Speaker 1: Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Speaker 1: Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special edition of Full Circle
Speaker 1: the podcast. With us today is Rio Cortes, a Harlem
Speaker 1: based writer whose work has appeared in The New Yorker,
Speaker 1: The Atlantic, The Miami Rail, and many other publications. She
Speaker 1: is also the author of the New York Times best
Speaker 1: selling title The ABC's of Black History and The River
Speaker 1: Is My Ocean, as well as the adult poetry collection Goldennacks,
Speaker 1: which was long listed for a National Book Award. We're
Speaker 1: here to talk about The ABC's of Women's History, a
Speaker 1: book fresh out in twenty twenty five. Rio Courtes, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the Full Circle Table.
Speaker 2: Thank you, it's o good to be here. Thanks for
Speaker 2: having me absolutely.
Speaker 3: First of all, I just want to say that when
Speaker 3: I read the book, I don't usually say the word
Speaker 3: wonderful like that. That's just not a word that naturally
Speaker 3: comes out of my mouth. But at least five times
Speaker 3: on going through like this is wonderful.
Speaker 2: That makes me so happy.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to assume I just want to go
Speaker 1: backward a little bit. So in December of twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: you put out The ABC's of Black History. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: became a bestseller. I love the format.
Speaker 2: Yeah, telling history like through the alphabet. I learned in
Speaker 2: the writing that there's like you probably you probably already
Speaker 2: know this, but aba ab sidarian, it's a whole word
Speaker 2: about using the alphabet to you know, as the structure
Speaker 2: of a book.
Speaker 1: So I love it, Okay, I do. I know that.
Speaker 1: There is also the ABC's of Queer History, which didn't write,
Speaker 1: but a friend did.
Speaker 2: Yes, mean we met mutually through the publisher, and she's
Speaker 2: an amazing writer and she's also a medical doctor.
Speaker 1: I saw that. I saw that. Now I want the
Speaker 1: other two books, but the ABC's of Women's History, I can't.
Speaker 1: It's so timely. Really, this is so timely. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I work a lot with the trans community. Everyone is
Speaker 1: kind of reeling and not knowing what's going to happen
Speaker 1: next and what are they going to try to do
Speaker 1: on a federal level. And you know, our states, right's
Speaker 1: going to hold because you know, we are in New
Speaker 1: Jersey and New York right where right now things are
Speaker 1: okay for us, but could change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and depending on where you live, which is what
Speaker 2: we don't want right exactly federal productions to really function
Speaker 2: so that if you're not a completely different reality if
Speaker 2: you live in New York, or if you live in
Speaker 2: Mississippi or Kansas or you know, so things.
Speaker 1: Are already bad and getting worse for a lot of folks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and at a time when books are being either banned
Speaker 1: or burned or both, where do I love this one?
Speaker 3: Exactly? I was like, ooh, this this book is going
Speaker 3: to be called woke, all left, right, and sideway.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that's perfect. I assume you're prepared for that, right.
Speaker 2: I Actually, I'm so glad that we're talking. This is
Speaker 2: the first time that we have really been able to
Speaker 2: talk about like our political reality alongside this book. Surprisingly,
Speaker 2: and it's true like with the ABC's of Black History,
Speaker 2: it was it was banned in Miami, Florida. But in
Speaker 2: the ABC's were History, we talk a lot about shadow banning,
Speaker 2: where even if people aren't banning the book, that merchandisers
Speaker 2: and retailers aren't taking a big position on the book
Speaker 2: because they don't want to deal with their customers, and
Speaker 2: so it's like a shadow like it's quietly banned in
Speaker 2: a way because they're not putting it out on the shelves,
Speaker 2: you know, because they don't want to engage in like
Speaker 2: volatile discourse with folks who come in the store, and
Speaker 2: so I think that's also happening all the time, especially
Speaker 2: with queer centered books. But with women's history, I feel, yeah,
Speaker 2: basically at there ready because there were certain things that
Speaker 2: I think, are you have to that were unavoidable for
Speaker 2: me to talk about in the book, like consent, for example,
Speaker 2: or choice to include trans women in the story of
Speaker 2: women's history. All these things that I imagine and I
Speaker 2: anticipate that somebody out there is gonna have an issue with.
Speaker 2: So hasn't happened. I mean, it just came out, So
Speaker 2: I don't know. But the world is magically a better place.
Speaker 2: But there are positions that I felt really strongly about
Speaker 2: taking in the book that, yeah, that I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm prepared for a little bit of opposition about.
Speaker 1: Which is sad but a reality right now exactly of
Speaker 1: the current discourse, which is upside down and insane. I mean,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four was supposed to be a warning, not
Speaker 1: a house you got, not a guidebook, right, but you
Speaker 1: did touch on those things. And as I read through
Speaker 1: the book, you talk about so many powerful women through history.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until I got until the very end when
Speaker 1: I realized there was a section on you know, terms
Speaker 1: and figures. But as I went through and you mentioned
Speaker 1: these names, I thought, what a great primer, you know
Speaker 1: for a parent, right to teach, more right to say,
Speaker 1: just to put a spark kind of on every page,
Speaker 1: like who are these women? When did they live, what
Speaker 1: did they do? And you provide, you know, a pretty
Speaker 1: concise piece in the in the back to read about
Speaker 1: the women who are mentioned in the book. But I
Speaker 1: still think, you know, talk about your what she used
Speaker 1: to do?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So my I'm biracial. My mother was white,
Speaker 3: my father was black, and my mom wanted to make
Speaker 3: sure that, you know, I was versed in black history,
Speaker 3: so she would bring these We had these black history
Speaker 3: calendars and each month was a different figure and so
Speaker 3: like she made me write like a couple of paragraphs
Speaker 3: about each person. Maybe you know, so that's why I
Speaker 3: know who like sojournal Truth and Benjamin Bannerer and those
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. And these things are important
Speaker 3: for parents to make sure that your kids, you know,
Speaker 3: have more than what they will be fed in school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh I love that. I love that ear mom
Speaker 2: did that. Yeah, absolutely, And I feel like, thank you
Speaker 2: for acknowledging the back matter. Takes a lot of time
Speaker 2: to create that as a resource, but I feel like
Speaker 2: it's so important because you could go and I really hope,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't hope that there are people no
Speaker 2: one knows by I love when there are moments where
Speaker 2: you encounter a name that you've never heard before and
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, let me, actually I don't know who
Speaker 2: that is, like whether you're with the young person or not, like,
Speaker 2: let me look at the back and see. I think
Speaker 2: those moments are discovery. Is kind of what we're hoping
Speaker 2: for when we create a text like this.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I learned a couple of things. I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Oh I see it happening. I really do. That's how
Speaker 1: we learned about Polly Murray. Oh oh, right in the
Speaker 1: middle of an interview. Because before Rosa Parks and before
Speaker 1: Claudik Colvin.
Speaker 2: Yes, was Paully Murray absolutely.
Speaker 1: A person at the time no one wanted to hold
Speaker 1: up as a figure, but you know what a brilliant
Speaker 1: human in the course of our history and in the
Speaker 1: course of civil rights history.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, yeah, exactly moments like that poly Murray.
Speaker 2: I learned later about poly Murray in life too, and
Speaker 2: I feel like that's it's just like it's so helpful
Speaker 2: in grounding and inspiring to to find out that folks
Speaker 2: were doing this type of work and unacknowledged at the time,
Speaker 2: that you thought that you really understood the key players.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and that, you know, brings me to.
Speaker 1: How did you.
Speaker 3: Narrow down the list of women? It's like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 3: doing a book about notable women, and I'm only going
Speaker 3: to make the book this long.
Speaker 2: I know, it's like impossible. As a prompt, it was
Speaker 2: like women's history, okay, so like from the beginning of
Speaker 2: time like that, Like it was very hard. Well, first
Speaker 2: I narrowed it. It's it's mostly American women. There's a
Speaker 2: couple of global figures in there, but I think to
Speaker 2: do a global women's history would be a different project.
Speaker 2: And then I would say it's probably like in the
Speaker 2: last one hundred and fifty years. So that helped a
Speaker 2: little bit, right, And then after that I started thinking
Speaker 2: more by like discipline, you know, like visual artists, people
Speaker 2: who were in the labor movement, people who maybe you know,
Speaker 2: were community organizers, librarians, people who were in the environmental field,
Speaker 2: people who were in public policy and made change that way.
Speaker 2: So then I once I started to kind of have
Speaker 2: those themes around everything then and my background is in poetry,
Speaker 2: so the whole the verse rhymes, and so that also
Speaker 2: has it.
Speaker 3: I love that part of how.
Speaker 2: You could include everyone, but I did. I woke up
Speaker 2: like all the time in the writing of this book,
Speaker 2: like thinking of women that I needed to include and hadn't.
Speaker 2: So it gave me a lot of anxiety. But the
Speaker 2: back matter helped too, because then I'm like, all right,
Speaker 2: some people who aren't in the verse still are in
Speaker 2: the back matter. And then Lauren the illustrator, sometimes if
Speaker 2: we couldn't fit it in the verse, she could illustrate
Speaker 2: the person age and name them, and so that was
Speaker 2: another device we used to get as many figures as
Speaker 2: we could in the book.
Speaker 1: I love how co cohesive the illustration is with the text.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, she's great.
Speaker 1: You know, the story is told, you know, both with
Speaker 1: words and in the text of each page. And you know,
Speaker 1: Maya Angelo is my absolute favorite writer of all time.
Speaker 1: I don't I met her once, very briefly and before
Speaker 1: I transitioned because I worked at the University of Pennsylvania
Speaker 1: and she had come to speak, so I got to
Speaker 1: say hello, I got to shake her hand, but I
Speaker 1: never I don't know where she would have kind of
Speaker 1: stood if we had met and talked much in person today,
Speaker 1: But I do know. You know, she's a huge inspiration
Speaker 1: because here is a woman who was six feet tall,
Speaker 1: whose voice was deeper than mine, who was not traditionally
Speaker 1: pretty by you know, at least American standards, and yet
Speaker 1: knew herself yea, as something magical and knew herself as
Speaker 1: something incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Still I rise hangs in my office. You know,
Speaker 1: it's my favorite poem.
Speaker 2: She's incredible. I love her interviews too. I feel like
Speaker 2: I always get so much out of like she pays,
Speaker 2: Like great series with James Baldwin where they were in conversation, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and some of my favorite when I love when you
Speaker 2: hear writers that you love kind of like spinning conversationally
Speaker 2: and you get more like spontaneous response to things. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I first read that they were friends, I said,
Speaker 1: of course they were friends, right, of course they knew
Speaker 1: one another.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I love that when Nikki Giovanni passed that
Speaker 3: footage of the conversation she had with James Baldwin started
Speaker 3: making the rounds, and I was like, yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really put James baldon with anyone, and I
Speaker 2: feel like it brings out like all the best of thoughts.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it's going.
Speaker 3: To be impossible to not have a good conversation.
Speaker 2: I don't think that I've ever seen you exactly, like,
Speaker 2: I'm not engaging a conversation with you.
Speaker 1: And I have to imagine, you know, having a conversation
Speaker 1: with James Waldwin had to feel like being strip naked,
Speaker 1: like you know, there was just no room for anything
Speaker 1: that wasn't authentic.
Speaker 2: Right to the point of Blade Bear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he wasn't parsing words or suffering fools or
Speaker 1: pretending to be other than James Baldwin.
Speaker 2: Pains.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course the two of them knew each other.
Speaker 1: I want to read from one page just to kind
Speaker 1: of give a flavor sure of the book. I kind
Speaker 1: of picked it randomly. But D is for dreaming out
Speaker 1: loud and in color, Like the artists whose work helps
Speaker 1: us discover, there are new ways of seeing, more than
Speaker 1: one way to be. We can imagine a world beyond
Speaker 1: you and me. Alma Thomas's patterns, Frida Callo's reflections, and
Speaker 1: Jia O'Keeffe's florals teach beautiful lessons on canvas and photographs.
Speaker 1: Sculpted or drawn art is what ensures the artist lives
Speaker 1: on and challenges each of us to create new dawns.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for reading that.
Speaker 1: There's a little story within each page. It's just it's
Speaker 1: beautifully written and so accessible, not just to young people,
Speaker 1: and that's I feel like this is another, you know,
Speaker 1: layer of the subversion we have to consider is you know,
Speaker 1: making not letting history die, not letting our stories not
Speaker 1: be told. And yeah, it has to start there. Like
Speaker 1: I used to take my kids to band's band book week,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like at the bookstore or
Speaker 1: the library and say pick.
Speaker 2: What you like, right exactly. I feel like that's that's
Speaker 2: especially now, like so much of our like the way
Speaker 2: that we tell history is under attack, and so it's
Speaker 2: like when you're at warwith facts and information, it feels
Speaker 2: like even more important impression to make sure that the
Speaker 2: record is kept about some of these books. Yeah, absolutely, it's.
Speaker 3: Very obvious by the list of banned books that they
Speaker 3: are very much going by the reading needs leads to knowledge,
Speaker 3: knowledge leads to power, So we have to squash that now, Like,
Speaker 3: that's totally how that reads. And that's another reason why
Speaker 3: I love how expansive, Like the different types of women
Speaker 3: from all different fields and backgrounds are covered in this
Speaker 3: book because to a young girl, to a young person,
Speaker 3: you have all these different examples of what kind of
Speaker 3: girl you want to be, what kind of women you
Speaker 3: want to grow up to be. And you know, by
Speaker 3: reading this book, you know if I were a little girl, like,
Speaker 3: I could be anything I.
Speaker 1: Want to be.
Speaker 3: Like, I love that, And even it says at the end,
Speaker 3: like you know, you address the reader and it's it's gorgeous.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Yeah, that's one of my favorite spreads.
Speaker 2: I think it's Why is for you?
Speaker 1: Why Is for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, And I love what you said also
Speaker 2: about the power of I mean, I think it tells
Speaker 2: you a lot when they ban our books and they
Speaker 2: ban histories about how powerful it is for us to
Speaker 2: understand them. Right, it's like the other side of the coin,
Speaker 2: like you're.
Speaker 1: Saying, I mean, the fact that it makes them that uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: you know, proves the value of the work exactly and
Speaker 1: the importance of the message. I mean, you know, I've
Speaker 1: talked often about it. I should not have been a
Speaker 1: full grown adult before I understood Blackwall Street and Oklahoma, right,
Speaker 1: you know, that should have been taught right alongside of
Speaker 1: the rest of it. And the fact that it isn't.
Speaker 1: And we're seeing this, you know, dystopian language right now.
Speaker 3: But to be fair, so was I.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were both adults like that was not in school,
Speaker 1: and you went to an all black school and still
Speaker 1: didn't learn it when you should have, which is astounding.
Speaker 2: I mean, say, yeah, Sabe, there's so many histories I
Speaker 2: feel like were withheld that would have been really powerful
Speaker 2: for me to learn earlier in my life.
Speaker 1: I love that. You That I is for intersectional intersectionality
Speaker 1: is why we started this podcast, right in part Well,
Speaker 1: we realized, you know, we live at this intersection of
Speaker 1: race and gender and orientation, sure, and the conversations we
Speaker 1: have with one another. We thought, you know, this is
Speaker 1: kind of interesting and not something we could find out there,
Speaker 1: so we said, let's do that. Right.
Speaker 2: I love that, And.
Speaker 1: Really that's what this is. Sometimes it's just I don't
Speaker 1: know how to process this. Talk to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how I feel about this. Help me
Speaker 1: understand it from your perspective. And I love that the
Speaker 1: two figures you used for intersectionality were Marsha p. Johnson
Speaker 1: and Sylvia Are there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, really, it was very important for me to
Speaker 2: get them in the text. I couldn't get them in
Speaker 2: the rhyming verse, but I knew. My note in my
Speaker 2: manuscript to Learn was that these were the women I
Speaker 2: wanted to include in that spread. And I feel like
Speaker 2: she did break job illustrating that page.
Speaker 3: I mean, you say, there, we contain multitudes. I mean,
Speaker 3: you don't need much more.
Speaker 1: You know, there is a movement right now, and I
Speaker 1: want to say it's the gender revolution. Is that what
Speaker 1: they're called, led by Raquel Willis and others, really kind
Speaker 1: of pulling together women's rights and the right to choose
Speaker 1: with you know, trans rights because it's all about bodily autonomy,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it also, like I feel like
Speaker 2: it's really important for all of us to see our
Speaker 2: freedom struggles as connected. Yes, you're saying, and so it's
Speaker 2: it's not like, oh, I mean these civil rights for myself,
Speaker 2: but I want to like, but it has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with civil rights, for it has everything to do
Speaker 2: with when they are so connected. And I feel like
Speaker 2: we're even more powerful when we think about that as
Speaker 2: a collective struggle. So but yeah, bodily, absolutely, they're very related.
Speaker 3: Because I'm constantly saying it's all of us, are none
Speaker 3: of us? That's right, you know, And it's crazy that
Speaker 3: that's not the prevalent mindset that it's all the same
Speaker 3: struggle just within the lgbt Q. There's like, you know,
Speaker 3: the L, the G and the B right now is like,
Speaker 3: well we got ours, the tea is over there, and
Speaker 3: it's like no, because who you think is next, you
Speaker 3: are directly next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are still some that, yeah, that's struggle
Speaker 1: with that, and you know too many arguments that you know,
Speaker 1: race and gender, identity and orientation are not the same, yes,
Speaker 1: but in so many ways they are. In so many ways,
Speaker 1: it is the other ring. It is the marginalization. You know,
Speaker 1: if we can point to you as someone to hate,
Speaker 1: you won't notice while we pick your pockets, which is
Speaker 1: the game really, I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of us are many things at once,
Speaker 2: you know, I have to think about that like in
Speaker 2: terms of you know, anti blackness, and I'm half Puerto
Speaker 2: Rican and half Black American and there's anti blackness in
Speaker 2: the LATINX community. And yeah, these things are so connected
Speaker 2: or that you might have like whether you're interested in
Speaker 2: rights as a Black American, but you're not interested in
Speaker 2: rights of the trans community. But there's so many people
Speaker 2: who are black and trends like all of these things
Speaker 2: like they connect together. And I don't think that you
Speaker 2: can be you know, pro black and anti trends like
Speaker 2: these are not things. You know, they go for me
Speaker 2: hand in hand as well.
Speaker 1: But you know, we've got how many men and how
Speaker 1: many of these different cultures where misogyny, you know, is
Speaker 1: the common threat totally. Yeah, there's that too.
Speaker 3: And it's like, wow, well I always have said, you know,
Speaker 3: homophobia and transphobia, it's all rooted in misogyny because we
Speaker 3: don't raise our boys to become men, we raise them
Speaker 3: to not become women.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: Wow, So anything feminine is considered like wrong, bad, stop that,
Speaker 3: you know. So if we don't honor and revere women,
Speaker 3: everyone's loss really is what it comes down to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I've never thought about it that way. It's
Speaker 2: interesting it's like very generally yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know the femininity from the masculine, like,
Speaker 1: why would you do that? That's not okay, that's scary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a thread. It is a thread.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately it connects many communities as the misogony.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know that's that's the other part of
Speaker 1: this because you know, young girls right now, and I
Speaker 1: mean all of them, I mean young trans girls who
Speaker 1: are not yet out or don't feel safe, and certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, young girls of every stripe have to be
Speaker 1: looking at this current political climate and say do I matter?
Speaker 1: You know, and say will I matter as this, you
Speaker 1: know continues, And why isn't my body my own? Like
Speaker 1: my grandmother fought this fight.
Speaker 2: I know, it's hard for me to like wrap my
Speaker 2: head around just just even what happened with the overturning
Speaker 2: of row and how quickly, like in the span of
Speaker 2: fifty years, it feels like we could be reeling backward. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I definitely was thinking a lot about that in writing
Speaker 2: this book. Yeah. There's lots of really great like pictures
Speaker 2: too that learn put in of like protest signs that
Speaker 2: young girls in the book have a feeling that just
Speaker 2: like sending a message that your voice matter is starting now,
Speaker 2: you know. So I do love that this book up
Speaker 2: and that you can get involved in these in a
Speaker 2: step forward to repair these books.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as for now, never again, we are not
Speaker 1: going back. Nope, that's my god his favorites.
Speaker 2: Fred I think she loves to say no, which is great,
Speaker 2: she's a queen of no. But yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: I love when she reads it too, because it's like,
Speaker 2: it's just so nice to be able to empower a
Speaker 2: young girl to say no. It feels like such a
Speaker 2: culture of like, you know, pleasing others. I feel like
Speaker 2: it's how a lot of girls are raised.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, yeah that I live for a generation
Speaker 4: of young girls coming up who know who freed to Collo,
Speaker 4: Angela Davis, Greta Thunbird, Marsha P.
Speaker 3: Johnson are like. I love that, you know that's going
Speaker 3: to be in their heads. I love that. Oh yes,
Speaker 3: I'll be scared that little girl can't tell her not that.
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the you know, they're already out there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how old you are. I'm
Speaker 1: not asking that question, but you know, my my oldest
Speaker 1: child is thirty six. And I noticed from his generation forward,
Speaker 1: a very different mindset of inclusivity and just you know,
Speaker 1: things like gender or race not being a big deal,
Speaker 1: just like tell me who you are so I can
Speaker 1: so we can understand one another and respect one another.
Speaker 1: And which makes this difficult for me to swallow. You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't cry this time, you know, this election. I
Speaker 1: didn't because you know, in twenty sixteen, we owned a
Speaker 1: bar together and our friend Tys was there as we
Speaker 1: were watching the returns. And you know, t is a Muslim, black,
Speaker 1: lesbian woman with five children, right, and I started to
Speaker 1: cry because I couldn't believe, you know, and she, you know,
Speaker 1: she took me into this great, big hug and she said, oh, honey,
Speaker 1: your people still surprise you. And I couldn't forget that
Speaker 1: this time because I'm like, no, I'm not surprised now,
Speaker 1: I'm certainly disappointed. Yeah, you know, because last time, all
Speaker 1: of the warnings were dead on, and we watched all
Speaker 1: of it happen. Yeah, how could we see all of
Speaker 1: that and say, you know, more of that looks like yeah, good, good,
Speaker 1: let's do that.
Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, what what a powerful way to put
Speaker 2: it to But yeah, that lack of surprise, I have
Speaker 2: to constantly trying to balance both not feeling that surprise,
Speaker 2: like being able to anticipate that that this sort of
Speaker 2: thing can unfold, but also not feeling numb. I feel
Speaker 2: like we may challenge now is like really pushing against
Speaker 2: that like that, yeah, that kind of instinct to just
Speaker 2: be like nothing matters, like this is all so rotten
Speaker 2: that I just can't move forward, just like resisting that
Speaker 2: feeling all the time and being like this isn't normal,
Speaker 2: this isn't right. There's still so much room that we
Speaker 2: can go. There's still so much I have to constantly
Speaker 2: kind of be negotiating with myself like that, Like it
Speaker 2: feels so it feels so irresistible sometimes to just be
Speaker 2: like I just can't, like I can't do it. I
Speaker 2: can't engage anymore, Like you know that's holding a numbness,
Speaker 2: but yeah, but you have to. There's just can't do that.
Speaker 2: We can't, you know, we have to constantly engage in
Speaker 2: these I think that's what the story of women's history
Speaker 2: has helped me do too. Is fine that there are
Speaker 2: folks in times like that, that the nature of history
Speaker 2: is cyclical, and that there's so much room for progress
Speaker 2: and you have to just keep fighting forward.
Speaker 1: Basically, you know two things. One of the ways that
Speaker 1: I've spoken to my community after saying I'm not going anywhere, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to keep doing everything that I
Speaker 1: do and opening my mouth, and that's just going to continue.
Speaker 1: This is an important time to build community. This is
Speaker 1: an important time for all of us to see one another,
Speaker 1: everyone who has a place in being marginalized in this election.
Speaker 1: Really we need to understand our common fight and recognize
Speaker 1: our enemies as well. Stop looking at each other so
Speaker 1: often and look to the folks who really are acting
Speaker 1: not in our interest. And the second, you know, concept
Speaker 1: I've been I've been rolling around. I've been working on
Speaker 1: an essay, but it's just not I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: not together yet. Is for a while I've been saying,
Speaker 1: you know, we're in the last throws of you know,
Speaker 1: that white nationalism, that white ideal, that that place where
Speaker 1: there is a lot of fear, you know, there is
Speaker 1: a lot of we can't embrace diversity and all the
Speaker 1: pushback on DEI and all that. And it kind of
Speaker 1: makes sense to me in some way that it would
Speaker 1: be loud, aggressive and ridiculous before it gets better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like we have to go all the way, so we
Speaker 1: have to take the absurd to the nth degree preserve
Speaker 1: something that only worked for some of us.
Speaker 2: Ever, Yeah, darkest before at the dawn, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I think so like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm telling my I've been telling myself
Speaker 2: that too. I'm like, the reason it feels so amplified
Speaker 2: and so violent right now is because we're in these
Speaker 2: last vestiges of empire and the way that we've had it.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's the reason, you know that that is sort
Speaker 2: of coalescing in the way that it is, is that
Speaker 2: that real change is on the brink around the horizon.
Speaker 1: I hope. So I have to believe that. I have
Speaker 1: to believe it's possible. Yeah, you know, to get up
Speaker 1: every day, like I'm not going to give up hope.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, I'm not going to cry
Speaker 1: not about this because again not a surprise, really a
Speaker 1: huge disappointment. I mean, I was ready, so ready for
Speaker 1: President Harris, and I thought.
Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, maybe I did too.
Speaker 1: The alternative was so ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it feels even more ridiculous in a
Speaker 2: way because, like you're saying, we've had example, like, we
Speaker 2: know how it went, so you think like we wouldn't
Speaker 2: make that choice again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, I don't understand the
Speaker 3: appeal to people that work for a living, you know
Speaker 3: what I'm saying a group of people.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: But I always I keep holding on to There's this
Speaker 3: one line from the movie The Never Ending Story that
Speaker 3: I constantly tried out. It's got a hurt before it
Speaker 3: can heal, you know, and I keep I think about that.
Speaker 3: I hold on to that. It's like where there's there's
Speaker 3: two sides to the coin, and we're on this, but
Speaker 3: you know that coin's go and flip.
Speaker 2: It's going to.
Speaker 1: Flip, right, And you know, this takes a wonderful look
Speaker 1: back at women who have certainly changed history and left
Speaker 1: and Mark and said and kind of to me felt like,
Speaker 1: so how dare you give up? You know, because at
Speaker 1: these points in history, you know, as we look back,
Speaker 1: some of these lives were so much more difficult. They
Speaker 1: didn't have the Internet, they didn't have the organizing capacity
Speaker 1: that we have, they didn't have, you know, the tools
Speaker 1: we have to better understand each other, which is another
Speaker 1: reason why it's crazy to me that we're even you know,
Speaker 1: going towards this inauguration. But that said, it's never been
Speaker 1: easier to be educated, it's never been easier to know things.
Speaker 2: That's that's so true. It's at your fingertips, really right.
Speaker 1: And I think that that great equalizing also comes with
Speaker 1: this backlash of oh my god, if they're all smart,
Speaker 1: we can't keep doing this.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's why they're going there, you know, eliminating
Speaker 3: fact checking and eliminating the hateful content policies because you know,
Speaker 3: they're getting too too close. They're starting to talk to
Speaker 3: each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we know too much. I feel that, And you're right.
Speaker 2: I think there's so many women in this book who
Speaker 2: not in their lifetimes were able to participate in the
Speaker 2: change that they made. You know, that part they maybe
Speaker 2: they weren't compensated for their work. Fairly, they weren't. Their
Speaker 2: legacy wasn't known to them until after they passed. But
Speaker 2: it's a good as unfortunate as that is, it's a
Speaker 2: good reminder that, you know, the arc of justice is long,
Speaker 2: and that the impact that you have now might not
Speaker 2: be instant like we're so used to that kind of
Speaker 2: instant gratification, instant results but that it has to be
Speaker 2: sustainable and that we're in it for the long pole.
Speaker 2: So even though it feels really dark in this one moment,
Speaker 2: that there's still like just so much space ahead to
Speaker 2: create change in difference.
Speaker 1: And that is something I think we don't I don't
Speaker 1: know think about enough. Is that idea of you know,
Speaker 1: planting the trees. We won't sit in the shade of
Speaker 1: you know, planting the theos future trees, the future ideas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that is true. That's so much a part
Speaker 1: of the legacy of some many of these folks who
Speaker 1: never got to see the impact of their work, right,
Speaker 1: you know, Sylvia and Marcia certainly didn't get their flowers
Speaker 1: until they were both gone.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Really at all, we still don't know how we lost Marcia,
Speaker 1: you know, some things remained.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you included title nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that it was the learning process for me too.
Speaker 2: I didn't know the lawmakers like my name that put
Speaker 2: that into motion, and so I knew I wanted the
Speaker 2: title nine because it felt really foundational to women's history.
Speaker 2: But I learned a lot in research that went to
Speaker 2: the Edith Green and Patsy Mink and their involvement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah we're pretending to give us damn
Speaker 1: about what women's sports.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, it wasn't there just some recent was
Speaker 2: it something was legislated against trans women in sports? This week?
Speaker 2: Was it our last?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Congress is actually trying to make that a federal law.
Speaker 1: And again, what happened to state's rights? Gentlemen?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: I loved that Zora Neil Hurston was mentioned under Z. Right,
Speaker 1: but Z it's for zeal on the way history.
Speaker 2: But Z is a hard letter. When you're writing an
Speaker 2: ABC book, Z and X they feel like are the
Speaker 2: the real challenges.
Speaker 3: But yeah, ZA that X marks the spot which is
Speaker 3: the perfect place for Harriet Tubman.
Speaker 2: A couple of women in this book appear in both
Speaker 2: ABC's of Black History, and that's like the intersectionalit and
Speaker 2: then could probably also appear in ABC's of Queer History.
Speaker 2: They're just people that might fit into lots of these stories.
Speaker 3: But Harriet Tubmans, Well, that's what I was thinking when
Speaker 3: I was reading this book and seeing how inclusive and
Speaker 3: intersectional it is, and then realizing that there's also you know,
Speaker 3: a Black history and queer history, Like there's no way
Speaker 3: that there's not overlap along the three books.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there definitely is. Shirley Chisholm. I think she's
Speaker 2: in Black History also Maya Angelou. I can't think of
Speaker 2: all of SEMA's pages, but I'm sure if Sema were here,
Speaker 2: she could give more insight that.
Speaker 1: It's almost like.
Speaker 3: Black history and women's history and queer history is.
Speaker 1: Just American history, right, huh?
Speaker 3: Is act crazy?
Speaker 1: And that you know, that's that's the issue. That's one
Speaker 1: of the core issues here is to really understand it,
Speaker 1: we do have to look at the different perspectives and
Speaker 1: the people not just that we're the victors, but the
Speaker 1: ones who were impacted, you know, the free labor that
Speaker 1: you know, the who were tortured into building this nation
Speaker 1: and not by choice, Like, how do we not tell
Speaker 1: that as a part of our story.
Speaker 2: I know, it's really remarkable to me. Even I also
Speaker 2: tried to be really thoughtful about including indigenous women in
Speaker 2: this collection. Is well, it's you know, it's I think
Speaker 2: we have this impulse too. I've heard a lot of
Speaker 2: people talk about giving you know, the abcs of women's
Speaker 2: history to young girls in their life, that it got
Speaker 2: any anybody's hands because of what we're talking about these
Speaker 2: histories aren't siloed like we experience the results of these
Speaker 2: labors for all of us, for every single person, And
Speaker 2: they're also.
Speaker 1: Well, when I want this in the hands of young.
Speaker 3: Boys, thank you. I was just getting ready to say.
Speaker 1: That's where I want this, Yes, yeah, and that that
Speaker 1: really is the point, you know, I hate that things
Speaker 1: kind of wind up in silos, right, Yeah, Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is a great book for girls. Now, this is a
Speaker 1: great book for all kids exactly. Yeah. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I yearned for that day when we pick something up
Speaker 1: and read it because it doesn't necessarily pertain to us,
Speaker 1: but it's another perspective. That's what educational supposed to be,
Speaker 1: wasn't it right?
Speaker 2: No, I love that, It's just it's yeah, it feels
Speaker 2: against a lot of the way that we're practiced to
Speaker 2: consume things and engage in things. But yeah, that would
Speaker 2: be amazing.
Speaker 3: Well, just it being you know, having the element of
Speaker 3: honesty in the storytelling this book, you know, sets it apart,
Speaker 3: because you know, we're at a point now where we're
Speaker 3: either just straight up not teaching things or changing certain elements,
Speaker 3: which unravels the whole story. Yeah, and you know, I
Speaker 3: think about the the West African symbol of Sankofa, which
Speaker 3: has the spirals, because it's like going backward. To go forward,
Speaker 3: you have to know where you've been to know where
Speaker 3: you're at, to know where you're going. So if you
Speaker 3: take any of these blocks out, like how was the
Speaker 3: wall supposed to stand?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think of exactly. We
Speaker 2: live in a world where not only are you not
Speaker 2: able to talk about certain histories, but you can't even
Speaker 2: say certain words like like you know, classrooms were whole
Speaker 2: just words and like yeah, oh.
Speaker 3: When they started trying to say instead of slaves, immigrants, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was fun.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I thought I knew what words meant.
Speaker 2: Right, what is happening? I know?
Speaker 1: Right? But you know, I was just thinking about you
Speaker 1: the way you have said. The problem is that we've
Speaker 1: had photography for quite a while now, and so I'm
Speaker 1: sorry your grandma was, you know, yelling at Ruby Bridges
Speaker 1: and we got it on film. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we erase everything, like you know, like do better exactly.
Speaker 3: And Ruby Bridges is still alive, which means Grandma is too.
Speaker 1: Well, no, Grandma might not be, but Ruby Bridges certainly is.
Speaker 1: But you know those pictures are out there, that's captured
Speaker 1: and I know, what did you do? This nonsense will
Speaker 1: be captured for history as well.
Speaker 2: That's right. I hope that that's a powerful motivator for
Speaker 2: some but yeah, absolutely. But there was just a famous
Speaker 2: I don't remember somebody who was in one of these photos.
Speaker 2: I can't like, maybe he was in sports, but Jerry, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know a sports person. He was like captured
Speaker 2: as one of the vitriolic students who was opposing integration
Speaker 2: at a school. They were like that, that's him. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think if you were on the other side of that,
Speaker 2: you might be really interested in shutting down discourse in history.
Speaker 1: R yeah, right, But this book contributes to the opposite
Speaker 1: of that, indeed, which is what I love. Can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit rio about your journey as a
Speaker 1: writer as a poet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in Utah and I saw that.
Speaker 2: It's so weird. My mom's family, they're Black American and
Speaker 2: they came to Utah to reconstruction, so they were sleeved
Speaker 2: in Louisiana and then they've been in Utah for all
Speaker 2: these generations. And not Mormon, not LDS, which is like
Speaker 2: a really bizarre place to grow up. But I became
Speaker 2: really interested in poetry at a young age. I think
Speaker 2: maybe as a result of like feeling completely out of place.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of just like searching for ways
Speaker 2: to understand my own feelings. And yeah, and then I
Speaker 2: studied poetry. I went to n y U. I have
Speaker 2: an mfaan poetry, and it's just been a big part
Speaker 2: of my life, probably since the third grade. And then
Speaker 2: I worked. I worked in publishing, and I worked at
Speaker 2: the Schamberg Center for Research in Black Culture. At the time,
Speaker 2: I wrote the ABCS of Black History. So that's part
Speaker 2: of the new Public Library here. I mean, you guys,
Speaker 2: you're a new journey, so you all know. But yeah,
Speaker 2: So it was working there and I was surrounded by
Speaker 2: the archive there, which is incredible, and I was learning
Speaker 2: things that I felt like were with help for me
Speaker 2: as a grown ass woman, you know, just not having
Speaker 2: known like so much. And a friend of mine, who
Speaker 2: was a children's book editor or a former colleague, reached
Speaker 2: out and said, have you ever thought about writing poetry
Speaker 2: for children? And at the time, I was pregnant with
Speaker 2: my daughter, and it just felt like a lot of
Speaker 2: things just kind of aligned in a way that made
Speaker 2: sense to me, So I was able to draw in
Speaker 2: the archive at the Schomberg to write the ABC's of
Speaker 2: Black History. That's the first time I wrote poetry for
Speaker 2: young people, and then since I've written a few children
Speaker 2: picture books for young people, but I still published it
Speaker 2: my poetry collection with Penguin a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: It was called Golden Acts. It's for adults. It's also
Speaker 2: dealing with a lot of history and family history archive.
Speaker 2: They're really separate kinds of writing, but I get a
Speaker 2: lot of joy out of writing for young readers. It's
Speaker 2: like a break sometimes in what feels like really tough
Speaker 2: work to write about memoir and stuff like that through
Speaker 2: poetry can be really emotional, challenging, and so I think
Speaker 2: writing for young people is like my respite from the
Speaker 2: other kinds of work that I'm doing. But yeah, that's
Speaker 2: kind of how I entered into the picture book landscape.
Speaker 2: But history and nonfiction have always been a really big
Speaker 2: part of the work that I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I imagine. Yeah, like writing memoirs, you're
Speaker 3: reaching back to the past, but when you're writing these
Speaker 3: children's books, it's like you're feeding the future.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like it's much more hopeful
Speaker 2: and fun. And also when you write for children, you
Speaker 2: have to kind of get down, like distill down to
Speaker 2: the truth in a way that I know it just
Speaker 2: feels really like good work.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I noticed that in this book. How like
Speaker 3: you said, distilled down to the truth. You know, it's
Speaker 3: like you give, you give the facts, and you give
Speaker 3: enough that you know you you understand the point being made,
Speaker 3: but you still have that kernel of I want to
Speaker 3: know more, yeah, which is ideal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And you have to say it plainly too.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes as writers, like we can get caught
Speaker 2: up in like the flourishing of language and the lyric
Speaker 2: and there's a little bit of that in writing for
Speaker 2: children too, But I like having to say it like
Speaker 2: really plainly without all that excess, you know.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Well, Like a friend of ours, her daughter interviewed Martha
Speaker 3: for a school project and hearing Martha tell her story
Speaker 3: to this ten year old girl, and I'd heard these
Speaker 3: stories before, but the way that she again distilled down
Speaker 3: to like the salient points for a kid was was
Speaker 3: it was beautiful to see and it was you know,
Speaker 3: that's how you gotta do it. Don't give more that
Speaker 3: we mire ourselves down in language, we talk around our points,
Speaker 3: you know, we don't tend to We try to make
Speaker 3: ourselves look as good as possible by the end of
Speaker 3: the story. You know, when if you get to the
Speaker 3: truth of it, sometimes you don't look as great as
Speaker 3: you like. But you know, we now know the true
Speaker 3: story and you have the un of telling your truth.
Speaker 3: And that's what kids need. They don't need the burden
Speaker 3: of excess.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it resonates more with them too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because kids think on a whole different level, right,
Speaker 1: with less style and less nonsense. And you know, so
Speaker 1: you're doing something if you connect with children or yeah,
Speaker 1: because they smell bullshit. They just do and will tell
Speaker 1: you that it stinks. And they also know when they're
Speaker 1: being seen and listen to and that they matter. That's
Speaker 1: so important, and you know that's I love this. I
Speaker 1: love that you're a part of this. You know, we
Speaker 1: we've talked often about it's not always how we get
Speaker 1: knocked down, but the creative and amazing ways we respond.
Speaker 1: And there are so many stories, right, so many stories
Speaker 1: of people just choosing a brilliant response that did something
Speaker 1: like the I'm thinking of the young man in Florida,
Speaker 1: oh who was a gay man. He was the valedictorian,
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't let him say the word gay. So
Speaker 1: he talked about what it was like to go to
Speaker 1: school there with curly hair, and you know that was
Speaker 1: the theme. He everyone knew what he was talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he.
Speaker 1: Wound up, he delivered it. It became national news and
Speaker 1: then he actually delivered the speech he would have delivered
Speaker 1: in front of the entire federal Department of Education. So
Speaker 1: it was really something. So now that's part of the
Speaker 1: you know, like the official record.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And it was all in a response to trying to
Speaker 1: you know, dude has a brilliant story about you know,
Speaker 1: finding himself and finding his voice and they wouldn't let
Speaker 1: him tell it in this new culture in Florida. And
Speaker 1: he found a way to do it, and he found
Speaker 1: he found a way to make them look ridiculous, which
Speaker 1: we're very good at. You know, we've had to be
Speaker 1: we've had to be really really creative. And you know,
Speaker 1: you start with two words that I think are very important.
Speaker 1: And Lois Moses is a friend temple professor, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: who puts these two words together, you said, as artists
Speaker 1: and activists, we earned our seat at the table. And
Speaker 1: Lois taught me the word artivist and I stole it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we use that word in both of our bios.
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to give you that word as well,
Speaker 1: because you embody what an artivist is.
Speaker 2: Oh that's such a great word, am I God?
Speaker 1: Yeah, someone who uses their talent for good instead of evil.
Speaker 1: But you know, understands art because it does take all
Speaker 1: of us, and we do, you know, activism and art
Speaker 1: in different ways, you know, and it's all valid. And
Speaker 1: the more we can see one another and respect one another,
Speaker 1: the more we can come together right where we have
Speaker 1: common ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the creatives are are always where the hope
Speaker 3: comes from.
Speaker 1: I think absolutely. I do too, Oh absolutely, when when
Speaker 1: you don't even know what to say, and you know,
Speaker 1: that's the other thing I keep telling people is we
Speaker 1: don't know right yet. But let's do our best to
Speaker 1: be prepared, I know, and stand together and let's you know,
Speaker 1: celebrate one another and you know, take care of ourselves
Speaker 1: as best we can and use tools like this to
Speaker 1: encourage one another to say this exists in the world, right,
Speaker 1: This came out in the same year. Mm, it also
Speaker 1: has happened. How about that?
Speaker 2: Do you guys want to do you want to know,
Speaker 2: like a sad little publishing fact about this book wasn't sad,
Speaker 2: but I mean the timing of it. So, you know,
Speaker 2: Women's History Month is in March, but we're talking about
Speaker 2: this in January, which is also such a treat to
Speaker 2: be able to talk outside of a heritage month about us, right,
Speaker 2: But they moved the pub date of this book up
Speaker 2: because they were hoping that Kamala Harris would be inaugurated
Speaker 2: next week and that this book would be coming out,
Speaker 2: you know, on the heels of our having a first
Speaker 2: woman president. And so I feel like, you know, even
Speaker 2: in talking about this book, you know the release date
Speaker 2: that sort of like is in the back of my
Speaker 2: mind and all the conversations. It's just that that we
Speaker 2: had had this like big dream for women to history
Speaker 2: and for the subject here for young kids, and that
Speaker 2: didn't quite get there this time around. But I feel
Speaker 2: like it's made this feel like even more important as
Speaker 2: an effort in the way that we're talking about it. Absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 2: But just just to kind of what you were saying
Speaker 2: about trying to do that sort of activist work through
Speaker 2: our art in the ways that we can show up.
Speaker 1: So you know, you have June Jordan's quote right at
Speaker 1: the right up front. We are the ones we have
Speaker 1: been waiting for. And I hear you because you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about different things, you know, that are happening
Speaker 1: in my career and my life and just speaking more
Speaker 1: and being more of a voice. Yeah, and I still
Speaker 1: feel like that's happening. But boy did that change the
Speaker 1: direction of what's going to be, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking like we're full steam ahead, and it turns
Speaker 1: out we have so much more work to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean we stop doing it. So I
Speaker 1: think this is even more right on time.
Speaker 3: Well, I was just thinking like the last time we
Speaker 3: were here in twenty sixteen, I was still teaching dance
Speaker 3: to teenagers, and so I had class the day after
Speaker 3: the election, and I walk into the studio and all
Speaker 3: the girls they're just sunken, like there's these usual bright
Speaker 3: lights are just not there. And so I took everyone
Speaker 3: in the studio and I asked the stupid question. I
Speaker 3: was like, what's wrong? And they were like the election,
Speaker 3: and so I set everyone down and I, you know,
Speaker 3: talk to them about how no matter what is going
Speaker 3: on around you, you know what is right, you know
Speaker 3: what is true, you know what is real. Hold on
Speaker 3: to that. And I was thinking, how you know this
Speaker 3: go round not teaching kids, and I know that that
Speaker 3: message is needed, but we have this book we can
Speaker 3: just put in kids' hands. That's that response, so right
Speaker 3: on time, Thank you. It wasn't the timing that we wanted,
Speaker 3: it was the timing that we needed.
Speaker 1: Apparently. Yeah, yeah, because we're about to see what repeats.
Speaker 1: I mean in part maybe we can count on some
Speaker 1: of the ineptitude we saw in that first four years
Speaker 1: to just continue and not a lot will get done
Speaker 1: because he still thinks he's on television and he's going
Speaker 1: to fire everyone every six or eight weeks. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening, but I do know. I
Speaker 1: do know that this is important. It exists now, it's
Speaker 1: beautifully illustrated, it's well written, and it's one more tool,
Speaker 1: you know, that we can give to young people and
Speaker 1: say we're still paying attention. You know, we still care
Speaker 1: about your future. You still matter, because that is one
Speaker 1: of my that's one of the things that really hits me.
Speaker 1: And maybe because it took me so long to find
Speaker 1: my own voice, that young people hear so much of
Speaker 1: this nonsense and this cacophony and absorb it, you know,
Speaker 1: and say, how can I really have a voice? How
Speaker 1: can I really be important? How can I matter? And
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, so much of the important
Speaker 1: work right now is saying you do you do more
Speaker 1: than ever?
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, because you know, I loved the Why.
Speaker 2: I'm going to read that one.
Speaker 1: Because I thought this is great. I love the way
Speaker 1: it points, but it applies to you as well, any reader. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: why is for you, Yes, you and all your glory.
Speaker 1: You are uniquely part of the story. There's a future
Speaker 1: ahead and a path to claim and most important of all,
Speaker 1: a place for your name. That's what a beautiful, beautiful thought.
Speaker 1: And you know, thank you for writing what you do.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see the next work.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, thank you, Martha. I love their readings.
Speaker 2: I feel like I went your boys send the audio books.
Speaker 1: Well you just let me know, he said, none but
Speaker 1: a word. It's just so beautifully done. And again I
Speaker 1: hear that story we spent a week with author Niko Lang,
Speaker 1: who is you know, one of our most prominent LGBT
Speaker 1: journalists right now, who wrote the book American Teenager, and
Speaker 1: that came out in early October. Again, it was meant
Speaker 1: to be a warm you know, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: really intimate look inside the lives of eight right different
Speaker 1: trans teenagers across the country, many of them in Red States.
Speaker 1: It was meant to be a warning, but it's still
Speaker 1: part of the canon and we still continue. Nica's still touring,
Speaker 1: you know, we spend a week between New Jersey and Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: but they are really touring the country, just trying to
Speaker 1: get the book out and trying to make sure that
Speaker 1: books understand this. This work matters. Yeah, you know, it matters.
Speaker 1: It does matter, and so does this very much. I
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 2: I love it, and so does this exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2: I feel like having these conversations and these discourses are
Speaker 2: also something that really matters and that people can connect
Speaker 2: to and here different perspectives. So thank you so much
Speaker 2: for your work.
Speaker 1: Too, Absolutely thank you. This book. The new book is
Speaker 1: The ABC's of Women's History by Ria Cortes, illustrated by
Speaker 1: or In summer. Yeah, very well worth the read. What
Speaker 1: a great gift for any young person in your life.
Speaker 1: And you are at Rio Cortes dot com. Correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we visited the website, we would be able
Speaker 3: to purchase the book there you can.
Speaker 2: Or you could go to your local indie bookstore, your
Speaker 2: community bookshop. But yes, you can also find out a
Speaker 2: little bit more about different publishing projects.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I promise you I'm going to be at
Speaker 1: our indie bookstore with the book in hand, making sure
Speaker 1: that the owner knows that this exists, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to say if it's not there, it'll be there soon.
Speaker 3: I know that's right, right, Because we can be downright
Speaker 3: pushy when we want.
Speaker 1: To be obnoxious. I just want to thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking this time. The work is important, it matters,
Speaker 1: It matters more than it ever has and I just
Speaker 1: thank you for doing it.
Speaker 2: No, thank you so much for having me. Really a
Speaker 2: pleasure talking with you both you.
Speaker 1: As well, indeed you have been listening to Full Circle
Speaker 1: the podcast. I am Martha Madrigal and.
Speaker 3: I am Charles Tyson Jr.
Speaker 1: And we just want to a special thank you again
Speaker 1: to Real Cortes for being so generous with your time
Speaker 1: about this important book.
Speaker 3: Thank you bye everyone. Full Circle is a Never Scured
Speaker 3: Productions podcast hosted by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal,
Speaker 3: produced and edited by Never Scurd Executive Produced by Charles
Speaker 3: Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal. Our theme in music is
Speaker 3: by The jingle Berries. All names, pictures, music, audio, and
Speaker 3: video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of their
Speaker 3: respective copyright holders.