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Nobercessary quiet host. 46 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:19.840 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 47 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:22.960 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 48 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:29.159 written about him Gasey Bundy, Stahmer The Night Stalker VTK. 49 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:33.840 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 50 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.000 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 51 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:52.400 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Hello, this is 52 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.080 your host Dan Zupaski for the program True Murder, The 53 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.120 most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors 54 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:02.000 that have written about them. On November thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, 55 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:05.159 in Florida, a man was shot four times by a naked, 56 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:09.599 heart faced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, agonizing death 57 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.319 while the woman stripped him of his valuables and drove 58 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.439 his Cadillac back to the motel where her lesbian lover 59 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:19.960 was waiting. In nineteen ninety, her killing spree kicked into 60 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.719 high gear. Were three men slain in three weeks. Of 61 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.439 the six of seven male victims whose bodies were found, 62 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.719 some were nude, all had been robbed and shot dead. 63 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.159 In January nineteen ninety one, pawnshop records led to the 64 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:39.680 arrest of Aileen Carol Warnos, a k A. Lee An abusive, 65 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.520 alcoholic man hater with a murderous hair trigger temper. Tired 66 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:47.759 of turning twenty dullar tricks and often being abused, Warnos 67 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:51.000 decided to rob her customers of everything they had, including 68 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.240 their lives. Her arrest and trial prompted a worldwide media 69 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.080 frenzy and even an Academy Award winning movie Monster. In 70 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:03.080 the end, Warnos received six separate death sentences. Lethal Intent 71 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.719 is the definitive account of a killer who confounded the 72 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.800 profiling experts, forever changing their concepts of the crimes of 73 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.000 which a woman is capable. My guest today is journalist 74 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:18.360 and author Sue Russell, discussing her true crime classic lethal Intent, 75 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:21.399 the shocking true story of one of America's most notorious 76 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.319 female serial killers. Welcome to the program, Sue Russell, and 77 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:26.800 thank you for agreeing to this interview. 78 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.079 Good morning, Dan, Thank you for having me on the show. 79 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:33.639 Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure and I'm 80 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:38.439 sure our audiences as well. Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain. 81 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:39.000 Now. 82 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.360 First off, this is a question that's always intrigues me 83 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.800 and I always ask it of all guests. You are, 84 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:49.079 give you a little bit of a background to our audience. 85 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:53.959 You're an internationally syndicated journalist and author, a past editor 86 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.800 of Women Magazine, a Woman Magazine, and a regular contributor 87 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.399 to various British and US publications. You've written about the 88 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.000 beauty industry and co authored The Star Mothers The Moms 89 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.399 Behind the Celebrities. Now, what was it about the Alien 90 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.360 Warno's case? Because you've written about so many diverse cases, 91 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.680 what was it about the Alien Warno's case specifically that 92 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.839 compelled you to write not only Lethal Intent but also 93 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:22.600 Damsel of Death, both about Alien Warnos. What was it 94 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.759 about Alien Warnos and her case that interested you so much? 95 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:30.680 Well, I'd written a lot of crime stories and features 96 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.199 on related issues about crime, and I was dying to 97 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.800 write a true crime book No pun intended. And the 98 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.319 minute I heard about Eileen, of course, my is pricked 99 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:45.920 up because it was such an extraordinary taste. It was 100 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.160 such an amazing piece of news that was coming across 101 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:56.040 the wise, this woman being arrested with all these casualties 102 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.560 of her at the end of her twenty two caliber 103 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:07.000 gan and it was in modern day times, unprecedented, and 104 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:11.600 she defied the definitions of a serial killer. You know, 105 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.759 as outlined by the FBI. So it just seemed crazy 106 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.759 not to just immediately jump up and say, okay, this 107 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.920 is the one I have to write this book. I 108 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:25.879 felt very much interested in women's violence. I've written about 109 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:31.800 women as victims of violence, and this was just too 110 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.759 good to pass up in terms of being such a 111 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:37.040 fascinating story. 112 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.240 Dan, Right now, I'm a little bit confused. Maybe you 113 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.839 can tell our audience you wrote Damsel of Death and 114 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:48.199 in also Lethal Intent are the two separate books? 115 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:52.800 Told us. I'm glad you asked that, because it does 116 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.439 confuse people somewhat. What happened was I wrote Damsel of 117 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:01.560 Death first for England and Australia. As you may be 118 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:03.360 able to tell, I don't know if I have any 119 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.279 of my accent left. I am a natives of London, 120 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:12.000 and so the book came out over there first, and 121 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:18.439 due to various publishing industry hiccups, it didn't come out 122 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:23.319 here until you know, after two thousand what was it 123 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.959 two thousand and two I think, and at that point 124 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.439 they put another title on it. It was exactly the 125 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.279 same book, but I updated it with her ten years 126 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.600 on death row at the end. So Lethal Intent is 127 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.600 definitely the one if anyone's interested in getting hold of 128 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:43.519 the book, because it does go right up to, you know, 129 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:45.079 the point of her execution. 130 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.800 Yeah, okay, that's that clarifies that I was interested to 131 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.240 know about that. It would seem unusual that you would 132 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.439 write two separate books about the same thing. Now I 133 00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:00.759 understand that you've spent some two years searching the life 134 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:04.480 of Alien Warnos. It is a fascinating story just on 135 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:07.959 its own. Let's go back. What was Aliens Warno's early 136 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:11.079 life like growing up in Troy, Michigan, just outside of 137 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:11.920 the city of Detroit. 138 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:17.040 Right, Just to clarify, I didn't spend two years researching it. 139 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.600 I spent two years researching and writing it. I don't 140 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.759 want people to think I'm the slowest person in the world. Hemisphere. 141 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:32.879 Eileen was born to Diane Warnoff, who was briefly married 142 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:37.840 to Leo Pittman. They were both very young and this 143 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:44.399 was in Troy, Michigan. And basically what happened is, first 144 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:48.320 there was the brother, Keith, who's about eleven months older 145 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.879 than Eileen, and then Eileen was born, by which time 146 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.320 Leo Pittman had exited the picture. And within the first 147 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.759 two years of Eileen's life. Her mother abandoned her twice, 148 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:06.279 dumping her and Keith on the grandparents, Brita and Lowry 149 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:12.600 Warnoff also in the Troy, Michigan area there and so 150 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:16.600 she left the babies with the grandparents once and then 151 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:18.799 she came back and tried to make a go of it, 152 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:21.600 but that didn't work, and so she took off twice. 153 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:28.080 So for anyone who believes, you know, the abandonment during 154 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:33.879 that very early formative stage is a powerful influence on 155 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.600 a person's future, then I think you could say that 156 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:43.039 Eileen had a double dose of it. The grandparents then 157 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:49.399 raised Eileen and Keith as their own and alongside their 158 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:55.240 own children, Diane's brothers, Barry and Laurie, So it was 159 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.000 Barry and Laurie and Eileen and Keith as if they 160 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.639 were all sibling, although in fact Barry and Laurie were 161 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:09.639 aunt and uncle to Eileen and teeth. If I'm making sense, yeah, yeah, 162 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:14.279 So it was a rough childhood. It was a hard 163 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:21.480 scrabble Michigan life. But Laurie warn us Lowry, I'm sorry, 164 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.720 the father. We called him Lowry to try to distinguish 165 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.039 from Lourie the daughter. But Lowry warn Us was generally 166 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.919 recognized in the neighborhood as a mean man, and neighbors 167 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:39.639 would hear the kids getting a whipping from across the 168 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.559 backyards and what have you, and here screaming and carrying on. 169 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:46.840 The shades were always drawn. They were a very private family. 170 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.240 It was one of those cases of what is going 171 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:51.840 on behind closed doors, and school kids who went to 172 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.960 school with her would always say, or said when I 173 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.639 interviewed them years later that they always assumed that bad 174 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.440 things were happening and it was not a happy place 175 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:06.320 to be living, but they kept all of it very 176 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:14.039 much hidden. And grandmother Brita was also later was revealed 177 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.080 an alcoholic and was drinking heavily behind closed doors too. 178 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.480 So you've got two drinking grandparents, and you've got the 179 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.720 violence from the grandfather who would take a belt to 180 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.720 the kids, especially Eileen, who was always in trouble with them, 181 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.679 and you know, he'd pull down their jeans or whatever 182 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.279 and just take the leather belt to them, actually make 183 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.440 Eileen polish it up before she got a whipping. So 184 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.799 it was a whole procedure and I'm sure had a 185 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:52.519 bad effect on her outlook and life in general. You 186 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.600 know it was child abuse certainly would be considered child 187 00:11:55.639 --> 00:12:00.559 abuse today. In those days, it was not so terribly unusual. 188 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.039 At least it was a perhaps more violent version of 189 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:07.360 what's not so terrapy unusual. It wasn't unusual to hit 190 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:08.759 your kids back then. 191 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:15.480 Now when you talk about effect, certainly in a negative 192 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:18.919 effect in this case, as well as we will reveal 193 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:22.919 in this interview that this is an exceptional case for 194 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:26.639 all the factors that led to her shaping her eventual 195 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:31.279 character and eventual behavior. And you talk about the parents, 196 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:38.200 and were Aileen and Keith told about who their parents 197 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.279 actually were or what anything about their actual real parents? 198 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.799 And when were they told? At what age were they 199 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:49.080 told given this actual information the real identity of their 200 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:49.960 actual parents. 201 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:53.639 Eileen was about twelve years old, and she was crushed, 202 00:12:53.879 --> 00:13:00.919 completely crushed. She was in disbelief, basically. And what is 203 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.159 so interesting to me, or was you know, initially so 204 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:08.879 stunningly interesting to me, Dan, was that when I began 205 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:15.360 looking into Leo Pittman's background birth father, not only was 206 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:19.200 he a petty criminal and you know, stole cars and 207 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:22.679 things like that, but when I eventually got his records 208 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.440 from the FBI and learned about what he had done 209 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:30.039 a bit later on. He had abducted a child into 210 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.879 his car. He'd lurked outside a schoolyard and he'd taken 211 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:37.039 this little girl, I think she was maybe seven, and 212 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:43.320 he'd driven her across state lines and he had sexually 213 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.799 abused her, and he then put her in the car 214 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.720 and he drove her back across and dropped her off 215 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.039 outside the school. Now, because she'd gone across state lines, 216 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:59.799 albeit marginally, it became a federal offense, and the father, 217 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:04.840 Violin also committed a capital crime. He too faced the 218 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.279 death penalty like his daughter, and they never met and 219 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.639 he didn't get the death penalty, and ultimately he hanged 220 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.120 himself in prison. But I just find that so eerie 221 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.440 and uncanny. A coincidence, or maybe more than a coincidence, 222 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:27.080 that their lives took these turns. And the child, who 223 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:33.200 was instrumental in the victim in putting Leo Pittman behind bars, 224 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:36.720 had to go into court to testify that this was 225 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:40.480 the man who had abducted and raped her. And when 226 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:43.559 she was shown the fabric from the seat of his car, 227 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.679 which was a distinctive check pattern, she broke out in 228 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.679 hives in front of the whole courtroom, so everyone could 229 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.720 see this immediate physical reaction she had, just as seeing 230 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.399 the car seat material from Leo Pittman's car. But Leo 231 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.600 tried to the system too, saying he was mentally ill. 232 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.360 He spent time in the mental hospital, he spent time 233 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.600 in the prison part he tried to work the system, 234 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:10.960 and he did, in fact hang himself. 235 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.399 It's very interesting when you talk about the environmental the 236 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:19.000 effect of the environment on a future killer of this 237 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:22.559 case is very I would think a textbook case in 238 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.080 terms of. 239 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:23.720 What not to do. 240 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:29.360 And yes, I mean I always likened it to stacking 241 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:32.080 up dominoes, you know, standing them up on their end 242 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.279 in a long row before they all began to tip 243 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.480 over and they suddenly reached the tipping point. It was 244 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.120 like everything that was a part of her life was 245 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.559 a strike against her. She had some hearing difficulties which 246 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:50.320 manifested themselves as learning difficulties. In fact, she just needed 247 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.440 a hearing aid, and the grandmother sort of refused to 248 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.200 accept this and didn't get her the necessary help and 249 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.519 kind of dismissed it. When teachers noted this kind of thing, 250 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.360 and one teacher actually wrote a report saying something like, 251 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.240 this girl is going to I've forgotten the wording. It's 252 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.960 been so long. I'm sorry, but you know, more or 253 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.600 less like this girl is going, you know, to end 254 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.120 up in major trouble if somebody doesn't intervene. And of 255 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:27.440 course nobody did. But eventually those dominoes all kind of cumulatively, 256 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.279 the weight of them just tipped over. And it almost 257 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.559 feels inevitable when you look at the fact she was 258 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.159 taking money for sex when she was age eleven or twelve. 259 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:43.919 Boys who were in the neighborhood at that time and 260 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.879 who are now men testified to testify that they told 261 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.440 me in interviews that they'd had sex with her. When 262 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.120 she was eleven, she had sex with her brother. She 263 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.200 took money for sex. She would charge thirty five cents 264 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.200 or a packet of cigarettes. She was called the cigarette pig, 265 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.400 the cigarette bandit. These kids had a fort and they 266 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.480 would have to make out sessions, and nobody wanted to 267 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:13.640 kiss Eileen. You can imagine, you know, the rejection and 268 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:17.319 the pain that was building and the rage that was 269 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:23.920 building in this girl through adolescence. And she would use 270 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.720 this money that she got from sex also to party 271 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.119 with her friends. She so badly wanted friends, and she 272 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:37.400 so badly wanted to build these friendships that she saw 273 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.240 all around her, but that seemed to elude her, and 274 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.880 so she'd throw parties and what have you. But the 275 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:50.240 trouble was, she had this explosive temper, and as I 276 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:55.160 write about in Lisal Intent, basically she sabotaged every friendship 277 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.240 she had because other kids were afraid of Eileen. She 278 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:03.960 would have this extraordinary explosion from time to time, much 279 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:10.200 to the embarrassment of sisters Aunt Laurie, who really tried 280 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.920 to do to stand up for Eileen, but at times 281 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.880 it became impossible and unbearable. Barry was a bit older 282 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:20.440 and was out of the house, so Laurie was more 283 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.359 in the sick of it. But it was very It 284 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:28.480 was very tough because Eileen clearly longed for these connections, 285 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.559 but just was unable to rein in this sort of 286 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.279 these demons inside her long enough to sustain any thing. 287 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.720 What I found was interesting too in continuum with just 288 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.799 with her environment, you also, or at least did She 289 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.279 had said and I don't know if this was corroborating, 290 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.480 and you can tell us who actually said this and 291 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.240 if there was any any corroboration of this he had 292 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.599 said that. I think Alien had said that. Her father 293 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:01.119 said she was wicked, evil, worthless, should never have been born, 294 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.799 and she was not worthy of the air that she breathed. Yeah, 295 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.680 was that proven that those kind of statements came from 296 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:09.680 her I think father. 297 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.759 I think that was a mixture of what was told 298 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:20.559 by close family friends, by Eileen herself. Laurie, the sister aunt, 299 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:25.960 was a little reticent when it came to painting her 300 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:31.799 father with this nasty, nasty brush that everybody else did. 301 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.799 I think she was rather in denial, but she did 302 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.799 admit that, yes we got whippings, and yes, you know, 303 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.119 he did shout at Eileen and teeth. They were always 304 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:46.720 in trouble. So it was a combination of people, including 305 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:53.720 Eileen herself, who talked about this verbal abuse, which was 306 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.799 ongoing for a long time and obviously very destructive. 307 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:06.000 You also talk about that Aleen Lee Wernos also developed 308 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.079 a liking for drugs and alcohol, and how did this 309 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.319 play into her eventual acceleration in her behavior, her behavior 310 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.920 getting worse eventually. What was the role of alcohol and 311 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:18.440 drugs in that? 312 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:24.079 Well, you know, there were several elements running concurrently, she 313 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.039 was getting into so much trouble. I mean, she got 314 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:30.799 pregnant when she was fourteen and went into a home 315 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.759 and gave birth, and the baby was taken away from 316 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:38.680 her when she was just past fifteen fifteenth birthday. So 317 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.759 we have the drinking and the drugs. We have her 318 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:49.240 being essentially ostracized from then on by Lowry, who basically 319 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:52.359 kicked her out of the house more than once. She 320 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.880 did go back, but eventually she didn't go back, and 321 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.359 she lived in cars, in campers, in people's drive ways. 322 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.000 She lived it rough, and needless to say, I am 323 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:10.200 quite certain that drugs and alcohol played quite a role 324 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:16.079 in the road she then took because she basically never 325 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:22.359 really pursued any kind of jobs or she lived rough. 326 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:29.759 She prostituted herself, and I've always believed Eileen always denied 327 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.240 that she did drugs in the later part of her life, 328 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.119 and certainly I know that when she was with her lover, 329 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.000 Tyria Moore, they would, you know, knock off a forty 330 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:45.480 eight pack of beer in an evening, but Eileen always 331 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.880 denied the drugs. Now, the drugs were very prevalent during 332 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.200 the teenage years and unless someone actually actively goes into 333 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:57.480 AA and says I'm going to clean up my act 334 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.400 and gives up the drugs. Living the life she did, 335 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.880 the prostitution, the living on the streets, the homeless, the 336 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.160 going from one place to another, I personally find it 337 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.160 very hard to believe and always did that she didn't 338 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:16.759 continue to do drugs. She had certain things that to 339 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.160 her were not acceptable. She would admit to the drinking, 340 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.720 and I believe she did the drugs and didn't admit 341 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.400 to them in much the same way that she had 342 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.519 no problem admitting to having killed the men, but she 343 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:32.519 had a problem saying she'd been sexually abused. In her mind, 344 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.119 one was shameful, the other was not. And I think 345 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.079 that the drugs were there that would be my you know, 346 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.640 it can only be a guest because she would never 347 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:47.319 confirm it. But you know, people pay for sex with drugs, 348 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.640 as you know, And she was living a very rough 349 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:52.319 life for a very long time. 350 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:57.960 Right now, you mentioned her lover, her lesbian lover, Tyra 351 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.759 or ty Tyra Moore. Maybe can tell us a little 352 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:06.319 bit about Tyra and the event that intersected these two 353 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:09.400 people's lives forever where they met how they met and 354 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:12.319 how they became a couple, and tell us a little 355 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:13.519 bit about Tyra Moore first. 356 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.000 Well, Tira was actually the more industrious of the two. 357 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:26.039 She did have a definite liking for partying and drinking 358 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:31.680 beer and you know, generally getting wasted regularly. However, she 359 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.480 did hold down jobs. She was a hotel maid and 360 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.279 you know, various other jobs that she had For periods 361 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.279 of times. She would go off to work and leave 362 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:44.000 Eileen would then take off up the highway with her 363 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.640 what the police would call and you know, I guess 364 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.519 I would too, give them what was in it her 365 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:55.559 kill bag, which was a bottle of Windex and her gun, 366 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.359 and she would go off hooking. And you know, there's 367 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:05.079 some dispute really about how much was openly told Tyra 368 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.279 at what point. There's no doubt that Tyron knew she 369 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:13.359 was prostituting herself. But Tyra was the type who really 370 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:15.839 liked the end product and didn't want to rock the 371 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.119 boat too much. It was easier for her to turn 372 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:23.359 a blind eye and just take the rewards as it were, 373 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.079 of what came of Eileen's lifestyle. They met in a 374 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:32.839 bar and they began drinking and they went home together. 375 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:38.880 At the time, Tyrie was living with Cammy Green, a 376 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:43.640 friend of her, and Cammy's husband and children, and they 377 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.880 woke up one morning and Tyrea had a woman in 378 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.880 her room, and Cammy tried to go in. At some 379 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.960 point she was told no, no, get away, and basically 380 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.119 they spent the weekend together, locked up together in that room, 381 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:06.000 coming out just occasionally to get more alcohol or whatever. However, Dan, 382 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.559 I must tell you that, contrary to what everybody else believes, 383 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.319 I do not believe that Eileen was a lesbian. I 384 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:20.240 believe that Eileen I interviewed enough former boyfriends and people 385 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:24.039 with whom she had sex where there was no money exchanged. 386 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:31.839 Men I'm talking about. I believe with Eileen Tyra Tyrea. 387 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.559 I call her Tyria, you call her Tira, Many people 388 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:42.160 call her Tira. Tyria was an emotional prop It was 389 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:48.359 what Eileen so badly, badly craved, that emotional connection. Their 390 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.799 sex life dropped off pretty quickly, and although Eileen did 391 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:58.359 have one other to our knowledge, lesbian affair, basically she 392 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.559 was often in love with men and often had sex 393 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.279 with men. So I've always gone against this man hating 394 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.240 lesbian label always given to her by the press. I 395 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:13.799 don't believe that was the case. I don't believe she 396 00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:17.759 was a lesbian. She was bisexual perhaps, but she certainly 397 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.240 enjoyed sex with men and instigated it when she didn't 398 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:21.559 have to. 399 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.079 Yes, she was the act of love. Somebody actually wanting 400 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:31.599 her seemed to be the main compulsion and driving her life. Yeah, 401 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:32.720