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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about him Gasey Bundy, Stahmer The Night Stalker VTK.
Speaker 6: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Hello, this is
Speaker 6: your host Dan Zupaski for the program True Murder, The
Speaker 6: most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors
Speaker 6: that have written about them. On November thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 6: in Florida, a man was shot four times by a naked,
Speaker 6: heart faced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, agonizing death
Speaker 6: while the woman stripped him of his valuables and drove
Speaker 6: his Cadillac back to the motel where her lesbian lover
Speaker 6: was waiting. In nineteen ninety, her killing spree kicked into
Speaker 6: high gear. Were three men slain in three weeks. Of
Speaker 6: the six of seven male victims whose bodies were found,
Speaker 6: some were nude, all had been robbed and shot dead.
Speaker 6: In January nineteen ninety one, pawnshop records led to the
Speaker 6: arrest of Aileen Carol Warnos, a k A. Lee An abusive,
Speaker 6: alcoholic man hater with a murderous hair trigger temper. Tired
Speaker 6: of turning twenty dullar tricks and often being abused, Warnos
Speaker 6: decided to rob her customers of everything they had, including
Speaker 6: their lives. Her arrest and trial prompted a worldwide media
Speaker 6: frenzy and even an Academy Award winning movie Monster. In
Speaker 6: the end, Warnos received six separate death sentences. Lethal Intent
Speaker 6: is the definitive account of a killer who confounded the
Speaker 6: profiling experts, forever changing their concepts of the crimes of
Speaker 6: which a woman is capable. My guest today is journalist
Speaker 6: and author Sue Russell, discussing her true crime classic lethal Intent,
Speaker 6: the shocking true story of one of America's most notorious
Speaker 6: female serial killers. Welcome to the program, Sue Russell, and
Speaker 6: thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 5: Good morning, Dan, Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure and I'm
Speaker 7: sure our audiences as well. Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 7: First off, this is a question that's always intrigues me
Speaker 7: and I always ask it of all guests. You are,
Speaker 7: give you a little bit of a background to our audience.
Speaker 7: You're an internationally syndicated journalist and author, a past editor
Speaker 7: of Women Magazine, a Woman Magazine, and a regular contributor
Speaker 7: to various British and US publications. You've written about the
Speaker 7: beauty industry and co authored The Star Mothers The Moms
Speaker 7: Behind the Celebrities. Now, what was it about the Alien
Speaker 7: Warno's case? Because you've written about so many diverse cases,
Speaker 7: what was it about the Alien Warno's case specifically that
Speaker 7: compelled you to write not only Lethal Intent but also
Speaker 7: Damsel of Death, both about Alien Warnos. What was it
Speaker 7: about Alien Warnos and her case that interested you so much?
Speaker 5: Well, I'd written a lot of crime stories and features
Speaker 5: on related issues about crime, and I was dying to
Speaker 5: write a true crime book No pun intended. And the
Speaker 5: minute I heard about Eileen, of course, my is pricked
Speaker 5: up because it was such an extraordinary taste. It was
Speaker 5: such an amazing piece of news that was coming across
Speaker 5: the wise, this woman being arrested with all these casualties
Speaker 5: of her at the end of her twenty two caliber
Speaker 5: gan and it was in modern day times, unprecedented, and
Speaker 5: she defied the definitions of a serial killer. You know,
Speaker 5: as outlined by the FBI. So it just seemed crazy
Speaker 5: not to just immediately jump up and say, okay, this
Speaker 5: is the one I have to write this book. I
Speaker 5: felt very much interested in women's violence. I've written about
Speaker 5: women as victims of violence, and this was just too
Speaker 5: good to pass up in terms of being such a
Speaker 5: fascinating story.
Speaker 7: Dan, Right now, I'm a little bit confused. Maybe you
Speaker 7: can tell our audience you wrote Damsel of Death and
Speaker 7: in also Lethal Intent are the two separate books?
Speaker 5: Told us. I'm glad you asked that, because it does
Speaker 5: confuse people somewhat. What happened was I wrote Damsel of
Speaker 5: Death first for England and Australia. As you may be
Speaker 5: able to tell, I don't know if I have any
Speaker 5: of my accent left. I am a natives of London,
Speaker 5: and so the book came out over there first, and
Speaker 5: due to various publishing industry hiccups, it didn't come out
Speaker 5: here until you know, after two thousand what was it
Speaker 5: two thousand and two I think, and at that point
Speaker 5: they put another title on it. It was exactly the
Speaker 5: same book, but I updated it with her ten years
Speaker 5: on death row at the end. So Lethal Intent is
Speaker 5: definitely the one if anyone's interested in getting hold of
Speaker 5: the book, because it does go right up to, you know,
Speaker 5: the point of her execution.
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, that's that clarifies that I was interested to
Speaker 7: know about that. It would seem unusual that you would
Speaker 7: write two separate books about the same thing. Now I
Speaker 7: understand that you've spent some two years searching the life
Speaker 7: of Alien Warnos. It is a fascinating story just on
Speaker 7: its own. Let's go back. What was Aliens Warno's early
Speaker 7: life like growing up in Troy, Michigan, just outside of
Speaker 7: the city of Detroit.
Speaker 5: Right, Just to clarify, I didn't spend two years researching it.
Speaker 5: I spent two years researching and writing it. I don't
Speaker 5: want people to think I'm the slowest person in the world. Hemisphere.
Speaker 5: Eileen was born to Diane Warnoff, who was briefly married
Speaker 5: to Leo Pittman. They were both very young and this
Speaker 5: was in Troy, Michigan. And basically what happened is, first
Speaker 5: there was the brother, Keith, who's about eleven months older
Speaker 5: than Eileen, and then Eileen was born, by which time
Speaker 5: Leo Pittman had exited the picture. And within the first
Speaker 5: two years of Eileen's life. Her mother abandoned her twice,
Speaker 5: dumping her and Keith on the grandparents, Brita and Lowry
Speaker 5: Warnoff also in the Troy, Michigan area there and so
Speaker 5: she left the babies with the grandparents once and then
Speaker 5: she came back and tried to make a go of it,
Speaker 5: but that didn't work, and so she took off twice.
Speaker 5: So for anyone who believes, you know, the abandonment during
Speaker 5: that very early formative stage is a powerful influence on
Speaker 5: a person's future, then I think you could say that
Speaker 5: Eileen had a double dose of it. The grandparents then
Speaker 5: raised Eileen and Keith as their own and alongside their
Speaker 5: own children, Diane's brothers, Barry and Laurie, So it was
Speaker 5: Barry and Laurie and Eileen and Keith as if they
Speaker 5: were all sibling, although in fact Barry and Laurie were
Speaker 5: aunt and uncle to Eileen and teeth. If I'm making sense, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: So it was a rough childhood. It was a hard
Speaker 5: scrabble Michigan life. But Laurie warn us Lowry, I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: the father. We called him Lowry to try to distinguish
Speaker 5: from Lourie the daughter. But Lowry warn Us was generally
Speaker 5: recognized in the neighborhood as a mean man, and neighbors
Speaker 5: would hear the kids getting a whipping from across the
Speaker 5: backyards and what have you, and here screaming and carrying on.
Speaker 5: The shades were always drawn. They were a very private family.
Speaker 5: It was one of those cases of what is going
Speaker 5: on behind closed doors, and school kids who went to
Speaker 5: school with her would always say, or said when I
Speaker 5: interviewed them years later that they always assumed that bad
Speaker 5: things were happening and it was not a happy place
Speaker 5: to be living, but they kept all of it very
Speaker 5: much hidden. And grandmother Brita was also later was revealed
Speaker 5: an alcoholic and was drinking heavily behind closed doors too.
Speaker 5: So you've got two drinking grandparents, and you've got the
Speaker 5: violence from the grandfather who would take a belt to
Speaker 5: the kids, especially Eileen, who was always in trouble with them,
Speaker 5: and you know, he'd pull down their jeans or whatever
Speaker 5: and just take the leather belt to them, actually make
Speaker 5: Eileen polish it up before she got a whipping. So
Speaker 5: it was a whole procedure and I'm sure had a
Speaker 5: bad effect on her outlook and life in general. You
Speaker 5: know it was child abuse certainly would be considered child
Speaker 5: abuse today. In those days, it was not so terribly unusual.
Speaker 5: At least it was a perhaps more violent version of
Speaker 5: what's not so terrapy unusual. It wasn't unusual to hit
Speaker 5: your kids back then.
Speaker 7: Now when you talk about effect, certainly in a negative
Speaker 7: effect in this case, as well as we will reveal
Speaker 7: in this interview that this is an exceptional case for
Speaker 7: all the factors that led to her shaping her eventual
Speaker 7: character and eventual behavior. And you talk about the parents,
Speaker 7: and were Aileen and Keith told about who their parents
Speaker 7: actually were or what anything about their actual real parents?
Speaker 7: And when were they told? At what age were they
Speaker 7: told given this actual information the real identity of their
Speaker 7: actual parents.
Speaker 5: Eileen was about twelve years old, and she was crushed,
Speaker 5: completely crushed. She was in disbelief, basically. And what is
Speaker 5: so interesting to me, or was you know, initially so
Speaker 5: stunningly interesting to me, Dan, was that when I began
Speaker 5: looking into Leo Pittman's background birth father, not only was
Speaker 5: he a petty criminal and you know, stole cars and
Speaker 5: things like that, but when I eventually got his records
Speaker 5: from the FBI and learned about what he had done
Speaker 5: a bit later on. He had abducted a child into
Speaker 5: his car. He'd lurked outside a schoolyard and he'd taken
Speaker 5: this little girl, I think she was maybe seven, and
Speaker 5: he'd driven her across state lines and he had sexually
Speaker 5: abused her, and he then put her in the car
Speaker 5: and he drove her back across and dropped her off
Speaker 5: outside the school. Now, because she'd gone across state lines,
Speaker 5: albeit marginally, it became a federal offense, and the father,
Speaker 5: Violin also committed a capital crime. He too faced the
Speaker 5: death penalty like his daughter, and they never met and
Speaker 5: he didn't get the death penalty, and ultimately he hanged
Speaker 5: himself in prison. But I just find that so eerie
Speaker 5: and uncanny. A coincidence, or maybe more than a coincidence,
Speaker 5: that their lives took these turns. And the child, who
Speaker 5: was instrumental in the victim in putting Leo Pittman behind bars,
Speaker 5: had to go into court to testify that this was
Speaker 5: the man who had abducted and raped her. And when
Speaker 5: she was shown the fabric from the seat of his car,
Speaker 5: which was a distinctive check pattern, she broke out in
Speaker 5: hives in front of the whole courtroom, so everyone could
Speaker 5: see this immediate physical reaction she had, just as seeing
Speaker 5: the car seat material from Leo Pittman's car. But Leo
Speaker 5: tried to the system too, saying he was mentally ill.
Speaker 5: He spent time in the mental hospital, he spent time
Speaker 5: in the prison part he tried to work the system,
Speaker 5: and he did, in fact hang himself.
Speaker 7: It's very interesting when you talk about the environmental the
Speaker 7: effect of the environment on a future killer of this
Speaker 7: case is very I would think a textbook case in
Speaker 7: terms of.
Speaker 8: What not to do.
Speaker 5: And yes, I mean I always likened it to stacking
Speaker 5: up dominoes, you know, standing them up on their end
Speaker 5: in a long row before they all began to tip
Speaker 5: over and they suddenly reached the tipping point. It was
Speaker 5: like everything that was a part of her life was
Speaker 5: a strike against her. She had some hearing difficulties which
Speaker 5: manifested themselves as learning difficulties. In fact, she just needed
Speaker 5: a hearing aid, and the grandmother sort of refused to
Speaker 5: accept this and didn't get her the necessary help and
Speaker 5: kind of dismissed it. When teachers noted this kind of thing,
Speaker 5: and one teacher actually wrote a report saying something like,
Speaker 5: this girl is going to I've forgotten the wording. It's
Speaker 5: been so long. I'm sorry, but you know, more or
Speaker 5: less like this girl is going, you know, to end
Speaker 5: up in major trouble if somebody doesn't intervene. And of
Speaker 5: course nobody did. But eventually those dominoes all kind of cumulatively,
Speaker 5: the weight of them just tipped over. And it almost
Speaker 5: feels inevitable when you look at the fact she was
Speaker 5: taking money for sex when she was age eleven or twelve.
Speaker 5: Boys who were in the neighborhood at that time and
Speaker 5: who are now men testified to testify that they told
Speaker 5: me in interviews that they'd had sex with her. When
Speaker 5: she was eleven, she had sex with her brother. She
Speaker 5: took money for sex. She would charge thirty five cents
Speaker 5: or a packet of cigarettes. She was called the cigarette pig,
Speaker 5: the cigarette bandit. These kids had a fort and they
Speaker 5: would have to make out sessions, and nobody wanted to
Speaker 5: kiss Eileen. You can imagine, you know, the rejection and
Speaker 5: the pain that was building and the rage that was
Speaker 5: building in this girl through adolescence. And she would use
Speaker 5: this money that she got from sex also to party
Speaker 5: with her friends. She so badly wanted friends, and she
Speaker 5: so badly wanted to build these friendships that she saw
Speaker 5: all around her, but that seemed to elude her, and
Speaker 5: so she'd throw parties and what have you. But the
Speaker 5: trouble was, she had this explosive temper, and as I
Speaker 5: write about in Lisal Intent, basically she sabotaged every friendship
Speaker 5: she had because other kids were afraid of Eileen. She
Speaker 5: would have this extraordinary explosion from time to time, much
Speaker 5: to the embarrassment of sisters Aunt Laurie, who really tried
Speaker 5: to do to stand up for Eileen, but at times
Speaker 5: it became impossible and unbearable. Barry was a bit older
Speaker 5: and was out of the house, so Laurie was more
Speaker 5: in the sick of it. But it was very It
Speaker 5: was very tough because Eileen clearly longed for these connections,
Speaker 5: but just was unable to rein in this sort of
Speaker 5: these demons inside her long enough to sustain any thing.
Speaker 7: What I found was interesting too in continuum with just
Speaker 7: with her environment, you also, or at least did She
Speaker 7: had said and I don't know if this was corroborating,
Speaker 7: and you can tell us who actually said this and
Speaker 7: if there was any any corroboration of this he had
Speaker 7: said that. I think Alien had said that. Her father
Speaker 7: said she was wicked, evil, worthless, should never have been born,
Speaker 7: and she was not worthy of the air that she breathed. Yeah,
Speaker 7: was that proven that those kind of statements came from
Speaker 7: her I think father.
Speaker 5: I think that was a mixture of what was told
Speaker 5: by close family friends, by Eileen herself. Laurie, the sister aunt,
Speaker 5: was a little reticent when it came to painting her
Speaker 5: father with this nasty, nasty brush that everybody else did.
Speaker 5: I think she was rather in denial, but she did
Speaker 5: admit that, yes we got whippings, and yes, you know,
Speaker 5: he did shout at Eileen and teeth. They were always
Speaker 5: in trouble. So it was a combination of people, including
Speaker 5: Eileen herself, who talked about this verbal abuse, which was
Speaker 5: ongoing for a long time and obviously very destructive.
Speaker 7: You also talk about that Aleen Lee Wernos also developed
Speaker 7: a liking for drugs and alcohol, and how did this
Speaker 7: play into her eventual acceleration in her behavior, her behavior
Speaker 7: getting worse eventually. What was the role of alcohol and
Speaker 7: drugs in that?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, there were several elements running concurrently, she
Speaker 5: was getting into so much trouble. I mean, she got
Speaker 5: pregnant when she was fourteen and went into a home
Speaker 5: and gave birth, and the baby was taken away from
Speaker 5: her when she was just past fifteen fifteenth birthday. So
Speaker 5: we have the drinking and the drugs. We have her
Speaker 5: being essentially ostracized from then on by Lowry, who basically
Speaker 5: kicked her out of the house more than once. She
Speaker 5: did go back, but eventually she didn't go back, and
Speaker 5: she lived in cars, in campers, in people's drive ways.
Speaker 5: She lived it rough, and needless to say, I am
Speaker 5: quite certain that drugs and alcohol played quite a role
Speaker 5: in the road she then took because she basically never
Speaker 5: really pursued any kind of jobs or she lived rough.
Speaker 5: She prostituted herself, and I've always believed Eileen always denied
Speaker 5: that she did drugs in the later part of her life,
Speaker 5: and certainly I know that when she was with her lover,
Speaker 5: Tyria Moore, they would, you know, knock off a forty
Speaker 5: eight pack of beer in an evening, but Eileen always
Speaker 5: denied the drugs. Now, the drugs were very prevalent during
Speaker 5: the teenage years and unless someone actually actively goes into
Speaker 5: AA and says I'm going to clean up my act
Speaker 5: and gives up the drugs. Living the life she did,
Speaker 5: the prostitution, the living on the streets, the homeless, the
Speaker 5: going from one place to another, I personally find it
Speaker 5: very hard to believe and always did that she didn't
Speaker 5: continue to do drugs. She had certain things that to
Speaker 5: her were not acceptable. She would admit to the drinking,
Speaker 5: and I believe she did the drugs and didn't admit
Speaker 5: to them in much the same way that she had
Speaker 5: no problem admitting to having killed the men, but she
Speaker 5: had a problem saying she'd been sexually abused. In her mind,
Speaker 5: one was shameful, the other was not. And I think
Speaker 5: that the drugs were there that would be my you know,
Speaker 5: it can only be a guest because she would never
Speaker 5: confirm it. But you know, people pay for sex with drugs,
Speaker 5: as you know, And she was living a very rough
Speaker 5: life for a very long time.
Speaker 7: Right now, you mentioned her lover, her lesbian lover, Tyra
Speaker 7: or ty Tyra Moore. Maybe can tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about Tyra and the event that intersected these two
Speaker 7: people's lives forever where they met how they met and
Speaker 7: how they became a couple, and tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about Tyra Moore first.
Speaker 5: Well, Tira was actually the more industrious of the two.
Speaker 5: She did have a definite liking for partying and drinking
Speaker 5: beer and you know, generally getting wasted regularly. However, she
Speaker 5: did hold down jobs. She was a hotel maid and
Speaker 5: you know, various other jobs that she had For periods
Speaker 5: of times. She would go off to work and leave
Speaker 5: Eileen would then take off up the highway with her
Speaker 5: what the police would call and you know, I guess
Speaker 5: I would too, give them what was in it her
Speaker 5: kill bag, which was a bottle of Windex and her gun,
Speaker 5: and she would go off hooking. And you know, there's
Speaker 5: some dispute really about how much was openly told Tyra
Speaker 5: at what point. There's no doubt that Tyron knew she
Speaker 5: was prostituting herself. But Tyra was the type who really
Speaker 5: liked the end product and didn't want to rock the
Speaker 5: boat too much. It was easier for her to turn
Speaker 5: a blind eye and just take the rewards as it were,
Speaker 5: of what came of Eileen's lifestyle. They met in a
Speaker 5: bar and they began drinking and they went home together.
Speaker 5: At the time, Tyrie was living with Cammy Green, a
Speaker 5: friend of her, and Cammy's husband and children, and they
Speaker 5: woke up one morning and Tyrea had a woman in
Speaker 5: her room, and Cammy tried to go in. At some
Speaker 5: point she was told no, no, get away, and basically
Speaker 5: they spent the weekend together, locked up together in that room,
Speaker 5: coming out just occasionally to get more alcohol or whatever. However, Dan,
Speaker 5: I must tell you that, contrary to what everybody else believes,
Speaker 5: I do not believe that Eileen was a lesbian. I
Speaker 5: believe that Eileen I interviewed enough former boyfriends and people
Speaker 5: with whom she had sex where there was no money exchanged.
Speaker 5: Men I'm talking about. I believe with Eileen Tyra Tyrea.
Speaker 5: I call her Tyria, you call her Tira, Many people
Speaker 5: call her Tira. Tyria was an emotional prop It was
Speaker 5: what Eileen so badly, badly craved, that emotional connection. Their
Speaker 5: sex life dropped off pretty quickly, and although Eileen did
Speaker 5: have one other to our knowledge, lesbian affair, basically she
Speaker 5: was often in love with men and often had sex
Speaker 5: with men. So I've always gone against this man hating
Speaker 5: lesbian label always given to her by the press. I
Speaker 5: don't believe that was the case. I don't believe she
Speaker 5: was a lesbian. She was bisexual perhaps, but she certainly
Speaker 5: enjoyed sex with men and instigated it when she didn't
Speaker 5: have to.
Speaker 7: Yes, she was the act of love. Somebody actually wanting
Speaker 7: her seemed to be the main compulsion and driving her life. Yeah,
Speaker 7: regardless of who it was.
Speaker 5: Yes. Now, when they lived in a trailer together, Eileen
Speaker 5: put tinfoil what do you call it, aluminum foil they
Speaker 5: call it in the state's aluminium foil in England at
Speaker 5: the windows of the trailer. And basically she didn't want
Speaker 5: Tyria doing anything. She preferred her to be at home,
Speaker 5: waiting for her and available to her at all times.
Speaker 5: She was quite controlling in that regard, and you know
Speaker 5: she she liked to keep very close tabs on her
Speaker 5: and overwriting the book and working a very complex, intricate timeline.
Speaker 5: I did eventually come to my own conclusion about what
Speaker 5: I would call with the precipitating event that preceded each
Speaker 5: of these murders, and it was very closely tied into
Speaker 5: her borderline personality. And the best way I can describe
Speaker 5: borderline personality is with the title of a book on
Speaker 5: the condition, which is called I Hate You, Don't leave
Speaker 5: me or something like that. But in other words, it's
Speaker 5: the dichotomy between the anger and the wanting someone to
Speaker 5: stay with you, but then also telling them you hate them,
Speaker 5: and just black and white kind of behavior. So where
Speaker 5: was I going with all that? So I think she,
Speaker 5: you know, she had this borderline personality disorder, and I
Speaker 5: do believe that a big part of borderline personality is
Speaker 5: a massive fear of abandonment. It's just like a life
Speaker 5: ruling fear. And she so lived in fear of abandonment.
Speaker 5: She'd been abandoned so many times, let's face it, and
Speaker 5: let down so many times. So when she found Tyria,
Speaker 5: and Tyria stuck with her, even after Tyree knew she'd
Speaker 5: committed the first murder, of course, this was incredibly powerful
Speaker 5: for her and it meant everything to her certainly.
Speaker 7: Now you talked about the precipitating event, Well, let's get
Speaker 7: to that. They are in they on a beach there
Speaker 7: in Florida together. At some point, Lee Aileen Warnels goes
Speaker 7: from robbing her clients or taking money from her clients
Speaker 7: to killing them. What you talked about a precipitating event.
Speaker 7: Is there a precipitating event that caused this that you
Speaker 7: found out? You discovered was that moment that reason, that
Speaker 7: event that precipitated her first murder?
Speaker 5: Well? I believe though, And of course remember that although
Speaker 5: she confessed to seven murders and was convicted of six,
Speaker 5: we don't one hundred percent know that those were her
Speaker 5: only murders. I personally think she may have witnessed another
Speaker 5: murder at a different time in her life, which she
Speaker 5: knows a bit convoluted. So I won't go into it
Speaker 5: right here and now. But Thanksgiving nineteen eighty nine, Ty
Speaker 5: had brought home a girl called Sandy for Thanksgiving dinner
Speaker 5: from who was a coworker of her at the hotel.
Speaker 5: And she was a very pretty, blonde, straight girl, and
Speaker 5: I interviewed her, you know, and Thanksgiving dinner was an
Speaker 5: extremely awkward event, Eileen. They had basically TV dinner style
Speaker 5: Thanksgiving dinners. Eileen would not eat in front of the
Speaker 5: other two and she clearly was very very jealous of Sandy.
Speaker 5: And within when Thanksgiving I don't know, but you know,
Speaker 5: within two days after this event, which I think rocked
Speaker 5: her world, because she really thought TI was in love
Speaker 5: with Sandy, and although she knew Sandy had a husband,
Speaker 5: I believe it was at that point or certainly you know,
Speaker 5: living boyfriend. This didn't cut it with Eileen. She was
Speaker 5: terribly badly affected by the presence of this pretty young
Speaker 5: blonde thing, you know, and felt very, very threatened. So
Speaker 5: I believe that was the trigger for the first one,
Speaker 5: and the fact that she knew. She also somehow established
Speaker 5: that these men had a certain amount of cash on them,
Speaker 5: you know, I e more than twenty dollars, because with
Speaker 5: one exception, the seven men had several hundred dollars on
Speaker 5: them in cash, which in her world was quite a
Speaker 5: lot of money. And I think that she somehow established
Speaker 5: that through conversation with them, and then that played into
Speaker 5: her targeting certain men. But to reinforce what I was
Speaker 5: saying about, you know, why she killed. And when when
Speaker 5: Ty's sister came down from Ohio for a vacation with them,
Speaker 5: Eileen killed. I think it was three men in six weeks.
Speaker 5: I believe I have that right.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 5: Three weeks because the sister went home early. But anyway,
Speaker 5: there was a terrible clash. The sister wanted Ty to
Speaker 5: move back up to Ohio. And during that period of time,
Speaker 5: three men died in very short order, and Eileen would
Speaker 5: come home waiving the dollar bills, you know, one hundred
Speaker 5: dollar bills, whatever, and would say, look what I have.
Speaker 5: You know, I've got all this money. We can party,
Speaker 5: we can go to sea World, we can this week
Speaker 5: and that, And she was desperately afraid that that Tie
Speaker 5: was going to go home to Ohio with the sister. Again,
Speaker 5: the abandonment issue kicked in, and I believe that she
Speaker 5: robbed to get the money, which she felt, as it
Speaker 5: had done all her life, she would be able to
Speaker 5: avoid it being abandoned. By having money, she'd be able
Speaker 5: to buy herself company, which is really what she did
Speaker 5: with those kids as a teenager, with all the money
Speaker 5: and the parties. And again with Tie by coming home
Speaker 5: with this, which Tie frankly was drawn in by so
Speaker 5: and so it went on. But that's the most dramatic.
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Speaker 5: were killed in such a short space of time and
Speaker 5: when the sister was visiting, And I really believe it
Speaker 5: was all tied into that fear of abandonment, and she
Speaker 5: was very methodical about it. And this is why I
Speaker 5: took issue with the film Monster great issue. In fact,
Speaker 5: I wrote a piece for The Washington Post about the
Speaker 5: film because in the film, which I don't know if
Speaker 5: you've seen it, Dan.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 5: She's brutally raped and she kills her attacker to save
Speaker 5: her own life. Well, that's actually not what happened, and
Speaker 5: it's a very different story, and it's the wrong story,
Speaker 5: and you're not learning anything about Eileen Warnos by believing
Speaker 5: that to be the story, because she wasn't a woman
Speaker 5: who killed to save her own life during a rape.
Speaker 5: That first victim, Richard Mallory, was found sitting behind the
Speaker 5: wheel of his car, fully clothed. Something had set her
Speaker 5: off for sure, But you know I and it wasn't.
Speaker 5: When Aileen was first arrested, she didn't come out with
Speaker 5: a lot of the stuff that came out at her
Speaker 5: trial later about how Richard Mallory had raped her in
Speaker 5: every which way possible, anally raped her and what have you,
Speaker 5: tied her to the steering wheel with electrical cables, inserted
Speaker 5: rubbing alcohol into her bodily orifices. When the murder had
Speaker 5: taken place, Eileen took the car, as you know. But
Speaker 5: the other thing is before she left, she took Mallory
Speaker 5: and she wrapped him in a bit of old carpet
Speaker 5: that was lying out there in the woods and hid
Speaker 5: his body. Now on his pockets were turned inside out,
Speaker 5: so she'd gone through his pockets to see what else
Speaker 5: he had on him. Now, to me, if you're being
Speaker 5: brutally raped and you are trying to save your own life,
Speaker 5: do you really stop to you know, go through the
Speaker 5: man's pockets, and once you've killed him and cover his
Speaker 5: body with a rug, you'd run, you'd run. She did
Speaker 5: run eventually, when she'd taken care of all this, you know,
Speaker 5: hiding the body, she took the car, and then she
Speaker 5: also separately hid what else was in the car, which
Speaker 5: vodka and orange juice glasses, what have you. But there
Speaker 5: was no rubbing alcohol, there were no electrical ties. The
Speaker 5: other evidence was never there, and she didn't come out
Speaker 5: with this story until she got on the witness stand.
Speaker 5: You know, she'd had a long time to think about
Speaker 5: what her story was going to be. But in actual fact,
Speaker 5: the evidence is that the first bullet went into Richard
Speaker 5: Mallory from the passenger seat. He was fully dressed behind
Speaker 5: the steering wheel. You will admit that paints a very
Speaker 5: different picture from Monster, and it's a very different Eileen's
Speaker 5: if you're trying to understand her and why she committed
Speaker 5: her crimes, it's a very different Eileen. If the first
Speaker 5: murder was triggered by her trying to save her own
Speaker 5: life during a rape, that's a very different Eileen from
Speaker 5: an Eileen who robbed and killed men. So there would
Speaker 5: be no witnesses, which she admitted with the case.
Speaker 7: So your issue with the movie is as well, that
Speaker 7: there would be no possible way of misinterpreting the information
Speaker 7: and the evidence that it came out at trial that
Speaker 7: was published in books like Yourself, Your Book.
Speaker 5: What they did Dan was to say it was based
Speaker 5: on the true story, a true story. Now to me,
Speaker 5: if you're going to change the core of who Eileen
Speaker 5: warn Off is, because she is quite an important figure
Speaker 5: in terms of the crime world and what we learn
Speaker 5: about the criminal mind, how these crimes are committed, and
Speaker 5: why then why not change her name in the film too?
Speaker 5: There was another critical difference, which was that Tyria was
Speaker 5: very much aware of what was going on. She was
Speaker 5: in the sharing in the spoils of these robberies. She
Speaker 5: was taking the men's watches and jackets and things that
Speaker 5: Eileen would bring home and wearing them and have you.
Speaker 5: In the movie, they painted her the Christina Ricci character
Speaker 5: as this sort of little innocent who knew nothing about
Speaker 5: what was going on. Well, that wasn't true. There was
Speaker 5: also a lot made of Tye trying to get away
Speaker 5: from Aileen once she became afraid of her. But right
Speaker 5: before the last murder, that you know, before the arrest,
Speaker 5: Tie had gone to Ohio for Thanksgiving to the family
Speaker 5: and she'd come back. Now, if she was afraid for
Speaker 5: her life, why did she get on the bus and come.
Speaker 7: Back certainly, certainly.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So these are core differences, don't.
Speaker 6: You see those?
Speaker 7: Those are yeah, Like you say, there is the truth
Speaker 7: and then there's there's fiction, and so the movie is fiction.
Speaker 5: It's not alone, of course, in being based on a
Speaker 5: true story and then taking massive liberties with the real story.
Speaker 5: The trouble is the public at large. You know, see
Speaker 5: the movie, and I've done it myself, God knows many times,
Speaker 5: you know, whether it was you know, a film about
Speaker 5: Nixon or Kennedy or whatever. You take it at its
Speaker 5: face value, and that's what many people have done with Eileen.
Speaker 5: But what has been the fallout from all this, Dan,
Speaker 5: is that the press, and by that I mean the
Speaker 5: newspapers from day one, began referring to her victims as
Speaker 5: her John's and painting them as you know, rapists who
Speaker 5: brutalized her. Now, in actual fact, you know one man,
Speaker 5: two men I think had closing off, and that of
Speaker 5: course does indicate a sexual transaction. But we also know
Speaker 5: because of men who testified and who and men I interviewed,
Speaker 5: that Eileen traveled with a photograph of children, and she
Speaker 5: would flag down cars and she would say, I need
Speaker 5: to get back to my motel. My children are there.
Speaker 5: They're hungry. You know, I've got to get back. Can
Speaker 5: you give me a ride? And I think it's fair
Speaker 5: to say that some of these men actually were good
Speaker 5: Samaritans and gave her a ride. You know, it's not
Speaker 5: fair to blanketly attack the victims. Imagine if the boot
Speaker 5: were on the other foot. Imagine if these victims were
Speaker 5: women killed by a male serial killer, and if the
Speaker 5: press were to you know, bad mouth them without a
Speaker 5: firm evidence to the contrary. I think we have to
Speaker 5: give the men the benefit of the doubt. Okay, if
Speaker 5: they were nude, yes, you know, sex was happening. That
Speaker 5: much we can assume. But we know from other witnesses
Speaker 5: that she had this and she'd get in the car
Speaker 5: and then she'd try to rob men. We have men
Speaker 5: who you know, kind of parked at a gas station
Speaker 5: to get gas, sent her in to buy some cigarettes
Speaker 5: or whatever, and drove off because they found her so scary.
Speaker 5: And those men survived the encounter, as most did, of course,
Speaker 5: but also testified to the fact that she'd scared the
Speaker 5: living Jesus out of them, and that's what she'd done.
Speaker 5: She'd asked for a ride to get back to her children.
Speaker 5: So you imagine the pain of these families not only
Speaker 5: is their loved one murdered, you know, assuming that probably
Speaker 5: you know, at least three or four of the seven
Speaker 5: were nice guys, but he's labeled as a sort of
Speaker 5: rapist monster.
Speaker 7: I find it incredible to I agree with you because
Speaker 7: I've seen the same thing where a fair amount of
Speaker 7: information concerning the victims comes from the only last living witness,
Speaker 7: which is the killer. It's in herself interest to demonized
Speaker 7: the victim. And so, like you say, the family gets
Speaker 7: to hear an account of their loved one which is
Speaker 7: based on, you know, the self interest of the killer
Speaker 7: trying to demonize the victim to their own benefit. And
Speaker 7: then the media again is irresponsible, I think, or ignorant,
Speaker 7: or a combination of both, putting too much credence in
Speaker 7: a defense lawyer's assertions, which again come from the killer themselves.
Speaker 7: I think that they're inexperienced, otherwise they wouldn't put that
Speaker 7: much credence to what a defense lawyer says on behalf
Speaker 7: of their client.
Speaker 5: Well, as you know, and I mean, we're all guilty
Speaker 5: of this to some extent as journalists. You know, you
Speaker 5: look up what's been printed before, and you're in a rush,
Speaker 5: you're on a deadline, and things get repeated. But she
Speaker 5: became these men became her John's And that was a
Speaker 5: shorthand way of saying something that would fit in a
Speaker 5: very brief number of words, which is often a challenge
Speaker 5: as a journalist. But I think that it would be
Speaker 5: more accurate to say the men who picked her up
Speaker 5: as a hitch hike. And the other thing is that
Speaker 5: you don't very often read about the fact that she
Speaker 5: went out with this bottle of windecks and the gun
Speaker 5: in the bag every day. Now, Okay, I can see
Speaker 5: the gun self protection, but why would you carry windecks? Now?
Speaker 5: The cars were wiped clean of fingerprints. You know, this
Speaker 5: was not a sudden thing out of the blue. There
Speaker 5: was some pre planning here and self protection on her part,
Speaker 5: but not against the men against being identified.
Speaker 7: Now you talked about careful. She was careful to wipe
Speaker 7: off her fingerprints to not be detected for these murders.
Speaker 7: How did Aileen eventually get caught by police?
Speaker 5: Well, at the pawn shop. By law, you have to
Speaker 5: give a fingerprint, and unlike some of the criminals were
Speaker 5: out there today who had the fingerprints sanded off or
Speaker 5: pramically altered. Aileen's fingerprints were Aileen's fingerprints, and in those days,
Speaker 5: fingerprints were hand sorted, you know, they were on cards.
Speaker 5: There was no computerized whatever. But eventually, by good old
Speaker 5: police work, good old fashioned police work, items at a
Speaker 5: porn shop where she had left her honest to god
Speaker 5: fingerprint on the card tied together. And she had a record,
Speaker 5: she had a criminal record, and so once that fingerprint
Speaker 5: was found with the pawned items that tied with missing
Speaker 5: items from the men who died, then the gig was up.
Speaker 5: And at that point the police went after Tyria because
Speaker 5: they felt she was the less culpable. They had no
Speaker 5: real evidence that Rea was present at any of the murders.
Speaker 5: She had albies for a couple of the days, for example.
Speaker 5: So they got hold of Tyrea first, and basically she
Speaker 5: gave her cooperation and wore a hidden wire and telephoned Eileen,
Speaker 5: who had been picked up on an outstanding gun Warrenton
Speaker 5: was in jail and said, you know, they're on to us,
Speaker 5: they know what you've done. I'm not going down for
Speaker 5: what you've done, and a series of you know, very
Speaker 5: poignant phone calls were taped, and I say poignant because
Speaker 5: Eileen said, you know, I love you. You know I'm
Speaker 5: not going to let you go down for something you
Speaker 5: didn't do. And ultimately Eileen did confess, and you might
Speaker 5: say she confessed to save Tyree.
Speaker 7: And that was the gist of those phone calls as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it took a while to build up to that,
Speaker 5: but Eileen was suspicious. She said, are you sure there's
Speaker 5: nobody else there in the room with you, et cetera.
Speaker 5: But briefed by the police, I think I'm going to
Speaker 5: say there were seven, nine or eleven. Sorry, but it
Speaker 5: has been a long time taped telephone calls, and they
Speaker 5: accelerated the you know, the police were saying, come on,
Speaker 5: put more pressure on her, say that you're going to
Speaker 5: be arrested, and tied was sort of more emotional with
Speaker 5: her on the phone. They think I did it. You know,
Speaker 5: they know who we are. There was a composite sketch
Speaker 5: done by an artist. They know it's us, you know,
Speaker 5: this sort of thing, and she convinced Eileen that she
Speaker 5: was going to be arrested, and Eileen said, look, I
Speaker 5: won't let that happen. And basically, you know, said I
Speaker 5: want to talk to a detective or whatever, and out
Speaker 5: came the three hour original fashion.
Speaker 7: Now at trial, did Tyra testify against alien warnos?
Speaker 5: Yes? She did.
Speaker 7: Was that the testimony effective? And was there anything revealed
Speaker 7: at the at the trial that she didn't reveal? And
Speaker 7: say those phone calls? What you attended the trial? Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about that testimony.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, for me, we are talking about nineteen
Speaker 5: ninety one here, So I don't want everyone to think
Speaker 5: I'm an amnesiac. But it's a long time since I
Speaker 5: first wrote this book and since I attended the trial.
Speaker 5: But what I remember most was ty came in. She'd
Speaker 5: been very cleaned up. She was wearing a sort of
Speaker 5: I mean, she always dressed very butch and T shirt
Speaker 5: and jeans and what have you. She was wearing an
Speaker 5: outfit and it was a patterned, you know, outfit and
Speaker 5: with a skirt I think, and maybe it was a
Speaker 5: pantsuit but anywhere print, and had her hair cut and everything.
Speaker 5: And Eileen's eyes did not leave her as she walked
Speaker 5: to the stand and as she took the stand, but
Speaker 5: ty did not once make eye contact back and Eileen
Speaker 5: was obviously waiting for this you know, for them to
Speaker 5: make eye contact, and she was devastated that Tye testified
Speaker 5: against her, absolutely devastated, And I think only then did
Speaker 5: it really hit her that Tie was as instrumental as
Speaker 5: she was in what was going down for Eileen right now.
Speaker 7: In the book, it's another fascinating aspect of the story
Speaker 7: that Eileen Wernos's life and her need for celebrity and
Speaker 7: notoriety don't end. And there are some other people that
Speaker 7: come into her circle of influence there we'll say and
Speaker 7: tell us about to Arlene Prall praorly Yes.
Speaker 5: Arlene Praley was a Christian woman who claimed that she
Speaker 5: saw Eileen on television and felt this calling, looked into
Speaker 5: her eyes and knew that she was innocent, and felt
Speaker 5: this calling to go and see her, and eventually, in
Speaker 5: order to facilitate the visits, she did adopt Eileen. Arlene
Speaker 5: adopted Eileen because that gave her more access to her
Speaker 5: in jail. So there was this adoption for a time.
Speaker 5: They're incredibly close. But by the time Eileen was executed,
Speaker 5: I rang Arlene Pray, who by them was no longer
Speaker 5: living in Florida and was living on an island somewhere
Speaker 5: and I rang her and she didn't know about the execution.
Speaker 5: I sort of broke that news to her. She had
Speaker 5: not even heard. But that's how they're relationship was. At
Speaker 5: that point they were no longer talking.
Speaker 7: Now. Another figure is a Jacqueline Garrow. Maybe you can
Speaker 7: tell us who she was and what her Jackie position was.
Speaker 5: Jackie Chreu is a film producer and actually I'd known her.
Speaker 5: I lived in Hollywood and I'd known Jackie for a
Speaker 5: long time casually, you know, and Jackie, well, it was
Speaker 5: a bit of a convoluted story, but she had a
Speaker 5: HouseGuest who was a friend of her, both of us,
Speaker 5: and I rang the house that day and asked to
Speaker 5: speak to the HouseGuest and she said, Sue, it's me,
Speaker 5: you know, And I said, what are you doing? And
Speaker 5: she said, I'm going to make a movie about this woman,
Speaker 5: Eileen Warnoff. And so why did actually write a book
Speaker 5: about her? And so that's really how that came about.
Speaker 5: So Jackie Cheru was hot on the trail of this
Speaker 5: from the minute of the arrest. Flew to Florida and
Speaker 5: signed up movie rights with Eileen through a lawyer, and
Speaker 5: of course it then all got much more complicated, and
Speaker 5: you know, the basically, Eileen was very much wanting money.
Speaker 5: She always wanted money. It's funny this morning I read
Speaker 5: on pointer that ABC News I believe ABC News I
Speaker 5: can check when we're talking, had paid two hundred thousand
Speaker 5: dollars to the Casey Anthony family for video and pictures. Well, similarly,
Speaker 5: news organizations were paying Eileen money ten thousand here, ten thousand.
Speaker 5: There wasn't the big bucks at ABC paid to the
Speaker 5: Ksey Anthony family. But she was getting this money and
Speaker 5: she lauded it over her team outside the prisons said, Okay,
Speaker 5: this much goes to this one and this much goes
Speaker 5: to that one. And she set exercised control from behind
Speaker 5: bars over these people. And Arlene Prowley was, you know,
Speaker 5: this was top of the list. Because of course Eileen
Speaker 5: couldn't receive the money herself, or at least only a
Speaker 5: limited amount for her touch shop purchases or whatever they're
Speaker 5: allowed in the prison account.
Speaker 7: Did Jackie Guru end up making the movie?
Speaker 5: Jackie Drew did make a movie, but she had a
Speaker 5: lot of troubles with it because, first of all, while
Speaker 5: I was writing the book, CBS rushed out a TV
Speaker 5: movie starring Gene Smart, which was as inaccurate as you
Speaker 5: could wish in terms of painting Tyreea again as unaware
Speaker 5: of the crimes, and you know, what have you. And
Speaker 5: then of course, you know, long came Monster and I
Speaker 5: don't you'd have to ask Jackie Drew herself about her
Speaker 5: movie journey. But it was quite a journey, and all
Speaker 5: kinds of ins and outs for people trying to stop
Speaker 5: and make the movie. And then you know, there were
Speaker 5: issues of three police officers having an agreement with CBS
Speaker 5: where they would cooperate in the making of that first movie.
Speaker 5: And although ultimately it was not proven that they had
Speaker 5: taken money. And this was pre trial, by the way,
Speaker 5: so this was pretty bad stuff. I do have a
Speaker 5: copy of the draft letter of the agreement that the
Speaker 5: police officers were supposedly going to sign from that time,
Speaker 5: but it does not bear signatures, and I do believe
Speaker 5: that they backed out, you know, but at the time
Speaker 5: they were being offered quite a chunk of change. And
Speaker 5: then there was somebody running around trying to sell transcripts
Speaker 5: of the confession, the three hour confession before before that
Speaker 5: was made put in the public domain and was accessible
Speaker 5: to journalists like myself and you know, asking ten thousand
Speaker 5: dollars for that. So it was a zoo, Dan, It
Speaker 5: was a zoo. It's the kind of zoo that we
Speaker 5: now see more commonly, you know, with cases like Casey Anthony,
Speaker 5: But back then it was a sort of standout zoo,
Speaker 5: if you will. And her greed for the money essentially
Speaker 5: cut off my contact with her because I wasn't going
Speaker 5: to pay her, and you know, people like the news
Speaker 5: organizations and Montell Williams ended up getting much more access
Speaker 5: to her. Nick Broomfield, the documentarian, because they did pay money.
Speaker 7: I saw a program are concerning Lee Warren else on
Speaker 7: American Justice, and I thought it was a fair program
Speaker 7: as a reputable program as well, not as well, but
Speaker 7: it is a reputable program, I should say, right, and
Speaker 7: they do handle the cases in a very respectful and
Speaker 7: truthful way, I find so. Yes, now you said that
Speaker 7: she was ultimately sentenced to sixth death sentences. Was she executed?
Speaker 7: When was she executed?
Speaker 5: Yes, she was executed, she was indeed, and totally coincidentally,
Speaker 5: you know, within a month or or so of my
Speaker 5: book coming out in America, and you know that was
Speaker 5: just looking to see who I can find the date here,
Speaker 5: but anyway, it was two thousand and two. It was
Speaker 5: the fall of two thousand and two. And yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean she was executed and the last high profile woman
Speaker 5: to have been executed. And I don't think any woman's
Speaker 5: been executed in Florida since Iileen, but I would have
Speaker 5: to check that. Ultimately, she gave up her appeals. She
Speaker 5: wanted to die, She wanted to go and be with God.
Speaker 5: And she had at the time a lawyer, Stephen Glazier,
Speaker 5: who honored and respected that wish of hers, which caused
Speaker 5: outrage in the legal community, who believed that, you know,
Speaker 5: if a client says they want to die, you certainly
Speaker 5: don't help them on their way. Perhaps, you know, after
Speaker 5: when she I talked to her, Eileen, very but briefly,
Speaker 5: the night before she got her first death sentence by telephone,
Speaker 5: and we spoke and it was very apparent to me
Speaker 5: that she expected to get off.
Speaker 7: She did.
Speaker 5: There wasn't a corner of her mind that thought she
Speaker 5: was going to be found guilty. She cried on the
Speaker 5: witness stand. She told this horror story, but it didn't
Speaker 5: match the evidence, and of course she was found guilty.
Speaker 5: She was devastated Dan. She was doubtless in a state
Speaker 5: of depression. She then got three more death sentences, which
Speaker 5: were what's the word she pled out basically, and so
Speaker 5: therefore there were sentencing hearings and I attended those as well,
Speaker 5: and so she basically sort of caved in and said, look, okay,
Speaker 5: I did it. She didn't even fight. There wasn't another
Speaker 5: trial after the first trial. It was a no contest issue,
Speaker 5: and she did reach a point when she just wanted
Speaker 5: to give up the appeals. She had disintegrated emotionally. She
Speaker 5: was never the most stable person, as we've said, but
Speaker 5: on death row she'd definitely gone downhill. But that said,
Speaker 5: she'd also embraced the Bible, embraced God, embraced her religion,
Speaker 5: believed she was going to a better place, and that
Speaker 5: was what she wanted. She'd had ten years shut in
Speaker 5: a cell on her own, and it was like, you
Speaker 5: know enough already. I don't want any more of this.
Speaker 5: And so at that point she dropped her appeals, and
Speaker 5: there were various hearings in front of judges to be
Speaker 5: sure that that was what she wanted, and eventually all
Speaker 5: was cleared and nothing further stood in the way of
Speaker 5: her execution and it went ahead.
Speaker 7: Now do you think you talk in your book extensively
Speaker 7: about the psychopathic mind of the serial killers that crave celebrity.
Speaker 7: They want the notoriety above almost anything else. You talked
Speaker 7: about her late embrace of Christianity or later embrace before
Speaker 7: she died. Do you really believe that she enjoyed this
Speaker 7: entire again moment in the sun her attention?
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, well, you know you have to look at
Speaker 5: it this way. She talked to Cammy Green about, you know,
Speaker 5: do you want to get involved in something with me?
Speaker 5: And Ty were going to be like Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 5: She kept talking about Bonnie and Clyde, when before she
Speaker 5: had committed any of the murders we know about, she
Speaker 5: got hold of this chap who was a writer slash
Speaker 5: coach driver, and had him come over to the motel
Speaker 5: that they were living in one evening because she wanted
Speaker 5: him to write her life story, and he was so
Speaker 5: freaked out that he kind of fled from the motel
Speaker 5: and never to be seen again. She when she was
Speaker 5: in jail, she talked about being I'm Eileen Warnos of television.
Speaker 5: You know, wait till heraldo here's about this. There was
Speaker 5: definitely some grandiosity, and yes, I do believe she wanted
Speaker 5: to be famous. I just don't think she believed it
Speaker 5: would end up the way it ended up up. You know,
Speaker 5: it's arguable, I guess how conscious all of this was
Speaker 5: played into her thinking. I still believe that she was
Speaker 5: a robber who killed, but definitely she wanted fame. And
Speaker 5: back then, you know, when she was a little more
Speaker 5: of sound mind, she pursued come to you know, think
Speaker 5: about it. Before she'd done anything, she said, I'm going
Speaker 5: to tell you to this author slash coach driver, I'm
Speaker 5: going to tell you things that you know will make
Speaker 5: your hair stand on end, that you've you know, things
Speaker 5: you've never heard before. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 5: It was there more to tell I don't know. But
Speaker 5: this was before the first murder. What did she think
Speaker 5: this book was going to be about? What was she
Speaker 5: going to write a book about? I have no idea,
Speaker 5: but she wanted a book written about her. She wanted fame.
Speaker 5: She wanted, you know, to be famous for sure, and
Speaker 5: the Bonnie and Clyde fantasy was big with her and
Speaker 5: long lasting.
Speaker 7: Well, so we just have about a minute left. I'd
Speaker 7: like to let people know that you've been talking about
Speaker 7: the book A Lethal Intent, the most shocking shocking two
Speaker 7: story of one America's most notorious female serial killers, Eileen Warren. Else,
Speaker 7: maybe you can tell us what you're working on now
Speaker 7: and your website contact for anybody that's interested, please.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, Well, my website is www dot Sue.
Speaker 3: S U E.
Speaker 5: Russell r U S S E. L L Rights w
Speaker 5: R I T E S dot com, Sue russellwits dot com.
Speaker 5: What I'm working on now? Ha ha ha ha. Wouldn't
Speaker 5: you like to know?
Speaker 8: That's that question?
Speaker 5: Actually am working on another crime book proposal, and hopefully
Speaker 5: we'll be able to talk about that soon, but it's
Speaker 5: a bit premature right now. But I've been writing about
Speaker 5: wildfire technology for a wonderful website called Miller mckewne dot com.
Speaker 5: Just had a five part series with them on extreme
Speaker 5: wildfire fighting and the advances in computer imaging and mapping
Speaker 5: and what have you. And I've written about fingerprints and
Speaker 5: bias and all kinds of forensic stuff, you know, for
Speaker 5: non books, for magazines and websites. So that's really been
Speaker 5: the most recent stuff.
Speaker 7: Well, very interesting stuff. I want to thank you very
Speaker 7: much to Russell, and I want you to have a
Speaker 7: great day, and I want to thank you very much
Speaker 7: for this fascinating interview.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Dan. I appreciated it and I enjoyed it.
Speaker 7: I enjoyed it very much myself. You have a great day,
Speaker 7: Take care, Bye bye bye. You're listening to the program
Speaker 7: True Murder, The More Shocking Killers in True Crime History,
Speaker 7: with your host Dan SUPASKI. Good night.
Speaker 8: For those who have been listening to the special rebroadcast
Speaker 8: of Lethal Intent, my original interview with Sue Russell about
Speaker 8: her book Lethal Intent. She contacted me on the sixtieth
Speaker 8: what would have been sixtieth birthday of Aleen Warnos, the
Speaker 8: subject of Lethal Intent and special offer of an audible
Speaker 8: audio book. There's two of them to give away. I
Speaker 8: know it was short notice and didn't post this program
Speaker 8: till this evening, so a lot of the fans that
Speaker 8: would be very interested in this, I'm sure might not
Speaker 8: have an opportunity for this. So I had originally said
Speaker 8: that the first two people that called in after this
Speaker 8: program aired, and since I didn't give enough advanced notice
Speaker 8: of that, then what I'm going to do is for
Speaker 8: anyone who listens to this program this evening. The first
Speaker 8: two people that contact me via my personal email address,
Speaker 8: which is Dan dot zupanskis up A n. S k
Speaker 8: Y at gmail dot com. The first two listeners to
Speaker 8: this program whenever that may be, contact me at my
Speaker 8: personal Gmail address, and you can win. Not you can win,
Speaker 8: you will. I'll give you the code so that you
Speaker 8: will have and be sent and have access to an
Speaker 8: audible audiobook version of Lethal Intent. So I want to
Speaker 8: thank you very much for listening to this special rebroadcast.
Speaker 8: And again, if you're interested for an audible audiobook version
Speaker 8: of Lethal Intent, contact me via my personal email. Good night,