kind of thing. But
Speaker 3: as far as super muddy prints, unfortunately in our line work,
Speaker 3: we don't have the time. What we're gonna do then
Speaker 3: is we're going to photograph to the best of our
Speaker 3: ability and do everything like we did before, and there's
Speaker 3: a chance we may have to leave it if it's
Speaker 3: too muddy and it's not going to take the material
Speaker 3: give way. Now, if it was personally and I was
Speaker 3: out and I found something that I thought was a
Speaker 3: big foot impression, I'm camping there right. I'm not leaving
Speaker 3: the impression until and I'm going to protect it because
Speaker 3: that's a piece of evidence. You can't let go, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not leaving it.
Speaker 1: Well, you deal with what I've done. Whether there's standing
Speaker 1: water inside of a footprint, or it's super saturated soil
Speaker 1: or whatever is it. You just make the mix thicker,
Speaker 1: and it seems to it sucks a lot of the
Speaker 1: water out of the ground, or it uses the water
Speaker 1: that's standing in the impression and kind of adds that
Speaker 1: to the mix. So you can actually just make a
Speaker 1: pretty thick mix and depending on how much water is
Speaker 1: present anywhere from you know, like but I always shoot
Speaker 1: personally for like a pancake batter consistency when I do plaster.
Speaker 1: But you know, it can be thicker than that, even
Speaker 1: all the way up to almost like a just under
Speaker 1: a clay, and it'll I find that it'll actually absorb
Speaker 1: a lot of the water in the ground or the
Speaker 1: standing water in the impression. Am I doing that incorrect?
Speaker 1: Or would you have a different way to look at
Speaker 1: that problem with a solution?
Speaker 3: So when we were first talking about it, I thought
Speaker 3: I was thinking about like standing water and stuff like that,
Speaker 3: But if we're talking about just like a super saturated
Speaker 3: kind of thing. I've seen this method employed and it
Speaker 3: works fairly well. You take your your dental stone and
Speaker 3: you use like a flower sifter, and you just kind
Speaker 3: of lightly put like a small layer of the dental
Speaker 3: stone straight in without mixing. You just kind of, you know,
Speaker 3: like a just kind of sifted over the impression and
Speaker 3: you let it sit for a second, and then you
Speaker 3: do it again and again until you get like that
Speaker 3: fine little layer and it can help harden that little bit.
Speaker 3: Then you can start pouring your regular cast, I mean
Speaker 3: your regular material.
Speaker 1: I was told you could do that same technique with snow,
Speaker 1: and I've done a little bit of experimenting with it.
Speaker 1: It seems to work, okay. I'm I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: doing it right, but it seems to work okay. But
Speaker 1: i'd like I don't. I'm not a big fan of
Speaker 1: snow personally, but I do need to get out into
Speaker 1: the snow just to practice a little bit more with
Speaker 1: that technique. So beyond snow acts, would you recommend trying that?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: Am I on the right path with that one?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: I remember I told you I'm I'm in Georgia. We
Speaker 3: don't have snow.
Speaker 1: Well, it's this white cold stuff. It's terrible. You would
Speaker 1: hate it.
Speaker 3: I've read. I've read about it. No, I've read about
Speaker 3: I think there's another method too, where it's like this
Speaker 3: weird sulfur mix that it's a powder that they sprinkle
Speaker 3: over it. I don't know exactly how it works, because again,
Speaker 3: not ever really a concern of mine. If it snows here,
Speaker 3: it's melted in an hour or so, unless it's you know,
Speaker 3: two of our major storms in the past ten years.
Speaker 2: Well, what about a hairspray. People always talk about hairspray.
Speaker 2: He's in that to secure the track and then pour it.
Speaker 2: It sounds that sounds like it damages it to me.
Speaker 3: So hairspray is an interesting thing because it can work
Speaker 3: wonderfully or it can hurt you. I recently read a
Speaker 3: paper on using hair spray on two different types of sand.
Speaker 3: It was construction sand versus beach sand. I think the
Speaker 3: study was flawed because they didn't tell you what beach
Speaker 3: because you know, all beaches have like different types of sand.
Speaker 3: But they determined that the beach sand was better off
Speaker 3: without the hair spray, and the construction sand got better
Speaker 3: cast with the hairspray. So basically, what I learned from
Speaker 3: that was, if I'm going to use hairspray for my
Speaker 3: area or for a different type of soil that I've
Speaker 3: not used before, I may forego it until I've at
Speaker 3: least practiced on it and see what it will do
Speaker 3: to my soil.
Speaker 2: Would you hold it like would you hold it like
Speaker 2: far away and just kind of fog it like not?
Speaker 2: You wouldn't want it like a drug. You'd want to
Speaker 2: be like subtle feet away, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you wanted to just miss and kind of fall in.
Speaker 3: You don't you don't want that air pressure disturbing anything
Speaker 3: within the cast. I also heard something the other day.
Speaker 3: I made remark, and maybe you guys can answer this
Speaker 3: for me. I heard somebody talking about I made a
Speaker 3: remark about how come every time I see a cast
Speaker 3: or a picture of a foot impression that someone's saying
Speaker 3: is a bigfoot, it looks like somehow the foot removed
Speaker 3: all the material within it. You know, it's like all
Speaker 3: this beautiful grass, but then there's mud. And someone told
Speaker 3: me that they're removing all the material out of the
Speaker 3: impression so they can take pictures, and then that's kind
Speaker 3: of a thing. Is that a thing?
Speaker 1: Well, I personally would remove anything that isn't attached to
Speaker 1: the ground because it gets in the way of the impression,
Speaker 1: especially in photographs. I mean, if you're just going to
Speaker 1: cast it, it'll just engulf whatever. It's like whatever pine
Speaker 1: needles or a branch might be above it, and you
Speaker 1: can just break it off later and set the cast.
Speaker 1: But I would try to remove anything that isn't actually
Speaker 1: connected to the ground if it shows any resistance when
Speaker 1: I might maybe tap it or something like that, I
Speaker 1: just leave it in personally, that's what I've ended up doing.
Speaker 3: I think I would do the same thing, but I
Speaker 3: would photograph it. It was found first that way, it
Speaker 3: doesn't look like I found it the way you know,
Speaker 3: found it with all that stuff out of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually it's interesting that you even said that,
Speaker 1: because I was out yesterday. I went yesterday and the
Speaker 1: day before to one of my spots because there's some
Speaker 1: tracks up on the hill right now, and I found
Speaker 1: in the drainage ditch on the side of the road.
Speaker 1: And I'll even texas to you as i'm speaking to you,
Speaker 1: but I on the side of the road a little
Speaker 1: mark there they go that kind of looks like a print.
Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting, and and I was thinking, well,
Speaker 1: that seems odd because all the duff has is not there,
Speaker 1: but it's everywhere else in the in the ditch. It's
Speaker 1: probably not a track, but I'm going to take a
Speaker 1: picture of it anyway, just to document it, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And then I brought that I found that on Monday.
Speaker 1: Today's Wednesday, in case everybody's listening here. In case anybody's listening,
Speaker 1: it's Wednesday, so I forget people listen at all, But Monday,
Speaker 1: I found the track right, and I said, oh, that's cool.
Speaker 1: I took a picture of it. And so when I
Speaker 1: send you the picture and I'll give this the map
Speaker 1: prude as well, you can put it on social media
Speaker 1: or something like that. I put the scale item. I
Speaker 1: lined it up with the edge of what I interpreted
Speaker 1: as a possible print. But I didn't really understand. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the foot was wet and removed the duff
Speaker 1: at the time or whatever. So the next day I
Speaker 1: went back with Nico, who has been a guest in
Speaker 1: the program. He's the manager at the n OFBC and
Speaker 1: we're all friends here, but he knows who Nico is.
Speaker 1: Nico has undergone, you know, training on tracking and all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, so he has a different eye.
Speaker 1: You know. I'm just a hobbyist that enjoys it. He's
Speaker 1: been trained. When I said, hey, Nico, look at this
Speaker 1: suppression that might be a footprint. I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1: And he got down on the ground and he goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: look look at the toes. And what I didn't see
Speaker 1: the toes. So I went down on the ground and
Speaker 1: sure enough, in front of this bear patch on the ground,
Speaker 1: you could see plain as day four to five, toes
Speaker 1: impressed into the douff itself. And so I'm now facing
Speaker 1: this this is not a problem, but this mystery. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: what were the circumstances when the sasquatch step there and
Speaker 1: there was another print up on the hill. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just an isolated thing, right, you know. So I'm looking
Speaker 1: at this situation now that since sasquatches do not walk
Speaker 1: in the same way that humans do. You know, they
Speaker 1: walk by peadly and you know, superficially the same, but
Speaker 1: they're very very different gates and actually the inner the
Speaker 1: dynamics and the interaction between their feet and the ground
Speaker 1: are dramatically different than in humans. They push off, they
Speaker 1: don't really use their toes to push off to this
Speaker 1: same extent as humans do. And I see this again
Speaker 1: and again and again when I'm looking at footprints in
Speaker 1: the ground itself, that all the pressure is on the
Speaker 1: planter surface, it's not on the toes itself. And I
Speaker 1: think this is one of those cases that the pressure
Speaker 1: or the circumstances at the time, maybe it was wet,
Speaker 1: maybe there's water flowing in the ditch. I don't know
Speaker 1: when this impression was made right. So there's something about
Speaker 1: the circumstances in which this impression was put down that
Speaker 1: the toes impressed made the lines that look like, you know,
Speaker 1: fingers or toes or whatever, but the rest of the
Speaker 1: surface of the foot apparently picked up what duff there was,
Speaker 1: or made it loose enough that it washed away or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm looking at here, but it's
Speaker 1: an interesting conundrum for me because when I went back
Speaker 1: with Nico and looked at it, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: plain as day that was a Sasquatch print. Thirteen to
Speaker 1: fourteen inches long, four to five toes are clearly visible
Speaker 1: that they are a little hard to see in the photograph,
Speaker 1: but they were absolutely there, absolutely there, and I was
Speaker 1: astonished when I looked at it.
Speaker 3: Well, it sounds like you analyzed it fairly well. I mean,
Speaker 3: I see the same thing on cars all the time.
Speaker 3: One of the worst things that happens to me is
Speaker 3: when they tell me to go process a car that
Speaker 3: was used in a crime and I walk into the
Speaker 3: evidence bay and I see the dang thing covered in dirt,
Speaker 3: and my first thought is, oh, man, because they're like, look,
Speaker 3: there's fingerprints. I'm like, no, that's finger marks. That's where
Speaker 3: that's where I hand touched the dirt and their oily
Speaker 3: stuff lifted the dirt right off. There's there's nothing here,
Speaker 3: But it sounds like you pretty much have already nailed
Speaker 3: it right on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was really interesting to me. So
Speaker 1: that is one of these circumstances where the foot actually
Speaker 1: did remove a lot of the stuff in the ground.
Speaker 1: And so I'm actually looking a little more closely because
Speaker 1: back in the day it's like, well, why would there
Speaker 1: be no stuff there? But there's stuff everywhere else, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of the issue that you were just mentioning there.
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, and I of course remove a
Speaker 1: lot of the debris before I cast it if it's
Speaker 1: removable without disturbing the soil. But here we are, like
Speaker 1: we're looking at a case in the ground where a
Speaker 1: sasquatch stepped there and somehow removed the duff with his feet,
Speaker 1: not purposefully, but just as an interaction between the ground
Speaker 1: and the surface of the foot. So that's another area
Speaker 1: that I apparently need to explore because it's happening. I mean,
Speaker 1: I saw it in the ground with my own eyes.
Speaker 1: Hopefully I'll take Bobo up there tomorrow or the next
Speaker 1: day to show him the print in the ground as
Speaker 1: well before the rain takes it.
Speaker 3: So I just got I just got that picture, and
Speaker 3: I can see those toes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't when I first looked at it because
Speaker 1: I was so tunnel visioned on the on the bare
Speaker 1: dirt part.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Well, I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't have seen
Speaker 3: them had you not said anything about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Luckily I got a scan of it. I can't
Speaker 1: do a cast because yesterday when I was poking at
Speaker 1: it and stuff that all that duff around it is
Speaker 1: very light and fluffy. I don't see how a cast
Speaker 1: could be could record that the unfortunately, So.
Speaker 3: Wow, all right, well that's one of those things that
Speaker 3: comes across and I go, interesting, Well, I.
Speaker 1: Love that you're actually getting out there, because again, looking
Speaker 1: back six or eight months whenever that was when you
Speaker 1: reached out, you're basically saying I think they might be real,
Speaker 1: but I want your help to convince me kind of,
Speaker 1: you know. So, well, now you're going out in the
Speaker 1: woods and you've taken another large step in that direction.
Speaker 1: I think that's just fantastic as far as keeping an
Speaker 1: open mind and being open to whatever comes next, because
Speaker 1: I've told you several times and you don't need to
Speaker 1: believe me at all. But they're real. They're actually there,
Speaker 1: and that's probably one of the weirdest things about it,
Speaker 1: you know, the weirdest thing about the species is that
Speaker 1: they're actually there.
Speaker 3: I felt like I could trust you.
Speaker 1: I don't lie. I'm wrong a lot, but I don't why.
Speaker 3: But you were I do believe that. I do believe
Speaker 3: that wholeheartily. But you're You're also kind enough to start
Speaker 3: sending me things. And once that happened, it became a
Speaker 3: I don't know that I can wait for more, you know,
Speaker 3: because you sent some stuff really fast, but then it
Speaker 3: slowed down because you're so busy. And then I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I don't know that I can wait any longer. I
Speaker 3: gotta go out and see if I can find myself.
Speaker 2: Pusher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a pusher of the Bigfoot drug right exactly. I
Speaker 1: gave you a couple of free samples, and I was
Speaker 1: going to keep coming back from please more, Please more.
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, I'll make you a couple of copies.
Speaker 1: I've got some pretty good molds of some of those
Speaker 1: early Freeman casts. I'd love your take on that stuff.
Speaker 1: I have a couple of the original Freeman's in my
Speaker 1: possess now. Of course, the rest of them will be
Speaker 1: coming in the next year or so when doctor Meltrim
Speaker 1: retires because of an arrangement we made with the Freeman's
Speaker 1: estate there, they're going to become living at the museum itself,
Speaker 1: so hopefully you can get out to the West Coast
Speaker 1: and check them out in person. But I've got to
Speaker 1: make some really high quality molds of the originals because
Speaker 1: most of my Frameman stuff with therms or second gens,
Speaker 1: or I have the first gens, but there's some second
Speaker 1: you know. If I can make molds like my quality,
Speaker 1: like high quality Cliff quality molds of the originals, I
Speaker 1: think I can preserve a lot of the details, at
Speaker 1: least until I can get you on the West coast here,
Speaker 1: you know. And i'd love your take on that stuff,
Speaker 1: because every time I've shared something with you, you have far
Speaker 1: surpassed my expectations as far as your response. You know,
Speaker 1: I gave you a cast, Hey what do you think
Speaker 1: of this? I expected an email going, oh, that's pretty interesting,
Speaker 1: but no, you gave me like a fourteen page report
Speaker 1: with photographs and analysis and citations, and it was I
Speaker 1: was astonished. I go, oh, crap, this guy's the like.
Speaker 1: Not that I knew you're the real deal, but this
Speaker 1: guy's into it right on because you called me all
Speaker 1: excited like you, George as he's a mass man. Because
Speaker 1: the only reason I'm good at all is because I
Speaker 1: surround myself with people who know more than me. You know,
Speaker 1: you're welcome, Bobo, but I am thrilled to have you
Speaker 1: on the team, so to speak, and anything I get,
Speaker 1: I just want to know what you think, because you know,
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Okay, I'm wrong. I'm not necessarily a
Speaker 1: proud person. I was wrong about the London cast on
Speaker 1: National TV, for example. You know, but the important thing
Speaker 1: about all this stuff is the truth. That's what's important
Speaker 1: about this because sasquatches, I know, I'm confident sasquatches are
Speaker 1: real animals, and if they are real, if they are
Speaker 1: truly there as I'm betting my entire life on the
Speaker 1: truth can withstand the scrutiny. And I want the best
Speaker 1: eyes in the business looking at this, looking hard at this,
Speaker 1: because the truth can always withstand the scrutiny.
Speaker 2: You see, it's shattering a lot of perceptions and dreams
Speaker 2: and hopes.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, all it takes is one man.
Speaker 3: All it takes this one, Yes, exactly, that's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm hoping.
Speaker 1: Well, well, David, thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: Bigfoot and Beyond with me and this guy right right
Speaker 1: next to me in my house. Really appreciate your expertise,
Speaker 1: and I'm also very appreciative of you kind of waiting
Speaker 1: into the subject. In five years, you and I can
Speaker 1: have a conversation and one of the things I believe,
Speaker 1: I predict you will say to me is that this
Speaker 1: was a bigger, bigger quagmire, a bigger pool, a bigger
Speaker 1: subject in general than you ever dreamt. And and but
Speaker 1: it's so intriguing that it's going to keep you going
Speaker 1: for five years. I know we're going to have that
Speaker 1: conversation to some degree on your reflections, because once the
Speaker 1: Bigfoot thing grabs hold, it doesn't let go. So like
Speaker 1: it or not, Man Gobakaba, hey, you are one of us.
Speaker 3: I honestly think that that's beginning to happen already. I
Speaker 3: love I love I love puzzle I love puzzles, and
Speaker 3: this is one gigantic puzzle that has so many different
Speaker 3: pieces and go in so many different directions. I just
Speaker 3: want to thank you guys for at least being a
Speaker 3: part of it and helping me begin it.
Speaker 2: So thank you, Thank you man. We're so glad to
Speaker 2: get people like We're dying for people like you to
Speaker 2: get involved more. You know, it's great. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us
Speaker 2: to see me.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And listeners out there, you got to check out this
Speaker 1: YouTube page. It's called Bigfoot Forensics, done by our guests here.
Speaker 1: David's again fantastic stuff, like literally probably one of the
Speaker 1: best YouTube channels out there. David just started this just
Speaker 1: a few months ago. I think there's four or five
Speaker 1: six episodes out at this point. They are fantastic. You
Speaker 1: gotta check it out Bigfoot Forensics on YouTube. Just just
Speaker 1: click that link in the show notes to bring you
Speaker 1: right there and help David out here. But help yourself
Speaker 1: out by subscribing today.
Speaker 2: And you can say you were there at the beginning
Speaker 2: because there's still like under one hundred likes on most
Speaker 2: of them, so you could be double digits in the
Speaker 2: lifecat count. So you're a pioneer listener if you get
Speaker 2: in on it now, So tune into that channel. It's good,
Speaker 2: it's great, and thank you David, and until next week,
Speaker 2: you're out there. Keep it Squatchy.
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