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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 5: history and the authors that have written about them. Crimes
Speaker 5: of Charles Manson, Ted Bund, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 5: and other high high profile killers are so breathtakingly awful
Speaker 5: that most people would label them evil. Renowned psychiatrist doctor
Speaker 5: Michael H. Stone, host of Discovery Channel's former series Most Evil,
Speaker 5: uses this as his starting point to explore the concept
Speaker 5: and reality of evil from a new perspective. Basing his
Speaker 5: analysis on the detailed biographies of more than six hundred
Speaker 5: violent criminals, doctor Stone has created a twenty two level
Speaker 5: hierarchy of evil behavior, loosely reflecting the structure of Dante's Inferno.
Speaker 5: He traces two salient personality traits that run the gamut
Speaker 5: from those who commit crimes of passion to perpetrators of
Speaker 5: the worst crimes, sadistic torture and murder. One trade is narcissism,
Speaker 5: as exhibited in people who are so self centered that
Speaker 5: they have little or no ability to care about their victims.
Speaker 5: The other is aggression, the use of power for another
Speaker 5: person to inflict humiliation, suffering, and death. What do psychology, psychiatry,
Speaker 5: and neuroscience tell us about the minds of those ascribed
Speaker 5: as evil and what will that mean for the rest
Speaker 5: of us. The book that we're discussing this evening is
Speaker 5: The Anatomy of Evil with my special guest, journalist and
Speaker 5: author and professor, doctor Michael H. Stone. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 5: and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Doctor Michael H. Stone.
Speaker 5: Thank you so thank you very much for agreeing to
Speaker 5: this interview. Now, doctor tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: your background and just briefly, and then tell us why
Speaker 5: you wanted, you were compelled to or why you were
Speaker 5: very interested in writing this book in particular and creating
Speaker 5: this hierarchy of level, hierarchy of evil.
Speaker 6: Pardon me, well, I started out after I graduated psychiatry
Speaker 6: training at Columbia as a psychoanalyst. But then I had
Speaker 6: always been interested in personality disorders, which was one of
Speaker 6: the specialties of the unit that I was working on there,
Speaker 6: and then I got into after a while, the more
Speaker 6: the more darker and Carrie personality disorders. I started out
Speaker 6: with a concentrating on borderline personality disorder, which is a
Speaker 6: kind of a combination of mood disorder and a lot
Speaker 6: of impulsivity and self damaging acts self destructiveness. But then
Speaker 6: I would be hired to be an expert witness in
Speaker 6: cases where somebody was considered borderline or maybe antisocial or
Speaker 6: narcissistic or whatever. And then I got invited to be
Speaker 6: an expert witness in the murder case that involved Jeffrey MacDonald,
Speaker 6: the Army Green Brave fellow in the late seventies that
Speaker 6: killed his pregnant wife and his two daughters. And I
Speaker 6: wanted to have some way of showing the jury out
Speaker 6: in California where that particular crime fit in what I
Speaker 6: call the grand scheme of man's inhumanity to man, which
Speaker 6: I subsequently shortened to just calling it evil. And so
Speaker 6: I began to say, well, it's a lot worse than
Speaker 6: Gene Harris when she killed the diet doctor Hermanternauer, who
Speaker 6: jilted her when she and he were having a love
Speaker 6: affair that was a crime of passion, but it was
Speaker 6: not nearly as awful as what Ian Brady out in
Speaker 6: England was doing with his girlfriend Myra Henley, who were
Speaker 6: luring young girls and boys to obscure places in the
Speaker 6: moors in England, strangling them, and then while while Ian
Speaker 6: was strangling them, recording the screams on a tape recorder
Speaker 6: to use later as a kind of sexual aphrodisiac between
Speaker 6: him and Myron. I thought, well, that's that's about as
Speaker 6: low as it gets. So that was, at that point
Speaker 6: the opposite end of the of the scale. But I
Speaker 6: didn't divide it into so many fractions at that time
Speaker 6: because I was only just beginning to read and those
Speaker 6: true crime books at which I've now read even more
Speaker 6: than six hundred. So as time went on, I began
Speaker 6: to see if I could put them in different subgroups.
Speaker 6: In other words, were the men that killed their wives
Speaker 6: where they have a different breed than the others? Were
Speaker 6: the guys that committed mass murder like what we've seen
Speaker 6: lately last year with the Jared Lufner in Arizona and
Speaker 6: James Holmes, And were they have a different personality stripe?
Speaker 6: Did they have different backgrounds. Were they mentally ill? Were
Speaker 6: they not mentally ill? And what about the serial killers?
Speaker 6: So I began then to make these partitions. That's how
Speaker 6: it got started.
Speaker 5: Now you go back in history, because obviously we have
Speaker 5: a definition in our minds what evil is now, but
Speaker 5: obviously people had a lot more religiosity of confusing the
Speaker 5: definition or the issue itself. So tell us how far
Speaker 5: back you go in history and what you found about evil,
Speaker 5: and just tell us how the word evil has evolved
Speaker 5: over the centuries.
Speaker 6: Yes, well, the first uses of it. Ten. First of all,
Speaker 6: there was like the good and the bad. Even the
Speaker 6: people in person, the Zoroastrians in the two thousand BC,
Speaker 6: or some people think a little bit later, had the
Speaker 6: idea of a good god, and that was a hura Mazda.
Speaker 6: By the way, when you turn on a light bulb
Speaker 6: and Masda light bulb is because the Masda was the
Speaker 6: god of light anyway, and Achriman he was the bad god,
Speaker 6: the god of the and just like God and Satan.
Speaker 6: So there was that idea of polarities between good and bad,
Speaker 6: and bad and evil got used together often in a
Speaker 6: very similar way. However, the whole topic seemed to be
Speaker 6: something that was appropriate only to be in the out
Speaker 6: of the mouths of philosophers and religious adepts, as if
Speaker 6: they knew or about what evil was, and common people
Speaker 6: were not considered a reliable source of definition. But as
Speaker 6: you know, and that went on century after century. I mean,
Speaker 6: Saint Thomas had his views, and the great philosophers, and
Speaker 6: then during the Enlightenment they had their use. They used
Speaker 6: the word evil, but they were they used it in
Speaker 6: a rather vague way. They didn't get down to cases.
Speaker 6: You can read Kant, and you can read Hobbes, and
Speaker 6: you can read but you don't get down to individual
Speaker 6: persons who personify the concept they were talking about. So
Speaker 6: it's kind of an airy concept. But nevertheless, I noticed
Speaker 6: that people in everyday life use the word. Journalists use
Speaker 6: the word. Prosecutors use the word. Judges use the word,
Speaker 6: and they use it to describe when you think about
Speaker 6: it and the emotion. It's an emotional word because when
Speaker 6: you hear about something that horrifies you, shocks you, and
Speaker 6: makes you sick even to hear about it, you have
Speaker 6: a tendency to say, oh, and you you're there's a
Speaker 6: change in your facial expression. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 6: I was talking about that with a patient of mind
Speaker 6: today and I mentioned this case of China Arnold, a
Speaker 6: woman who when her new boyfriend objected to the mess
Speaker 6: and bother of the baby she had by a previous boyfriend,
Speaker 6: so she put it in a microwave. Now it's just
Speaker 6: he was just aghast at that, and of course the
Speaker 6: word evil came tumbling out of his mouth. Said, my God,
Speaker 6: that's what an evil thing to do. U. So I
Speaker 6: use that as my way of thinking about evil because
Speaker 6: that gets down to earth in a very practical way,
Speaker 6: and it makes it easier for me to talk about
Speaker 6: it rather than getting all wound up. And if God
Speaker 6: is good, then how can you allow evil and all
Speaker 6: that sort of thing that the old philosophers tried to untangle.
Speaker 5: So, as part of still a throwback from the very beginning,
Speaker 5: really you have to include with your definition any definition
Speaker 5: of evil is breathtakingly horrible and something that would shock
Speaker 5: a community a degree of suffering. But really, the just
Speaker 5: something that would shock a community is the sort of
Speaker 5: something right from the very very beginning, was used at
Speaker 5: least ideally as a word for a definition for evil.
Speaker 6: Yes, the word evil, don't forget it. It comes from
Speaker 6: the Anglo Saxon word why e l, which happens to
Speaker 6: be pronounced evil the same way. And it's related to
Speaker 6: the German word uber, which means above and over and
Speaker 6: uber bad or, and so that it's a it's a
Speaker 6: cousin word. We're having to do with with beyond over
Speaker 6: the top. In other words, it's beyond if you think
Speaker 6: about things which are socially acceptable or socially endurable, and
Speaker 6: then there are acts which are way beyond what the
Speaker 6: social contract permits. So that that idea of over the
Speaker 6: top is embedded in the word evil. It's something excessive,
Speaker 6: way way over what would be tolerable.
Speaker 5: Yes, you say in the book that there's always has
Speaker 5: to be the element of excess and a deviation from
Speaker 5: standards and norms. So tell us the four the four
Speaker 5: that the four issues that you have are four distinctions
Speaker 5: that you have to truly just first off, define evil, well,
Speaker 5: I have it in front of me.
Speaker 6: If you don't, so, okay, of course, the idea of
Speaker 6: being horrifyingly awful, I think that was a key element.
Speaker 6: What are some of the things that you had.
Speaker 5: But breathtakingly horrible is number one? And number two, you
Speaker 5: have malice afterthought, which is evil intention, which usually which
Speaker 5: usually would precede the act. And number three, you'd have
Speaker 5: the degree of suffering inflicted will be wildly again excessive,
Speaker 5: and for the nature of the act will will appear
Speaker 5: incomprehensible bewildering over and beyond the imagination of ordinary people
Speaker 5: in the community.
Speaker 6: Yes, well, I'll give you an example from just a
Speaker 6: couple of days ago. Another person I know uh sent
Speaker 6: me a copy of something from a Brazilian newspaper having
Speaker 6: to do with a dispute. The dispute is a very
Speaker 6: soft word to describe what happened in a soccer game.
Speaker 6: It was an amateur soccer game between a couple of
Speaker 6: teams up in Motagneo in the northern part of Brazil.
Speaker 6: So the referee tried to eject a particular player named
Speaker 6: Abreu from the game, I don't know for what reason exactly,
Speaker 6: and the guy got very angry at the referee. So
Speaker 6: the referee pulled out a knife and stabbed him, and
Speaker 6: the man died. And when the man died on the
Speaker 6: way to the hospital, the Avereau family stormed the field
Speaker 6: and they captured this referee. It was a twenty year
Speaker 6: old fellow. They beat him, they stoned him, they lynched him,
Speaker 6: they cut off his legs and arm, then in his
Speaker 6: head and then that was that. So that is, first
Speaker 6: of all horrifying. As a matter of fact, I was
Speaker 6: speechless when I when I saw Usually I'm so used
Speaker 6: to hearing about these things. I have some kind of
Speaker 6: witty gallows humor thing to say, but this one just
Speaker 6: comes me short. And you can even see the video
Speaker 6: on the of the poor guy on the gurney in
Speaker 6: the hospital. It's just awful, So that that is and
Speaker 6: it's just it's breathtaking, and you wonder how God's name
Speaker 6: can a person do that to another. So it really
Speaker 6: fulfills all those criteria that you mentioned.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Do you think to a certain degree just
Speaker 5: I mean, this is a little off topic, but I
Speaker 5: just thought I have you here. Do you really think
Speaker 5: or do you think that despite the media attention that
Speaker 5: some people claim that that's all it is, is there
Speaker 5: an escalation by is there seemed to be some some
Speaker 5: unofficial competition, but in terms of escalation or in terms
Speaker 5: of degree of severity, in terms of what we would
Speaker 5: call humiliation. Now that with the ability with Facebook and
Speaker 5: some of these things, you know, YouTube or whatever you're
Speaker 5: going to put yourself on these days to promote your
Speaker 5: your psychopathic alter ego or your character, or your crimes
Speaker 5: or the fame that you might derive from it. Do
Speaker 5: you really think do you think that there has been
Speaker 5: an escalation and there is an escalation in crime or
Speaker 5: the sparity of crime.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do. I've been getting together a PowerPoint presentation
Speaker 6: and I've been in touch with some TV producers in
Speaker 6: the last few weeks, and in order to show them
Speaker 6: what I had in mind, I made a PowerPoint presentation
Speaker 6: with about almost sixty slides. And when I called it
Speaker 6: the New Evil, because I began to notice that the
Speaker 6: really the particularly gruesome crimes were occurring predominantly from the
Speaker 6: middle nineteen sixties on, and there were now and then
Speaker 6: occasionally some pretty grim and gruesome crimes of course before
Speaker 6: and mind you, we're always talking peacetime criminals, not wartime atrocities.
Speaker 6: For instance, in nineteen six is the famous so called
Speaker 6: crime of the Century case of Chester Gillette that got
Speaker 6: his girlfriend pregnant and didn't want to be responsible, so
Speaker 6: he offered her to take her for a ride and
Speaker 6: the boat and the lake up here in the Adirondacks,
Speaker 6: and then dumped her in the water and drowned her.
Speaker 6: And that was pretty awful, but it has nothing to
Speaker 6: do with decapitating her or gouging her eyes out or
Speaker 6: anything of that sort. So what she began to see
Speaker 6: in the sixties is much more gruesome crimes, and you
Speaker 6: saw mass murderers. There were always a few mass murderers,
Speaker 6: and I have a very large excel file spreadsheet of
Speaker 6: mass murderers, almost three hundred starting from nineteen hundred, but
Speaker 6: from between nineteen hundred and nineteen ten there's a couple examples,
Speaker 6: and then the next decade and so on. But once
Speaker 6: you get to the late sixties and seventies, it begins
Speaker 6: to take off at a greater rate than the American
Speaker 6: population increased. Serial killers again very very rare. A few
Speaker 6: in the nineteenth century, a few like Albert Fish and
Speaker 6: they cannibalized and cut up a couple of children. In
Speaker 6: the twenties, a few other people of that sort. But
Speaker 6: then it begins to spike in the sixties and peaks
Speaker 6: in the nineteen eighties. Now it's maybe even dropped off
Speaker 6: a bit, and it seems to be a response in
Speaker 6: the case of serial killers, to the among a number
Speaker 6: of social factors at the high divorce rate in the
Speaker 6: sixties in our country, the feminist movement that allowed a
Speaker 6: lot of women to leave and divorce from men that
Speaker 6: would be battering them, so that the kind of women
Speaker 6: that were stuck in the very uncomfortable home situations in
Speaker 6: the old days, now they could leave. But that meant
Speaker 6: that these rather violent and aggressive men lost their woman
Speaker 6: and they weren't taking it lined down. So some of
Speaker 6: the serial killers Gary Ridgeway, for example, the Green River killer,
Speaker 6: had a lot of vengeful attitudes toward women that they
Speaker 6: took out in these serial rate murders. And then this
Speaker 6: woman I just mentioned it was stuck in her own
Speaker 6: baby in a microwave. For God's sakes, I grew up.
Speaker 6: I never saw stuff like that when I was a kid,
Speaker 6: even when I was in medical school. That's to me
Speaker 6: rather new. And you know, back in eighty seven, there
Speaker 6: was this woman out in New Mexico that told her boyfriend,
Speaker 6: you got to marry me because you know, I'm pregnant
Speaker 6: and so on. But actually she was not. So as
Speaker 6: the time grew near and he was like, so many
Speaker 6: men dumb enough not even to notice her belly wasn't
Speaker 6: getting very big, or she'd even maybe put a little
Speaker 6: extra maybe a sweater in there, and they could look
Speaker 6: as if she was having a bit of a tummy.
Speaker 6: She went to a obgyn clinic in Albuquerque, and she
Speaker 6: at gunpoint kidnapped a woman nine months pregnant woman who
Speaker 6: was coming out of the clinic. She then took her
Speaker 6: in her car, drove her to a remote spot, and
Speaker 6: then proceeded to rip open her belly with a key
Speaker 6: and steal the fetus and then presented to her boyfriend
Speaker 6: as oci here's the baby. That's It's extremely shocking and
Speaker 6: it was never any crime like that before nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 6: and since there's been a dozen and a half, including
Speaker 6: Lisa Montgomery. That was a very high profile case about
Speaker 6: five years ago in Missouri.
Speaker 5: I think the quarter first program. I yeah, the very
Speaker 5: first program I did was with Diane Fanning and it
Speaker 5: was baby be Mine And it was someone befriended someone
Speaker 5: through you know, social networking and and and the unrespecting
Speaker 5: mother to be was posting stuff about her birth and
Speaker 5: this woman was pretending always wanted to be pregnant faked
Speaker 5: it with her family somehow, or rather carved the baby.
Speaker 5: The baby lived, she foisted door, or tried to fool
Speaker 5: the family and this and a husband and children that
Speaker 5: this was the baby, and succeeded for a few days.
Speaker 5: But and you know, when you find out what's really
Speaker 5: odd is again there's you think that's that's incredible. But
Speaker 5: oh yeah, there's been a half dozen of them since then.
Speaker 6: So yeah, So, as I said to me, that represents
Speaker 6: a kind of a coarsening and selfishness on a much
Speaker 6: more extreme plane then I was used to seeing in
Speaker 6: the crimes that I grew up with, where even the
Speaker 6: kidnappers would kidnap a kid, post a ransom amount. Maybe
Speaker 6: the parents would then pay the ransom amount, they get
Speaker 6: their kid back. Sometimes they didn't get their kid back,
Speaker 6: but it was not done in a way with the
Speaker 6: kind of brutality or the horror that we see now,
Speaker 6: like with this fellow Ariel Castro in Cleveland that kidnapped
Speaker 6: those three poor girls for ten years, or Garrito that
Speaker 6: kept Chasey du guard for eighteen years and had two
Speaker 6: kids buy her out in California.
Speaker 5: Or you have the case that will come to trial
Speaker 5: next year in Montreal, Luca Manata, yes name, it was
Speaker 5: even his own name, live murder online and then post
Speaker 5: and other. Part of the phenomenon is is that I've
Speaker 5: never seen more response to anybody doing anything. He's got followers,
Speaker 5: some satanic followers, some just friends, some just want to
Speaker 5: have sex with him, but definitely a lot of followers
Speaker 5: and incredible I don't know how many people, but a
Speaker 5: credible amount of people watch that video. So it's a
Speaker 5: new way to humiliate. It's a new way.
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Speaker 5: To be again psychopathic and narcissistic and again inflict suffering.
Speaker 5: And so it's I think it's an escalation in terms
Speaker 5: of what these guys can do. And I think it's
Speaker 5: like anybody, like a musician now might go back twenty
Speaker 5: years that some of these guys have been romanticized or
Speaker 5: even or just they're infamous Bundy Gacy, Dahmer, and so
Speaker 5: some people are influenced. And I've seen that personally myself,
Speaker 5: and that some of these guys really look up to
Speaker 5: them as sort of role models and want that kind
Speaker 5: of fame for themselves eras.
Speaker 6: Or some of these, the idea of fame and Andy
Speaker 6: Warhol saying each got our fifteen minutes of fame. I
Speaker 6: mean Magnona, well that was not his original name. But
Speaker 6: the point is he did something that I don't think
Speaker 6: anyone ever has done before, was just to mail some
Speaker 6: of the dismembered parts to officials in the Canadian government
Speaker 6: for God's sakes. I mean, yeah, It's like if you
Speaker 6: were writing a novel, a pulp novel for money, and
Speaker 6: we wanted to put a lot of gruesome things in it,
Speaker 6: I suspect you couldn't make up. You wouldn't be novelistic
Speaker 6: enough to make up some of the stuff that happens
Speaker 6: out there now on an almost weekly basis.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is amazing. Well I'm glad
Speaker 5: you said that, because I've had so many answers from
Speaker 5: people to say, oh, no, no, no, the media is
Speaker 5: just reporting on it more. And I don't know where
Speaker 5: I've been all these years, but the media always report
Speaker 5: on it. In fact, they reported on it a lot more.
Speaker 6: I grew up with no one he murders, No one
Speaker 6: hides murders. Yeah they might hide. Still, it always perse snatching,
Speaker 6: but not murder.
Speaker 5: Not every murder appeals and resonates, but some really do.
Speaker 5: And you know, we could talk about that. It's another
Speaker 5: issue too, But certain murders, I mean, you can see
Speaker 5: them dominate television and conversation for a year or more.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 5: Yeah, now getting back to this anatomy of evil, you
Speaker 5: have carefully put this into chapters that you talk about
Speaker 5: evil in peacetime because the and why is it there
Speaker 5: a distinction or why do you why do you make
Speaker 5: the distinction, and why do you feel it's important to
Speaker 5: this system that you've come this system of gradation the
Speaker 5: evil in in peacetime as opposed to say, evil in wartime.
Speaker 6: Well, in war time, very ordinary people can be conscripted
Speaker 6: into an army or some group that is quite capable
Speaker 6: of committing horrifying atrocities, who nevertheless are not of that
Speaker 6: particular bent during their pre war or after war behavior,
Speaker 6: so that, for instance, during World War two, the Nazis
Speaker 6: would have special so called nzots go up or attack
Speaker 6: groups would go into Polish towns and rund up the
Speaker 6: Jews and make them dig graves where they would then
Speaker 6: be machine gun and ordinary soldiers if they happen to
Speaker 6: be part of that regiment or whatever would be told, well,
Speaker 6: here's your rifle and mould these Jews down. You had
Speaker 6: even the permission to say, you know, captain, I don't
Speaker 6: know that I'm up for it, and then they would
Speaker 6: let you go. But of course a lot of them,
Speaker 6: there were very few that opted out. Most of them
Speaker 6: were perfectly willing to do it because they had and
Speaker 6: so bombarded with prejudice and the words of the furor
Speaker 6: and so on, that they're so whipped up with enthusiasm
Speaker 6: for how these are like vermin that need to be
Speaker 6: wiped out, that they could go ahead and do it
Speaker 6: and then go back to their girlfriends or wives or whatever,
Speaker 6: or certainly after the war and lead very ordinary lives.
Speaker 6: So they were not arch criminals except for the top people.
Speaker 6: They were ordinary folk, the same as happened in many
Speaker 6: wars and many even gain fights, like between the Crypts
Speaker 6: and the Bloods out in La So I wanted to
Speaker 6: focus on people that were warped in some way and
Speaker 6: personality and perhaps even mentally, who, in peacetime, without any
Speaker 6: provocation or without being whipped up, you know, by some
Speaker 6: leader to fight some named enemy, were quite capable of
Speaker 6: committing atrocities. It's a different group of people.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I find that interesting, But I think you could
Speaker 5: have a debate just on that one, and I won't
Speaker 5: you know, I won't create the debate, but you know,
Speaker 5: the over and beyond. Again, you talked about conscripted soldiers
Speaker 5: doing what they were told. However, you know the Nazis themselves,
Speaker 5: or the Gestapo or certain people around Hitler, let's put
Speaker 5: it that way, where again probably the epitome of evil,
Speaker 5: regardless of wartime or peace time. But again that's we
Speaker 5: could go on on that one, that debate for sure.
Speaker 6: Now higher up they were, the more you're correct, But
Speaker 6: even I was another example. I was thinking of the
Speaker 6: people who react to an atrocity. Princetans and during the
Speaker 6: Napoleonic Wars in the early nineteenth century, in eighteen seven
Speaker 6: or eight, they invaded Spain and the soldiers did horrible
Speaker 6: things to the Spanish people, and some of the Spanish
Speaker 6: people would then band together and round up and take
Speaker 6: a Napoleonic soldier and press them between two boards and
Speaker 6: put weights on top and crush no other way. They
Speaker 6: would commit atrocities to the soldiers, so that the rage
Speaker 6: and the outrage of being the victims of atrocity would
Speaker 6: turn many of the populace into doing equally unspeakable things
Speaker 6: to their oppressors. And these are not necessarily criminal types.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, And for the purpose of what you're doing too,
Speaker 5: you have to really it's it's a herculean task what
Speaker 5: you're trying to do too, because you really not only
Speaker 5: do you create, you're creating this scale, this hierarchy of evil.
Speaker 5: You have to really look at almost every again, six
Speaker 5: hundred cases or more, and all the books that you've read,
Speaker 5: like you say, to be able to say, okay, this
Speaker 5: is absolutely not evil, and then this is absolutely evil.
Speaker 5: And then of course what are they you know, the
Speaker 5: numbers in between. You go through crimes of impulse and
Speaker 5: jealousy and rage, then you go to anti social persons.
Speaker 5: Tell us about crimes of impulse and jealousy and rage,
Speaker 5: and why some of those can be classified as evil
Speaker 5: and why some of those can't.
Speaker 6: Well, again, if they have that horror element, then people
Speaker 6: will tend to speak of them as evil acts. But
Speaker 6: the crimes of passion will elicit that to a lesser degree,
Speaker 6: where people even if they say, well, it was an
Speaker 6: evil thing for Jean Harris to shoot her lover. Even
Speaker 6: though you can sort of understand it, the reaction is
Speaker 6: less strong than somebody else who especially forms a pathological jealousy,
Speaker 6: in other words, jealousy in response to a spouse or
Speaker 6: a lover that didn't even cheat on them, but where
Speaker 6: the person imagined that the lover. Well, for example, there
Speaker 6: was a man recently who thought that his wife was
Speaker 6: cheating on him. She was not, but he was so
Speaker 6: enraged that he threw acid in her face and disfigured
Speaker 6: her for life. And I had these horrible pictures of
Speaker 6: that person. So I think anyone looking at the poor
Speaker 6: woman's face who was just grossly disfigured because of the
Speaker 6: acid bath that he hurled in her direction would say
Speaker 6: that that was a terrible evil thing, or because they
Speaker 6: would feel compassionate and sympathy with the poor suffering wife.
Speaker 6: And he was of course put in prison for life
Speaker 6: and so on, and had even a twinge of remore
Speaker 6: because he had known that he'd done a terrible thing.
Speaker 6: But that was a jealousy that was going way beyond
Speaker 6: the ordinary man. That well, the Raging Bull, that movie
Speaker 6: where the boxer would maybe assault his wife because his
Speaker 6: brother would give her a kiss on the cheek when
Speaker 6: they came home, came over for dinner, and he would think, oh,
Speaker 6: that's because she wanted him to kill That kind of
Speaker 6: pathological jealousy is pretty awful also. But he stopped short
Speaker 6: of killing the poor woman, but throwing acid in the
Speaker 6: face of somebody, which, by the way, is a rather
Speaker 6: common way in some of the Islamic countries, especially Persia
Speaker 6: or Pakistan, for dealing with women that annoy you. You know,
Speaker 6: with the wife cheese or you think she cheese or
Speaker 6: whatever they will, or if a woman that you're trying
Speaker 6: to get engaged to when she rejects you. I mean
Speaker 6: a lot of cases where demand will desisure her by
Speaker 6: putting bay or acid in her face. And to me
Speaker 6: that those are really dreadful acts of evil.
Speaker 5: Now, tell us Dr Stone, what exactly and give us
Speaker 5: a case example. Again you we've already mentioned it, But
Speaker 5: tell us an example of the lowest scale, a case study,
Speaker 5: an example of the lowest grade on the evil scale.
Speaker 5: And then after that, tell us about someone that's the highest.
Speaker 5: And again we've already mentioned that, But tell us about that,
Speaker 5: and then we'll go through We'll try to go from
Speaker 5: the scale from the from say the top down, and
Speaker 5: then you can describe why these are different. Again, grades
Speaker 5: of evil different, you assigning different numbers or levels to
Speaker 5: the these levels of evil itself. So start with the
Speaker 5: least evil and on your scale, and why you have
Speaker 5: made why you believe it's this lowest on the scale
Speaker 5: of evil.
Speaker 6: Well, the the ones who are very low. Of course,
Speaker 6: we already mentioned Jean Harris, and because it was a
Speaker 6: crime of passion when she discovered another woman's panties in
Speaker 6: the drawer next to hers in herman Tarnauer's bedroom or whatever.
Speaker 6: So she became very depressed and this and just like
Speaker 6: like her felt her whole life was crushed, and so
Speaker 6: she got a gun and she killed him. Well, so
Speaker 6: that's because it's a crime of fashion in some countries.
Speaker 6: I think there are times when in France that would
Speaker 6: almost be let go. I mean, I think there are
Speaker 6: some women who have killed husbands in that way. It's considered,
Speaker 6: you know, it's a bad thing to do. It wasn't right,
Speaker 6: but it's so under the average person can picture doing
Speaker 6: something that you could have a fantasy if your wife
Speaker 6: you've suddenly found your wife in bed with somebody else
Speaker 6: in Jesus Christ and said, do you want to kill
Speaker 6: either her or the sob that was doing it. It's
Speaker 6: such a natural feeling that comes into us that we might,
Speaker 6: in some cases, of course, lose our impulse control and
Speaker 6: do something very violent, but it's more understandable. So the
Speaker 6: Helois recognizes the kind of evil that's really nicholindime, he
Speaker 6: was just the lowest of the evil acts. There's a fellow.
Speaker 6: There's a dancer, Kathy Woods, that a fellow by the
Speaker 6: name of Paul Cortes was fond of, and when she
Speaker 6: rejected him, he stabbed her. So that was another crime
Speaker 6: of passion. Another number, And I use the number two
Speaker 6: as the lowest of my scale for evil because the
Speaker 6: ones I purposely use as self as a justified homicide
Speaker 6: or self defense homicide, just to anchor the scale so
Speaker 6: that there's a division between were a killing homicide that's
Speaker 6: not evil, that's number one versus the two up to
Speaker 6: twenty two, where the word evil has been applied by
Speaker 6: some of the people who were aware of the crime.
Speaker 5: Okay, so go ahead with go from the bottom, then
Speaker 5: we'll proceed up rather than from top down. You talk
Speaker 5: about self defense, you talk about homicide self defense and
Speaker 5: being number one in that distinction. Take us to number
Speaker 5: two and three.
Speaker 6: Please, well two, we already said something about that. As
Speaker 6: a matter of thinct. There was a Cindy Campbell. Cindy Campbell,
Speaker 6: she had a boyfriend, and as far as she told
Speaker 6: the boyfriend anyway, the father had an incestuous relationship with her.
Speaker 6: So she became very angry and sensed and I probably
Speaker 6: got whipped him, whipped him into a state of mind
Speaker 6: where they went ahead and killed not only the father
Speaker 6: that she said was less than her sexually, but also
Speaker 6: the mother. So that was a more unjustified, if you will,
Speaker 6: an example of a murder. It was not a crime
Speaker 6: of passion, as though the husband, boyfriend, whatever had rejected her,
Speaker 6: but rather she was responding to the fact that she
Speaker 6: had when she said she was an incest victim. So
Speaker 6: that's more indirect than your own lover and chilling you,
Speaker 6: et cetera. So I think that was why I decided
Speaker 6: to give her somewhat higher number.
Speaker 5: And she killed her mother. Yes, she blamed her mother
Speaker 5: for the incestuous.
Speaker 6: Well, it's hard to know why. Maybe just because they
Speaker 6: thought that they had to kill both either to get
Speaker 6: away with it, or just to in a way maybe
Speaker 6: even to spare the mother the loss of husband. If
Speaker 6: I can put it that way, that's nice. It's not
Speaker 6: so clear in that particular case why they killed both
Speaker 6: the Christo Beninda's brothers killed both their parents when the
Speaker 6: one that they were angry I was more the father
Speaker 6: for being very critical of Eric and Lyle for being
Speaker 6: something off their work at school and being failures.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess I watched that. I don't know too
Speaker 5: many people had too much sympathy further than neez brothers really,
Speaker 5: So that's number four.
Speaker 6: Is here. Now I'm looking at fours and fives.
Speaker 5: One of the.
Speaker 6: Like, I get a slide on one of them. There
Speaker 6: we go. I'm just number five. I put down traumatized
Speaker 6: desperate persons who have killed abusing relatives, but who lack
Speaker 6: significant psychopathic traits. In other words, they're not totally callous
Speaker 6: and remorseless and narcissistic, et cetera. They've just been treated
Speaker 6: very cruelly and they're kind of getting back at the
Speaker 6: people that hurt them.
Speaker 5: He may be.
Speaker 6: Familiar with the well film of Barfield and North Carolina.
Speaker 6: Had a violent father and she was also an incest victim,
Speaker 6: but she was actually one of them. She was treated
Speaker 6: better by virtue of being a sexual object by her
Speaker 6: father than some of the other siblings. But her excuse me,
Speaker 6: when her life began to go downhill after she lost
Speaker 6: her husband, she then poisoned her mother and other relatives
Speaker 6: to collect insurance money to pay for her drug habits.
Speaker 6: So that was a more serious kind of act, And
Speaker 6: I put that in number five, the same as I
Speaker 6: did Mary Bell, who was tortured by her prostituted mother
Speaker 6: in the north of England and then killed two children,
Speaker 6: but was actually able to be rehabilitated morally and spiritually
Speaker 6: as she got older.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've heard about that. I think I watched an
Speaker 5: investigation discovery possibly mm hm. Now why make that distinction.
Speaker 5: Why is Mary Bell not higher up in terms of evil? Well,
Speaker 5: because description.
Speaker 6: She was only eleven years old when she committed the
Speaker 6: murdered the two boys, so that she was not like
Speaker 6: acting like an adult with more full awareness of consequences
Speaker 6: and so on. We tend not to be as harsh
Speaker 6: with children who kill as we do with adults. Besides
Speaker 6: which one has great sympathy for the horrors to which
Speaker 6: she was subjected and forget her mother tried to kill
Speaker 6: her in a number of ways, and then also would
Speaker 6: invite her john's and her man that she would be
Speaker 6: prostituting over and sometimes they would use Mary when she
Speaker 6: was five or six years old as a sexual object
Speaker 6: and puts sticks in her vagina. Well, hell, you have
Speaker 6: to have some sympathy for a girl that's been violated
Speaker 6: in that way. And but the main thing is that
Speaker 6: after she was in reformatories and even prison, you know,
Speaker 6: for quite a number of years, like ten eleven years,
Speaker 6: she experienced me more. She showed herself having the capacity
Speaker 6: you know, to be a good person. She had a
Speaker 6: moral sense. And she was released in England the course
Speaker 6: under her false name, and she did marry and have
Speaker 6: a kid, you know.
Speaker 5: Okay, now tell us continue with number seven.
Speaker 6: For us, well seven, I used this fellow Prosingjit Pudar.
Speaker 6: He was the one who came from India. He was
Speaker 6: from the lowest cast over there, but very bright persons.
Speaker 6: He was from the so called Hudi john or the
Speaker 6: low cast people. And nevertheless he became an engineering students,
Speaker 6: I recall, and in his culture, if you gave a
Speaker 6: girl a gift and she accepted the gift. That meant
Speaker 6: you were engaged. Well, there was a pretty girl, Tatana
Speaker 6: Tarasov over there in California, University of California, Berkeley, and
Speaker 6: he left her a kind of a scarf I think
Speaker 6: it was. He had a casual meeting with her at
Speaker 6: probably some school dance or whatever, and she picked it up.
Speaker 6: And he was spying on this from across the street,
Speaker 6: I guess, and she looked at him wondering what the
Speaker 6: heck it was and dumped it. So that meant that
Speaker 6: she spurned his engagement. Well, he became very impressed and
Speaker 6: also very angry, and he was telling his psychiatrist about that,
Speaker 6: and the psychiatrist was like dutifully taking notes and didn't
Speaker 6: do any didn't and he was saying, I'm going to
Speaker 6: kill that bitch, you know whatever. And the psychiatrists did
Speaker 6: not do anything, did not warn Tochanda that she was
Speaker 6: in imminent risk of being hurt. So he did kill her,
Speaker 6: and then that gave rise across the family sued, and
Speaker 6: that gave rise to the famous Terosov decision that if
Speaker 6: you're a psychiatrist like I am, and I've had it
Speaker 6: happen three times in my career that if you are
Speaker 6: in a situation where you have heard pretty convincing evidence
Speaker 6: from a patient that they mean to kill or hurt
Speaker 6: another person, you must warn that person. Or if they're not,
Speaker 6: I'm going to get a gun and I kill whoever
Speaker 6: is out the window, then you have to notify the police.
Speaker 6: Because there's no named victim, there's just a stranger.
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Speaker 6: And most states have the Tarasov law. But I spoke
Speaker 6: about Podar as highly narcissistic but not totally psychopathic person.
Speaker 6: In other words, he was not like a con artist
Speaker 6: or anything of that sort. But he killed a loved
Speaker 6: one out of jealousy. But in are the loved one
Speaker 6: was somebody that was almost like an imaginary loved one
Speaker 6: because he barely.
Speaker 5: Knew her, right right, Okay, now continue with number eight
Speaker 5: for us, please.
Speaker 6: Well, eight, I put Charles Whitman. He's the famous Texas
Speaker 6: tower killer in nineteen nineteen sixty six, and he was
Speaker 6: the one. He had a tough background. His father was
Speaker 6: very abusive, but he came from an otherwise economically alright family,
Speaker 6: and he was a marine, and he'd been pretty good soldier.
Speaker 6: But life began to spiral down for him, and there
Speaker 6: came a point where he killed his wife and his
Speaker 6: mother and then ascended the towers we all know and
Speaker 6: shot and killed sixteen people, that's including the wife and
Speaker 6: mother before the swat team killed him. An interesting thing
Speaker 6: about the Whitman was, of course, that when he was autopsy,
Speaker 6: he had brain tumor which may have pressed on the
Speaker 6: frontal lobes in such a way as to make his
Speaker 6: impulse control weaker than it would be had he not
Speaker 6: had that tumor. So the tumor was a factor, But
Speaker 6: he was himself a person was smoldering rage, but he
Speaker 6: was not the psychopath. Really, he was not somebody who
Speaker 6: had that combination of extreme narcissistic traits that come unto
Speaker 6: the heading of psychopathy, such as glib speech and superficial charm,
Speaker 6: and manipulativeness and grandiosity and callousness most particularly, and lack
Speaker 6: of remorse and exploitativeness. He didn't have those qualities. He
Speaker 6: was a better person than that. But he was a
Speaker 6: very rageful person, and unfortunately, I guess the tumor caused
Speaker 6: him to flip and lose the ability to control his
Speaker 6: rageful impulses, which he might have been able to control
Speaker 6: if that had not been a factor.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about psychopathic tendencies and traits, and in
Speaker 5: your chapters you have antisocial persons, and then the next chapter,
Speaker 5: chapter four, you have murdered on purpose the psychopathics schemers,
Speaker 5: and then in chapter six you have the psychopath at work.
Speaker 5: How important and what number do you begin to include
Speaker 5: psychopathic personality and personality traits in terms of the scale
Speaker 5: of evil? At what point? At what number do you
Speaker 5: start including psychopathic killers?
Speaker 6: Around nine? Because the human mind is so complex, there
Speaker 6: are some people with let's say a few psychopathic traits,
Speaker 6: but not the full picture who nevertheless do something very dahardly,
Speaker 6: and other people with a lot of psychopathic traits that
Speaker 6: do something that's not quite so shocking. So there's a
Speaker 6: little gray area around nine to ten. But the more
Speaker 6: typical one is this fellow Ira Einhorn and down in
Speaker 6: Philadelphia who was manly depressive. Really, he was a maniche guy, charismatic.
Speaker 6: He was very irritable. He was the hippie guru that
Speaker 6: was a counterculture person who was getting on this megaphone
Speaker 6: out in public and arguing against the Vietnam War. But
Speaker 6: he had a very beautiful girlfriend, Holly Maddox, and he
Speaker 6: was very possessive and to the point of kind of
Speaker 6: just crushing her spirit. So finally she said Basta enough already,
Speaker 6: and she left. I think she came to New York
Speaker 6: and then he lured her back out of again jealousy
Speaker 6: and anger, back to Philadelphia where he then killed her.
Speaker 6: And he put her in a steamer trunk and kept
Speaker 6: her body in a steamer trunk in his closet. And
Speaker 6: I think it was two years before it was discovered
Speaker 6: because by that time, the poor soul, her flesh had
Speaker 6: melted into fatty. At a post tissue and wasting dripping
Speaker 6: down in the neighbor's apartment below. So he then fled
Speaker 6: to Europe. He was championed by some wealthy people in
Speaker 6: this country, and he married somebody, a Swedish woman. They
Speaker 6: lived in the south of France, and it took a
Speaker 6: long time before he was found out, and then the
Speaker 6: French people were reluctant to extra died him back here,
Speaker 6: lest be give him the death penalty, so we had
Speaker 6: to promise, no, we won't give him the death penalty.
Speaker 6: And now he is in prison in Pennsylvania. I was
Speaker 6: supposed to speak to him, he was reluctant to speak
Speaker 6: to me, so that that never quite came off in
Speaker 6: the most evil program. But that's he'd also, by the way,
Speaker 6: been very aggressive and damaging and injurious to a number
Speaker 6: of previous girlfriends, so that he was a continuously violent man,
Speaker 6: and therefore different from just an ordinary jealousy case. He
Speaker 6: had many psychopathic features. So I put him higher up
Speaker 6: than number nine.
Speaker 5: Now, just before we get too far up here, too,
Speaker 5: because this is always I think it comes up anyway
Speaker 5: quite a bit in regarding mental illness. How much credit
Speaker 5: do you assign a case where you have elements of
Speaker 5: mental illness, either pre diagnosed or diagnosed after the fact,
Speaker 5: but you know at least in your mind clear elements
Speaker 5: of mental illness. How much do you use this in
Speaker 5: terms of to lower the number on the scale of evil?
Speaker 5: How much do how much do you consider that in
Speaker 5: regard to somebody?
Speaker 6: Do consider it? And sometimes I find it confusings. Sure
Speaker 6: I come up with the best solution. For instance, in
Speaker 6: the higher numbers, I know if the person is distinctly schizophrenic,
Speaker 6: I will knock it down to a special category one
Speaker 6: less than what the person might otherwise be placed if
Speaker 6: you were not psychotic. But then there are other ones
Speaker 6: where I'll try to handle it by let's take instead
Speaker 6: of saying that this is a case thirteen, I'll make
Speaker 6: it thirteen a where it's the same like thirteen, only
Speaker 6: the person is mentally ill. Where I draw attention to
Speaker 6: the fact that there's a mitigating circumstance that would tend
Speaker 6: to lower the nature of evil. Because if a person
Speaker 6: like poor Andrew Yates, for example, who drowned her five children,
Speaker 6: she was grossly psychotic. She was she probably aware of
Speaker 6: belted a toin of high school and a good person,
Speaker 6: the very depressed person, and a lot of the relatives
Speaker 6: in her family were also depressed. And this husband of hers,
Speaker 6: that most of my colleagues and I would have felt
Speaker 6: was the more responsible party in any ways, forced the
Speaker 6: poor woman to live in this little hollowed out bust
Speaker 6: that he made like a greyhound bus that was empty
Speaker 6: to the seats and turned into a mobile home. And
Speaker 6: she had the homeschool and home church, the five children,
Speaker 6: the oldest of which was only seven, and it was
Speaker 6: way more than her capacity to be a mother and
Speaker 6: someone that could handle. So she just, as they say,
Speaker 6: lost it and drowned the five children. So she was
Speaker 6: mentally ill. And I can't remember where I put her
Speaker 6: in the scale, right if I even bothered. But she's
Speaker 6: an example of somebody you know who had the mitigating
Speaker 6: circumstances of doing an evil act, certainly, and the whole
Speaker 6: country was electrified by it, but was not a flat
Speaker 6: out evil person like Ted Bundy or somebody. Right.
Speaker 5: Okay, now continue up to Let's skip ahead a little
Speaker 5: bit because we might not get through to this. Let's
Speaker 5: get up into the higher levels of evil, maybe say
Speaker 5: seventeen or eighteen. Let's get up into there and then
Speaker 5: talk about a case study or one of your subjects
Speaker 5: and describe why they are so much higher than where
Speaker 5: we left off here at number nine MM.
Speaker 6: Just trying to think whether you want to even do
Speaker 6: do Let's say, well sixteen sure. I think there's a
Speaker 6: fellow in Japan viaz Akisutomu, who came from a very
Speaker 6: wealthy Family's father had a newspaper. He was born into
Speaker 6: a wealthy family, and he had a congenital hand defect,
Speaker 6: such as he was not able to hold his hands
Speaker 6: palm up. And you may think, well, so what, But
Speaker 6: I've been to Japan enough times to know that that's
Speaker 6: a pretty awful thing for a kid to up, because
Speaker 6: when people come over in order to give thanks, you
Speaker 6: have to use those muscles, and people put little things
Speaker 6: in your outstretched palm, etc. As a gift, and so
Speaker 6: it's very embarrassing and humiliating if you can't do that.
Speaker 6: So he became very shy, very much a loner. And
Speaker 6: he did spend all this time in a room in
Speaker 6: the big house, so looking at comics and CDs and
Speaker 6: so on. But he couldn't establish intimacy with like women
Speaker 6: his age, so he would lurk around young girls, he
Speaker 6: became a stalker, and then in then around eighty nine,
Speaker 6: he kidnapped and murdered several young girls, and he mutilated
Speaker 6: their body and mailed their severed hands to the parents. Well,
Speaker 6: I mean, wow, imagine opening a box and there's your
Speaker 6: daughter's hand, for God's sake, So he committed multiple vicious acts,
Speaker 6: a kind of a serial killer in a way, as
Speaker 6: he really was. But but the again, he was not
Speaker 6: a psychopath appear and simple so much as a very
Speaker 6: disturbed schizoid in other words, a loner aloof person that
Speaker 6: couldn't interact with others who did these terrible things. Uh,
Speaker 6: they would shock the poor parents of their their missing daughters.
Speaker 6: So I considered him a schizoid, partly a psychopath or person.
Speaker 6: He didn't commit other crimes the way so many psychoprists ted.
Speaker 6: Bundy committed a lot of juvenile delinquency acts when he
Speaker 6: was in his teens, But Miyazaki didn't do that, so
Speaker 6: that it was more the callousness, the unfeelingness that he
Speaker 6: could do such a thing to a poor child and
Speaker 6: then horrify the parents by mailing their hands to the parents.
Speaker 5: Why would you not to get hung up on this,
Speaker 5: But why would you think that that showed an element
Speaker 5: of more schizophrenia versus psychopathology in terms of spending more
Speaker 5: hands to the parents.
Speaker 6: The just the the story of Miyazaki. I remember reading
Speaker 6: books about him. I was studying Japanese at the time,
Speaker 6: and my Japanese teacher and I would go over the story,
Speaker 6: and it was more the story of this pathetic loaner
Speaker 6: that just couldn't make contact with anyone, but who in
Speaker 6: other respects until he began to do those terrible things,
Speaker 6: I had not had a bad or aggressive history. In
Speaker 6: other words, he spent time just as an isolate I say,
Speaker 6: in his room, reading comics and whatever. But he'd never
Speaker 6: stolen anything. He never robbed anybody, didn't He had a
Speaker 6: clean record up to the time. Then he began luring
Speaker 6: those those children. I think one could argue with Wisney seventeen.
Speaker 6: Maybe one can make an argument for that, for reasons
Speaker 6: that seemed fairly convincing to me at the time. I
Speaker 6: put him one little.
Speaker 5: Notch lower right now, who is a notch above him? Then?
Speaker 6: Well, Chris Bundy, Bundy's I put Actually, I put Bundy
Speaker 6: at seventeen originally, I subsequently learned that he did, towards
Speaker 6: the end of his career, excuse me, bite into and
Speaker 6: do some pretty tortuous things to some of those women
Speaker 6: so that he might belong higher. I felt from the
Speaker 6: original things I've read about him that he did not
Speaker 6: do that, except maybe at the very end, where he
Speaker 6: did bite a young girl and was actually identified by
Speaker 6: the dental impressions in her arm. But he was this
Speaker 6: legitimate child, and there's even the possibility, it's never been
Speaker 6: I think confirmed or totally disproven, that his grandfather may
Speaker 6: have also been his father, But that man wasn't violent
Speaker 6: in any case, and the mother moved from Vermont I
Speaker 6: think it was to Washington State in Seattle, I guess,
Speaker 6: and married this fellow, John Bundy. Tacoma actually was where
Speaker 6: they moved. And he was often bullied when he was young.
Speaker 6: He was shy, but he didn't engage in like peeping tomism.
Speaker 6: He may have heard or even dispatched a little eight
Speaker 6: year old girl when he was fourteen. But he could be,
Speaker 6: as we all know, charming and sociable, which is the
Speaker 6: more classical psychopathic qualities. He had that gunn and the smile,
Speaker 6: and he could be very charming too in an outward
Speaker 6: way to people. He actually, as you know, worked on
Speaker 6: a suicide prevention radio program with Anne Rule, the famous
Speaker 6: true crime writer before he Yeah, and then he had
Speaker 6: his first love woman from a higher social class, which
Speaker 6: was something very important to him to kind of move
Speaker 6: up socially. But this girl, Stephanie Brooks, rejected him, and
Speaker 6: that was when he began luring and raping and killing
Speaker 6: at least two dozen and a half girls en route
Speaker 6: from Washington to Florida, and he also engaged in having
Speaker 6: sex with the corpses necrophilia. He escaped from prison in
Speaker 6: Colorado and Bonnie was apprehended from the bite marks. As
Speaker 6: I mentioned back in seventy eight. Now he had gone
Speaker 6: to law school. All we dropped out. But of course
Speaker 6: he tried to extend his life by saying, if you
Speaker 6: let me live a little bit longer, I'll show you
Speaker 6: some more bodies with the more places where the bodies.
Speaker 6: But they said enough already, and he was executed as
Speaker 6: you know, in nineteen eighty nine. But nevertheless, some judge
Speaker 6: and I'm glad I don't know his name because I
Speaker 6: would feel like hitting him, allowed him to marry in
Speaker 6: prison and have conjugal visits. So he gave he's the
Speaker 6: father of some some out there somewhere, Yeah, which I
Speaker 6: think it's ridiculous.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. Now are there are
Speaker 5: more evil people than Ted Bundy? So tell us as
Speaker 5: we go up this scale, who has made it to
Speaker 5: number eighteen?
Speaker 6: Well, the eighteen where I consider that the group where
Speaker 6: a torture happened, but the murder was the primary mode
Speaker 6: of usually to avoid detection, but the torture was not
Speaker 6: prolonged and not methodical. For instance, the cello. Jerry Brutos
Speaker 6: was born back in thirty nine, long time ago, and
Speaker 6: they moved to Oregon when he was a kid, and
Speaker 6: he became fascinated with high heeled shoes and the way
Speaker 6: kids will do. He wore them, sometimes his mom's shoes,
Speaker 6: but he was roundly scolded by his mother as though
Speaker 6: that was being a pansy or whatever, so she humiliated
Speaker 6: him for doing that, Whereas I think most boys at
Speaker 6: one point will try to see what it's like when
Speaker 6: they're five years old, to see what was to walk
Speaker 6: around a high heels and see what that's like. So
Speaker 6: he developed a shoe fetish when he was by ten already,
Speaker 6: which also extended to women's underwear. So eventually he would
Speaker 6: follow and stalk women, especially if they had pretty shoes
Speaker 6: and whatever, and he would break into woman's house to
Speaker 6: steal the shoes he might rape her. That was in
Speaker 6: his late twenties. Then he murdered someone and kept the
Speaker 6: woman's foot in the freezer as a fetishistic object. Then
Speaker 6: he raped half a dozen more women in the early
Speaker 6: seventies or late sixties. His wife divorced him meantime after
Speaker 6: he was arrested, and there's that typical psychopathic lack of remorse.
Speaker 6: Reporter once asked him of Jerry, now that you've been
Speaker 6: in prison a while and you've had the chance to
Speaker 6: look back on your life, do you feel anything about
Speaker 6: what you did in those women? And he rolled up
Speaker 6: a little piece of paper into a paper wad, which
Speaker 6: he flicked onto the floor, and he said, I feel
Speaker 6: as much for those women as I do for that
Speaker 6: lot of paper. So that extreme contempt was something that
Speaker 6: was characteristic of Jerry. But the level of torture was modest,
Speaker 6: if one can speak of modest respect. The torture in
Speaker 6: comparison to some of the worst people. So I left
Speaker 6: him at eighteen.
Speaker 5: Okay, let's let's just go to number twenty two. We'll
Speaker 5: leave a couple out for our audience to read on
Speaker 5: their own discovery, on their own but who has topped
Speaker 5: the scale at number twenty two and describe that case
Speaker 5: for us?
Speaker 6: Of course, I mentioned Brady already, the Ian Brady in England. He's,
Speaker 6: by the way, still alive and as you know, trying
Speaker 6: to die by not eating. So they stick this tube
Speaker 6: down him and feed him that way, although some he
Speaker 6: does think a piece of toast. I'm friends with one
Speaker 6: of the forensic psychiatrists, Jeremy cova In, a very fine
Speaker 6: London based psychiatrist, who knows Ian Brady and says that
Speaker 6: Ian Brady is the most narcissistic person he's ever confronted
Speaker 6: in his whole life.
Speaker 5: Oh sure.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 6: Another one that I put in twenty two was this
Speaker 6: fellow Andrei Chikatillo in the Ukraine who really began killing
Speaker 6: and raping and cannibalizing in his early forty already mostly girls,
Speaker 6: some boys and a few adults. But he would bite
Speaker 6: off their lips, he would bite up their sexual organs,
Speaker 6: he would eviscerate his victims. He would eat uteruses and
Speaker 6: things of that sort. No, he has suffered a measure
Speaker 6: of humiliation. When he was young, he was very shy.
Speaker 6: He seemed to be sexually inadequate, although he did have
Speaker 6: a wife and children, but he was a friendless, loner
Speaker 6: sort of a person. And then he developed this the
Speaker 6: terrible paraphilia of raping and killing, eviscerating and actually eating
Speaker 6: some of the parts of his victims. So he was
Speaker 6: captured about thirteen years ago and executed back in ninety four.
Speaker 5: Was there also, I know, he made a spectacle of
Speaker 5: himself in court and it was a whole issue of
Speaker 5: restraining him. And if there was ever a a person
Speaker 5: that looked like a psychopathic madman, it was with him,
Speaker 5: and that it was. Yeah, the contact also with the
Speaker 5: victims families of because that again, that's another feature that especially.
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think you know, I think he
Speaker 6: lured people. Uh. The one of the more high profile
Speaker 6: ones in our country, of course, uh is Leonard Lake
Speaker 6: out in California, who teamed up with this fellow Charles
Speaker 6: chita Ang from I think Hong Kong originally, and he
Speaker 6: had built a torture kind of a home or anyway
Speaker 6: and in remote place in California and would lure people
Speaker 6: from those whole couples or couples with the kid. His
Speaker 6: main victims were women, but he did kill a number
Speaker 6: of their husbands or boyfriends too, using as his accomplice.
Speaker 6: And he would tie up victims. And for instance, let's
Speaker 6: say a woman was tied up and she would be
Speaker 6: begging for let me see my baby, and you said,
Speaker 6: you know, you'll see your baby when we let you out,
Speaker 6: but had already killed a baby. And he would tell
Speaker 6: the woman, you know, who's being tied up in a
Speaker 6: chair and beaten, so that you're a sexual slave where
Speaker 6: the masters, and we can screw you when we want,
Speaker 6: we can hit you when we want, so that the
Speaker 6: master slave mentality that Roy Hazelwood from the FBI writes about,
Speaker 6: that was very much the type of murderer that Leonard
Speaker 6: Lake was. However, when he was apprehended for I think
Speaker 6: a parking ticket, they thought he thought, maybe wow, they.
Speaker 5: Have the goods.
Speaker 6: I mean, he committed suicide with a cindid tablet in
Speaker 6: his mouth, and Charles went to He fled to Canada
Speaker 6: and it took years for them to extradite him back
Speaker 6: again for the same reason. They had to promise in
Speaker 6: California not to execute him, and it costs billions and
Speaker 6: billions of dollars, you know, all the legal wrangling to
Speaker 6: get hang back in San Quentin where he still is.
Speaker 6: I have some friends who are psychologists work in San Quentin,
Speaker 6: so I get the news from some of these people periodically.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was one of the first cases that I had.
Speaker 5: I had the excellent true crime author Don lasseter On
Speaker 5: and he wrote the book about Leonard Lake tarles Ing
Speaker 5: and just incredible. Yeah, incredible story. And then the other
Speaker 5: probably the other story that you mentioned as well as
Speaker 5: that David Parker ray case. Talk about torture and evil,
Speaker 5: he's right.
Speaker 6: Up there, so yes, I mean, yeah, By the way,
Speaker 6: we should now ignore the fact that occasionally there will
Speaker 6: be a woman.
Speaker 5: Very rare.
Speaker 6: The soychopaths are outnumber the men, outnumber the women to
Speaker 6: buy about eight to one. There's very very few women
Speaker 6: who indulge in this kind of torture the way men do.
Speaker 6: But Teresa nor that I think was talked about in
Speaker 6: the Most People program. But they don't allow you in
Speaker 6: California to actually go out and interview them with videos.
Speaker 6: So she's in chaud Chill, a prison, but she's the
Speaker 6: one that tortured her daughters and killed two of them
Speaker 6: in the most unspeakable ways. I mean, she actually had
Speaker 6: her son, after torturing one of the daughters out, take
Speaker 6: her out to a remote place in the San Francisco
Speaker 6: Bay area and pour accelerant over her and burn her
Speaker 6: to death alive, and so that her body was not
Speaker 6: recognized for a long time. And when one of the
Speaker 6: surviving daughter that tried to run into the police and
Speaker 6: say what happened, the police didn't believe hers And what
Speaker 6: mother would do that?
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, incredible. Now what did you, I think,
Speaker 5: what did you learn from this trying to come up
Speaker 5: with a system of hierarchy of evil that you just
Speaker 5: could not imagine that you would have learned during this process.
Speaker 5: Is there anything that's really surprised you or anything that
Speaker 5: you really profound that you learned in this entire process.
Speaker 6: Yes, there were several things. I think, first of all,
Speaker 6: about the serial killers. So many of them came from
Speaker 6: very terrible backgrounds that you would say, oh, well, if
Speaker 6: you're beaten or parents humiliated you or threatened you with
Speaker 6: a knife, precision so you got to expect that the
Speaker 6: person might turn out bad. But what's fascinating is that
Speaker 6: there's a small number of the serial killers, including in
Speaker 6: a way Bunda himself, who did not experience from the
Speaker 6: parents humiliation, neglect, beatings, nothing he didn't fall on his head.
Speaker 6: The had injury is a factor in a number of
Speaker 6: these men. So when nothing of the usual environmental stresses
Speaker 6: is present in a particular case, you have to think
Speaker 6: about something genetic, something or something constitutional. And then constitutional
Speaker 6: would mean what happened during the nine months of pregnancy.
Speaker 6: Did the mother abuse drugs? Was the birth process difficult?
Speaker 6: Was the baby kind of blue and had a low
Speaker 6: oxygenation when it came out? But the most interesting are
Speaker 6: the ones where there isn't even that factor. And so
Speaker 6: you have to think about the possibilities, and since personality
Speaker 6: is half under genetic control, that some of these people
Speaker 6: are really like the traditional idea of bad seed, that
Speaker 6: they're born with the predisposition to be low in empathy,
Speaker 6: so much so that they're capable of doing terrible things
Speaker 6: that you and I would consider terrible. That they have
Speaker 6: no more feeling about then, as if they were whittling
Speaker 6: a piece of Wood.
Speaker 5: So what could you conclude from that? Because you do
Speaker 5: have a chapter about science and what neuroscience is concluded,
Speaker 5: and again it's there's not major conclusions. But what could
Speaker 5: you say then if it looks like there's the bad seed?
Speaker 5: Is that what you conclude that there are bad seeds?
Speaker 5: Or what did you find in your study here scientifically
Speaker 5: that could contribute.
Speaker 6: To this, well, the fact that there were some people
Speaker 6: who exemplify the old concept of bad seed. Now, since
Speaker 6: I don't do magnetic resonance imaging, that's for the neuroscientific
Speaker 6: group in my field. There are people, however, like Adrian Rayne,
Speaker 6: who's very gifted British psychiatrists, who now is in Pennsylvania,
Speaker 6: was in San Diego for a number of years. Now
Speaker 6: he's in Pennsylvania and he's done very major work in
Speaker 6: magnetic residence imaging of criminals, both antisocial men who don't
Speaker 6: have all the psychopathic features, the kind of men to
Speaker 6: get involved in barroom brawls or batter their wives or
Speaker 6: cheat on their child support or whatever, who are antisocial
Speaker 6: but not necessarily psychopathic. And then that if you think
Speaker 6: of a prison having a certain population about many of
Speaker 6: the men are antisocial but only a fourth of them
Speaker 6: also meet criteria for psychopathy with the callousness of remorse
Speaker 6: and grandiosity and super narcissism and all the rest of it.
Speaker 6: But Adrian has shown that some of the hot headed
Speaker 6: were the barroom brawl type. I use that as an example.
Speaker 6: They have certain areas of light up in their brain
Speaker 6: when you give them certain tests under the influence of
Speaker 6: magnetic residence imaging, UH, and they are hot headed. They're
Speaker 6: their emotionality shows up in various places in the brain
Speaker 6: in a particular way. If you look at the cold psychopath, however,
Speaker 6: they're they're different there. They are not full of emotion
Speaker 6: and rage. Often when they do they're they're killing. They're
Speaker 6: methodical about it, the same way that you might be
Speaker 6: if you were a hunter trying to go out in
Speaker 6: the fields and kill deer for supper. So they're of
Speaker 6: a different brain change stripe than the antisocial men. And
Speaker 6: that's very interesting. So that and of course in all
Speaker 6: of these people, UH, there's certainly some changes, usually in
Speaker 6: the part of the frontal lobe that mediates emotion and
Speaker 6: social planning and making right decisions that makes us human
Speaker 6: as opposed to just like their ordinary animals, and that
Speaker 6: there's the def that's in some of the key areas
Speaker 6: in the frontal lobes and also in the more primitive
Speaker 6: so called olympic system underneath that that cause the person
Speaker 6: to have poor control over impulses that are an ordinary
Speaker 6: socialized person is able to control, So that things that
Speaker 6: you and I would maybe think of doing if we're
Speaker 6: jilted or fired from a job or whatever, or the
Speaker 6: our car is upended by some road rage guy, we
Speaker 6: think of maybe momentarily kill that SOB, but we don't.
Speaker 6: These people do so Adrian has done a lot of
Speaker 6: important work in that area.
Speaker 5: You really assert that maybe someday that we'll be able
Speaker 5: to use this sort of system, or we will be
Speaker 5: able to predict in a certain way and then maybe
Speaker 5: even steer these people away from criminality. Or is this
Speaker 5: really just a lofty goal, or you really think there
Speaker 5: is some evidence of at least being able to identify.
Speaker 6: Ideally, I think we may be able to identify. Ye know,
Speaker 6: I think it's a very important point you make. I
Speaker 6: think we can begin to identify some youngsters, especially the
Speaker 6: people who've been given the name and I'm talking about
Speaker 6: adolescence now. The callous hyphen unemotional youth the callous unemotional youth,
Speaker 6: because if you follow the callous unemotional youth up into
Speaker 6: his late teens and early twenties, you then often find
Speaker 6: that they have now turned into psychopaths. In other words,
Speaker 6: these the callous unemotional youth is usually male, are psychopaths
Speaker 6: in embryo. If you will, they're going to evolve as psychopaths.
Speaker 6: They When I was doing my program, actually the woman
Speaker 6: down in Texas phoned me because she was very worried
Speaker 6: about her son. Interesting thing was, she had this son
Speaker 6: by a guide that she was having an affair with
Speaker 6: in another southern state before she left him and moved
Speaker 6: to Texas. She found out after a while that the
Speaker 6: man that she was living with and who was a
Speaker 6: biological father of her boy, was an exicon, and so
Speaker 6: that she felt this is not a marriage made in
Speaker 6: heaven or even an affair made in heaven. So she
Speaker 6: left and she went to Texas and married a nice
Speaker 6: man and had a daughter by the husband. But the
Speaker 6: boy meantime became unmanageable. He would steal things from the father,
Speaker 6: and he would set fires in the house all over
Speaker 6: the place. So that they had an a fire extinguisher
Speaker 6: in every room. He also tortured animals. He would kill
Speaker 6: cats in a terrible way and other animals. He would
Speaker 6: bully kids in school, and he tried to strangle his sister.
Speaker 6: So she was wondering what had to do with him.
Speaker 6: And I have some colleagues down in the Houston area
Speaker 6: that I've talked to about this case. I said, you know,
Speaker 6: he's been evaluated by a psychologists or a psychiatrist down
Speaker 6: there that doesn't seem to quite grasp the nature of
Speaker 6: the situation. Can't we get him into a kind of
Speaker 6: a reformatory or some kind of institution where he can
Speaker 6: be kept, looked at, study treated to what extent he
Speaker 6: can be treated, but at least rescued, airlifted out of
Speaker 6: that family so the family can can continue as a unit,
Speaker 6: because he was really tearing apart of the family that
Speaker 6: they couldn't live knowing that they had to be buying
Speaker 6: their fingernails every minute, wondering whether he's going to kill
Speaker 6: their their daughter.
Speaker 5: So that happened.
Speaker 6: He went to an institution and he stayed there quite
Speaker 6: a bit of time. I remember speaking with them about
Speaker 6: this callous on emotional youth. Now he's a bit older already,
Speaker 6: and he has some of the psychopathic features they were able.
Speaker 6: I think he's somewhat better control now, is my impression,
Speaker 6: than he was back then. So maybe they were able to,
Speaker 6: if not rehabilitate him to becoming a really person with
Speaker 6: ordinary emotional sentiments, at least to be able to control
Speaker 6: his violent impulses. So I think there's some ray of
Speaker 6: hope that at least a percentage of callous unemotional use
Speaker 6: can be identified by the nature what they've done in
Speaker 6: the twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years, and some of them
Speaker 6: can be treated in such a way that the tendency
Speaker 6: to do terrible things can be minimized. I don't think
Speaker 6: one can quote secure all of them. I think some
Speaker 6: of them are going to remain beyond a successful treatment
Speaker 6: and always be worrisome.
Speaker 5: Some of them.
Speaker 6: Now, we don't have protective detention in our country where
Speaker 6: you could keep them forever before they've done a really
Speaker 6: serious purpose. But so we're not Russia, but at least
Speaker 6: we would have our eye on them, so to speak,
Speaker 6: and that might be helpful.
Speaker 5: Now we just have a little bit of time. I
Speaker 5: wanted to ask. This book has been out for a
Speaker 5: little bit of time. I'm not sure how long, but
Speaker 5: I know that you've done numerous, numerous interviews and been
Speaker 5: very well accepted. Tell us about the acceptance of the
Speaker 5: you know how if it's if it's really caught on
Speaker 5: or are you happy and content with the way it's
Speaker 5: been received in terms of this gradation of evil, this
Speaker 5: twenty two level higherarchy of evil? Do you think people
Speaker 5: understand it that you've done the interviews with has been
Speaker 5: accepted by your colleagues. Tell us about this acceptance.
Speaker 6: By a fair number of colleagues, and that's used. I
Speaker 6: know my colleagues in Sweden use them. And when I'm
Speaker 6: interviewed for television like television programs, the people who interview
Speaker 6: me have become familiar with it and are comfortable with it, etc.
Speaker 6: I'm supposed to be doing the show for Investigative Discovery
Speaker 6: this coming Friday. No, I'm sorry, this coming Saturday about
Speaker 6: another dreadful man who killed his wife in an awful way,
Speaker 6: Richard Sharp, the doctor so and I'm also trying to
Speaker 6: get another like a sequel to the Most Evil going,
Speaker 6: which I'm going to call the New Evil because it's
Speaker 6: focusing on the kind of things you and I were
Speaker 6: talking about in the beginning, about the coursening in the
Speaker 6: culture that has led to a lot of increasingly gruesome
Speaker 6: crimes in the recent years, and some I think the
Speaker 6: people in my field, of my colleagues, especially my forensic colleagues,
Speaker 6: are more comfortable with the use of the term evil,
Speaker 6: as I expect it as an emotional word, not as
Speaker 6: a pronouncement from on high, et cetera, so that it
Speaker 6: has some currency there. Although the publishing house Prometheus, it
Speaker 6: was not like publishing a double day or something, so
Speaker 6: that the total sales was rather short of what I
Speaker 6: might have hoped. But those that have read it and
Speaker 6: reviewed it have been, I would say, for absolutely the
Speaker 6: most part, quite enthusiastic about it.
Speaker 5: So you're you're pretty happy with the results overall in
Speaker 5: terms of at least acceptance. No one's really got any
Speaker 5: major arguments with you on the distinctions that you have
Speaker 5: made and the way you've picked. You know what the
Speaker 5: criteria used to be able.
Speaker 6: To Yeah, that's right. As a matter of fact, they've
Speaker 6: trend in most evil. The program has been translated into
Speaker 6: Spanish to many langs, which is when I was in
Speaker 6: Russia a couple of years ago. They were showing it
Speaker 6: at that time just by coincidence, and so many people
Speaker 6: they knew who I was.
Speaker 5: I recognized me in.
Speaker 6: The street in South America and Mexico and Central America
Speaker 6: because Spanish is a extremely widely spoken language. I gave
Speaker 6: a lecture down there about three weeks ago in Sioudn
Speaker 6: Juarez on the other side of El Pasco, and they're
Speaker 6: very enthusiastic. I get lots and lots of Facebook and
Speaker 6: email comments from people in Brazil, and luckily I read
Speaker 6: Portuguese and Spanish and German and Russian in those languages,
Speaker 6: so at least I know what they're talking about, and
Speaker 6: I answered them as best I can. But I had
Speaker 6: a few what I call Lindsay lohand moments when I
Speaker 6: was in another very famous person. I had a few
Speaker 6: moments of feeling like a celebrity down in Mexico because
Speaker 6: many people wanted to have their picture taken with me,
Speaker 6: which was not something I'm used to. Yeah, so that
Speaker 6: I felt that I was having the kind of life
Speaker 6: that Lindsay Lohan was having without even having to get drunk.
Speaker 5: It's amazing though, this audience, this program has a big
Speaker 5: audience in Australia, and I hear from a lot of
Speaker 5: people from the UK, and of course America and Canada
Speaker 5: and other countries as well. But there's a lot of
Speaker 5: people in Australia listen to the program, and so I
Speaker 5: know that there's a lot of countries. I know a
Speaker 5: lot of places. Canada just kind of is the same thing.
Speaker 5: We don't know much about our own true crimes, except
Speaker 5: as the last few years where we've had some guys
Speaker 5: that are really really, really been competitive. But overall, we
Speaker 5: don't really know that much. And we and I think
Speaker 5: countries outside of America look to America for true crime.
Speaker 5: It's not like they're the only country that has these crimes,
Speaker 5: but America has done a a good job of not
Speaker 5: shying away from them and basically regard them as history.
Speaker 5: And nobody winces. And eventually any program or pardon me,
Speaker 5: any murder case, murder trial, whether it's gruesome or not,
Speaker 5: eventually reaches the public, who is a demanding public, a
Speaker 5: discerning public, and an interested public in these kinds of cases,
Speaker 5: and even the like you say, the analysis that you
Speaker 5: do is much different than a true crime book, which
Speaker 5: is for the most part, you know, for fairly formulaic,
Speaker 5: and then when you do these analysis that some people
Speaker 5: might think that on the surface might be dry. There's
Speaker 5: a huge audience for the psychology of these killers God
Speaker 5: tried on today. Of course, they read the true crime books,
Speaker 5: they love them, but they want to know why, and that.
Speaker 6: Is that's exactly the word. In other words, the true
Speaker 6: crime books focused on for the most part, who want,
Speaker 6: where and how, and my focus is on why, and
Speaker 6: that's what makes the difference. And I have many colleagues
Speaker 6: in Australia too, who I met some just in San
Speaker 6: Francisco at the meeting in May, and we've talked about
Speaker 6: those things, and so that I know that it's shown
Speaker 6: there as it is in all kinds of places, even
Speaker 6: places rather obscure places like Malaysia.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, no, it's a very very interesting subject.
Speaker 5: And you have done a great job with this book,
Speaker 5: doctor Stone, with the Anatomy of Evil. And I want
Speaker 5: to thank you very much for coming on the program
Speaker 5: and sharing the book and the journey into this Anatomy
Speaker 5: of evil. I want to thank you very much.
Speaker 6: For this well. I want to thank you for having
Speaker 6: me on the program and giving me so much time.
Speaker 6: It's been a pleasure on my side.
Speaker 5: Too, So yeah, it's been very good. And for those
Speaker 5: that might want to contact you or find a copy
Speaker 5: of the book, obviously it's Amazon, Barnes and Noble chapters
Speaker 5: in Canada. But is there any way that you encourage
Speaker 5: people to contact to ask any questions, or to Facebook
Speaker 5: or tell us how the best of contact Facebook?
Speaker 6: It's a little complicated for me and in some ways
Speaker 6: less private, so I I prefer people to get in
Speaker 6: touch with me with my I have several emails, but
Speaker 6: one of them is I use more often, which is
Speaker 6: m H. Stone MD at yahoo dot com.
Speaker 5: That's good. I'm sure people will respond to this. I've
Speaker 5: got a very very dedicated audience and very discerning and
Speaker 5: very attentive, and I'm sure they will appreciate this interview
Speaker 5: that we had this evening. So I want to thank
Speaker 5: you very much. I've been listening to Anatomy of Evil
Speaker 5: with my special guest, doctor Michael H. Stone. Have yourself
Speaker 5: a good evening, Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Good night,