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Every 25 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:29.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:34.200 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 27 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.040 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 28 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:50.400 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 29 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:53.120 program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime 30 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:58.480 history and the authors that have written about them. Crimes 31 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.400 of Charles Manson, Ted Bund, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, 32 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.560 and other high high profile killers are so breathtakingly awful 33 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.080 that most people would label them evil. Renowned psychiatrist doctor 34 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:16.039 Michael H. Stone, host of Discovery Channel's former series Most Evil, 35 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:19.520 uses this as his starting point to explore the concept 36 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.560 and reality of evil from a new perspective. Basing his 37 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:27.360 analysis on the detailed biographies of more than six hundred 38 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:33.520 violent criminals, doctor Stone has created a twenty two level 39 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.960 hierarchy of evil behavior, loosely reflecting the structure of Dante's Inferno. 40 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.240 He traces two salient personality traits that run the gamut 41 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.960 from those who commit crimes of passion to perpetrators of 42 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:52.080 the worst crimes, sadistic torture and murder. One trade is narcissism, 43 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.759 as exhibited in people who are so self centered that 44 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:57.360 they have little or no ability to care about their victims. 45 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.439 The other is aggression, the use of power for another 46 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:07.360 person to inflict humiliation, suffering, and death. What do psychology, psychiatry, 47 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.400 and neuroscience tell us about the minds of those ascribed 48 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.960 as evil and what will that mean for the rest 49 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.840 of us. The book that we're discussing this evening is 50 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:19.719 The Anatomy of Evil with my special guest, journalist and 51 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:24.159 author and professor, doctor Michael H. Stone. Welcome to the program, 52 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:28.400 and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Doctor Michael H. Stone. 53 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.000 Thank you so thank you very much for agreeing to 54 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:39.479 this interview. Now, doctor tell us a little bit about 55 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:44.639 your background and just briefly, and then tell us why 56 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.439 you wanted, you were compelled to or why you were 57 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.479 very interested in writing this book in particular and creating 58 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.800 this hierarchy of level, hierarchy of evil. 59 00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:01.199 Pardon me, well, I started out after I graduated psychiatry 60 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:05.759 training at Columbia as a psychoanalyst. But then I had 61 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:08.879 always been interested in personality disorders, which was one of 62 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.000 the specialties of the unit that I was working on there, 63 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:18.120 and then I got into after a while, the more 64 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:25.120 the more darker and Carrie personality disorders. I started out 65 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:29.319 with a concentrating on borderline personality disorder, which is a 66 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.519 kind of a combination of mood disorder and a lot 67 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:36.480 of impulsivity and self damaging acts self destructiveness. But then 68 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.040 I would be hired to be an expert witness in 69 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:45.040 cases where somebody was considered borderline or maybe antisocial or 70 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.079 narcissistic or whatever. And then I got invited to be 71 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.600 an expert witness in the murder case that involved Jeffrey MacDonald, 72 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.519 the Army Green Brave fellow in the late seventies that 73 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:02.000 killed his pregnant wife and his two daughters. And I 74 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.839 wanted to have some way of showing the jury out 75 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:11.000 in California where that particular crime fit in what I 76 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.959 call the grand scheme of man's inhumanity to man, which 77 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.560 I subsequently shortened to just calling it evil. And so 78 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.279 I began to say, well, it's a lot worse than 79 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:30.079 Gene Harris when she killed the diet doctor Hermanternauer, who 80 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.040 jilted her when she and he were having a love 81 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.920 affair that was a crime of passion, but it was 82 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:39.639 not nearly as awful as what Ian Brady out in 83 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.040 England was doing with his girlfriend Myra Henley, who were 84 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:49.199 luring young girls and boys to obscure places in the 85 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:54.920 moors in England, strangling them, and then while while Ian 86 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.399 was strangling them, recording the screams on a tape recorder 87 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.600 to use later as a kind of sexual aphrodisiac between 88 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.879 him and Myron. I thought, well, that's that's about as 89 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:08.120 low as it gets. So that was, at that point 90 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.920 the opposite end of the of the scale. But I 91 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.879 didn't divide it into so many fractions at that time 92 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.199 because I was only just beginning to read and those 93 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.120 true crime books at which I've now read even more 94 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.279 than six hundred. So as time went on, I began 95 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:27.079 to see if I could put them in different subgroups. 96 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:29.800 In other words, were the men that killed their wives 97 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.720 where they have a different breed than the others? Were 98 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.519 the guys that committed mass murder like what we've seen 99 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.480 lately last year with the Jared Lufner in Arizona and 100 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:44.319 James Holmes, And were they have a different personality stripe? 101 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.040 Did they have different backgrounds. Were they mentally ill? Were 102 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.319 they not mentally ill? And what about the serial killers? 103 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.040 So I began then to make these partitions. That's how 104 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:54.759 it got started. 105 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.279 Now you go back in history, because obviously we have 106 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:06.519 a definition in our minds what evil is now, but 107 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:11.879 obviously people had a lot more religiosity of confusing the 108 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.399 definition or the issue itself. So tell us how far 109 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:19.160 back you go in history and what you found about evil, 110 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:23.160 and just tell us how the word evil has evolved 111 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:24.639 over the centuries. 112 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:29.839 Yes, well, the first uses of it. Ten. First of all, 113 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:33.959 there was like the good and the bad. Even the 114 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.759 people in person, the Zoroastrians in the two thousand BC, 115 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.920 or some people think a little bit later, had the 116 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.759 idea of a good god, and that was a hura Mazda. 117 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.879 By the way, when you turn on a light bulb 118 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.279 and Masda light bulb is because the Masda was the 119 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:54.639 god of light anyway, and Achriman he was the bad god, 120 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:57.399 the god of the and just like God and Satan. 121 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:01.879 So there was that idea of polarities between good and bad, 122 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:07.759 and bad and evil got used together often in a 123 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.839 very similar way. However, the whole topic seemed to be 124 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.639 something that was appropriate only to be in the out 125 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.720 of the mouths of philosophers and religious adepts, as if 126 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.959 they knew or about what evil was, and common people 127 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:29.920 were not considered a reliable source of definition. But as 128 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:34.720 you know, and that went on century after century. I mean, 129 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.840 Saint Thomas had his views, and the great philosophers, and 130 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.440 then during the Enlightenment they had their use. They used 131 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.159 the word evil, but they were they used it in 132 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.639 a rather vague way. They didn't get down to cases. 133 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:52.159 You can read Kant, and you can read Hobbes, and 134 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.480 you can read but you don't get down to individual 135 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.679 persons who personify the concept they were talking about. So 136 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:02.919 it's kind of an airy concept. But nevertheless, I noticed 137 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:07.919 that people in everyday life use the word. Journalists use 138 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.919 the word. Prosecutors use the word. Judges use the word, 139 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:14.960 and they use it to describe when you think about 140 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:18.480 it and the emotion. It's an emotional word because when 141 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:21.679 you hear about something that horrifies you, shocks you, and 142 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.000 makes you sick even to hear about it, you have 143 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.399 a tendency to say, oh, and you you're there's a 144 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.559 change in your facial expression. As a matter of fact, 145 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.200 I was talking about that with a patient of mind 146 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.679 today and I mentioned this case of China Arnold, a 147 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:42.840 woman who when her new boyfriend objected to the mess 148 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.919 and bother of the baby she had by a previous boyfriend, 149 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.519 so she put it in a microwave. Now it's just 150 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:54.440 he was just aghast at that, and of course the 151 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.320 word evil came tumbling out of his mouth. Said, my God, 152 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:00.559 that's what an evil thing to do. U. So I 153 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.480 use that as my way of thinking about evil because 154 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:06.679 that gets down to earth in a very practical way, 155 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.200 and it makes it easier for me to talk about 156 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.039 it rather than getting all wound up. And if God 157 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:14.919 is good, then how can you allow evil and all 158 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:19.039 that sort of thing that the old philosophers tried to untangle. 159 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:25.200 So, as part of still a throwback from the very beginning, 160 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:29.000 really you have to include with your definition any definition 161 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:35.399 of evil is breathtakingly horrible and something that would shock 162 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.279 a community a degree of suffering. But really, the just 163 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.159 something that would shock a community is the sort of 164 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:50.200 something right from the very very beginning, was used at 165 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.759 least ideally as a word for a definition for evil. 166 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:57.320 Yes, the word evil, don't forget it. It comes from 167 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:01.240 the Anglo Saxon word why e l, which happens to 168 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.039 be pronounced evil the same way. And it's related to 169 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.879 the German word uber, which means above and over and 170 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:12.039 uber bad or, and so that it's a it's a 171 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:16.000 cousin word. We're having to do with with beyond over 172 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:19.279 the top. In other words, it's beyond if you think 173 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:24.320 about things which are socially acceptable or socially endurable, and 174 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.840 then there are acts which are way beyond what the 175 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.399 social contract permits. So that that idea of over the 176 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.080 top is embedded in the word evil. It's something excessive, 177 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:40.000 way way over what would be tolerable. 178 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.039 Yes, you say in the book that there's always has 179 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:47.879 to be the element of excess and a deviation from 180 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:54.000 standards and norms. So tell us the four the four 181 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.120 that the four issues that you have are four distinctions 182 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:07.879 that you have to truly just first off, define evil, well, 183 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:10.840 I have it in front of me. 184 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:15.200 If you don't, so, okay, of course, the idea of 185 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:19.279 being horrifyingly awful, I think that was a key element. 186 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:20.960 What are some of the things that you had. 187 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.879 But breathtakingly horrible is number one? And number two, you 188 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:31.240 have malice afterthought, which is evil intention, which usually which 189 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.519 usually would precede the act. And number three, you'd have 190 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.559 the degree of suffering inflicted will be wildly again excessive, 191 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.879 and for the nature of the act will will appear 192 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:49.039 incomprehensible bewildering over and beyond the imagination of ordinary people 193 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:50.399 in the community. 194 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.759 Yes, well, I'll give you an example from just a 195 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:59.879 couple of days ago. Another person I know uh sent 196 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:05.399 me a copy of something from a Brazilian newspaper having 197 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.240 to do with a dispute. The dispute is a very 198 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.039 soft word to describe what happened in a soccer game. 199 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.000 It was an amateur soccer game between a couple of 200 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.840 teams up in Motagneo in the northern part of Brazil. 201 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.720 So the referee tried to eject a particular player named 202 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.600 Abreu from the game, I don't know for what reason exactly, 203 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.440 and the guy got very angry at the referee. So 204 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.840 the referee pulled out a knife and stabbed him, and 205 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:38.679 the man died. And when the man died on the 206 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:44.240 way to the hospital, the Avereau family stormed the field 207 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.559 and they captured this referee. It was a twenty year 208 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:55.360 old fellow. They beat him, they stoned him, they lynched him, 209 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.039 they cut off his legs and arm, then in his 210 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:07.279 head and then that was that. So that is, first 211 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:10.759 of all horrifying. As a matter of fact, I was 212 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.759 speechless when I when I saw Usually I'm so used 213 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.200 to hearing about these things. I have some kind of 214 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.120 witty gallows humor thing to say, but this one just 215 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.120 comes me short. And you can even see the video 216 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:26.919 on the of the poor guy on the gurney in 217 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:30.960 the hospital. It's just awful, So that that is and 218 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.639 it's just it's breathtaking, and you wonder how God's name 219 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.799 can a person do that to another. So it really 220 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.480 fulfills all those criteria that you mentioned. 221 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.240 Mm hmm. Do you think to a certain degree just 222 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.200 I mean, this is a little off topic, but I 223 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.440 just thought I have you here. Do you really think 224 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.600 or do you think that despite the media attention that 225 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.519 some people claim that that's all it is, is there 226 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:04.440 an escalation by is there seemed to be some some 227 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:09.080 unofficial competition, but in terms of escalation or in terms 228 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.919 of degree of severity, in terms of what we would 229 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.480 call humiliation. Now that with the ability with Facebook and 230 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.879 some of these things, you know, YouTube or whatever you're 231 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.279 going to put yourself on these days to promote your 232 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:27.799 your psychopathic alter ego or your character, or your crimes 233 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.320 or the fame that you might derive from it. Do 234 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.559 you really think do you think that there has been 235 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.120 an escalation and there is an escalation in crime or 236 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:37.279 the sparity of crime. 237 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.559 Yeah, I do. I've been getting together a PowerPoint presentation 238 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.519 and I've been in touch with some TV producers in 239 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.639 the last few weeks, and in order to show them 240 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:51.720 what I had in mind, I made a PowerPoint presentation 241 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.879 with about almost sixty slides. And when I called it 242 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:59.320 the New Evil, because I began to notice that the 243 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:06.679 really the particularly gruesome crimes were occurring predominantly from the 244 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:12.440 middle nineteen sixties on, and there were now and then 245 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.919 occasionally some pretty grim and gruesome crimes of course before 246 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:23.000 and mind you, we're always talking peacetime criminals, not wartime atrocities. 247 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.240 For instance, in nineteen six is the famous so called 248 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.480 crime of the Century case of Chester Gillette that got 249 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.960 his girlfriend pregnant and didn't want to be responsible, so 250 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.080 he offered her to take her for a ride and 251 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.799 the boat and the lake up here in the Adirondacks, 252 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.360 and then dumped her in the water and drowned her. 253 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.799 And that was pretty awful, but it has nothing to 254 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.960 do with decapitating her or gouging her eyes out or 255 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.799 anything of that sort. So what she began to see 256 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:57.440 in the sixties is much more gruesome crimes, and you 257 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:03.080 saw mass murderers. There were always a few mass murderers, 258 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.559 and I have a very large excel file spreadsheet of 259 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:14.519 mass murderers, almost three hundred starting from nineteen hundred, but 260 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.839 from between nineteen hundred and nineteen ten there's a couple examples, 261 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:20.839 and then the next decade and so on. But once 262 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.880 you get to the late sixties and seventies, it begins 263 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:28.480 to take off at a greater rate than the American 264 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:35.960 population increased. Serial killers again very very rare. A few 265 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.759 in the nineteenth century, a few like Albert Fish and 266 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.839 they cannibalized and cut up a couple of children. In 267 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.640 the twenties, a few other people of that sort. But 268 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:51.079 then it begins to spike in the sixties and peaks 269 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.160 in the nineteen eighties. Now it's maybe even dropped off 270 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.400 a bit, and it seems to be a response in 271 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:01.319 the case of serial killers, to the among a number 272 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.640 of social factors at the high divorce rate in the 273 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.880 sixties in our country, the feminist movement that allowed a 274 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.960 lot of women to leave and divorce from men that 275 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:15.319 would be battering them, so that the kind of women 276 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:19.759 that were stuck in the very uncomfortable home situations in 277 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.599 the old days, now they could leave. But that meant 278 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:27.359 that these rather violent and aggressive men lost their woman 279 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.440 and they weren't taking it lined down. So some of 280 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.880 the serial killers Gary Ridgeway, for example, the Green River killer, 281 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.559 had a lot of vengeful attitudes toward women that they 282 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.880 took out in these serial rate murders. And then this 283 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:45.160 woman I just mentioned it was stuck in her own 284 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:50.119 baby in a microwave. For God's sakes, I grew up. 285 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.000 I never saw stuff like that when I was a kid, 286 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.400 even when I was in medical school. That's to me 287 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:02.200 rather new. And you know, back in eighty seven, there 288 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.000 was this woman out in New Mexico that told her boyfriend, 289 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:07.759 you got to marry me because you know, I'm pregnant 290 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.440 and so on. But actually she was not. So as 291 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.920 the time grew near and he was like, so many 292 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.079 men dumb enough not even to notice her belly wasn't 293 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.799 getting very big, or she'd even maybe put a little 294 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.440 extra maybe a sweater in there, and they could look 295 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.680 as if she was having a bit of a tummy. 296 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:31.599 She went to a obgyn clinic in Albuquerque, and she 297 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.480 at gunpoint kidnapped a woman nine months pregnant woman who 298 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.200 was coming out of the clinic. She then took her 299 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.240 in her car, drove her to a remote spot, and 300 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.519 then proceeded to rip open her belly with a key 301 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.480 and steal the fetus and then presented to her boyfriend 302 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:55.960 as oci here's the baby. That's It's extremely shocking and 303 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.440 it was never any crime like that before nineteen eighty seven, 304 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.880 and since there's been a dozen and a half, including 305 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.200 Lisa Montgomery. That was a very high profile case about 306 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:07.960 five years ago in Missouri. 307 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.200 I think the quarter first program. I yeah, the very 308 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.640 first program I did was with Diane Fanning and it 309 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.759 was baby be Mine And it was someone befriended someone 310 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:24.559 through you know, social networking and and and the unrespecting 311 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.599 mother to be was posting stuff about her birth and 312 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.240 this woman was pretending always wanted to be pregnant faked 313 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.319 it with her family somehow, or rather carved the baby. 314 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:40.319 The baby lived, she foisted door, or tried to fool 315 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:44.039 the family and this and a husband and children that 316 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.400 this was the baby, and succeeded for a few days. 317 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:48.799 But and you know, when you find out what's really 318 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.079 odd is again there's you think that's that's incredible. But 319 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.799 oh yeah, there's been a half dozen of them since then. 320 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.519 So yeah, So, as I said to me, that represents 321 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.880 a kind of a coarsening and selfishness on a much 322 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.799 more extreme plane then I was used to seeing in 323 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.279 the crimes that I grew up with, where even the 324 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:15.880 kidnappers would kidnap a kid, post a ransom amount. Maybe 325 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.359 the parents would then pay the ransom amount, they get 326 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:20.480 their kid back. Sometimes they didn't get their kid back, 327 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.599 but it was not done in a way with the 328 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.960 kind of brutality or the horror that we see now, 329 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.799 like with this fellow Ariel Castro in Cleveland that kidnapped 330 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:36.920 those three poor girls for ten years, or Garrito that 331 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.680 kept Chasey du guard for eighteen years and had two 332 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.200 kids buy her out in California. 333 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.759 Or you have the case that will come to trial 334 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:54.119 next year in Montreal, Luca Manata, yes name, it was 335 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.640 even his own name, live murder online and then post 336 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.559 and other. Part of the phenomenon is is that I've 337 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:07.519 never seen more response to anybody doing anything. He's got followers, 338 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.680 some satanic followers, some just friends, some just want to 339 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:13.960 have sex with him, but definitely a lot of followers 340 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:17.119 and incredible I don't know how many people, but a 341 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.160 credible amount of people watch that video. So it's a 342 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:22.200 new way to humiliate. It's a new way. 343 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:24.240 Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you 344 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.000 know this about me, but I'm a bit of a 345 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.000 fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but 346 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:30.200 I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the 347 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:32.119 truth is out there, I can tell you about my 348 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.559 favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. 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And I think it's 373 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.000 like anybody, like a musician now might go back twenty 374 00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:43.440 years that some of these guys have been romanticized or 375 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:48.000 even or just they're infamous Bundy Gacy, Dahmer, and so 376 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.079 some people are influenced. And I've seen that personally myself, 377 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.400 and that some of these guys really look up to 378 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:55.680 them as sort of role models and want that kind 379 00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:57.960 of fame for themselves eras. 380 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.960 Or some of these, the idea of fame and Andy 381 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:04.960 Warhol saying each got our fifteen minutes of fame. I 382 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.640 mean Magnona, well that was not his original name. But 383 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:12.200 the point is he did something that I don't think 384 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.599 anyone ever has done before, was just to mail some 385 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.400 of the dismembered parts to officials in the Canadian government 386 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.359 for God's sakes. I mean, yeah, It's like if you 387 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.920 were writing a novel, a pulp novel for money, and 388 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.200 we wanted to put a lot of gruesome things in it, 389 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:31.759 I suspect you couldn't make up. You wouldn't be novelistic 390 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:34.920 enough to make up some of the stuff that happens 391 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.319 out there now on an almost weekly basis. 392 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.680 Yeah, yeah, it is. It is amazing. Well I'm glad 393 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:44.799 you said that, because I've had so many answers from 394 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.640 people to say, oh, no, no, no, the media is 395 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.319 just reporting on it more. And I don't know where 396 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.759 I've been all these years, but the media always report 397 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.440 on it. In fact, they reported on it a lot more. 398 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.480 I grew up with no one he murders, No one 399 00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:02.480 hides murders. Yeah they might hide. Still, it always perse snatching, 400 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:03.160 but not murder. 401 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.119