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Speaker 1: Kalarogu Shock Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey there, I'm Johnny Mack, and on Saturdays this summer,

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I'm doing deeper dives on single topics. Today, let's talk

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a little about Joe Rogan. And the thing that gets

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lost in every conversation about Joe Rogan is that he's

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a comedian, that was a comedian, is a comedian. Now

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you might not think he's the best comedian. Maybe he's not,

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but he's a comedian. The way he runs the podcast,

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the way he talks to guests, the way he thinks

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about things, the way he's built the whole thing. It's

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all shaped by being a comedian. And what I mean

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by that is his whole career was shaped by being

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in rooms. We're the only thing that matters is whether

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something's actually interesting or actually funny. You can't fully understand

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the Joe Rogan experience without understanding that the person at

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the center of the Joe Rogan experience thinks like a comedian,

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which means he thinks about authenticity the way most media

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executives think about ratings, which is to say, it's the

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only metric that actually matters to him. And a lot

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of times those two things are in opposition. TV never

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quite figured out what to do with Rogan. He did

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News Radio, remember that. Yeah, it's a funny show. People

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remember it fondly. He was good in it, but he's

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not the thing you think about when you think about

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news radio. He was a comedian doing TV rather than

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a TV person. Then he did Fear Factor. It's its

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own strange chapter, a show that was watched by tens

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of millions of people, made him a household name in

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a very specific way. Fear Factor, Joe Rogan and Joe

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Rogan experienced Joe Rogan are the same person if you

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look closely enough. But the mainstream audience that knew him

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from Fear Factor had no reason to think he was

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going to become the most influential media property in the

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next two decades. Joe Rogan was the guy who made

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people eat bugs.

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Speaker 3: This is so wrong. Come on, this is for your charity.

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Might be a little bitter, but go for it.

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Speaker 4: It's free charity.

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Speaker 3: Does it taste like? Yeah, don't tell us what it

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tastes like.

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Speaker 2: What they missed and all that was Joe Rogan's genuine

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intellectual curiosity. I was recently listening to the episode with

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Michelle Faller at a point, So I was one of

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if Joe had checked out, and then I realized no,

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he was just taking it all in as they talked

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about the space and science of a great episode.

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Speaker 3: If the Earth was the dot of an eye in

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a book in regular print, that the Milky Way Galaxy

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would be as large as the Earth itself.

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Speaker 1: Actually a little bigger.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean the thing is, this is an interesting

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thing about science communication. If the Sun were the size

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of a dot of an eye, and you've got to remember,

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you can fit a million earths inside the Sun.

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Speaker 3: This is a huge thing.

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Speaker 1: So if that's the size of a dot of an

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eye and untext, then the galaxy would be the size

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of the Earth. That's when people's eyes get big and people.

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Speaker 3: Respond to so it's not just the Earth the sun.

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So if the Sun was the.

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Speaker 1: Dot of an eye, yeah, that's right. So make this clear.

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So the Sun were the size of a dot of

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an eye on a page of text, so you could

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fit a million earths inside that dot of an eye,

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then the Milky Way Galaxy would be bigger than the Earth.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So if the Earth was the dot of an eye,

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then because the Sun is how many millions earths.

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Speaker 1: The volume wise, you could fit over a million earths

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inside the sun.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the sun is about eight hundred thousand miles across.

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You could fit about one hundred and ten earths across

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it the diameter.

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Speaker 3: We do those things where you show the differences between

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our sun and different stars and immense stars, and you

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go bigger and bigger and bigger, and you get to

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the point where you're like, I can't this is not working.

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Get I can't process this. It's too coooky.

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Speaker 1: There's nobody that can process it.

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Speaker 2: The Joe Rogan Experience, Episode number one, guest Brian Redband,

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December twenty fourth, two thousand and nine. What an interesting

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time to launch a show. Christmas Eve now two thousand

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and nine is early. We only got iPhones in two

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thousand and seven. And if you were into podcasts in

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those early days, and I was, you couldn't actually download

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a podcast to your phone. You had to get it

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on your laptop and then connect your phone with a

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cord to the laptop and move some podcasts over. So

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back in those early days, when I was listening to

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things like this or a Hardwick an artist, you had

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to like really do it.

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Speaker 4: Start broadcast and then update, update to Twitter, and then

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I always like to watch my own channel, so let's

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go to your own channel so you can see what

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the chat is and then update year internet tonight, update

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my own or go through the faster one. You're gonna

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get addicted to. Oh nice colors.

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Speaker 2: Pretty So two thousand and nine is pretty early to

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start a podcast, and a lot of the people that

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really were the big names did start early. That's not

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to take away from them, but there's obviously an advantage

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to being an early adopter. You know, Maren definitely was

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an early adopter, again, not taking away from anyone. So

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two thousand and nine, the idea that a podcast could

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be a primary media property that can compete with TV

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or radio ad dollars, Yeah, we couldn't even do. It's

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called dynamic insertion. Now, like you know, if you're in

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I don't know, if you're listening to Portugal, serve you

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local ads targeted at you in Portugal back in the day.

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And I started podcasting in twenty fifteen, which was kind

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of the start of round two. The ogs give us

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a lot of crap for getting in late, but you know,

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here eleven years later, I feel like I got in early. Anyway,

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you couldn't do dynamic insertion advertising. You had to actually

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bake the ads in. But Rogan wasn't thinking about a

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media company. He was thinking about it as a comedian

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who wanted to have long conversations with interesting people and

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had figured out a way to record and distribute those

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conversations for free. The early episodes of the Joe Rogan

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Experience or a document of someone figuring out a format

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in real time. They're loose. They have a feeling of

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someone who's experimenting rather than executing. Early guests are people

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who were part of the La comedy ecosystem that Rogan

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was part of. The early episodes have the energy of

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a thing that doesn't yet know where it's going. Where

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nobody's performing for an audience, because the audience is a

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little smart enough that performing for it would feel absurd. Now,

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if you look back at who Rogan had on and when,

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you can get a map before the culture was heading,

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before the mainstream caught up. He had Elon Musk one

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in twenty eighteen, before Musk had become the figure he

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is now. You know, a cool scientist guy that's going

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to build a mores Base. Well the electric car is

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that guy? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yes. I think one of the issues with social media

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that's been pointed out by many people is that, I think,

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maybe particularly Instagram, people look like they have a much

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better life than.

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Speaker 2: They really do.

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Speaker 5: Right, So, by design, yeah, people are posting pictures of

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when they're really happy. They're modifying those pictures to be

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better looking. Even if they're not modifying the pictures, they're

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at least selecting the pictures for the best lighting, the

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best angle. So people basically seem they're way better looking

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than they basically really are, right, And they're way happier

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seeming than they really are. So if you look at

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everyone on Instagram, you might think, man, they're only happy,

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beautiful people, and I'm not that looking, and I am

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not happy.

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Speaker 2: That conversation got watched and shared in a way that

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a TV interview never would have because it was three

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hours long and Rogan let must be weird and interesting

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instead of trying to fit him into a seven minute window.

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Rogan had on Bernie Sanders, he had on Kanye he

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had scientists, fighters, comedians, authors, conspiracy theorists, doctors who disagreed

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with other doctors, and he treated all of them more

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or less the same way, which to say he was

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genuinely curious about what they thought and asked follow up

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questions and didn't try to trap anyone to score points.

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That format, long curious, non adversarial, was unusual in the

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media in the early twenty ten still unusual today. Cable

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news had trained everyone to expect conflict and interruption. Talk

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shows were in seven minute segments. Even in PR, had

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you know that? NPR kind of air to it that

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shaped how the questions got asked and how you answered.

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Rogan didn't have any of that. He had a comedians framework,

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which is what's interesting here and how do we get

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to it? Those are different questions what a journal leuts asked,

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and they produce different conversations. And part of the audience

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that found the Joe Rogan experience did so because they

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were hungry for that kind of conversation and weren't finding

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it anywhere else. Personally, it's why I love the show.

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Joe is genuinely curious. Sometimes I don't agree with anything

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he's saying or what the guest is saying, but I

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always find the conversations interesting to listen to because they're calm.

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Let's talk about the comedians. When Joe Rogan had Bill

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Burr on, those conversations functioned as a masterclass and how

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comedians think about their work. Same with Louis c k,

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same with Chappelle. They weren't promotional appearances. The guests were

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there to talk about comedy in the road, what it's

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like to do the thing they do, and they talked

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for as long as the conversation was interesting. By twenty

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fifteen or so, the podcast was the biggest in the

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world by any meaningful measurement, still considered to be the

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number one podcast. The advertising model was working. Rogan was

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doing host red ads. Advertisers were paying for them because

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the audience was enormous and loyal in a way that

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podcast audiences tend to be. But the mainstream media was

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still condescending, treating the Joe Rogan experience as a curiosity,

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still not reckoning with the fact that what people were

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listening to Rogan every week then were watching most cable

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news programs. The industry was still writing think pieces about

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whether or not podcasts were a real medium. Comedians understood

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what Joe had built. A Rogan appearance moved tickets in

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a way that a late night appearance no longer did.

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Getting on Rogan was the thing, not getting on Conan

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or Kimmel or Comedy Central. Rogan. Some of the comedians

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who arguably Joe made their career, Sigora Kreischer, Andrew Schultz,

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She and Gillis. Then the Spotify deal in twenty twenty

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one hundred million dollars later reported to be closer to

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two hundred million for exclusive rights to the Joe Rogan experience.

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Suddenly the media was like, hey, wait, what a guy's

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talking to people in a studio is worth two hundred

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million dollars to Spotify. Don't forget. Spotify is a company

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that has access to data about podcasts listening and made

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that deal with full information about what they were buying.

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Rogan was eleven years in At that point. It wasn't

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a bet on what he might become. It was an

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acknowledgment of what he was reading. He was the largest

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and most influential audio media property in the world. Built

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without a network, without a studio, without a development deal,

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no big company behind it, just a comedian who wanted

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to have conversations with interesting people and figured out how

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to distribute them. That deal did create some friction. People

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would listen to the podcast on their regular app, now

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how to listen to it on Spotify. That's when I

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started listening a little less because I don't love the

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Spotify app. Also, the show was moved off YouTube at

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that point, so there's some audio disruption. I know, personally,

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if I heard enough buzz on an episode, I'd go

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listen to it on Spotify. But you know, for the

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most part, I skipped a lot of those years. Then

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covid comes along and some controversies. Neil Young pulled his

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music from Spotify to protest Joe Rogan's COVID episodes. That

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became a whole cultural moment. In early twenty twenty two,

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there were calls for Spotify to drop Rogan entirely. Spotify

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stock dropped Spotify put Good Content Advisor on some episodes.

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They issued a statement they kept the deal intact. The

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cultural pressure that was supposed to make Rogan radioactive basically

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no effect on the one thing Spotify cared about, which

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was whether or not people kept pressing play. Eventually, the

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Spotify deal was redone so that you can now listen

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to the show on any app or on YouTube. Just

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like we did in olden times. And then there's the

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political aspect to this. Joe always had on political guests,

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for example, Bernie Sanders. In twenty twenty, politicians realized they

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could reach young men who don't watch cable news, who

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don't read political newspapers. By twenty twenty four, the show

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had become something that presidential campaigns felt they needed to

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engage with. At least one of them did. Donald Trump

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came on in October twenty twenty four, sat with Rogan

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for three hours. No prepared questions, no handler, no seven

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minute segments, just Rogan and Trump talking the way Rogan

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talks to everyone, with genuine curiosity and without the adversarial

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framework that defines most political interviews.

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Speaker 6: It was really like two different lives. You know. I

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had a very wonderful life, but I wanted to do this.

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The Apprentice was still going very strong. We had twelve seasons,

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and we had actually fourteen seasons twelve years over.

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Speaker 3: They had a couple, well, they canceled The Apprentice when

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you were running for president.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 6: No, they had Arnold Schwarzenegga do it. I was involved

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in that, and I had enough of it, and we

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did great. It was doing great, but they wanted me

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to stay. They all came to see me. They said,

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we're going to give you a contract. They wanted to

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extend my contract. Mark Burnett is a great guy. Then

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they wanted to extend the contract. Mark said, you're crazy.

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Don't run. Don't run. Nobody gives up prime time. They said,

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you know, it's one of those little things, which is

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probably true.

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Speaker 3: Nobody gets for the most time for being president.

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Speaker 6: For running well, for running against twenty some ORed people,

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you know. It turned out to be eighteen eighteen professional people,

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you know, mostly politicians.

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Speaker 2: The episode got something like forty million views in the

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first few days. Meanwhile, Kamala Harris's campaign made the decision

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not to go on Rogan. In October of twenty twenty five,

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Harris told the Diary of a CEO podcast, I wanted

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to do Joe Rogan Show, and there were a lot

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of games being played, but I wanted to do Rogan Show.

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There was some claim in a book that the Harris

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campaign had rearranged her schedule for a possible appearance on

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the show, but were told that Joe was taking a

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personal day, which turned out to be the same day

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Rogan interview. Trump. Rogan fired back, saying Harris and her

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team never agreed to an appearance on the podcast. Joe

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also said that the Harris team wanted him to travel

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from Austin to New York to do the interview. On

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The Joe Rogan Experience, Joe said he wanted to do

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Trump and Harris on the same day. That was my goal.

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I even offered to do it late that same night,

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the night Trump came on. I'm like, what if we

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do her while she's in Houston, if she came here,

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But no one ever committed to doing it. This is

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really important because they keep pretending like I lied. Harris

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said on a subsequent podcast appearance that she wanted to

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go on Rogan show but was advised not to because

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they assumed. As it turned out to be correct. It

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says the quote that he was supporting Trump and that

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it would not be a productive piece for me. But

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just like when I went on Fox News with Brent Beher,

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my perspective was they might have their bias, but there

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are people who listen who are open minded, and I'm

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going to go there and give them a chance to

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get to know me and make my case to them.

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So that was my perspective on Joe Rogan, just like

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it was from my perspective on Fox. She concluded of

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the topic, I definitely regret that we didn't do it.

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You start a podcast in two thousand and nine because

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you want to talk to your comedian friends for three hours.

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Fifteen years later, presidential campaigns are making strategic decisions about

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whether or not to appear on your show. Joe Rogan

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experience still number one. You can comment on this episode

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in the Facebook group Daily Comedy News Podcast Group, or

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on Spotify. Comments are open. Also, listen to this program

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on Spotify, become a follower, and turn on notification so

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you never miss an episode. I'll be back tomorrow with

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a normal episode of Daily Comedy News. Enjoy the rest

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of your day.