1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,359 Speaker 5: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 3: We're joined today by Tinhoe, the Sacramento District attorney and 17 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,240 author of The People Versus the Golden State Killer. Tin 18 00:00:55,359 --> 00:00:56,759 thank you for joining us today. 19 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,479 Speaker 6: It's truly an order to be on your podcast and 20 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,799 to really take this opportunity to speak with you about 21 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:05,200 my new book, The People Versus the Goldi State Killer. 22 00:01:06,359 --> 00:01:09,599 Speaker 3: This book is absolutely amazing and we want to make 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,920 sure that we get into the circumstances behind it and 24 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,120 your connection to it. So start by telling our listeners 25 00:01:17,159 --> 00:01:19,799 what your connection is to the Golden State Killer case. 26 00:01:20,519 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 6: Currently, I'm the elected District Attorney of Sacramento County, which 27 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:26,840 is the capitol in California. We have about one hundred 28 00:01:26,879 --> 00:01:29,920 and ninety prosecutors nearly five hundred employees. Were the second 29 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,400 largest DA's office in northern California. But the fact of 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,439 the matter is when we identified, arrested, and prosecuted Joseph DeAngelo, 31 00:01:38,519 --> 00:01:41,359 the Golden State Culler, the original Knights Socker, the East 32 00:01:41,359 --> 00:01:44,840 Air rapist, the Viceitia Ransacker, it was here in Sacramento 33 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,879 and I was the lead prosecutor, working with an amazing 34 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:51,120 team from six other different DA's offices. And now, after 35 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:54,359 five years, I've decided to write a true crime memoir 36 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,920 of the People Versus the Goldis State Killer, to talk 37 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:01,159 about the investigation, the capture, and the prosecution of the 38 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:01,959 go to State killer. 39 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: For the longest time, you weren't able to say much 40 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,639 publicly beyond the press conferences and those sorts of things. 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,400 Do you feel like, now that several years have gone by, 42 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,599 DeAngelo's prosecuted. He's in jail, He's not going anywhere. Does 43 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,240 that free you up to speak more frankly about the 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:22,719 case and the backstory? 45 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 6: Absolutely? And he is now serving time multiple life without 46 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,439 the possibility terms in prison, he'll never see the light 47 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:32,800 of day. I get updates on him quite a bit, 48 00:02:33,159 --> 00:02:35,800 and I've really decided to sit down and talk to 49 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,080 some of the survivors and to really shift the focus 50 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,360 of the true crime genre away from the criminal and 51 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,439 the crimes and focus it on the generation of law 52 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,159 enforcement that never gave up the pursuit of justice in 53 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,520 finding him, and the prosecutors who prosecuted him, but most 54 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:55,719 of all, really centering at the heart and soul the 55 00:02:55,759 --> 00:02:59,159 survivors and the victims, providing them a voice to turn 56 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,800 tragedy into tryum, pain into power. 57 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: And we are highly supportive of that because we believe 58 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:09,120 that is the heart of the true crime space. It's 59 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:12,000 the people who have survived and thrived and then telling 60 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,879 the stories of the victims who no longer have the 61 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,840 ability to speak for themselves. So we applaud you for that. 62 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:19,759 You've done a marvelous job with this book. 63 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 6: Thank you. 64 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: When did you first learn about Joseph DiAngelo's crimes. As 65 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:28,479 you said a minute ago, He's known by many names 66 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:32,400 of Isilia, Ransacker, the East Area rapist, the original nightstalker. 67 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:36,879 Were you familiar with these cases before you heard, Hey, 68 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:38,680 we've got Joe DiAngelo in custody. 69 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 6: Oh. I described it in the book. In the early 70 00:03:41,439 --> 00:03:44,080 part of the book. I was a young prosecutor assigned 71 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,080 to the homicide unit here at the Sacramento Dage Office, 72 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,479 and I was proscuting my very first homicide. It was 73 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,800 the case of Rajit Singh, who was found half naked 74 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:55,000 behind a brick wall in the drizzling rain on a 75 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,479 New Year's Day. And it was back in twenty twelve. 76 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,599 I'm going out to the crime scene with the detective 77 00:03:59,719 --> 00:04:02,000 and another prosecutor in my office who grew up in 78 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,319 Ranchel Krodova. And along the way we saw I saw 79 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:09,080 all these businesses, all these homes with bars on the 80 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,919 window and the door, and I'm like, what's going on here? 81 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,319 And that's when they started talking about the ear. And 82 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,800 I said the ear, who's the ear? And then they 83 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,480 said that's the East Area rapist. So they told me 84 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,800 about the gruesome nature of his crimes, how he separated 85 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,959 the husband and wife and placed bed sheets on the 86 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,399 husband and then engage in committee these sadistic crimes over 87 00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:30,480 and over again, and I had never heard of them. 88 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:33,839 It was then six years before we caught him. I 89 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,319 said to both the detective and the other prosecutor, he's 90 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:37,959 a friend of mine. I said, Look, I've never asked 91 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,879 for a case in my life. I just take whatever 92 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:42,240 case is dropped off on my desk. But if they 93 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,199 ever catch this guy, I'm going to make an exception 94 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,040 and I'm going to ask for the case. And fast 95 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:50,319 forward six years later, we found them through the use 96 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,920 of genetic genealogy, and the rest is history. And I 97 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,040 talked about how I ended up asking for the case, 98 00:04:55,079 --> 00:04:58,480 getting assigned for the case, and most of all, meeting 99 00:04:58,600 --> 00:04:59,759 all the survivors. 100 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 2: The work that you do as a prosecutor is something 101 00:05:02,759 --> 00:05:05,240 that a lot of us we see on television, but 102 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,560 I'm sure we get to a streamlined and simplified version 103 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:11,560 of what really goes on. When you say you asked 104 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,279 for the case, Who are you asking and who decides 105 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:19,759 assigning an important case like this to a particular prosecutor. 106 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,639 How does that work in our office? 107 00:05:21,639 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 6: What happens is you have a supervisor of the homicide team, 108 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,199 and essentially they review all the cases that come in 109 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,759 that are homicides, they make the charging decision, and they 110 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,040 assigned it out. And so my supervisor at the time 111 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,079 was named Rod. But a case of this magnitude, of 112 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,079 this scope, of this importance, it's the decision on who 113 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,560 to sign that case is going to be up to 114 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,759 the elected DA And at the time I was a 115 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:45,879 homicide prosecutor. I waited about a week or so, nobody 116 00:05:45,879 --> 00:05:48,399 had been assigned the case. I simply walked into my 117 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,759 supervisor's office and I said, look, Rod, if you're on 118 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,480 Sealed Team six and they told you they found Osama 119 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:57,920 bin Laden in Pakistan, you know what you say? And 120 00:05:57,959 --> 00:05:59,480 he looked at me and he had this big grin 121 00:05:59,519 --> 00:06:02,240 on his face and he said what. I leaned in 122 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:05,360 and I tapped on the folder, the file folder, and 123 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:08,360 I said, you asked to be on that helicopter ride 124 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:11,920 into Pakistan, Roder, I'm asking to be on the helicopter 125 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,600 ride on this case. And I walked out, didn't say 126 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,920 another word. Two hours later, I was assigned to prosecute 127 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,639 the biggest case of my career. And it's been an 128 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,639 honor to be assigned that case. We had three million 129 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:28,920 pages of documents, and that doesn't even include, for example, 130 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,639 all the other videotape forensic evidence from all the other counties, 131 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,600 and so it was such a ginormous scope in terms 132 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,959 of prosecuting it. It was a lot to take in. 133 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,360 And the first thing I did was I read Michelle 134 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:42,199 mcnamary's book, I'll be Gotten in the Dark. 135 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 2: Yes, she was a friend of ours and we're very 136 00:06:44,439 --> 00:06:47,759 sorry about her not being there at the end of 137 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:53,279 this long, incredible, multi year journey. And she actually is 138 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,279 the person that coined this expression, the Golden State Killer. 139 00:06:56,879 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 6: I had so much wish after so I read that 140 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,199 book because I wanted to get a full glimpse, sixty 141 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,199 thousand foot level of the cases. And I got to 142 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,199 tell you, when I read her book, I couldn't sleep 143 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,480 for several nights. It invaded my dreams and my nightmares. 144 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:14,519 But I also sense Michelle's passion for the case. And 145 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,360 then I got to know Paul Holmes, who wrote his 146 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:20,000 book as well on the Golden State Killer case. We 147 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,040 bonded over a cocktail or two and Santa Barbara talking 148 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:25,800 about his part in it. But when he wrote his book, 149 00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:29,560 it's about the investigation and how we zeroed in on him. 150 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:31,720 And so I look at my book as the third 151 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:35,639 in the trilogy, right, that covers the investigation, the capture, 152 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,399 and the prosecution. But it really highlights some of the 153 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:41,519 great things that Michelle brought to the forefront, that Paul 154 00:07:41,959 --> 00:07:44,639 carried on and that I'm trying to bring together. 155 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 3: I think that's fantastic. It's a great way to look 156 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,160 at it. At what point in the process did you 157 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:56,519 actually start meeting with the survivors of the Golden Stake killer, So, 158 00:07:56,839 --> 00:08:01,959 like Jane Carson Sandler, Debbie Domingo, anyone who ultimately lived, 159 00:08:02,319 --> 00:08:04,240 when did you start meeting with them and what were 160 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,879 those meetings like for you? 161 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 6: Well, the way we divided the cases up, he committed 162 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,279 his crimes in Sacramento, in the Bay Area, at Contracosta 163 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,199 vy Salia, Irvine. In terms of Orange County Venturist Santa Barbara, 164 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,720 and so the Orange County prosecutors were responsible for their cases. 165 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,600 We in Sacramento prosecuted the Contra Costa and the Santa 166 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,439 Barbara cases. The very first time I met any of 167 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:31,959 the survivors was in court I was making an argument 168 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,879 in court to be able to go in and take 169 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,000 some DNA sample from his mouth, to be able to 170 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,360 take photographs of his genitalia, et cetera. And so that 171 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:44,440 was the very first time that I had met several 172 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,200 of the victims. And I'll never forget it. We walked 173 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,960 into the courtroom and we got to go in there 174 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,360 ahead of time. The victims were staged in another courtroom 175 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,360 and the advocates, the victim advocates, brought them over before 176 00:08:55,399 --> 00:08:58,960 we opened the door to the public. Now, remember, a short, 177 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,039 gray haired woman and these thick round glasses came up 178 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,240 to me. And I had read her police report. I 179 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,799 had seen the photographs of when she was twenty three 180 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,159 years old and assaulted in Sacramento. It was Phyllis Zika, 181 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,799 who was the very first sexual assault victim in Sacramento, 182 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,159 and so I had this image of her. But here 183 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,639 she was standing in front of me. She reached out 184 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,320 to says, Hi, my name is Phyllis, I'm victim number one. Hi, 185 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:25,480 my name is Chris PEEDRETTI I'm victim number ten. And 186 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,279 the impact the numbers kept going up, and it just 187 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,960 it hit me right there and then. But standing there 188 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:34,799 holding Phyllis's hand. It was as if I was reaching 189 00:09:34,919 --> 00:09:38,039 out across time in space. Here was a twenty three 190 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,960 year old woman that I had seen on paper and photographs, 191 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,039 and here I was holding her hand forty something years later, 192 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,600 responsible for giving her and helping her find justice. And 193 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,080 I never promised results, never, But somehow in that case, 194 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,399 something overcame me and I said, Phyllis, I don't know 195 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:55,840 how we're going to do it, but we're going to 196 00:09:55,879 --> 00:09:57,600 make sure that you have a voice in this case. 197 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,240 We're going to make sure that you get justice. If 198 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,000 you read the book, you find out Phyllis's journey, our 199 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,559 journey together. I always think of Phillis quite often, and 200 00:10:06,919 --> 00:10:09,000 that's why a part of the proceeds of this book 201 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:11,480 goes to a nonprofit in Phyllis's name. 202 00:10:12,039 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: Is that something that you've developed over time, Tim is 203 00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:20,279 the idea that you'd never promise family survivors a result, 204 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,200 because you know that lots of things can happen in 205 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,919 a courtroom. 206 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:26,279 Speaker 6: Absolutely, think about it for a moment. You have a 207 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,679 jury of twelve people and I have to convince them 208 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,879 to do something monumental. Imagine getting twelve people and convincing 209 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,639 all twelve of them to have the same thing for 210 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,679 breakfast at the same time. But now I got to 211 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,120 do that beyond a reasonable doubt, to convict somebody of murder, 212 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:42,720 of rape and maybe even sentenced them to death. It 213 00:10:42,799 --> 00:10:46,399 is very difficult, more difficult than people can imagine, and 214 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,039 so I never make any promises because you never know 215 00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:51,519 what's going to happen. All I tell them is I'm 216 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,879 going to work hard, and you're never going to find 217 00:10:53,879 --> 00:10:56,120 another person that is going to work harder than me 218 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,879 to find you justice. But for some reason, in that moment, 219 00:10:59,039 --> 00:11:01,600 looking in Phyllis's eyes and how long she had waited 220 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,960 for justice, it just overcame me. Something overcame me, and 221 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,720 I just I said, we're going to make sure that 222 00:11:06,759 --> 00:11:08,600 you get justice. I don't know what it was, and 223 00:11:08,639 --> 00:11:10,559 true to our word, when you read the book, you'll 224 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,399 find out how we went about doing it. 225 00:11:12,919 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: One of the things that I particularly was impacted by 226 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,080 it is the fact that you made sure that all 227 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,279 of the victims, including the ones that were uncharged, the 228 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:25,879 ones whose statutes of limitations were up already, You made 229 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:29,519 sure that those victims got justice as well. And I 230 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,080 really just cannot applaud you enough for that. Can you 231 00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:37,039 talk a little bit about why there were sixty five 232 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:40,919 different victims who ultimately their cases could not be brought 233 00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:42,639 into court. Talk to anybody who doesn't know about the 234 00:11:42,639 --> 00:11:45,320 statute of limitations issue within the GSK case. 235 00:11:45,759 --> 00:11:48,039 Speaker 6: So, the statute of limitation is the period of time 236 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,960 that a prosecutor is allowed to charge a case. Right, 237 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:53,960 so for certain crimes that are life crimes, like murder, 238 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,799 you can be sentenced to life in prison, and so 239 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,840 there's no statue limitations. There's no amount of time that 240 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,399 can go by before I can file cases. But in 241 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,679 the nineteen seventies, rape had a three year statue limitation, 242 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:08,320 which means from the time that the crime occurred is 243 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,159 the time that we find out that this person committed 244 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:14,039 this rate, I only have three years to charge that person. 245 00:12:14,159 --> 00:12:16,519 And if those three years came in god, I was 246 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,720 precluded from filing charges and giving justice to that victim. 247 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,480 It's changed somewhat since then, but it was a real 248 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,039 hurdle in the case. And so we had all these 249 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,960 rape cases in Sacramento, in Contra Costa, in Santislaw, in 250 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,600 the Bay Area where we could not file charges on it. 251 00:12:32,799 --> 00:12:34,919 The fact of the matters. A lot of those cases, 252 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,080 when the statue ran, the police threw away the forensic evidence, 253 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,039 the DNA evidence, and now I'm losing my mind trying 254 00:12:42,039 --> 00:12:43,840 to figure out how we're going to solve this case. 255 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,279 So we ended up finding a way to charge some 256 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:49,759 of those cases, but the vast majority, like Phyllis, we 257 00:12:49,879 --> 00:12:52,600 could not charge your case. And if you can't charge 258 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,720 the case, they don't get to stand up in court 259 00:12:54,759 --> 00:12:57,600 and speak. They don't get to hear the defendant admit 260 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,399 that he committed that crime. And so when we ended 261 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,480 up near the end of the case, Phillis and Chris 262 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:06,200 and all those victims such as Jane, they were at 263 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,279 the forefront of our minds. And it wasn't just me, 264 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,120 it was the other prosecutors on the case. So we 265 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,399 were determined to find a way to get them justice 266 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:17,000 and give them a voice. And at one point in 267 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:19,559 the case, and I talk about it, after court, one day, 268 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:21,799 a number of the victims asked to meet with us, 269 00:13:21,799 --> 00:13:24,600 and we were in this room at the Sacramento Ya's office, 270 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,159 and here they were, all these victims, those that were 271 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,240 charging Uncharge, sitting there, and they spoke up and they 272 00:13:30,279 --> 00:13:32,840 found their voice. They wanted to make sure that we, 273 00:13:32,879 --> 00:13:35,720 as the prosecutors, would not forget them, and I told 274 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:38,159 them that we wouldn't. We held true to our word, 275 00:13:38,759 --> 00:13:40,200 and I talk about that in the book. 276 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: How does it work ten when you have so many 277 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:48,879 different areas of jurisdiction? Justin DeAngelo committed horrific crimes almost 278 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,440 all up and down the entire California coast. 279 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 5: So you end up with all of these different. 280 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:58,159 Speaker 2: Localities and all of these different prosecutors. How does that 281 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,919 work it logistically? It sounds incredibly complicated to charge someone 282 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,000 for crimes that are committed in all these multiple jurisdictions. 283 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,159 Speaker 6: I'll talk first about the legality of it, and then 284 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,679 I'll talk about the practicality of it. In terms of 285 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,039 the politics. The legality of it is a number. There 286 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:17,360 was a case number of years ago, people versus al Kala. 287 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,120 This was the dating game serial killer who was on 288 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,879 the dating game and he killed multiple people, including little girls, 289 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,759 in Orange County in LA. Eventually, they tried all those 290 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,840 cases in one county in Orange County, and that case 291 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:33,720 got challenged up all the way to the California Supreme Corporate. 292 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,399 There's a statute in California. That allows us to take 293 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:39,879 cases from different jurisdictions and combine them in one little case, 294 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,039 especially when you're dealing with a serial killer. That's the 295 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,159 legality of it. The practicality of it is this, he 296 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,519 committed his crimes in eleven different counties. We Sacramento had 297 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,919 his body in our county jail. And so now you 298 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,759 get into the political side of it. Back then, I 299 00:14:55,879 --> 00:14:58,879 was aligned deputy. I was a runt, a soldier on 300 00:14:58,919 --> 00:15:01,080 the front lines in the trend right, and I would 301 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,679 look up at the elected das, who, at the end 302 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:06,480 of the day are also elected officials and politicians with 303 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,320 their own issues right, and their own jurisdictions and their 304 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,000 own constituents. And so there was a fight that I 305 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,200 detail in the case about what jurisdiction would ultimately try 306 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,120 the case. Would it be Sacramento, would it be Santa 307 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,559 Barbara vintur would it be Orange County? Who would try 308 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:26,559 the case? And all the machinations, the Machavelian the political 309 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,679 moves that came with that, because you have different elected 310 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,080 officials that may want this high profile case tried in 311 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,879 their county, then they get more control over and they 312 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,000 get more publicity that's just the reality of it. If 313 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,759 we dealt with that mean I detail that in the book, 314 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,399 but I will say that the line deputies, the soldiers, 315 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,279 like myself and the other prosecutors from the sixth County, 316 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:52,679 we got along marvelously. We worked together cohesively. But there 317 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,480 was conflict, there was drama, there was the politics of 318 00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:58,960 it at the upper echelon. I used to look at 319 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,720 that and I never want wanted to be a part 320 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,480 of that. Well, and behold, seven years later, I am 321 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:06,440 the elected DA of Sacramento and I've had to navigate 322 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,200 that on a greater scale. So it's interesting how life 323 00:16:09,279 --> 00:16:10,240 comes full circle. 324 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 3: Take a couple of minutes and talk to us about 325 00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:18,200 victims impact statements and their importance in the criminal justice system, 326 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,039 because I think for some victims it is the only 327 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,120 way to be heard is giving that victims impact statements. 328 00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:28,039 Talk to us about what that ultimately looks like. And 329 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,200 then what's the process of it. Do you have to 330 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,720 approve the statements before they're read in court? Do the 331 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,519 survivors just have free reign to talk about what they 332 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,399 want to talk about? 333 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 6: First of all, in my opinion, other than the conviction 334 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,639 and the sentencing, of a defendant. The next most important 335 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:47,720 thing is sometimes even more important, are the impact statements 336 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,200 to the victims. It is their opportunity to be able 337 00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:53,720 to seize back the control and the power. You're a 338 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:56,159 victim of a vitent crime. You've had the very fabric 339 00:16:56,159 --> 00:16:58,759 and the tapestry of your life ripped apart, and here's 340 00:16:58,799 --> 00:17:01,600 the opportunity to regain that strength and power. And I 341 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:04,720 remember I had two little girls who were sexually assaulted. 342 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,200 They were six years old and eight years old. They 343 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,640 were sisters by their biological father. And I remember them testifying, 344 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,200 and I remember the impact statement they read. It will 345 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,039 always resonate with me, and I think the same way 346 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,160 of victims, and I always want to make sure that 347 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,920 they have that time and that space to be able 348 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,759 to come into court before the person that did this 349 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,359 to them or to their loved one and stand them 350 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,519 and look them in the eye, and to be able 351 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,599 to force that person to hear the impact that it 352 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,359 had on them, their family, and their lives and on society. 353 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:37,640 To me, it is one of the most beautiful and 354 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:40,720 powerful moments in our criminal justice system. Now, how it 355 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:43,839 works is we'll work with the victims ahead of time, 356 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:47,119 and give them certain guidelines. Obviously there are certain rules. 357 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,440 Judges don't allow people to go in there and curse 358 00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:52,880 and make threats, And we provide some guidance along with 359 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,359 our advocates for them to write it, and oftentimes after 360 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,920 they write it, as a prosecutor, I'll review it to 361 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,960 make sure that it doesn't violate that. If it does 362 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,359 for some reason, I'll have a very respectful conversation with 363 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,519 them in regards to But sometimes the emotion takes over 364 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:11,799 in the moment. In this particular case, you can imagine 365 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:14,519 the number of impact statements that are read from all 366 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,640 different counties. Yeah, but we planned them precisely, and this 367 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:20,839 happened in the middle of COVID. 368 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 5: I remember this. 369 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, I remember that. I know, Kristen, And 370 00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:28,480 I mean it's five years ago. Five years has passed 371 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,359 since COVID since what is it? A one hundred year 372 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,200 worldwide pandemic. And I talk about that in the book. 373 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 6: You had to get your temperature measured when you walk 374 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:38,200 into it. Do you remember that? 375 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 5: Yeah? 376 00:18:38,839 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I remember how far apart everybody was seated. 377 00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:46,039 We watched it online, but I remember I was so 378 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,920 shocked how much distance physical distance there was required because 379 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,599 they were trying not to spread COVID anymore than it 380 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,839 was already impacting the community. 381 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,279 Speaker 6: Do you remember the first time either of you ever 382 00:18:57,319 --> 00:18:59,720 heard the words social distancing? 383 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 5: I had something to do with that, Well. 384 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 6: What is social distancing? And I immediately looked it up 385 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,960 online like six feet apart? And so we're thinking, how 386 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,359 are you going to find a courtroom that can fit 387 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,920 two hundred people six feet apart? Right, So we went 388 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,400 through that whole process and so on the GSK case 389 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:21,240 go and stay killed. We had to plan out the 390 00:19:21,279 --> 00:19:24,480 impact statements. This day is going to be the Sacramento crimes, 391 00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:26,759 This day is going to be all the other sexual 392 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:29,599 sought crimes, This day is Orange County and toilarry this. 393 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,039 So we mapped it out as a crescendo leading up 394 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,960 from Monday all the way through Friday, which was when 395 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,200 he was going to receive his sentence in this massive barroom, 396 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:41,640 and the setup on that and how that was going 397 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,359 to set up. And I had beforehand a little bit 398 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,559 of inkling that he was going to say something, that 399 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,240 D'Angelo was going to get up and say something. We 400 00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:51,680 also had to deal with the security issues with that 401 00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:54,759 what he was going to do and just the logistics 402 00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:57,880 of that. But to me, the most powerful part and 403 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,119 I talk about and I read, write or restate some 404 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,039 of the impacts game is from Jane from Chris from 405 00:20:04,079 --> 00:20:05,599 Gay because it was so powerful. 406 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 407 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,200 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 408 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,160 mindover Murder. 409 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: I know that we want people to read the book, 410 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:21,400 but I really would love it if you could tell 411 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,559 me about how you forced the issue on making him 412 00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:28,599 wear a clear faith shield, because that, to me, I 413 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,680 loved you for that when you said here's why I 414 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,279 want him to wear a clear face shield. That's one 415 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:36,079 of the things that made me cry in the book. 416 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,839 Speaker 6: So it's now June of twenty twenty two and a 417 00:20:39,839 --> 00:20:43,440 half months after COVID started. In terms of the shutdown, right, 418 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,839 he can't even go to the park, you can't go up. 419 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,640 Businesses are shutting down, Schools in many parts of the 420 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,160 country were shutting down, or we were on zoom. Right, 421 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,519 the whole world was turned upside down. And here I 422 00:20:53,559 --> 00:20:55,599 am trying to think of how to go to court 423 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,039 and do this the way I looked at it and 424 00:20:58,079 --> 00:21:00,359 I was having a dream one night thinking of about it, 425 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,640 and my nightmare was when Joseph D'Angelo committed his crimes, 426 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:07,920 he wore a mask. Yes, the badge in the uniform 427 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,759 was nothing but a mask. When his family, his kids, 428 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,359 his wife, they were nothing but a mask. His life 429 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,039 as a retired mechanic after he got fired was nothing 430 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,839 but a mask. And when he came to court he 431 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,799 was laid out in his wheelchair looking back, mouthed a gate, 432 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,079 pretending to be an invalid. That was a mask. So 433 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,960 I wanted to make sure that when he came to 434 00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:31,000 court and the victims finally saw him, that he wouldn't 435 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,680 be able to hide behind a mask. So I decided 436 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,880 to go on Amazon and buy one of those clear 437 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,799 face shields, and then I set it up in court, 438 00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:41,440 you know, in a discussion with the judge, to get 439 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,200 the judge and the defense attorney to buy into forcing 440 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:46,640 to wear this face shield. And I talked about that 441 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:49,400 in the book. The key part was, if you've ever 442 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,519 been in court, usually the audience is sitting here, and 443 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:54,440 then in front of that you have the defendant with 444 00:21:54,519 --> 00:21:57,039 his back to the jury and to the audio, back 445 00:21:57,039 --> 00:21:59,039 to the audience and the judge up here, and I 446 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,559 didn't want D'Angelo to have his profile to the victims, 447 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,119 the survivor and the audience, and then to have his 448 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,160 attorney sit there and block so we can't even see him. 449 00:22:09,319 --> 00:22:12,160 And so I got early to the courtroom at the 450 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,920 sax State Ballroom and I set up the table in 451 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,960 a way where he had to face the audience with 452 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,400 his face shield on. And I had to set that up. 453 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,039 But we ran into a little problem along the way, 454 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,480 and in the book I talk about how we overcame 455 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:27,599 that problem. You go back and you watch the video, 456 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:30,359 you'll find out that we did, in fact overcome that problem. 457 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:32,599 That he did have to sit there, that he did 458 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,480 have to wear the face shield that was clear, and 459 00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:36,920 that he did have to look at his victims and 460 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,839 survivors in the face. But I go and I talk 461 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,640 about that in the book, and to me, it was 462 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,119 one of my proudest moments as an attorney. 463 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: Do that I'm flashing back to those moments. What was 464 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,680 going on with DiAngelo and him flopping around like some 465 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,640 sort of invalid It was ludicrous from what we'd read, 466 00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:58,319 and if I'm talking to Paul Holes and others, he 467 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,319 was supposedly writing his motorcycle days before his arrest, and 468 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,720 was a perfectly healthy, physically active man. And then he 469 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,079 shows up in the courtroom in a wheelchair looking like 470 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,720 he's on death's door. What was going on there? 471 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 6: So first thing, sometimes people may not have heard this, 472 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,519 but if you go back and you look at his 473 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,440 booking photo right that, you see he's got red on 474 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,720 the top of his head. That's blood because when they 475 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:26,319 put him into the booking cell, he ran put his 476 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,640 head down and he ran it into the wall, Okay, 477 00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:30,720 and that's why you see the red up on the 478 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,400 top there. And so they put a camera inside his cell. 479 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,920 They put him in one of three cells at the 480 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,799 Sacramento jol that had a camera inside, so I would 481 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:41,799 get videos of in his cell doing things. And what 482 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:44,039 I would say is this. Remember I said that when 483 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:46,759 he committed his crimes, he wore a mask. He was 484 00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:50,680 the master manipulator. His act in the courtroom was nothing 485 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,400 more than a mask to hide his true cell, true 486 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,440 monster behind it. Because I have videos of him literally 487 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,119 walking to his cell with a king like in the 488 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,960 usual suspect walking in with his cane. The moment the 489 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,240 door closes, the king goes down and he's walking in 490 00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:07,279 his circles, he's doing jumping jacks, he's climbing up and down. 491 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:10,480 He's perfectly acting normal. And in fact, I have a 492 00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:13,279 video of him. And people talk about people getting old 493 00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:16,400 and they lose that sense of depravity. I have a 494 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,480 video of him at the age of seventy three and 495 00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:21,279 he's in his jail cell looking out and there's a 496 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:25,119 young female worker in the central pot area and he 497 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,240 begins to masturbate to her. And so you can see 498 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:33,240 that he has not lost his depravity even at the 499 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:36,240 age of seventy three. And everything that we saw in 500 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:39,119 court and in public was nothing but a mask of 501 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,880 a master manipulator. 502 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: So all of that stuff that he was pulling where 503 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,319 he couldn't talk and his voice is barely a whisper 504 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:52,000 and he's flopped over to the side, was he getting 505 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:55,119 coached by his attorneys, and he just decided he was 506 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,880 going to try to look like this diminished old man 507 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,599 instead of the horrible rapist and murderer that he was. 508 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,279 Speaker 6: No his attorneys. I've worked with those public defenders, one 509 00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:07,079 of them is a judge now, and I can tell 510 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,240 you that they didn't coach him. This was all him, 511 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,640 This was him being the master manipulator, This was him 512 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:15,559 having the mask to hide the monster. Right. This is 513 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,759 classic Joseph di'angelo, classic Golden State killer and everything that 514 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:22,240 he's done throughout those entire time spree. 515 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,079 Speaker 3: One of the many things that I love about Jane 516 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:28,920 is that Jade never fails to bring a little something 517 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,640 extra to the conversation, to the table. And at her 518 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:38,200 victim's impact statement, she actually brought in Joe DiAngelo's ex 519 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,519 wife Bonnie. What was it like when DiAngelo saw his 520 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,559 ex wife Bonnie in that courtroom? 521 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 6: So just a point of clarification, So Bonnie was the 522 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:48,359 ex fiance. 523 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry, okay, Xpansa. 524 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 6: But Bonnie was the ex fiance and she called off 525 00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:57,559 the engagement because she saw how manipulative he was. And 526 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,920 I see her as a victim of the Angelo as well. 527 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,920 Out and with Jane, Jane always brings something extra, right, 528 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,559 She's fire and brimstone. She is like this dynamite, this 529 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,680 force of nature. And so she had her impact statement 530 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,799 and she had stunt it to us and I read 531 00:26:12,839 --> 00:26:16,319 it and it had nothing at all in there about Bonnie. 532 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 5: Nothing, But I. 533 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 6: Always knew that with Jane. There was something a little extra, 534 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,920 and that's what I love about Jane. So I'm sitting 535 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,920 there and all of a sudden, she says, and I 536 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:28,319 brought somebody with me. I brought Bonnie. She wanted to 537 00:26:28,319 --> 00:26:32,599 get a reaction from him, right and the moment she 538 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,359 brought Bonnie up there and the moment she said her name. 539 00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:38,759 I am staring intently, not more than six feet away 540 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:41,680 from Joseph di'angelo, and he's got his mask on, but 541 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:44,559 I could see his chests, I could see his throat. 542 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,680 He took a big gulp, his breathing got shallow, and 543 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,599 it was going faster. So I knew that it had 544 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,240 an impact on him, that she brought it. And he 545 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,960 just looked straight ahead, no eye contact, no movement, nothing, 546 00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:00,119 but I could tell that he was feeling it. And 547 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,400 that moment that he saw her for the first time 548 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,200 to the day that forty plus years ago that she 549 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:06,799 got rid of him and kicked him to the curb, 550 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,319 and rightfully to hear she was. Bonnie was there and 551 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,319 he wouldn't look, but I could tell that he had 552 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,400 an affected And after court that day, I was walking 553 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,720 back to the office and I happened to see Jane 554 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,319 and Bonnie outside. He came over. We stopped and we 555 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,279 chat and I told him that story about that reaction 556 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,480 that I saw, And I love Jane and I love 557 00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:27,440 the work that you know, Bonnie does with Phyllis's Garden 558 00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:31,119 as well. Two amazing ladies that have truly found their 559 00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:32,839 voices and continue to do so. 560 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,519 Speaker 2: Isn't there a strange story in one of those incidents 561 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:43,279 where de Angelos was in another room and he's whimpering 562 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,799 and crying and mumbling to himself, And wasn't he saying 563 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,720 Bonnie's name at one point? 564 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 6: Yes, So it was a sexual assault that happened in Davis, California. 565 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,400 And in that particular incident, after the sexual assault, he's 566 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,279 nearby and he's crying and whimpering to himself and he 567 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:03,839 talks about And that's why when we found Joseph DiAngelo, 568 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,599 we did genetic gealogy, built this massive family tree. The 569 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,319 investigators in our office, in collaboration with Paul Hose, we 570 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,119 had to narrow down the list of suspects and we 571 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,839 narrowed it down to about three people. And part of 572 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,200 the sort of analysis of D'Angelo was we found that 573 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:21,799 he was at one point engaged to a Bonnie, and 574 00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:24,599 so that was just another piece in the puzzle. And 575 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,240 over the years, some people have speculated that he committed 576 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,240 his crimes because of Bonnie, and I want to disavow 577 00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:32,559 and disprove of that that was not the case. The 578 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,240 crimes of Joseph DiAngelo and the Golden State career are 579 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,000 his crimes and his choices alone, and they should never 580 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,200 be put at the feet of anybody, especially somebody like Bonnie, who, 581 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,599 in my opinion, is a survivor herself of Joseph DiAngelo. 582 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,960 And so I've said that in the book, I've said 583 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,920 it before and I'll continue to say that. But there 584 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,000 was that little nugget there as we were retracing and 585 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,400 really developing the timeline of Joseph Diangel's. 586 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,839 Speaker 2: Life, talk to us about the investigative genetic genealogy, because 587 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,880 this is one of the first and certainly at that point, 588 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,480 the highest profile case using this new technology. How was 589 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:11,559 it introduced, What did you think? How did that process unfold? 590 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 6: So Paul Holes came up with the idea based upon 591 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,160 briefing that he received on another case where there was 592 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,400 a young child that had been abandoned by her perpetrator. 593 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200 Her molester, who claimed to be her father but in 594 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,640 fact was not her father, had basically killed her mother 595 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,519 and kidnapped her. And so we used genetic genealogy in 596 00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:35,359 that case to find her identity. So when Paul heard 597 00:29:35,359 --> 00:29:37,680 about that case, he came up with the idea, let's 598 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,559 see what we can do here about using genetic genealogy, 599 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,480 And so genetic genealogy is what we do on twenty 600 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:47,000 three and meters ancestry dot com. You take a BUCO swab, 601 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:50,039 you send it to the company, They take your DNA, 602 00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:52,720 they converted into what we call a SNIP profile or 603 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:57,440 single nucleotide polymorphism profile that measures a million areas in 604 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,039 your chromosome. And the more areas of that c that 605 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,799 you haven't commo some of the als, the more closely 606 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:05,039 related you are. So in this case, we needed some 607 00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:08,119 DNA to be able to create the SNIP profile uploaded 608 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,599 to a database, and we ended up getting and I 609 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,640 talk about that in the book how you Know. There 610 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,039 was a lot of struggles in terms of getting it, 611 00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:18,200 but we were able to get a sample from a 612 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:21,960 second rate kit. In Charlene Smith's rape and murder out 613 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,079 of Ventura, County, all homes came to her office, did 614 00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:29,000 the presentation. We had help from the FBI, from Barbara 615 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:32,680 ray Ventnor, but then from two different people in our office, 616 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,200 an investigator and an investigative assistant, Kirk Campbell Monica Jakowski. 617 00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:40,359 So we created this family tree that we had a 618 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,559 distant relative connected to D'Angel. But then you have to 619 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:46,319 build this family tree. Okay, who were their parents, who 620 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:49,000 are their assumings, the grandparents, the uncles and aunties, go 621 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:51,240 up to the common ancestor and build it down. So 622 00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:53,319 we had a thousand plus names on this and then 623 00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:55,799 you had to narrow it down. Who was white, who 624 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,359 was male, Who was a police officer, who was the military, 625 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,880 who lived in this area. We narrowed it down to 626 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,119 three people or so. And then we ended up collecting 627 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,279 their trash that they put out, and the last item 628 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,279 we tested because we dumped it in aligned garbage truck. 629 00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:13,440 The last item was a tissue, and that last item 630 00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:16,920 tested positive to all the great victims in SoCal and 631 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,039 the one in Coco. 632 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:20,119 Speaker 3: Unbelievable. 633 00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 2: Were there people in the office so on the team 634 00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:26,839 that said this is insane and will never work, or 635 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,200 was everybody committed to it, saying it's worth a shot. 636 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,119 Speaker 6: I can tell you that from the Sacramento team, the 637 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,839 genealogy team that had the Sacramento investigators and Monica and Kirk, 638 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,920 and then with Paul Barbaray Vettner and the FBI, they 639 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,160 were confident that this was going to solve it. They 640 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,240 were confident. There may have been other people in other 641 00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:50,720 offices weren't as confident, but we were confident that this 642 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,640 was going to solve it. And then it was this 643 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:55,759 good old detective work, right, gumshoe detective work in terms 644 00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:59,200 of narrowing it down and then following him around for days. 645 00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:01,400 And Paul falk about it in his book where he 646 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:04,799 drove up to Deandrew's house and sat actor and debated 647 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:06,759 what he was going to do. I'm glad he didn't 648 00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:08,079 go in, but. 649 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,279 Speaker 5: He thought about it. 650 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 6: All thought about it. Paul thought about it, but the 651 00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,759 inspiration was Paul. He came up with the idea, and 652 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:17,960 then a bunch of us then put in the work 653 00:32:18,119 --> 00:32:20,720 and solve the case. And then after he was caught, 654 00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:23,480 we then had to go through the process of prosecuting him. 655 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,240 And that is something that has never been talked about before. 656 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,559 Speaker 3: I'm curious. Part of my other job, my day job, 657 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:33,960 is I teach writing to teenagers, and so I'm always 658 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,640 curious about your research and writing process so that I 659 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,720 can prove to kids the books are not born right 660 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,599 out of somebody's head. There's a process. So can you 661 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,279 tell us a little bit about your research and writing process, 662 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,119 especially because this is a huge book, it covers so much, 663 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:52,039 talk to us a little bit about your research and 664 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:52,799 writing process. 665 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 6: I have to tell you that today, when I opened 666 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,319 the boxing and held in my hand the book for 667 00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:00,640 the first time, I got a little bit of emotional 668 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:03,640 because I was an immigrant and a refugee my parents 669 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,599 and I talk about in the book escaped on a 670 00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:07,400 fishing boat, and when I came to this country, I 671 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,440 couldn't speak and understand a single word of English. I 672 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:13,240 learned how to speak English by watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. 673 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,599 Twenty years later, graduated right Bugs Bunny from law school, 674 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:20,440 and I got to say that I never thought that 675 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:22,880 I would be a lawyer, never thought i'd be a prosecutor, 676 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,759 never thought i'd be the elected DA and I certainly 677 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:29,400 never envisioned becoming a published author of a book. And 678 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,839 I've never written a book before. So the process here 679 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,960 with Third State Books and Third State Books is an 680 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,880 independent publishing company and they're providing Asian Americans a voice 681 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,920 in the publishing world. What I did was I wrote 682 00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,519 a very detail outline about thirty pages of the chapters 683 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:48,640 of the book, and then every day I'd wake up 684 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,720 at five o'clock in the morning and spend two hours 685 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:53,480 writing it. And then I'd send you know what I 686 00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:56,000 had when I had about half a chapter, a chapter 687 00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:58,640 to my editor in New York, Charles Kim. He would 688 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,400 review it, he would edit it for grammar structure, sent 689 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,279 it to me, and that process will go on, and 690 00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:05,359 then we kept building it up and I wrote the 691 00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:06,759 book in about seven months. 692 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:11,119 Speaker 5: That's actually remarkably fa wow, Holy. 693 00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 6: How Dovin Munson doing it. The way I structure the 694 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,960 book is there's oftentimes the A, the B and the 695 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,920 C story. So if you look at the Titanic, right, 696 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,639 and I study movies and I study like other books, 697 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,880 and I'm constantly telling stories in the courtroom. In the Titanic, 698 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,599 you have the A story, which is the search for 699 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,400 the rose diamond. The B story is the love story 700 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,880 between Leo and Kate, and the C story is the 701 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,639 sinking of the Titanic. So in this sense, the A 702 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,440 story is the investigation, the capture, and the prosecution of GSK. 703 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,280 The B stories my story, and the C story is 704 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,360 the stories of the survivors and how they found their voices. 705 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,719 And the struggle that I had was his crimes were 706 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,840 committed forty years ago, so I had to talk about 707 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,440 something that happened forty years ago and then jump forward 708 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,800 in time and then go back, and then the timelines 709 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,400 begin to merge. So that was an aspect of the 710 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,760 book that was challenging to cover something with such a 711 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:02,559 big scope. 712 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,199 Speaker 3: It works beautifully, it says we said off air, I 713 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,440 read a lot of this stuff. Our listeners know that 714 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,039 I spend most of my time delving into true crime. 715 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,719 This is I would dare to say. It is masterfully 716 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,199 put together. I didn't have a single problem following it. 717 00:35:18,199 --> 00:35:22,360 It is so thoughtfully threaded and braided together. It's beautiful. 718 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,840 For a first work, this is a worthy effort. It's 719 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,519 really fantastic, and I think it's just one of the 720 00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:30,880 best things that I have read recently inside the true 721 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,119 crime space. Kudos to you. This is amazing. 722 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,079 Speaker 6: Oh thank you thank those are very kind words. I'm 723 00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:39,039 very appreciative of that. 724 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: How do you feel like you managed to balance writing 725 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,039 in your legal career? Because two hours of writing in 726 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:46,920 the morning and then the rest of the day you're 727 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,760 off doing what you do as a DA that had 728 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,719 to have been difficult. 729 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:53,679 Speaker 6: It was challenging. I have a great team here, So 730 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,079 we have, like I said, almost one hundred and ninety lawyers, 731 00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:59,320 five hundred employees, the second largest office in northern California. 732 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,760 We run our crime lab, which is unique. We're only 733 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,880 one of four in the state of California. But I 734 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,280 have a great executive team. I have a great number 735 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,880 two that runs the day to day operation. So last 736 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,320 year I probably attended about four hundred community events in 737 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,119 a year, and so oftentimes it's me being out there 738 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:18,519 in the community. But I carved aside two hours every 739 00:36:18,519 --> 00:36:21,400 morning to really nail down and ride it and just 740 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,280 keep that process going, and then you build this momentum. 741 00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:26,360 It's just that process of doing it. You have a 742 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,800 good outline and then you just stick to it. I mean, 743 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,760 I encourage anybody who's thinking about being an Austin jump 744 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,039 both feed in and do it. Don't think about oh 745 00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:35,639 I want to try. No, you either do it or 746 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:37,559 you don't do it. So jump in and maybe it 747 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:39,480 works for you, maybe it doesn't. You got to jump 748 00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,639 two feet in all the way in and swim across 749 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,360 the ocean. I love it. I love it. 750 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,119 Speaker 3: That is absolutely fantastic. So tell our listeners where they 751 00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:51,000 can find. 752 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 6: Your book, The People versus the Golden State Killer. It's 753 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,719 going to be released on November eleventh. Right now, they 754 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,119 can go on nho dot org. That's tea hi e 755 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,800 n ho dot org. When they go on there, they'll 756 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,000 be able to be connected to a local bookstore. So 757 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:12,280 rather than buying it on from a big retailer or Amazon, 758 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,599 let's support our small local bookstores and our small businesses. 759 00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:18,280 So if you go on Tinho t Hi n ho 760 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,480 dot org, you'll be able to pre order the book 761 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:22,840 now comes out on November the eleven, But if you 762 00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:25,800 order it now, what will happen is you'll probably get 763 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,480 your book about a week before that. I'm going on 764 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:32,960 book tours in Houston, in Saint Louis and Seattle, in 765 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,599 La Irvine and Orange County, in Santa Barbara, in San Francisco, 766 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:40,320 and of course Sacramento. We have a book signing in 767 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,039 Sacramento at the main Library in November twelfth. I think 768 00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:45,800 we have about two hundred and seventy people already RSVP, 769 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,400 and we're about a month out and love to see 770 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,559 people on the book tour, but please pre order to 771 00:37:50,639 --> 00:37:52,400 support our local bookstores. 772 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, we love the local bookstore angle because it's very 773 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,679 important to both of us that we support local bookstores 774 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,320 and local businesses. And we've ordered plenty of books online, 775 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,039 both of us, but my strong preference is to buy local, 776 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:10,719 and I think it's really important for people around the 777 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,440 country to buy this book, read it, and enjoy it. 778 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:14,119 Speaker 6: We have the. 779 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,559 Speaker 2: Uncorrected proof advanced reader copies, which are pretty impressive. I 780 00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:22,440 can't wait to see the actual book. And November eleventh 781 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,320 is my birthday. On top of everything. 782 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,199 Speaker 6: Else, even better, even better, And the other thing I 783 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,719 want to mention and happy birthday to you there, Bill. 784 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,840 But the other thing is a portion of the proceeds 785 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,760 is going to go to fund Phyllis's Garden, which is 786 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,239 a nonprofit started by several of the survivors. So I'm 787 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,960 a big supporter of theirs, and we want to be 788 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,280 able to support survivors. 789 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 2: All in all, do you feel that justice was done 790 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,719 for the GSK victims and survivors. 791 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,119 Speaker 6: Absolutely, to bring this case to its completion in the 792 00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:56,559 middle of COVID and allow all the survivors and all 793 00:38:56,599 --> 00:39:00,000 the victims' families to have an impact statement and avoid 794 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:03,360 to make sure that they hear that he is admitting 795 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,280 to these crimes. I think it's hugely important, and I 796 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,119 think we were able to obtain a measure of justice 797 00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:12,320 and a measure of closure for all the victims. And 798 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,760 I think you will get that sense when you talk 799 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,679 to the survivors and when you read the book, because 800 00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:20,000 at the end of the day, it's all about them. 801 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,519 Speaker 3: The book is The People Versus the Golden State Killer 802 00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:27,960 by Tinhoe, the District Attorney of Sacramento. Tin thank you 803 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:30,760 for joining us today. We have really appreciated talking to you. 804 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 6: Thank you so much. 805 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,679 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 806 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,360 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 807 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 6: We'll see you next time. 808 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 809 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,280 Another Dog Productions. 810 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,159 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 811 00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by i'm La Arnoir. 812 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:03,639 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 813 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,079 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 814 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,199 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 815 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 816 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,719 Murders on Facebook. 817 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,519 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 818 00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:21,159 Bill Thomas. Five six. 819 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind over Murder.