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Speaker 1: Some some some some something's h.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, what's up, y'all. It's about that time. We're

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about to bring in our guests for the evening. Her

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name is Dasha Necrophilia. I mean Dasha Nescarakrova. Just kidding.

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I'm just kidding you. Tonight's our esteem. The guest is Dasha.

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I can't even talk it. I can't even say it.

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I'm so nervous. Dasha Nekrasova. She is a podcast person.

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She is a socialite person. She is a She is

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on the Netflix series Succession, of which many of you

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I'm sure have seen. She is was recommended to me

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actually many years ago by my friends. My friends like,

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you just listen to Dash and I was like, who

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what are you talking about? And they were like, oh,

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she's on that left podcast called Choppo trap House, and

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I remember I tweeted at them or something and they said,

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you're an idiot. So I didn't listen to Chopo Triphouse

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because they call him and nasty names. And then she

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was on another podcast called Red Scare, and I listened

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to a little bit of that, but then I saw

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that she was on Perfect Guy Life, the Sam Hyde podcast.

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Prior to my presence on the SAMI podcast. There's a

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giant empty window because she's signing in. Here we go

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and there she is, what's up? Can you hear me?

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I hear you? Do you hear me?

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Speaker 3: I can hear you? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Oh nice? Perfect. So I was given an introduction. I

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was talking about how I had a friend many years

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ago who said, you need to go listen to the

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to Dasha on the Chopo trip Hoals and you need

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to listen to Red Scare And I was like, okay, whatever,

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I'll check it out. And so I've heard of you.

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But then when I saw you on PGL the week

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or so before I was on PG, I was like,

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all right, she might be all right, she might be

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all right.

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Speaker 3: Nice to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Likewise, thanks for coming. And last thing you also besides

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your podcast, you do, you were on Succession correct.

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Speaker 3: Yep, and some other things. I'm an actress and a filmmaker.

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Speaker 2: I remember mister Robot. You also had a you ran

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mister Robot for Yeah exactly. Yeah, Now we can do this.

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I'm pretty flexible if you want to do it in

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a more formal way where we have like timed back

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and forth, or if you'd rather do it in just

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conversational format. Either way is fine with me. I usually

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let guests pick how they want to do it.

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Speaker 3: We can do it more casually, okay, Yeah, let's just

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wing it, I guess.

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Speaker 2: Okay. And before we get into it, are you fairly

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new to Eastern Catholicism? Is that a turn? Did you

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have a turn in that direction recently? Or is that

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something you've been interested in for a while.

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Speaker 3: I was chrismated three almost three years ago, so I've

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been a practicing okay, well before that, but that was

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when I was canonically changed rights.

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Speaker 2: What can I ask you before we get into the discussion,

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like what led you in that direction out of say

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Protestantism or Orthodoxy or what was it about Eastern Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was already Catholic. I was baptized Catholic as

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a baby, and I wasn't practicing until in my late twenties,

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I guess. And then when I found out about the

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Eastern Right, it made a lot of sense. I'm Russian.

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Speaker 2: My dad's Orthodox, So how did you end up baptized

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Catholic if your dad was your dad Russian Orthodox or

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Russian Catholic?

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Speaker 3: Russian Orthodox. My mom's Catholic because I'm from Belarus, which

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is very close to Lithuania and there's a lot of

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Greek Catholics over there, though I was baptized Roman Catholic.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'll let you go first. You can tell

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us why Eastern Catholicism is true or preferable as opposed

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to Orthodox Christianity. You can have as long as you want.

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You can say whatever you want and I'll be quiet,

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and then you let me know when you're done, and

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I'll make my argument.

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Speaker 3: Okay, are we starting?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're ready, sure, go ahead. You can go first.

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Speaker 3: Am I on right? Now?

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Speaker 2: We are on? Correct?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Okay? Okay, So well I am not. I can't

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really make an argument against Orthodoxy. I don't think that

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Orthodoxy is wrong. I think that it's incomplete. I think

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it doesn't have the fullness of the faith. And I

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guess there's more I have to say, but I guess

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I want to pause it to you. What would you

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say if I told you that I was Orthodox?

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Speaker 2: Well, if you were Orthodox, I'd be like, good job.

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So what do you mean do you mean how I

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make your argument?

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Speaker 3: Well, that I am Orthodox, that I hold the true faith.

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Speaker 2: Oh you mean little Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox. Sure, gotcha?

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So is that are you done? Or did you want

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to keep making arguments? You're asking me a question?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess. My argument is that Eastern Catholics

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are Orthodox. They might not be big o Orthodox, and

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they might not belong to one of the many ethnic

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schismatic churches of Eastern Orthodoxy, but that they do all

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the true faith and they're in communion with the true

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universal Church. And my other argument, I guess, is that Orthodoxy,

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as evidenced by its fruits, is not universal.

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Speaker 2: Well several things there. So first I would say, in

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regard to the claim that it's wrong and that it's incomplete,

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we have different ideas about what the word Catholic constitutes.

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So it's of Orthodox Catholic constitutes first and foremost, not numbers,

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but the fullness of truth. So the Catholic Church, even

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in the fourth century, whether you're an Orthodox or whether

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you're Roman Catholic, the fourth century Church was reduced to

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the very is that what is that? I don't know,

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you are you letting loose air freshman?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it can't be a numbers thing in terms

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of what you're calling universality, because in the fourth century

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the majority of the Church was Aryan and Semirian, so

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it was the true church was reduced to a small

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number of people. Likewise, in the iconoclass controversy, when you

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have the Seventh Council defending icons the majority was against iconography,

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so it can't be identical to numbers. If you look

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at Canon six of Nicia, which is the first documentical Council,

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it mentions patriarchates that are based around national churches. So

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there's nothing inherently wrong with national churches in that regard,

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because even the Ecmmenical councils recognize that. And in regard

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to this question in terms of schismatic local churches or whatever.

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If you look at Ephesus, the Ecumenical Council ephesis, they

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are the first council to grant to the Church of

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Cyprus autocephaly, which means that they're self governing, independent churches.

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So that the tradition of the first thousand years of

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Christianity itself already shows this localized synodal autocephalist type model

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that the Roman Church used to accept in the first

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thousand years, So it's actually, I would argue the Roman

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Catholic papal system that began to deviate in the eighth, ninth, tenth,

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and eleventh centuries.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but what about now with the Roman Church taking

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on more of a synodyl structure, and in what way

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really is Eastern Catholicism meaningfully different from an autocephalus or

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autonomous Orthodox Church besides the papacy.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the two statements from the chi

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eighty document and the Alexandria Document, I would argue our

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contrary to Vatican one. So you're right that they move

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in more of a synodal direction. I Vatican two has

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the same idea of synoidality, but if you look at

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Vatican one, it's very much a papal autocracy and you're

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not really allowed to go against that if you hold

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to Vatican one. So I would argue that Chiad and Alexandria,

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even though they are concessions to the Orthodox claims and critiques,

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there are actually contradictory admissions that Vatican one just doesn't

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work and is kind of the root of the problem.

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I mean, it's not the only problem, but it's kind

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of the root of the problem. So yeah, like conceding

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our position would be in my view like admitting that

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the Roman system was the one that deviated.

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Speaker 3: Okay from the original.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have a snod concilier model in the first

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thousand years, right, So the councils are called by emperors,

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they're not called by popes. There was one pope who

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tried to call the council latter in six forty nine

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and that wasn't enough. That's why there was the sixth

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Ecumenical Council to decide that issue. And if popes were

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able in the first thousand years to call and confirm

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and ratify the councils latter in six forty nine would

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be a Roman Catholic Ecumenical council. But it's not because

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there was a later council, the sixth Council, which settled

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the issue. So the model, and you can see this

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in the canons of those councils two, which is church law.

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So each council has canons. Every one of the acumenical

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councils of the first eight centuries has canons that don't

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line up with the model and the structure of Vatican

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One's autocracy, where there's an exemption for the Roman bishop

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who can universally and unilaterally make decisions and dogma in

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the church.

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Speaker 3: Okay, what about Canon eight, which says that you can't

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have two bishops.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would argue that Eastern Catholicism immediately is a

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problem for that, because in the Roman Catholic Uniate system,

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there's three patriarchs of Antioch. So Eastern Catholicism, if you

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are you referring to cannonate.

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Speaker 3: Of what exactly, it's not lawful to the same city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in the metropolitan original church structure, you

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would have one bishop per region or per area. And

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if there's three bishops of Antioch in the Uniate church,

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then the Uniates don't follow the ancient cannons. And that's

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that's one of the critiques that we would make of

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the Uniates, is that they don't follow that. If you're

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referring to America, like in the sense of the Odd

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rokor Yeah, No, America is a unique situation because of

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it being an an Enlightenment propositional creation. So some people

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have pushed for a single jurisdiction. I actually don't think

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that would be good because there is state influence in

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say the patriarchate of the ep and the go arch churches,

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so we don't want them dictating everything in the church.

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But you're correct that there are situations in either the

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West or the East where there's not a perfect lineup

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with the ancient canons. So I'm not saying it's okay

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to violate the canons. But this isn't really this is

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a problem really for either Rome or Orthodoxy. It's not

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unique to Orthodoxy to have rival jurisdictions.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say the Catholicism does have bribal jurisdictions.

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Speaker 2: But if there's three patriarchs of Antioch that are Eastern

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Catholics right now, that would be a violation of the argument.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, I guess so.

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Speaker 2: In other words, the papacy will tolerate it as well

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because of unique situations, just like Orthodoxy has to deal

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with the unique situation of expatriots in America.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't like the ethnic nationalist idea condemned by a council

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and Constantinople.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, any it's and it's more than justsconstant Ople, it's

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other patriarchates as well. Agreed that if you put your

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nationality above the Gospel that's a violation of the principle

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of the universality of the Gospel call. Absolutely so. But

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you know, I go to Russian church. We have black

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people that come, we have Japanese people that come, we

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have eight you know, other Asian people that come, Greeks come,

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and then native Russian people there. So you know, in

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my experience Antiochians or Arabs and whites in the Bible belt,

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I don't see a lot of the Ethno nationalism. But

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I imagine that it exists in both communions, just like you

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would find it anywhere. Protestants have Ethno national churches. If

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you go to Poland, they're going to be very Ethno Catholic, right,

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So don't I don't see that as unique to Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 3: Okay, hold on, I'm gonna look at my nose.

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Speaker 2: It's okay, I got notes too.

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Speaker 3: I guess yeah. I feel like it's on you to

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make a case for.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'll make a case. Uh, let me let me

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make this point then, So, for a long time, the

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Roman Church condemned the people who are known as kind

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of the founders of Orthodox Christianity, which if you call

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them schismatics, you would have mark of Ephesus, Saint Photius

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of Constantinople. Uh, and then you would have Gregory Palomas.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So for us these are the pillars of Orthodoxy, but

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for the Roman Catholic Church they've been condemned in ecumenical

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councils and other places because they are the pillars of

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the schism. However, in the twentieth century, because of Amanism,

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because of the work of Eastern Catholic scholars like Francis Devornik,

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who's probably the most famous of all these, there's been

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a rehabilitation of people like Photius Palomas, and Eastern Catholic

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churches now are allowed to revere, even though they already

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did for many centuries, revere the people that Rome considered

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schismatic heretics. Now they're able to be revered as saints.

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John Paul the Second put an image of Gregory Palomas

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up in one of his private chapels. The Eastern Catholics

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used the same festal Minion, which is the Book of

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the Saints that we use in the Orthodox Church. So,

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in other words, even though the Uniates were continuing to

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revere people that Rome condemned, and now Rome has said, okay,

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you can do that. It's fine. They've even reversed this

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for people like Nestorius in the SiO Malabar Church. Under

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the Catholics, you can revere Patriarch Nestorius, which would mean

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that ephesis is false because ephesis doesn't just say is

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a bad person. All the anathemas of Ephicis are against Astorias. So,

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in other words, my argument against Eastern Catholicism is that

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Eastern Catholicism itself disproves Roman Catholicism because you were also

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theologically of the same position as the Orthodox, and many

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of them still are. For example, Melkites in their catechism,

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the Melchite Catechism says there's only seven councils, but the

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paper as he says, you have to accept all the

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papal ecumenical councils. You can't have your cake and eat

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it too. So the very existence of Eastern Catholicism as

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our theology within the papal system, rejecting the papal later

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teachings and dogmas like Trent, that is itself a disprover

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of Roman Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: So in which way, are like Melkites are Russian Catholic

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then not Orthodox?

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Speaker 2: Well, if you choose to unite yourself with a position

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that is, you know, for example, Gregor Palomos wrote treat

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Use against the phillioqua right, he calls it a Satanic doctrine.

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And then after that you get Byzantine Synods, which are

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called the Palomide Synods, which condemned the Roman position. So

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if you're Orthodox, you would have to follow the Byzantine

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Synods of the Palomide Synods as they're called, which condemned

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the papal position of the phillyoquay. So you couldn't be

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Eastern Catholic consistently and at the same time believe in

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the papal confessions and the Papal views and Purgatory and

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the teachings of Trent. You know, Trent has stuff in

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there too, like created grace in the Anathemas, which an

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Orthodox person could never So it's almost like you're saying, well,

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I want both systems and I can still be Orthodox. Well,

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you would have to not believe the heterodox papal thing

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if you're Orthodox. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But I also think that the Slavic mind especially

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is able to comprehend and exists in contradiction and that actually.

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Speaker 2: Well, now, wait a minute, So you're saying that because

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you're of the Slavic mind, you can accept the contradiction.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm, it's not, isue?

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Speaker 2: I mean, are you trolling?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: I'm well, how could we allow contradictions in theology? That

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would mean so, like, so the Trinity is true but

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also not true?

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Speaker 3: Who said the Trinity wasn't true?

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that if you are okay with contradictions, it

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would seem to open up Pandora's box for anything.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know any Eastern or Russian Catholics

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who struggle with like venerating Palamas for example, or you know,

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not we don't have to say the Philly Okay.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but but why would you want to be in

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communion with It's an entity that basically said you were

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heretic and wrong for you know, the last eight hundred

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thousand years, and then oh, by the are bad? You

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can you can do it now? That would be in

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the papacy admitting that, you know, I mean, how are

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they wrong in condemning these guys as heretics and schismatics

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but now you can rever them as saints?

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Speaker 3: Well, it takes humility to own up to your mistakes.

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Speaker 2: That's true, however, rue but how that's true, But the

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papacy claims that it doesn't make these kinds of mistakes

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in dogma well and indefectibility, right, So it's not just

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him teaching in a magisterial sense without error. It's also

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that the Roman See cannot defect from the faith in

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anything regarding its teaching on faith and morals.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know how they've defected in some ways.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask you. Don't You

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have a lot of criticism on Twitter of Francis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't. I don't say that stuff anymore.

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Speaker 2: So is it not true anymore or you just don't

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say anything.

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Speaker 3: I think when I first, you know, became a practicing Catholic,

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when I found out about set of accantism, I was like,

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that's crazy, and I tried, you know, to debunk it,

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and found that I, you know, with my limited intill

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I kind of couldn't, and that you know, there were

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a lot of compelling cases for it. But since then,

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I guess I've advanced or grown in my spirituality to

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just have the humility of not it's not really my

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business and I guess, Yeah, I wouldn't consider myself a papist.

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I think it's a little unfair to call UNI it's

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Eastern Christian's papist.

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Speaker 2: Well, go ahead, and I mean to cut you off.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead, well, because it's not about just having the

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apostolic succession or the sacramental and integrity. It's about having

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the like jurisdictional unity of having the Bishop of Rome,

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of the idea of the papacy as a visible head

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of a unified church, like a visible principle of unity,

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which Catholicism offers and Orthodoxy does not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's probably where if

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I was going to make your argument, that's where I

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would go. It's just interesting that the UNI eight churches historically,

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for example, the Malchi Catechism, have not said that they've

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held to the Orthodox position. They've tried to stress over

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the centuries more of a sonodal model. And if Francis

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really did provide that and give that, I think that

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there would not be so much confusion post Vatican Two

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about what Catholic teaching is. For example, you had a

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pretty consistent teaching on the death penalty up until John

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pull the Second and Francis. Both taught openly that the

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death penalty is contrary to the Gospel, when for centuries

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it was part of natural justice. You have the teaching

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in Vatican two that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God,

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and even that Abraham had the.

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Speaker 3: Genuous. That's not true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. What do you mean, No. Tatze three,

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Lumingentium sixteen.

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Speaker 3: What is the quote It says all paths lead to

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God or no.

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Speaker 2: This is a statement on the relationship of Muslims to

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the Church. I can read you the both statements. Here's

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Lumingentium sixteen and I'll read no. Tate three. So this

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is the first one. It says those who have not

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yet received the Gospel are related to various in various ways.

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The people of God, in the first place, are the

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people whom we must recall to whom the Testament promises

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were given according to the flesh. So this is about

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the Jews. On account of their fathers. This people remain

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most dear to God. God does not repent of the

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gifts that he gives. And then it goes on the

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next sentences. The plan of salvation also includes those who

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acknowledge the Creator, first among whom are the Muslims who

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profess to hold the faith of Abraham and adore the

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One True God with us, the merciful God who on

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the last day will judge mankind. So that's the first

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statement from Lemagentiem sixteen that Muslims adore the One True God.

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Adoration is a term of worship in calac theology. And

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then no Stratate III statement is the Church regards with

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esteem the Muslims. They do adore the One God, living

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and subsisting in himself, merciful, all powerful, and the creator

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of heaven and earth. They take pains to submit to

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his decrees, just like Abraham, with whom the faith of

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Islam takes pleasure in Lincoln itself. So this says that

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like Abraham submitting to the One God's decrees, Islam does

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the same, and they outdoor the same God. So the

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problem is that horse Jesus says that you have to

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believe in him to have access to the Father. In

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John five through nine, he debates the Pharisees about this

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and he says that Abraham believes in me. Well, of course,

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Muslims don't believe in the Trinity, nor they believe in

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the deed to Christ. So Muslims do not have the

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same deity as Christians.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's tough.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is also why you were actually on the

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right track criticizing Francis, because Francis and Benedict and John

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Paul the Second have prayed in the mosques towards Mecca.

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Speaker 3: I know he kissed the Qur'an. I don't know why

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he did it. It's not for me to say I

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think you should debate the Diamond brothers.

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Speaker 2: Well, why wouldn't I debate people who have an actual

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like bishop or an actual anastic, you know, like taunture

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like they don't have. They don't recognize an episcop it.

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So if you are.

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Speaker 3: Like, I don't know, I guess we like.

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Speaker 2: You were saying that earlier, the Catholic Church needs a

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recognizable jurisdiction and episcopate, right, yeah, okay, Well they don't

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00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,720
have that. They're not under any bishop or episcopate, So

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by your own definition, they're not Catholic.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But they like I don't know if you would

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say this, I guess, but consider the church to be

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like a mystical body.

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Speaker 2: Well the but the yeah, I mean, that's mystical body

407
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can't be invisible church. That's the Protestant teaching, right. And

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so if you look at the papal and cyclicals like

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Mystichi Corporus or satist Cognitum, those are two famous papal

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and cyclicals, they identify the mystical body with the Roman

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Catholic Church and the pope as its head. So point

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being in all of that was just that I don't

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really think Francis does provide the unity and the guidance

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that Catholics usually refer to when they want to prove

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the papacy. I think it's a disservice actually to the unity,

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because there's no guidance on these basic moral questions. I mean,

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Francis just reversed the position from the Holy Office in

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two thousand and two or three about blessing to skittles

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people after the services, right, I know they're not married

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gay couples, but the previous question to the Holy Office

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as to whether those couples could be blessed was no.

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Francis reversed that, and to me, that's just another example

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of how the papacy is more of a geopolitical institution

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like it caves to what needs to be done at

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the time.

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Speaker 3: What about Russia, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't have a problem admitting that there's been corrupt Russian bishops.

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The Russian church was full of KGB and KVD people,

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but by the way that had a tear system. If

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you don't know, like they had tears of bishop. Based

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on the way the KGB would do it is like

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if they were really compromisable. They were in this category

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all the way down to non compromisable. So it wasn't

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like all the bishops in Russia were you know, KGB

435
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or whatever. But I mean I go to Rokor, which

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Rokorp is the people who fled Bolshevik Soviet, you know,

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white Russian seeking to get rid of it, to get

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alp from under the persecution. So it's not like a

439
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,920
black and white type of thing. But no Russian bishop

440
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is equivalent to what the papacy claims for itself. So

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when people say, well, you're saying the papsi's corrupt, but

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you got to corrup Russian bishops. Sure, but the Russian

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But nobody thinks the Russian bishop is infallible or that

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of the church or anything like what Vatican One claims.

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Speaker 3: But if anti Catholic Orthodoxy is going to define itself

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in opposition to the Catholic Church, they can't have an

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ecumenical council. The schisms are only proliferating, especially with Ukraine.

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And you know Christ says that that may they all

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be one. You know, he calls for us to be unified,

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undivided like the Trinity. And even though Orthodoxy has yeah

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preserved the Orthodox faith and the Epistolic succession, they don't

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have Catholicity.

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Speaker 2: Well again, only if you define Catholicity as numbers. But

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as I pointed out, like the numbers were not there

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in the fourth century, so.

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Speaker 3: I'm not talking about talking about like ecclesiastically.

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Speaker 2: Oh serious, Okay, Well I would say to that, like

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if you look at patriarch it's and schism. That's actually

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nothing new that existed in the early Church. You had,

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for example, the second Ecumenical Council is called Constantinople. One

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that was had out of communion with Rome. Sat Melidios

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of Antioch was the bishop, the saint who presided there.

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He died out of community with Rome. This was three

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eighty one. That council defined the Trinity for the Church

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for the rest of the church age, and Rome didn't

466
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,039
accept that council and it's teaching until many centuries later.

467
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:31,240
So you actually have an example in the early Church

468
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:36,000
of a schismatic council that teaches the dogmatic teaching on

469
00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:39,599
the Trinity and Rome later accepts it hundreds of years later.

470
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,160
That's another example of like, that's normal for the church

471
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,200
to have. I'm not saying it's good, but it's normal

472
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,279
to have those kinds of patriarchal schisms that happened. And

473
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:51,599
even the Roman system has to admit that the Second

474
00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:55,000
Acumenical Council was had out of commune with Rome, and

475
00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:57,759
Rome recognized the Saint Melia says a saint even though

476
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:00,880
he died out of community with Rome. So that for

477
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,440
us is I could proof that when you see something

478
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:06,240
like I'm not saying it's good, but when you see

479
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,759
the ep and the mp in schism, that's actually normal

480
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,680
church history. And then I would say about your claim

481
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,359
of ecumenical councils, like, there's nothing about ecumenical councils that

482
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,599
was ever promised to the church that those would forever

483
00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:24,039
guide the church. Those were imperial things that happened. That's

484
00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:27,039
why they're called by emperors. There's no ecumenical council for

485
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:30,319
three hundred years, right, so you've got until nicea, how's

486
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,599
the church governed? How does it exist? By the way,

487
00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:34,559
most of those people don't have access to the pope,

488
00:32:34,759 --> 00:32:36,240
So how are they going to know what the faith

489
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,640
is if you need the papacy. Yet people in Ephesis,

490
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:43,000
people in Corinth, people in other places outside Rome, they

491
00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,160
still understood and knew the faith and were catechized without

492
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,680
being able to access or ask questions of Rome. So again,

493
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,440
we have synods in councils that are normative for us

494
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,279
in the Orthodox Church. The Palamite synods, for example, those

495
00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:01,680
constitute our ninth Ecumenical Council. So in other words, we

496
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,920
a lot of these things are really kind of bugaboos

497
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,960
that they're kind of like nothing burgers when you really

498
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,480
get into the history of it. And lastly about schisms proliferating,

499
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,200
the Macedonian schism was just healed like a couple of

500
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,039
years ago, and that was like an eighty year Orthodox

501
00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:20,440
schism that was healed without the papacy, which is why

502
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,839
but France and not Francis Benedict said, and I think

503
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:29,119
it's introduction to Christianity. He says something like, the Orthodox

504
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,759
Church has maintained the faith for a thousand years. Well,

505
00:33:33,759 --> 00:33:35,480
then we don't need the papacy to maintain the faith

506
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,519
if we've maintained it without the papacy for a thousand.

507
00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:47,519
Speaker 3: Years, Okay, But there are inconsistencies in Eastern Orthodoxy. There's

508
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:52,960
much well the reception of converts, so well.

509
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: I can find inconsistencies in Catholics out there too, right,

510
00:33:57,559 --> 00:33:59,799
Like James Martin says that you can live any way

511
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:03,000
you want, but that really isn't a defeat for the position,

512
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:08,159
because what matters is like, what's the actual historic means

513
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,360
of reception in the Orthodox Church. It's called economia, which

514
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,760
means that you can make that flexible at the local level,

515
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,119
so there doesn't have to be one single way to

516
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,639
receive people. I'll give you one example. After the Council

517
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:28,239
of Florence, there was a synod that happened in fourteen

518
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,840
eighty four and all four of the Orthodox patriots patriarchs

519
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,559
of the East minus Rome, which was in Florence, they

520
00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:41,760
held a after Florence Council to reject Florence. And in

521
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,519
that council they said for example, that the means and

522
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:49,280
methods of receip means and methods of It's okay, it

523
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,360
means the methods of receiving converts can be by chrismation

524
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:57,800
from Rome if they abjure the Roman positions. But today,

525
00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:01,559
the reason that some Orthodox do not just default to

526
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:05,960
that is because there's Novasorto churches where they will baptize

527
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,639
people in the name of the land, the sea, in

528
00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:11,199
the air. Right, You've got some really wild now Asorto priests. No,

529
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,239
I'm serious, you can look that up. There's really wild

530
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,719
Novusorto priests that will do crazy stuff. And so some

531
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,400
Orthodox bishops and jurisdictions that receive Roman Catholics or wild

532
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,320
crazy Protestant sects, if they can't determine that there was

533
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,559
anything trinitarian even done, they might opt to have a

534
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:33,760
one size fits all policy. And it's typically in the

535
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,440
Orthodox Church left to the local jurisdiction. So it's not

536
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,760
the case that there's no consistency, it's just that it's

537
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,480
a local parish issue.

538
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I would say that the unity

539
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:53,360
of faith that's been preserved in the Eastern Greco Russian

540
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:59,639
Church is pretty abstract that there's no real evidence of

541
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,920
like solidarity when go Arch and rocurt don't even co celebrate.

542
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again, the fact that you have a removal

543
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:17,480
of one bishop or patriarchy from the other's diptychs or communion. Again,

544
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:20,440
there's many instances of that in church history. And because

545
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,159
that happens, even if you think the first thousand years

546
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:26,320
are Christianity is Roman Catholic, like, that would actually be

547
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,480
a defeater for the Roman position because if that's something

548
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:33,840
that itself is a cancels out, you know, the position.

549
00:36:34,519 --> 00:36:36,679
If you think Roman Catholicism was the Church of the

550
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,320
first thousand years, then that defeats the Roman Catholic claims

551
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,280
of the first thousand years because that existed in the

552
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,159
early Church, multiple instances of those types of patriarchal schisms

553
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:50,360
and removing from the diptychs and communion. So that didn't

554
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,880
disrupt the union of the faith, so to speak, because

555
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,679
the laity are not always held to the same requirements

556
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,760
of the bishops. So for example, Saint Melidios is still

557
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,199
a saint in the church even though he held a

558
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,440
council out of communion with Rome. Rome accepts him as

559
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,320
a Saint retroactively, and that to me shows that it's

560
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,679
the Orthodox Church that's consistent in preserving the same faith,

561
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,880
the same approach to the councils and the sacraments and

562
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:23,239
the canons, and it's Rome that deviates. I'll give you

563
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,960
one example. After the Schism, the papacy decides that the

564
00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:33,599
papacy will confirm every bishop in the world. Prior to that,

565
00:37:34,159 --> 00:37:37,400
in the Apostolic Canons and the other Conciliar documents, you

566
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,400
have the recognition that any bishop can be ordained by

567
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,559
two or three bishops or a metropolitan right and or

568
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:47,880
a metropolitan. Now it becomes the Pope decides every bishop

569
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,360
in the world. That's clearly a revolution in ecclesiology.

570
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 3: But that's no longer the case.

571
00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: No, that's still the case.

572
00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: The Eastern Catholic churches are sweet year as they're in

573
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,079
their own right and are able to argain no.

574
00:38:02,079 --> 00:38:05,199
Speaker 2: No, I mean they may be to a degree autocephalus

575
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,320
or considered that, but the Pope still has to decide

576
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,440
that he has universal jurisdiction according to Vatican One.

577
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:14,559
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's good thing.

578
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:18,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, But what I'm saying is that even if you

579
00:38:18,119 --> 00:38:22,320
think it's good it's a departure from the early tradition.

580
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,840
There's no way in the first thousand years of Christianity

581
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,920
the pope could confirm her to cite all the bishops

582
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,239
in the world. It's a well known change in ecclesiology

583
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,679
after the eleventh century.

584
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,639
Speaker 3: I'm still not so sure that that is the case.

585
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,480
That they're beholden to the head of the the See

586
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:47,039
of Peter, but they're not autocephalus. I guess they're autonomous.

587
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: Well, you're still as a Roman Catholic, even if you're

588
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,800
in a different right, if you're a Byzantine right or

589
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,119
Chaldean right or whatever, you're still bound by the teaching

590
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,199
and the jurisdiction of the Roman see for example Canon

591
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,519
forty three. The Bishop of Rome, in whom resides the office,

592
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,440
is given a special way by Peter, the first apostles

593
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,760
to be transmitted to successors and the head of the bishops.

594
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,159
This is Eastern canlaw. You're Canons right. He is the

595
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,559
vicar of Christ and the pastor of the entire Church

596
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:23,159
in virtue of his office, and thus he enjoys supreme, full, immediate,

597
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,239
universal jurisdiction and power in the Church, which he can

598
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:32,440
always freely exercise. So even Eastern Catholic canon tradition recognizes

599
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,519
that you still have to believe in the Vatican, one claims.

600
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,039
So it's not the equivalent of Otto sephially in the

601
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:42,800
Orthodox Church, which means there's no one above the church

602
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,599
except the synod.

603
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: Right, but even prior to I mean Leo the thirteenth

604
00:39:53,719 --> 00:40:00,440
in Orientolium Dignitas, another pope, Benedict with another number, they've

605
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,880
issued decrees about how to regard the Eastern churches. The

606
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:12,360
Union of Breast allowed them to preserve their theological Orthodox

607
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,639
traditions while being in communion with the true Catholic Church.

608
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's a politically minded union that offered things

609
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,719
like at Brast, the Pope said, I'll give you schools,

610
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,880
I'll educate the children, I'll pay for all this, but

611
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,079
you got to be in union with me. So it's

612
00:40:32,119 --> 00:40:38,719
a union of convenience and opportunism, which puts theology secondary. Right,

613
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,320
But for the Orthodox position like the theology is what

614
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,440
comes first, not the geopolitical promises and pragmatism of the papacy,

615
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:51,000
So that itself is proof that if the pope's telling

616
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:53,519
you that you can believe the Eastern theology, but you

617
00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:56,400
have to submit to me in terms of my supremacy.

618
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,760
That's like that right, there is a prediction because that

619
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,480
means you can't hold to the Eastern theology like the

620
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:08,960
single you know, monarchical trinitarian position that denies the fairly

621
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,000
oak what you can't believe in uncreated grace because Rome

622
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:14,639
teaches created grace. You have to believe in purgatory because

623
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:16,760
Trent teaches purgatory as well as other place. You see

624
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,800
what I'm saying, Like you have the halfway house position

625
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:20,440
doesn't work.

626
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,519
Speaker 3: But that was not the case with the Russian Greek Catholics,

627
00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:37,639
like Silovaev wrote about this extensively. They had they were

628
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,320
within Russia. They got there was no political benefit to

629
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,880
them being in communion with Rome. And it was born

630
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,920
of Russian theologians and clergy who saw a real need

631
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,280
for there to be unity with Rome. And it is

632
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,519
just orthodog see without schism.

633
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: Well, but you keep saying it's schism, but from the

634
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:08,679
Orthodox vantage point, like to be in communion with people

635
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,400
who openly teach things that are kind of crazy, like

636
00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:16,199
what Nostre taught to Ambatican two teaches like that for

637
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,800
us is not possible. For example, when you read Paul

638
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,960
or the Church Fathers, they say flee from heretics, do

639
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:24,440
not try to be in communion with them. And so

640
00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:26,920
if Francis is, for the sake of argument, a heretic,

641
00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:30,119
then from the Orthodox perspective, we would not want to

642
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:32,199
be in communion with him. And I grant you that

643
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,239
in the case of Russian Catholics, Okay, they may not

644
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,199
have had any geopolitical advantage from that, but there were

645
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,320
Jesuit missionaries that have spent many centuries, going back to

646
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,440
Ukraine in the fifteen hundreds all the way up until

647
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,000
later on eighteen seventeen eighteen hundreds, like Jesuits were really

648
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,599
trying to convert and bring Russians into Catholicism. They promulgated

649
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,639
pillioquoid based icons to do this. I mean, they were

650
00:42:56,679 --> 00:42:59,719
busy for this at this for a long time. But again,

651
00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:04,360
you can't mix oil and water. If say, the papacy

652
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,239
teaches something like created grace and the Orthodox Church teatsy is, no,

653
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,400
we participate in uncreated light life and immortality, like those

654
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,199
are two conflicting positions. Likewise, you can't have two creeds

655
00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:18,320
in the church. How could you have a church that

656
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,960
says in the one place that there is a philioquay

657
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,880
it's a double eternal hypersodic procession, And the Eastern Catholics say, no,

658
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,760
we don't accept that. We believe in a crete without aphilioque.

659
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,840
That's two rival confessions within a church. But I thought

660
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,239
you were saying, like the papacy would bring unity and clarity.

661
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think that the philioque is that big

662
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:38,360
of a deal.

663
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: Well you may not think that, but at least historically

664
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,440
it was centuries of controversies and even battles over this

665
00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:50,079
kind of stuff. So like if you, I mean, I

666
00:43:50,119 --> 00:43:52,280
could argue that it is a big deal. You can

667
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,920
see the Photius mystagogy argues why it's a big deal,

668
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,519
all the way up into Palomos writing the Treatise against

669
00:43:58,559 --> 00:44:05,480
the Phillioque. Centuries up. There's two. There's two, there's two councils.

670
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:08,679
There's a Roman Catholic Acumenical Council Lions twelve seventy four,

671
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,639
which first defines and dogmatizes the double eternal hepsite procession,

672
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:18,039
and then Florence restates that and defines it. So Rome

673
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:21,679
saw it as important enough to define it twice, and

674
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,920
the Orthodox have in response to that the Palamite Synods

675
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,239
rejecting it. So it's definitely important issue because there were

676
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,639
centuries of debate and at least councils on both sides

677
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:32,440
condemning each other.

678
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,599
Speaker 3: But all of the canonical American Orthodox bishops now are

679
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,679
basically in agreement that it was an issue of semantics, and.

680
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: There are that's not true.

681
00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 3: No, I'll send you the article. Okay, what about Maxims

682
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:52,519
the Confessor?

683
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: Maximus is as he's a In fact, I was gonna

684
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,480
tell you should read Maximus. You would like his cosmic

685
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:03,039
theology book that SBS puts out. It's a really good book.

686
00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:06,119
It's really short too. But Maximus doesn't teach the Philioquay

687
00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:09,480
teaches the single monarchical role of the Father as the

688
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,320
sole principal arcade Fountain source.

689
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: Doesn't he say that through the Sun is meant in

690
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,920
the same senses from the.

691
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 2: Sun right, So through is the Eastern. Through is the right,

692
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,800
So through is the Eastern doctrine of the eternal movement

693
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,199
and procession of the spirit and the energies. It's not

694
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,599
the equivalent of eternal double hypostatic procession, and even the

695
00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:43,639
Vatican statement on the Philioquay from a few years ago,

696
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:45,599
think it's the nineties. If you read the Vatican statement

697
00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:47,199
on it, if you scroll down to the section where

698
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:51,039
it talks about the Eastern versus Latin view, the Vatican

699
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:55,400
clarification of Philioquay admits that there is still tension precisely

700
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,880
over the position of double eternal hypostetic procession or not. So, no,

701
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,920
it's not the same. And if you want the Orthodox

702
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,280
statement on through, it's called the Tomos against John Becos,

703
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,960
and that's a condemnation of Becos's unionist position that threw

704
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:17,639
is the same thing as from Also Maximus teaches the

705
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,280
energies everywhere and although as a uniate you might believe that,

706
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,960
like the papacy, it's not really a papal teaching.

707
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: Well that's where yeah, it's a unia, I'm allowed.

708
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: So, but why would you want to unite with a

709
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:37,639
church that got the theology wrong for the last thousand

710
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:40,679
plus years? Like it doesn't make any sense, That's what

711
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,719
I'm saying, Like, why do we need Francis and his

712
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,400
whole superstructure if we're admitting by being uniates and we

713
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,440
think that that's the right theology. They got it all

714
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,119
wrong for the last thousand years, Well, because of.

715
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 3: Unity.

716
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: But the point is that he got it wrong. How

717
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,679
is he going to give us unity when he got

718
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:05,000
the theology wrong for a thousand years.

719
00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:10,679
Speaker 3: Well, the church exists in time, that's true.

720
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,079
Speaker 2: That's true.

721
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: You know, I truly believe the gates of Hell will

722
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:20,159
not triumph against it. But in time, you know, I

723
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:23,599
also believe that in the fullness of time the schism

724
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,440
will be healed and will be irrelevant ultimately. But here

725
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:37,840
on earth there's only one church that in principle has unity, and.

726
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 2: That is well again, I mean, if you if we

727
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:46,039
define unity by say the four marks, right one holy Cavogavastolic,

728
00:47:46,199 --> 00:47:49,039
that's the Creed's definition of the four marks of the Church.

729
00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:54,440
If we take those marks first of all, I would argue,

730
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:57,039
I don't see Rome actually providing the unity that it

731
00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:00,199
claims to provide, because there's a gigantic schism in the

732
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,599
Western Roman calogy church just over Vatican too, and how

733
00:48:03,639 --> 00:48:06,480
to interpret it and what it means. I don't think

734
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:09,840
that it's holy because it's pretty much caved to many

735
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:11,719
of the degeneracies that are out there and in fact

736
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,920
the Orthodox Church. If you can trast the saints between

737
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,079
the East and the west of the last say thousand

738
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:18,599
years in the Roman system, you've got a lot of

739
00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:22,679
really wild crazy stuff like Margaret Mary Ella Coquay, and

740
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,480
you know it relies on a lot of sort of

741
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:28,159
histrionic apparition. Claims to me that doesn't.

742
00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: Signs and wonders that we.

743
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: Have rude How's how am I rude about it? What

744
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:37,320
do you mean?

745
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 3: Online? I see poth the woman bleeding from her eyes, and.

746
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 2: That's that was a trackcats claim. I wasn't That was

747
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,639
his claim that some woman bleeding is like a proof

748
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,760
or something. I know that wasn't my video or I

749
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,320
was just quoting an SSPX dudes claim. Okay, so I'm

750
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,920
readed about this. Fine, I'm rude, Maxing, I'll rude my.

751
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 3: They have Marian Orthodoxy too.

752
00:49:04,559 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that.

753
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 3: To me lass, Oh, I can't hear you.

754
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 2: What I'm saying. What I'm saying is like the four

755
00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:24,320
marks in the way that Rome would interpret it, one

756
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,320
Holy Catholic Apostolic. I'm saying that I don't see the

757
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,679
modern Roman system actually producing the four marks of the Church,

758
00:49:33,039 --> 00:49:37,000
one Holy Catholic Apostolic. The way that for example, the

759
00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:40,599
Cappadocians who wrote the Creed and added one Holy Calthic Apostolic,

760
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,480
the way they conceived of it doesn't match up to

761
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:47,480
the way that Rome would conceive of one Holy Catholic Apostolic.

762
00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:50,760
Let me give an example. It's the Cappadotions like Basil

763
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,119
and Gregorness and Gregor Nazianzus that helped write that Creed

764
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,119
and add that. And if you read Basil's letters, Basil

765
00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:01,800
complains in multiple letters that during the schism in the

766
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,719
East at that time, Rome was absolutely worthless, degenerate, did

767
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,639
not provide any help, did not provide any solutions or unity,

768
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,639
in fact made it worse. So how would the person

769
00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:16,599
who under who wrote that creed understand one Holy Calocic

770
00:50:16,599 --> 00:50:20,880
Apostolic too in some way be essentially located in and

771
00:50:21,039 --> 00:50:24,079
identified with Rome? And the Roman bishop of the Roman.

772
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:34,559
Speaker 3: Sea Rome descended and Basil plead to Pope Damascus to

773
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:35,679
help resolve the area.

774
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,639
Speaker 2: Correct But in those letters Basil complaints that he made

775
00:50:39,639 --> 00:50:43,760
it worse, He didn't do anything, It was worthless. But

776
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,840
what I'm saying is that when Basil wrote the creed

777
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,639
with everyone else of the Council, they clearly didn't mean

778
00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:51,840
the way Vatican won in the papacy interpret one Holy

779
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,480
Catholic Apostolic, because they would identify that with Rome and

780
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:00,559
the Roman Sea who.

781
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 3: The Catholic Church.

782
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 2: The Roman Catholic Church would say that the four marks

783
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,880
of the Church, one Holy Catholic Apostolic are also still

784
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,840
essentially what you find in the guidance and rock foundation

785
00:51:14,039 --> 00:51:16,199
of the Roman See. And I'm saying that the people

786
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:19,360
that wrote that creed that Constantinople one in three eighty

787
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:24,400
one didn't believe that because they complained about Rome being

788
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,239
ineffectual the council and the creed was had out of

789
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,440
communion with Rome. And so there's no way that that

790
00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:35,559
is somehow the property of Rome, the four marks of

791
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:36,000
the Church.

792
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 3: But the fact that they even sought intervention from Rome.

793
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:51,000
That Canon six, as you mentioned, uses Rome to justify Alexandria,

794
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:57,159
because Rome already clearly had primacy.

795
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: Right, but primacy is not the equivalent of supremacy or universality.

796
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,360
If you look at the Alexandria document, it well, it's

797
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,000
through the Chiady document first, So this is the Roman

798
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,920
improved Chiady document. The very last statement says, and this

799
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,920
will address your question and what I think you're talking

800
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,760
about canonical appeals. So it's actually Sartica that has the

801
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,480
ability to appeal to the Bishop of Rome. So Sartica's

802
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,119
canons are three forty three. And note this is the

803
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:24,480
Roman Catholic statement on this. It says, over the centuries,

804
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,480
a number of appeals were made to the Bishop of

805
00:52:26,559 --> 00:52:29,760
Rome from the East in disciplinary matters, such as the

806
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,679
deposition of a bishop. So this is what you're referring

807
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:34,119
to with Basil. An attempt was made at the Senate

808
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:38,360
of Sartica to establish the rules for this procedure. Sartka

809
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,239
was received at the Council of Trollo. The canons of

810
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,719
Sartaka are determined that a bishop who had been condemned

811
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,000
could appeal to the Bishop of Rome, and then the latter,

812
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:51,320
if he deemed appropriate, might order a retrial. So it

813
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,719
is not the Bishop of Rome deciding, it's him allowing

814
00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,000
for a retrial, and other patriarchates could also be appealed to.

815
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,360
Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to Constantinople and

816
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,159
to other seas, so this was not a unilateral thing

817
00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:12,719
such appeals. Yes, correct Athenaious.

818
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 3: Correct, did he appeal to the Constantino?

819
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 2: I think he did at one point? Yeah, I made

820
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,519
this argument in the Mya Barro debate. Yeah, so appeals

821
00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:25,159
were made to and treat it in a sonodal way.

822
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,199
Appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from the east,

823
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,480
but the Bishop of Robe did not exercise canonical authority

824
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,000
over the churches of the East. No, wait a minute,

825
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:42,880
you said, did he appealed to constant the noble? I no,

826
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,840
I don't think he appealed to con that. No, But

827
00:53:45,039 --> 00:53:48,280
what I'm saying so, yes, he appealed to Rome because

828
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,320
Rome was first seas, so you always wanted to get

829
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,480
the first sea on your side. Uh. But when people

830
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,480
would appeal to Athenasius is what I meant to say.

831
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,199
So let me correct that, because no, Athenasian is not

832
00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:04,199
appealed to constent to noble, because concept correct, And so

833
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,679
did Saint Maximus. Right, Maximus appealed to Pope Martin because

834
00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:10,719
you always wanted to get first see on your side,

835
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,599
as well as any other seas. But what I'm saying

836
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:17,280
is that the Alexandria document is an assuming the CHI

837
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,320
eighty document is admitting in paragraph nineteen that the appellate

838
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,559
structure was not an autocratic decision of the Bishop of Rome.

839
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:28,320
In fact, let me read this part again. The Canons

840
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,880
of Sartika determined that a bishop who had been condemned

841
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:33,760
could appeal to Rome, and if the Roman bishop deemed

842
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,440
it appropriate, he could order a retrial to be conducted

843
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,400
by the bishops in the province of that bishop. So

844
00:54:42,519 --> 00:54:45,599
that's it. He's not deciding the issue. He's in a

845
00:54:45,639 --> 00:54:49,079
canonical legal way saying that you can have a retrial.

846
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,679
So that's not a Vatican one position, because Vatican one

847
00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:55,559
is the argument that the Bishop of Rome was universally

848
00:54:56,519 --> 00:54:59,039
had your universal jurisdiction over all the churches, as the

849
00:54:59,039 --> 00:55:03,119
Eastern Catholic canon law says. Right, But notice what eighty

850
00:55:03,199 --> 00:55:05,559
says at the very end, appeals to the Bishop of

851
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:08,039
Rome from the East expressed a community of the church.

852
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,039
But the Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority

853
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:13,119
over the churches of the East.

854
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:19,639
Speaker 3: He still does that.

855
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: Well, that he does, that doesn't mean that it's right

856
00:55:24,039 --> 00:55:26,239
to do that, or that he had that power that

857
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,400
would that might just constitute an abuse of power. So

858
00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:32,239
just appeal the appealing to the fact that he did

859
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,519
it doesn't prove that it's canonically correct.

860
00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:42,599
Speaker 3: But the Easterners are now out, and honestly.

861
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:47,079
Speaker 2: It's well, you can call it autonomous in the sense

862
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:49,440
that they have their own rights and whatnot, and they

863
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,400
own their own there's the full uh quote for those

864
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,960
that are in the audience if you're curious. But the

865
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:01,039
canon law of the Uniates again I think Canon forty

866
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:05,519
five or forty three, excuse me, says that you are

867
00:56:05,599 --> 00:56:08,599
subjects to the Vatican one definition of the papacy, so

868
00:56:08,679 --> 00:56:12,880
they can Rome can call that autocephalus, but it's in

869
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,360
name because you're still under Vatican one total papal supremacy.

870
00:56:18,519 --> 00:56:20,880
By the way, you've been arguing that it's papal supremacy

871
00:56:21,159 --> 00:56:25,679
for the what do you mean, You've been arguing that

872
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,320
the Uniates need the papal office. So so how are

873
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,199
you now arguing that it's autocephalss It's not an autocephalus.

874
00:56:33,559 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm saying it's autonomous.

875
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 2: Well, we're still to.

876
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: The hierarchy of the Church, but they are able to

877
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:48,320
economia style decisions about how to govern their own churches.

878
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,679
Speaker 2: That's true, but it's still you still have to accept

879
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,679
Vatican one's autocracy. So the Pope might allow you to

880
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,440
have that ability to rule yourself. But if the Pope

881
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,559
decides to step in and say, hey, all you Uniates,

882
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:04,079
you're going to have a new version of the Eastern

883
00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:06,679
Byzantine Rite Liturgy and it's going to have a guitar mass,

884
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:07,440
you have to do it.

885
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 3: I mean, that would be a problem. That would be

886
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:10,440
a problem.

887
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: But well, did you know Vatican two did start revolutionizing

888
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:15,000
the Eastern liturgies?

889
00:57:15,679 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, yeah, And I guess you know, if

890
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:26,079
you don't have acts, if you're an Orthodox and you

891
00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:31,280
you know, prefer the theology and reverence of a divine liturgy,

892
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:34,320
and you don't have access to an Eastern Catholic one,

893
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,159
then you should stay. You know, it's hard to I

894
00:57:38,199 --> 00:57:43,199
can't make a case for novo sorta. And if the

895
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:49,639
Pope treated Eastern Catholics the way he treats like SSPX

896
00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:54,920
or traditionalist Catholics, they, I mean, we would have some

897
00:57:55,039 --> 00:57:59,559
serious issues with that. And in America, in the Ruthini

898
00:57:59,639 --> 00:58:01,719
in church, there was a massive schism of the turn

899
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,559
of the century where OCA got a lot of their

900
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:12,719
parishioners from because there was not yet a Ruthenian bishop

901
00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:20,320
in America and Bishop John Ireland had a huge issue

902
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,960
with married clergy. So there have Yeah, there have been.

903
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,280
The Eastern Catholics have been mistreated by Rome. They've but

904
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,960
they the point is that Rome has made efforts to

905
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,000
rectify those mistakes.

906
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just still don't see why it's it's a

907
00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:43,599
positive thing or help. I mean you could say that, Okay,

908
00:58:43,639 --> 00:58:46,079
the MP during the Cold War, you know, that was

909
00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:49,320
a you know, Soviet KGB and infiltrated thing, and there

910
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,159
was other bishops that were in the Cold War, you know,

911
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,840
co opted or whatever. But like if you get into

912
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:58,239
and I know you liked geopolitics and this kind of stuff,

913
00:58:58,239 --> 00:59:01,280
you talk about that on your podcast, you know, I

914
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,840
like that a lot too. If you look at the

915
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,360
history of the Vatican's relationship with Western American you know,

916
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,760
geopolitical power. I mean, that's pretty much an open and

917
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:12,760
shut case if you look at Gladio, if you look

918
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,840
at John Paul, the Seconds connections with the CIA. So

919
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,840
my argument there is just that that shows us that

920
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,440
the decisions, for example, at Vatican two, when it comes

921
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,559
to nostratate or the wording of lumagentium. Those decisions were

922
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:30,679
very consciously made in a way to placate Jewish groups,

923
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:36,000
Muslim groups, Protestant groups. Protestants even helped to devise the

924
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:41,760
Novasorto liturgy. To me, that's all very like a caving,

925
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:45,000
as John the twenty third said, a jorniamento, right, like

926
00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:49,199
let's unite with the world. It clearly changed and revolutionized

927
00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:52,960
the Catholic Church. So so again like what is the

928
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,679
papacy actually giving? And you're saying, well, it's unity, But

929
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,400
if it's a unity at the cost of truth, then

930
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,360
how is it is? It's a false unity.

931
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:08,079
Speaker 3: But it's not costing Eastern Catholics truth because they're Orthodox.

932
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,559
Speaker 2: But if you have to defend and accept the teachings

933
01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:15,599
of Vatican too, which you do, then it's not Orthodox.

934
01:00:15,639 --> 01:00:16,440
That's the point.

935
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:18,679
Speaker 3: I don't have to.

936
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,039
Speaker 2: Yeah you do. What are you talking about?

937
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:28,599
Speaker 3: Look Vatican two, Yeah it was, it's been. There's been

938
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:32,320
a lot of mistakes and the Nova Sorto is experimental

939
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:39,519
in an experimental day. And yeah, part of the reason

940
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:44,760
why I just changed rights was because I mean, not

941
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:50,159
only did I feel that like a nova's Orto mass

942
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:52,800
resonated with me. I also didn't particularly care for like

943
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:57,599
a Latin Mass, and like I said, I have a

944
01:00:57,679 --> 01:01:01,719
Slavic soul. So it just makes sense.

945
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's why you'll eventually, I think, move towards Orthodoxy,

946
01:01:05,199 --> 01:01:09,800
because if you look at for example, there's about five

947
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,360
places that I've found. There might be even more, but

948
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,400
there are five places in Roman Catholic dogma where you can't,

949
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,840
like not believe Vatican two. I'll give those two.

950
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 3: You can't, we will make you a heretic.

951
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:32,199
Speaker 2: Well you just said you don't believe it. I thought

952
01:01:32,239 --> 01:01:34,440
you just I don't believe.

953
01:01:36,199 --> 01:01:37,199
Speaker 3: I have some critique.

954
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so you do accept Vatican.

955
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,079
Speaker 3: Too, I supporting it in any.

956
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: Sure enough? Fair enough? Well, I mean, do you want

957
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,079
to do some super chats? We got a lot of

958
01:01:51,079 --> 01:01:52,840
super jets here. Do you want to keep going? Uh,

959
01:01:53,039 --> 01:01:55,320
it's up to you. I could. I never get tired

960
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,840
of talking about this stuff. But there's a ship time.

961
01:01:59,599 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 3: Happy.

962
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,719
Speaker 2: So I was at this juncture in two thousand and

963
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,079
seven or eight, and I read his book back then

964
01:02:08,599 --> 01:02:09,920
when I was trying to figure out whether I want

965
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:13,039
to be Orthodox or UNI eight. So I had a

966
01:02:13,039 --> 01:02:16,760
phase of being interested in uniate stuff. But are you

967
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,519
you're cool with super chats?

968
01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:20,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do it.

969
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,519
Speaker 2: Okay. I appreciate you coming on a great conversation. I

970
01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:26,320
wouldn't mind interviewing you about like your other stuff too

971
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:27,559
sometimes if you're down for that.

972
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 3: I just watched my movie honestly.

973
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:34,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean can I have three books now on Hollywood?

974
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:34,639
You know that?

975
01:02:36,679 --> 01:02:37,679
Speaker 3: Yeah?

976
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,519
Speaker 2: Would you read those? Are you too busy? I'll send

977
01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:40,519
them to if you want to read them?

978
01:02:41,159 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 3: Sure?

979
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:46,039
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I love you know, film symbolism, film breakdowns.

980
01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:51,400
So let's see. We got GB fars me fifty dollars,

981
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,400
he says, belated tip for the excellent intelligence agencies in

982
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,000
the Church episode do you did? Thank you man? I

983
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,159
appreciate that. DC woodworking three dollars says nothing. Brayden Morris

984
01:03:01,199 --> 01:03:06,320
five bucks says nothing. Jordaane fifty bucks says. In God

985
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,639
Logic's livestream today about twenty minutes in, a Muslim said

986
01:03:09,679 --> 01:03:12,519
that Vatican two shows that Jesus is a Muslim since

987
01:03:12,639 --> 01:03:17,239
Rome believes they have the same God. Well, that's a fallacy,

988
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,360
but that's a funny line of argumentation. And by the way,

989
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,079
if you want to pop in here, feel free. Who

990
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:25,280
knows it's probably it's just a random call in, So

991
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,679
he does a call in thing, so mean Eugene. Five dollars,

992
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,960
Jay Dyer Rumble in the Jungle twenty twenty five. I

993
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,480
don't know what that means. Tribe called Jake. Five dollars, Jay,

994
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,280
you're getting cooked and she's smoking American spirits. I like

995
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:44,599
to you know, she's got Virginia slims, so basically she's

996
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:53,360
no well. Emmanuel became a member for two months. Thanks man,

997
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,719
I appreciate that. He says, add more smugness, you mean

998
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,760
me or her? Roll Stakes became a member for twelve

999
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:06,119
months and says it's cigarette time Ao. Two pounds appeal

1000
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:09,880
to big cigarette fallacy. I like it, slow boy, whiteboard.

1001
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,960
Two dollars. She is an airhead. Let's be nice. Let's

1002
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:15,800
not be me to Noublet.

1003
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,719
Speaker 3: Two dollars make you underestimated.

1004
01:04:20,719 --> 01:04:23,199
Speaker 2: I didn't. I mean I thought you had some you've

1005
01:04:23,239 --> 01:04:29,039
been learning. I appreciate that. To double at two dollars

1006
01:04:29,559 --> 01:04:34,159
appeal to frenzy of fallacy. Uh Rachel Wilson became a

1007
01:04:34,199 --> 01:04:37,000
member for two months. Other women who attempt to debate

1008
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,519
and turn out to be clueless with insane vocal fry

1009
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:43,480
embarrass me. Well, I think she's been she's been nice

1010
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,280
about it, so let's be nice about Brandon Morris.

1011
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 3: Say what she should debate someone?

1012
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 2: Then Rachel's a big debater. She does debate Braden Morris.

1013
01:04:55,519 --> 01:04:59,400
Five dollars. Why is she rising you? Well, why wouldn't

1014
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,000
she look at me? Look at this? Who?

1015
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:02,119
Speaker 1: What?

1016
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:07,559
Speaker 2: Everybody rises me? Sincere hypocrite became a member for two months?

1017
01:05:07,679 --> 01:05:09,840
I wonder if she holds to the papal minimalist position

1018
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,679
in order to justify being Catholic when she sees errors

1019
01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:15,599
in the pope. That's a good question. Would you say

1020
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:16,840
you're a papal minimalist?

1021
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 3: Sounds like sounds like a.

1022
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,039
Speaker 2: Hushed tones. Two dollars. We can fix her, convert her

1023
01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:28,960
from phronsia taint nothing five bucks. I'm sensing, girl brain.

1024
01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:32,079
Can we play her at two x speed? You'all be

1025
01:05:32,199 --> 01:05:35,320
nice now, Evan two forty nine. She's not bad at debating,

1026
01:05:35,639 --> 01:05:39,440
but she's very busy mewing to numble at two dollars.

1027
01:05:39,519 --> 01:05:42,239
This is a trap. Something that doesn't feel right. Tribe

1028
01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:45,320
called Jake. Five dollars. Send her to the shadow real

1029
01:05:46,159 --> 01:05:50,360
Orthodox for theesis five dollars, healing begins in the Orthodox Church.

1030
01:05:50,519 --> 01:05:53,199
I hope Dasha will eventually visit Advine liturgy or a

1031
01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:57,119
vesper's service. Have you ever been to Orthodox divine lergy?

1032
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,519
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm getting married to an Orthodox person. I've attended

1033
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:06,360
many Orthodox services, many different churches.

1034
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,199
Speaker 2: And why don't you just go with him to the church.

1035
01:06:14,559 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 3: Because I'm Catholic.

1036
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you believe it's the same.

1037
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,119
Speaker 3: Like, well, they would don't won't give me communion?

1038
01:06:23,119 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: Oh?

1039
01:06:23,599 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 3: But Orthodox people communion? I see, because actually grieves se

1040
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,320
what Catholics grieve, Discism grieve.

1041
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 2: I see, well, I a grieve it too. It's while

1042
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,440
we're over here, always trying to convert Catholics. But roll

1043
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,960
stakes five dollars, Daniel Dyer, your your chat is melting

1044
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:55,280
into an entire I can fix her simp swamp fest well,

1045
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,480
Emmanuel twenty Mexicans, he can be twenty Mexican dollars. If

1046
01:06:59,639 --> 01:07:02,199
at the Mugnus fails try to be cute. I think

1047
01:07:02,199 --> 01:07:06,239
he's referring to me James five pounds future. Why mom,

1048
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,079
she's tried to tempt you. Stay strong, Alder. If she's

1049
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:12,119
married to Orthodox dude, she's on the right path, right,

1050
01:07:12,159 --> 01:07:14,400
so she's gonna be She's she's doing the right thing.

1051
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,840
Alderbana two bucks. I just want to meet new people

1052
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,760
and do cool things. That's Matthew mcconnie. Jubb became a

1053
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,360
member for two months. What's up? Blow in the Dark?

1054
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:30,400
Lynton Demons, Zach Hope thirty not thirty. A's jay has

1055
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,800
never been this gracious. That's not true. I've done tons

1056
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,960
of debates. I try to be nice informal debates. If

1057
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:43,239
it's informal, I get mean exactly, it's a Yakubian syop

1058
01:07:43,679 --> 01:07:47,840
Evan two forty nine, Lana del Rey Cringe, Max Buddy

1059
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,719
yp one hundred ars. I hope that's like close to dollars,

1060
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,639
because I don't know what a hundred rs is. But

1061
01:07:53,199 --> 01:07:55,880
usually when I get a weird currency with ars in

1062
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,000
front of it, it's like two dollars, it's like two

1063
01:07:59,039 --> 01:08:00,440
dollars English American?

1064
01:08:00,639 --> 01:08:04,159
Speaker 3: What is this is? How you make money is through

1065
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:05,360
these super chats.

1066
01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:08,599
Speaker 2: It's one form of making money. So I have other

1067
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,960
means of making moneys. But it's a it's amy car,

1068
01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:17,960
it's real currency. Yes, you're not familiar with super chats.

1069
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 3: I see plent tays do it, but I don't really

1070
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:20,840
get it.

1071
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 2: Basically, they send money to ask questions, but sometimes it's

1072
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,359
a weird foreign currency like ars. I don't even know

1073
01:08:27,399 --> 01:08:32,640
what that is. Ar Buddy says, I'm giving j a

1074
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,039
solid fifty years of age. I don't know what that means.

1075
01:08:35,079 --> 01:08:37,479
I'm not fifty two. Me and Eugenie two dollars. You

1076
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:40,840
cannot call J anymore a mean person because he was nice.

1077
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:45,520
There we go. Georgia's too props to Jay for acting

1078
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,760
very serious. Is this not serious? I don't what do

1079
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:55,119
you mean? Cards two dollars appeal to the blazed off

1080
01:08:55,319 --> 01:08:59,479
pyramid dank fallacy. That's referring to my yakub memes. Evan

1081
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:03,279
two forty on mods. Please ban all the simps. Edward

1082
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:06,159
Trotter five dollars says nothing. Braden Morris two dollars. This

1083
01:09:06,199 --> 01:09:09,800
is the real KGB sorcerer, exactly, Punk talking about me.

1084
01:09:10,239 --> 01:09:15,000
Punk giver twenty czks check money. We know that ain't

1085
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:19,159
worth nothing. Papa France is throwing big guns today. Francis

1086
01:09:19,159 --> 01:09:24,560
sent you apparently storm mode ten pounds. When's the debate start?

1087
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,960
It already started? What are you talking about theories or

1088
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:34,399
see me Punk Giver twenty Yeah, Punk Giver twenty check

1089
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,119
theories master. J H. Browsie five dollars. She's got an

1090
01:09:39,159 --> 01:09:42,399
e date and debate mixed up at some point. Ed

1091
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:49,159
Trotter two dollars at midnight. Climax, uh Agnostic Kuzamachi five dollars.

1092
01:09:49,199 --> 01:09:53,159
My worlds are colliding. This is a crossover episode that's yeah,

1093
01:09:53,239 --> 01:09:56,840
exactly epic right Bumblebee twenty bucks. This was a fun

1094
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,880
debate to watch. Thank you. Rachel Wilson five dollars. Pro

1095
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:05,199
tip for Dasha troll your hair, giggle, show your bear knee.

1096
01:10:06,279 --> 01:10:12,439
They're not good debate tactics. Yes, Punk Giver, this is

1097
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,800
literal pillow talk. Alex Oric two dollars, says nothing, David

1098
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:22,000
Arabic script, bunch of gibber jabb that it's five dollars.

1099
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,239
I heard Bronze Age Mindset is an interesting book. You

1100
01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:29,000
have thoughts, I've not read it. Sonia K ten dollars.

1101
01:10:29,039 --> 01:10:31,760
I like you, Jay Well, Thank you Sonia K. Or

1102
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:37,680
should I say son Jack? Alex Oric two dollars Phrnsia

1103
01:10:38,119 --> 01:10:45,920
and sig fallacy. Jamie definitely mops beds. Half of these

1104
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:47,600
super chats. I don't know what you are talking about,

1105
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:52,239
bez deell Nick five dollars. The rational Anglo cannot comprehend

1106
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:57,000
the whimsical, superstitious Slavic mind, that is the superchat that

1107
01:10:57,079 --> 01:11:00,720
summarizes the whole thing. Yes, my rational anger mind is

1108
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,960
mystified by the whimsical slavic mind made by Jim Bob

1109
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:11,079
ten dollars. L's in the chat for boodles. What is that?

1110
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:13,079
Is that a person in the town alex or five dollars.

1111
01:11:13,119 --> 01:11:17,560
I would debate this chicken my sleep marboroughs lingual inquirer

1112
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,079
five dollars. Jay will not debate old calendar. It's just

1113
01:11:21,199 --> 01:11:24,880
boring debate Carmaggio ten dollars. There as several saints cannot

1114
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,960
be reconciled between the two churches. For example, Joseph fought

1115
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:32,640
Kuntsevich and Alexander Nevsky both fought the opposite sides. That's

1116
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:37,239
that's an interesting point, since there hypocrite. Ha, what a boomer?

1117
01:11:37,359 --> 01:11:40,279
Oh he got me, he got me Not a boomer,

1118
01:11:40,319 --> 01:11:42,960
but I'll take it. I'm the father of boomer jokes.

1119
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,720
Eto Tolkien five dollars, jam sending this in the monopoly

1120
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:53,359
money designed five dollars. H Okay, this is a good one, Dasha.

1121
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:56,640
Is it true that Charlie XCX wrote Me and Girls

1122
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:57,000
about you?

1123
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,159
Speaker 3: I was part of the inspiration for it.

1124
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:08,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go, bust down a jubilee one dollar Dasha,

1125
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,239
listen to this. This is a deconstruction of your worldview.

1126
01:12:11,279 --> 01:12:18,000
Sorry not sorry? Hey, I have your ex linked in

1127
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:19,720
the show description. If you guys would like to go

1128
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,159
ahead and follow Dasha any closing comment statements, ideas things

1129
01:12:24,159 --> 01:12:24,960
you want to leave us with.

1130
01:12:28,159 --> 01:12:34,680
Speaker 3: I have a brief quote from Slovaka. He says that

1131
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,000
the East has truth but no order. The West has

1132
01:12:38,159 --> 01:12:41,760
order but needs the east soul. Unity is the divine Well,

1133
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:45,319
all right.

1134
01:12:45,279 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 2: We can take that Solova have quote to heart and

1135
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:53,840
we got one last supertest, Chase. Chase says, for two dollars, Dasha,

1136
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:57,399
what proof would you need to be Orthodox?

1137
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:07,279
Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess there isn't any. I think

1138
01:13:07,319 --> 01:13:09,279
if God wanted me to be Orthodox, he could have

1139
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:11,159
easily made me Orthodox.

1140
01:13:12,159 --> 01:13:14,720
Speaker 2: What if this conversation is one of those means.

1141
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 3: I was baptized Catholic.

1142
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 2: Okay, well, so if I was baptized Hindu, so sh

1143
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:29,640
remain Hindu? Or not, I mean no, but okay, all right,

1144
01:13:30,079 --> 01:13:33,119
So do you anything you want to plug? Any projects

1145
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,760
you got coming up you want to plug? People should check.

1146
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:42,399
Speaker 3: Out my podcast Red Scare. Maybe we'll try to implement

1147
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,600
some kind of super chat. But we are on Patreon,

1148
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:49,399
Patreon dot com, slash red Scar.

1149
01:13:50,319 --> 01:13:52,399
Speaker 2: Do you not do any of your stuff on YouTube?

1150
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:54,640
Is it too edgy? Or like? What's how come y'all

1151
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:55,119
aren't there?

1152
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,520
Speaker 3: We don't have the executive function to pivot to video,

1153
01:13:59,039 --> 01:14:03,800
but are curious about it. Yeah. Also, I made a

1154
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:08,279
movie called The Scary of sixty First that if fans

1155
01:14:08,319 --> 01:14:12,000
of yours might enjoy. It deals with kind of conspiracy

1156
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,439
and satanic influence.

1157
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: Oh definitely. Would you come back and do an interview

1158
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about that and your other art projects?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Awesome judgmental Cat five dollars, Lumbago ten dollars, bro. My

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love for Yakub is cosmic, straight up dank vibes. I'm

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token on that, Primo Kush Yakub's chill mega mind. I'm

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riding with you, you know, total meltdown dude. Thanks man, that

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was a wild super chat. Jay Russ