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Speaker 1: If you paid attention to the secularist kind of critique

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of Christianity, one of the arguments you will have heard

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from the secularist camp, it also of from some of

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the more kind of radical Protestant sex is that Christmas

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is a pagan festival. In my youth, I remember growing

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up there were people in the church where I grew

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up who argued for that and said that Christmas was

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a pagan festival, that it's not scriptural, it's not in

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the Bible, and it was basically a Christians taking over

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the pagan myths, taking over the pagan festival, specifically Solen Victus,

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which was on December twenty fifth. By the way, Solen

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Victis is a very late holiday.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you.

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Speaker 1: Probably might have seen other videos debunking this, and so

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I obviously will give you the basics of why this

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is not true, but we're also going to try to

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look at the deeper reasons or the deeper let's say,

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questions that are happening. Why is it that people want

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this to be true, what is motivating this kind of statement,

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and how it is that we can not only fight

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the details in terms of debunking the ridiculous connotation that

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Christmas is the pagan festival, but debunk it in a

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bigger way. That is also debunk the very attitude and

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the very approach which would lead people into saying such

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a thing.

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Speaker 3: Hello there, Well, this is Martin Shaw, and I'm afraid

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whatever you had planned for January scrap it. I am

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returning to Symbolic World gleefully with one of the great

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stories of our time, the Epic of Passable, the story

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of the Holy Grail itself. Over five nights, I will

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be telling the tale. These will not be dry lectures

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or PowerPoint presentations. This will be wild old philosophical storytelling

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in its deepest dimensions. It is life changing stuff, this story.

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I've written a book about it. I've been studying it

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for twenty years. I've told it all over the world,

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but I have not shared it with you. I've not

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shared it with symbolic world. So what else would you

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want to do in the great wintering time but to

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sit at the feet of this wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Story and let me be your guide. I'll see you there.

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This is Jonathan Pejol. Welcome to the Symbolic World.

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Speaker 1: So in the third century, the Emperor Roman, Emperor declared

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a festival on December twenty fifth, which was called Soulenvictis,

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which was the Invincible Sun, and it happened to coincide

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on the date that most Christians thought that Christ was born.

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The way that Christians came to the conclusion that Christ

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was born is one which is not completely in tune

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with modern ways of thinking, but it is nonetheless an

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internal manner by which they calculated this. And the way

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they did was there was a tradition according to which

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Christ had been conceived on the same day that he died.

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That is obviously not on the same year, but of

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the same calendar day that he died.

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Speaker 2: That was the day of the Annunciation, the day that

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Christ was conceived.

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Speaker 1: That is why, for example, in the Catholic and the

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Orthodox tradition, the Annunciation always kind of falls during Lent

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at some point and sometimes even during Holy Week, because

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it is you know, it is originally on the day

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on the year that Christ died. Then it would have

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been the same day as Pasca, the same day as Easter.

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And then if you take that, it's March twenty fifth,

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and then you add nine months you get to December

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twenty fifth, and that is the way that Christians came

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to understand that Christ was born on December twenty fifth.

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It is there in Augustine, it is mentioned in Augustine,

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and then ultimately this is the tradition that gets taken

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up by different Christians. You know, of course, before that,

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Christians celebrated mostly Epiphany or Theophany, which is in January

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and was in some ways a more general feast, which

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was the revelation of the light of Christ. And in

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the feast of Theophany or Epiphany, you have all the

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moments where the divinity of Christ is revealed, and so

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they were celebrated aspects of the nativity, aspects of the

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wise men that come and recognize the Christ child.

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Speaker 2: As being born.

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Speaker 1: And then also baptism, because when Christ was baptized and

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he came out of the water, that is when we

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heard the voice of God, the Father saying this is

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my son. And so it was more of a general

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festival of light and of the revelation of God. But

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then ultimately Christians separated those two feats and decided to

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celebrate the birth of Christ specifically, and because traditionally they

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had accepted that it was on December twenty fifth, that

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is when it ultimately was chosen. Now in the lay

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in the Reformation, there were some movements, especially in the Puritans,

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to criticize that and to start to say that in fact,

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Christmas was not scriptural, and that Christmas was a pagan

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festival because it fell on the same day as the

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Roman festival of Sol Invictus, and it came in the

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same season as the ancient Saturnalia, which were i think

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until December twenty third, and so because of that, they

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tried to connect the celebration of Christmas with a kind

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of carnival, you know, a kind of inversion festival. They

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also tried to connect it with the worship of the Sun,

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as the kind of.

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Speaker 2: The return of the Sun, you could say.

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Speaker 1: And then that criticism got taken up in the Enlightenment,

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and then ultimately got taken up by kind of nineteenth

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century anthropologist and nineteenth century religious in parenthesis thinkers like Fraser,

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who ultimately was trying to frame Christianity as a kind

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of nature religion, as a kind of copying of the

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ancient supposedly.

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Speaker 2: Dying and rising God, and.

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Speaker 1: That ultimately the celebration of Christmas was related to the

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solstice and the return of the Sun and all of that,

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you know. And what's fascinating about this is that it's

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technically false, Like it's just technically false. That is just

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not the reason why Christian chose that date for the

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birth of Christ. But what's interesting is how in fact,

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these Puritans and then ultimately these kind of materialist religious scholars,

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they're onto something. They're onto something there to the fact

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that even though the choosing of the birth of Christ

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was related to the date of his death and the annunciation,

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that why would it surprise us that it would in

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fact fall around the time of the solstice. Because the

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idea of soul invictus, of the kind of victorious sun.

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We also believe that that is true in Christ, that

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the revelation of the incarnate God and you know, as

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a child that will then grow and start to be

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shown more and more. That is what happens. That the solstice,

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that is, the sun is at its lowest point and

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then the sun starts to rise up in the heavens.

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And so the fact that there is a symbolism between

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the solstice and the birth of Christ is not something

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that should scare us.

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Speaker 2: Why should it scare.

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Speaker 1: Us that the way that God created the world, and

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the fact that meaning is deeply ingrained in these great

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cosmic patterns, why would that freak us out? Because it

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connects to Christian symbolism. It's really fascinating because even if

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the Christians had chosen that date for the reason in

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relationship to the solstice, if they had chosen it, you know,

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because they would have come to the conclusion that Christ

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must have been born on the day, you know, around

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the time of the solstice, because He is the true

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rising Sun, and all of these other reasons. You know,

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that would not for that reason make it a pagan holiday.

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Why would it make it a pagan holiday? Because God

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is the one who created the world. These great cosmic

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patterns that the Pagans did notice and that the Pagans

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did celebrate, are nonetheless also the language that God has

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used to create the world. They are the words of

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God inscribed in natural processes. They are not evil, they

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are not you know, they are not perverse on their own.

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They can be perverted, they can come to serve evil.

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But isn't it the job or isn't it one of

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the great things that Christians can do, which is to

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turn that symbolism towards you know, towards the good. And

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then after that, then you can understand that all of

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the ways in which people have then started to say

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that the different aspects of the Christmas traditions that got

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celebrated in different places, that these are pagan You know,

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you have people saying that the Christmas tree is a

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pagan image. You know that it's what they're ancient pagans.

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You know, they decorated trees around this time. You know

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that the holly, that all of these things are all

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these kind of you know, ancient pagan traditions. And what

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it shows is that in fact Christianity is just basically

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paganism with you know, a little bit of a Christian

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veneer on top.

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Speaker 2: And again this is absolutely ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: You know, the idea, for example, of using an evergreen

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tree to represent the the the incarnation of Christ is

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particularly beautiful. The idea that the thing that that survives

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through death, the thing that does not die even though

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everything else around it is dying, you know, the thing

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that maintains light, maintains life in the darkest and coldest moment.

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That that is a beautiful image of Christmas. It's a

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beautiful image of the incarnation. And if you've seen my

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different videos on the symbolism of the Christmas Tree and

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on these different symbolism, you'll see that the very way

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that the Christmas Tree is decorated with the star at

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the top and the gifts at the bottom, and you know,

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the all of the ornaments all along, is a beautiful

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cosmic image of the revelation of God. And it's connected

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directly to the story of the Nativity, with having either

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a star or an angel at the top of the tree,

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because that is what happened at the time of the

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birth of Christ. That is, a star or an angel

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appeared to the shepherds or to the wise men and

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then announced the birth of Christ, announced this great gift.

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And you can imagine, like all the decoration in the

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tree as the myriads of angels, the miads of the

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of the choir of Heaven that is singing the glory

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of this moment, is revealing the glory of this moment.

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There are all of these other all of these these

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aspects that you can understand that what you realize is

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that what you're facing when you see these kinds of

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arguments is actually a kind of reductionism. But you're facing

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in the type of argument that would say that a

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Christmas tree is pagan, or that this or that aspect

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is pagan, or Christmas candles are pagan, or all of

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these types of practices that people have during Christmas that

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they're pagan, or gift giving or all of this stuff,

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that it's pagan. What you're dealing with is not paganism.

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What you're dealing with is a opposition that is formulated

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in reductionism.

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Speaker 2: That is, there is this idea, this.

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Speaker 1: Kind of enlightenment idea that in fact Christianity moves away

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from ritual, that Christianity in fact is more secular. You

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could say in its practices that it has to do

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only with ethics, that it has to do only with morality,

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and that you have to de mythologize Christianity and get

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rid of all of these superstitious practices and these externals

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and get you know, only to the relationship of the heart.

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Speaker 2: That is what you're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: You're not actually dealing with questions of Christianity or paganism.

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And so the same types of people that would say that,

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for example, the Christmas tree is pagan and that all

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of these things are pagan. Would probably say that all

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the different aspects of the liturgy are also taken from

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pagan things that you know, the staff of the bishop

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is just a sorcerers an ancient sorcerer's ron taken from.

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Speaker 2: This or that.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of if you know about chick comics, that's

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how chick comics takes it. They take anything that looks symbolic,

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anything that has, you know, a deeper meaning, and then

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would do is they reduce it to a kind of

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superstition and they call on it as being pagan because

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obviously Christians, what they did was to remove all of

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those external things and to only exist in the heart.

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But that is just simply not true. That is, that

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is not how Christians acted. That is not how Christians

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acted from the beginning, and it is certainly not how

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Christians acted as they kind of took over Europe and

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became the.

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Speaker 2: Leading culture in Europe.

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Speaker 1: What they did is that they developed traditions that were

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making the world meaningful and was making the world in

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a shape that would help us remember and help us celebrate,

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and help us participate in these important feats and in

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these important aspects, and so even then we could say, like,

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is it possible that maybe some of these aspects would

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have been stolen or taken from the pre Christian societies,

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And the answer is yeah, yeah, probably Is that a problem.

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The answer is no, it is not a problem at all.

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It is not a problem. And what's interesting, what's super

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interesting about that, is that someone who someone who for example,

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would object to these kinds of traditions might be the

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same kind of person that doesn't have a problem with

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Christian rock and roll or doesn't have a problem with,

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you know, a band in their church playing a guitar,

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bass and drum, you know, and because that is not

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something that comes from within the Christian esthetic, you know.

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And so what Christians would do is that they would

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take certain things that they could be transformed and could

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be made into a shape that could participate in the

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Christian story, whether they're taken from from pagan sources or

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sometimes they're just taken from Christian sources. That is, different

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legends or different people that have insights about, you know,

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things that we can do in order to remember and

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to celebrate and to celebrate rate the Christian feast. And

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this is of course true about so many things it's

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true about people, the way people talk about Halloween, the

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way that people talk about Easter. You know, until, for example,

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the idea, for example, that at Easter there's a bunny

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that lays eggs. It's like, is that a pagan story?

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And the answer is, it's not a pagan story. It's

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a story about spring. And you know, it's a story

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about reproduction and fertility and and and the kind of

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the awakening of that aspect of the world in spring.

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And you might ask yourself, is that pagan? Well, what

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are you talking about? How is fertility pagan? You know,

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this idea that fertility, anything that's related to fertility, or

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anything that's related to reproduction, that that is necessarily pagan

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because obviously Christians don't have babies, Christians don't have sex,

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Christians don't don't participate in fertility.

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Speaker 2: It's all very ridiculous, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and and so I think that we just have

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to dradically change the way that we think about these things.

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Speaker 2: And realize that.

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Speaker 1: All these modes of participations, all these images that are

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projected sometimes that they have no author you know, they

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just kind of happen. Sometimes we have to be careful

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the place that they take. Obviously, nobody should. Nobody should

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have an icon of the Easter Bunny in the church,

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and nobody should, you know, I don't know, you know,

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have an Easter hunt inside the church, like an egg

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hunt inside the church, and they are all these you know,

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you have to obviously find the right hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: You know, for example, I.

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Speaker 1: Think it's fine to have a Christmas tree in the church.

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Don't put it in the altar though, you know, you

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should probably have it either in the narthex or maybe

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somewhere in the knave. That's a little chucked aside. And

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so you just have to basically find the right place

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for all of these traditions and all of these kinds

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of things that we do.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that they're pagan.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they're evil, doesn't mean that they're twisted,

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and it certainly doesn't mean that they are superstitious. And so,

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you know, if you have felt in your you know,

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some kind of unease about these things, some kind of

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an ease about the way in which we celebrate these holidays,

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and you have taken seriously these ridiculous accusations that they

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are pagan somehow, first of all. Most of the time

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that is technically false. And one of the things that it's

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really important, by the way, one of the things to

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really understand is that it is often very technically false.

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It is often a kind of you could say, speculation

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on the part of these thinkers because they don't have

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access to those pagan cultures. Those pagan cultures didn't have writing,

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those pagan cultures didn't have any kind of documentation, and

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so the idea that these traditions would come from pagan

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cultures is pure, absolute, pure speculation. There is no way

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that they have access to the pre Christian Europe, you know,

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as if they could, they could see into the fourth

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century in Gaul, or they could see you know, into

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the sixth or seventh century or eighth century in Scandinavia.

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This is absolute madness, you know, it's pure speculation. All

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we have are the things we have, and so we

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have to see them for the meaning that they possess

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and what it is that they're manifesting, and that is

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really truly what matters. And so, you know, do not

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hesitate to celebrate these holidays, you know, do not hesitate

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to participate in these kinds of images, because most of

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them are quite beautiful, and they're especially beautiful if they

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are in their proper place, and they are they are

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put in the proper uh, their proper participation in the

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in the great hierarchy of images that we participate in

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to celebrate the birth of Christ and all of the

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other Christian holidays.

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Speaker 2: So I hope this was a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit of a rant, a little bit of a

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uh you know something that I sometimes I think that

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it's over, that we don't, that we're done with these

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kind of ridiculous arguments about Christianity and Easter and Christmas

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and paganism. But hopefully this will also help you if

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you still have doubts on that subject.

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Speaker 2: So thanks everyone.

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Speaker 1: I hope you all have a merry Christmas and I'll

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talk to you very soon.

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Speaker 2: Bye bye.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

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the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

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