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<v Speaker 1>Bill Cunningham, the great American.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, masculinity more or less's on the ballot this November.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't think of masculinity being on the ballot. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course Nikki Haley and others are advising the Trumpster

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<v Speaker 2>to tone down that bro stuff and talk about women's

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<v Speaker 2>problems and men's problems. Normally in our society we focus

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<v Speaker 2>upon women one way or another. But there's a great

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<v Speaker 2>book up by doctor Ronald Levant, Professor Emeritis of Psychology,

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<v Speaker 2>University of akronym More, former President about this of the

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<v Speaker 2>American Psychological Association. Devoted forty years of his life to

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<v Speaker 2>studying masculinity, and doctor Ronald Levant, welcome, I think for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time to the Bill Cunningham Show. And let

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<v Speaker 2>me begin by saying, it's fascinating you studied masculinity. Why

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<v Speaker 2>did you begin this line of work about forty years ago?

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<v Speaker 2>And secondly, what have you found if anything?

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<v Speaker 3>Wow? Well, okay. I got into the study of masculinity

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<v Speaker 3>through the study of fathering, and as we say in psychology,

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<v Speaker 3>most research is research. I got into fathering because I

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<v Speaker 3>was struggling with the role of being a divorced partially

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<v Speaker 3>custodial father.

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<v Speaker 4>Of a tween age daughter at that time, and as

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<v Speaker 4>I kind of started working with fathers and what I

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<v Speaker 4>tried to do, I was on the faculty at Boston

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<v Speaker 4>University at the time, was trying to provide fathers with

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<v Speaker 4>parent education skills because at that time, in the early eighties,

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<v Speaker 4>men were.

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<v Speaker 3>Just beginning to be visibly involved with children. You could

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<v Speaker 3>see men carrying infants in chess packs or pushing rollers

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<v Speaker 3>in Harvard Square. And as a result of, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>kind of doing that work, I discovered that many men

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<v Speaker 3>have difficulty expressing their remote except for one, which is anger.

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<v Speaker 3>And that is kind of what led me into this

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<v Speaker 3>particular study. But what really fueled it with my childhood

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<v Speaker 3>and I had a emotionally and physically abusive father who

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<v Speaker 3>did not need to be so mean and bad, but

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<v Speaker 3>he was. And you know, it kind of got me

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<v Speaker 3>curious as to what makes men become so violent, and

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<v Speaker 3>that was really I.

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<v Speaker 1>Read their stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, a girl, dad is a problem today, And

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<v Speaker 2>you say, why are so many men problematically unable to

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<v Speaker 2>describe how they feel? I have difficulty explaining how I feel.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not supposed I got the shields up. You then say,

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<v Speaker 2>neglecting their health. If my wife did not insist that

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<v Speaker 2>I go to like seven or eight doctors every year

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<v Speaker 2>or two, I would never go at all. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>explode in rage except maybe on the golf course and

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<v Speaker 2>then resorting to violences something as an attorney, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think I've ever done. But men are programmed to be

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<v Speaker 2>like their father. Is it nurture or is it genetics?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it the fact that we spent millions of years

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<v Speaker 2>defending the cave or defending our heart and health? And

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<v Speaker 2>I see myself as a protector and this bleeds over

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<v Speaker 2>to my personal behavior, and that men often die alone,

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<v Speaker 2>and that they refer why are why? Why is that

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<v Speaker 2>the case? Is it genetic or is it nurture or both?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's both. But we can't do much about the genetics,

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<v Speaker 3>but we can do a lot about the nurture. And

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<v Speaker 3>as a psychologist, I have tools to deal with the nurture.

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<v Speaker 3>And so that's kind of why I focused on it.

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<v Speaker 3>And it has to do with it, starting with how

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<v Speaker 3>we raise our boys to conform to these rigid masculine norms,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly about playing. You know, big boys don't cry or

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<v Speaker 3>no or worse, you get threatened if you don't stop crying.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll give you something to really cry about.

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<v Speaker 1>That's it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, and so you know, obviously it's both.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, we don't know how to change genes, but

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<v Speaker 3>we do know how to change behavior. And let's talk

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<v Speaker 3>about health. Men die now, and this has gotten worse

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<v Speaker 3>six point three And this is us six point three

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<v Speaker 3>years sooner than women. Okay, it used to be in

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<v Speaker 3>the fives. And men have more diseases in every major

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<v Speaker 3>category of illness. And while there are some small genetic

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<v Speaker 3>factors associated with female sex hormones that give them a

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<v Speaker 3>slight advantage, the bulk of the evidence suggests it men's behavior.

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<v Speaker 3>Men put their health at risk through not wearing seatbelts,

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<v Speaker 3>not using sunblock, not visiting their positions when they're sick. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>you're laughing, you know what I'm.

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<v Speaker 2>Talking absolutely absolutely, And you talk about cigars. The guys

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<v Speaker 2>that I play golf with, cigars are in their mouths constantly.

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<v Speaker 2>They have health problems that they want to hold inside

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<v Speaker 2>themselves and not express. Wearing a seatbelt of something I

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<v Speaker 2>resisted for decades because it wasn't a macho image of

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<v Speaker 2>Steve McQueen. Sunblock. I used to play get outside, work,

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<v Speaker 2>play golf, never wore copper tone. You didn't think about it? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>women are just different. So well, I guess. Getting getting

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<v Speaker 2>back to the election, you say that supposedly the country

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<v Speaker 2>is ready to elect the first female president, Kamala Harris.

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<v Speaker 2>But does she possess enough masculine traits in her personality

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<v Speaker 2>to persuade those undecided that she can lead a divided nation?

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<v Speaker 2>And I ask you the question. According to the polling,

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<v Speaker 2>trumpsters up about ten points with men and down about

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<v Speaker 2>ten points with women, just the opposite of Kamala Harris.

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<v Speaker 2>And so is America ready for a female?

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>Especially one may I use the term minority? Are we

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<v Speaker 2>men ready for that commander in chief?

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<v Speaker 3>Well? I hope so. But let's look at sort of

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<v Speaker 3>a term that's kind of been bandied about in this election,

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<v Speaker 3>which is the alpha male. Now, the primatologists dual who

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<v Speaker 3>recently passed away that there really are two versions of

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<v Speaker 3>the alpha male. Now, remember he studied chimpanzees, not humans.

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<v Speaker 3>But in the chimpanzee troops, there are two versions of

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<v Speaker 3>the alpha male. There's the dominant alpha who achieves this

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<v Speaker 3>power by force, right, and who tends to be have

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<v Speaker 3>a short tenure because all it takes is a coalition

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<v Speaker 3>of threer for other chimpanzees to overthrow them, okay, and

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<v Speaker 3>that happens frequently. And then there's the populate what du

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<v Speaker 3>All called the populist alpha, which again we're talking about chimpanzees,

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<v Speaker 3>so that populist has to have a little quotation marks

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<v Speaker 3>on it. But what he's referring to are chimpanzees, the

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<v Speaker 3>male chimpanzees, who achieved their power by taking care of

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<v Speaker 3>the troop, by providing resources like food and shelter, by

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<v Speaker 3>carrying for sick or injured members of the troop, And

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<v Speaker 3>that particular alpha has a long tenure and is actually

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<v Speaker 3>thought to be loved by the other chimps. If you

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<v Speaker 3>look at the current election, the contrast is very similar.

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<v Speaker 3>Although Harris is obviously not a man, but she represents

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<v Speaker 3>that populous alpha. She leads by taking care. He has

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<v Speaker 3>recently said, she's if she wins, she's going to be

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<v Speaker 3>a president of all the people, right right, and doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>she doesn't care what you're whether Republican, Democrat, independent, He's

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<v Speaker 3>going to do for you, whereas Tom Trump clearly is,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the dominant alpha.

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<v Speaker 2>He's in a garbage truck. And the other thing that

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<v Speaker 2>you never see Kamala Harrison a draft yes or something feminine.

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<v Speaker 2>Same way with Hillary Clinton. It was always in a

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<v Speaker 2>pantsuit with their chest out and looking upwards because she

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<v Speaker 2>they figured they got the female vote already. But let's

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<v Speaker 2>go after the alpha male. One thing you bring up

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<v Speaker 2>about the alpha male, I think a Planet of the

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<v Speaker 2>Apes in all those series, Caesar what was ahead of

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<v Speaker 2>the Planet of the Apes at one point, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was smaller than the orangutangs, but he had a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of strength, but he had had the wiles of

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<v Speaker 2>a male to manipulate the group. And in the business

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<v Speaker 2>setting or in life, if you have a Caesar type chimpanzee,

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<v Speaker 2>and this guy isn't the biggest, the strongest, the bravest,

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<v Speaker 2>the best looking, but the personality as such like a

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<v Speaker 2>Napoleon for example, a smaller guy who can actually dominate,

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<v Speaker 2>that's important. So when it comes down to politics, isn't

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<v Speaker 2>it important for female candidates not to have a feminine

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<v Speaker 2>side in a sense because they want to communicate to

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<v Speaker 2>the tony benders of the world, the alpha males of

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<v Speaker 2>the world, that I'm like you I'm tough and I'm mean,

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<v Speaker 2>and I can curse. I can say at a bar

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<v Speaker 2>with Governor Whitmer and use the F word. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>I said this recently in a mating here at iHeartMedia

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<v Speaker 2>that basically women use the F word and aggressive language

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<v Speaker 2>much more than males. If a male in that setting

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<v Speaker 2>with a lot of professional females which dropped the F

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<v Speaker 2>bomb here and there, people look at them. But if

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<v Speaker 2>a woman does it, you get patted on the back. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>you're one of us. Is that part of the diet,

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<v Speaker 2>part of the mechanism.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. There have been a number of studies of successful

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<v Speaker 3>women in a variety of settings, in the military and

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<v Speaker 3>the corporate world and in politics, and clearly, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they have to demonstrate what are called stereotypically called masculine characteristics.

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<v Speaker 3>But these are easy to attain. You know, when I

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<v Speaker 3>was a college I went to college at Berkeley, the

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<v Speaker 3>University of California, Berkeley in the sixties. I'm an old guy,

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<v Speaker 3>but the women that I knew it at Berkeley we're

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<v Speaker 3>taking assertiveness training classes to overcome the effects of their

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<v Speaker 3>gender role, socialization to be dependent on and different to men.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think women who succeed in the political world

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<v Speaker 3>and the corporate world obviously have to take on masculine

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<v Speaker 3>characteristics because these worlds are male dominated, and to succeed,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, you've got to play by the guy's rules.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Are you ready for the big question?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 2>I look at society and it's less and less and

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<v Speaker 2>less likely that a poor Wide or a poor Black

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<v Speaker 2>male is going to grow up with a father figure

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<v Speaker 2>in the home. Very unlikely if you live in a

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<v Speaker 2>poor Hispanic area or a poor White or a poor

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<v Speaker 2>Black area. Males tend to get what's important what is

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<v Speaker 2>not important from the street and the breakdown of the

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<v Speaker 2>family and faith the last thirty to forty years is

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<v Speaker 2>exhibited by the crime rate and by drugs and carcer failing.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of the human beings in college are female, and

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<v Speaker 2>when my wife attend at the University of Cincinnati in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen nineties in law school, hers was the first

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<v Speaker 2>class with the dominant female students. Women succeed in our

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<v Speaker 2>society much more than men succeed. We're more likely to

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<v Speaker 2>be on drugs, more likely to be in jail, more

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<v Speaker 2>likely to have drinking problems, more likely to have health progs,

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<v Speaker 2>more likely not to live as long, but all of

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<v Speaker 2>society is structured to build up the female and tear

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<v Speaker 2>down the male as part of the debaucherous behavior we

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<v Speaker 2>see in our society today caused by lack of male

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<v Speaker 2>figures growing up as a little boy proper.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I don't think so. I don't think that.

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<v Speaker 1>Give me.

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<v Speaker 3>Uri Bronson Brenner, who is a world famous developmental psychologists,

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<v Speaker 3>after studying multiple families over dozens of years, concluded that

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<v Speaker 3>every child needs at least one adult who is absolutely

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<v Speaker 3>crazy about them, and it doesn't matter what their gender is.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it can be a mother, it can be

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<v Speaker 3>a father. You know what I think. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 3>agree with the facts that you presented, But what I

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<v Speaker 3>think has happened is that if you go back to

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<v Speaker 3>the nineteen fifties, where women couldn't even get a credit

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<v Speaker 3>card with a male signing for them, is that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the what's called the second wave feminist movement that began

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<v Speaker 3>in nineteen sixty seven, that women have dramatically changed their

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<v Speaker 3>gender role, you know, from the sixties to the present,

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<v Speaker 3>and as a result, have achieved the kind of success

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<v Speaker 3>you've talked about. But sadly, men have remained duck and

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<v Speaker 3>attached to this outmoded model of masculinity that was prevalent

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<v Speaker 3>in the nineteen fifties. Men have not changed, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they've changed some, like the men's participation in parenting has

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<v Speaker 3>actually changed rather dramatically for the most part, taking care

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<v Speaker 3>of their health, being able to express their emotions. Men

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<v Speaker 3>have really as a whole, not changed. And part of

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<v Speaker 3>what I try to do as a psychologist is trying

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<v Speaker 3>to encourage men to recognize that what is so called

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<v Speaker 3>they're so called feminine side, their emotional intelligence, their compassion,

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<v Speaker 3>their empathy are not feminine but human, and they're you know,

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<v Speaker 3>like very valuable traits to have and every human it

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<v Speaker 3>has the capacity for them. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Lastly, when I look at the Muslim world, whether it's

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<v Speaker 2>Afghanistan or Syria or on Iraq Egypt, I could not

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<v Speaker 2>imagine a worse place for a woman or female to

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<v Speaker 2>exist than in the world in which you're literally the

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<v Speaker 2>property of your husband or the property your father married off.

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<v Speaker 2>Platoral eradication. They have terrible circuit. They have not the

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<v Speaker 2>ability to In Afghanistan right now, women cannot be heard

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<v Speaker 2>in public. She's clothed from the top of her head

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<v Speaker 2>at the bottom of her feet. She's beaten on a

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<v Speaker 2>regular basis. She has no rights at all, and that

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<v Speaker 2>has been going on for decades, if not centuries. What

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<v Speaker 2>is the Can you briefly comment, if you can't, about

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<v Speaker 2>what happens in a billion households around the world where

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<v Speaker 2>women literally are beaten marginalized by men and their conditioned

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<v Speaker 2>to do so. Have you studied any of the problems

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<v Speaker 2>of women in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, terrible circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>Their status is ignored in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. The United Nations publishes the Gender Equality Index, where

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<v Speaker 3>they rank countries based on the extent to which the

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<v Speaker 3>sexes are equal, and the countries you mentioned are down

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<v Speaker 3>at the bottom. The United States is number seventeen, so

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<v Speaker 3>we're not great. The highest countries tend to be Western Europe,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly the Scandinavian countries. And I visited Norway several times

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<v Speaker 3>and to me, the differences palpable. The women that I

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<v Speaker 3>met there are so empowered, although you know, women in

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<v Speaker 3>the US are somewhat empowered, but not like the women

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<v Speaker 3>in Norway. So I think it really depends on kind

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<v Speaker 3>of the society and the ability of women like in

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<v Speaker 3>the United States. Essentially, look, in the nineteen fifties, less

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<v Speaker 3>than the only single digits of mothers of small children

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<v Speaker 3>were in the workforce. By nineteen eighty five, fifty percent

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<v Speaker 3>of the mothers of children under the age of six

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<v Speaker 3>were in the workforce. Okay, that was a dramatic change

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<v Speaker 3>that women took upon themselves. And the next thing that

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<v Speaker 3>happened was what we call the divorce revolution that began

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<v Speaker 3>in nineteen sixty five and went to eighty five, where

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<v Speaker 3>two thirds of the divorces were initiated by the wives.

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<v Speaker 3>So look at what happened. Women gained financial independence from men,

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<v Speaker 3>and then they lived left bad marriages and droves and

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<v Speaker 3>the statistics he reported earlier. They then populated, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>colleges and graduate in law schools and medical schools, and

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<v Speaker 3>they're just you know, as we as well known, girls

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<v Speaker 3>and women are doing much better than boys and men

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<v Speaker 3>on every educational, health and social indicator there is. And

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<v Speaker 3>my hope is that we start raising boys differently, that

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<v Speaker 3>we stop forcing them to conform to these outmoded masculine

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<v Speaker 3>norms of being unemotional, tough, and dominant, and recognize we're

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<v Speaker 3>living in a totally different society and they need to

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<v Speaker 3>develop those bills that are labeled feminine, like emotional self

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<v Speaker 3>awareness and compassion and empathy to succeed in today's world.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we have to go, but we only scratch the surface,

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<v Speaker 2>not even scratch the surface. But the book is the

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<v Speaker 2>problem with men. Insights on overcoming a tramatic childhood from

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<v Speaker 2>a world renowned psychologist, that's you, doctor Ronald Levant. The

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<v Speaker 2>book is everywhere. Once again, thank you for coming on

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<v Speaker 2>the Bill cunning Game Show and doctor you're a great American.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much. Thank you, God bless you.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's continue with more women dominate the world. Yet they

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<v Speaker 2>convince everyone they're victims. It's a nice psychological ploy, but

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<v Speaker 2>we know what it is. Bill Cunningham, News Radio seven

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<v Speaker 2>hundred WLW