WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:18.519 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:22.839 Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special edition of Full Circle 3 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:28.960 the podcast. With us today is Rio Cortes, a Harlem 4 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.399 based writer whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, 5 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:35.759 The Atlantic, The Miami Rail, and many other publications. She 6 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.119 is also the author of the New York Times best 7 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.799 selling title The ABC's of Black History and The River 8 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:46.119 Is My Ocean, as well as the adult poetry collection Goldennacks, 9 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:49.920 which was long listed for a National Book Award. We're 10 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:53.759 here to talk about The ABC's of Women's History, a 11 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:58.200 book fresh out in twenty twenty five. Rio Courtes, Welcome 12 00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:59.679 to the Full Circle Table. 13 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.200 Thank you, it's o good to be here. Thanks for 14 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:03.920 having me absolutely. 15 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.920 First of all, I just want to say that when 16 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:10.799 I read the book, I don't usually say the word 17 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:14.000 wonderful like that. That's just not a word that naturally 18 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:16.200 comes out of my mouth. But at least five times 19 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.120 on going through like this is wonderful. 20 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:22.120 That makes me so happy. 21 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.760 So I'm going to assume I just want to go 22 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:27.439 backward a little bit. So in December of twenty twenty, 23 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:31.159 you put out The ABC's of Black History. Yes, Yeah, 24 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:36.159 became a bestseller. I love the format. 25 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:40.719 Yeah, telling history like through the alphabet. I learned in 26 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:43.359 the writing that there's like you probably you probably already 27 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:47.280 know this, but aba ab sidarian, it's a whole word 28 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.519 about using the alphabet to you know, as the structure 29 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:52.040 of a book. 30 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:57.400 So I love it, Okay, I do. I know that. 31 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.519 There is also the ABC's of Queer History, which didn't write, 32 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:01.200 but a friend did. 33 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:07.239 Yes, mean we met mutually through the publisher, and she's 34 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.560 an amazing writer and she's also a medical doctor. 35 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.120 I saw that. I saw that. Now I want the 36 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:18.919 other two books, but the ABC's of Women's History, I can't. 37 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.280 It's so timely. Really, this is so timely. Yeah, you know, 38 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:28.080 I work a lot with the trans community. Everyone is 39 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.400 kind of reeling and not knowing what's going to happen 40 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:32.560 next and what are they going to try to do 41 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.960 on a federal level. And you know, our states, right's 42 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.719 going to hold because you know, we are in New 43 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.080 Jersey and New York right where right now things are 44 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.080 okay for us, but could change. 45 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:48.560 Yeah, and depending on where you live, which is what 46 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:53.879 we don't want right exactly federal productions to really function 47 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.919 so that if you're not a completely different reality if 48 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.080 you live in New York, or if you live in 49 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.360 Mississippi or Kansas or you know, so things. 50 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:08.080 Are already bad and getting worse for a lot of folks. Yeah, 51 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:10.719 and at a time when books are being either banned 52 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.400 or burned or both, where do I love this one? 53 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.240 Exactly? I was like, ooh, this this book is going 54 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:20.879 to be called woke, all left, right, and sideway. 55 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:24.639 Yes, I mean that's perfect. I assume you're prepared for that, right. 56 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:27.439 I Actually, I'm so glad that we're talking. This is 57 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.479 the first time that we have really been able to 58 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.479 talk about like our political reality alongside this book. Surprisingly, 59 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.840 and it's true like with the ABC's of Black History, 60 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.199 it was it was banned in Miami, Florida. But in 61 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.639 the ABC's were History, we talk a lot about shadow banning, 62 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:48.560 where even if people aren't banning the book, that merchandisers 63 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.400 and retailers aren't taking a big position on the book 64 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:53.960 because they don't want to deal with their customers, and 65 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.680 so it's like a shadow like it's quietly banned in 66 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:59.080 a way because they're not putting it out on the shelves, 67 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:00.879 you know, because they don't want to engage in like 68 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.599 volatile discourse with folks who come in the store, and 69 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.719 so I think that's also happening all the time, especially 70 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.840 with queer centered books. But with women's history, I feel, yeah, 71 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.439 basically at there ready because there were certain things that 72 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.439 I think, are you have to that were unavoidable for 73 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.399 me to talk about in the book, like consent, for example, 74 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:26.519 or choice to include trans women in the story of 75 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.959 women's history. All these things that I imagine and I 76 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.600 anticipate that somebody out there is gonna have an issue with. 77 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:37.920 So hasn't happened. I mean, it just came out, So 78 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:41.519 I don't know. But the world is magically a better place. 79 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.600 But there are positions that I felt really strongly about 80 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.160 taking in the book that, yeah, that I feel like 81 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.319 I'm prepared for a little bit of opposition about. 82 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:56.439 Which is sad but a reality right now exactly of 83 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.439 the current discourse, which is upside down and insane. I mean, 84 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.560 nineteen eighty four was supposed to be a warning, not 85 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.800 a house you got, not a guidebook, right, but you 86 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.519 did touch on those things. And as I read through 87 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.360 the book, you talk about so many powerful women through history. 88 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:18.839 It wasn't until I got until the very end when 89 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:21.240 I realized there was a section on you know, terms 90 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:25.680 and figures. But as I went through and you mentioned 91 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:32.240 these names, I thought, what a great primer, you know 92 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:37.680 for a parent, right to teach, more right to say, 93 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.839 just to put a spark kind of on every page, 94 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:43.920 like who are these women? When did they live, what 95 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:49.279 did they do? And you provide, you know, a pretty 96 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:53.480 concise piece in the in the back to read about 97 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.360 the women who are mentioned in the book. But I 98 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.800 still think, you know, talk about your what she used 99 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:02.120 to do? 100 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:07.759 Oh yeah, So my I'm biracial. My mother was white, 101 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.120 my father was black, and my mom wanted to make 102 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.720 sure that, you know, I was versed in black history, 103 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.040 so she would bring these We had these black history 104 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:21.600 calendars and each month was a different figure and so 105 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.160 like she made me write like a couple of paragraphs 106 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:29.639 about each person. Maybe you know, so that's why I 107 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.040 know who like sojournal Truth and Benjamin Bannerer and those 108 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.120 you know what I'm saying. And these things are important 109 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:39.879 for parents to make sure that your kids, you know, 110 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:44.199 have more than what they will be fed in school. 111 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.519 Yeah, Oh I love that. I love that ear mom 112 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.879 did that. Yeah, absolutely, And I feel like, thank you 113 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.800 for acknowledging the back matter. Takes a lot of time 114 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.480 to create that as a resource, but I feel like 115 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.399 it's so important because you could go and I really hope, 116 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:59.360 I mean, I don't hope that there are people no 117 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.399 one knows by I love when there are moments where 118 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.680 you encounter a name that you've never heard before and 119 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.480 you're like, oh, let me, actually I don't know who 120 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:09.759 that is, like whether you're with the young person or not, like, 121 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:12.439 let me look at the back and see. I think 122 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.439 those moments are discovery. Is kind of what we're hoping 123 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.279 for when we create a text like this. 124 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.600 Oh yeah, I learned a couple of things. I was like, oh, 125 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:21.279 I didn't know that. 126 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.040 Oh I see it happening. I really do. That's how 127 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:27.399 we learned about Polly Murray. Oh oh, right in the 128 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:32.199 middle of an interview. Because before Rosa Parks and before 129 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:33.680 Claudik Colvin. 130 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:36.360 Yes, was Paully Murray absolutely. 131 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:39.199 A person at the time no one wanted to hold 132 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.360 up as a figure, but you know what a brilliant 133 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.800 human in the course of our history and in the 134 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:47.720 course of civil rights history. 135 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:52.079 That's right, Yeah, yeah, exactly moments like that poly Murray. 136 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:55.279 I learned later about poly Murray in life too, and 137 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:58.319 I feel like that's it's just like it's so helpful 138 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.680 in grounding and inspiring to to find out that folks 139 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.920 were doing this type of work and unacknowledged at the time, 140 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.360 that you thought that you really understood the key players. 141 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.959 Oh yeah, and that, you know, brings me to. 142 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:13.519 How did you. 143 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:19.920 Narrow down the list of women? It's like, Okay, I'm 144 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:24.040 doing a book about notable women, and I'm only going 145 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:25.160 to make the book this long. 146 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:31.120 I know, it's like impossible. As a prompt, it was 147 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.840 like women's history, okay, so like from the beginning of 148 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.480 time like that, Like it was very hard. Well, first 149 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.159 I narrowed it. It's it's mostly American women. There's a 150 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.639 couple of global figures in there, but I think to 151 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.080 do a global women's history would be a different project. 152 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.399 And then I would say it's probably like in the 153 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.960 last one hundred and fifty years. So that helped a 154 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.399 little bit, right, And then after that I started thinking 155 00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:00.360 more by like discipline, you know, like visual artists, people 156 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:05.600 who were in the labor movement, people who maybe you know, 157 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.080 were community organizers, librarians, people who were in the environmental field, 158 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:14.200 people who were in public policy and made change that way. 159 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.200 So then I once I started to kind of have 160 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:21.279 those themes around everything then and my background is in poetry, 161 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.960 so the whole the verse rhymes, and so that also 162 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:25.000 has it. 163 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:27.240 I love that part of how. 164 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.639 You could include everyone, but I did. I woke up 165 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:32.799 like all the time in the writing of this book, 166 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.879 like thinking of women that I needed to include and hadn't. 167 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.200 So it gave me a lot of anxiety. But the 168 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.879 back matter helped too, because then I'm like, all right, 169 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.759 some people who aren't in the verse still are in 170 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.440 the back matter. And then Lauren the illustrator, sometimes if 171 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.080 we couldn't fit it in the verse, she could illustrate 172 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.039 the person age and name them, and so that was 173 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.440 another device we used to get as many figures as 174 00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:58.399 we could in the book. 175 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:03.279 I love how co cohesive the illustration is with the text. 176 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:05.559 Thank you. Yeah, she's great. 177 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:08.919 You know, the story is told, you know, both with 178 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.440 words and in the text of each page. And you know, 179 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:16.159 Maya Angelo is my absolute favorite writer of all time. 180 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.759 I don't I met her once, very briefly and before 181 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.279 I transitioned because I worked at the University of Pennsylvania 182 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.639 and she had come to speak, so I got to 183 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.039 say hello, I got to shake her hand, but I 184 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.159 never I don't know where she would have kind of 185 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.039 stood if we had met and talked much in person today, 186 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.639 But I do know. You know, she's a huge inspiration 187 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.559 because here is a woman who was six feet tall, 188 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:51.000 whose voice was deeper than mine, who was not traditionally 189 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:55.799 pretty by you know, at least American standards, and yet 190 00:10:55.960 --> 00:11:00.639 knew herself yea, as something magical and knew herself as 191 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:01.720 something incredible. 192 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.200 Yeah, yeah, that's so true. 193 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.600 Yeah. Still I rise hangs in my office. You know, 194 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.639 it's my favorite poem. 195 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.879 She's incredible. I love her interviews too. I feel like 196 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:17.519 I always get so much out of like she pays, 197 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:21.200 Like great series with James Baldwin where they were in conversation, Yeah, 198 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.240 and some of my favorite when I love when you 199 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:29.720 hear writers that you love kind of like spinning conversationally 200 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:33.320 and you get more like spontaneous response to things. Yeah. 201 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:36.000 When I first read that they were friends, I said, 202 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.120 of course they were friends, right, of course they knew 203 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:39.720 one another. 204 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:44.399 Yeah, Well, I love that when Nikki Giovanni passed that 205 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.080 footage of the conversation she had with James Baldwin started 206 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.879 making the rounds, and I was like, yes. 207 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.080 Yeah, I really put James baldon with anyone, and I 208 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.799 feel like it brings out like all the best of thoughts. 209 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:58.159 So yeah, yeah, it's going. 210 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:00.000 To be impossible to not have a good conversation. 211 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.799 I don't think that I've ever seen you exactly, like, 212 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:04.720 I'm not engaging a conversation with you. 213 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:07.919 And I have to imagine, you know, having a conversation 214 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:10.639 with James Waldwin had to feel like being strip naked, 215 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.440 like you know, there was just no room for anything 216 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.440 that wasn't authentic. 217 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.039 Right to the point of Blade Bear. 218 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.480 Yeah, because he wasn't parsing words or suffering fools or 219 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.000 pretending to be other than James Baldwin. 220 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:28.240 Pains. 221 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.639 Yeah, and of course the two of them knew each other. 222 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.240 I want to read from one page just to kind 223 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.720 of give a flavor sure of the book. I kind 224 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.279 of picked it randomly. But D is for dreaming out 225 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:46.399 loud and in color, Like the artists whose work helps 226 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.360 us discover, there are new ways of seeing, more than 227 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.000 one way to be. We can imagine a world beyond 228 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:59.759 you and me. Alma Thomas's patterns, Frida Callo's reflections, and 229 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:06.639 Jia O'Keeffe's florals teach beautiful lessons on canvas and photographs. 230 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.159 Sculpted or drawn art is what ensures the artist lives 231 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:18.240 on and challenges each of us to create new dawns. 232 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.279 Yeah, thank you for reading that. 233 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:25.919 There's a little story within each page. It's just it's 234 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.919 beautifully written and so accessible, not just to young people, 235 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.159 and that's I feel like this is another, you know, 236 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.679 layer of the subversion we have to consider is you know, 237 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:43.919 making not letting history die, not letting our stories not 238 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:49.159 be told. And yeah, it has to start there. Like 239 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.000 I used to take my kids to band's band book week, 240 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:53.559 you know what I mean, like at the bookstore or 241 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.440 the library and say pick. 242 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.799 What you like, right exactly. I feel like that's that's 243 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.720 especially now, like so much of our like the way 244 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.759 that we tell history is under attack, and so it's 245 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:11.120 like when you're at warwith facts and information, it feels 246 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.919 like even more important impression to make sure that the 247 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:19.440 record is kept about some of these books. Yeah, absolutely, it's. 248 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:23.960 Very obvious by the list of banned books that they 249 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.679 are very much going by the reading needs leads to knowledge, 250 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.080 knowledge leads to power, So we have to squash that now, Like, 251 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:36.200 that's totally how that reads. And that's another reason why 252 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:42.399 I love how expansive, Like the different types of women 253 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:47.200 from all different fields and backgrounds are covered in this 254 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:51.679 book because to a young girl, to a young person, 255 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.240 you have all these different examples of what kind of 256 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:58.919 girl you want to be, what kind of women you 257 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.240 want to grow up to be. And you know, by 258 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.720 reading this book, you know if I were a little girl, like, 259 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:05.759 I could be anything I. 260 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:06.080 Want to be. 261 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:10.360 Like, I love that, And even it says at the end, 262 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:16.279 like you know, you address the reader and it's it's gorgeous. 263 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.919 Oh thank you. Yeah, that's one of my favorite spreads. 264 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.279 I think it's Why is for you? 265 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:21.600 Why Is for you? 266 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.000 Yeah, it's true, And I love what you said also 267 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.240 about the power of I mean, I think it tells 268 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.399 you a lot when they ban our books and they 269 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.080 ban histories about how powerful it is for us to 270 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.759 understand them. Right, it's like the other side of the coin, 271 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:37.399 like you're. 272 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.639 Saying, I mean, the fact that it makes them that uncomfortable, 273 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:46.600 you know, proves the value of the work exactly and 274 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.120 the importance of the message. I mean, you know, I've 275 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:52.399 talked often about it. I should not have been a 276 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:57.360 full grown adult before I understood Blackwall Street and Oklahoma, right, 277 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.080 you know, that should have been taught right alongside of 278 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:03.440 the rest of it. And the fact that it isn't. 279 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.720 And we're seeing this, you know, dystopian language right now. 280 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.279 But to be fair, so was I. 281 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.480 Yeah, we were both adults like that was not in school, 282 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:17.559 and you went to an all black school and still 283 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.639 didn't learn it when you should have, which is astounding. 284 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:27.320 I mean, say, yeah, Sabe, there's so many histories I 285 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.080 feel like were withheld that would have been really powerful 286 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.159 for me to learn earlier in my life. 287 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:39.240 I love that. You That I is for intersectional intersectionality 288 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:43.000 is why we started this podcast, right in part Well, 289 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:45.679 we realized, you know, we live at this intersection of 290 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:51.000 race and gender and orientation, sure, and the conversations we 291 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.159 have with one another. We thought, you know, this is 292 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:58.120 kind of interesting and not something we could find out there, 293 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.000 so we said, let's do that. Right. 294 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.279 I love that, And. 295 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.919 Really that's what this is. Sometimes it's just I don't 296 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:05.839 know how to process this. Talk to me. 297 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.759 Yeah, you know. 298 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.759 I'm not sure how I feel about this. Help me 299 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.680 understand it from your perspective. And I love that the 300 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.480 two figures you used for intersectionality were Marsha p. Johnson 301 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:20.759 and Sylvia Are there? 302 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.160 Yeah? Yeah, really, it was very important for me to 303 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:25.839 get them in the text. I couldn't get them in 304 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.279 the rhyming verse, but I knew. My note in my 305 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.960 manuscript to Learn was that these were the women I 306 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.839 wanted to include in that spread. And I feel like 307 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.440 she did break job illustrating that page. 308 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.519 I mean, you say, there, we contain multitudes. I mean, 309 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:44.039 you don't need much more. 310 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:49.480 You know, there is a movement right now, and I 311 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:52.119 want to say it's the gender revolution. Is that what 312 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:57.240 they're called, led by Raquel Willis and others, really kind 313 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:02.240 of pulling together women's rights and the right to choose 314 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.880 with you know, trans rights because it's all about bodily autonomy, 315 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:07.440 that's right. 316 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:13.920 Yeah, yeah, I think it also, like I feel like 317 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.160 it's really important for all of us to see our 318 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:20.400 freedom struggles as connected. Yes, you're saying, and so it's 319 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:25.119 it's not like, oh, I mean these civil rights for myself, 320 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.839 but I want to like, but it has nothing to 321 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.519 do with civil rights, for it has everything to do 322 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:32.000 with when they are so connected. And I feel like 323 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.279 we're even more powerful when we think about that as 324 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:40.720 a collective struggle. So but yeah, bodily, absolutely, they're very related. 325 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.480 Because I'm constantly saying it's all of us, are none 326 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.559 of us? That's right, you know, And it's crazy that 327 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.079 that's not the prevalent mindset that it's all the same 328 00:18:54.160 --> 00:19:00.119 struggle just within the lgbt Q. There's like, you know, 329 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.519 the L, the G and the B right now is like, 330 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.519 well we got ours, the tea is over there, and 331 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:10.079 it's like no, because who you think is next, you 332 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.400 are directly next. 333 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.400 Yeah, and there are still some that, yeah, that's struggle 334 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:21.839 with that, and you know too many arguments that you know, 335 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:28.839 race and gender, identity and orientation are not the same, yes, 336 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:34.000 but in so many ways they are. In so many ways, 337 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:38.319 it is the other ring. It is the marginalization. You know, 338 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.359 if we can point to you as someone to hate, 339 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.000 you won't notice while we pick your pockets, which is 340 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:46.680 the game really, I know. 341 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.119 Yeah, and some of us are many things at once, 342 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.680 you know, I have to think about that like in 343 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.880 terms of you know, anti blackness, and I'm half Puerto 344 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.079 Rican and half Black American and there's anti blackness in 345 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.079 the LATINX community. And yeah, these things are so connected 346 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:06.160 or that you might have like whether you're interested in 347 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.000 rights as a Black American, but you're not interested in 348 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.640 rights of the trans community. But there's so many people 349 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.240 who are black and trends like all of these things 350 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.119 like they connect together. And I don't think that you 351 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.559 can be you know, pro black and anti trends like 352 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.759 these are not things. You know, they go for me 353 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.599 hand in hand as well. 354 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.880 But you know, we've got how many men and how 355 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.599 many of these different cultures where misogyny, you know, is 356 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.960 the common threat totally. Yeah, there's that too. 357 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.839 And it's like, wow, well I always have said, you know, 358 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:49.440 homophobia and transphobia, it's all rooted in misogyny because we 359 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.279 don't raise our boys to become men, we raise them 360 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:53.279 to not become women. 361 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:54.599 Mm. 362 00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:00.119 Wow, So anything feminine is considered like wrong, bad, stop that, 363 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.839 you know. So if we don't honor and revere women, 364 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:07.960 everyone's loss really is what it comes down to. 365 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.279 Yeah, no, I've never thought about it that way. It's 366 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.400 interesting it's like very generally yeah. 367 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.759 Yeah, and you know the femininity from the masculine, like, 368 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:24.559 why would you do that? That's not okay, that's scary. Yeah, 369 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.720 it's a thread. It is a thread. 370 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.400 Unfortunately it connects many communities as the misogony. 371 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.480 Yeah, and you know that's that's the other part of 372 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:41.240 this because you know, young girls right now, and I 373 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:43.440 mean all of them, I mean young trans girls who 374 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:47.200 are not yet out or don't feel safe, and certainly, 375 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.680 you know, young girls of every stripe have to be 376 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:58.039 looking at this current political climate and say do I matter? 377 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.839 You know, and say will I matter as this, you 378 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.279 know continues, And why isn't my body my own? Like 379 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:08.079 my grandmother fought this fight. 380 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.319 I know, it's hard for me to like wrap my 381 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.000 head around just just even what happened with the overturning 382 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:19.119 of row and how quickly, like in the span of 383 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:24.480 fifty years, it feels like we could be reeling backward. Yeah. 384 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.079 I definitely was thinking a lot about that in writing 385 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:32.039 this book. Yeah. There's lots of really great like pictures 386 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:34.720 too that learn put in of like protest signs that 387 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.960 young girls in the book have a feeling that just 388 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.680 like sending a message that your voice matter is starting now, 389 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.240 you know. So I do love that this book up 390 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.200 and that you can get involved in these in a 391 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.400 step forward to repair these books. 392 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.279 Yeah, and as for now, never again, we are not 393 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:00.599 going back. Nope, that's my god his favorites. 394 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.119 Fred I think she loves to say no, which is great, 395 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:05.799 she's a queen of no. But yeah, I love that. 396 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.319 I love when she reads it too, because it's like, 397 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.079 it's just so nice to be able to empower a 398 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.559 young girl to say no. It feels like such a 399 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:18.039 culture of like, you know, pleasing others. I feel like 400 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:19.759 it's how a lot of girls are raised. 401 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:25.920