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Speaker 1: Okay, there we go, there we go. All right, Welcome

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to another episode of the Crime Page About It Doesn't podcast.

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Today today we're here with my friend, Professor Emeritus Jim

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moss Seth and plant anatomus and cactus practologist and fucking

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you just do it. Man. You like specializing in cacti,

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but like the nitty gritty stuff, the cell walls, the cells,

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the different types of tissues, the which is very good

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to have this conversation for me now now that I've

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been teaching all this stuff. So, oh Jim, how are

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you doing good? Yeah? Man, So we were just we

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were just started looking at Ariocarpus flowering and beautiful landscape

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that hasn't been tarnished or poached yet on a little

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private conservation property here in West Texas. So anyway, so yeah, man,

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I wanted to, uh, I guess where to start? You know,

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I just taught well this is I guess anyone listening

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to if you the last podcast episode I taught this

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stuff was basically a lecture on there's a brief lecture

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on the different types of tissues epidermal tissue, ground tissue,

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vascuar tissue, and then you know, within ground tissue. You've

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got Prankma, colin kamma, sclare incoma. You're kind of in

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a you know, respectively from softer to hard to harder.

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Sclaring come as the hardest, Colin come as kind of intermediate.

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Priankama is softest. But there's you know, whole definitions that

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go with each of those tissue types. And so I

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suggest listening to that if if this stuff throws you off.

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But I will be trying to you know, intersperse some

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crash course, you know, sentences in between the conversation that

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we have. So let's just start talking. I mean, let's

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just get to it. I guess what I wanted to

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ask you about initially, Well, there's a lot of things,

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but that that tissue in aerocarpus that's so hard that

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I always assumed it just was cutical the waxi layer

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exuded by the epidermist. But it's too thick to be

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cutical does have a really thick cuticle, but that's probably

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epidermis and hypodermis too.

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Speaker 2: You were saying, yes, you almost all the cacti, Well,

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all cacti I have an epidermis on their young body

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where they don't have bark and almost all cact i

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have a several layers of hypodermis blow the epidermis, and

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the hypodermis always have thick walls, so it's always tougher

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than the epidermis. So when you can kind of peel

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a thick layer off of an opuntia or a barrel

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cactus or something like that, you're not getting just the epidermis,

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and you're not getting just the cuticle. You're getting hypodermis.

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You're getting two or three or four layers of hypodermis,

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one layer of epidermis and cutical and wax and stuff

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like that. It's going to be mostly the hypodermis.

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Speaker 1: And but hypodermis is still I mean it's still epidermal tissue.

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Speaker 2: No, it's not.

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Speaker 1: What is it classified as or is it parankamar or

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kala kamar? What would you call it?

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Speaker 2: Epidermis? The epidermis and plants has a really nice developmental definition.

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The the up in the shoot apical marrastem, the outermost

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layer of cells can only divide with cell walls that

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are perpendicular to the to the surface of the marrowstem,

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so that means both new daughter cells are laying in

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the same plane, there's still the outermost layers of cells.

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If if they if an epidermic cell divided in a

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with a wall that's parallel to the surface of the

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of this to the skin of the skin, then you

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have an outer cell and an inner cell. Don't do that,

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so you only divide with that perpendicular wall. So what

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the epidermis of a plant does is it is a

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single layer that grows as a single layer, a sheet

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that just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

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Speaker 1: So you can say still created in the appical marasteme,

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which you know, it's like the appical marastime on like

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a pay odior and aerocarpus is in the center of

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the plant. Yes, that's the only spot where well it's

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not the only spot where new cell growth is occurring,

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because cacti have secondary growth as well. They've got a

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vascular cambium.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you also have the growth of the spines

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and growth of the tubercles and long things like lutenbergia

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or there's long memalarium, lounge amandma and stuff like that.

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But the big deal is that with so with the

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epidermis coming from this one layer of cells in the

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in the marristem. And then and then having having only

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divisions by these perpendicular walls, you're growing as just one

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single sheet. So if you can imagine this being this

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tabletop being covered by a sheet of cells one cell

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layer thick, and every cell can only divide so that

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both daughter cells are now laying in this sheet, the

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sheet just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger,

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but never thicker and thicker and thicker. Okay, So that

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gives us a really good definition of epidermis and cacti.

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So that on the surface of a leaf, those epiderma

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cells have come from that one single layer of the

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shootoptical marrastem. And and so so when we're talking about

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an epidermis and a hypodermis with layers below the epidermis,

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those those layers below the epidermis have not come from

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that one single shoot epical marrastem layer, so they have

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a different developmental origin.

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Speaker 1: They've still come from the shoot apical marius them, but

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from a but.

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Speaker 2: From a deeper layers. So the fact that so a

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really interesting way of thinking about it. Imagine a imagine

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a fertilized egg and plants, So the sperm cells just

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cheesed with eggs. You've got this one single celled zygoat.

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Speaker 1: In animals, you mean in plants too, Okay, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So this single cells zygoat the device and have to

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get two cells divisa, those two divide and have to

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get four cells and then a cells. And very often

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when in plant embryos, when you go from the eight

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cell stage to the sixteen cell stage, you're all the

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cells divide by a curved walls that are parallel to

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the surface of that zygote. And so you get at

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that stage, you now get an outer an outer. So yeah,

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eight cells divided to get eight outer cells and eight

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inner cells. Those eight outer cells are the progenitor for

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all the epidermis. So when you look at a when

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you look at a big old oak tree or a

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pine tree or whatever, and you see the epidermis on

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all the every leaf and every flower and everything, all

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those singles, all those that single layer of cells covering

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all that plant have come from that those outer eight

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cells of the sixteen cells stage plant embryo. So at

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that very early stage, the epidermis is set off as

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being distinct from all the.

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Speaker 1: Rest of the they're just copies of those in exact right, Yeah,

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but it's all I mean, in an applical mirrors them.

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It's all undifferentiated at some point, isn't it. And then

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it later. But when you get leaf primoria and then

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obviously not in cacti.

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Speaker 2: Well no, you do get in you get leaf primoria.

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In in cactus, the leaf primori stop developing while they're

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still very small. So when in perrescae they developed the

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full leaves, right, you know, puncas, they develop in the

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smaller leaves that fall off pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those a little cylindrical things, yes.

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Speaker 2: And then the regular cacti they develop in the leaves

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that are pretty much microscopic by the time they're stopped developing,

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where they still have an epidermis, they have a hypodermis,

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they have an inner inner cells that are photosynthetic, they

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have a xylum they have flown. And there's the strange

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thing but these little tiny microscopic leaves of cacti is

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they're almost pure asylum. It's just it's just this huge

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nodule of xylum with a little bit of green photosynthetic

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parankama on one time on the other side, and a

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layer of epidermis and hypodermis.

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Speaker 1: But and then the spines would be I mean they're

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they're technically not leaves, they're bud scales. Bud scales.

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Speaker 2: So if you look at a you know, at an

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oak bud or the bud of any kind of a tree, well,

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it's still.

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Speaker 1: Dormant before the leaves have burst out, or the best to.

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Speaker 2: Look at them while the leaves are bursting out, and

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then the bud scales kind of peel back, and the

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bud scales are a little brown scales.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like on buckeyes. They exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so just imagine that those are modified into spines.

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Speaker 1: No ship so it's not they're really not technically leaves,

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even though they're just called.

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Speaker 2: The bud scales are modified leaves.

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Speaker 1: Right, So.

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Speaker 2: We think of plants as having just three organs, you know, roots, stems,

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and leaves. So everything everything that's not modified root or

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a modified stem is going to be a modified leaf.

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So you get really odd things. That is, it's pretty

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easy to see this as a modified leaf. Like the

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pictures of picture plants right are modified leaves obviously.

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Speaker 1: Or the spines on okatillo, like you can see that's

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that's a pettiole. You can see it when that first

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new growth, the first leaves on okatillo, it's a that

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you could see the spine. It's a pettiole, but it's

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got a leaf at the end exactly. And then the

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leaf falls off and that's the spine. And then when

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then you've but you still got buds at the base

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of that spine. So the next season the leaves come

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out of that fascicle at the base of the spine.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah, So so modified leaves are

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everywhere in all kinds of crazy shapes and forms.

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Speaker 1: You had said you you were mentioning before to the

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one thing that cacked I had, Well, there's a couple

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of things, but the cortical bundles because they're parentama tissue.

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Because most of the MASSI of a cactus is mostly parentama.

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We got three tissue trankama. Most of a ca of

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a cactus is parentama. It's the low density you know, tissue,

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no secondary cell wall, only a primary cell wall. And

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most the most common in storage and photosynthesis like those

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are the photosynthetic tissue and storage tissue. So since you've

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got this and that's what the cortex is yeah right,

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So so that epidermal tissue, because that cortex is still thick,

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the epidermal tissue having to be supplied with water. Yes,

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that you run into a problem there. So that's I

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think that's the xylums on the other side of the

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cortex from the epidermis.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's the easiest to see in in

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the second euphobious euphobius that look like cacti. They and

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very often you'll see pictures of those were well, this

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looks just like a cactus, and they do look just

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like a cactus. But if you ever notice that from

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really euphobious, they're all is small and they never get

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to be great big and giant, like like a big

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kind of cactus plotycanthus or a golden barrel anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You have a four engines does yeah, the big one.

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Speaker 2: But each individual stem is not super thick. It doesn't

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have a super cortex.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 2: But so like we were talking about earlier today, if

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think about it, just an ordinary dichot, an ordinary broad

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leaf plant was skinny stem, non second stem, and and

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an epidermis. So this cortex is maybe an eighth or

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sixteenth of an inch thick, and the cortex may have

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a cuticle and wax, and it's water proof. It's when

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we say waterproof, if we're talking about it's more waterproof

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than nothing. But but it's always losing water. The epidermis

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is always losing water. So in a in a regular

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you die caught, that's not in a desert. Then then

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the water is coming up through the island zylum through

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the that ring of escuar bundles in the very center

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of the stem, and the water for the epidermis can

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and for the cortex, it just kind of leaks out

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the xylum into the cortex, diffuses across the cortex, plasm

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through monit through the wet walls, So all these cortex

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cells have wet walls. And then it gets to the epidermis.

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And and even though the epidermis is losing water to

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the to the air, it can be supplied with water

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from the xylum by by passing through this thin cortex.

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Speaker 1: Because it doesn't have this, yeah, this thick ass cortex.

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Speaker 2: So now imagine, imagine you've got a mutation that causes

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the cortex to be twice as thick. Well, that's really

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going to slow down the movement of water through it.

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So as long as that epidermis, which is now been

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pushed farther away from the islum, as long as that

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epidermis is not in a very dry area, then it's okay.

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It's it's not losing water too rapidly, and our movement

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of water through this now thicker cortex is slower, but

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it's fast enough to keep that epidermis alive. Okay. Now,

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let's have another mutation that moves the mikes, the cortex

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thicker and pushes the epidermis farther from the islum. So

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the epidermis is still losing its water and it's still

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hopefully getting water through the cortex from the islum. But

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at some point you can see where you're gonna have

235
00:13:38,919 --> 00:13:41,320
Every time you make the cortex thicker, the movement of

236
00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:44,360
the diffusion of water through that is slower.

237
00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: Right, it's slowing it down. But the benefit of having

238
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,000
that cortex so thick because it now you've got all

239
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,039
the storage tissue.

240
00:13:49,159 --> 00:13:52,679
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, But you can still imagine at some

241
00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:57,399
point the cortex is so thick and diffusion through the

242
00:13:57,399 --> 00:14:00,480
cortex is so slow that now the epidom missus in

243
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,440
danger that that the epidemics is losing water and at

244
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,360
some point where where it cannot get water from the

245
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,519
from the dilum through the cortex fast enough.

246
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,720
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to evolve some new tubes. You're going

247
00:14:14,799 --> 00:14:17,120
to have to evolve some new plumbing, right.

248
00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 2: And so that's and that's the that is the magic

249
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,960
feature in the cacti, in.

250
00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 1: The the cortical bundles, the.

251
00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:25,799
Speaker 2: Cortical bundles that they have, and they it could be

252
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,440
that they're modified leaf traces that leaf. You know, you

253
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,159
have vescar bundles that run from the from that central

254
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,200
cylinder of escer bundles out to the leaves and the buds,

255
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,519
and it could be that those started to branch and

256
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,960
just just ramify and be a network out in the cortex.

257
00:14:42,759 --> 00:14:46,600
And and once that happened, and that was just that

258
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,360
was just it has all kinds of benefits.

259
00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 1: Now you can get super thick, the cortex can be, Yeah,

260
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,440
it can be. Now you can get biz nagas and yeah,

261
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,720
it kind of cracked Plady of Canthus and all these

262
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,559
other giants.

263
00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 2: The cortex can be really thick and and you're not

264
00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,759
moving water to the epidermis by means of diffusion. Now

265
00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:11,159
you're moving water from the inner set of vascar bundles

266
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,679
out to the epidermis by means of these.

267
00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:18,159
Speaker 1: Cortical bundles, tubes you've got.

268
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,720
Speaker 2: You've got tracheads or vessels.

269
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,279
Speaker 1: And is that what is that what cortical bundles. I mean,

270
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,639
Are they're literally tracheads or vessels or are.

271
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,559
Speaker 2: They No, they have there's there's a both xylum and flowing.

272
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,879
Speaker 1: Oh my god, but they're later they're not.

273
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 2: They're running, Yes, they're running. They're running more or less

274
00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:38,159
not straight out. It's forming a network. Think think of

275
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,039
it like the network and leaf die caught leaf.

276
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

277
00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:44,440
Speaker 2: So it's a three dimensional network that's running out up

278
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:47,799
and down and ready outward through the through the cortex.

279
00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:50,879
So even if you'd involved to have a cortex adius

280
00:15:51,399 --> 00:15:55,720
ten feet thick and your epidermis is away out there, Yeah,

281
00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:57,840
as long as the xylum in the center of your

282
00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:00,440
plant has water, it's getting water from the roots, you

283
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,440
can conduct that water out to the epidermist and keep

284
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:03,320
the epidermis alive.

285
00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:06,399
Speaker 1: So that makes me want to think, That makes me

286
00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:08,919
want to ask you about like when people graft like you,

287
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,039
some of these people graf the cactus nerds grafted or

288
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,039
even like I've been grafting stuff like some of the

289
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,080
native cacti in South Texas, like a kind of serious

290
00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:20,919
Postsel Garrie, because I want to create a bunch and

291
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,080
then you know, have cuttings to give people to re

292
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720
establish them native plant cards and stuff. You graph that thing.

293
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,240
It grows ten times as fast, twenty times as fast.

294
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,320
But what are you doing when you're grafting that? Because

295
00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:36,120
you're the ring right in cacti being a uticut there,

296
00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:41,720
the vasculature is a ring in the stem with asylum

297
00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:44,000
on the inside and the flow them on the aup correct,

298
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,399
So what are you doing when you're grafting? Because I

299
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:48,720
like it kind of serious Postel Gray. I'm not it's

300
00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:51,080
a really tall, skinny cactus. Then I'll graft it to

301
00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:55,240
like myrtillo cactus. And I learned that I'm not putting

302
00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,320
it directly vertically because it's just this tiny pencil thick thing.

303
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,120
I'll cut it in half vertically and then lay it

304
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,559
horizontally on top of them martillity caractus. What's going on there?

305
00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:08,960
How is the vascular because the vasculature has to meet

306
00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:09,640
up right.

307
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,799
Speaker 2: Yes, it does, and you know sometimes it doesn't, and

308
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,319
that when it doesn't, then then your graft music okay

309
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,640
for a few months, and then the then the sign

310
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,519
just falls off. It shows up and falls off because

311
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:25,920
you never have established a vascular connection.

312
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,039
Speaker 1: But maybe you were just tied into some cortical bundles

313
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,039
and that's why it didn't die immediately. But you're not

314
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,480
into the true zion, right.

315
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 2: So what happens in in a successful graft is the

316
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,119
cutting has caused a wound response, and so the cells

317
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,839
that are near that, near the cut cells, they start

318
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,519
to start to divide as if they were going to

319
00:17:46,519 --> 00:17:51,160
form a scar tissue over the surface, but now they're

320
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,680
they're inside this graft union there with a nice wet

321
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,680
stock on the top and a nice wet sign on

322
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,839
the bottom, vice versa. And so they divide, but they

323
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,119
don't then turn into scar tissues. They don't die because

324
00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:07,880
they don't die. Yeah, they did.

325
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: It's glaring kama or what is it exactly?

326
00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 2: It's more kind of kind of a bark.

327
00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:16,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, But in that I mean, at the if you

328
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,839
look at the cutting of say that the stock, you've

329
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,000
got the pith and the cortex, and that's all the

330
00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:24,960
parent command and then you've got the vasculature, which is

331
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,960
a completely different kind of tissue. But basically, what you're

332
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,599
trying to do is mix the vascular tick mix, have

333
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,559
the vascular tissue of the stock mate up with the

334
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,200
vascular tissue of the scion.

335
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,319
Speaker 2: Trying to get there. You're trying to get the vascular

336
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,079
cambium of the two to be as close together as possible.

337
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: And where is the vascular cambium that would be more

338
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:45,599
towards the outside.

339
00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 2: Yes, close to the flow. Between the flow and the xylum.

340
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 1: The ring you see is going to be xylum and flowing.

341
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,319
Speaker 2: The ring you see is going to be mostly xylum,

342
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,119
just a little bit of flowing and that. And that's

343
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,559
because you know, the xylum, the xylem just persists and

344
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,319
just a cumulus as wood with the flow. When foam stops,

345
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,880
When floam stops conducting, it collapses.

346
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,759
Speaker 1: Well, flows alive at maturity, and xylon is dead at

347
00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:14,319
maturity as well. Right for the most part, are there.

348
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:14,880
Speaker 2: For the most part?

349
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

350
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, but but the floam, this the siep tubes

351
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,039
and flow usually only conduct for anywhere from a few

352
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,119
weeks to maybe two or three years. And then when

353
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,240
they stop conducting, they usually collapse and then in everyplaced

354
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,680
by Yeah, the cambium is concreting new floam if it's

355
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:33,519
got a cambium.

356
00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,440
Speaker 1: But like in monoconts, that's totally different thing. Secondary growth.

357
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:40,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can't can you graph monocots.

358
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,279
Speaker 1: No, we're going to get that. We're going to get

359
00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:45,799
the Monocst's going to be a long conversation.

360
00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:51,519
Speaker 2: So you've gotta grating. You're grapping woody plants, you're grapping

361
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:57,240
die coots or conifers, and and so you you try

362
00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:00,839
to get those the two cambia lined up as much

363
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,599
as possible, and they're creating cells. Basically, it's kind of

364
00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:07,440
a wound, kind of a wound callous and apparently there's

365
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,519
some there's a factor that comes from the from the

366
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:13,279
cambium of one and the fact that comes from the

367
00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:18,680
cambium of two, and so you have this diffusion field

368
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,240
and the new xyland flow can can differentiate towards the

369
00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:26,759
new cambium of the one, the new cambium the cameum

370
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,440
with the other one, and so we get this this

371
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,160
graft union form. You get continuous asylum from the stock

372
00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,359
up into the scion continuous flow. So if it.

373
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: Works, so you can't I didn't realize that before. You

374
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,880
can't graft monocots like wow, I don't, Yeah, because it's

375
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,799
totally different. Instead of it being a ring, they're just

376
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,000
kind of scattered at a.

377
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 2: Curtain and yeah and yeah, and they're usually not going

378
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,880
to form a scar tissue. They mostly just die and

379
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,039
you get maybe you get one layer of quirky cells

380
00:20:58,039 --> 00:21:00,519
at the surface, but you're not going to get a

381
00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:02,599
real proliferation of cells and monocots.

382
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,799
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't realize that.

383
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 2: But in the cortical bundles. There's a there's a mistletoe

384
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:21,319
in in southern Peru that called Lagaria that attacks a

385
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:29,079
big columnar cactus and and most yes Ligaria l I,

386
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,400
G A, R A, and so it most cacti are

387
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,200
protected from mistletoes because the mistletoe seed will land on

388
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,759
the surface and then it's got to get some cells,

389
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,119
got to get some house storyum root tip into the

390
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,119
into the host and then get that root tip into

391
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,039
the flow and start you know, getting nutrients. But the

392
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,920
characters have big thick cortex that the poor parasite is

393
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,000
in there and there's just cortex which is just water,

394
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,279
just water balon, yeah, and nothing to eat more watermelon,

395
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,920
more model watermelon. And finally after the poor little say

396
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,400
ordinary mistletoe, this it's its root has grown through this cortex.

397
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,119
Finally the seed just runs out of energy and it dies.

398
00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:20,359
So most cacti I pretty well protected from mistletoe just

399
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:20,880
by being sold.

400
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: It's got to tap into the xylum and flown exactly.

401
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,839
Speaker 2: But lagaria does this crazy thing. It taps into the

402
00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:28,720
cortical bundles.

403
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: That sure, is that what trist rex does too, No.

404
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 2: Tristrix, that's a whole different story.

405
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,799
Speaker 1: Okay, let's think tristris last conversation.

406
00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: So with with lagaria, it's it's a historium. Instead of

407
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,440
searching for the those vascular bundles in the very center

408
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,480
of this stem it, it finds a cortical bundle which

409
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,799
has island flown and it's pretty weak and so you

410
00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,160
wouldn't expect it to have very much conduction capacity for

411
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,759
this mistletoe. But the lagaria stimulates the cactus to then

412
00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:10,319
have this this cortical bundles to start growing and getting thicker,

413
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,200
as if it were like say, uh, the basket supply

414
00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:14,960
to a branch.

415
00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: How is it doing that? It's how is it manipulating

416
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,400
the cactus into.

417
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: I would guess supplaying with hormones, probably xylon, probably with

418
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,480
oxen or sodokin and then but so it's like, okay,

419
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:33,200
the parasite went just making this, causing the host cactus

420
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,519
to start making all this xylum which should be feeding

421
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:46,000
the parasite. But wonderful thing about evolition Xylum secondary islum

422
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:52,440
is conducting vessels and supporting fibers, and the fibers are

423
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,799
just you know, thick walled.

424
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: Tough fibers, aren't doing any conducting, they're.

425
00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: Not doing any clan struct cacti that can cacti. The

426
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,359
fibers stay alive, but they're thick walled, they can't conduct,

427
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:08,200
they have almost no nutrients in them. And so so

428
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:11,960
the cactus has been tricked into making wood by the lagaria.

429
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,039
But the cactus responds by making a wood that is

430
00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:23,400
almost purely fibers. It's not not conducting, So so the

431
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,440
poor lagaria is pretty much just screwed. Now. Apparently, every

432
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,319
once in a while it's able to get enough get.

433
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:33,559
Speaker 1: Enough, so lagaria doesn't normally infect cact diets.

434
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:34,039
Speaker 2: No it does.

435
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: It's going for other things and then ends up on

436
00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:37,039
kacti or what.

437
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,319
Speaker 2: No, it's I think it's pretty specific, this lagaria, but

438
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:43,799
run out of I mean, well, no, it is somehow

439
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:46,400
Apparently every once in a while it works and it

440
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,480
tricks the cactus and the cactus does respond properly, and

441
00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:52,440
so you get and then so you do get this

442
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,759
these cortical bundles growing into a big, nice, good supply

443
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,799
that that does keep the lagary growing. Then the lagary

444
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:02,920
g to be a great, big bush. It's huge, and

445
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,960
apparently and then the top of the cactus above this

446
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:10,359
point of infection dies. So you're driving along and southern

447
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,640
Peru and you see this cactus with a bush on

448
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,119
top of it, and you go, what the hell is that? Yeah,

449
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,319
and it's so you can't miss it. It's it's you know,

450
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,960
with other plants you kind of have to search and

451
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,240
search and search to find a missiletoe, and this is like,

452
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,440
oh no, it's this huge bush sitting on top of

453
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:26,000
a cactus.

454
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a paper I'm trying to look at right now,

455
00:25:28,319 --> 00:25:31,759
and I see host response and endophyte structure written by you.

456
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:37,119
A missiletoe that attacks cacti like Garia cunifolia. Yeah, Choreo

457
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,200
Cactus brevist stylista. I remember seeing that one. So that's cool.

458
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: So this is the only one that we know where

459
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,519
the missiletoe attacks is able to survive by attacking cortical

460
00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:51,799
bundles and the tristricks ay phyllis that you were talking

461
00:25:51,799 --> 00:26:00,559
about before that attacks, uh, the treka serius in Chili.

462
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:07,519
What it does is a totally bizarre biology that the

463
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,039
root tip the houstorium of the parasite seedling. The root

464
00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:17,400
tip presses against the cactus epidermis that has cuticle and

465
00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:20,279
wax and stuff like that, and layer after layer of

466
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:26,160
thick walled hypoderma cells and like any missiles, so then

467
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,480
the storiam tip just presses against the cactus surface and

468
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,880
kind of spreads out and it glues itself. And then

469
00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:38,880
and then once it's really glued to the cactus, it

470
00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:45,079
spreads and contracts, and this contraction rips the epidermis off

471
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,000
of the cactus and it it basically sucks the sucks

472
00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:55,400
the the cactus cuticle and wax and stuff like that

473
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,400
up into the root tip of the parasite. You've gotta

474
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:01,160
you have to see the pictures in the paper, so

475
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,319
you can imagine a root tip down here, and you

476
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,039
take a longitudinal section and there in the middle of

477
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:10,880
the of the parasite's root you have the pieces of

478
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,240
the cactuses cuticle got it ripped off, and then and

479
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:18,240
then the parasite now is laying right against this naked hypodermis,

480
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,160
no cuticle, no wax, no nothing to protect that poor cactus.

481
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:31,400
And the tristrix then presses against the hypodermis and you

482
00:27:31,519 --> 00:27:35,960
have all wherever there was a stoma in the epidermis

483
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:38,319
with your two guard cells below that. You have to

484
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:40,680
have a hole in the hypoderma so that carbon dioxi

485
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,079
I can get once it gets through the stoma, so

486
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,680
model poor you can get through the hypodermis and into

487
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,759
the cactus cortex. Well with the ligeria. What the tristrix

488
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:54,920
does is it presses against those holes, and some of

489
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,640
its root cells then squeeze through the holes and get

490
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,880
into the The wholes are subst model chambers you sendto

491
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,519
the charactus cortex and then they start to proliferate these skinny, skinny,

492
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:11,119
skinny parasite cells and then start to divide and divide.

493
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: It just using the endosperm from the original seed, or

494
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:14,079
is it.

495
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: Well, at this point, now they're probably starting to draw

496
00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:20,160
nutrients from the from the cactus cortex. Now no I

497
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,200
talked to earlier that well, on regular missiletow they can't

498
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,119
get enough nutrient from the cactus cortex because it's just

499
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,799
so watery and so so poor and starch. But now

500
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:31,440
we're not trying to feed a whole seeding, We're just

501
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,440
feeding one or two cells of the parasite so creepy,

502
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,319
So the parasite cells start to kind of proliferate almost

503
00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:43,839
like a like a little callous little nodule, and the

504
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,279
seed dies at that point. Then the then the tristrics

505
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:52,559
seed dies and the parasite exists as nothing except this

506
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,799
little nodule of cells inside the cactus cortex. And so

507
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,279
then they just start to make these long, skinny cells

508
00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:03,960
that then squeeze in between the cactus cells and start

509
00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:10,400
invading the cactus cortex kind of like a fungus my

510
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:13,480
celium would do, and.

511
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: So fucking insane.

512
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: So at this point, you've got this, You've got this

513
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,960
mistletoe which is in you a diecot seed plant that

514
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,079
its body is nothing except a few little prank mysel exactly.

515
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:31,799
So this and so it can grow. We have no

516
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,000
idea how many months or years it takes, but it grows,

517
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:37,839
and it grows up up the cortex and down the

518
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,200
cortex and in and it it doesn't really look like

519
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,400
it's well. It might there might be chemical cues for

520
00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:50,680
to find where the where the sugary floam is, but

521
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:53,200
it kind of seems like it's just wandering around at random.

522
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:58,519
But eventually some of the cells make it to the flow,

523
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,519
and then they start to really proliferate and they become thicker,

524
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:06,880
but they still just stay as these strands of parenama,

525
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:14,400
and at some point they might form one cell of asylum,

526
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:16,319
a cell of flow, not.

527
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: A strand of just single cells. Yes, it's literally behaving

528
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,519
because you look at the host plants in Chile, like

529
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:29,119
you Lickna and the Tricho series, and they don't look sick.

530
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,839
But they've got the tristrics flowers bursting out of the top,

531
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,640
but it doesn't look like it's actually killing the tree.

532
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,079
Like if you look at an oak tree that's got

533
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:38,160
mistletoe on it, sometimes you can see the oak tree

534
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,279
is stressed out, but none of the cact i seem

535
00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:43,079
too stressed out. Is that because it's it's so so thin,

536
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,119
like it's this.

537
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question that it could be that.

538
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,079
And of course to be a really well adapted parasite,

539
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:53,680
you should not kill your host. Yeah, And it could

540
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,039
be that the tristrix is just a really well adapted

541
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:59,519
parasite that it's it's not vigor enough, vigorous enough to

542
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,920
really hurt the host. So the host keeps growing so

543
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:07,559
the parasite can keep on him. The case, the host

544
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,960
keeps growing upward and the parasite can keep growing upward.

545
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,519
Speaker 1: Living in between the cells for the most part exactly.

546
00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:16,039
Speaker 2: But how does it.

547
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: It's kind of happen to the cells at some point,

548
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,240
right nutrients.

549
00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: And but when you look at it with the microscope,

550
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,599
it looks like the the host the cactus has no

551
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,359
clue that the cell that the hosts cell right next

552
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:30,960
right next to.

553
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,119
Speaker 1: The parasite, no defense response.

554
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: No obvious defense response whatsoever. They just they just both

555
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,759
look happy as they can be.

556
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: And so you see that at a cellular level too.

557
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so then so then the tristrict can then,

558
00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:50,039
like I said, we have no idea how long it

559
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:53,519
grows with no body other than just this frank or

560
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,200
useless one or two useless zyum cells, one or two

561
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:01,880
useless flow them cells. Test that by by taking a

562
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:09,799
taking a coast cactus that has just a little tiny

563
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,759
bit of obvious parasite on the outside of it, and

564
00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:17,480
then then we take samples up, up and down and

565
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,519
on the sides and on the opposite side, and make

566
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,799
microscope slides and look for are there any parasite cells

567
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:30,440
here or is this parasite free? And so we can

568
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,880
go a meter above and down below and all around

569
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,680
and you'll find parasite cells. So the parasite looks like

570
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,759
it's just growing all through.

571
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: Throughout the cactus, but not only existing. Is these very

572
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,279
thin strands between the cells.

573
00:32:49,839 --> 00:32:53,119
Speaker 2: Get yeahs it finally gets from the zynom a flow

574
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,720
and then the strands starts to thicken. They get they

575
00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:58,400
have longitudin each cell has a lunch ofitudinal division. So

576
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,799
it's now two cells thick for cells thick. And then

577
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,119
we'll make like I said, are useless one or two

578
00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:09,000
xium cells and flow them cells. Then at some point

579
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:14,359
the strands will get to be pretty thick, but pretty

580
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:21,079
thick still microscopic, and at some point they will start

581
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:23,960
to grow outwards towards the surface of the cactus. And

582
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:27,440
how they is that just random or can they detect? Well,

583
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,960
there's there's sort of sort of some light out there,

584
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,480
or there's more oxygen out there or something. But they

585
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,880
grow towards the surface, and then there's still stuck below

586
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,480
all these layers of hypodermis and epidermis, and they start

587
00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,559
to form a nodule again. And then inside this nodule

588
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:48,160
you get some cells start to divide really fast and

589
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,279
form an adventitious bud, an adventitious flower bud. And then

590
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:57,240
it pushes out and breaks breaks the cactus epidermis and

591
00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:01,680
hypodermis breaks it open. And then this this tristrics flower,

592
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,640
the parasite flower, emerges from the cactus.

593
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,519
Speaker 1: They come out the aerials, they do.

594
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:11,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the areals might be a soft spot where

595
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,280
the there was a flower, and so there's just there's

596
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:21,360
abscisions on that's soft. But yeah, and so then the

597
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,920
and then the cycles complete. But then but then even

598
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,280
after that's happened, the parasite, the parasite inside the host

599
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,760
cactus still continues to grow and grow and and you've seen.

600
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,039
You've seen sometimes the mistletoe on the outside, after flowering

601
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:41,079
and fruiting.

602
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,599
Speaker 1: Will just die, but.

603
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: That same plant on the inside is still healthy and

604
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,840
still growing. You I can imagine like like when when

605
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,719
bulbs die back during winter, so you lose all that

606
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,480
outer part, but the bulb part still stays alive. So

607
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:01,320
the same thing is happening with this parasite in this cactus.

608
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,440
The out of parts die and the inner parts stay alive,

609
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,880
maybe dormant, maybe still growing.

610
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:11,559
Speaker 1: It's so weird. Yeah, it was anybody else studying it.

611
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: Its anatomy I don't know that I know of, and

612
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,000
so I've just written like one or two papers on it.

613
00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:22,440
So it's something that anybody should study.

614
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: Did you would you? You weren't able to get material

615
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,000
back to U T. Austin. Were you were you doing

616
00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:27,960
at the university down there?

617
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, at the Catholic University in Santiago.

618
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool. If you hadn't done that work,

619
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,840
nobody would have known how fucking weird that plants.

620
00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:40,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I like to think of it as ask

621
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:45,000
how much can a plant lose and still be a plant?

622
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:50,199
So this so after this, after the parasite seed gets

623
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:55,760
his few cells into the cactus, and this parasite seed dies.

624
00:35:56,679 --> 00:35:59,159
Then its body is just these few little prankama cells.

625
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:04,599
So it has no it has no stem, no leaf,

626
00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:09,360
no root, no epidermis, no hypodermis, no flowers.

627
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: No, it's just it's just p cells living inside the host.

628
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,440
That's insane, yea.

629
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: And of course it's living inside of a food source.

630
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,639
So think of it. I think it was the tapeworm.

631
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,840
So tapeworm gets inside of us. It doesn't need to

632
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,559
have arms or legs or anything like that. All it

633
00:36:26,599 --> 00:36:28,280
just needs to do is be able to absorb material

634
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,920
out of our gut and reproduce.

635
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: Man, do you know, I wonder what's the case with

636
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,599
pilos styles. Has anyone dissected like Dahlia for testins wood

637
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:40,400
or any of the other host plants and seeing what's

638
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,039
going on with.

639
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: That, Yes, there's a nice there's there are several nice

640
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:51,639
papers on Pilostylis, and it's pretty similar that it gets

641
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:56,920
some parankuma into the Dahlia xylum and then that and

642
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,480
then after that, the pilostyles seed dies and the pilot

643
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:04,880
stati's body and I just consists of a few cells

644
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,800
in this in the host plant body and grows up

645
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,880
and down well, I don't know if it grows down

646
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,159
grows up, and as long as the host is alive

647
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,280
and healthy, then every year you get more and more

648
00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:22,840
host shoot and so the pilot starts presumably can grow up.

649
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:28,679
There's I know of two or three papers. One is

650
00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:32,320
in nineteen fifty seven, I can't remember the author, and

651
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,119
then there's been a more recent one with really beautiful,

652
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,840
very very thin sections that that could trace where the

653
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,760
cells are withinside the host's body.

654
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: But the seed, I mean kind of like in restorates.

655
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,480
The seed is just kind of a spaceship to get

656
00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:52,960
a couple of cells into the host and then anymore exactly,

657
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:55,000
it's like a little shuttle just to get it.

658
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so then the idea of making a whole seed

659
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,800
and then throwing it all away is is pretty bizarre.

660
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: But why does does well? I guess I've only seen

661
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,719
it on Dahlia for Testants. I've never seen pilos stylies.

662
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,840
I'm like Sorro feminists, the smoke tree in i Mohave Desert,

663
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,440
but but it liked the one in Daily in the

664
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,159
Daily for Testants, I've seen. It's always the flowers always

665
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,800
erupt out of the lower extremities of the shrub, which

666
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:22,119
is weird.

667
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: That's what I've seen to you.

668
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 1: They smell really good. To have you smelled them afore?

669
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:27,159
Speaker 2: I can't.

670
00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: I haven't.

671
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: I've tried. I can smell them.

672
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,679
Speaker 1: God, they smelled so good. They were going off and

673
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,199
these butterflies were hitting them. They were pollinated by butterflies.

674
00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:36,519
They got a really nice photo of a butterfly. Second,

675
00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:38,159
I've been that.

676
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,199
Speaker 2: I look at the same population that you've looked at,

677
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,800
and I've driven up and down that road at a

678
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,599
time when they were not in bloom and and I

679
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:53,719
couldn't see daily I couldn't see I saw a lot

680
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,320
about the daily plants, but I didn't see any with

681
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,239
the pilot studies on them. So I think it might

682
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,159
be just a few as in that one small area.

683
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: I wonder what the fruit looks like.

684
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,159
Speaker 2: I have no idea how.

685
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,119
Speaker 1: It's this spersed. There's that really tristrics. There's a really

686
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:11,760
good David Attenborough footage you can watch it on YouTube

687
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,119
of the bird shitting on a shitting out of tristric

688
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,239
seed on a cacas. They they did a really great job,

689
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,519
it's in depth.

690
00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:24,199
Speaker 2: But well, the tristric seed has another sweet so it's

691
00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:30,920
a one seeded pseudo fruit, one pseudo seeded fruit. So

692
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,320
it looks like a little tiny grape with a kind

693
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,800
of a translucent skin, and you can see the seed

694
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,760
inside and the the the embryo is bright green, emerald green,

695
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:48,519
just packed full of chlorophylls. So no odd thing for

696
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:54,719
a hollow parasite. But and this the little fruits will

697
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,599
stay healthy for a long long time. But if you

698
00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:02,840
then just take a razor blade and just scar that

699
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,679
fruit wall, probably what you're doing is letting out carbon dioxide,

700
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,519
so the CO two that the respiration is built up

701
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:16,360
inside is released. Then the embryo immediately, like within minutes,

702
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:18,880
starts to get longer. And you can see this green,

703
00:40:20,199 --> 00:40:23,360
this green radical start to emerge. If you if you

704
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,199
take the fruit and you just cut off the end

705
00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:31,320
where the radical is, then within minutes the radical pushes out.

706
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:33,960
And if you if you're just letting it sit there

707
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,360
on the table, the radical pushes out and then turns down.

708
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: And within a few minutes.

709
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: Within a few minutes, yeah, and so it's like, so

710
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:52,599
I've always wondered if if you is that radical turning

711
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:56,840
downward or as it turning towards the dark tabletop, you know,

712
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,920
turning away from light. But that would help find the

713
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,119
cactus body if it's growing towards something dark. If it's

714
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:07,559
just growing down then if the seed dands on a

715
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,079
on a spine, then the radical would just grow downward,

716
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:13,840
which would be useless. So my guess is that probably

717
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,079
grows towards darkness or or maybe away from light and

718
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,000
finds the cactus body that way. But it's but it's

719
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:24,719
fast and and the radical can get to be long

720
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,519
two inches easily. Wow, you'll see them on rocks. You'll

721
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:35,440
see the the the tristrics fruits have germinator fallen on

722
00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:39,079
rocks and germinate on rocks and big old long radicals.

723
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:41,719
That of course then this everything dies.

724
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: But it's just injecting cells into the host.

725
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

726
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,599
Speaker 1: I wonder how easy that would be to grow in cultivation.

727
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,519
I've got a couple of trichos serious Chili Wentz's seedlings.

728
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,519
I just need to get seed of trystrics. Now it

729
00:41:55,559 --> 00:41:57,119
would be really curious.

730
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,599
Speaker 2: To Yeah, it'd be. And there's a report that that

731
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,840
Tristrix has been found on eight different species of cactus

732
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,760
in Chile, and I've only seen it on the Trekoserris chiliensis.

733
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,119
Speaker 1: I've seen on Eulycnia, and I saw it on Michellio Pontia,

734
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:18,679
that o pontioid, but it wasn't doing It wasn't It

735
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,840
didn't seem like it was thriving. And the cactus looks fine,

736
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:24,800
of course, so it can probably infect them, but it doesn't.

737
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,039
It's mostly on Eulycnia.

738
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:32,039
Speaker 2: And Yeah, that's an interesting thing about parasites is some

739
00:42:32,199 --> 00:42:37,760
of the viscum parasites can infect various species of euphobia,

740
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,639
but they don't do well, and they don't seem like

741
00:42:40,679 --> 00:42:44,440
they've It looks like the hosts are not really susceptible.

742
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: Hid Nora africana. Have you seen that before?

743
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: Yeah?

744
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:51,599
Speaker 1: God? What is Has anyone looked at that? Because that

745
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,639
infects some of those giant poison bush euphorbias.

746
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,639
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know. I haven't seen papers, but I

747
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,039
can't imagine nobody's look at it.

748
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: Pro Panky the other weird one that I guess they're in,

749
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:08,519
aristolochiac Prosa panky is Hignoria is too, I think their

750
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,119
sister genia.

751
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Prosa Panky is in Argentina.

752
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: What is it in fact there or what is it?

753
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,280
What's the host plant?

754
00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. I saw it with Roberto Kisling one time.

755
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: I've only seen specimens. God, that's so great. You got

756
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,239
to see it. And ye.

757
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: That all the steaments united, the one great big anthro

758
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:36,840
type thing. Okay, let's but there's so I said that,

759
00:43:37,159 --> 00:43:40,599
it's hard to imagine nobody's looked at it. But but

760
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,960
it's just amazing how many bizarre things that nobody looks at.

761
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,760
So so the tristicks on, the trichosaurs and Chile is

762
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,119
right there on on next to the highway, and everybody

763
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:59,400
drives by it, and nobody had looked at it until

764
00:43:59,400 --> 00:43:59,800
I came on.

765
00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:02,519
Speaker 1: Man, people take everything for credit. They just.

766
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,559
Speaker 2: Well, it's also you know, you look at it and

767
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:08,599
there's just nothing to compare to you. So it's like,

768
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,039
you know, you find new a new composite flowering, Well

769
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:16,760
you can compare to all the other thousands of compositis.

770
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,480
Well it's different this way, it's different that way. But

771
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:24,519
you find a missletone that is totally bizarre, where do

772
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:26,679
you even start? So you have to be kind of

773
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,440
like kind of naive and think, well, I'll just I'll

774
00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:34,760
just explain it I see, and then come to find

775
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,559
out that's what it is, and nobody's ever looked.

776
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: I wonder what's going on with some of the micoheterotrophes,

777
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,519
like the plants that parasitize fungky like Monotropa uniflora like.

778
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:47,840
Looking at the seeds of those, they're tiny, there's no

779
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,280
there's barely any endosperm. They literally just have to fall

780
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,800
in their dust. They literally have to fall on the

781
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,199
ground and hope that they land on close close fungus. Yeah,

782
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,880
I would suppose. I don't know that's but that's true.

783
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: That's true of almost every kind of reproduction that you have.

784
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,599
You produce a gigantic number of seeds or spores, and

785
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:16,360
then almost all of them don't make it. So think

786
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,400
of a think of a stable population of say let's

787
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,440
use oaks. Since since we're in Texas, you've got a

788
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,920
stable population of a thousand oaks in this area, and

789
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,079
over the years or the lifetime of those thousand oaks,

790
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:38,719
they're going to make zillions of seeds. But how many

791
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,159
seeds have to germinate and survive and make it to

792
00:45:43,159 --> 00:45:46,840
where they can reproduce only one per plant. If you

793
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:53,400
have if if some plant is really lucky and I'll

794
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,480
say ten seeds germinate and survive, that it's not a

795
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:01,039
stable of population anymore. It's growing population. No, you have

796
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:05,079
ony ten seeds. Yeah, So so we look at it.

797
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:08,199
Most of the ecosystems of the world, we've got pretty

798
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,840
much table populations. Every one of those plants is succeeded

799
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,039
by only one plant, which.

800
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: Means that so many don't make it. They get eaten

801
00:46:17,639 --> 00:46:18,000
or they.

802
00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: Just exactly yeah. Right, So it's it's it's bizarre to think,

803
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,599
but but you know, ideally the one that makes it

804
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,519
is it's a little bit better adapted than all the

805
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:28,400
ones that don't make it.

806
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So moving on to another weird thing about cacti,

807
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:37,320
and we're just using I mean, that's your specialty. And

808
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,400
it's a great example too, because you have any pesky

809
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:41,559
leaves to get in the way for the most part.

810
00:46:41,639 --> 00:46:46,239
But root spurs cactus roots have always like enthralled me

811
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,800
because they just you got to figure in some of

812
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,800
these deserts where they grow, the soil too is getting

813
00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:55,440
bone dry. Yeah, like just there's you know, moisture just

814
00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:58,280
it's there to an extent that sure it can go deep,

815
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,199
but you know, most cac roots stay pretty close to

816
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,280
the surface of the soil. Anyway, What what is going

817
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,960
on with cactus roots? I mean, I want to talk

818
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,360
about root spurs as well, but but how can a

819
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,000
cactus roots they embedded in rock. I guess it's not

820
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:13,400
losing moisture in most cases.

821
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is this is something that's not really

822
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,480
been studied very well. So at one point I thought, well,

823
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,480
I'm going to start studying cactus roots because I've been

824
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:26,960
studying shoots so long. But then all that takes is

825
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,119
trying to dig a cactus route out of out of

826
00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:34,440
solid rock in the hot sun, and you find yourself, well,

827
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,320
I'm going to study something else that's a little bit easier.

828
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,719
So Norman Boke.

829
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,159
Speaker 1: And is that who Epathy Lantho Bogi is named it for?

830
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, and that's an important name.

831
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,079
Speaker 1: He he uh.

832
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:54,519
Speaker 2: He did research on cacti in the America's Southwest in

833
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:58,559
the nineteen fifties and sixties, and this beautiful paper just

834
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,320
really really clarified lots of things and really made it

835
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,719
understandable of what's going on in cacti. But for some reason,

836
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,000
somehow he's just not very often sighted. That not people

837
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:13,320
money know him. But but he was really great. He's

838
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,800
passed away. But but Norman boat Be okay, e's really

839
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:22,840
an important kind anatomous for cactus studies and things. But

840
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:28,039
he found an opuntian near El Paso that was growing

841
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:31,480
in sand and pulls it up and notice that there's

842
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:35,119
on the roots, there's the little spurs along the roots,

843
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,480
just short, little short, little nubs. And he found that

844
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,719
when it rains, those little nubs can grow out to

845
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,800
be short roots, and they grow out rapidly with just

846
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,159
a maunter of hours, and they have root hairs a matter.

847
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: Of hours, yes, and so they look like little nodules

848
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:55,079
or what.

849
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: So there basically the preformed roots that just need to

850
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,519
be well, like the radical, like the root in a seed,

851
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,559
it's already formed. It just needs to be hydrated.

852
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:09,119
Speaker 1: You've got a food reserve there too. I mean to

853
00:49:09,199 --> 00:49:10,400
grow that fast, I don't know.

854
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: I would guess probably, I don't know.

855
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: But within a matter of hours of a rain shooting.

856
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,119
Speaker 2: And they shoot out, put out lots and lots of

857
00:49:18,199 --> 00:49:20,880
root hairs. They don't have a root cap so even

858
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,840
over the apex, they have root hairs and can just

859
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,519
absorb water like crazy, get it back into the.

860
00:49:26,519 --> 00:49:30,119
Speaker 1: Main don't have a root cap. Wow, they can.

861
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:33,159
Speaker 2: Bring that water back into the main route and then

862
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:35,960
get it up into the body very very quickly.

863
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,599
Speaker 1: The root cap is like the little helmet that protects

864
00:49:38,639 --> 00:49:40,960
them from wile, especially going if you're going through sand.

865
00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: But these are not going to last long, so it

866
00:49:43,519 --> 00:49:44,639
doesn't matter if they get hurt.

867
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: So the root spurs are literally just out there to

868
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,760
cast out, collect water and then die.

869
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

870
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: The roots spurs, yeah wow.

871
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:53,199
Speaker 2: I would say think of them like the leaves of

872
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:59,320
okotillo that when there's rain you put them out and

873
00:49:59,440 --> 00:49:59,920
then letting.

874
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: They're just meant to be ephemeral.

875
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're just ephemeral roots. And then but when

876
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,440
they die at their base, a few roots, a few

877
00:50:08,519 --> 00:50:12,280
root cells stay alive and then make a root primoive

878
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,639
and make this make the next little root spur. And

879
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,360
then year after year after year after this happens over

880
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,760
and over and over again, and then you build up

881
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,119
this little spur. Now you can kind of see it.

882
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's what the spur is. It's kind of

883
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,559
like layers of those different.

884
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the remnants of the previous year's stuff. And

885
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:34,840
so both found this in a puntia or an area,

886
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,159
and then Nigel Taylor has looked for these in a

887
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,039
bunch of other cacti and found them in a lot.

888
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,280
I've looked at looked for them occasionally when I get

889
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,079
a plant and from a nursery, and I very often

890
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:53,039
see them, but I've never made a real all out

891
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:55,840
effort enough to say, yeah, they occur in everything.

892
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: God, that's so cool. Though. I knew there was something

893
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,199
weird about because you figure, I mean, when you think

894
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:03,280
about it, you like, this thing is sitting in like aerocarpus,

895
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,360
it's sitting in limestone, like that's got to get hot

896
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,199
as hell and completely dry, like bone dry. When you're

897
00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:12,599
going for a few months without any rain and whatever.

898
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,559
Speaker 2: It rains, you can't at that point, you can't say, oh,

899
00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:18,400
I better start making a root now, right.

900
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: You've got to have it ready to go. Yeah, so

901
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,880
there was in a few hours, it just shoots out.

902
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,000
And so that's what. So that's the answer to there

903
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:27,519
that soil or soil conditions is the roots burs.

904
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,679
Speaker 2: Probably, but it but then you think about it, that

905
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:36,039
In addition to absorbing water and minerals, another thing that

906
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:41,119
roots do is they secrete side of canons and so

907
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:43,519
and so the side of canons and to go from

908
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:46,800
the roots up into the shoots. So what this is

909
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,519
and and of course the shoots are making oxens that

910
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:51,760
get transported down to the root. And so this is

911
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:54,280
so you've got this plant, you know, a great big

912
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,000
tree or a little tiny cactus. And how do they

913
00:51:57,079 --> 00:51:58,800
know what's going on with the rest of the body.

914
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,079
You know, we've got blood that circuits around a nerve

915
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,440
nervous system, But how does a shoot know. Oh my gosh,

916
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,800
the roots are happy, the roots have water, the roots

917
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,280
have minerals. I might as well I put out some

918
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,679
relieves because it's my healthy root system is gonna give

919
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,559
me water. So if so, when the roots are happy,

920
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,559
they make cider kinin that goes up from them.

921
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: Just the plant hormone like oxen.

922
00:52:21,679 --> 00:52:24,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it goes up this sudden this hormone

923
00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:27,760
goes up into the stem and says the roots are happy,

924
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,280
go ahead, and then the shoe can become active. And

925
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,119
they're making this hormone that goes down to the roots

926
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:38,880
and says the shoot's active, so keep growing, keep getting water,

927
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:45,960
keep getting minerals. In cacti where they can just sit

928
00:52:46,079 --> 00:52:48,800
in a dry soil for months and months and months

929
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:55,000
and months, are the roots dormant and not making CID

930
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:58,880
of kinin so they're telling the shoot don't grow, the

931
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,400
soil is dry. I have no cid of kinon so

932
00:53:03,639 --> 00:53:09,239
and then and then do these spur roots when they

933
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,239
grow out, do they give a burst of side of

934
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,400
kind and say, oh, we're happy, go ahead and grow

935
00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:17,960
or or so this's that aspect. So I know a

936
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,000
little bit of the anatomy of these things, but we

937
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:21,719
don't know anything about the physiology.

938
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:24,159
Speaker 1: That's crazy to me because those are that's such a

939
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,920
huge I mean, they've just mastered growing in such a

940
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,840
shitty place. I mean just in terms of I love

941
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:32,840
the desert, but you know what I mean, Yeah, yeah,

942
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,519
I mean it's they shouldn't be there, and then they

943
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:36,159
figured it out.

944
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 2: Does this does this biology then carry over to the

945
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,559
epiphetic cacti where you've got they've got roots in the

946
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,800
in the humans and stuff and yeah, in dead litter

947
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,760
in the tree tree canopy.

948
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you still aren't growing in any soil

949
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,480
maybe some of them there's like there's humans up there,

950
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:55,920
but you're still can get really dry even and you know,

951
00:53:56,119 --> 00:53:56,719
so you've got.

952
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: Again the only thing to do is look, do these

953
00:53:58,920 --> 00:53:59,960
things have spur roots?

954
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:02,559
Speaker 1: Or how many cacti have been found that don't have

955
00:54:02,679 --> 00:54:03,320
spur roots?

956
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: Well, that's I mean negative evidence. Negative evidence is always

957
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,519
worse than that just because.

958
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: They're not there, you don't see them, that it can't

959
00:54:15,039 --> 00:54:15,559
produce them.

960
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you don't know because nobody's looked, because

961
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,199
nobody's looked carefully enough, or that they don't.

962
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 1: But I think it's safe to presume that most cacked i,

963
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:30,800
at least in hot dry areas do this, because that

964
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,280
seems that's a huge benefit. You're having a little root

965
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,360
that can grow, can just take off within a few hours.

966
00:54:36,679 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: Assumptions. Assumptions will get you into a whole lot of

967
00:54:40,039 --> 00:54:44,159
try Yeah. Well knowing that though, but well, yeah, that

968
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:48,239
can be your hypothesis. Hypothesis is that probably most cacked

969
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:53,000
i in hot dry areas have rootspurs So then the

970
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:57,480
easiest thing to do is go out and look. You

971
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:03,039
order a cactus from a nursery that's been pretty carefully unpotted,

972
00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:08,960
and the roots are probably pretty undamaged, or you dig

973
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,480
one up from the habitat carefully and roots are undamaged,

974
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,320
and look at them. And and what what Nigel did

975
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,719
is he he got a bunch of cacti and parted

976
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,119
them up until they were happy and growing well, and

977
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,679
then just stopped watering them and let them dry for

978
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,840
a long time. And then after they'd been pretty stressed,

979
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,039
then he watered them and then parted them and looked

980
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:35,119
and found these little roots spurs all over the place.

981
00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: That is that's so fascinating. I had no idea.

982
00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:42,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a super simple experiment, and you don't

983
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:43,960
need a lot of money, you don't need a lot

984
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,000
of equipment. It's just just doing look maybe with a

985
00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:49,119
hand lenser naked eye.

986
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So root spurs basically are like these precharged

987
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,599
little nodules in cacti that are ready to respond to

988
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,800
rain really quickly and then just send out, send out.

989
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:05,760
How many other plant families do that? You know there's

990
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:06,880
something analogous to that.

991
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: Well, well, that's a good question that then I don't

992
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,039
know the answer to. And and one thing that's always

993
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,159
interested me, interested me is what do the roots of

994
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,800
bulbs do. So you've got like around Austin, we've got

995
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:28,000
we've got oxplit lily that blooms now and then piss

996
00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:32,079
up its leaves in early winter and then goes totally

997
00:56:32,199 --> 00:56:37,079
dormant for months and months and months until the next September.

998
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,280
And what are their roots doing. My guess is that

999
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,239
they've hab sized all the routes that they have no

1000
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,119
roots doing.

1001
00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:47,159
Speaker 1: It would make sense. Yeah, I just cut them off

1002
00:56:47,199 --> 00:56:49,760
because you're going to be losing moisture. I mean, even

1003
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,639
though the roots sealed off from the atmosphere, there's still moisture.

1004
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:54,519
Speaker 2: They're in dry soil.

1005
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: They've got to be being Yeah, there's moisture, got it,

1006
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:57,880
that's probably going to be pulled out of them.

1007
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:04,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. And onions and their roots are all dead, and

1008
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:06,840
it's not that the farmers cut them off. It's just

1009
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:13,000
the roots die. But on palm trees, their roots, their

1010
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:16,880
roots don't die. And palms are just a giant bulb

1011
00:57:18,159 --> 00:57:18,480
they are.

1012
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,199
Speaker 1: To explain that you have a dug of a palm seedling,

1013
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,239
so oh, yeah, actually, yeah, you're right, I have Yeah, yeah,

1014
00:57:27,239 --> 00:57:28,599
it does look kind of like an onion.

1015
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you've got a little tiny palm seed,

1016
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,360
and that's the coconut. Most palm seeds are pretty small,

1017
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,480
and that seedlings makes us a little short, skinny shoot

1018
00:57:43,159 --> 00:57:46,079
that doesn't have enough room for very many adventitious roots.

1019
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,039
Speaker 1: So so what.

1020
00:57:49,519 --> 00:57:52,199
Speaker 2: Palms do is they go through a period called establishment

1021
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,400
growth where they stay where the base of the stem

1022
00:57:55,639 --> 00:57:59,119
stays underground, and the thing just gets wider and wider

1023
00:57:59,239 --> 00:58:02,639
and wider, but not longer. And you know, making one

1024
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,199
or two leaves, it gets wider and wider and water

1025
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,480
so it can make more and more adventitious boot but

1026
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,079
roots for all these extra vascuar bundles that's making. And

1027
00:58:12,119 --> 00:58:15,159
then at some point when it's really wide and has

1028
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,199
lots and lots of basket bundles and lots and lots

1029
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:22,039
of adventious roots, then it starts to grow up and

1030
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,599
for a while it continues to make more adventurous roots

1031
00:58:25,639 --> 00:58:28,880
out into the soil. And in palms especially, you can

1032
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:33,320
see that even after this stem is above the soil level,

1033
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,840
they'll still make adventitious routs. Yeah, but they aren't able

1034
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,679
to get to the soil, so they die and kick

1035
00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:42,119
the bucket.

1036
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: And you'll even see on some public the Washingtonians which

1037
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:46,760
get planted weights in which they've got that kind of

1038
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:47,920
flanged base.

1039
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,199
Speaker 2: Exactly, so they make all those adventirous roots that are

1040
00:58:51,519 --> 00:58:53,400
pushing out, and then you gotta have room for them.

1041
00:58:55,599 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: But so it's wider, but it's not, it's still.

1042
00:58:57,639 --> 00:59:02,559
Speaker 2: Not it's seconds lateral as No, it's just lots and

1043
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:07,760
lots of bascular bundles in this, in this monocot cylinder,

1044
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,920
that is a bunch of scattered bundles, not a ring

1045
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,039
ring like in fact. So so I've wondered about the

1046
00:59:14,199 --> 00:59:17,679
roots of most bulbs and monocass like go dormant? Do

1047
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,920
the do the roots die? And just think about it.

1048
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:24,039
We can just walk around and look at what a

1049
00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:26,920
stem is doing. Oh, the leaves have fallen off. It's winter,

1050
00:59:27,039 --> 00:59:31,159
it's dormant. Oh the flowers are coming out in the spring.

1051
00:59:31,199 --> 00:59:33,679
The leaves are coming out. But we have no idea

1052
00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:35,440
what the roots are doing unless you dig them up.

1053
00:59:36,199 --> 00:59:39,079
And and once you dig them up then probably you

1054
00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:40,840
can't really bury them again.

1055
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: And you don't have a tap root. Of course, it's

1056
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,320
fibers all monoconts.

1057
00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 2: Yea, what is that? God?

1058
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: There's that? This is? This would be a curious thing

1059
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,679
to study there's that palm pseudo phoenix. It grows in

1060
00:59:53,679 --> 00:59:57,280
the Dominican Republic. It's like a bottle palm. It's oh,

1061
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,719
why right, what is going on? That's that's got to

1062
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:00,559
just be parankama.

1063
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: I think it is. I think it's parankama that in

1064
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:06,639
between the basket bundles that for some reason, it just

1065
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,119
starts to divide again. After it's been sitting there for years,

1066
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,800
it starts to divide. Makes this makes the stem wider,

1067
01:00:13,679 --> 01:00:14,920
gives it this bottle shape.

1068
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:20,039
Speaker 1: Yes, Phoenix vaniphra here, this guy, what a beautiful it's

1069
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:22,960
it's yeah, it's got that layer of farina on the

1070
01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:24,519
outside too. Yeah.

1071
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: So Bob, I would guess extra storage cells.

1072
01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:34,199
Speaker 1: That are just larger, I mean more and more storage

1073
01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:38,760
cells and then yeah, but it's still originally created at

1074
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:39,519
the appical marast.

1075
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you think of parankama as being these

1076
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:48,119
big cells with thin walls. But but there's one thing

1077
01:00:48,199 --> 01:00:52,119
to be to have one big cell with thin walls,

1078
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,440
or if you have that same volume, you have two

1079
01:00:55,719 --> 01:00:59,679
cells that together the same volume and they have thin walls,

1080
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:02,360
that's going to be a little bit stronger, a little

1081
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,000
bit tougher than one giant.

1082
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,679
Speaker 1: Right, because you've masked for mass, you've got pine, you've

1083
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:08,440
got more cell.

1084
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:13,079
Speaker 2: Walls in there. So I have So when you get

1085
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:17,599
really great big cells like in watermelon, fruit or or

1086
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:24,960
ice plant, the we have those giant crystalline cells on

1087
01:01:25,039 --> 01:01:28,159
the surface, they're just so fragile you can't really do

1088
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,599
much of anything with them. So it's just better to

1089
01:01:30,679 --> 01:01:34,119
have a bunch of smaller cells. Right, there's still pranking,

1090
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,880
just thin walls, but that's going to be strong on

1091
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:39,679
a few great big cells.

1092
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: You've still got thin walls, right, But because there's so

1093
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,280
many more cells, you've got more structure in there. Yeah. Yeah,

1094
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,840
what is the I want to talk about innerclorie marastimes

1095
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:50,920
a mono constitute. But before I forget this, I want

1096
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:52,519
to get back to what like when you look at

1097
01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:56,000
a choya or some of the cat you get that

1098
01:01:56,119 --> 01:02:00,639
criss crossing wood. Oh, what's up with that? What is that? Exactly? Yeah,

1099
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,599
it's old xylum tissue, you know.

1100
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the secondary'sonymous wood.

1101
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,039
Speaker 1: It's old water plumbing.

1102
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:12,719
Speaker 2: But well, think about think about something like bamboo is

1103
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,280
an easy example. So you bamboo, you've got these nodes

1104
01:02:16,159 --> 01:02:19,119
and long, skinny nodes and especially think of think of

1105
01:02:19,239 --> 01:02:23,360
a variegated bamboo with the yellow and green stripes, and

1106
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,519
the stripes always run perfectly straight up the stem. They

1107
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:29,199
don't run around in circles, they don't run around in spirals,

1108
01:02:29,239 --> 01:02:32,679
they just go straight up the stem. Well, in bamboo,

1109
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,719
you're the cells that make the Internet is longer are

1110
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:39,639
transverse divisions, and the cells elongate, and the vascar bundles

1111
01:02:39,639 --> 01:02:41,639
are doing the same thing. So a vascuar bundle runs

1112
01:02:41,639 --> 01:02:43,559
straight up a stem of bamboo.

1113
01:02:44,519 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: And but.

1114
01:02:48,159 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: If that were the only thing, you'd have a vascuar

1115
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,639
bundle that starts with the route and then just goes

1116
01:02:53,679 --> 01:02:55,719
all the way up to the top. And if something

1117
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,159
happens that you're you're in trouble, you know, if the

1118
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:02,800
insect bites to it. So at every place where there's

1119
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:09,119
a node, the bundles come together and and form a neck,

1120
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:13,880
a network that water can be shared in the zion flow,

1121
01:03:14,199 --> 01:03:17,360
sugar can be shared in the flow. And if something's damaged,

1122
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:21,079
basket bundles damaged. Here at the next node you can

1123
01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:22,920
you can kind of get around it and detur around it.

1124
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: It's like having a string of Christmas lights, the old

1125
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,519
school ones where if one light went out, the whole

1126
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:29,199
thing goes out. This is the way around that.

1127
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,039
Speaker 2: But if you if you interconnect them, you can get

1128
01:03:31,039 --> 01:03:35,039
around it. And then and then die coots and you

1129
01:03:35,159 --> 01:03:38,800
dye coots. They don't. So when I say you dyecot,

1130
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,559
so the word die coot is now out right right

1131
01:03:42,679 --> 01:03:43,280
right you I.

1132
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: Still explain it just monocot, diecot. But just know there's

1133
01:03:46,519 --> 01:03:49,199
some stuff in between. Yeah, just you know, for for

1134
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,280
lay people, for people just getting into finding. But yes,

1135
01:03:52,639 --> 01:03:53,920
so so this thing.

1136
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,519
Speaker 2: So that's easy to see in bamboo, but in all plants,

1137
01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:01,559
you really want to have these your bundles connected somehow,

1138
01:04:01,719 --> 01:04:04,559
so they're not just not just independent strings of Christmas lights.

1139
01:04:05,159 --> 01:04:06,239
Speaker 1: And so.

1140
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,519
Speaker 2: Usually everywhere there's a leaf, at least some bundles are

1141
01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:13,800
going to come together, if not all bundles, at least

1142
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,320
some bundles are going to come together and share water,

1143
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:20,519
share flow, share sugars and stuff like that. And in

1144
01:04:23,199 --> 01:04:28,639
the choices, that's what you're seeing that at the top

1145
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,400
of the top of each of those where well, this

1146
01:04:31,519 --> 01:04:32,599
is where they come together.

1147
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: That's that's where a leaf was spinet exactly.

1148
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 2: And so and so if you could really very carefully

1149
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:47,079
dissect the skin off of a living choya and dissect

1150
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:50,480
the down through the cortex and get to the wood.

1151
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,440
You'd find that the wood forms a zigzag that matches

1152
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:55,320
where the leaves are.

1153
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: So those are nodes right where it comes together. It's

1154
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:00,920
it's basically a way for all those fi the interconnect

1155
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,119
not fibers, the plumbing, the InterPlaNet.

1156
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a and that's a really big deal

1157
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,320
that we don't know about in a lot of plants

1158
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:13,920
is the interconnection of the plumbing. So so and we

1159
01:05:14,039 --> 01:05:17,079
have is the vascuar bundles, so in a in a

1160
01:05:17,159 --> 01:05:20,639
cross section of a stemia of individual bundles. So the

1161
01:05:20,719 --> 01:05:23,639
important thing is do the bundles come together at some

1162
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,519
point so that they could share water? And and where

1163
01:05:27,519 --> 01:05:30,599
they do come together, do the do the vessels then

1164
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:34,119
come together so that it's you know, it wouldn't be

1165
01:05:34,159 --> 01:05:36,679
any wouldn't do you much good if the if the

1166
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,840
vascuar bundles came together, but the vessels in the bundles

1167
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,280
didn't come together. So if you want to share water,

1168
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,199
you have to unload water from this vessel through pranko

1169
01:05:47,199 --> 01:05:49,119
my cell, the prank and cell prank cell get into

1170
01:05:49,159 --> 01:05:49,960
this vessel.

1171
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,039
Speaker 1: Just through plasma doesn'mount it. Yeah, yeah, So we're going

1172
01:05:53,119 --> 01:05:54,400
to talk about that by the if you don't know

1173
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,079
what plasma doesn'mounter as we're getting to that, that's of

1174
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:58,119
massive importance.

1175
01:05:58,159 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So a much better thing is to have the vessels,

1176
01:06:01,039 --> 01:06:03,320
if the bundles come together, then have the vessels come

1177
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,400
to gether, and the vessels gonna have their pitting between

1178
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,280
the in the in the common wall between them, so

1179
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,719
that water could be pulled from one into the other

1180
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,159
and vice versa. And but we don't know that for

1181
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:21,360
most plants, we assume that. And it's been it's been

1182
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,960
shown in some in some palms by Tomlinson and co

1183
01:06:26,159 --> 01:06:31,679
workers that they were able to track where how the

1184
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,519
vessels move, what their pattern is, and a and a

1185
01:06:36,119 --> 01:06:39,880
shoot and can they share water? Do they not share water?

1186
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:43,000
Stuff like that, and think of it in a petiole

1187
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:46,760
and a lot of diecots, a lot of you die

1188
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,840
kots have three vescue bundles that will go to the

1189
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:56,559
base of the petiole and then then do they stay

1190
01:06:56,719 --> 01:07:01,440
as independent veins up the petiole and into the leaf

1191
01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:04,840
and some plants they do. So if you could really

1192
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,440
carefully cut through the edge of a petiole. You'd cut

1193
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,480
one of those three and then one third of the

1194
01:07:13,639 --> 01:07:20,840
lamina could be really you know sol. But in other ones,

1195
01:07:22,159 --> 01:07:26,679
those three bundles come together, share water, share everything, and

1196
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,000
then they they break up into a whole set of

1197
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:32,639
bundles that runs through the petiole. So if you cut one,

1198
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:33,840
no problem.

1199
01:07:33,559 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 1: There's smaller bundles.

1200
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then and then again at the top of

1201
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:41,320
the petiole they might join again and make another nexus

1202
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,239
and then spread out through the whole lamina. But again

1203
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,880
we don't know that for most plants that it's all

1204
01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:48,719
great theory.

1205
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 1: But the lamina being the leaf blade.

1206
01:07:54,039 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 2: So and this is this is something that is really

1207
01:08:01,519 --> 01:08:05,920
cool that in some old experience experiments and then maybe

1208
01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:08,079
some newer ones that I don't know about, that what

1209
01:08:08,239 --> 01:08:10,559
people would do is, you know, with a really sharp

1210
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:16,159
pointed scalpel, take a broad leaf and just cut on

1211
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:20,800
two little little nicks in the lamina and say, okay,

1212
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,600
is this is this going to cut off? So so

1213
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:27,680
you've got a mid rib, and you've got the lateral

1214
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:29,760
veins coming out of the mid rib, not going out

1215
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,520
to the edge of the leaf bank of the leaf blade.

1216
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:36,760
If we cut one of those, is all the tissue

1217
01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:43,359
outside beyond that gonna die of dehodition. And for the

1218
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:48,239
most part the tissue survives that the network is able

1219
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:50,720
to get water around that cut and keep it alive.

1220
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,279
Speaker 1: But but.

1221
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 2: It it seemed like, well, it just seems like we

1222
01:08:58,079 --> 01:09:01,199
need a lot more studies of stuff like at how

1223
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,560
much of a safety margin is there built into these

1224
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:12,680
things now? On leaves, most plants have thousands of leaves.

1225
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:17,000
So if one, if part of one gets screwed up

1226
01:09:17,079 --> 01:09:21,960
by having a broken bundle and it can't conduct around it,

1227
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,760
who cares, Well, we lose that one part of the leaf.

1228
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,640
We've got thousands of the leaves, all of which are

1229
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:31,960
functioning just fine. Yeah, So how important it is we

1230
01:09:32,079 --> 01:09:37,840
don't know. But it just again, it'd be a simple,

1231
01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:43,359
simple studies that might have that might surprise us. That

1232
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,039
might surprise us, and that would That's been something I've

1233
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:51,039
wondered about in cactus cortical bundles. If you could take

1234
01:09:51,119 --> 01:09:54,600
a cactus with the really thick cortex and a narrow

1235
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,039
ring of bundles in the center, if you could just

1236
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:03,439
saw through the main bundles the main wood, could the

1237
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:08,199
cactus conduct enough water upwards through just the cortical bundles.

1238
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 1: That which are much smaller than the main which.

1239
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:15,560
Speaker 2: Are much smaller. Yeah, but nobody's ever nobody's ever counted

1240
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:21,520
to say, well, yeah, there are ten big bundles in

1241
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,039
the center, and each of those ten big bundles has

1242
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,640
five vessels that could conduct so much water. But out

1243
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,600
of the out of the cortex, we've got two hundred

1244
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,239
cortical bundles, each of which has one or two vessels

1245
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,840
that altogether, the conducting capacity of the cortex is much

1246
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,039
greater than the center.

1247
01:10:44,359 --> 01:10:47,119
Speaker 1: So that yeah, so that cortex, I mean, that's the

1248
01:10:47,239 --> 01:10:49,079
that's the key takeaway here though, on especially when you

1249
01:10:49,079 --> 01:10:52,800
think about something like grafting. That cortex is conducting sugars

1250
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:56,079
and water with those cortical bundles. And that's why, like

1251
01:10:56,159 --> 01:10:58,680
I think about when I grafted that, I laid a

1252
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,920
kind of series postel gray the pencil cactus, cut it

1253
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:03,880
in half, cut the stem in half, laid it down

1254
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:09,760
horizontally on top perpendicular to the tissue below on the stock,

1255
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,199
and it still takes. It takes, and then it just

1256
01:11:12,239 --> 01:11:14,600
sends out. It's crazy. It's the weirdest thing.

1257
01:11:15,199 --> 01:11:18,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would guess what did you graft it onto?

1258
01:11:18,159 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: I would guess way bigger. So it's like a quarter

1259
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:23,840
sized graft, like cutting a pencil in half and then

1260
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:24,720
graphing it onto like a.

1261
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:27,079
Speaker 2: So it'd be interesting to do that again. And then

1262
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:29,119
if the graph is successful after a year or two,

1263
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:33,159
you know, cut it open. Look are the are the

1264
01:11:33,279 --> 01:11:37,520
cortical bundles become woody and big and conductive or is

1265
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:42,079
it just really only a connection between the main centrals

1266
01:11:42,159 --> 01:11:43,119
you'd be able to see.

1267
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:46,199
Speaker 1: I would guess those cortical bundles are the main cambium.

1268
01:11:46,279 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 2: I would guess.

1269
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: So, yeah, okay, I'm gonna see that. I'm gonna make

1270
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,600
a bunch more and then we gotta go and there's

1271
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,359
come busy you we got to look at them under

1272
01:11:53,359 --> 01:11:53,840
the scope.

1273
01:11:54,079 --> 01:11:55,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think a big deal is that

1274
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,199
there's so much that can still be figured out by

1275
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:03,279
just doing but just looking, you know, just.

1276
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:07,199
Speaker 1: Well questioning, having a question at it.

1277
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that that.

1278
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:13,239
Speaker 1: I'd tell that.

1279
01:12:13,359 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 2: You know, my research over the years, so many many

1280
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,159
years could be done with just a handful of dollars

1281
01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:22,840
and I just simple microscope.

1282
01:12:22,199 --> 01:12:25,640
Speaker 1: But slicing those things that's the only hard part probably

1283
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,600
is like slicing it thin enough to look at.

1284
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,119
Speaker 2: But a lot of times you can just do that

1285
01:12:29,239 --> 01:12:33,239
with hand section, just just a razor blade and raise

1286
01:12:33,319 --> 01:12:36,520
braided and steady hand and yeah.

1287
01:12:37,279 --> 01:12:40,079
Speaker 1: It's yeah, God, it's so cool. It's wild stuff to

1288
01:12:40,079 --> 01:12:42,119
think about. Okay, well, okay, So moving back on to

1289
01:12:42,279 --> 01:12:45,079
roots though, and I still want to talk about intercalorie marastems.

1290
01:12:45,119 --> 01:12:48,399
We're putting that out there because that's a monocot specific thing, right,

1291
01:12:49,239 --> 01:12:54,199
intercallorie marastimes. It's basically yeah, I mean just the you know,

1292
01:12:54,319 --> 01:12:55,880
like the way that a lawn, the way you can

1293
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:00,359
mow along forbid forbid, you know, but it's you can

1294
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:03,000
mow it, but it's growing from the base versus you know,

1295
01:13:03,119 --> 01:13:05,079
like something like a shrub or something is growing from

1296
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:08,520
apical marasims at the top. Yeah, what's well, okay, well

1297
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:10,520
let's talk about this now. I guess okay, we'll save

1298
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,680
the roots there. I want to talk about what's going

1299
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,239
on with that. Okay, explain that where there's marastimes and

1300
01:13:15,399 --> 01:13:16,560
a lot of monocops do that.

1301
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:21,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, what so joays talking about with interculary mirrors

1302
01:13:21,039 --> 01:13:24,880
stims is Mirraorsims are often classified by their positions. So

1303
01:13:25,319 --> 01:13:28,920
if they're at the tip, there's a an apical marsine

1304
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:30,560
with the base or a bas of maristam. If they're

1305
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,239
in between the top and the bottom, they're an interculary

1306
01:13:33,239 --> 01:13:38,439
mirror stem and and intercular mirrors stems of grasses of

1307
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,800
lawnsi you mow that is in a leaf where the

1308
01:13:44,079 --> 01:13:46,720
it's kind of at the base of a leaf. It's

1309
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:50,720
the base of the blade between the blade and the

1310
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,840
and the sheathing leath. So in monocots, in most monocots,

1311
01:13:56,119 --> 01:14:00,000
the leaf blade doesn't just come down and attached dirt

1312
01:14:00,159 --> 01:14:04,680
into the stem. They do in a ga base put

1313
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,359
in grasses and in palms, the leaf blade comes down

1314
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,079
and then you get a thing that wraps around the

1315
01:14:12,159 --> 01:14:14,800
stem and goes down for quite a ways, and that's

1316
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,960
the sheathing leaf base, and so the the and that

1317
01:14:19,079 --> 01:14:22,920
gives a nice stable, stable attachment point to the to

1318
01:14:23,039 --> 01:14:27,199
the lamina to the leaf blade, and that sheathing leaf

1319
01:14:27,279 --> 01:14:30,760
base often goes all the way around this stem. And

1320
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,479
so I just talked about you die coos off and

1321
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,960
have just three rescue bundles going into them. And these

1322
01:14:37,079 --> 01:14:40,279
monocods typically have dozens or in the big palm leaf

1323
01:14:40,319 --> 01:14:43,399
will have hundreds and hundreds of ascube bundles going into

1324
01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:47,159
this sheathing leaf base and they run up that base

1325
01:14:47,239 --> 01:14:49,439
and then into into the leaf blade. So you have

1326
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:56,479
a really good connection in grasses uh an irises, and

1327
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:58,920
a bunch of things you have at the base of

1328
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:04,319
the blade is a mare. So so the blade you

1329
01:15:04,359 --> 01:15:06,720
can cut off the tip of the tip of the

1330
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,800
leaf blade. And but you haven't heard the basal mara

1331
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:12,920
sam with the intercilary marrasim because that keeps growing. And

1332
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:16,800
so this the leaf lamina leaf blade will keep getting

1333
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,880
longer and longer and longer, and so you can keep

1334
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:22,920
mowing your lawn over and over and again. Now you're

1335
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:27,000
not mowing the same leaf year after year. Each leaf

1336
01:15:27,119 --> 01:15:31,079
will finally stop growing. But the lawn is rhizomes have

1337
01:15:31,159 --> 01:15:33,119
spread and setting up new leaves that you've got to

1338
01:15:33,159 --> 01:15:33,479
cut off.

1339
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 1: Right. But this is why bunch of grasses can't be

1340
01:15:37,079 --> 01:15:41,039
made into the lawns because they don't spread by rhizome,

1341
01:15:41,399 --> 01:15:42,239
spread by raisomes.

1342
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like let's say you're doing with this with

1343
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,000
this with an iris, you could you next you know,

1344
01:15:49,079 --> 01:15:51,319
next spring, when your irises start to grow. Just cut

1345
01:15:51,359 --> 01:15:53,399
off the tip and you can watch and measure how

1346
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,199
long and how much lamina is left down to the soil.

1347
01:15:57,239 --> 01:16:00,760
And then you can just watch it measure how much

1348
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,159
it grows, and you can do that over and over again.

1349
01:16:04,239 --> 01:16:06,840
But at some point it's going to stop. That the

1350
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:12,800
inticular amrastime just stops. So so grass leaf, if you

1351
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:14,560
don't move your long your grass leaf is not going

1352
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:18,439
to get infinitely long. And an irish leap or an

1353
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:21,159
agabi leaf will not get infinitely.

1354
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: It will reach a certain length and then stop and

1355
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,800
then to flower it'll send up another and entirely separate.

1356
01:16:27,199 --> 01:16:27,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1357
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: The bud that sends up that inflorescence is down at

1358
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:30,199
the end.

1359
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's going to make them. It's going to

1360
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:34,840
make more and more new leaves instead of have the

1361
01:16:35,159 --> 01:16:38,119
same old leaf just get longer and longer and longer.

1362
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 1: But interclory marastims, does that apply strictly to monocots? You

1363
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:45,880
get in dicots at all?

1364
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 2: Or no? Let me think.

1365
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,359
Speaker 1: I would imagine it's mostly monocots.

1366
01:16:55,159 --> 01:17:02,199
Speaker 2: I think mostly monocots now with spines. We call that

1367
01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:06,479
a basil marrastem because there's really the tissue below the

1368
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:11,439
spine marrestem is not more spine. It is it's you

1369
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:16,319
know this this stem shoot, it's the shoot body. So

1370
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:21,359
then there's the marristam at the base of each spine.

1371
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1372
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:24,159
Speaker 2: So because it's the base of the spine, we call

1373
01:17:24,199 --> 01:17:26,920
it a basal marrot stem. If we were say halfway

1374
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:31,239
up the spine, then we so we'd have then we call.

1375
01:17:31,119 --> 01:17:35,520
Speaker 1: It ins that branches. But I've never thought about that

1376
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:37,399
and cact that for some reason, Like in an aerial

1377
01:17:38,119 --> 01:17:41,880
is there an applical marrastem there where, Yes, there has

1378
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:43,680
to be, because that's where the flowers are coming out

1379
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:44,000
of one.

1380
01:17:44,199 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 2: Right, and and that apical marastim is making the primordia

1381
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,039
for each of those spines. So the spines are modified

1382
01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:56,079
bud scales, so that actually bud marrastem, that accellent marestem

1383
01:17:57,079 --> 01:17:59,640
is a little short bud, a little short shoot that

1384
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:04,359
is making leaf primority that turn into spines. And then

1385
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,319
each spine rather than growing like a regular leaf, grows

1386
01:18:07,359 --> 01:18:09,119
as a spine with a basal marrow stem.

1387
01:18:10,239 --> 01:18:14,079
Speaker 1: But those marrow stems they can can they keep producing

1388
01:18:14,159 --> 01:18:16,560
flowers out of an aerial or yes?

1389
01:18:17,159 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's a it's just like a regular bud

1390
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:27,960
on on on like cotton or anything like that, and

1391
01:18:28,119 --> 01:18:30,399
it could grow out to be a say and I

1392
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:33,239
can prictly grow out to be another little pad, another

1393
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:38,720
shoot more as a flower. And in most plants, most cacti,

1394
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,960
most plants, if it flowers, then it's kind of one

1395
01:18:43,039 --> 01:18:45,079
and done. It's you get one flower.

1396
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 1: And because with cacti you only get one flower per areal,

1397
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:54,680
correct normally, but in some once it's already flowered, can

1398
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,800
that same aerial produce another flower the next year In.

1399
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,199
Speaker 2: A small number of feces of cacti, and uh, in

1400
01:19:02,399 --> 01:19:06,760
a martillo cactus, they you have three or four or

1401
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:10,279
five flowers at the same time from this one areole,

1402
01:19:11,079 --> 01:19:13,720
and then the next year they'll do it again and

1403
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:14,439
do it again.

1404
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:15,239
Speaker 1: Wow, and.

1405
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,199
Speaker 2: Gradually you build up to have an obvious little spur shoot.

1406
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,119
But this but you have to have a really old

1407
01:19:24,199 --> 01:19:29,800
martillo cactus. And and in prue you've got near ammonia,

1408
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:33,680
and near ammonia does that like crazy?

1409
01:19:34,079 --> 01:19:38,439
Speaker 1: So but like peoti areocarpus, they never flower out of areoles.

1410
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,359
They only flower out of the center of the plant,

1411
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:42,760
of the direct that they're.

1412
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,119
Speaker 2: Flowering out of. They're flowering out of super young areals,

1413
01:19:46,159 --> 01:19:48,359
it's still the center of the plant, right right, right,

1414
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:51,520
So every cactus flower is coming out of an aerial

1415
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:54,000
but older areoles.

1416
01:19:54,119 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: Once that tissue divides and moves away from the center

1417
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:59,239
of the plant, like in of paoti, they're not they

1418
01:19:59,239 --> 01:19:59,960
don't flower anymore.

1419
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 2: And again that's that's pretty much species by species, so

1420
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:07,079
really easy to see. In mammalarias, they're very often mammalarias.

1421
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,800
The areas have to be say one or two years,

1422
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,640
three years old, get that beautiful ring that's a certain

1423
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:20,520
distance from the apex. That and that distance is one

1424
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:23,479
year's growth or two years growth. So whereas something like

1425
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:28,640
like peyote or areacarpas they grow, they flower from super

1426
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,199
young areas that are still down at the very y.

1427
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:35,199
Speaker 1: You know, I mean physiologically like if you look at

1428
01:20:35,239 --> 01:20:37,760
the I don't know. But then they can't do it again.

1429
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:40,159
Speaker 2: Mostly they can't do it again.

1430
01:20:40,239 --> 01:20:43,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to grow and create a new stem.

1431
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:47,039
Speaker 2: That and that is a yeah, And that's a good point.

1432
01:20:47,159 --> 01:20:53,920
So in almost all plants they're going to produce with

1433
01:20:54,079 --> 01:20:58,319
some exceptions, they're going to produce one flower per axi

1434
01:20:58,399 --> 01:21:01,479
ray bud, and some of produced two or three a

1435
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:04,399
little cluster like red buds with prusio cluster of flowers

1436
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:09,439
from an axioy bud. And that's because that bud is

1437
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:13,199
a little tiny short shoot and it's producing little it

1438
01:21:13,279 --> 01:21:15,840
has its own little axoy buds on it that heat

1439
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:21,560
produce a flour. And yeah, in the most cacti, once

1440
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,640
it's flowered, they can't flower again for some reason. But

1441
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:28,800
then I can Martillo cactus near ammondia, Yeah, they do

1442
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:30,039
flower and they all.

1443
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 1: The ways around it. And then you've got the cephalium

1444
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:34,600
of course, like a melo cactus and disco cactus, which

1445
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:38,199
are something that was a disocca God, damn it.

1446
01:21:39,159 --> 01:21:40,279
Speaker 2: Disco cactus.

1447
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:47,399
Speaker 1: Always I always can yeah, okay, and and so like

1448
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,119
with not to be confused with dio cactus, which is

1449
01:21:50,159 --> 01:21:51,159
another genus.

1450
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:53,680
Speaker 2: Right, total different genus. But like in the cacta that

1451
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,119
have a lateral cephalium where the cephalium runs down the side,

1452
01:21:57,239 --> 01:22:01,720
like an espostoos, so you have this zone that you'd

1453
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:07,000
expect if we're anything like mammalaria, you'd have just flowers

1454
01:22:07,039 --> 01:22:09,199
coming out of the top of the lateral cephallium.

1455
01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:10,680
Speaker 1: But in s.

1456
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 2: Postoa you'll find a flower at the top this and this,

1457
01:22:15,039 --> 01:22:17,479
this latter of sophallium can be like two or three

1458
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,159
or four feet long, a big long stretch.

1459
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:22,359
Speaker 1: Of yeah, just like it's hilarious. Looks like a beaver

1460
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:23,640
pelt on the side of a canic.

1461
01:22:24,079 --> 01:22:26,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the only part that can flower. All

1462
01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:31,159
the rest of the stem, same age can't flower. And

1463
01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:33,800
so you'll see it an s postoa that has a

1464
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:35,600
flower at the top and a flower at the bottom,

1465
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:39,560
of flower of the middle, fruit at the top, a

1466
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:44,479
flower at the bottom. So so you got some young areos,

1467
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:47,880
you've got some old areoles flowering at different ages.

1468
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 1: What are they doing? Then they've just got so many

1469
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:52,800
buds stacked up in that who knows?

1470
01:22:53,239 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 2: Who knows?

1471
01:22:53,880 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: That's crazy. Nobody's researched, and it's yeah, wow, okay, so

1472
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:03,000
all right, well, moving back to roots. This is and

1473
01:23:03,119 --> 01:23:05,720
this is why I think what blows people's minds, if

1474
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:08,159
they don't already know it is that most of the

1475
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,239
absorption of water and nutrient instead of root is occurring

1476
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,800
in like the tips where the root hairs are, right,

1477
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:18,520
But the root hairs are ephemeral too. They die after

1478
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:21,600
a certain amount of time, and then that root is

1479
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,039
no longer where they've died, that root is no longer

1480
01:23:24,119 --> 01:23:28,479
absorbing anything. It's just it's just the conduit. It's just

1481
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:33,520
the plumbing. And so so most of the most of

1482
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,399
the root, like if you dig up a bush or something.

1483
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:37,840
Is why it doesn't work when people are like, I

1484
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:39,960
want to move a plant. Most of the root when

1485
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,119
you dig it up, you're cutting off all the Yeah,

1486
01:23:43,399 --> 01:23:45,760
you're cutting off the part unless you're getting a giant

1487
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:47,600
root ball, you're cutting off the part that's doing all

1488
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:51,560
the absorbing and nutrient uptake. And you might have this

1489
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:53,560
big root ball, but if it doesn't have root hairs

1490
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,359
on it, if it's all like the older root.

1491
01:23:55,239 --> 01:23:56,600
Speaker 2: There's no absorption whatsoever.

1492
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:59,279
Speaker 1: There's no absorption, and so that thing's just gonna die

1493
01:23:59,359 --> 01:23:59,800
of thirst.

1494
01:24:00,359 --> 01:24:04,279
Speaker 2: So that's why you always transplant. If you're digging up

1495
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,880
a bush or a tree, you always do that in

1496
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,039
winter when there's when the planet is leafless and this

1497
01:24:11,239 --> 01:24:15,119
has no transpiration, is not pulling on waters, not losing

1498
01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:18,880
water from leaves. Yeah, and you sit there and again,

1499
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,159
like I mentioned, it's so easy to see what the

1500
01:24:22,239 --> 01:24:24,119
shoes are doing, but we don't know really what roots

1501
01:24:24,119 --> 01:24:26,960
are doing. So you you transplant your tree in winter,

1502
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:30,680
and it looks like the planet is just sitting there.

1503
01:24:31,399 --> 01:24:35,079
But soil is usually going to be warmer than air

1504
01:24:35,199 --> 01:24:41,520
in winter, and so the roots might not be mostly

1505
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:44,039
are not going to be dormant, and so they're going

1506
01:24:44,119 --> 01:24:47,199
to be healing those cuts you've made when you dug

1507
01:24:47,279 --> 01:24:51,319
the thing up and generating new adventitious root tips or

1508
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:55,159
or lateral roots are going to beat.

1509
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:58,119
Speaker 1: Unless you're in a really high latitude spot like Chicago

1510
01:24:58,239 --> 01:24:59,279
in February or something.

1511
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:03,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well even then, you know, even then you

1512
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,520
probably the the top few inches are going to be frozen, but.

1513
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,159
Speaker 1: Especially with climate change and that doesn't even get that

1514
01:25:09,279 --> 01:25:11,000
cold and Chicago on the winters anymore.

1515
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:14,199
Speaker 2: But you know, in most places the roots are going

1516
01:25:14,279 --> 01:25:16,439
to be active, and when maybe slowly active, but it

1517
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:21,399
be active. So by the time spring has come after

1518
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:25,479
you've transplanted your plant, then then you've got some.

1519
01:25:26,079 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 1: They've actually rowing. The roots are probably growing using stored energy.

1520
01:25:30,319 --> 01:25:33,119
Speaker 2: So you're getting a bunch of regenerated root tips and

1521
01:25:33,359 --> 01:25:35,119
root hairs and stuff like that.

1522
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:38,039
Speaker 1: And if you have to transplant and the death of

1523
01:25:38,119 --> 01:25:40,600
summer you gotta remove, it's not going to work well.

1524
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,359
It won't work in most cases. But you've got to

1525
01:25:43,399 --> 01:25:44,880
get a lot of the root all and then also

1526
01:25:45,119 --> 01:25:49,640
cut the shoots, reduce the shoots in that case. And

1527
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:51,920
then but then you're just relying on dormant buds in

1528
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:53,199
the bottom parts of the stem.

1529
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 2: So you're going to have a really bizarre looking plant

1530
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:55,920
when you're.

1531
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,159
Speaker 1: It's still gonna there's a chance that may not wak,

1532
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:01,359
so you're still gonna be losing moisture through those cut

1533
01:26:02,319 --> 01:26:03,600
ends of the shoots.

1534
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, long story short is, don't ever transplant a

1535
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,039
root or a bush in the summer. It's just going

1536
01:26:10,119 --> 01:26:10,399
to work.

1537
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, especially when it's hot as the.

1538
01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:16,279
Speaker 2: Thing, and it's it's so easy to think of, well,

1539
01:26:16,319 --> 01:26:20,600
you know, you're transplanting this thing in the winter. No leaves,

1540
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:26,920
they can't full of synthesize. But but plants mostly are

1541
01:26:27,159 --> 01:26:31,279
full of starch you've got and they can. They can.

1542
01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:38,359
They can regenerate buds, they can regenerate new leaves grow,

1543
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:43,319
they've got some storage starch and it's and so like

1544
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:46,920
in my garden, I'm always trying to kill hackberry seedlings

1545
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:50,600
because they elm seeds. They German German, and I crazy

1546
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:52,720
as well cut them off at root level.

1547
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 1: They're wonderful natives, but they could be aggressive, right, Yeah.

1548
01:26:56,079 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, and so there's a little bit of a root,

1549
01:27:01,239 --> 01:27:04,800
it's gone enough storage storage to get a butt active

1550
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:07,199
and stand a butt up for this oil and start

1551
01:27:07,279 --> 01:27:09,279
making new leaves and yeah.

1552
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:16,079
Speaker 1: So that's hilarious. Yeah, man, it's crazy the types of

1553
01:27:16,199 --> 01:27:20,399
things that we don't think about. Yeah, that I'm gonna

1554
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:22,560
move plants thing always drives me nuts. It's like, oh,

1555
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:25,600
you just move it. It's like, man, you can't. It

1556
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:26,159
doesn't work.

1557
01:27:26,239 --> 01:27:29,199
Speaker 2: Like like coming here, I saw a truck driving down

1558
01:27:29,199 --> 01:27:30,960
the road, you know, real borrow and all the all

1559
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:36,000
the gardening stuff and a bunch of plants in the

1560
01:27:36,079 --> 01:27:39,960
back of a pickup leaves driving down the road at

1561
01:27:40,079 --> 01:27:43,880
seventy miles an hour, and the leaves are just you know,

1562
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,560
it's Texas that's hotter than heck, and.

1563
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,199
Speaker 1: Well, especially with it when it's dry, it's just soaking

1564
01:27:49,239 --> 01:27:49,800
those plants.

1565
01:27:50,119 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 2: Those plants are almost certainly dead by now. Yeah, So

1566
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:54,239
it's it's just crazy to.

1567
01:27:54,239 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 1: See maybe cover them with something if you can, like

1568
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,439
mitigate because the humidity loss especially. That's anothering people don't

1569
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:02,960
think about, is how much humidity affects plants, Like the

1570
01:28:03,039 --> 01:28:05,319
humidity is really important. If you're trying to grow plants

1571
01:28:05,359 --> 01:28:07,359
inside in Chicago in a winter when the air is

1572
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,720
exceptionally dry because it's so cold outside, you bring that

1573
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:13,800
air inside heat it up. War amer can hold a

1574
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:20,319
lot more moisture. You know, it's the capacity the relative humidity. Yeah,

1575
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,159
and so that's you know, plant it's so easy to

1576
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:26,359
kill shit growing in indoors and really cold climates. But also,

1577
01:28:27,159 --> 01:28:29,520
I mean, I see that being on one hundredth meridian

1578
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,119
here in Texas, and I talk about this all the time.

1579
01:28:32,119 --> 01:28:34,079
I probably don't emphasize that as much as I should.

1580
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,319
But West Texas and South Texas are completely different. You

1581
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,479
get the same so many of the same plant species

1582
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:44,279
growing in both places, but with different ecotypes in South

1583
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:47,039
Texas where it's more humid, in West Texas, where it's

1584
01:28:47,079 --> 01:28:50,159
more arid. And it's not just the aridity, but it's

1585
01:28:50,239 --> 01:28:53,800
how the aridity affects the nighttime temperature too. You get

1586
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:56,720
huge temperature swings. In West Texas, it'll be ninety during

1587
01:28:56,760 --> 01:28:59,319
the day, it'll cool down to fifty eight at night.

1588
01:29:00,119 --> 01:29:02,960
Never happens. In South Texas it'll be one hundred degrees

1589
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:05,600
ninety five degrees during the day cool now to maybe

1590
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:09,159
seventy nine at night. So I mean, how does that

1591
01:29:09,239 --> 01:29:12,079
affect plant metabolism? How does that affect I mean there's

1592
01:29:12,119 --> 01:29:16,640
so that humidity holds so much warmth. Yeah, and it's

1593
01:29:17,199 --> 01:29:20,319
shipped down there, grows so fast compared to here. I mean,

1594
01:29:20,359 --> 01:29:23,000
I killed my lawn. I have like a forest within

1595
01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:25,800
two years, you know, and the stuff up here, you

1596
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:27,960
kill the lawn, it takes two years. You've got shit

1597
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,479
that's waist high if that. You know, it's just the

1598
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,319
much more arid climate. And you see it in the

1599
01:29:32,359 --> 01:29:35,439
plants too. The ego types in West Texas have thinner leaves,

1600
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:35,920
et cetera.

1601
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 2: And just watering is not necessarily enough to make up

1602
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:41,600
for that atmospheric community.

1603
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:45,760
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not for the lack of atmospheric community.

1604
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the lack of atmospheric commidity here. One of my

1605
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:54,600
favorite cacti is Perscia, the cacti that look like ordinate

1606
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:59,640
trees with big leaves and stems, and you can grow

1607
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:03,319
those except for the winter cold in Austin you can.

1608
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:07,039
Otherwise they do fine, they grow and everything. You can't

1609
01:30:07,199 --> 01:30:11,640
grow them at all in Phoenix that you can water

1610
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,520
them and water them and water them, and they just

1611
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:15,600
don't make enough.

1612
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:20,159
Speaker 1: There's shoots, it's just being pulled out so quick.

1613
01:30:21,239 --> 01:30:25,000
Speaker 2: It's pulling. It's big. That dryer pulls the water out

1614
01:30:25,039 --> 01:30:28,439
of the leaves faster than the shoots can conduct water.

1615
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:31,039
Even if they have water in the roots, then the

1616
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:33,880
shoots can conduct water to them. But if you've got

1617
01:30:34,399 --> 01:30:36,960
in an area with higher humidity, then you just find

1618
01:30:37,039 --> 01:30:40,079
that that the leaves are not losing water as much.

1619
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:44,600
Speaker 1: And even just I mean just just environmental plasticity or

1620
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:48,239
you know in a plant, you'll see you know, if

1621
01:30:48,239 --> 01:30:51,279
you grow it in a dry climate, the same individual,

1622
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:53,359
if you grow at any more human climate, might produce

1623
01:30:53,399 --> 01:30:55,720
big leaves. But you grow in a drier climate and

1624
01:30:56,079 --> 01:30:58,920
the leaves don't get that big, and the leaves just

1625
01:30:59,119 --> 01:31:01,279
only get And that's not an ecotype thing, that's just

1626
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:02,960
you know, plasticity.

1627
01:31:03,079 --> 01:31:04,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, response to stress.

1628
01:31:04,199 --> 01:31:07,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, this response to this environment. It's just dependent on environment.

1629
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,039
I've seen that same thing. I remember I was really

1630
01:31:10,079 --> 01:31:14,279
obsessed with the medicine coil, which is love is a

1631
01:31:14,359 --> 01:31:17,399
humid plant. It's a humid plant, you know, grows all

1632
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:21,439
the flood zones. Yeah, the Don Redwood, and I was

1633
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,039
trying to grow them in Oakland like fifteen years. I

1634
01:31:24,159 --> 01:31:28,039
just got obsessed, which is Oakland's not that hot, it's

1635
01:31:28,199 --> 01:31:32,319
like coastal California, but it's super dry. In the summer.

1636
01:31:32,359 --> 01:31:36,479
You get six months of just really arid and they

1637
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:39,119
just I water them every day and they still just

1638
01:31:39,199 --> 01:31:41,199
weren't growing that fast and looked like shit. I did

1639
01:31:41,239 --> 01:31:44,079
it with American chestnuts out there too, and once you

1640
01:31:44,159 --> 01:31:46,199
put it in the ground, then it's different story. They

1641
01:31:46,199 --> 01:31:47,800
can do a little bit better, but especially growing it

1642
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:50,279
in the pot, you're just watering it every day, and

1643
01:31:50,399 --> 01:31:52,600
it's just the pot loses moisture so quick and they're

1644
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:54,439
just transpiring too much.

1645
01:31:55,279 --> 01:31:59,520
Speaker 2: One of my favorite plants is monkey Puzzle around Carria. Yeah,

1646
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:05,439
I'll carry bid Willie and uh I would. I would

1647
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,279
just love to be able to grow that. But they're

1648
01:32:08,319 --> 01:32:11,159
like the downward where they have got to have fog

1649
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:14,840
and mist and humid air and cool air, and.

1650
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:17,920
Speaker 1: They've got at least thicker leaves though, and they've got

1651
01:32:18,119 --> 01:32:21,399
more like sclerophyll type leaves very much, very much much

1652
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:24,880
more cuticle probably in wax, yeah, a little bit more

1653
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:27,760
resistant to drying up. Those are great trees, but they're

1654
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:29,000
so cool they get I think.

1655
01:32:29,119 --> 01:32:32,359
Speaker 2: I think if they if they were in a nursery

1656
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:34,279
and saw that they were going to be shipped to Austin,

1657
01:32:34,359 --> 01:32:37,239
they would die right there. You wouldn't have to get

1658
01:32:37,279 --> 01:32:40,199
to Austin before they'd kick the bucket. Yeah, No, they

1659
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:41,319
just don't make it.

1660
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 1: So what's going on with that then? Like why? I mean,

1661
01:32:44,039 --> 01:32:46,880
you can be supplying endless water to a plant, but

1662
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:49,479
if it evolved in a place with humidity, it's and

1663
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:51,239
then you put it in and the air is dry

1664
01:32:51,319 --> 01:32:53,359
where you're trying to grow it, is it just pulling?

1665
01:32:54,319 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 2: I think the amount of conductive capacity in the wood

1666
01:32:57,079 --> 01:33:00,600
in the asylum that it just is exceeded by how fast.

1667
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:05,159
Well that's exactly what we're talking about bundles, that you

1668
01:33:05,279 --> 01:33:08,119
have a certain amount of capacity and if you're if

1669
01:33:08,199 --> 01:33:12,439
the top is evaporating water faster than you can conduct

1670
01:33:12,479 --> 01:33:14,479
it water up to it. Even if you have plenty

1671
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:17,960
of water and the roots, you just can't do it.

1672
01:33:18,279 --> 01:33:23,760
So Yeah, I remember a class I had one time.

1673
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:27,399
So so I used to teach in Austin and I

1674
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:32,840
had a plant anatomy class with some kids from some

1675
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:36,600
students from Houston, some students from Arizona and I asked

1676
01:33:36,640 --> 01:33:39,720
the question of describe what kind of adaptations you'd find

1677
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:44,079
for a plant that's adapted to Austin and and the

1678
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:49,039
Houston kids said, well, in a desert like Austin, you

1679
01:33:49,199 --> 01:33:52,199
have to have all these xeric adaptations, and the and

1680
01:33:52,359 --> 01:33:56,560
the Arizona students said, well, in a tropical rainforest like Austin,

1681
01:33:57,359 --> 01:33:59,800
so it's own's perception.

1682
01:34:00,039 --> 01:34:02,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all relatives what they're used to.

1683
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Awesome people thought that we're just too

1684
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:08,479
humid to survive, and the Houston people that were too

1685
01:34:09,199 --> 01:34:10,119
dry to survive.

1686
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:15,720
Speaker 1: So it's cool. It's for me, it's just fascinating to

1687
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:19,079
think about. I mean, that's one of the best things

1688
01:34:19,119 --> 01:34:21,239
for me about being in Texas is you're right where

1689
01:34:21,319 --> 01:34:24,319
the continent starts to dry out and you see it

1690
01:34:24,399 --> 01:34:26,279
in all the plants. Yeah, and we're starting with the

1691
01:34:26,399 --> 01:34:29,039
Edwards Plateau. It's where you start really getting some of

1692
01:34:29,119 --> 01:34:32,640
the hairer plants and the North American continent. And then

1693
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,479
the extreme of that is like in the Mojave Desert,

1694
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,960
where it's everything's all the plants are fucking white, you know,

1695
01:34:39,159 --> 01:34:42,760
like they're so dense with hairs. Are tomicon, the bear

1696
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:47,840
poppy Salvia Fune area funeral stage just just covered in hairs. Man,

1697
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:51,760
you could see how much that dry air affects, right, And.

1698
01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 2: We were talking earady about the idea of humidity and

1699
01:34:54,000 --> 01:35:02,159
moisture and desert adaptations and so like. In you know,

1700
01:35:02,239 --> 01:35:04,319
even in the worst desert, you're going to have some

1701
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:07,960
streams that always have at least a little bit of water.

1702
01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:12,119
So so you're gonna have a plant here on the

1703
01:35:13,159 --> 01:35:17,760
hillside that is it's dry air and dry roots all

1704
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,159
the time, except after a rain and a few feet

1705
01:35:20,159 --> 01:35:24,000
away you've got a plant that has dry air and

1706
01:35:24,159 --> 01:35:29,359
its roots are in this wet stream soil, and they're

1707
01:35:29,399 --> 01:35:33,199
gonna have totally different biologies and totally different leaves and

1708
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:34,760
like cuticles and stuff like that.

1709
01:35:35,039 --> 01:35:36,960
Speaker 1: God, what is that? I can't believed forgot the name

1710
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:38,800
of it. It was one of my favorite plants. Is it?

1711
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:43,319
Yerba manza? The plant that I can't remember the genus

1712
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:45,439
name of it? Now, Jesus Christ, I haven't seen because

1713
01:35:46,279 --> 01:35:47,720
I guess you get it in West Texas, but I

1714
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:52,960
haven't seen it in so long. What is the anyway?

1715
01:35:53,039 --> 01:35:54,920
But it grows in play it grows like in the

1716
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:57,399
Mohave desert, but it occurs in seeps. You know, you

1717
01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:02,880
get Epipactis gigantea growing in Death Valley, but in seeps. Yeah,

1718
01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:05,800
the same orchid you get in ri paring areas here

1719
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:11,960
grows in Death Valley as well. Yeah, there we go. Okay,

1720
01:36:12,119 --> 01:36:15,079
come on, Animopsis californica. I can't believe I forgot that

1721
01:36:15,319 --> 01:36:20,079
it escaped me. That's weird. Okay. Well, on that note,

1722
01:36:20,159 --> 01:36:22,199
I want to I want to ask do you think

1723
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:24,880
you know, for people that grow cacti from seed and

1724
01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:26,840
they've got them in these humidity chambers and they keep

1725
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,640
them in there for six months to a year sometimes less,

1726
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:35,039
how does it affect the growth? Because cacti being cam plants,

1727
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:38,600
I would assume if it's humid all the time, they're

1728
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:42,119
keeping their stomata open, right, But at the same time,

1729
01:36:42,279 --> 01:36:45,840
the way that they photosynthesize, they've got to close their

1730
01:36:46,279 --> 01:36:48,880
you know, most of them take in stomata or open

1731
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:50,920
their so nomata at night, taking CO two at night.

1732
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:52,119
They close them during the day.

1733
01:36:53,359 --> 01:36:57,119
Speaker 2: And then you also have and so that would be

1734
01:36:57,359 --> 01:37:00,479
obligately calm where they have to do this no matter what.

1735
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,239
And then you have some plants that are facultatively CAM,

1736
01:37:04,319 --> 01:37:08,039
where if it's cool enough and if it's wist enough,

1737
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:11,720
then they won't do CAM metabolism. They can, but they won't.

1738
01:37:12,199 --> 01:37:14,239
They'll just leithers. Some are to open during the day

1739
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:21,319
and do regular C three photosynthesis. And I don't think

1740
01:37:21,359 --> 01:37:22,920
there's any way to just look at a plant and

1741
01:37:23,039 --> 01:37:27,560
guess which it is. And I don't know. It could

1742
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:29,800
be that a bunch of people have studied this, and

1743
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:34,960
maybe that most cacti are obligately CAM, but I think

1744
01:37:35,039 --> 01:37:37,880
that I think that a bunch of them, and maybe

1745
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:45,119
even especially seedlings, might be facultatively or that they only

1746
01:37:45,279 --> 01:37:51,359
survive if it's springtime, is cool enough and wet enough

1747
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:54,600
that they can grow as C three plants until they

1748
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:57,960
get to be a certain size, and then at that

1749
01:37:58,039 --> 01:38:01,199
point they'll switch to being CAM. I think I don't

1750
01:38:01,199 --> 01:38:01,760
know that for sure.

1751
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:04,359
Speaker 1: You think some cacti can just be regular old C

1752
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:08,840
three plants. I know they grow a lot faster as

1753
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:11,119
seedlings if you keep them in humidity, like when I'm

1754
01:38:11,119 --> 01:38:12,720
growing a bunch of the native cactive for the Rio

1755
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:15,720
Grand Valley. They grow, I can get them so big.

1756
01:38:16,239 --> 01:38:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, So it could

1757
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:22,720
be that this has all been investigated and is written

1758
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:23,239
up somewhere.

1759
01:38:23,439 --> 01:38:25,239
Speaker 1: When you keep that human, I mean certainly, if you've

1760
01:38:25,239 --> 01:38:28,720
got the humidity up, it's much easier for their stamata

1761
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:32,439
to be open. Yes, because they're not the atmosphere is

1762
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:34,760
not pulling as much water out of their stamata. But

1763
01:38:35,359 --> 01:38:37,159
and if they can keep their somata open, they can

1764
01:38:37,319 --> 01:38:40,079
be taking in CO two but more often than they

1765
01:38:40,119 --> 01:38:40,720
otherwise would be.

1766
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a that's a physiology. So I'm a

1767
01:38:45,319 --> 01:38:48,680
plant anatomist. You know, you can cut plants open and

1768
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:52,760
look at what's going on. And I have tremendous respect

1769
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:56,520
for a physiologists because physiologists you've got to do experiments.

1770
01:38:57,199 --> 01:39:01,279
Do they grow better? You give them this water, grow

1771
01:39:01,359 --> 01:39:03,439
them like this for months and months? Do they grow better?

1772
01:39:04,159 --> 01:39:05,880
Do this? Do that? Do that? So you have to

1773
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:08,239
do all these experiments and then interpret what's going on.

1774
01:39:08,359 --> 01:39:11,880
You can't just look and see like an anatomy. So

1775
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:18,319
physiology is a lot harder. But with stillmata, you can

1776
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:20,439
just look at those and say are they open or

1777
01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:23,560
are they closed? Or you can put a little instrument

1778
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:25,960
on there and you can detect is water vapor coming

1779
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:28,600
out of the plant or not coming out of the plant,

1780
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:30,840
So don't know if the stilla open or close. So

1781
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,479
the control of still model opening has been studied a lot,

1782
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:41,880
and as you would guess, there are a million aspects

1783
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:45,920
to the control of that. So most plants dawn, dawn,

1784
01:39:46,279 --> 01:39:48,279
light comes down, you open your stomata for your C

1785
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:54,560
three plant camplant dusk, the sun goes down, you open

1786
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:59,880
your stomata. But if it's water stressed then and the

1787
01:40:00,039 --> 01:40:03,039
plants really is suffering, then that light doesn't matter. The

1788
01:40:03,119 --> 01:40:04,319
still model will stay closed.

1789
01:40:04,399 --> 01:40:07,319
Speaker 1: But generally it's the light you would assume that it

1790
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:09,399
controls the model opening and cactive.

1791
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:13,720
Speaker 2: For instance, everything's okay, but if everything is not okay,

1792
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,439
if you're water stressed, then that light is overridden by

1793
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:21,560
other steps. And if and if that is wrong, then

1794
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:24,680
that's overridden by other things, and then that's overridden. And

1795
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:31,439
that's what it is. It is an exquisite area of physiology.

1796
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:34,079
Speaker 1: There's so many different factors that's take into account.

1797
01:40:34,079 --> 01:40:37,479
Speaker 2: I wonder, yeah, and so the so the first you know,

1798
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:43,000
the first the first reasonable assumption is yeah, light C

1799
01:40:43,199 --> 01:40:49,600
three cam stuff like C four, But that can only

1800
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:54,079
be a first assumption. But you can't you can't be

1801
01:40:54,239 --> 01:40:58,319
sure because like you get the drought varieties of cotton

1802
01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:01,600
that most cotton is just takes a huge amount of

1803
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:07,479
water because because it'll just transpire like crazy, and and

1804
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:10,960
if and we'll just die if you're not watering and

1805
01:41:11,119 --> 01:41:14,399
like crazy. But you have drought ress cotton that can

1806
01:41:14,479 --> 01:41:16,359
close this stone in the daytime.

1807
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:19,119
Speaker 1: And so they'll was that that was bread or what?

1808
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they can they can survive. They might

1809
01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:27,840
not thrive, but they can survive with less water because

1810
01:41:28,439 --> 01:41:32,359
they're not following the regular rules. Are they cam?

1811
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:33,800
Speaker 1: Are they are they doing camera?

1812
01:41:34,039 --> 01:41:36,039
Speaker 2: Don't? I don't know. I don't think so. I would

1813
01:41:36,079 --> 01:41:36,359
doubt it.

1814
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the And that's that's the other thing too

1815
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:40,760
to think about with growing some of these things, like

1816
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:43,399
for growing cacti for restoration, like if you germinate them

1817
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:46,039
in a humidity dom, how do you acclimate them to

1818
01:41:46,279 --> 01:41:49,119
lower humidity? Probably it's much easier in the Rio Gram

1819
01:41:49,239 --> 01:41:51,119
Valley where it's more humid than out here in West

1820
01:41:51,119 --> 01:41:54,840
Texas where it's exceptionally dry. But in how long, like

1821
01:41:54,960 --> 01:41:56,920
what are you doing when you're acclimating it? That's what

1822
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:00,439
I want, are you waiting for still model density to

1823
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,079
be reduced in the new growth or what?

1824
01:42:03,279 --> 01:42:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, And that is that is you know,

1825
01:42:06,119 --> 01:42:09,439
and that could probably that might be all out there

1826
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:12,640
in the in the horticultural literature, because no matter what

1827
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:16,880
you're doing, that acclamation from you know, in in a

1828
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:18,840
mis chamber and a growth chamber.

1829
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:21,680
Speaker 1: With people doing cuttings, right, or if.

1830
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 2: You're growing if you're growing orchids from tissue culture and

1831
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:30,960
you're generating a zillion little orchid plantlets from inside of

1832
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:33,920
a test tube with one hundred percent humidity, you can't

1833
01:42:34,039 --> 01:42:36,760
just plant them out so so that that.

1834
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:40,119
Speaker 1: They'll just wilt, Yeah.

1835
01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:45,239
Speaker 2: Getting them acclimated. What actually happens? I would guess that

1836
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:49,479
during acclamation there's something synthesizing a whole bunch of cuticle

1837
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:54,279
on epiderma and and wax. But but I don't know,

1838
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:54,960
I don't know.

1839
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: I don't even think about that.

1840
01:42:57,000 --> 01:42:58,159
Speaker 2: And it could be different from.

1841
01:42:58,119 --> 01:43:01,720
Speaker 1: From plant to cuticle, and free is produced in the epidermis,

1842
01:43:02,239 --> 01:43:04,479
not just at the apical maris, then that's.

1843
01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:10,640
Speaker 2: No from the epidermis. And and how long how long

1844
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:20,640
an epidermis can synthesize cuticle or wax that probably varies

1845
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:21,800
from plant to plant to plant.

1846
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and can it regenerate it if it's been and where.

1847
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:27,239
Speaker 2: That can regenerate, I don't. I don't know if any

1848
01:43:27,840 --> 01:43:32,119
plant can regenerate cuticle if you would say, strip it

1849
01:43:32,199 --> 01:43:36,279
off or you can't really dissolve it off the way

1850
01:43:36,319 --> 01:43:39,279
you dissolve wax as you like with ether or chloroform

1851
01:43:39,319 --> 01:43:41,039
or something like that, which of course is going to

1852
01:43:41,159 --> 01:43:46,079
kill your plant. But let's say you would you just

1853
01:43:46,119 --> 01:43:47,760
take a razor blate and scrape off.

1854
01:43:48,039 --> 01:43:53,279
Speaker 1: Like plandilia, like any.

1855
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:54,279
Speaker 2: And so next time I see you, I'll expect that

1856
01:43:54,319 --> 01:43:54,760
you've done that.

1857
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,720
Speaker 1: That'll be But on that plant, that's not just cutical,

1858
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,600
that's farina too, that's the And for you said varina

1859
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:04,800
is long chain fatty acids. Cuticle is I.

1860
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:08,199
Speaker 2: Think varina is wax, wax pellets, wax particles.

1861
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is, yeah, okay, but how does it

1862
01:44:11,199 --> 01:44:12,760
differ structurally from cuticle?

1863
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 2: Cuticle is usually made up of cutin, which is shorter

1864
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:28,039
chain fatty acids. But apparently, and lots of plants, what

1865
01:44:28,199 --> 01:44:29,840
we think of is the cuticle that we used to

1866
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:33,239
think of just being a pure cutan layer has pockets

1867
01:44:33,279 --> 01:44:35,800
and lens and lenses and patches of wax in it,

1868
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:42,039
so the cuticle is both cutin and wax. And then

1869
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,920
a lot of plants then after they've made their cuticle,

1870
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:50,479
go on synthesizing the the long chain fatty acids.

1871
01:44:50,159 --> 01:44:51,960
Speaker 1: They need for wax, producing more weight.

1872
01:44:52,039 --> 01:44:54,439
Speaker 2: And then that those long chain fatty acids just move

1873
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,680
right through the cuticle and cumulate onto the surface and

1874
01:44:57,960 --> 01:45:03,680
then polymerize into wax. And and in some plants, and

1875
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,960
some plants they plummerize in a nice smooth surface, and

1876
01:45:08,199 --> 01:45:12,640
other ones with different fatty acids. They'll they'll make plates,

1877
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:16,880
they'll make spirals, they'll make blobs, they'll make all kinds

1878
01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:20,800
of different needles, shapes, and and a lot of times

1879
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:26,239
the it's only the cells right around the guard cells.

1880
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,720
So either the guard cells themselves or the next cells

1881
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:36,000
out called subsidior cells, they will synthesize special waxes that

1882
01:45:36,199 --> 01:45:39,319
then will grow out the waxes plumerize into these needles

1883
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:45,279
that that over arched system model pour so carbon dioxide

1884
01:45:45,279 --> 01:45:48,159
can still get through easily because it's just needles. But

1885
01:45:48,279 --> 01:45:53,479
if you have rain or mist or dew, then those

1886
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,520
water droppers we're gonna that drop is gonna form a

1887
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:00,159
We're gonna sit on those needles and it's not going

1888
01:46:00,239 --> 01:46:03,119
to get down to the model poor and block the poor.

1889
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:08,479
So carbon dioxide, even all that water molic water droplet

1890
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:11,720
is sitting there on top of those needles over the

1891
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:14,359
sumadel poor, the carbon dioxide can get around it and

1892
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:17,560
get into the plant. Whereas if they didn't have these

1893
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:22,439
special waxes right around the this the poor, then the

1894
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:25,760
then then do or whatever it might just phone then

1895
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:28,680
film block it and you're in the Yeah, the planet

1896
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,640
would basically not suffocate, but would be cut off from

1897
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:33,640
its carbon dioxide.

1898
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so moving on from this and I'll let you go. Okay,

1899
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:39,279
I didn't even realize it's been an hour and forty

1900
01:46:39,319 --> 01:46:41,640
five minutes it's been. It doesn't feel like that.

1901
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:44,720
Speaker 2: Before we move on, So we're talking about epidermis. Let's

1902
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:47,600
go back to those those missiletoes that get inside the

1903
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:51,920
host of their plant. So you know, epidermis is such

1904
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:56,119
a crucial feature to survival and and the cuticle and

1905
01:46:56,199 --> 01:46:58,760
the waxes and stuff like that. Now, if you if

1906
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:02,079
you can strip off the the epidermis of a cactus

1907
01:47:02,279 --> 01:47:05,920
would die out in West text it would die within minutes.

1908
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:10,199
But here we have these mistletoes that are inside their

1909
01:47:10,279 --> 01:47:14,039
host plant. Don't make any epidermis, don't make any cuticle,

1910
01:47:14,159 --> 01:47:15,960
don't make any wax. Of course, they don't need it.

1911
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:20,399
They don't need to conserve water. They're in a watery plant. Yeah,

1912
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:25,399
so it's it's again the idea of something that seems

1913
01:47:25,399 --> 01:47:28,840
to be such a fundamental feature of plants, an epidermis.

1914
01:47:31,159 --> 01:47:31,680
We don't need it.

1915
01:47:32,119 --> 01:47:35,319
Speaker 1: We just a lot of aquatic plants don't produce cuticle

1916
01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:40,880
or even stomata, which is wild, right, right, they've just

1917
01:47:41,039 --> 01:47:42,760
lost it. They had it at one point, but when

1918
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:44,560
they went back into the water.

1919
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:48,479
Speaker 2: They yeah, and in most The one thing I find

1920
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:53,359
extremely bizarre is the epidermal cell. Epidermal cells are the

1921
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:58,960
most exposed to sunlight and carbon dioxide. They don't have chloroplasts.

1922
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:03,039
You know, there are some reports of microscopic, super microscopic

1923
01:48:03,319 --> 01:48:05,960
chloroplasts and a few epidermal cells. But if you just

1924
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:09,039
take a pure epidermis, it is not going to be green.

1925
01:48:09,079 --> 01:48:12,239
You look out of the microscope, you see chloroplasts all

1926
01:48:12,239 --> 01:48:16,239
over the place, and so all the photosynthesis is done

1927
01:48:16,359 --> 01:48:19,760
deeper inside the tissue and the prankima. Yeah, and the

1928
01:48:19,920 --> 01:48:23,560
cortex with a leaf mesa phil It's like, why on earth,

1929
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:26,600
what's what's the advantage of that that that you're epidermis

1930
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:30,800
is not for synthetic. But when you get into the water,

1931
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:35,680
plants that live submerged, their epidermis very often has.

1932
01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Chloroplasts and show.

1933
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:44,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so something that we expect to be a fundamental

1934
01:48:44,279 --> 01:48:47,399
aspect of epidermis not in water.

1935
01:48:47,479 --> 01:48:52,000
Speaker 1: Filmy ferns are weird too. Filmy ferns are really hemenophylesi.

1936
01:48:52,159 --> 01:48:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well when filmly ferms are so strange because

1937
01:48:56,680 --> 01:48:59,760
very often between the where you have a vein and

1938
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:02,760
a only fern leaf, you have an upper epidermis and

1939
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:06,880
lower epidermis and some mesophyl cells on your zion flown.

1940
01:49:07,600 --> 01:49:12,680
But between the veins there's often just one layer of cells.

1941
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,640
And I don't know if that's anybody's figure out whether

1942
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:19,560
that's a layer of epidermis or music field.

1943
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, that one layer of cells, does it have chloroplasm?

1944
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:25,079
Is it doing any photo setting?

1945
01:49:25,119 --> 01:49:25,399
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1946
01:49:25,479 --> 01:49:27,239
Speaker 1: They're always in really humid places.

1947
01:49:27,359 --> 01:49:30,359
Speaker 2: I mean they have they have super humidity. They die

1948
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:31,920
instantly in dry air.

1949
01:49:32,800 --> 01:49:37,159
Speaker 1: Okay, so Okay, let's let's talk about because this is

1950
01:49:37,199 --> 01:49:42,159
a wild thing. So plasmo desmata, which are essential, right essential,

1951
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:46,760
but they're also what connect every cell and a plant

1952
01:49:47,199 --> 01:49:50,920
that's alive to every other cell. So you've got the

1953
01:49:51,039 --> 01:49:55,079
cell wall, you know, and like parentma colma, only a

1954
01:49:55,119 --> 01:50:01,000
primary cell wall sclaringkima secondary cell wall composed leg. But

1955
01:50:02,039 --> 01:50:03,359
you get the cell wall, and then you've got the

1956
01:50:03,479 --> 01:50:07,119
cell membrane beneath that. And like animals of course don't

1957
01:50:07,159 --> 01:50:09,239
have a cell wall. There's no cell wall. It's just

1958
01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:13,399
just the cells just have a membrane. What the membrane

1959
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:14,840
Like when you were when we were talking about like

1960
01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:17,600
siguar was melting and Phoenix because it's too hot. The

1961
01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:22,279
cell membrane is a lipid molecule in LA, the layer

1962
01:50:22,319 --> 01:50:25,199
of lipid moleus. And you were making a comparison to well,

1963
01:50:25,239 --> 01:50:28,119
how does it like butter behave at cold temperatures versus

1964
01:50:28,199 --> 01:50:30,920
hot temperatures? And so what happens at hunt one hundred

1965
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:33,079
and thirty degrees? You've got a fucking saguaro, you know,

1966
01:50:33,279 --> 01:50:36,720
planted in a mall parking lot. Yeah, and Phoenix, it's

1967
01:50:37,039 --> 01:50:39,319
it's probably not the cell wall which is composed of

1968
01:50:39,439 --> 01:50:43,560
cellulose that the primary cell well that is being affected

1969
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:45,159
by those temperatures. It's the membrane.

1970
01:50:45,279 --> 01:50:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So a crucial thing that we were talking

1971
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:52,960
about earlier that that the membranes that the cell membrane

1972
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:56,039
that surrounds a cell, or the internal membrane like the

1973
01:50:56,239 --> 01:50:59,640
membrane around the nucleus, or the membrane of the mitochondria chloroplasts.

1974
01:51:00,399 --> 01:51:05,479
Those are those membranes are a or two layers of

1975
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:09,560
lipids that on one end one end of each lipid

1976
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:14,239
molecule is is kind of usually a phosphate group that

1977
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:18,239
is that makes it attract water, and the rest of

1978
01:51:18,279 --> 01:51:21,880
the molecules is a lipid, so it repels water. And

1979
01:51:22,000 --> 01:51:25,359
so if you mix those together in water and then

1980
01:51:25,399 --> 01:51:33,319
shake it up, then all the the the hydrophobic parts

1981
01:51:34,199 --> 01:51:39,079
are going to can avoid water if they associate with

1982
01:51:39,319 --> 01:51:44,199
other hydrophobic parts of other lipid molecules, and so and

1983
01:51:44,359 --> 01:51:48,319
the and the the phosphate ants can associate with water.

1984
01:51:48,359 --> 01:51:51,680
So you get these automatically form these these two layered membranes,

1985
01:51:52,359 --> 01:52:00,600
and inside these membranes you have a lot of proteins, enzymes, pumps, channels,

1986
01:52:01,239 --> 01:52:03,479
and those proteins have got to be able to move

1987
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:05,840
around through that memorane, not not in and out of

1988
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,239
the membrane, but just from side to side in that

1989
01:52:08,479 --> 01:52:09,079
layer of the.

1990
01:52:09,119 --> 01:52:13,960
Speaker 1: Membrane, in the membrane itself, within this trapped.

1991
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:15,800
Speaker 2: In the membrane itself. So the memorane has got to

1992
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:21,279
be fluid at least it can't be hard more than

1993
01:52:21,720 --> 01:52:23,800
if it's hard, then they then the proteins can't move

1994
01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:27,439
to where they've got to be. And so so think

1995
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:30,199
of taking certain types of lipids and you like butter

1996
01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:34,520
sticking your refrigerator and it gets hard, and you can't

1997
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:37,920
use that in a membrane of a cold area plant.

1998
01:52:38,159 --> 01:52:40,520
If you did that, then all the memories would get

1999
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:44,840
hard and the plant would die. On the hand other hand,

2000
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:49,239
you got things like olive oil, corn oil that that

2001
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:53,640
even if you get them cool, there's still lick liquid

2002
01:52:53,960 --> 01:52:57,000
and will still fluid. But then when you get them

2003
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:02,479
too hot, like phoenix one hundred and thirty degrees, then

2004
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:07,920
maybe maybe they get to be too fluid and they

2005
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:08,800
can't really.

2006
01:53:10,239 --> 01:53:12,600
Speaker 1: Serve as a membrane anymore. They're not holding anything in

2007
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:16,560
or do they dissolve into the cell or what. But

2008
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:17,800
that's probably what's happening.

2009
01:53:18,279 --> 01:53:21,159
Speaker 2: There's probably probably the there's probably the fluidity of the memories,

2010
01:53:21,199 --> 01:53:24,479
that the memories just can't maintain their integrity. And that's

2011
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,239
and that's also a big deal about when when a

2012
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:32,920
seed dries out, that such a crucial thing as you've

2013
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:35,279
got to have you know, water on one side, on

2014
01:53:35,359 --> 01:53:39,720
the two sides that the membranes keep their their orientation.

2015
01:53:40,399 --> 01:53:44,199
That when you dry a seed out, that keeping the

2016
01:53:44,279 --> 01:53:49,000
membranes from just you know, just going to heck is

2017
01:53:49,039 --> 01:53:52,159
a is a tricky deal. And then but they do it,

2018
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:56,760
and resurrection plants like Seleganella does it. They can dry

2019
01:53:56,840 --> 01:53:59,600
these things out to where how on Earth are their

2020
01:53:59,640 --> 01:54:03,520
membrane survive and then and then as you rehydrate them

2021
01:54:04,520 --> 01:54:06,680
that the membranes are still where they should be in

2022
01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:08,359
doing doing what they should.

2023
01:54:08,439 --> 01:54:10,720
Speaker 1: So that's a big So what happens to because I

2024
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:14,199
mean the obviously many like some opunthia can freeze, some

2025
01:54:14,319 --> 01:54:16,640
frankly pairs can freeze, some of the small ones, yeah,

2026
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:21,319
or potossa or human fuse or whatever. But then some

2027
01:54:22,199 --> 01:54:24,479
will just melt, like in that Texas freeze, they just

2028
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:27,079
went flasted. What's actually being affected there it's not the

2029
01:54:27,199 --> 01:54:31,239
cell wall, it's probably the membrane. Or yeah, when when.

2030
01:54:31,279 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 2: When plants are killed by freezing, a lot of times

2031
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:39,039
that's the formation of ice crystals. That you get an

2032
01:54:39,039 --> 01:54:41,800
ice crystal that the water inside the cell freezes or

2033
01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:45,640
entire they intercell, your spaces freezes, and then those crystals

2034
01:54:45,680 --> 01:54:49,319
puncture the membranes and so you gotta so a membrane

2035
01:54:49,439 --> 01:54:52,239
in a cell is just like a SOB blobal membrane

2036
01:54:52,279 --> 01:54:55,680
that has no edge. That it's that you know, once

2037
01:54:55,760 --> 01:55:00,239
you pop it, you pop it. And so so maybe

2038
01:55:00,279 --> 01:55:03,520
when an ice crystal punct just grows through a membrane,

2039
01:55:03,560 --> 01:55:06,680
it just pops the membrane until the cell dies and

2040
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:09,399
you may not know it until spring, but you know,

2041
01:55:10,119 --> 01:55:13,319
basically the cell has dyed during the middle of the winter.

2042
01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:22,880
But yeah, and a lot of the and they're prickly

2043
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:26,079
payers that often just just lay down flat on the

2044
01:55:26,119 --> 01:55:27,960
ground in the middle of winter and then the spring

2045
01:55:28,039 --> 01:55:29,319
they just perk right back up.

2046
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:33,199
Speaker 1: Well, some of those ones in northern latitudes, because there's

2047
01:55:33,199 --> 01:55:35,680
a punty that grows up in Canada, I think, well

2048
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:40,279
they turned pink. So they fill with betaline pigments which

2049
01:55:40,359 --> 01:55:43,439
has a which has a freeze protective you know, that's

2050
01:55:43,479 --> 01:55:46,560
like a protective pigment basically. But then I think they also,

2051
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:49,079
well they also get wrinkled too, so they're kind of

2052
01:55:49,079 --> 01:55:52,760
they're expelling water and then probably filling with more sugar

2053
01:55:52,840 --> 01:55:56,960
and salutes to lower the freezing point of the inside

2054
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:57,560
of their cells.

2055
01:55:57,680 --> 01:56:00,279
Speaker 2: Maybe that would make sense, I would.

2056
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:02,640
Speaker 1: I did a video on this four years ago. I

2057
01:56:03,199 --> 01:56:06,880
just forget it. I just forget. But I mean when

2058
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:08,640
you see him, you know, you see him like.

2059
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:11,359
Speaker 2: You spend your whole life, your whole life learning stuff

2060
01:56:11,479 --> 01:56:12,319
and then you forget it.

2061
01:56:12,399 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, if you're not doing you're not staying

2062
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:16,399
on top of it and going through it again every

2063
01:56:16,439 --> 01:56:19,159
six months. But uh, but I know that, Like I'll

2064
01:56:19,199 --> 01:56:21,399
point the human fusa, like that cool prickly pair that

2065
01:56:21,439 --> 01:56:24,359
grows in the sand prairies thirty miles south of Chicago.

2066
01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:27,720
You see him in winter, they're wrinkled and fucking stressed

2067
01:56:27,760 --> 01:56:31,119
and pink, and then you see them in spring or

2068
01:56:31,159 --> 01:56:32,960
summer and they're like green, and.

2069
01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:34,159
Speaker 2: It's the same and it's the same.

2070
01:56:36,279 --> 01:56:36,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2071
01:56:37,479 --> 01:56:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've just been so that by too.

2072
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 1: It's weird. Okay, So all right, we'll moving on to

2073
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:43,760
plasmo dismodel.

2074
01:56:43,840 --> 01:56:46,159
Speaker 2: This is this is the essential he's been bugging me

2075
01:56:46,199 --> 01:56:46,800
about plastic.

2076
01:56:47,119 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 1: This is all days on the connections where every cell

2077
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:53,760
and a plant is connected to every other cell, and

2078
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:54,800
animals don't do that.

2079
01:56:55,399 --> 01:56:59,960
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's and that is a yeah, that's crucial.

2080
01:57:00,039 --> 01:57:01,640
So we needed to kind of start from the beginning.

2081
01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:05,000
So an animal cell is very easy to define. You

2082
01:57:05,159 --> 01:57:08,079
have a blove of protoplasm that's surrounded by a cell

2083
01:57:08,159 --> 01:57:13,640
membrane everywhere, and you take one animal cell and push

2084
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:16,880
it up against another animal cell and there are two membranes.

2085
01:57:17,239 --> 01:57:20,640
Cell membranes come together, So when we say cell membrane,

2086
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:23,880
we're talking about the outermost membrane of it. Now you

2087
01:57:24,039 --> 01:57:28,039
have inner membranes like the membranes of the nucleus, membranes

2088
01:57:28,079 --> 01:57:30,119
of mitochondria, and.

2089
01:57:30,319 --> 01:57:31,720
Speaker 1: Get the membranes of the organelles.

2090
01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 2: So they are membranes in a cell. But when we

2091
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:39,359
say cell membrane, we're talking about the automost covering and

2092
01:57:39,439 --> 01:57:42,239
the technical term for the technical term for that is

2093
01:57:42,279 --> 01:57:45,680
plasma lemma. But that term is kind of old fashioned now.

2094
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:50,119
So it's easy to define a cell in animals that

2095
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:55,560
is a man of protoplasm surrounded by a cell membrane.

2096
01:57:56,520 --> 01:57:58,960
In plants, it's not so easy.

2097
01:57:59,279 --> 01:57:59,600
Speaker 1: So the.

2098
01:58:02,199 --> 01:58:04,880
Speaker 2: Example I like to give you take those, you know,

2099
01:58:05,479 --> 01:58:07,840
cardboard and melk cartons that are kind of shaped like

2100
01:58:07,920 --> 01:58:11,000
a plant cell, and the cardboard is cellulose like this

2101
01:58:11,119 --> 01:58:15,159
plant cell wall. And you glue some mel cartons together.

2102
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:17,399
Speaker 1: The little ones like a school lunch or something.

2103
01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:20,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you glu glue is together side by side,

2104
01:58:20,760 --> 01:58:23,000
and the glue is your is your middle amella. So

2105
01:58:23,119 --> 01:58:26,720
you really got a nice, beautiful, accurate model of plant cells.

2106
01:58:28,159 --> 01:58:31,039
But now you take that, take those and you take

2107
01:58:31,079 --> 01:58:32,399
a needle of some kind.

2108
01:58:32,239 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 1: Of and the way the littamella is what the the

2109
01:58:34,960 --> 01:58:35,720
middle of mello.

2110
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:38,439
Speaker 2: Is the glue that holds plant sells to each other.

2111
01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:41,039
Speaker 1: Well, tell everybody what it is in the yeah, I

2112
01:58:41,079 --> 01:58:43,720
mean it's it's in between the cell wall.

2113
01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so this is the amazing thing that that

2114
01:58:52,119 --> 01:58:54,760
between one plant cell and another plant cell is a

2115
01:58:54,840 --> 01:59:00,720
layer of calcium pectate. And and you're familiar with calcium

2116
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:03,680
pectate if you've ever made jam. What you're doing is

2117
01:59:03,720 --> 01:59:04,600
you're boiling the fruit.

2118
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:05,560
Speaker 1: Oh it's pectin.

2119
01:59:06,239 --> 01:59:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you're just dissolving the middle lamela. And then

2120
01:59:11,239 --> 01:59:13,760
and then when you when you make your jam, you

2121
01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:18,000
just let it. The middle that now you're pectin is

2122
01:59:18,079 --> 01:59:20,920
now diffused with all that water. But basically when you

2123
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:26,199
look at your favorite redwood trees, all those cells are

2124
01:59:26,199 --> 01:59:29,199
being held together by jam pack then by pectin.

2125
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:31,600
Speaker 1: Wow, and it works.

2126
01:59:32,319 --> 01:59:34,359
Speaker 2: It's it's strong. You'd never guess if I'm looking at

2127
01:59:34,439 --> 01:59:35,760
jam but so so.

2128
01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:39,439
Speaker 1: In this milk carton model, so each milk carton represents

2129
01:59:39,479 --> 01:59:40,960
a plant. So you get a bunch of glue together.

2130
01:59:41,039 --> 01:59:43,439
Speaker 2: The glue is the middle, the middle of that's the

2131
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:45,600
peck and that's swung them together. But now you take

2132
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:47,760
a needle and you poke a hole through the two

2133
01:59:48,600 --> 01:59:50,840
milk carton to glue together, and the other two milk

2134
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:53,560
dart and tot of glue together. And and now you

2135
01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:57,159
just take and poor paint into one of the cartons,

2136
01:59:57,399 --> 01:59:59,479
and that paint is going to flow through those holes

2137
01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:02,880
into all all the milk cartons. And then you pour

2138
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:07,279
that paint out, and that paint that remains is your

2139
02:00:07,399 --> 02:00:10,520
cell membrane. A layer inside the layer that stays inside

2140
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:13,680
is your cell membrane. And so it's you know, all

2141
02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:14,640
on the inside of.

2142
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,199
Speaker 1: The connecting the milk cartons or the plasma that is

2143
02:00:18,239 --> 02:00:18,720
not right.

2144
02:00:19,039 --> 02:00:24,359
Speaker 2: And so your plasma membrane of one cell, it goes

2145
02:00:24,520 --> 02:00:27,439
through the plasma's model these little holes into the next

2146
02:00:27,640 --> 02:00:30,600
milk carton, the next cell, and it's that layer around

2147
02:00:30,640 --> 02:00:33,760
all of those, but it goes through those plasmia's moda

2148
02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:36,479
into the next milk carton, and the next melk carton

2149
02:00:36,479 --> 02:00:39,079
and the next milk carton. They're all connected, and so

2150
02:00:39,159 --> 02:00:41,880
you have all connected connected, and techniqually you got just

2151
02:00:42,159 --> 02:00:49,159
one single plasma membrane, one single cell membrane. And so

2152
02:00:50,079 --> 02:00:53,720
by the animal definition of a cell, a plant has

2153
02:00:54,039 --> 02:00:58,239
just one single cell that every single bit of protoplasma

2154
02:00:58,239 --> 02:01:01,439
in a plant is connected to every other single bit

2155
02:01:01,479 --> 02:01:06,720
of protoplasm in in the plant. And and so it's so,

2156
02:01:07,039 --> 02:01:09,239
you know, this is one of those things that botany

2157
02:01:09,319 --> 02:01:11,840
graduate students like to get think about when they get

2158
02:01:12,359 --> 02:01:16,079
drunk on a Saturday night. The one cellars are multiple

2159
02:01:16,159 --> 02:01:18,520
cells and stuff, which is kind of a useless thing,

2160
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:23,760
but it's interesting that so when you know, you guys

2161
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:26,439
something like a furn that's making spores, it's going to

2162
02:01:26,479 --> 02:01:29,760
release the spores, and of course, now the spores of

2163
02:01:29,800 --> 02:01:32,000
course cannot be connected to the rest of the plant.

2164
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:35,920
So they've got to break down the middle lamella, and

2165
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:40,399
they have to break the plasmidasmata and the plasma membrane

2166
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:43,680
of the mother cell, and the plasmid is mada of

2167
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:47,159
the of the plasma membrane of the spores have to separate.

2168
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:51,840
And they do that now in in flowering plants where

2169
02:01:51,880 --> 02:01:55,319
the the like the like the where the egg cell

2170
02:01:55,439 --> 02:01:58,720
is being made and the or the mega well technically

2171
02:01:58,760 --> 02:02:02,600
the megaspores being made in the far distant past, that

2172
02:02:02,720 --> 02:02:06,119
megasphore would have been released when it's not released anymore,

2173
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:10,000
but the plant still breaks all the plasma's mauna as

2174
02:02:10,079 --> 02:02:13,760
if it were going to be released. And yeah, so

2175
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:17,119
it's really odd and very often when in the guard cell,

2176
02:02:17,199 --> 02:02:17,399
so that.

2177
02:02:17,560 --> 02:02:20,319
Speaker 1: That cell, that egg cell in an angiosperm is no

2178
02:02:20,479 --> 02:02:24,239
longer concted, no longer it's not part of that continuous

2179
02:02:24,279 --> 02:02:26,199
cell membrane exactly exactly.

2180
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:30,119
Speaker 2: And and in at least a bunch of plants, when

2181
02:02:30,199 --> 02:02:32,399
the when the cell that's going to become the two

2182
02:02:32,439 --> 02:02:36,399
guard cells starts to form, it breaks its plasmia's mata,

2183
02:02:36,640 --> 02:02:39,359
at least some of them, and becomes isolated from the

2184
02:02:39,399 --> 02:02:42,439
rest of the plant. Wow, And it may be that

2185
02:02:43,039 --> 02:02:47,479
that helps it have its own physiology distinct from the

2186
02:02:47,520 --> 02:02:49,199
physiology of the nearby cells.

2187
02:02:49,880 --> 02:02:52,079
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're opening and closing and it's

2188
02:02:52,119 --> 02:02:54,199
dependent on turger pressure, right, wouldn't it.

2189
02:02:54,760 --> 02:02:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

2190
02:02:55,960 --> 02:02:59,479
Speaker 1: That makes sense because there's nothing, there's nothing, there's no

2191
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,640
other barrier, right, there's no there is no barrier between

2192
02:03:02,800 --> 02:03:05,800
well in the plasmata, like between one cell and another.

2193
02:03:06,119 --> 02:03:09,439
Speaker 2: But so the plasma is mata. So we just talked

2194
02:03:09,479 --> 02:03:11,880
about you're just punching holes into the end of the walls,

2195
02:03:12,439 --> 02:03:14,920
but they're a lot more complicated than that. In in

2196
02:03:15,039 --> 02:03:18,000
a real plant, each plasma is moda this hole between

2197
02:03:18,479 --> 02:03:22,399
two adjacent cell walls. It's lined by the plasma membrane,

2198
02:03:22,439 --> 02:03:27,039
by the cell membrane, but it has a thin It

2199
02:03:27,119 --> 02:03:30,680
has a thin tube of proteins, just a protein tube

2200
02:03:32,079 --> 02:03:37,439
called the desmo tubule, and the cell membrane. A sell

2201
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:41,960
organelle called the endoplasma particulum comes to one end and

2202
02:03:42,439 --> 02:03:46,399
hooks onto the plasmadesma and on the other end and

2203
02:03:46,520 --> 02:03:50,119
the other cell some more endoplasma particulum comes on and

2204
02:03:50,199 --> 02:03:54,279
hooks onto the the other end of the plast of

2205
02:03:54,359 --> 02:03:58,239
the of the plasmadesma. So they're they're really complicated, and

2206
02:04:00,000 --> 02:04:04,680
if you microinject certain types of ions into one cell,

2207
02:04:05,359 --> 02:04:07,920
they don't necessarily automatically flow into the next one. So

2208
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:10,720
it's not just an open hole that the plasma is.

2209
02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:17,960
Mada can control what goes through them. I don't think

2210
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:20,720
there's any evidence that they can pump things through them,

2211
02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:24,000
but but they're not just open holes now, No, and

2212
02:04:24,199 --> 02:04:27,279
something like a fiber and sclank myselves, but typically die

2213
02:04:28,039 --> 02:04:32,159
when they're mature. Then at that point you still have

2214
02:04:32,199 --> 02:04:34,640
these holes in the walls, but since the cell is dead,

2215
02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:37,800
you no longer have the the plasma membrane or the

2216
02:04:37,880 --> 02:04:41,640
desma tubule or the endoplasma particulum. But we still use

2217
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:44,239
the name plasmadesma, so you have to be careful when

2218
02:04:44,239 --> 02:04:44,640
you see that.

2219
02:04:44,760 --> 02:04:48,359
Speaker 1: Term, right, So it's a little more complicated than just yeah, yeah.

2220
02:04:48,239 --> 02:04:49,520
Speaker 2: It turns out to be pretty complicable.

2221
02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:51,039
Speaker 1: What was the other thing that we were talking about

2222
02:04:51,039 --> 02:04:54,960
today and the drive down where we mentionedgend because selaginella

2223
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:56,560
are weird they do all this stuff.

2224
02:04:57,199 --> 02:04:59,600
Speaker 2: It was vessels.

2225
02:05:00,479 --> 02:05:02,319
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, they have vessels, so.

2226
02:05:02,439 --> 02:05:05,920
Speaker 2: We think of we usually think of well of engines

2227
02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:08,199
from the flowering plants is having vessels.

2228
02:05:08,039 --> 02:05:11,079
Speaker 1: So xylum tissue. We have tracheads and vessels. Trakheads are

2229
02:05:11,119 --> 02:05:14,159
generally smaller, they've got a different shaped. Vessels are bigger,

2230
02:05:14,279 --> 02:05:17,960
more efficient, the transporting water all just applies to asylum

2231
02:05:18,039 --> 02:05:18,680
for anyone listening.

2232
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and and the and the wonderful thing about

2233
02:05:22,039 --> 02:05:24,800
vessels is that they tend to be very wide, so

2234
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:28,039
they have low friction. And think about you, you're trying

2235
02:05:28,079 --> 02:05:30,239
to drink a milkshake. You're going to drink it through

2236
02:05:30,359 --> 02:05:33,520
a wide straw, not a narrow straw. But the big

2237
02:05:33,600 --> 02:05:37,399
deal is that vessel. Each cell of a vessel has

2238
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:40,279
a big hole in this and where water can go

2239
02:05:40,359 --> 02:05:45,159
from one vessel's element, yeah, perforation, So so water can

2240
02:05:45,199 --> 02:05:47,640
go from one vessel to another just by passing through

2241
02:05:47,680 --> 02:05:50,119
this hole. So there's very little friction, and so water

2242
02:05:50,199 --> 02:05:53,960
can move easily through vessels. And a lot of people

2243
02:05:54,159 --> 02:05:58,800
and vessels we usually think of as flowering plant. So yeah,

2244
02:06:00,560 --> 02:06:03,000
and and a lot of you'll hear people say, well,

2245
02:06:03,079 --> 02:06:06,760
the vessels allowed Angi sperms to adapt to all kinds

2246
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:13,000
of different conditions. But we have vessels occurred evolved independently

2247
02:06:13,039 --> 02:06:19,239
in Solaginella, and they also evolved in equisite them and

2248
02:06:19,560 --> 02:06:26,000
in uh and three conifers called uh efed will which

2249
02:06:26,079 --> 02:06:32,079
you and need them. So so vessels have evolved at

2250
02:06:32,199 --> 02:06:37,079
least four times and in three times in Solgenella and

2251
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:42,680
equisite and this need them, et cetera. It's really not

2252
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:47,880
led to any big success that they have these vessels,

2253
02:06:47,920 --> 02:06:51,119
and theoretically they can conduct water very easily, but that

2254
02:06:51,239 --> 02:06:53,000
hasn't let them take over the world.

2255
02:06:53,359 --> 02:06:56,640
Speaker 1: Like angiosperms did, right, or requires more than just updated

2256
02:06:56,720 --> 02:07:00,640
plumbing to whereas conifers just have traking. It's no condifer conference,

2257
02:07:01,119 --> 02:07:04,880
no gymnal Sperms except for the federal relatives have vessel elements,

2258
02:07:05,159 --> 02:07:09,359
right right, that's wild. Silaginella is just so bizarre. I mean,

2259
02:07:09,439 --> 02:07:13,039
it's got so many traits that it shares with angiosperms,

2260
02:07:13,079 --> 02:07:14,640
but it's totally unrelated.

2261
02:07:16,279 --> 02:07:20,439
Speaker 2: Andospory, yeah, and so the elements and so the heterosprey

2262
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:23,079
means that it makes big spories and little spores and

2263
02:07:24,319 --> 02:07:29,520
and a big deal about that is is in flowering

2264
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:33,159
plants and seed plants and all seed plants, the one

2265
02:07:33,199 --> 02:07:36,479
of the sports called the megasport is retained inside the

2266
02:07:37,319 --> 02:07:40,600
the mother cell body, and then that mothers the mother

2267
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:45,199
plant body, and then that mother plant can nourish that

2268
02:07:46,079 --> 02:07:49,159
spore and protect it and get it take taken care of.

2269
02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:53,560
And that's what's going to develop into the seed, into

2270
02:07:53,600 --> 02:07:54,479
the embryo of the seed.

2271
02:07:54,960 --> 02:07:57,800
Speaker 1: Like all the seed plants are the spores and so

2272
02:07:58,520 --> 02:07:58,720
and so.

2273
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 2: The so the cruise thing in evolving to have seeds

2274
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:05,880
is first you have to have this big this spore

2275
02:08:06,439 --> 02:08:09,800
that's retained inside the parent plant's body and the parent

2276
02:08:09,960 --> 02:08:14,039
takes care of and Selaginella has that first step. It

2277
02:08:14,159 --> 02:08:17,800
has big spies and little sports.

2278
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:19,479
Speaker 1: Instead of just being instead of just being cast out

2279
02:08:19,520 --> 02:08:21,880
like ferns do, and the.

2280
02:08:22,239 --> 02:08:27,159
Speaker 2: And the big spores that the when that sport germinates,

2281
02:08:27,319 --> 02:08:31,760
it doesn't just grow like crazy bunch of cells. It

2282
02:08:31,960 --> 02:08:36,920
stays basically inside that megaspore wall. And so it's so

2283
02:08:37,439 --> 02:08:40,159
the next step would be for the parent plant to

2284
02:08:40,319 --> 02:08:45,680
retain that megaspore and let that megaspore germinate there inside

2285
02:08:46,000 --> 02:08:49,039
inside the host plant and the mother plant and then

2286
02:08:49,600 --> 02:08:52,319
grow to be a four under a seed and at

2287
02:08:52,359 --> 02:08:55,000
that point then let it be released. So so the

2288
02:08:55,560 --> 02:08:57,840
legend of the of the nine or ten steps you

2289
02:08:57,920 --> 02:09:02,039
need to become a seed plant. So Selaganella has taken

2290
02:09:02,479 --> 02:09:05,399
lots of those steps, but it hasn't made the last

2291
02:09:05,520 --> 02:09:09,119
few steps. Whether it ever will, who knows.

2292
02:09:09,760 --> 02:09:11,960
Speaker 1: It's still pretty cool to think about it.

2293
02:09:11,960 --> 02:09:14,199
Speaker 2: And another thing about Slagenella that you probably didn't know

2294
02:09:14,359 --> 02:09:17,039
is that if you cut a if you cut a

2295
02:09:17,079 --> 02:09:19,119
cross section of it, you'd expect to be, you know,

2296
02:09:19,319 --> 02:09:25,039
this solid cortex parankama and then a vascuar bundle or

2297
02:09:25,159 --> 02:09:31,560
set of bascuar bundles, and not in Solagonella. In selaganella,

2298
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:35,239
you cut across and you have the cortex perankoma, and

2299
02:09:35,319 --> 02:09:38,760
then you have a hollow chamber. And this hollow chamber

2300
02:09:39,119 --> 02:09:42,680
that's where your zion floam were running. And there's a

2301
02:09:42,680 --> 02:09:45,319
little bit of parankama right around the xiomon flow and

2302
02:09:45,479 --> 02:09:49,319
that's supported by some little bridges, but for the most part,

2303
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:53,159
the zyomon floam run through this big empty chamber where

2304
02:09:53,159 --> 02:09:58,039
all the cells are broken down. What the hell? Why

2305
02:09:58,119 --> 02:09:58,640
do they do that?

2306
02:09:59,199 --> 02:09:59,399
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2307
02:09:59,640 --> 02:10:03,119
Speaker 2: And it's you know, I can remember reading about that. Anything. No,

2308
02:10:03,319 --> 02:10:06,760
that can't be right, and so cut one open and sure.

2309
02:10:06,640 --> 02:10:09,800
Speaker 1: Enough, I'm so curious about the ones out here in

2310
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:13,039
West Texas, like or any of the drought tolerant ones,

2311
02:10:13,119 --> 02:10:16,319
the desiccation, not drought, the desiccation tolerant ones that can

2312
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:20,079
completely dry. Okay, Crispy, I'm so curious about, you know,

2313
02:10:20,159 --> 02:10:23,840
the process of them like a spore germinating and and

2314
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:26,079
how a new plant gets established. Like I'd love to

2315
02:10:26,159 --> 02:10:29,600
see someone do that and horticulturally and just study it

2316
02:10:29,760 --> 02:10:30,720
how it you know what I mean.

2317
02:10:31,119 --> 02:10:34,560
Speaker 2: My guess is that people have studied that because it

2318
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:36,039
is such a bizarre phenomenon.

2319
02:10:36,319 --> 02:10:38,159
Speaker 1: I think that I think there's papers in it now.

2320
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:41,960
Speaker 2: So Lagenda looking to do that, and it's so Lagenda

2321
02:10:42,079 --> 02:10:45,960
is really bizarre because it's a big plant basket tissue,

2322
02:10:46,039 --> 02:10:52,000
complicated tissues. But you know, most all desert mosses do

2323
02:10:52,119 --> 02:10:57,159
the same thing that that maybe in spring every you know,

2324
02:10:57,239 --> 02:11:00,520
every spring or so, they dry out completely during the day,

2325
02:11:01,119 --> 02:11:03,479
just like Solagenala, and then you get in the evening,

2326
02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:07,000
you get dew forming and they hydrate, so in the

2327
02:11:07,079 --> 02:11:10,840
morning they're they're nice and fresh and green and happy

2328
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:14,479
and and then carrying out the photosynthesis and then in

2329
02:11:14,520 --> 02:11:16,439
the afternoon they dry up again, right right.

2330
02:11:16,479 --> 02:11:20,039
Speaker 1: But the difference in in Solaginella is the gametophyte stays

2331
02:11:20,159 --> 02:11:24,800
inside the spore. Yeah, like even in the male sport. Yeah,

2332
02:11:24,800 --> 02:11:28,960
it's yeah, fucking weird. And so then it's got to

2333
02:11:29,000 --> 02:11:34,680
produce Anthridia and arcogonia respectively. But but how does the

2334
02:11:34,760 --> 02:11:37,039
sperm get out? You know, That's what I'm curious. How

2335
02:11:37,079 --> 02:11:42,319
does the sperm get out of it emerges out of there.

2336
02:11:42,600 --> 02:11:45,279
Speaker 2: So we'll keep keep in mind that the sperm are

2337
02:11:45,359 --> 02:11:49,479
formed in anthridia, right, so right in the sport in

2338
02:11:49,600 --> 02:11:53,880
the in the microgamedifyt inside the spore the microamedifi. But

2339
02:11:53,960 --> 02:11:56,560
the anthridia are tiny, tiny things.

2340
02:11:59,079 --> 02:12:03,079
Speaker 1: So you've got to get a microspore landing next to

2341
02:12:03,159 --> 02:12:04,239
a megaspore and.

2342
02:12:05,319 --> 02:12:09,279
Speaker 2: Then growing to a microgamunify near a mega gamutify with

2343
02:12:10,319 --> 02:12:14,840
anthidia on the male plant and archigonia on the female plant.

2344
02:12:15,279 --> 02:12:18,119
So yeah, and then when you have a film of

2345
02:12:18,199 --> 02:12:22,039
water when it's raining, then the antherity breakdown release the

2346
02:12:22,039 --> 02:12:24,800
sperm cells. The sperm cells become active. They've got flagella

2347
02:12:25,279 --> 02:12:25,960
and they can swim.

2348
02:12:26,079 --> 02:12:28,880
Speaker 1: They're still mobile, yeah, swim, and.

2349
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:31,079
Speaker 2: So they can if the rain and then splashes some

2350
02:12:31,239 --> 02:12:34,399
sperm cells next to an and to an archigonium, they'll

2351
02:12:34,439 --> 02:12:37,479
swim down into the archegonium and for unfertilized the egg.

2352
02:12:37,520 --> 02:12:40,000
Speaker 1: There, but it's got to swim inside the female.

2353
02:12:41,199 --> 02:12:44,520
Speaker 2: Yes, that's crazy, but but the spore at that point

2354
02:12:44,640 --> 02:12:47,880
is broken open to the the gamaedify, the megagamedify, the

2355
02:12:47,920 --> 02:12:53,439
female gamedifyt is now visible through the broken the broken,

2356
02:12:54,119 --> 02:13:00,159
cracked spore wall, and the archigonia, the organized that the

2357
02:13:00,319 --> 02:13:04,479
organize actually make the egg are visible on the surface

2358
02:13:04,720 --> 02:13:07,680
of the communifed through that crack in the spot wall.

2359
02:13:08,039 --> 02:13:10,920
So the the range of splashes the sperm cells and

2360
02:13:10,960 --> 02:13:16,520
they swim to there. And and an important thing that

2361
02:13:16,600 --> 02:13:20,720
most people don't realize is that that swimming sperm cells,

2362
02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:23,279
sperm cells that have flagella just like our own sperm

2363
02:13:23,359 --> 02:13:29,159
cells and that can swim vigorously occur through all the

2364
02:13:29,279 --> 02:13:30,159
plants up to.

2365
02:13:31,680 --> 02:13:35,880
Speaker 1: The psychads and psycads and ginka are the only ones

2366
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:40,439
that of the gymno sperms, yeah can go I'm not sure,

2367
02:13:40,520 --> 02:13:42,239
but yeah's got motile sperm.

2368
02:13:43,359 --> 02:13:47,159
Speaker 2: But in psychads psycha each sperm cell of the psycad

2369
02:13:47,479 --> 02:13:50,640
has hundreds of flagella. They're giant and they occur in

2370
02:13:50,680 --> 02:13:51,640
these big rows.

2371
02:13:51,800 --> 02:13:54,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't look like human sperm, not at all.

2372
02:13:54,359 --> 02:13:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just they're they're a great big and have

2373
02:13:58,319 --> 02:14:00,800
very hairy with all the all the leagil on them.

2374
02:14:01,199 --> 02:14:04,640
But we have plant cells that swim all the way

2375
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:05,720
up into the seed plants.

2376
02:14:05,960 --> 02:14:10,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, god, yeah, the Kinkos man. And then you think

2377
02:14:10,159 --> 02:14:12,319
about all the stuff that's extinct that this is only

2378
02:14:12,399 --> 02:14:14,399
known from fossils. I had a paleo bonus on the

2379
02:14:14,439 --> 02:14:17,359
podcast the last year and they were talking about taking

2380
02:14:17,399 --> 02:14:20,399
c T scans to to some of these rocks so

2381
02:14:20,479 --> 02:14:24,079
they could get good three D images of these structures.

2382
02:14:24,119 --> 02:14:25,680
And he was just telling me, Yeah, we see shit

2383
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:28,479
that we just don't know. It's so bizarre compared to

2384
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:31,319
what like, we can't we know it's a plant, but

2385
02:14:31,399 --> 02:14:34,079
we can't figure out what it's doing. What's the reproduct

2386
02:14:34,119 --> 02:14:36,279
you know, what the reproductive structure is doing. What the seed?

2387
02:14:36,319 --> 02:14:38,159
You know, why does it seed look like this or

2388
02:14:39,119 --> 02:14:39,680
so nuts?

2389
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have flowering plants. And then you know

2390
02:14:44,960 --> 02:14:47,439
a couple of species of selaginal unlike a podium and

2391
02:14:47,960 --> 02:14:55,359
equisiteum and ferns, and these are the remnants of groups

2392
02:14:55,399 --> 02:14:55,880
that used.

2393
02:14:55,720 --> 02:14:59,960
Speaker 1: To be huge and comprise these major linea.

2394
02:15:00,199 --> 02:15:02,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots and lots of diversity, and we just don't

2395
02:15:02,439 --> 02:15:05,720
know what they look like, and especially so legend and

2396
02:15:06,600 --> 02:15:09,560
like William Thatt there that they're a whole different line

2397
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:12,479
of evolution from all the seed plants and ferns, and

2398
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:15,399
so they're their ancestors are big trees.

2399
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:20,760
Speaker 1: Like isoetes, that's the modern day descendant of these things

2400
02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:22,039
that the lepidodendrons.

2401
02:15:22,640 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, big leaves, huge reproductive structures.

2402
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:30,920
Speaker 1: That form the coalbads of you know, most of the

2403
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:33,560
coal bads these three hundred and twenty million year old covids.

2404
02:15:33,600 --> 02:15:36,119
And how different was the planet of look back then?

2405
02:15:36,399 --> 02:15:38,760
Speaker 2: That I would love to have, I would love to have.

2406
02:15:39,479 --> 02:15:43,840
You know, some palaeobotanists team up some really good artists

2407
02:15:43,880 --> 02:15:45,600
and try to come up with, oh my god, I

2408
02:15:45,680 --> 02:15:49,720
know we have a few reconstructions. Yeah, they look at.

2409
02:15:49,560 --> 02:15:52,880
Speaker 1: A mural in my bathroom. Yeah, a carboniferous coal swamp.

2410
02:15:53,399 --> 02:15:55,079
And then but then you think about all this shit

2411
02:15:55,119 --> 02:15:57,600
that just we haven't found yet, we'll never know exists

2412
02:15:57,600 --> 02:16:01,039
because it never got fossilized. Yeah, it's crazy, it's madden

2413
02:16:01,119 --> 02:16:02,880
to think about. It's really fun to think about.

2414
02:16:03,159 --> 02:16:05,800
Speaker 2: And you know, one time I was in the the

2415
02:16:06,039 --> 02:16:11,680
Eric Carrier forests and and uh, in Chile and Eric Carrier.

2416
02:16:12,199 --> 02:16:16,159
You know, there's worlds of worlds of branches. Yeah, being

2417
02:16:16,319 --> 02:16:21,319
real prehistoric and in that being in that forest where

2418
02:16:21,479 --> 02:16:25,800
everything nothing looked familiar, nothing looked right and compared to

2419
02:16:25,880 --> 02:16:29,399
what we know today, and and yeah, just imagine what

2420
02:16:29,680 --> 02:16:30,199
was It gave you a.

2421
02:16:30,239 --> 02:16:32,879
Speaker 1: Little taste of what it might have been like, you know, yeah,

2422
02:16:33,840 --> 02:16:35,120
three hundred million years ago.

2423
02:16:36,200 --> 02:16:38,120
Speaker 2: I think, what would it be like to be an

2424
02:16:38,440 --> 02:16:41,879
Archaeoptre's forest or these other fossil trees?

2425
02:16:42,040 --> 02:16:46,399
Speaker 1: And that's so fun to think about it. Man, Well, thanks,

2426
02:16:46,719 --> 02:16:50,200
it's two hours fifteen minutes. I could keep going, but yeah,

2427
02:16:50,600 --> 02:16:53,440
I don't know if anyone We've probably burnt out some

2428
02:16:53,559 --> 02:16:55,520
of the this is good stuff. I mean, I think

2429
02:16:56,520 --> 02:16:58,479
I think again, once you once you get a basic

2430
02:16:58,600 --> 02:17:00,799
understanding of the different tissue ties and what you know,

2431
02:17:00,920 --> 02:17:03,920
what's composing, you actually think about like a three dimensional

2432
02:17:03,959 --> 02:17:06,040
view of what you're what's going on in a plant

2433
02:17:06,079 --> 02:17:09,680
that you're looking at. It helps to start then asking

2434
02:17:09,799 --> 02:17:11,639
these questions. It gives you what you need to start

2435
02:17:11,719 --> 02:17:12,280
thinking about this.

2436
02:17:12,520 --> 02:17:14,600
Speaker 2: I think, I think a fun way to look at

2437
02:17:15,319 --> 02:17:17,680
look at it is so think if imagine you're a

2438
02:17:17,840 --> 02:17:22,000
carbon dioxide molecule, and you've just bounced into a stoma

2439
02:17:22,399 --> 02:17:26,239
in a leaf and you've been caught by chloroplastid turned

2440
02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:28,840
into a part of a sugar molecule. And how you're

2441
02:17:28,840 --> 02:17:31,840
being transported through the floam and where do you go?

2442
02:17:32,239 --> 02:17:35,319
What are you passing through? Or your or your a

2443
02:17:35,479 --> 02:17:38,079
nitrate molecule that gets absorbed by a root and you're

2444
02:17:38,120 --> 02:17:41,559
going up through the through the asylum and some enzyme

2445
02:17:41,639 --> 02:17:43,719
catches you and makes you into a new amino acid

2446
02:17:43,760 --> 02:17:47,440
and part of a protein protein. What cells do you

2447
02:17:47,520 --> 02:17:49,200
go through? And what walls do you go through? What

2448
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:53,000
plasma is might And it's it's fun to just you know,

2449
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:55,399
next time, you're next time you just don't want to

2450
02:17:55,399 --> 02:17:58,000
get out of bed, you're you know, Saturday of alarm's

2451
02:17:58,040 --> 02:17:59,120
gone off, you don't want to get out of But

2452
02:17:59,280 --> 02:18:01,760
just today, what would it look like if I was

2453
02:18:01,799 --> 02:18:02,440
a molecule?

2454
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:05,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, a carbon dioxide molecule. You could end up in

2455
02:18:05,520 --> 02:18:08,600
a dandelion. You're put back into the carbon cycle really quickly.

2456
02:18:08,600 --> 02:18:10,200
You could end up in a fucking redwood tree and

2457
02:18:10,239 --> 02:18:12,319
you're entombed for twenty five hundred years.

2458
02:18:12,440 --> 02:18:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you end up in a cold dead yeah,

2459
02:18:14,760 --> 02:18:16,120
And you're there for millions of years.

2460
02:18:16,280 --> 02:18:22,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's fucking crazy. I didn't man about that.

2461
02:18:23,680 --> 02:18:26,760
Speaker 2: I spent hours think you've been on Saturday instead of

2462
02:18:27,000 --> 02:18:28,520
instead of getting up and doing my work.

2463
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:31,680
Speaker 1: Well, Jim, thanks a lot, man, I appreciate it. Right,

2464
02:18:31,760 --> 02:18:33,280
everybody else, have a good rest of the day. Go

2465
02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:34,000
fucking somebody,